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Quran questions

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Topic: Quran questions
Posted By: jusaskin
Subject: Quran questions
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 8:14pm

Another few basic questions if I may?

It is my understanding that Muhammad received all that is contained in the Quran a little at a time from the angel Gabriel, but not knowing how to read or write he would memorized what was told to him. Somewhere, I remember reading that he would later have the messages written down on various objects such as leaves, leather, bark, etc. and eventually it was all compiled into the Quran according to an order specified by Gabriel. This all took place over a period of 23 years.

Does anyone know the time span between Muhammad receiving the last message and the completion of the Quran in book form?

Also I read that what we refer to as "verse" is really "ayat" and means "signs". I see the term "signs" throughout the various English translation of the Quran, but am not sure I understand the proper meaning.  Merriam-Webster dictionary gives these synonyms for "sign" .... mark, token, note and symptom; whereas the American Heritage dictionary's thesaurus lists these helpful meanings:
1. something that signals the existence of something else (indication, evidence, etc)
2. evidence of passage along a path or course (track, trail, etc)
3. bodily movement used to convey meaning (gesture, nod, etc)
4. evidence of a thing that has disappeared (relic, trace, etc)
5. a conventional mark used in a writing system (symbol, character, etc)
6. to register in or as if in a book (catalogue, index, etc)
7. to affix one's signature to ( autograph, inscribe, etc)
8. to make bodily motions to augment or replace spoken expression (motion, indicate, etc)
9. to mark with an indication of official sanction (seal, validate, etc)
10. to communicate by means of such devices as lights or signs (semaphore, flag, etc)

Would someone care to explain what the term "sign" means, as used in the Quran?



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joe



Replies:
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 1:30am
 
Does anyone know the time span between Muhammad receiving the last message and the completion of the Quran in book form?

I guess it to be by 632 - 634  i.e during the khalifate of AbuBakr RA.

As you said  the ayat revealed , were written by scribes. Allah swt  informed the Holy Last Messenger {Pbuh} through  Jibreel AS to place some ayaah in some particular order according to their subject matter.  Thus the messenger of Allah swt,  on receiving such instructions would instruct the scribe to write in that prescribed order.  In addition, a large number of the Holy Companions of the Prophet, would memorize the Holy Qur�an or part of the Holy Qur�an.  Whenever the Holy  Messenger {Pbuh} them of the new revelation they would memorize that portion of Holy Qur�an.  In addition they would memorize in the order told them 

By then most of the  Companions {May Allah be pleased with them } had memorized Holy Qur�an by the time of  the last revelation.  Though some of them who could write and did write the entire    Holy  Qur�an on parchments of tree bark and animal shoulder bones camels as you said ), but it was not bound in book form.  The Need to preserve Holy Qur�an was felt when a large number of Huffaz were Martyred in the batltle of Yamaamah.  The Khalifa , Abu Bakr Siddique RA consulted  Umar RA  who actually told him that he was afraid that in the future wars many more Huffaz {one who memorises Quran is a Hafiz and its plural is huffaze}  might be martyred.  Therefore in order to preserve Holy Qur�an, he persuaded  Abu Bakr  RA to give an order to compile Holy Qur�an in book form.  But  Abu Bakr RA said to Umar RA that it was not done by the Holy last Messenger {Pbuh} and that he would not do it either.

Eventually we find however that the Holy Companions agreed, and then the compilation was prepared roughly in a book form.  These copies of Holy Qur�an stayed with Hazrat Abu Bakr until he died. 

Then they were passed on to Hazrat Umar RA and after that to Hafsah Bint Hazrat Umar.

As mentioned above, Hazrat Abu Bakr Rathiallahu anhu was very reluctant to preserve and compile Holy Qur�an, that is, in book form.  Though Hazrat Umar had been urging that something had to be done since so many Huffaz were being martyred.  Later on  Abu Bakr RA agreed with the proposal given to him by  Umar RA saying � That Allah SWT in regard to Holy Qur�an prevailed upon my chest ( heart) and therefore I formed the same opinion as that of  Umar RA  according to Divine communication/Ilhaam).�

Thus he formed a board under the Chairmanship of a sahaba Zaid RA who was a Hafiz and authority on the revelation in order and ayaah of the Holy Qur�an.  Therefore, according to the command of Abu Bakr , Holy Qur�an was collected from the Holy Companions  for scrutiny and technical study and copy.  Nevertheless, for every written chapter  Zaid  RA always demanded evidence of two Huffaz, to verify that the text written was the same as that heard from the  the Holy Messenger of Allah {Peace be upon him}.  Once this  was verified and confirmed, the scribes would commit it to writing.  There fore a master copy properly written and bound was prepared and duly presented to  Abu Bakr RA. Since the period of khalifate of Abu Bakr RA was between 632- 634, until his  death, so i guess the compilation of holy Qur'an on book form would be betweem that period, though its exact date / year cud not be noted.

Now to your next question :

Arabic word "Ayah"  means line or verse.  Its literal meaning is "sign"/ "Miracle".  Ayah is called a sign/miracle  because it is a challenge for all to produce a line of Holy Qur'an.  Therefore it is a living miracle; each line (ayah) is a miraculous challenge.The plural of Ayah is called Ayat, which means miracles

And regarding the meanings of the word "Sign" - amongst various other meanings, the most suitable to this context is - " miracle evidencing supernatural power". I referred Oxford dictionary for this.

Chambers says "A miraculous token"

Hope you have got your answers. We shall welcome more questions from you.

 



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 10:23pm
seekshidayath,
 
I very much appreciate your detailed explanations. Thank you!
 
Do you know if any of the original items upon which the messages were written have been preserved? I realize that would be a very long time to save these items, but with care there may be a chance something could survive.
 
As I have been searching the Quran through YaQuB, and USC websites because they provide multiple translations, I came upon a verse that puzzles me. While looking for "Gabriel", I noticed in 2:87 that Hilali-Khan translates "biroohi" as "Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) <><>]" while the other nine use either "Holy Spirit", "holy spirit", or "Spirit of Holiness". Then when I searched for instances of "biroohi", I was shown only two other verses, and all three verses were in reference to Jesus. Then a "holy spirit" search revealed one other verse, also Jesus related, and I presume it was translated from the word "roohu".
 
Perhaps you would not know why the translator Hilali-Khan would call the Holy Spirit "Gabriel", but if you do, I would appreciate hearing your explanation. Also, I find it curious that the term "Holy Spirit" only appears with information about Jesus, and that some translators capitalize it and others do not. Would you care to make some comments about that?
 
Joe


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joe


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 11:23pm
 
That was indeed a good question. It made me to run down the books of different commentaries. Infact, it helped me to gain more knowledge regarding the term "Ruh-ul-Quddus". Let's have alook at the ayah you were referring to
 
" 2: 87 - And indeed, We gave Musa the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave `Isa, the son of Maryam, clear signs and supported him with Ruh-il-Qudus. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant Some you disbelieved and some you killed.
 
In reference to the bold part of that ayah, here is the commentary from Ibn Katheer, the most referred, commentary of the Holy Qur'an.
 
"Allah sent the last Prophet among the Children of Israel, `Isa the son of Mary, who was sent with some laws that differed with some in the Tawrah. This is why Allah also sent miracles to support `Isa. These included bringing the dead back to life, forming the shape of birds from clay and blowing into them, afterwhich they became living birds by Allah's leave, healing the sick and foretelling the Unseen, as Ibn `Abbas stated. Allah also aided him with Ruh Al-Qudus, and that refers to Jibril. All of these signs testified to the truthfulness of `Isa and what he was sent with" So here Ruh al -Qudus is referred to Gabriel
 
Ruh-ul-Ameen, is also discussed in an other part of the Quran. 26 : 192, 193, 194, 195 is like this
 
" And truly, this is a revelation from the Lord of all that exists,. Which the trustworthy Ruh (Jibril) has brought down. . Upon your heart that you may be (one) of the warners,. In the plain Arabic language.
 
 
 Here the ruh, referred to is Gabriel. We muslims believe that it is only Gabriel,  who bought down the revelations. Here is an ayah, which makes us clear that it was of Gabriel who bought down the Qura'an.
 
"Say (O Muhammad ): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'an) down to your heart by Allah's permission, confirming what came before it (i.e. the Tawrah and the Injil) and guidance and glad tidings for the believers "
 
 So the ruh-ul-ameen and rul-ul-quddus referred in these ayahs , is Gabriel. Regarding its english translation  Ruh means spirit and quddus means holy, so the exact translation is holy spirit. So the translation is n't wrong. But we consider this  "holy spirit" to be angel Jibraeel.
 
Hope , you got your answer. I feel am not that clear. So i wish our other readers too to explain if they find me missing.
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

 Hope , you got your answer. I feel am not that clear. 
 
I'm sure that there are many things that are a bit difficult to explain to a non-Muslim, but you did well. Translating from Arabic to English is propably very difficult and much can be lost. Thanks for your effort.
 
Would you mind going back to my previous post and let me know if you can answer the question about preservation of the original Quranic writings? I doubt there are any, but I'd like to get your, or someone's opinion.


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joe


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 November 2008 at 9:36pm
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.onesite.com/my.telegraph.co.uk/user/david_llewellyn/20070809112453.jpg&imgrefurl=http://my.telegraph.co.uk/david_llewellyn/blog/2007/08/09/ban_the_quran&usg=__SOBj1pdK0g-3abQ09rzo7KPNC0c=&h=450&w=600&sz=35&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=XAO92VOSISuSYM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3DOriginal%2Bcopies%2Bof%2BQur%2527an%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG -  
Hope you can see that picture. Thats 11th century Quran.  Also read these links
 
http://www.saudinf.com/main/y7418.htm - http://www.saudinf.com/main/y7418.htm
http://www.quran.org/science/ - http://www.quran.org/science/
 
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://arabic.islamicweb.com/images/wilaya3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/sources_of_shia.htm&usg=__WHM5bl7wJWbaCPjvF8ZKIdKJPhQ=&h=919&w=610&sz=86&hl=en&start=28&tbnid=dYtddMce9ZYbdM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3DOriginal%2Bcopies%2Bof%2BQur%2527an%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN -  
This is an other copy of  preserved Qur'an
 
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
 
Look down the thread of that link above . And kindly click on the links given below that thread.
 
The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia [41]. A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA [42]. This copy is proof that the text of the Qur�an we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami' Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul [43], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing [44]."
From http://www.iiie.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html

Original Quran from Uthman in Topkaki Turkey:
---------------------------------------------
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/topkapiselect.html - Museum website
Click books, then Quran to get to:
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/Ext/Koran.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/topkapi.html - The first Korans written in kufic script, besides the one believed to have been recited by khaliph Osman (RA) at the moment of his death (H.S.32)


Here's a picture of the original Quran:
http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/472565356 - Pic1
http://www.yanabi.com/media/IslamicImages/quran_old/images/From-time-of-Caliph-Uthman-Topkapi.jpg - Pic2
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/history/OLD_PICS - Pic3



Sura 2:7-10

(Sura 7:86-87)
 
 
Kindly let me know, if the reader can view pictures, as i pasted them for the first time.
 
 


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 9:50pm
 
Was reading a book - "The true message of Jesus Christ", by Bilal Philips. I thought to share, a paragraph , relevant to the subject of discussion.

Ancient manuscripts of Qur'an found in library of congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin , Ireland, the London Museum, as well as museums in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypyt , from all periods of Islamic history , have been compared. The result of all such studies confirm that there has not been any change in the text from its original  writing. For example, the  "Institute fur Koranforschung" of the University of Munich , Germany , collected and collated over 42000, complete or incomplete copies of the Qur'an. After 50 years of study, they reported that in terms of differences between the various copies, there were no variants, except  occasional mistakes of copylists , which could easily be ascertained.



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 4:54pm
Seekshidayath,
 
Thank you for all the trouble you must have gone through in order to bring this information.
 
I was aware of early manuscripts, but not to the extent that you have shown. My interest was in the possible existance of some of the original items upon which the verses were written prior to compilation into the Quran as we know it. I was intrigued by the variety of things used, such as leaves, pieces of leather and bones. I thought perhaps the bones and leather might have survived, but it seems that manuscripts are all that remains.
 
And as you inquired about pictures in the November 17th post ... the first two pictures of what was supposed to be the Quran merely showed up as a square box with an "x" in them. The last three did show two pages and a picture of the open book on a stand.
 
Thanks again for your time and effort.
 


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joe


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 9:26am
 
 Visit 'History of the Noble Quran's compilation and preservation with captured images of some earliest Manuscripts that date all the way back to the Prophet's first disciples'
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 7:22am
Caliph Uthmann collected all the variant copies of the Quran, saved some and burned others.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Caliph Uthmann collected all the variant copies of the Quran, saved some and burned others.
 
I donot normally post links, but this is that rare occassion.
Note that the Quran as we know it today was the same as in Uthmann's time who has lived along the prophet (pbuh).
 
http://www.dar-ul-ishaat.com/blog/index.php?/archives/136-Why-did-Caliph-Othman,-the-third-Caliph,-destroy-copies-of-the-Quran-available-during-his-time.html - http://www.dar-ul-ishaat.com/blog/index.php?/archives/136-Why-did-Caliph-Othman,-the-third-Caliph,-destroy-copies-of-the-Quran-available-during-his-time.html
 
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Caliph Uthmann collected all the variant copies of the Quran, saved some and burned others.
 
Thanks believer, for bringing up this sentence
 
This is the most common statement which is spread amongst non-muslims, trying to bring in doubts of its authenticity. Generally people, with wrong intentions, and having ill-feelings towards Islam, try to spread so. Anyways, here's again an oppurtunity to clear this misconception.
 
During the reign of the third Caliph `Uthman ibn `Affan, the Islamic commonwealth expanded further: into Persia, India, Russia, China, Turkey, and across North Africa. This rapid expansion of Islam and its teachings resulted in many problems and disputes, involving the correct reading and pronunciation of the Suhuf, emanating from certain regions and from new converts of the growing Islamic empire. Similar concerns were also raised by `Uthman�s military field commanders over variant readings of the Suhuf. For these reasons, the third Caliph (with the consensus of the learned) sought to standardize the Suhuf and ordered the preparation of several copies to be transcribed from the Suhuf in the custody of Hafsa.
 
After the `Uthmani Mushaf was collected, verified and distributed, the Caliph `Uthman ordered all other existing copies of the Qur�an, held by many, to be destroyed on the grounds that they were incomplete and included personal written notes in the manuscripts that could cause confusion. Now, say me, was this wrong to destroy those copies, that would lead to wrong understanding and change of meaning ?

 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 30 November 2008 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali Mansoor_ali wrote:

 
 Visit 'History of the Noble Quran's compilation and preservation with captured images of some earliest Manuscripts that date all the way back to the Prophet's first disciples'
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
 
Thanks for the excellent resource! Unfortunately I could not find references to the existence of original items upon which the messages were written after being received by Muhammad. I suppose I must assume that none have survived.


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joe


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 December 2008 at 2:20am
Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

 
Thanks for the excellent resource! Unfortunately I could not find references to the existence of original items upon which the messages were written after being received by Muhammad. I suppose I must assume that none have survived.
 
Original copies of the Quran from Uthman's time survive to this day. Most in various museums around the world, some orginal maunscripts of Islam are aslo found in renowned Islamic Universities' libraries, such as Al-Azhar and this really old one in Morrocco.
 
Turkey's musuem also has original quran copies. Usman's Quran is also in some musueom, i forget which.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 05 December 2008 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

Original copies of the Quran from Uthman's time survive to this day.
 
Thanks for your input, however my interest is in the original objects upon which Muhammed's friends wrote the messages as he received them. Apparently none have survived.
 
 


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joe


Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 4:27am
I have all the respect for yours interst but it seems non of those orignal objects survived.
 
Religion Islam  teaches us that get those knowledge which is beneficial for you.The objects are not that important for us rather the words of God which are full of wisdom.
 
Regards, 


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Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 10:34am
Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali Mansoor_ali wrote:

 
 Visit 'History of the Noble Quran's compilation and preservation with captured images of some earliest Manuscripts that date all the way back to the Prophet's first disciples'
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
 
Thanks for the excellent resource! Unfortunately I could not find references to the existence of original items upon which the messages were written after being received by Muhammad. I suppose I must assume that none have survived.



 

Allah Almighty Said:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption).  (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"


noble_quran_mss1.jpg%20%2860386%20bytes%29
noble_quran_mss2.JPG%20%2834385%20bytes%29
These are images of the original Noble Quran's entire compilation and entire original Manuscripts!
More images of the Original Noble Quran's Manuscripts are available at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/



Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by Usmani Usmani wrote:

The objects are not that important for us rather the words of God which are full of wisdom. 
 
I agree! Still it's nice to be able to produce hard evidence for the skeptic, even though the person of faith doesn't require it.
 
 


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joe


Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 10:56pm

Yes you are correct it could be a hard evidence but if this one is missing, there are many others hard evidences for those whom are in search of truth.

 



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Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 03 March 2009 at 1:34pm
Who exactly was muhammad?


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 03 March 2009 at 9:36pm
 
Muhammad {Pbuh} was a normal humanbeing like all of us. He was then bestowed with Prophethood, i.e was given the responsibility of conveying the message of Allah to all of us. He was finest human being, possessed very good character.


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 1:30am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

 
Muhammad {Pbuh} was a normal humanbeing like all of us. He was then bestowed with Prophethood, i.e was given the responsibility of conveying the message of Allah to all of us. He was finest human being, possessed very good character.


Muhammad was born in mecca, arabia, on monday, january 1, 570 A.D.
arabia
is a dried, arid and lifless place, except for the few oasis around, where water and date palms can be found.  To the north of arabia, is the syrian desert and to the east is iraq (persia), to the south is the indian ocean, and on the west is the red sea.  According to your muhammadan lunar calendar, muhammad was born on the 12th of rabiy'ul awwal, in the year of the elephant.  His parents name was aminya and abullat.  Both of them were from the quraysh tribe, or baniy quraysh.

The quraysh tribe, whose symbol was "the fish/reptilian," and was the title of fihr bin malik.  He was supposedly one of the most powerful and respected men in all of northern arabia, and lived in the 3rd century of the christian era (208 A.D.).  In the 5th century a descendant of fihr bin malik by the name of qusayy bin kalb became ruler of mecca, uniting all of the qurayshan tribes.  These tribes stayed united as one, until the authority was passed from abd shams bin abd manaaf to his younger brother, haashim after the death of abd shams, his son, umayyah envied haashim's position and initiated an open combat between the two men resulting with umayyah being banished from mecca for 10 years.  This caused the famous rivalry between the "haashimites" and the "umayyahs."  Haashim became as beloved a leader as his ancestor, fihr ibn malik.

When haashim died an early death, his brother, muttalib became leader of the quraysh.  When muttalib found out that haashim had a son named shayba, living in yathrib, he was nicknamed abdul muttalib, for it was mistakened that he was muttalib's slave (slavery was very prominent back then in arabia amongs all the ethnicities moors, hindus, euro-arabs, and the various mixtures and still active today).

At muttalib's death, abdul muttalib became chief of banu haashim and in charge of various paganistic duties in the upkeep of the ka'aba.  Again, the old enmity between the ummayads and haashimites resurfaced.  When harb, son of umayyah saw that abdul muttalib had been chosen as chief, he challenged the decision as his father had done before him.

But the decision of the judges went against harb, just as they did in  the case of his father, umayyah.  This, no doubt caused jealousy betwwen banu haashim (haashimtes) and banu umayyah (umayyads) which increased day by day.

As before, the haashimtes surfaced as the victors.  Abdul muttalib was well respected by the quraysh for his fairness and generosity.  When abdullah became 25 years old, his father abdul muttalib accompanied him to the house of wahhab, the chief of banu zuhra, and the brother of the famous kosai, to claim his daughter, amiynah (530-576 A.D.) as his wife.  Amiynah's mother was barra bint; bint means "daughter".  Their union produced muhammad. 

Muhammad was given the name muhammad by his grandfather, abul muttalib.  The word muhammad comes from the ashuric/syriac arabic root word, hamada, meaning "to give praise."  Now this word was stolen from the aramic/hebrew root word, khamad/chamad, meaning "to be delighting; beauty, greatly beloved, covet, delightable thing, delight, desire, goodly, lust."  Remember saudi arabia was occupied with different religions, who had different so-called semitic dialects as: the jews, pagans, hanifs, sabians etc. who all influenced muhammad greatly.

A woman named thuwaybah, a bondswoman of muhammad's uncle, abu lahab suckled him for a few days, while his grandfather, abdul muttalib continued to look for a wet-nurse for his favourite grandson.  Muhammad's father had passed on a little before his birth, at the young age of 25 years while travelling in  caravan.  It was customary in meeca to place the suckling babies in the care of a desert tribe, where the child grew up in the cleaner air, away from the cramped city and learnt the ways of the bedouins.  As a bedouin, he was raised as a sheep's herder.

Later the orphan, muhammad was given to a woman named haliymah who was from the tribe of sa'adiyah.  This tribe was known for the gracefulness of their speech.  Haliymah weaned the baby when he was two years old, for it was customary after that period of time, to return the foster-children to their families.  He was returned to his mother at four or five years old.  However 1 year later muhammad's mother amiyna had passed on, therefore muhammad was given to his uncle,  abu taalib, who looked out for him, for as long as he lived.




Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 7:57pm
Correction, after Amina died, he was cared by his grndfather Abdul Muthalib, in th eage of 8, Abdul Mutalib died. Abu Thalib took over to care him till his prophethood.

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Salam/Peace,

Semar

"We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH)

"1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 5:21am
Thats fine do you agree with everything else.  Peace and blessings.


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 06 March 2009 at 2:42am
Who was St. Augustine?


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 07 March 2009 at 6:46pm
Hhah! that was my answer in very brief. Thanks for sharing. You can also check a section "Prophet-Muhammad" ,{sallal lahu alayhi wasallam}, amongst our other sections and know more of this great personality.


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 March 2009 at 7:49am

A description with one of the Quran pictures linked mentions that Uhtmann was murdered.  Why?

Anyone know why one of the following was not responsible for compiling and standardizing the Quran, why Uthmann?  Had Uthman and Mohammad ever met?

Sahih Hadith, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 521: Narrated Masriq:
'Abdullah bin 'Amr mentioned 'Abdullah bin Masud and said, "I shall ever love that man, for I heard the Prophet saying, �Take (learn) the Quran from four: 'Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu'adh and Ubai bin Ka'b.�"

Sahih Hadith of Bukhari. Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510: Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of
Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Quran was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'
 
I find it sad that all the copies were detroyed.
 
Does anyone know where the original leaves and bones are that the verses were written on as Mohammad revealed them?
 
Also my understanding from hadeth is that the Quran was not compiled until after Mohammad's death.
 

Sahih Hadith of Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509: Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Quran (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yamama and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Quran be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Quran and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Quran. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Quran and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is: 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty... (till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Quran remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 09 March 2009 at 4:50am
Now the orthodox sunni muslims of today have never seen the real qur'aan.  They don't even have some of the original pages.  It was burnt by muhammad's own "companions" sahaaba.

It seems as though every orthodox sunni msulim organisation you meet is claiming to have the "oldest" qur'aan in their possession, since they cannot produce an orginal manuscript of the qur'aan as it was recited by muhammad.  However the christians hve the original aramiac and greek manuscripts of the bible, they are authentic.

They recently found part of the original bible, the hand written dead sea scrolls in the cave side of qumram, located in the jordan river area.

The dead sea scrolls of the qumran caves which were discovered in 1947 A.D. are the oldest surviving records of the old testament, some of them were written in the aramaic language while others in the hebrew language.

These scrolls are associated with the essenes who found a strick religious community off the northwestern hore of the dead sea.  The messiah jesus and john the baptist were both members of  the essene.

Therefore, don't christians have a better source of reference?  Muslims are only relying on faith that the qur'aan they have is right, because they have not yet recovered an original copy of the qur'aan.

So where is an authentic copy of the original qur'aan?  It does not exist; however they will lie and say that they have the "oldest" qur'aan giving you the impression that it is orginal.  Thhey did not expect for me to read their books carefully and find the following contradictions.  Now you too can ask the orthodox sunnis muslims which is the oldest qur'aan?  In the "muhammad encyclopedia of seera,"  volume 3, published in 1985 A.D. which is sanctioned by saudi arabia's dr. abdullah o. naseef, we read the caption: Ma'il (slanting) script is one of the oldest extant qur'ans, copied at medina in the 8th century."

Then in a book entitled "The road to holy mecca"  By hussein yoshio hirashima, printed in 1972 A.D. i found this caption on page 27:  "This hurge, handwritten qur'aan is the oldest in the world, dating from the tenth century.  It is preserved in the egyptian national museum in cairo and rarely displayed to the public."

I want to stop right here and make a point, how is it that egypt claims to have the oldest copy of the qur'aan dating to the tenth century A.D and the other copy of the qur'an dates to the eighth century A.D.?  This is clearly a two hundred year difference.  These orthodox sunni muslims must think you and i are real fools.

Then in "The qur'an the final testament," by rashad khalifa, printed in 1989 A.D. on page 614 i found this caption:  The oldest available copy of the qur'aan, the tashkent copy." 

So ask the orthodox sunni muslims, which is the oldest copy of the qur'aan?  And all three are in different kufi scripts, why?


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 09 March 2009 at 5:50am
As the verses from the qur'aan were revealed, they were written down on anything that was available, paper, etc. and a lot of it was put to memory by those whose job it was to commit the qur'aan to memory, called Al qura'aa'u. 

The primary and oldest manuscripts or codices are of the following people:
A) Salim (d.12)
B) Umar ubai b. ka'ab (d.29)
C) Ibn mas'ud (d.33)
D) Ali (d.40)
E) Abu musa al-ash'ari (d.44)
F) Hafsa (d.45)
G) Zayb b. thaabit (d.48)
H) Ayisha (d.48)
I ) Umm salama (d.58)
J) Abdallah b, amr (d.65)
K) Ibn abbas (d.68)
L) Ibn zubair (d.73)
M) Ubayd b. umair (d.74)
N) Anas b. malik (d.91)

Then, the language the qur'aan was revealed in, was ordered to be changed by the caliph uthmaan.

507.  Narrated anas bin malik:  (the caliph uthman ordered zaid bin thabit, sa'id bin al' as, abdullah bin az-zubair and abdur-rahman bin al harith bin hisham to write the qur'an in the form of a book (mushafs) and said to them, "in case you disagree with zaid bin thabit (al ansari) regarding any dialectic arabic utterance of the qur'an, then write it in the dialect of quraish, for the qur'an was revealed in this dealect."  So they did it.

Sahih al bukhari, volume 6, page 475

Now ask the orthodox sunni muslims is the qur'aan in classical arabic or is it the quraysh/quraish dialect as this hadith says?  There are some of you who say that the "dialect arabic utterances of the qur'aan, and the dialect of quraish" are one and the same.  Thus the qur'aan if changed at all, is still pure.  If this is true, then why wouldn't the quraish overstand these "dialect arabic utterances," if this was their native language?  This shows that they were two separate things.

The arabic word which is being translated as "dialects" in the above hadith 507 from bukhari is "lisaan."  As a word lisaan means "tongue," as wells as "dialect."  This is similar to the arabic word "lughatun,"  which means "language."  In the ashuric/syriac arabic there are two words for dialect:  lahjat and darajat and neither of  these words is found in this hadith.

Lugha - Language
Al lugha - Classical arabic
Lughawiy - Linguist
Laghw - Fooling, Talking, Nonsense; Ungrammatical language

(Hans wehr arabic-english dictionary)

What the hadiyth is really saying is if the compilers of the qur'aan came to a discrepancy, then they were to write the qur'aan in the dialect of the quraysh tribe (just one of the many tribes living in arabia at the time) which means somebody was writing the qur'aan down in a dialect other than what it was revealed in.  So if phrases were replaced in the qur'aan with quraysh "dialect," this was probably the only copy of the complete qur'aan that existed at  the time, then the qur'aan which you hold in your hands today is not all of allah's words.



Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 March 2009 at 9:06am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

A description with one of the Quran pictures linked mentions that Uhtmann was murdered.  Why?

Usman (r.a) was not as strict a Caliph as Umar (r.a) and his caliphate saw the emergence of some civil war , due to certain governors and officers becoming overbold. Some of the civil strife was partly the fault of the Jew, Abdullah bin Sabah - who spread fitnah and rumours among weaker muslims. It was a result of these (political differences) and  rumours that caused riots, which led to a siege of the Caliph - and his Martyrdom.
 
 
Quote
Anyone know why one of the following was not responsible for compiling and standardizing the Quran, why Uthmann?  Had Uthman and Mohammad ever met?
 
Yes, Usman (R.A) and Prophet Muhammad, not only met - they were close companions. Usman (r.a) was also Prophet Muhammad's son-in-law. He participated in all battles with Prophet Muhammad, except one. Usman was also one of the scribes of Prophet Muhammad (and he had many scribes) and wrote down verses of the Qur'an as they were revealed. Hence, as a trusted scribe of the Prophet - he was perfectly qualified for the job of compilation.
 
One of the reasons why Usman (R.a) standardized the Qur'an was because by his time (Caliphate), the Muslim empire had spread far and wide - with numerous non-arab speakers. Due to so many Muslim ethnicities and dialects - the problem of standardisation surfaced. The problem was laid out by Usman in front of various Companions of Prophet Muhammad, and it was decided toghether that the copy that was compiled during Abu Bakr's time should be taken as the standard one. Abu Bakr (1st Caliph) passed it on to Umar (2nd Caliph) - who left it with his daugher (Prophet Muhammad's wife, Hafsa). Usman sent for that copy, and had it distributed.
 
Excerpt:
 
Zaid bin Thabit, (another) trusted scribe of the revelation, was asked to prepare seven copies from it. He was to be helped by three more men, who had the Qur'an by heart.

Zaid himself had the whole Qur'an by heart. He was also one of the scribes of the revelation. First, he wrote out the whole book from memory. Then he read it out to a gathering of Muhajirun and Ansar three times. Then he compared this copy with the one that was with Hafsa. The two copies were exactly alike. Seven more copies were then written out and sent to different parts of the country.

 
Quote
 
I find it sad that all the copies were detroyed.
 
No need to feel sad. It was important to destroy any copies that were not authenticated, to prevent adulteration of unauthenticated material into original Qur'an. There was no point in allowing the existence of material that was not authenticated - better safe than sorry.
 
Quote
 
Also my understanding from hadeth is that the Quran was not compiled until after Mohammad's death.
 
Correct, the Qur'an was not in a "Book" form during Prophet Muhammad's lifetime. But it was written down during his lifetime. The "Book" was compiled during Abu Bakr's Caliphate. Pertinent point: His caliphate was 2yrs only, so it took less than that to compile a book form.
 

 



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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 March 2009 at 9:16am
For more information on the subject:
 

Question:

There were many versions of the Qur�an all of which were burnt by Usman (r.a.) except for one. Therefore is it not true that the present Qur�an is the one compiled by Usman (r.a.) and not the original revelation of God?

Answer:

One of the most common myths about the Qur�an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur�an, from a large set of mutually contradicting copies. The Qur�an, revered as the Word of Allah (swt) by Muslims the world over, is the same Qur�an as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was authenticated and written under his personal supervision. We will examine the roots of the myth which says that Usman (r.a.) had the Qur�an authenticated.

1.   Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the  Qur�an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. � Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) � May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur�an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur�an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).

2.   Order and sequence of Qur�an divinely inspired

The complete Qur�an was revealed over a period of 22� years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur�an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur�an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur�an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur�an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur�an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
3.  
Qur�an copied on one common material

The complete Qur�an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur�an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.
4.  
Usman (r.a.) made copies of the Qur�an from the original manuscript

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur�an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur�an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur�an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.).

Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur�an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsa (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet�s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur�an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur�an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur�an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur�an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur�an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

5.   Diacritical marks were added for non-Arabs

The original manuscript of the Qur�an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur�an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur�an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth �Umayyad� Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.


6.   
Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur�an

Allah has promised in the Qur�an :

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)."
[Al-Qur�an 15:9]



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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 09 March 2009 at 3:40pm
The qur'aan has been rewritten and revised.  The original qur'aan was burned after the prophet muhammad's death by the third caliph (successor), according to the orthodox sunni school of thought, 'uthmaan ibn affaan ibn abdul aasiy (574-656 A.D.).

This is related in reference to the account of the burning of the qur'aan:

"The new edition of the qur'an thus pbulished differed from the first edition seems probable from the fact that, as qustalani says, after hafsah's death her copy was torn in pieces by mirwan, governor of medina under mu'awiyyah.  T he burning of all other copies shows that serious variations had already found an entrance into the text, and this drastic remedy prevents us from comparing ancient copies with one another."  (Christian reply to muslim objections, page 61, W. st. clair tisdall, light of life, austria, 1980 A.D.)

Uthmaan authorized the revision of the first qur'aan prior to its distribution.  Here is an excerpt from the book entitled "introduction to islam" relating this event:

"Uthman caused immediately the copy prepared for abu-bakr to be entrusted to a commission, presided oveer by the above-mentioned zaid ibn thabit, for preparing seven copies; he authorized them to revise the old spelling if necessary.  When the task was completed the c aliph caused a public reading of the new "edition" before the experts present in the capital, from among the companions of the prophet, and then sent these copies to different centers of the vast islamic world, ordering that thenceforward all copies should be based only on the authentic edition.  He ordered the destruction of copies which any way deviated from the text thus officially established"  (Introduction to islam, page 18-19, muhammad hamidullah, centre culturel islamique, paris, 1969 A.D.).

No one can say that they have a copy of the original qur'aan in this day and time.

The chapters of the qur'aan have been re-arranged in a different order than that which was revealed to the prophet muhammad.  For example, suwratul faatiha was not the first revealed to the prophet muhamaad it was the fifth, so even its name which means  "opening" must be wrong.  However ,when the qur'aan was being compiled, it was placed as the first chapter withouth the prophet muhammad's approval.

The following hadith illustrates the fact that the qur'aan was cimpiled and recited as people wanted.  There was no set guidelines, or standards as to its compiling.  According to muslims it did not matter which verse was read first:

515 Narrated yusuf bin mahk:  while i was with aisha, the mother of the believers, a person from iraq came and asked, "what type of shroud is best?" Aisha said, "may allah be merciful to you!  What does it matter?" He said, "o mother of the believers!  Show me the copy of your qur'an," She said, "why?" he said, "in order to compile and arrange the qur'an according to it for people recite it with its suras not in proper order.  "Aisha said, "what does it matter which part of it you read first?  (be informed that the first thing that was revealed thereof was a sura from al mufassal, and in it was mentioned paradise and fire..."
Sahih al bukhari, volum 6, page 483

The 113 & 114 chapters of t he qur'aan didn't have names when they were revealed. 

When the qur'aan was being compiled the companions of the prophet muhammad gave the chapters the names they have now.  Isn't it true, that if all the names of t he chapters were removed, since they were not divinely inspired nor part of the original qur'aan would the qur'aan still be complete?

The chapters of the qur'aan have more than one name?

Did the prophet muhammad receive all these names?:

Suwrah al-hamd
faatihatul kitaab
umm al-kitaab

The 9th chapter of the qur'aan is known by two names:
Suwratul tawbah
Suwratul bara'at

The 94th chapter of the qur'aan is known by three names:
Suwrah inshira

The 111th chapter of the qur'aan is known by two names:
Suwratul masada
suratul lahab

The 35th chapter of the qur'aan is known by two names:
suwratul fatir
suwratul malaika

the 106th chapter of the qur'aan is known by two names:
Suwratul quraish
ash shitaa

The 17th chapter of the qur'aan is known by two names:
Suwratul israa
Bani israel

The 76th chapter of the qur'aan is known by two names:
suwratul insaan
suratul dahri

I have a handwritten kufic qur'aan which is in my possession that dates back to the early 1700's A.D. it has no markings where verses end, nor start and it is not voweled.  Who separated the qur'aan into verseds and chapters after the prophet muhammad died?

The qur'aan has extra verses

The qur'aan is said to have extra verses and chapters which were not included in the qur'aan:

When the prophet muhammad first received his revelation, those who wrote it down mad notations on the margins which caused confusion.  When later scribes collected the qur'aan for final approval.  This is a published book confirming that this sort of  "note taking" could have wound up being part of the qur'aan:

"For instance, some of the compatnions had noted down explanatory words and comments on the margins of their copies and it was feared that these might get mi8xed up with the origianl text of the qur'an..." (From "introduction to the study of  the qur'an", page 26, abudl a'la maududi, delhi art prerss, india, 1971 A.D.). 

Other people besides the prophet muhammad received verses of the qur'aan. 

There has also been attributed to abu bakr a verse which is still found in the qur'aan today, (the qur'aan 3:144).  This verse is found in the following hadith:

733 Narrated ibn abbas:  Abu bakr went out while umar bin al-khattab was talking to the people.  Abu bakr said , sit down o umar.  But umar refused to sit down.  So the people came to abu bakr and left umar.  Abu bakr said "to proceed if anyone amongst you use to worship muhammad then muhammad is dead but if andyone of you used to worship allah, then allah is alive and shall neveer die.  Allah said: muhammad is no more than an apostle and indeed many apostles have passed away before him (till the end of the verse)... allah will reward those who are thankful.

By allah, it was as if the people never knew that allah had revealed this verse beforer till abu bakr recited it and all the people received it from him and i heard everybody reciting it then.
Sahih al bukhar, volume 5 page 523 and on page 114, of why i am not a muslim, by ibn warraq, it says the following concerning the story of abd allah b. sa'd abi sarh about the qur'aan:

"The last name had for some time been one of the scribes employed at medina to write down the revelations.  On a number of occasions he had, with the prophet's consent, changed the closing wordsd of verses.  When the prophet had said "and god is mighty and wise" abd allah suggested writingdown "knowing and wise" and the prophet answered that there was no objection.  Having observed a succewssion of changes of this type abd allah renounced islam on the ground that the revelations if from god could not be changed at the prompting of a scribe such as himself.  After his apostasy he went to mecca and joined the qorayshites.







Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 09 March 2009 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by owen.grandison owen.grandison wrote:

The qur'aan has been rewritten and revised.  The original qur'aan was burned after the prophet muhammad's death by the third caliph (successor), according to the orthodox sunni school of thought, 'uthmaan ibn affaan ibn abdul aasiy (574-656 A.D.).
 
If you had gone  thru earlier posts of this thread, you will get to learn as why those copies were burnt. {Cud you let us know as why are you specifying ORTHODOX SUNNI SCHOOL OF THOUGHT- You can simple use  the words muslims. Denonimations does n't matter to us.


This is related in reference to the account of the burning of the qur'aan:

"The new edition of the qur'an thus pbulished differed from the first edition seems probable from the fact that, as qustalani says, after hafsah's death her copy was torn in pieces by mirwan, governor of medina under mu'awiyyah.  T he burning of all other copies shows that serious variations had already found an entrance into the text, and this drastic remedy prevents us from comparing ancient copies with one another."  (Christian reply to muslim objections, page 61, W. st. clair tisdall, light of life, austria, 1980 A.D.)

We don't believe the above. None of our books of history say so. Kindly go thru the earlier pages of the thread.


Uthmaan authorized the revision of the first qur'aan prior to its distribution.  Here is an excerpt from the book entitled "introduction to islam" relating this event: - WHo's the author  ? Kindly share the link here.

"Uthman caused immediately the copy prepared for abu-bakr to be entrusted to a commission, presided oveer by the above-mentioned zaid ibn thabit, for preparing seven copies; he authorized them to revise the old spelling if necessary. 
 
Yes, did you get it. It was difference in the spellings that changed the meaning as well. The essence of the message of Islam would disappear, if it continued. All those copies, which were of wrong accent / spellings were burnt, and the true copies were revised and authorised. Whats; the problem then ?
 
 When the task was completed the c aliph caused a public reading of the new "edition" before the experts present in the capital, from among the companions of the prophet, and then sent these copies to different centers of the vast islamic world, ordering that thenceforward all copies should be based only on the authentic edition.  He ordered the destruction of copies which any way deviated from the text thus officially established"  (Introduction to islam, page 18-19, muhammad hamidullah, centre culturel islamique, paris, 1969 A.D.).

No one can say that they have a copy of the original qur'aan in this day and time.

Original copies are exhibited at museums. Kindly , i repeat, go thru earlier posts of this thread. The contents of Qur'an are the same and not a single verse differed from the original text. Read from the above pasted ones of your post -  When the task was completed the c aliph caused a public reading of the new "edition" before the experts present in the capital, from among the companions of the prophet, and then sent these copies to different centers of the vast islamic world, ordering that thenceforward all copies should be based only on the authentic edition Is n;t clear that the public reading was taken up. This public was not the ordinary one, but those who learnt the Qura'n byheart. They knew each word by word. Read the last line, ordering thence forward all copies shud be based on authentic edition.

The chapters of the qur'aan have been re-arranged in a different order than that which was revealed to the prophet muhammad. 

The revelations were revealed at different occasion and in differnt number. Sometimes, just a verse would reveal, and sometimes collective verses were revealed.. After the whole Quran was revealed, then Gabriel {Jibraeel AS}, recited the Qur'an for abt three times to Prophet Muhammad. It is that order, which is followed today.
 
 
For example, suwratul faatiha was not the first revealed to the prophet muhamaad it was the fifth, so even its name which means  "opening" must be wrong.  However ,when the qur'aan was being compiled, it was placed as the first chapter withouth the prophet muhammad's approval.
 
As said above, that the chronological order was set by Allah swt ,thru  angel Jibraeel {Gabriel}. He recited Qur'an in this order present with all of us today, to Prophet Muhammad, in the holy month of Ramdhan. It was in this order that it was compiled.


The following hadith illustrates the fact that the qur'aan was cimpiled and recited as people wanted. 
 
Where does it show that it was compiled as people wanted ? Anyways, it says us that it  doesn't matter, whichever part you read first. I just marked it bold below
 
There was no set guidelines, or standards as to its compiling.  According to muslims it did not matter which verse was read first:
 
Each does n;t matter which ever surah you read first, Its not compulsory that you read 8th and then go for 9th chapter. YOu can read 9th as well, The purpose of reading Quran is to gain knowledge, receive guidance out of what we read, ponder over the verses, also gain rewards for each word we recite. It does n;t make a difference if i go to read the last chapter as well. Thats the speciality of this holy Book


515 Narrated yusuf bin mahk:  while i was with aisha, the mother of the believers, a person from iraq came and asked, "what type of shroud is best?" Aisha said, "may allah be merciful to you!  What does it matter?" He said, "o mother of the believers!  Show me the copy of your qur'an," She said, "why?" he said, "in order to compile and arrange the qur'an according to it for people recite it with its suras not in proper order.  "Aisha said, "what does it matter which part of it you read first?  (be informed that the first thing that was revealed thereof was a sura from al mufassal, and in it was mentioned paradise and fire..."
Sahih al bukhari, volum 6, page 483
 
This is the hadith in full. Read the latter part as well, InshaAllah, it shall give more understanding.
 
Narrated Yusuf bin Mahk: While I was with Aisha, the mother of the Believers, a person from Iraq came and asked, "What type of shroud is the best?" 'Aisha said, "May Allah be merciful to you! What does it matter?" He said, "O mother of the Believers! Show me (the copy of) your Qur'an," She said, "Why?" He said, "In order to compile and arrange the Qur'an according to it, for people recite it with its Suras not in proper order." 'Aisha said, "What does it matter which part of it you read first? (Be informed) that the first thing that was revealed thereof was a Sura from Al-mufassal, and in it was mentioned Paradise and the Fire. When the people embraced Islam, the Verses regarding legal and illegal things were revealed. If the first thing to be revealed was: 'Do not drink alcoholic drinks.' people would have said, 'We will never leave alcoholic drinks,' and if there had been revealed, 'Do not commit illegal sexual intercourse, 'they would have said, 'We will never give up illegal sexual intercourse.' While I was a young girl of playing age, the following Verse was revealed in Mecca to Muhammad: 'Nay! But the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.' (54.46) Sura Al-Baqara (The Cow) and Surat An-Nisa (The Women) were revealed while I was with him." Then 'Aisha took out the copy of the Qur'an for the man and dictated to him the Verses of the Suras (in their proper order) .  (Book #61, Hadith #515)

The 113 & 114 chapters of t he qur'aan didn't have names when they were revealed. 

When the qur'aan was being compiled the companions of the prophet muhammad gave the chapters the names they have now.  Isn't it true, that if all the names of t he chapters were removed, since they were not divinely inspired nor part of the original qur'aan would the qur'aan still be complete?

My dear friend, the names of the chapters, were n't named at all. So there is no question of removing the chapters.  Even today it does n't make much difference for us to look at names of the chapters. These chapters were named by the companions, so that it would ease a reciter.  The order of the surahs, however, does not reflect the chronological order of the Quranic verses, nor does the surah structure reflect the nature of the original Quranic revelation.

The chapters of the qur'aan have more than one name?

Did the prophet muhammad receive all these names?:

Suwrah al-hamd
faatihatul kitaab
umm al-kitaab

It has still many names . As said it does n't matter the content of the Qur;'an if it has got two names or more. It was the nature of arabs, that if they liked anything, they would attribute it with more titles and names. 


I have a handwritten kufic qur'aan which is in my possession that dates back to the early 1700's A.D. it has no markings where verses end, nor start and it is not voweled.  Who separated the qur'aan into verseds and chapters after the prophet muhammad died?

Yes this is a good question. The military expansion of Islam led to two direct consequences concerning the integrity of the Quranic text. First, large numbers of the faithful were dying out in the various military expeditions. Each time someone died who had the Quranic text memorized, that meant that one copy of the Qur'an disappeared forever. Second, the expansion of Islam swelled the ranks of the faithful. Many of these new converts spoke other langagues and the original Arabic of the Qur'an began to corrupt. Faced with these two threats to the integrity of the Qur'an , 'Uthman orderd a rescension of the text to be made and to serve as the definitive written version of the text. A rescension is a version of a text that is assembled from all the variant versions of that text. 'Uthman, however, relied on two sources: the written text that had been ordered by Abu Bakr and that still existed, and the various oral texts of Muslims who memorized it during the lifetime of Muhammad. In Islamic history, there is no variation between these two sources, so the Uthmanic "rescension" is largely a codifying of a single version of a text. This version, the 'Uthmanic rescension, is the version of the Qur'an that has remained, unchanged, the central holy text of Islam. While this compilation the vowels were added, so that  original arabic would not get corrupted. Take the case of english. Don' t the accent differ. Likewise, there are chances that the accent may even change the meanings, as we misunderstand and mispell a word. Infact you shud appreciate these efforts of Uthman RA. If one is efficient enough to recite it without vowels, you can. Even today, arabs read Qur'an without it.


hen the prophet muhammad first received his revelation, those who wrote it down mad notations on the margins which caused confusion.  When later scribes collected the qur'aan for final approval.  This is a published book confirming that this sort of  "note taking" could have wound up being part of the qur'aan:

"For instance, some of the compatnions had noted down explanatory words and comments on the margins of their copies and it was feared that these might get mi8xed up with the origianl text of the qur'an..." (From "introduction to the study of  the qur'an", page 26, abudl a'la maududi, delhi art prerss, india, 1971 A.D.). 

Arabic is a very deep rooted language, It is its sweetness. The more we read and ponder, the more we get to understand. We never get bored by reading it. ITS THE MOST READ BOOK IN THE WORLD. So these verses have explanatory words and commentaries of all those who understood Qura'n deeply. So don't you think, it was a very good effort to mark margins so that they don't get mix-up with original text !

Other people besides the prophet muhammad received verses of the qur'aan. 

Its a baseless statement ! Those who clain to receive revelations are all liars, as Muhammad is the last Prophet to get those revelations.


re has also been attributed to abu bakr a verse which is still found in the qur'aan today, (the qur'aan 3:144).  This verse is found in the following hadith:

733 Narrated ibn abbas:  Abu bakr went out while umar bin al-khattab was talking to the people.  Abu bakr said , sit down o umar.  But umar refused to sit down.  So the people came to abu bakr and left umar.  Abu bakr said "to proceed if anyone amongst you use to worship muhammad then muhammad is dead but if andyone of you used to worship allah, then allah is alive and shall neveer die.  Allah said: muhammad is no more than an apostle and indeed many apostles have passed away before him (till the end of the verse)... allah will reward those who are thankful.

By allah, it was as if the people never knew that allah had revealed this verse beforer till abu bakr recited it and all the people received it from him and i heard everybody reciting it then.
 
When Muslims suffered defeat in battle at Uhud and some of them were killed, Shaytan shouted, "Muhammad has been killed.'' Ibn Qami'ah went back to the idolators and claimed, "I have killed Muhammad.'' Some Muslims believed this rumor and thought that the Messenger of Allah had been killed, claiming that this could happen, for Allah narrated that this occurred to many Prophets before. Therefore, the Muslims' resolve was weakened and they did not actively participate in battle. This is why Allah sent down to His Messenger 3:144.  Hope you got to know as when this verse was revealed.
Now next.
When Prophet {Pbuh} passed away, Umar RA was n't ready to accept this news. You know, it happens even to us if our dear ones are lost. As a reminder Abu Bakr {RA} recited that verse to Umar RA. He was in a mood to slay the person who says the Prophet {saws} has passed away. So people around did not understand, as how to convince him. Abu Bakr came out and just recited this ayah. In such tensed situation, people felt that verse very refreshing. Umar RA, then cooled down and accepted the news.
 

Sahih al bukhar, volume 5 page 523 and on page 114, of why i am not a muslim, by ibn warraq, it says the following concerning the story of abd allah b. sa'd abi sarh about the qur'aan:

"The last name had for some time been one of the scribes employed at medina to write down the revelations.  On a number of occasions he had, with the prophet's consent, changed the closing wordsd of verses.  When the prophet had said "and god is mighty and wise" abd allah suggested writingdown "knowing and wise" and the prophet answered that there was no objection.  Having observed a succewssion of changes of this type abd allah renounced islam on the ground that the revelations if from god could not be changed at the prompting of a scribe such as himself.  After his apostasy he went to mecca and joined the qorayshites.

Its all wrong ! Prophet {Pbuh} never added or changed any revelation. This person above as said , is an apostate. Naturally, when he has got no faith, and fear of Allah, then he would build up such stories. You get to read many such fake ones.



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 10 March 2009 at 5:17am
The reason why i say orthodox sunni muslims is because there is a difference between shi'ites, ahmadiyyah and various other sects.  If you are an orthodox sunni muslim you don't believe as they do there are differences in the belief somewhere along the line.  And thats why you fight and kill each other which is a shame because all life is sacred.  So there is denomination in islam.

The verses of the qur'aan changed while being revealed to suit the needs of the prophet muhamma's followers.

The follwoing hadith is a perfect example of  how the verses of the qur'aan were changed to please a blind man:

512. Narrated al-bara: there was revealed: not equal are those believers who sit at home and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah. (4:95)

The prophe said, "call zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and teh scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the inkpot)."  Then he said, "write Not equal are those believers who sit...", and at that time amr bin um maktum, the blinde man was sitting behind the prophet.  He said, "o allah's messenger!  What is your order for me (as regards to the above verse) as i am a blind man?"  So instead dof teh above verse, the following verse was revealed: Not equal are those believers who sit at home except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.)  and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah." (4:95)
sahih al bukhari, volume 6, page 480

Did the prophet muhammad do this himself?  This hadith does not mention that the angel gabriel, who brough him the revelation ofthe qur'aan intervened at all to change  the verse.

In another book which was published in 1980 A.D. we read a story of how the prophet muhammad changed a verse of the qur'aan to please the idolatrous tribes in mecca.

"Regarding the rumour of quraish's acceptance of islam historians have mentioned the event of "gharaniq."  According to them it so happened that once the holy prophet confused while reciting surah al-najm (chapter 53).  When he reached on the following verses:

"Have ye thought upon al-lat and al-uzza, and al-manat, the third, the other". (53:19-20)

He recited: "These idols are respected and honoured, and their intercession is acceptable."

Afterwards the holy prophet recited the whole chapte of al-najm and in the end performed "sijdah al-talawat".  The non-believers (idolaters) of mecca who were present on that occasion also performed the "sidjad" and spread the rumour that muhammad (sallalahu alaihi wa sallam) accepted their idols.  The next day when angel gabriel came to the holy prophet and heard the chapter al-najm from him he pointed out the mistake and told him that part was not a revelation.
Muhammad the final messenger, dr. majid ali khan, idarah-i adabiyat-i delli, india, 1980 A.D., pages 86-87

THE QURAN HAS MISSING CHAPTERS.

There were two chapters collected when the qur'aan was being compiled which were not added.  Ubay presented a chpater called "suwratul khaal".  "Khaal" translates as "maternal uncle, mole or beauty spot."  The second chapter that was missing was called "suwratul hafd," which is also known as suwratul qunut.  Suwratul qunut is more commonly known now a days as "dua (prayer) qunut" which is found at the end of certain qur'aans.  Any arab you meet will be familiar with this duaa'.  The word hafd translates as "pace, grandson."  These two chapters were supposedly omitted from the qur'aan by the caliph uthmaan.

Another known chaptere to have been omitted is called suwra an nurayn which can be found in its entirely in the orginal arabic in Dabistan-i mazahib by mirza muhsin, page 220-221.  Many shi'ites say that it was part of the qur'aan and that it was recited to the prophet muhammad by the angel gabriel and that it was omitted by those who opposed the successorship of amiyrul mu'miniyn ali after his death.

In the book entitled "kitabuz zakat" it states that at basra, abu musa ashari said to 500 reciters of the qur'aan:

"Verily wwe used to recite a surah which in length and sharpness, we used to compare with one of the subuhat and i have forgotten it except that i have preserved from it the words "o ye who.." (christian reply to muslim objectiosn, page 58, w. st. clair tisdall, light of life, austria, 1980 A.D.)

the qur'aan has missing verses.

There are cited reporst of certain verses which were thought to be omitted from the qur'an.  One in particular is called the "verse of stoning" which reads:

"And the old man and the old woman if they have committed adultery, then stone them both assuredly."  (the collection of the qur'an, john burton, cambridge university press, london, 1977 pg 65-66)

The hadith collection by ibn majah narrates that "aisha the proophet muhammad's third wife, said that the verse of stoning was in her care.  However the piece of paper  containing this verse was undere neath her bed and after the prophet muhammads death was consumed by an animal.  Thus this verse was omitted altogether from the qur'an when the qur'an was collected to be made into a a book."  The second confirmation of this verse is found in the hadith book called mishkatul masabih, volume 3, page 912:

"Abdullah b. abbas reported that umar b. khattab sat on the pulpit of allah's messenger and said: verily allah sent muhammad with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him.  We recited it retained it in our memory and understood it.  Allah's messenger awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and aftefr him wer also awarded the punishment of stoning.  I am afraid that with the lapse of time the people may forget it and may say: we do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by allah.  Stoning is a duty laid down in allah's book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy, or a confession."

(Also refer to kitabul hudud and abwabun nikah for other traditions on the "verse of stoning").

This is just two of the many versions of the "verse of stoning."  If the prophet muhammad recited it only one way, how is it that there are so many versions?  It is up to you to decide which of the following is correct.  In hadith transmitted from ubayy it states:

1. "The prophet said, "take it from me god has now appointed a way for women: the virgin with the virgin, one hundred strokes and a years banishment; the non-virgin with the non-virgin, one hundred strokes and stoning" (risalah, page 20)

2. "The descent of inspiration (wahy) was troublesome to the prophet.  His face would look ashen in colour.  One day inspiration came down on him and he showed the usual signs of distress.  When he recovered he said, "take it from me! god had appointed a way for the women: the non-virgin with the non_virgin, one hundred strokes and death by stoneing; the virgin, one hundred and banishment for a year." (ahmed b. al husain al baihaqi,al sunan al kubra, 10 volumes, haideerabad, 1925-38/1344-57, volume 8, page 210)

3. "We could tell when the inspiration descended upon the prophet.  When the words , "or until god appoint a way", were revealed, and the inspirationascended, the prophet said: take heed! god has now appointed the way: the virgin with the virgin, one hundred strokes and banishment for a year; the non-virgin with the non-virgin, one hundred strokes and death by stoning." (sulaiman b. da'ud al tayalisi, sunan, haideraban, 1904/1321, page 79)

4. Umar declared, I fear that with the passage of time some will say, we do not find stoning in the book of god, and will neglect a divine injunction revealed by god.  Stoning is a just claim against teh non-virgin fornicator when valid proof is brought, or pregnancy occur or confession is made.  We used to recit it the saikh and the saikha, when they fornicate stone them outright.  The messenger of god stoned and we have stoned. (ali b. abdullah, teacher of bukhari)

(The collection of the qur'an, john burton, cambridge university press, london, 1977 pages 74,75,79)

Can this be considered a "reliable chain of transmitters," if there are so many versions?  Of course not.  Besides there being evidence of the actual verse of stoning there are also a few hadith which speak of  the calip umar referring to the verse of stoning:

Ibn abbas reports a sermon by umar bin al khaatib in the course of which he said,

Men! stoning is a penalty laid down by god.  Do not neglect it.  It is in the book of god and the sunna of your prophet.  The messenger of god stone; abu bakr stoned, and i have stoned. (tayalisi, page 6)

Umar announced from the prophet muhammad's pulpit:

"god sent muhammad with the truth and revealed to him the book.  Part of what god revealed was the stoninig verse.  We used to recite it and we memorized it.  The prophet stoned and we have stoned after him.  I fear that with the passage of time somew will say, "we do not find stoning in the book of god", and will therefore neglect a divine junction on which god revealed.  Stoning is a just claim (baihaqi, volume 8, page 210.)

Malik reports that when umar returned from the pilgrimage he addressed the people of medina:

"Men the sunna has been established, the obligatory duties imposed and you have been left in no uncertainty.  Beware lest you neglect the stoning verse on account of those who say, we do not find two penalties in the book of god.  The prophet stoned, and we have stoned.  By him who holds my soul in his hand! But that men would say, umar has added to the book of god.  I would write it in with my own hand, the saikh and the saikha, when they fornicate, stone them outright.  (muwatta, k. al hudu; cf. fath, volume 12, page 119)

First of all why are there so many versions of this same verse?  If the caliph umar knew that the verse was omitted from the qur'aan why didn't he add it to the qur'aan?  Also how is it that a verse which was committed to memory by the prophet muhammad's companions was able to be removed from the qur'aan because a  goat at it?  Why wasn't this verse memorized as well?  And why did allah allow this to happen to his holy book and muhamma'ds faithful companions?

If direct quotes of the verse and hadiths which verify the existencwe of this verse is not enough, there are also hadiths which state which chapter of the qur'aan the "verse of stoning" belonged to.

Ubayy asked zirr b. hubais, how many verses do you recite in suratul ahzab?  Zirr replied "seventy-three verses.  Ubayy asked if that was all.  I have seen it.  He said , when it was the same length as baqara.  It contained the words "the saikh and saikha, when they fornicate, stone them outright, as an exemplary punishment from god.  God is mighty wise.  (baihaqi, volume 8, pages 210-211).

Suratul ahzab was identified as the sura originially containing the stoning verse, and in addition to ubayy and abu musa, "aisha reports that suratul ahzab used to be recited in the lifetime of the prophet muhammad as having 200 verses, but when the caliph uthman had the qur'an compiled, all they could find was its present length.  Suratul ahzab has only 73 verses in today's qur'an."  (Christian reply to muslim objections, pages 58-59, w. st. clair tisdall, light of life, austria, 1980 A.D.)


Why hasn't any of the caliphs been put on the spot for omitting verses from the qur'aan?  Did allah or muhammad  grant them this permission?  If so where can this be found in the qur'aan?  This cannot be blamed on the prophet muhammad for he was not alive.  This can only be blamed on his successors who compiled and edited the qur'aan.  These haadiths involve the names of  the first three successors ofthe prophet muhammad who are venerated by the orthodox sunni muslims, because they were caliphs.  Why is the fact never published, discussed, or brought to public view that they were involved in the omission of "the verse of stoning"?



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 10 March 2009 at 3:33pm

 To owen.grandison

 Topic:History of the Quran's Compilation and Preservation


Allah Almighty Said:
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption).  (The Noble Quran, 15:9)"

 

noble_quran_mss1.jpg%20%2860386%20bytes%29
noble_quran_mss2.JPG%20%2834385%20bytes%29
These are images of the original Noble Quran's entire compilation and entire original Manuscripts!
More images of the Original Noble Quran's Manuscripts are available at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Islamic Awareness' Detailed and Thorough Responses with captured images of the earliest manuscripts!

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/





Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 10 March 2009 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by owen.grandison owen.grandison wrote:

The reason why i say orthodox sunni muslims is because there is a difference between shi'ites, ahmadiyyah and various other sects.  If you are an orthodox sunni muslim you don't believe as they do there are differences in the belief somewhere along the line.  And thats why you fight and kill each other which is a shame because all life is sacred.  So there is denomination in islam.

The verses of the qur'aan changed while being revealed to suit the needs of the prophet muhamma's followers.

The follwoing hadith is a perfect example of  how the verses of the qur'aan were changed to please a blind man:

512. Narrated al-bara: there was revealed: not equal are those believers who sit at home and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah. (4:95)

The prophe said, "call zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and teh scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the inkpot)."  Then he said, "write Not equal are those believers who sit...", and at that time amr bin um maktum, the blinde man was sitting behind the prophet.  He said, "o allah's messenger!  What is your order for me (as regards to the above verse) as i am a blind man?"  So instead dof teh above verse, the following verse was revealed: Not equal are those believers who sit at home except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.)  and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah." (4:95)
sahih al bukhari, volume 6, page 480

Did the prophet muhammad do this himself?  This hadith does not mention that the angel gabriel, who brough him the revelation ofthe qur'aan intervened at all to change  the verse.

In another book which was published in 1980 A.D. we read a story of how the prophet muhammad changed a verse of the qur'aan to please the idolatrous tribes in mecca.

"Regarding the rumour of quraish's acceptance of islam historians have mentioned the event of "gharaniq."  According to them it so happened that once the holy prophet confused while reciting surah al-najm (chapter 53).  When he reached on the following verses:

"Have ye thought upon al-lat and al-uzza, and al-manat, the third, the other". (53:19-20)

He recited: "These idols are respected and honoured, and their intercession is acceptable."

Afterwards the holy prophet recited the whole chapte of al-najm and in the end performed "sijdah al-talawat".  The non-believers (idolaters) of mecca who were present on that occasion also performed the "sidjad" and spread the rumour that muhammad (sallalahu alaihi wa sallam) accepted their idols.  The next day when angel gabriel came to the holy prophet and heard the chapter al-najm from him he pointed out the mistake and told him that part was not a revelation.
Muhammad the final messenger, dr. majid ali khan, idarah-i adabiyat-i delli, india, 1980 A.D., pages 86-87

THE QURAN HAS MISSING CHAPTERS.

There were two chapters collected when the qur'aan was being compiled which were not added.  Ubay presented a chpater called "suwratul khaal".  "Khaal" translates as "maternal uncle, mole or beauty spot."  The second chapter that was missing was called "suwratul hafd," which is also known as suwratul qunut.  Suwratul qunut is more commonly known now a days as "dua (prayer) qunut" which is found at the end of certain qur'aans.  Any arab you meet will be familiar with this duaa'.  The word hafd translates as "pace, grandson."  These two chapters were supposedly omitted from the qur'aan by the caliph uthmaan.

Another known chaptere to have been omitted is called suwra an nurayn which can be found in its entirely in the orginal arabic in Dabistan-i mazahib by mirza muhsin, page 220-221.  Many shi'ites say that it was part of the qur'aan and that it was recited to the prophet muhammad by the angel gabriel and that it was omitted by those who opposed the successorship of amiyrul mu'miniyn ali after his death.

In the book entitled "kitabuz zakat" it states that at basra, abu musa ashari said to 500 reciters of the qur'aan:

"Verily wwe used to recite a surah which in length and sharpness, we used to compare with one of the subuhat and i have forgotten it except that i have preserved from it the words "o ye who.." (christian reply to muslim objectiosn, page 58, w. st. clair tisdall, light of life, austria, 1980 A.D.)

the qur'aan has missing verses.

There are cited reporst of certain verses which were thought to be omitted from the qur'an.  One in particular is called the "verse of stoning" which reads:

"And the old man and the old woman if they have committed adultery, then stone them both assuredly."  (the collection of the qur'an, john burton, cambridge university press, london, 1977 pg 65-66)

The hadith collection by ibn majah narrates that "aisha the proophet muhammad's third wife, said that the verse of stoning was in her care.  However the piece of paper  containing this verse was undere neath her bed and after the prophet muhammads death was consumed by an animal.  Thus this verse was omitted altogether from the qur'an when the qur'an was collected to be made into a a book."  The second confirmation of this verse is found in the hadith book called mishkatul masabih, volume 3, page 912:

"Abdullah b. abbas reported that umar b. khattab sat on the pulpit of allah's messenger and said: verily allah sent muhammad with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him.  We recited it retained it in our memory and understood it.  Allah's messenger awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and aftefr him wer also awarded the punishment of stoning.  I am afraid that with the lapse of time the people may forget it and may say: we do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by allah.  Stoning is a duty laid down in allah's book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy, or a confession."

(Also refer to kitabul hudud and abwabun nikah for other traditions on the "verse of stoning").

This is just two of the many versions of the "verse of stoning."  If the prophet muhammad recited it only one way, how is it that there are so many versions?  It is up to you to decide which of the following is correct.  In hadith transmitted from ubayy it states:

1. "The prophet said, "take it from me god has now appointed a way for women: the virgin with the virgin, one hundred strokes and a years banishment; the non-virgin with the non-virgin, one hundred strokes and stoning" (risalah, page 20)

2. "The descent of inspiration (wahy) was troublesome to the prophet.  His face would look ashen in colour.  One day inspiration came down on him and he showed the usual signs of distress.  When he recovered he said, "take it from me! god had appointed a way for the women: the non-virgin with the non_virgin, one hundred strokes and death by stoneing; the virgin, one hundred and banishment for a year." (ahmed b. al husain al baihaqi,al sunan al kubra, 10 volumes, haideerabad, 1925-38/1344-57, volume 8, page 210)

3. "We could tell when the inspiration descended upon the prophet.  When the words , "or until god appoint a way", were revealed, and the inspirationascended, the prophet said: take heed! god has now appointed the way: the virgin with the virgin, one hundred strokes and banishment for a year; the non-virgin with the non-virgin, one hundred strokes and death by stoning." (sulaiman b. da'ud al tayalisi, sunan, haideraban, 1904/1321, page 79)

4. Umar declared, I fear that with the passage of time some will say, we do not find stoning in the book of god, and will neglect a divine injunction revealed by god.  Stoning is a just claim against teh non-virgin fornicator when valid proof is brought, or pregnancy occur or confession is made.  We used to recit it the saikh and the saikha, when they fornicate stone them outright.  The messenger of god stoned and we have stoned. (ali b. abdullah, teacher of bukhari)

(The collection of the qur'an, john burton, cambridge university press, london, 1977 pages 74,75,79)

Can this be considered a "reliable chain of transmitters," if there are so many versions?  Of course not.  Besides there being evidence of the actual verse of stoning there are also a few hadith which speak of  the calip umar referring to the verse of stoning:

Ibn abbas reports a sermon by umar bin al khaatib in the course of which he said,

Men! stoning is a penalty laid down by god.  Do not neglect it.  It is in the book of god and the sunna of your prophet.  The messenger of god stone; abu bakr stoned, and i have stoned. (tayalisi, page 6)

Umar announced from the prophet muhammad's pulpit:

"god sent muhammad with the truth and revealed to him the book.  Part of what god revealed was the stoninig verse.  We used to recite it and we memorized it.  The prophet stoned and we have stoned after him.  I fear that with the passage of time somew will say, "we do not find stoning in the book of god", and will therefore neglect a divine junction on which god revealed.  Stoning is a just claim (baihaqi, volume 8, page 210.)

Malik reports that when umar returned from the pilgrimage he addressed the people of medina:

"Men the sunna has been established, the obligatory duties imposed and you have been left in no uncertainty.  Beware lest you neglect the stoning verse on account of those who say, we do not find two penalties in the book of god.  The prophet stoned, and we have stoned.  By him who holds my soul in his hand! But that men would say, umar has added to the book of god.  I would write it in with my own hand, the saikh and the saikha, when they fornicate, stone them outright.  (muwatta, k. al hudu; cf. fath, volume 12, page 119)

First of all why are there so many versions of this same verse?  If the caliph umar knew that the verse was omitted from the qur'aan why didn't he add it to the qur'aan?  Also how is it that a verse which was committed to memory by the prophet muhammad's companions was able to be removed from the qur'aan because a  goat at it?  Why wasn't this verse memorized as well?  And why did allah allow this to happen to his holy book and muhamma'ds faithful companions?

If direct quotes of the verse and hadiths which verify the existencwe of this verse is not enough, there are also hadiths which state which chapter of the qur'aan the "verse of stoning" belonged to.

Ubayy asked zirr b. hubais, how many verses do you recite in suratul ahzab?  Zirr replied "seventy-three verses.  Ubayy asked if that was all.  I have seen it.  He said , when it was the same length as baqara.  It contained the words "the saikh and saikha, when they fornicate, stone them outright, as an exemplary punishment from god.  God is mighty wise.  (baihaqi, volume 8, pages 210-211).

Suratul ahzab was identified as the sura originially containing the stoning verse, and in addition to ubayy and abu musa, "aisha reports that suratul ahzab used to be recited in the lifetime of the prophet muhammad as having 200 verses, but when the caliph uthman had the qur'an compiled, all they could find was its present length.  Suratul ahzab has only 73 verses in today's qur'an."  (Christian reply to muslim objections, pages 58-59, w. st. clair tisdall, light of life, austria, 1980 A.D.)


Why hasn't any of the caliphs been put on the spot for omitting verses from the qur'aan?  Did allah or muhammad  grant them this permission?  If so where can this be found in the qur'aan?  This cannot be blamed on the prophet muhammad for he was not alive.  This can only be blamed on his successors who compiled and edited the qur'aan.  These haadiths involve the names of  the first three successors ofthe prophet muhammad who are venerated by the orthodox sunni muslims, because they were caliphs.  Why is the fact never published, discussed, or brought to public view that they were involved in the omission of "the verse of stoning"?



 To owen.grandison

 
Topic:Was The Bible Same As We Have In Our Hands Today?

 

The basis of evaluation of any had�th (story or report) in Islam of any text concerned particularly with religion is based on the study of matn (i.e., text) and its isnad (i.e., chain of narration).

A had�th (pl. ah�d�th) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; cAbdullah b. al-Mub�rak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Im�m al-Bukh�r�, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."[1]

The Christian 'had�th' is composed of matn (text) but no isnad (chain of narration). Without isnad, as cAbdullah b. al-Mubarak said, anyone can claim anything saying that it is coming from the authority. The authorities in the case of Christian 'had�th' are the Apostles and later day Church Fathers. But how can one be sure that the Christian 'had�th' is not mixed with falsehood without the proper isnad and its verification?

The Old Testament, to certain extent and the New Testament in toto lack chain of narration. When this argument was put forward, the Christian missionary Jochen Katz wrote:

On 8 Oct 1998, Jochen Katz wrote (on a different thread):

> That is a bogus argument from an Islamic point of view.

Missionaries when cornered try to wiggle out of the argument by calling names. According to Katz, the Islamic argument of using the chain of narration, i.e., isnad, is 'bogus' because the New Testament and major part of Old Testament lacks it and above all it is a Muslim argument. By calling the Islamic argument of isnad 'bogus' Katz thought that he is already refuted it. Unfortunately, the Orientalists like Bernard Lewis who read this 'bogus' Islamic tradition and compares it with the Christian scholarship say that:

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.[2]

So, after all this Islamic science of had�th, called 'bogus' by Katz, was so advanced that its Christian counterparts were far far away from its sophistication. Futher where does it sophistication lie?

. . . it would have been easy to invent sayings of Muhammad. Because the cultural background of the Arabs had been oral the evidence that came to be expected was the chain of names of those who had passed on the anecdote containing the saying . . . The study of Traditions rapidly became a distinct branch of the studies of the general religious movement. It was soon realized that false Traditions were in circulation with sayings that Muhammad could not possibly have uttered. The chains of transmitters were therefore carefully scrutinised to make sure that the persons named could in fact have met one another, that they could be trusted to repeat the story accurately, and that they did not hold any heretical views. This implied extensive biographical studies; and many biographical dictionaries have been preserved giving the basic information about a man's teachers and pupils, the views of later scholars (on his reliability as a transmitter) and the date of his death. This biography-based critique of Traditions helped considerably to form a more or less common mind among many men throughout the caliphate about what was to be accepted and what rejected.[3]

If the Muslim traditions have been bogus, how come the Jews did not understand this and went on to use the great works composed by Muslims? Saadia Gaon, the famous Jewish linguist, says:

Saadia expresses himself unreservedly about his indebtness to Arabic authors, who served him as models in the composition of his work. "It is reported," he says, "that one of the worthies among the Ishmaelites, realizing to his sorrow that the people do not use the Arabic language correctly, wrote a short treatise for them. From which they might learn proper usages. Similarly, I have noticed that many of the Israelites even the common rules for the correct usage of our (Hebrew) language, much less the more difficult rules, so that when they speak in prose most of it is faulty, and when they write poetry only a few of the ancient rules are observed, and majority of them are neglected. This has induced me to compose a work in two parts containing most of the (Hebrew) words.[4]

Guillaume informs us in his preface of the book The Legacy Of Islam:

Since the beginning of the nineteenth century there has been a constant recourse to Arabic for the explanation of rare words and forms in Hebrew; for Arabic though more than a thousand years junior as a literary language, is the senior philosophically by countless centuries. Perplexing phenomenon in Hebrew can often be explained as solitary and archaic survivals of the form which are frequent and common in the cognate Arabic. Words and idioms whose precise sense had been lost in Jewish tradition, receive a ready and convincing explanation from the same source. Indeed no serious student of the Old Testament can afford to dispense with a first-hand knowledge in Arabic. The pages of any critical commentary on the Old Testament will illustrate the debt of the Biblical exegesis owes to Arabic.[5]

It turns out that the same tradition which Katz addressed as 'bogus' result in the exegesis of his own scriptures, the Old Testament.

Since Christianity did not have anything like the 'tradition' to evaluate their own material, we see quite a lot of differences. Let us now examine the great tradition of the Church which Katz wants Muslims to trust and also to see which tradition is really bogus.

This document is divided into the following:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Bible - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Protestant -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Roman -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Anglican -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Greek -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Coptic -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Ethiopic -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Syriac - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Fathers - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Clement -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Ignatius -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Didache -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Papias -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Barnabas -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Polycarp -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Hermas -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#SEClement - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#BooksNT - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Inspiration - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#The_Didache -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Epistle_Clement -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Epistle_Barnabas -
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Shepherd_Hermas - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Manuscripts - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Disputed_Books - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/BibleTex.html#Conclusions -
1. Church Tradition & The Bible

It must be made clear that there is nothing like one Bible with a set of books. The number of books in the Bible actually depend upon the Church one follows. Therefore if we follow the Church tradition we end with following Bibles. They differ in number of books in both the Old Testament and the New Testament:

Protestant Church

Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books ( Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.[6]

Roman Catholic Church

The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.[7]

Anglican Church

The Anglican church falls between the Catholic church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the Authorized or King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments.[8]

Greek Orthodox Church

The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.[9] (See below)

Coptic Church

Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.[10]

Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church

Until 1959, the Ethiopic Church was under the jurisdiction of the head of Coptic Church. Hence it is not surprising that its canon of Scripture should parallel in some respects that of the Coptic Church.

The Ethiopic church has the largest Bible of all, and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader," according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.[11]

Bruce Metzger in his book The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development elaborates more on the books accepted by Ethiopic Church. The'broader' Canon of Ethiopic New Testament consists of the following thirty five books:

The four Gospels

Acts

The (seven) Catholic Epistles

The (fourteen) Epistles of Paul

The Book of Revelation

Sinodos (four sections)

Clement

The Book of the Covenant (two sections)

Didascalia

The contents of the last four titles in the list are as follows. The Sinodos is a book of church order, comprising an extensive collection of canons, prayers, and instructions attributed to Clement of Rome.

Clement (Qalementos) is a book in seven parts, communicated by Peter to Clement. It is not the Roman or Corinthian correspondence, nor one of the three parts of the Sinodos that are sometimes called 1, 2, and 3 Clement, nor part of the Syriac Octateuch of Clement.

The Book of Covenant (Mashafa kidan) is counted as two parts. The first part of sixty sections comprises chiefly material on church order; section 61 is a discourse of the Lord to his disciples after his resurrection, similar to the Testamentum Domini.

The Ethiopic Didascalia (Didesqelya) is a book of Church order in forty-three chapters, distinct from the Didascalia Apostolorum, but similar to books I-VII of so-called Apostlic Constitutions.[12]

Syriac Church

Let us also not forget the Syriac Churches which used to deal with Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian which was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Peshitta. Peshitta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament.

This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Peshitta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (AD 431) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.[13]

Peshitta is still followed by the Christians in the sourthern state of Kerala in India.

Still today the official lectionary followed by the Syrian Orthodox Church, with headquarters at Kottayam (Kerala), and the Chaldean Syriac Church, also known as the the Church of the East (Nestorian), with headquarters at Trichur (Kerala), presents lessons from only the twenty-two books of Peshitta, the version to which appeal is made for the settlement of doctrinal questions.[14]

To make the issue clearer, we are here dealing with different number of books of New Testament followed by different churches all over the world. These are not the different translations of the Bible, the argument which Christian missionaries use to brush the problem under the carpet. Calling another church heretical is not going to work the problem out because there was no single book right from the beginning of Christianity which constituted the New Testament as we would see later, inshallah. The New Testament as we see today, depends upon the Church again(!), is a product of centuries worth of metamorphosis. Under "Canon of the New Testament" the Catholic Encyclopedia says:

The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.[15]

So, the great Church tradition has not made up her mind on the Bible.

Now this would be big enough problem for the Christian missionaries to ruminate, inshallah. Let us now go into the issue of what the Apostolic Fathers refer to during their time.

2. Church Tradition & Apostolic Fathers

It is a frequent claim by the Christian missionaries that the Church Fathers believed that the New Testament was considered as 'inspired' Scripture.

Bruce M Metzger, a noted authority on the New Testament, analyzing the Apostolic Fathers viz., Clement of Rome, Ignatius, the Didache, fragments of Papias, Barnabas, Hermas of Rome, and the so-called 2 Clement concludes the following:

Clement Of Rome

By way of summary, we see that Clement's Bible is the Old Testament, to which he refers repeated as Scripture, quoting it with more or less exactness. Clement also makes occasional reference to certain words of Jesus; though they are authoritative to him, he does not appear to enquire how their authenticity is ensured. In two of the three instances that he speaks of remembering 'the words' of Christ or of the Lord Jesus, it seems that he has a written record in mind, but he does not call it a 'gospel'. He knows several of Paul's epistles, and values them highly for their content; the same can be said of the Epistle of the Hebrews with which he is well acquainted. Although these writings obviously possess for Clement considerable significance, he never refers to them as authoritative 'Scripture'.[16]

Ignatius Of Antioch

The upshot of all this is that the primary authority for Ignatius was the apostolic preaching about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, though it made little difference to him whether it was oral or written. He certainly knew a collection of Paul's epistles, including (in the order of frequency of his use of them) 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. It is probable that he knew the Gospels according to Matthew and John, and perhaps also Luke. There is no evidence that he regarded any of these Gospels or Epistles as 'Scripture'.[17]

The Didache

The Didache is a short manual or moral instruction and Church practice. The Church history writer Eusebius and Athanasius even considered to be on the fringe of the New Testament Canon[18]. Assigning the composition of Didache has ranged from first century to fourth century by the scholars, but most of them prefer to assign it in the first half of the second century[19]. Metzger summarizes the book as:

By way of summary, we can see from Didache that itinerant apostles and Prophets still find an important place in the life of the Church, but this authority is declining. Their activity is surrounded by all sorts of precautions and rests ultimately on the authority of the traditional teaching deriving from the Lord, whose manner they must exhibit: 'Not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the ways of the Lord. By their ways, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be distinguished' (xi. 8). The author refers to the gospel, but he cites only words of Jesus. This 'gospel', which is without doubt the Gospel according to Matthew, is not regarded as a necessary source from which the words of the Lord, with indispensable warrants, come to the faithful, but quite simply as a convenient collection of these words.[20]

Papias Of Heirapolis

By way of summary, Papias stands as a kind of bridge between the oral and written stages in the transmission of the gospel tradition. Although he professes to have a marked preference for the oral tradition, one nevertheless sees at work the causes that, more and more, would lead to the rejection of that form of tradition in favour of written gospels. On the whole, therefore, the testimony of Papias concerning the development of the canon of the New Testament is significant chiefly in reflecting the usage of the community in which devotion to oral tradition hindered the development of a clear idea of canonicity.[21]

Barnabas

Epistle of Barnabas is a theological tract. Both Clement of Alexandria and Origen valued the work highly and attributed its composition Barnabas, the companion and co-worker of the apostle Paul.

Metzger summarizes the position of Barnabas concerning the scripture as the following.

By way of summary, one can see that for Barnabas the Scriptures are what we call the Old Testament, including several books outside the Hebrew canon. Most of his contacts with the Synoptic traditions involve simple sentences that might well have been known to a Christian of that time from oral tradition. As against the single instance of his using the formula, 'it is written', in introducing the statement, 'Many are called, but few are chosen', must be placed his virtual neglect of the New Testament. If, on the other hand, he wrote shortly before or after 130, the focus of his subject matter would not make it necessary to do much quoting from New Testament books - if indeed he knew many of them. In either case he provides no evidence for the development of the New Testament canon.[22]

Polycarp Of Smyrna

By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hebrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John. As for the Gospels, he cites as sayings of the Lord phrases that we find in Matthew and Luke. With one exception, none of Polycarp's many allusions is cited as Scripture - and that exception, as we have seen, is held by some to have been mistakenly attributed to the Old Testament. At the same time Polycarp's mind is not only saturated with ideas and phrases derived from a considerable number of writings that later came to be regarded as New Testament Scriptures, but he also displays latent respect for these apostolic documents as possessing an authority lacking in other writings. Polycarp, as Grant remarks, 'clearly differentiates the apostolic age from his own time and, presumably for this reason, does not use the letters of Ignatius as authorities�even though they "contain faith, endurance, and all the edification which pertains to our Lord" (xiii. 2)'.[23]

Hermas Of Rome

By way of summary, it is obvious that Hermas was not given to making quotations from literature; in fact, the only actual book anywhere named and quoted in the Shepherd ( Vis. ii. 3) is an obscure Jewish apocalypse known as the book of Eldad and Modat. Despite reminiscences from Matthew, Ephesians, and James, Hermas makes no comment that would lead us to think that he regarded them as canonical Scripture. From the testimony contained in the Shepherd, it can in any case be observed how uneven during the course of the second century was the development of the idea of the canon.[24]

The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement

This work is not the genuine work of Clement of Rome. This is regarded as an early Christian sermon. The style of this work is different from that of 1 Clement. Both date and composition of this work are difficult to determine. It was probably written around 150 CE. Metzger summarizes the contents of this work as:

By way of recapitulation, the unknown author of 2 Clement certainly knew and used Matthew and Luke, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. There is no trace of the Johannine Gospel or Epistles, or of the Book of Acts. And one can not say more than that he may have known Hebrews, James, and 1 Peter. Of the eleven times he cites words of Jesus, five are not to be found in the canonical Gospels. The presence of these latter, as well as the citation in xi. 2-4 of an apocryphal book of the Old Testament, introduced as 'the prophetic word', shows that our homilist's quotations of divinely authoritative words are not controlled by any strict canonical idea, even in relation to Old Testament writings.[25]

After studying the writings of all the Apostolic Fathers, Bruce Metzger concludes that:

For early Jewish Christians the Bible consisted of the Old Testament and some Jewish apocryphal literature. Along with this written authority went traditions, chiefly oral, of sayings attributed to Jesus. On the other hand, authors who belonged to the 'Hellenistic Wing' of the Church refer more frequently to writings that later came to be included in the New Testament. At the same time, however, they very rarely regarded such documents as 'Scripture'.

Furthermore, there was as yet no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not yet in the full sense canonical. Consequently, it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to ascertain which New Testament books were known to early Christian writers; our evidence does not become clear until the end of second century.[26]

We have evidence of the spotty development and treatment of the writings later regarded as the New Testament in the second and third centuries CE. Gradually written Gospels, and collections of epistles, different ones in different regions, became to be more highly regarded.

So for 200 years or so there was nothing like New Testament to begin with. The great Church tradition did not even bother to collect the 'Scriptures' between two covers!

3. Church Tradition & The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament

Now when the Church tradition finally started to make up her mind on compiling the New Testament various lists of books in the Canons of the Bible were drawn. Bruce Metzger gives the following list of the Canons of the Bible drawn at different times in the 'western' Church. Please note that we still do not have the great deal of idea about how many lists were drawn in the Eastern Churches such as Coptic and Ethiopic. The following are the canons drawn at various points of time in the Church history.

To complete the thoughts about how the New Testament evolved, a brief survey of early lists of the books of the New Testament is necessary. The list is taken from Appendix IV of Bruce Metzger's The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development[27].



Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 12:39am
Originally posted by owen.grandison owen.grandison wrote:

The reason why i say orthodox sunni muslims is because there is a difference between shi'ites, ahmadiyyah and various other sects.  If you are an orthodox sunni muslim you don't believe as they do there are differences in the belief somewhere along the line.  And thats why you fight and kill each other which is a shame because all life is sacred.  So there is denomination in islam.
 
Thankyou for your consideration. But you know owen.g, that to answer your type of questions, any one of us answer, be it shia, sunni or any. I never stand for innocent killings . Very true, life is sacred. WHy don't you teach the same to those kins of yours TAKING AWAY THE INNOCENT LIVES AT PALESTINE. IS NOT LIFE THEN SACRED ?
 

The verses of the qur'aan changed while being revealed to suit the needs of the prophet muhamma's followers.

I said you earlier, kindly don't take up your own interpretations. Let me help you clear your misconception.

The follwoing hadith is a perfect example of  how the verses of the qur'aan were changed to please a blind man:

512. Narrated al-bara: there was revealed: not equal are those believers who sit at home and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah. (4:95)

The prophe said, "call zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and teh scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the inkpot)."  Then he said, "write Not equal are those believers who sit...", and at that time amr bin um maktum, the blinde man was sitting behind the prophet.  He said, "o allah's messenger!  What is your order for me (as regards to the above verse) as i am a blind man?"  So instead dof teh above verse, the following verse was revealed: Not equal are those believers who sit at home except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.)  and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah." (4:95)
sahih al bukhari, volume 6, page 480

Did the prophet muhammad do this himself? 

Hope you noticed the line highlighted in green above. Well, now look at its word, "revealed". Thats your answer. It  was a revelation. Prophet Muhammad {Pbuh} never added a word by himself.
 
This hadith does not mention that the angel gabriel, who brough him the revelation ofthe qur'aan intervened at all to change  the verse.
 
Revelations were  not necessarily be brought by only Jibrael AS. There are three forms of revelations thru which the Quran was revealed over Prophet Muhammad.
 
i. Direct inspiration of the speech of Allah into the soul.
ii. Directly hearing the speech of Allah from behind a screen.
iii. Conveying the message through Angel Jibrail (AS).
 
Now the revelation in the hadith which you had been discussing must be in either 1st or 3rd form. Even, if Jibrail must have bought it, its not possible for a normal person, to see them , except by Allah's will. We do have angels with us, we do have satan tempting us, as well. Do we see them ?




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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 1:03am
[QUOTE=owen.grandison]In another book which was published in 1980 A.D. we read a story of how the prophet muhammad changed a verse of the qur'aan to please the idolatrous tribes in mecca.

"Regarding the rumour of quraish's acceptance of islam historians have mentioned the event of "gharaniq."  According to them it so happened that once the holy prophet confused while reciting surah al-najm (chapter 53).  When he reached on the following verses:

"Have ye thought upon al-lat and al-uzza, and al-manat, the third, the other". (53:19-20)

He recited: "These idols are respected and honoured, and their intercession is acceptable."
 
Its a refutation . All false

Afterwards the holy prophet recited the whole chapte of al-najm and in the end performed "sijdah al-talawat".  The non-believers (idolaters) of mecca who were present on that occasion also performed the "sidjad" and spread the rumour that muhammad (sallalahu alaihi wa sallam) accepted their idols.  The next day when angel gabriel came to the holy prophet and heard the chapter al-najm from him he pointed out the mistake and told him that part was not a revelation.

Acc to books of hadith - Ibn `Abbas said, "The Prophet prostrated upon reciting An-Najm and the Muslims, idolators, Jinns and mankind who were present prostrated along with him.

There was nothing like spread of rumour, or gabriel pointing a mistake. No where in Qur'an or hadith , will you find such statement.

Muhammad the final messenger, dr. majid ali khan, idarah-i adabiyat-i delli, india, 1980 A.D., pages 86-87

I have n't read this person. But i see that he has n;t produced any source, from where he has taken this. Obviously, he was not present during the days of Prophet, there must be some source na !

Rest part of your post, when time permits.Before that i wish you to answer


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."



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