Do not take them as friends verses
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Description: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
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Topic: Do not take them as friends verses
Posted By: believer
Subject: Do not take them as friends verses
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 7:18am
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"It quite specifically says "friends" in every authoritative translation I have seen; and it says nothing at all about "matters of faith and guidance". The Pooya/Ali commentary says, "A believer, in order to keep himself safe from the influence of falsehood, must avoid the company of disbelievers." I'm sorry, SA, but the meaning of this verse is quite clear. You can't make it mean whatever you want it to mean."
Yes any parent Christian, Jew, Muslim would not want their children to "hangout" with satan worshippers, hypocrites that twist their faith, etc.
My children went to a public school and actually met up and befriended wiccans!! I tell you I spent many a worried night. Luckily my children and I have always had a very open dialoque and we were able to work through the whole thing- they remained Christian and eventually the wiccan friends fell away.
Disbelievers of what? This specifically means belief in God. What other context could it possibly have? Belief in God is a matter of faith, pure and simple. There is no other meaning here.
If you look elsewhere in The Quran it does not forbid Muslims from associating with or being friends with non-Muslims. The Prophet's most beloved uncle who raised him was not a Muslim. Most of the early followers of Islam had family members who were not Muslims. Instead of telling Muslims to stay away from their family the Quran tells Muslims to honor their parents, whatever their faith.
When the early Muslims were being persecuted and killed The Prophet sent them to King Negus in Abyssinia, a Christian ruler, for protection. He sent them there because King Negus was known for being just and truthful. Twice the Muslims turned to King Negus for protection, and both times they were welcome in the kingdom and lived in peace.
This was clearly a case where the Muslims sought out a Christian as a protector, but one who was known far and wide as a king who practiced justice and truthfulness. If it had been forbidden by God for Muslims to seek friendship or protection from any Christian or Jew The Prophet Mohammed would never have sent the Muslims to King Negus for protection.
Anyone who knows the basics of Islam knows this part of history, that is why we understand the verse in question.
I have been studying Islam for 4 years and had never heard this story, thank you shasta! I should add studying Islam from Quran and just spatterings of hadith.
I know there still are many Muslims out there that do not understand the verse the same way the Muslims on this forum do, please keep spreading the word. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 9:16am
| Believer, go away.... |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 10:40am
We should never lose the sight of the context and the language of the Qur'an, including the help of the experts in the field. Here is an important point in Note 73 above: "However, as has been made abundantly clear in 60:7-9 (and implied in verse 57 of this surah), this prohibition of a "moral alliance" with non-Muslims does not constitute an injunction against normal, friendly relations with such of them as are well-disposed towards Muslims." May Allah guide us all.
Peace ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 5:49am
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Nobody is talking about children, let alone Satan worshippers or hypocrites. Although I have to say that your concern for your children is overblown. I regard the opportunity for children to meet and interact with others of different faiths as a good thing, a necessary part of the education system. If Islam is the truth, then all you need to do is teach your children to recognize the truth.
Belief in God is a matter of faith, but friendship is not (well, maybe faith of a different kind). It would be tempting to suppose that any reference to "believers" would mark the whole passage as applicable only to matters of faith (e.g., "when you meet the unbelievers, smite the necks [of their faith]..."), but I don't think anyone would buy it.
And yet he did, and yet the verse clearly forbids it. The case you are talking about occurred early in Muhammad's career, when he was still weak and in need of alliances. Sura 5 (which we are discussing) was revealed much later, after Muhammad became strong enough to repudiate those alliances.
Believer was asked to take this discussion to a separate thread, and so he did. Unfortunately, he put it in the "Islam for non-Muslims" section, which is really intended for education, not debate. I don't suppose a moderator could move it?
Exactly. In other words, we can be civil and polite to one another ("normal, friendly relations") but we can never be really friendly. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
believer wrote:Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 9:56am
| Believer was asked to take this discussion to a separate thread, and so he did. Unfortunately, he put it in the "Islam for non-Muslims" section, which is really intended for education, not debate. I don't suppose a moderator could move it? I don't care where he post his views, his appearence is simply annoying to put it nicely. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 2:21pm
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To anyone who thinks the verse prohibits friendship,
Without arrogance and only in the spirt of qualifying the below: I speak and read Arabic. Unlike the second hand information Ron will call authoritative, I don't have it translated/interpreted/read for me, and I didn't learn it as some arabic-illiterate being fed knowledge at the end of the Saudi spoon. In my life, wali is never used for friend. Never. In everyday speech: It is used (if it is used) nowadays to refer to impressive leader type (Sids, Moulays, Grand Imams, etc.) Moulay Idriss the second, who founded Fes and was part of Morocco's first dynasty is an example of someone one would call a wali. A modern example of a wali in this context could be the king as well as the Prime Minister Abbas El Fassi. The word also implies a spiritual guide of sorts, to distinguish from someone who was strictly just a leader. Words that are used to describe friend.love: saHeeb, sadiq, aziz, hub. Again, I have never heard the word wali used in any other context than that of a 'master'-type. I do sympathize with people who have their Quran pre-chewed by the Saudi army of interpreters; they are sure to get the most vitriolic reading out of them. Finally, in practicality - it should be understood that although the jews and christians are not the majority here in Morocco - they are not shunned, antagonized or considered beneath befriending; the story of Andr� Azoulay as a generic starting point for 'wali-like' Jews here and the Village of Hope for Christians. Ron, though at sober times, you seem like good egg. But you certainly have nothing to teach anyone here about Islam - so there is no point in you defending it... in regards to our defense, we'll all be fine without you, thanks. Believer, you seem mean. Either that, you are incapable of sustaining critical thought to grasp what has put before you. In this case, you'd probably rather find yourself the first of the two. ** regarding the above arabic words, I am referring to the trilateral roots of wali, shb, etc. and all of their permutations. *** Ron, at least stop misquoting Burke, esp. since the bogus attribution was pointed out in an earlier post. You can be forgiven for being a lazy, sloppy thinker in a foreign language, but you're not getting a pass in english. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 6:14pm
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Are you seriously suggesting that 5:51 is a warning to Muslims not to take Christians and Jews for "impressive leaders"? 
Yusuf Ali spoke fluent Arabic. So did Marmaduke Picktall. Same with Muhammad Asad. With all due respect, why should I believe you and not those three renowned translators? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 6:38pm
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I think some times we just have to lift our head up, open our eyes and look around. The answers are there. Look at those leaders of Muslim countries who has given themselves up into the protection of none-believers and what is happening in the result. May be its a warning against. May be that's what it means!
Beause as a human, as people even prophet has realations with Christians and Jews, so do many of us. It has to do with what I said above most probably.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 8:39pm
To answer your last question first, Yusuf Ali and the rest of these men have never, and will not, inform me of the meaning of the Quran.
My answer was longer and more nuanced than that. A wali as it should be understood in that particular verse would be a master, a lord, an authority, a spiritual guide - nothing as a simple as just a friend. There is also a conflated meaning with "the governor of a province in an Arab country." The wiki entry for wali (though meandering) has a few of the shades required for an understanding of the word, though I stress that the word is not ambigious in it's daily use here; wali would be a great, religious man who led/taught with Islam, whereas saHb/sdq/aziz are used for friend. The way you want to use wali is as a friend, pal, a confidant; this is a gruesome distortion. Here is a passage which does a better job (than men) to putting this issue to rest
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 8:56pm
I think Jamal has a valid argument! None of these translators' mother tongue was Arabic and another factor these were done in the days of British colonialism! Also the next sign must be read in conjunction with 5:51 to get the conditions of the revelations and why! that also is not one to one the individual friendship cuz the word used is in plural-Auliya! The group of Jews and probably Xtians were the money lenders to the opposing force of idolaters and had vested interest to wish the Muslims loose in the of war of liberation of Makkah! So they could make a killing if the Prophet were to loose! The dictionary gives the following word usage for auliya: helpers/supporters/benefactors/sponsors/friends /close associates/relatives/patrons/protectors/legal guardians/tutors/saints/masters/proprietors/possessors/owners----------- So I have an open question for Ron and our Mr. antagonist the so called believer!!!!!!! What kind of relationship one can have with a moneylender out of above list! The most likely would be as I have high lighted! You can tell me your choice! This constant barrage of asininity of this character has no end oh well then some where else I have asked him look in the mirror and tell us is he a good candidate to be friend these days! When it comes to the money lenders or their agents god help us with these great artists in bait and switch! I don't know about Canada but the Americans have been taken for a ride by the money lenders! And now we have a new Prez coming with Muslim middle name! The propaganda machines are running full bore! The collaboration of the Jews and Xtians did make a mess of the world while trying to rob the Muslim nations! What does that tell you about the sign of the that time and present time that Allah warned the Muslims fourteen century ago! Can't you see the mess in ME with Anglo American auliyaship! The Muslims need that kind of auliyaship like a hole in the head ! You wouldn't believe if I told you that in my business days all of my good friends that we could mutually trust were practitioner of Xmas and we did get along just fine! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 October 2008 at 2:52am
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"Belief in God is a matter of faith, but friendship is not (well, maybe faith of a different kind). It would be tempting to suppose that any reference to "believers" would mark the whole passage as applicable only to matters of faith (e.g., "when you meet the unbelievers, smite the necks [of their faith]..."), but I don't think anyone would buy it."
Then please tell us what "disbelievers" , "non-believers", and "unbelievers" refers to when used in The Quran?
"And yet he did, and yet the verse clearly forbids it. The case you are talking about occurred early in Muhammad's career, when he was still weak and in need of alliances. Sura 5 (which we are discussing) was revealed much later, after Muhammad became strong enough to repudiate those alliances."
Even after The Prophet became strong and was the authority over most of Arabia he entered into treaties and alliances with non-Muslims.
"...this prohibition of a "moral alliance" with non-Muslims does not constitute an injunction against normal, friendly relations with such of them as are well-disposed towards Muslims.
"Exactly. In other words, we can be civil and polite to one another ("normal, friendly relations") but we can never be really friendly."" How do you define "normal, friendly relations"? If you are friends with someone are you not having "normal, friendly relations" with them? Muslim men can marry Christian and Jewish women. What closer relationship between two humans can there be? Unless friendship, love, and trust are not "normal" in the marriage relationships you encounter. I think this is VERY clear:
5:52 Those in whose hearts is a disease - thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.
5:57 O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed). ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 October 2008 at 7:06am
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LOL!! http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59028&FID=7 - Ron Webb - It was an example. I too believe it is good for children to have friends of all faiths. That is why I allowed my children to befriend the wiccans, but I did retain my parental duties. I wrote "I have always had a very open dialoque and we were able to work through the whole thing" meaning we had many a discussion about what the wiccans believed and what each of my cildren believed.
I have 3 children and each have a slightly different view of what their Christian faith is.
Am I understanding correctly that a comman person can not understand the Quran without the help of a scholar?
That is similar to the Catholic church- the priest has to explain the Bible. I have a Lutheran background and have always been taught that GOD's Holy Scripture is for each man to read and understand on their own.
Shasta WE AGREE on something!!! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 29 October 2008 at 10:39am
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Here are some links that are relevant to Muslim and non-Muslim relations. You may like to refer to these to improve clarity.
Does Islam Forbid Befriending Non-Muslims?
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543362 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543362
Socialization with Non-Muslims: Permissible?
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547090 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547090 ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 October 2008 at 1:54pm
that will depend what you mean by common person. If a person is educated and know Arabic language will depend less on being explained vs a person who is not fimiliar with the language and is relying on various translations or interpretations like majority of us, the none Arabs. Remember a translation of Quran is only a translation and not considered as the Quran, which is in Arabic.
The Quran, unlike the OT and NT luckily is in its original revealed language, thus a person regardless of their language background has the chance to hold and look into the original something the people of OT and NT cannot.
It is true in all of us case that a learned person has to explain things to those who know less. Simplest example of that would be you explaining the Bible to your children to make them understand a point. Same with me as I explain the parts of the Quran that I know to my children. There is no differance in that and is different than what we are talking about.
The bottom line is that we do have something to go back to and refer to when we need to know what the original words were, and interpret them more correctly than x,y,and z. Truthfully speaking the same cannot be said in the case of the OT and NT.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 7:37am
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The Old and New Testament are available in their original language and just about every language spoken in the world. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 9:39am
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Thanks Sign Reader and Right for your information and help. It is MUCH appreciated. Thank you.
I don't mean to react, or over react to some things here folks and I am aware that I do. It's not any person. It's just me, how religion, or any religious idea, issue is presented. I'm like a friggin' bull in a china shop some times. I apologise for that. I am trying to understand it and over come it.
God bless
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Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 10:24am
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Assalamu Alaikum and hi everyone,
It is clear from various interpretations that the meaning of Arabic word "wali" has different meanings and its meaning becomes evident depending on the context where it is used.
Translators of the Qur'an have done tremendous job; none of us here seems to have accomplished anything similar to that. Yes, translators are not flawless. However, I am not in a position to comment on their work unless I have achieved at least something comparable along these lines. Until then I should simply strive to improve myself. The language of the Qur'an is unique in many respects; therefore, the entire translation in any other language can never be exactly what Qur'an actually conveys. This aspect reinforces the notion that learning the language of the Qur'an helps a lot to develop its proper understanding. It is undoubtedly the words of Allah, the Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe. May Allah help and guide us to respect it and understand it the right way. The bottom line, as it relates to the topic, is that Muslims are not allowed to compromise their faith at any cost. With that said, they are also expected and encouraged to establish healthy and friendly relations with fellow human beings, neighbors, relatives, family members, including Muslims and non-Muslims. ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 5:06pm
But how close is modern Arabic to the language of the Quran? If Jamal Morelli is accurate in his (modern) translation of "wali", I have to wonder if learning modern Arabic is helpful in understanding Quranic Arabic, or if it might instead lead to misinterpretation. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 6:44pm
OT can be said to exist in its original language, but still remember it has been altered as we have proof of such through its inconsistancies. But NT does not exists in its original form, Jesus's mother tongue was Aramiac. There is no evidence that there is a gospel by Jesus in Aramiac from Jesus' time.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 11:53pm
You just made my heart happy with that, peacemaker. Shukran and Allah y;atik al kheer Now...I am off for fajr... |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 5:21am
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"But how close is modern Arabic to the language of the Quran?"
This is the Arabic still spoken in the Gulf regions of Arabia: Saudi, Kuwait, etc... Also known as formal Arabic. The Arabic spoken in other countries is basically the same, just has local slang mixed in, but all Arabs understand and usually speak and read formal Arabic. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 November 2008 at 6:29am
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Aramaic New Testament:
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/peshitta_interlinear.htm - http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/peshitta_interlinear.htm
Jesus and people of his day spoke Greek:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm - http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/peshitta_interlinear.htm -
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 02 November 2008 at 6:28pm
Jesus spoke Aramaic.
History aside, how do we know from the Scriptures that Christ spoke Aramaic? Simple. In several places He is quoted speaking Aramaic. In St. Matthew�s and St. Mark�s Gospels, some of Christ�s words are rendered in the language the people spoke. �Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?� (Mt 27:46, Mk 15:34), �Talitha cuom� (Mk 8:41), and �Ephphatha� (Mk 7:34) are all Aramaic phrases. Even the word �Abba� which Christ uses often to refer to the Father is the Aramaic word roughly translated as �Daddy.� Incidentally, the Arabic word �Abu� has the same meaning� so �Abu Sulieman� means �Father of Solomon.� God Bless,
Patty
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Posted By: Snow Ranch
Date Posted: 03 November 2008 at 8:31pm
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If one should shun and avoid friendships with those outside his religion, then this in itself runs contrary to: 1) The Will of God -- Treat your neighbor as you would be treated; Love thy neighbor (and even your enemy) as thyself. Here, God teaches that Justice first is found in the kind and gentle heart. 2) Conversions -- No matter what one's religion, it is entirely impossible to acquire new converts, build a religion, extract revenues from the faithful, or do anything as an organized church in the world....without making friends! The whole anti-social thing just doesn't cut it. Christianity, Islam, and Judiasm have grown wildly and, therefore, one could conclude that they did not do so among anti-social streaks. They did take unbelievers as friends at some point. In the end, it is only among friendship, love, and good, open heart that true and lasting conversions are ever secured by any religion. That is always the spark and the seed planted. Stan, the goat shepherd. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 04 November 2008 at 1:13am
So what? Topic: Do not take them as friends verses |