Was Jesus A " Jew"
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Topic: Was Jesus A " Jew"
Posted By: Nazarene
Subject: Was Jesus A " Jew"
Date Posted: 12 December 2008 at 6:11pm
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my search leads me to differ.
first) jesus had to be fathered by a man. [ a judean ]
second) he was from galilie. in semaria- a nazerean.
the "nazerenes" had thier own temple in jerusalam( it's called the church of the apostles today) and also one on (mt. carmel) where thay practiced thier own faith .and did not participate in the jewish cult . and considered thier temple and practices false as well as the scriptures they used .
third )he spoke aramaic not hebrew.
also he often spoke of them as " the jews " as if they were seperate from him.
jesus was no jew . he was an isralite. there's a diffrence. he said the jews were also " lost"
take this in love and peace
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Replies:
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 7:30am
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Assalamu alaikum. Nazarene deciphered: jesus was no jew . he was an isralite. there's a diffrence. he said the jews were also " lost"
Response: (1) Philologically No!. Jesus was a Jew because the name as testified by the OT and the holy Qur'an applied to the Children of Israel alive after the return of captivity. (11) Jesus was not a Jew as he was from the tribe of Levi. (111) Allah did not call Jesus a Jew but a Muslim bowing to the covenant of his forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, Ishamel and Jacob. (1v) Jesus was the first to preach the holy Qur'an.
Friendship |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 11:06am
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Actually, according to Rabbinical Law, your religion is determined by your Matrilienal Line. Your tribe is determined by your father's line.
Mary was a Jew by religion...therefore, in giving birth to Jesus, she would have given him that religion. Judaism. Rabbinical Law also talks has provisions for adoption. In that case, Joseph, Mary's husband was a Jewish Rabbi. Therefore Jesus was a Jew. By blood, by religion and through adoption by tribe. |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 11:07am
| PS: If my grandfather was removed from the equation I would have been considered a Jew because of my mother's family line. However, as my grandfather is in the mix. I am a gentile because my grandmother was Welsh. |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 1:30pm
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Assalamu alaikum. Angela posted: Therefore Jesus was a Jew. By blood, by religion and through adoption by tribe. Response: Technically I am wright. I do not consider the apocryphal state of the NT. They initially called themselves the children of Israel and Allah accepted. I think the name 'Jew' was stolen from the Qur'an as Muhammad called them with that name in Madina. I do not think Ezra called them "Jews" since after compiling the Torah he dared called them so in defiance of Exodus 3:13-15. I met a lot of Jews who confirmed to me what you said. The Qur'an in reality told the Children of Israel what was their true position. They are Muslims. Friendship. |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 4:01pm
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Jew specifically refers to the tribe of Judah. To be a "jew" use must be of that tribe. Thus, Jesus, by my arguments was a Jew.
Also, Judah was the name of the Kingdom in which Jesus lived. He was also a Jew by citizenry. Jew is not just a religious thing. Jew is a race, a nationality and a tribal identity. You could be a "Jewish" Muslim. Easily. If a man who was of the tribe of Judah converted to Islam, he would lose his religious identity, but not that of his race or tribe. |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 5:49pm
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.........he would lose his religious identity, but not that of his race or tribe.......
my point exactly! his family both mother and father left the jewish faith for the pure " NAZERENE" faith.
thus " not jewish" !------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 7:17pm
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But, what Jesus was teaching was a continuation/evolution of what came before....
And there is no 'Nazerene' faith. Gah...what crap is that. If you are a "Christian" its Old Testament is the foundation of the New Testament...its all the same religion..... Jesus completed the prophecies and Christianity is a continuation of Judaism... If you are Muslim...its all one continuous religion where people fall away periodically because of twisted interpretations. Jesus was a JEW. Only an anti-semtic crackpot would want to or need to make him anything else. My Lord was born to a Jewish Mother and was a continuation of the Prophets and Kings who were of the line of David (a Jew). He worshipped in a Jewish Temple. He observed Jewish rights like Passover. His followers were Jews who called him Rabbi. Christianity is a "jewish" faith...there is no "Nazerene" faith. That's some made up term. |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 7:26pm
Read !
"He shall be called a Nazorean!" (Matthew 2:23).
"We have, in fact, found this man a pestilent fellow, an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5,)
http://www.essene.com/ - www.essene.com/
http://www.essene.com/What%20is%20a%20Nazarene.htm - http://www.essene.com/What%20is%20a%20Nazarene.htm
the true gospel of jesus: READ !
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_1.html - http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_1.html
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/index.html - www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/index.html
Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe to be those who say: We are Nazarenes. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
(Qur'an Surah al-Maedah verse 82)
The Qur'an uses the word "Nazarene" for Christians, however notice that the verse is not referring to all Christians, but those Christians who actually call themselves Nazarenes.
the above quote is from forum member Sawtul Khilafah as a responce to another post.
Here is a quote from fellow member Minuteman:
Moreover, It is known that there was group of people called Nazarene in the time of Jesus and some say that Jesus himself belonged to that group. They used to wear white clothes. The Joseph of Armethia who took the body of Jesus after it came down from cross, he belonged to the Nazarene.
I ffel that I read all that some where (perhaps in the gospel of Barnabas, but I cannot remember where I read it). It was definitely a book. Perhaps the title of the book was "Ben Hur".
That Joseph was a Nazarene and he had an underground tomb made out of rock for his own burial. He was a very rich and influential man. He approached Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
Pilate was surprised and said , "Has he died so quickly?"(thats another topic)
i come to this forum of the nazerenes . the true faith of jesus which was distroyed by the gentile christain church. whos rites and practices and creed were re-established by muhammad in the qur'an . and the nazerenes re-established the true faith that was before them.
why do you think he called the jews lost! why do you think he corrected them at every turn? and you say see, we must be as they are!
the same evil that corrupted the jews and thier law has corrupted the new testement also.
jeremiah 8:8' How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely jeremiah is speaking of the same old testament thats in the bible now! corrupted!!
also you state the following:
If you are a "Christian" its Old Testament is the foundation of the New Testament...its all the same religion..... Jesus completed the prophecies and Christianity is a continuation of Judaism...
my reply:
hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear .
let me add we cannot distain The Book for it holds great truth in between. ( those who are brought in by the spirit are led astay by it also. ) WHY DID JESUS SPEAK IN PARABALES??
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Angela wrote:Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 8:19pm
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Oh, I'm sorry...you're one of those...
My Aunt and Uncle were Nazerene's for a short while...we call them "Holy Rollers" back home. They eventually left... I don't need to say anymore. I though I was engaging a Protestant. |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 8:36pm
peace
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 7:23am
A jew to a nazerene, is a similitude of a catholic to a protestant or a shihite to a sufi.
peace and love to you as you futher your enlightenment.
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 1:01pm
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from angela:
Jesus was a JEW. Only an anti-semtic crackpot would want to or need to make him anything else.
Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael,Jacob,were seminites not jews, JEWS{ Judea-Judean} DID NOT EXSIST WHEN GOD MADE HIS COVENENTS WITH THE HOUSE OF ABRAHAM. those covenents cover MANY , MANY PEOPLE!! even David and Solomon were not JEWS! { although they were "judean"}
the JEWISH rabbinical religious cult did not exsist till around 500-400 bce. after they left Babalon, hence the polution of pagen practices.
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 2:10pm
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By his belief he was neither a Jew nor a Chrsitian, if he believed in One God and worshiped His Creator, and he was in submisson to God, then he was a Muslim.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 4:29am
Friendship,
Please clarify your statements above. And please give sources, because your post is very contradictory.
They initially called themselves the children of Israel and Allah accepted. I think the name 'Jew' was stolen from the Qur'an as Muhammad called them with that name in Madina
What are you trying to explain. I really cannot see head or tail.
Tks. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 4:49am
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Abraham, Moses, Jesus all worshipped The One True God.
They submitted to the law of The Creator. So they were Muslims.
They were neither Jews nor Christians.
If people say that the Jesus was a Jew, then Jesus was worshipping to a god that was racist. And of course that was impossible. And some people say that he was a Christian. That is also an impossibility. Nothing in the Bible says that Jesus was a Christian or that the religion of Jesus was Christianity. Nothing! ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 5:58am
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Assalamu alikum. I posted that :They initially called themselves the children of Israel and Allah accepted. I think the name 'Jew' was stolen from the Qur'an as Muhammad called them with that name in Madina Nur Ilahi responded: Please clarify your statements above. And please give sources, because your post is very contradictory.
What are you trying to explain. I really cannot see head or tail.
My response: First of all recall the time death was approaching Jacob (Ya'qub) as revealed in Qur'an 2:133 and others. Abul Ala Maududi quoted Talmud quoting this verse. See his commentary chapter 2:133 vol.1 p113. Jacob was named 'Israel' and the 'One who wrestled with God and defeated God' according to their history. As they called themselves Children of Israel (a name not given to them by Allah) instead of Muslims, Allah called them with that name after the Apostleship of Muhammad. This was the case also with the Christians, from Qur'an chapter 5:14, "And from those who call themsleves christians" . Here Allah is reporting what they called themselves. Remember also the case of Zayd when Allah said We should call him with his father's name. Allah never called anyone with a name besides a 'Muslim'. You know that they were also addressed as Ahl-al-Kitab.
I hope you know that there are many commentary and translation of the holy Qur'an each dealing on specific subject matter. Please try to possess such books. If you carefully study the OT and NT espeially also their commentary, you will come to the conclusion that the OT and NT were written after the Revelation of the Qur'an. Friendship |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 10:08am
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Fiendship writes: "you will come to the conclusion that the OT and NT were written after the Revelation of the Qur'an. "
I agree with you on that but then with that conclusion, they (OT/NT) are of no authority to us, and we the Muslims should not (and we don't) base any of our argument on its contents other than only to show referances from them to counter a claim by those who believe it to be God's word, without alterations.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 5:59pm
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Actually Friendship, the OT or Tanakh was written down from oral tradition around 600BC by Jews in Babylon, Alexandria and other locations. The NT's earliest books are about 60AD - 100AD. The Quran was revealed in the 7th Century...if anything the Quran is a continuation of the previous two books.
The problem here is one must separate the term Jew into the secular. You are talking about a time period where of the two Israelite kingdoms only the Kingdom of Judah was surviving. The 10 tribes had been smashed and scattered and the "Israelites" were no more, it was only the tribe of Judah with a few Levite priests. Those monotheistic worshipers in the area of the Kingdom of Judah were called Jews by their comtemporaries. Muslim (an arabic word) was not used to describe monotheistic followers of God did not come into practice until after Muhammed (pbuh) was called as a Prophet. One thing that can be agreed upon is that the line of Prophets descended through the tribe of Judah to John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazerath. Despite what came after them, they lived and "died" as Jews. They worshipped in the Jewish Temple which meant they had to circumsised, bar mitzvah'd and purified as Jews/members of the faith of the Jewish people. There success or failure at changing the hearts of their brethern. But, we have to recognize that even though Muhammed (pbuh) was born to a pagan family, but returned Islam to his people, didn't change his "Arabness." As citizens of Judah, as members of the tribe of Judah, John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazerath were jews. Their religious definition can be debated until the Last Day, but in the end they were Messangers, Jewish Men and great teachers. I always find any denial of their birthrites to smack of anti-semitism and racism. Its not about being of the "chosen" people or God being racist. Its a simple tribal/political/racial fact that Jesus was a Jew. I don't believe God is a racist, but God has promised blessings to the progeny of Abraham and Isaac....he did this also with Ishmael. Recognizing these covenants is important because they are promises from the Lord to his people. |
Posted By: Hyposonic
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 7:46pm
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No offense Angela I find your post enlightening but also sad. With such a great being who possess unimaginable power we are still arguing about who is chosen. Why does God bless a certain people and not others? To me the Bible smells of ethnocentrism in my opinion. ------------- "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 4:54pm
well said!
we teach are kids all men are created equal {but we'er the ones going to heaven and those over there are not.}
we say " god loves the rightious " {but only by OUR deffinition of the term}
i asked a beloved of mine why he was a baptist ,
he said: the others " didn't keep it right" .
i said :" but you use the same book "
he replied :" his church keeps to the { true interpetaion .}"
i said : but i thought the bible was the difinitive word?
he replied: it truly is the difinitive
i said : according to your interpetaion.
leland
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 December 2008 at 11:54am
I think there is a difference between blessings and supremacy. Those who are obedient to God earn rewards in this life and in the next. Sometimes those blessings are so great that they follow the family. Father Abraham had two sons, each of those two sons have expanded to millions and millions of people. People who don't even know they are descended of Father Abraham. Now, there is a saying in the Book of Mormon over and over again "Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day.' Blessings are not permanent...they can be taken away if you fall from Grace. In the Book of Mormon, the children of Nephi are told that as long as they keep the commandments they will prosper, but if they fall, they will dwindle. Thus, when they fell into wickedness they were destroyed. Abraham's blessings were that his sons would build great nations and be blessed, but if those children, Israeli or Arab fail to obey God, they don't receive those blessings. Its not about racism. Prophets have been blessed over and over, but is it not the truth that with few exceptions most of the Prophets are of the line of Abraham. I mean, I would not be shocked in the least if Muhammed (pbuh) was a direct descendant of Ishmael. However, does this mean that an Indonesian cannot earn blessings. No, of course not. He has the ability just like everyone else. God is not a racist. He created us all. The Bible however, does smack of racism. I will not deny that. The Bible has sexism all through it too. Books labelled heresy by the early church talked about early Christian teachers being women and referred to Mary Magdalene, Martha and the Other Mary as disciples with the same status as the men. But, when the writings were gathered to the "official" collection known as the Bible, it was by men. And we all know that humans are fallible. None of this changes the fact that in the Talmud, Bible and Quran, the blessings are described has being on the descendants of Abraham and Isaac. 37:113 in the Quran, but I recently read this whole chapter and the blessings are described for other prophets too. "The Chosen" is an arrogant claim. We are all called and chosen of God. Its our responsibily to answer that call and deserve to be chosen. |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 06 January 2009 at 3:41pm
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well said angela, i see much truth reply , thank you.
love
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 07 January 2009 at 1:33am
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Assalamu alaikum. Angela Posting: I like discussing with you for most of what you say is an explanation of the Teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. May Allah bless you!. Now Muhammad Rasulullah is the only Quraysh whose lineage from both parents is traceable to Ismael and Abraham. I am now seriously contemplating that Muhammad Rasulullah from his mothers side and grandfather might have had cousins from the Chidren of Israel. Abdul Mutallab was a very influential man in Madina and likewise I think the Banu Qaynuqa (or one of the Jewish tribes). There could have been marriages rom the two groups. I also read the book of Mormon but did not pay too much attention to the contents. The Children of Israel were specially chosn by Allah for teaching Islam to mankind and not for the purpose of them to be insulted and abused. No one is immune from the wrath and displeasure of Allah on doing what they did against the Message of Allah. This is the whole teaching of Muhammad. They should be pitied (if a good word to use) for unlike the followers of Muhammad their Shari'a ws lost for year about 5 centuries. They were only to read it on the sabbatical years. Only the Levi tribe were appointed as Priests and any tribe doing their job will be killed. So what do you expect from them? The holy Qur'an clearly mentioned that there were among them many that obeyed Musa. Probably no one committed any sin during the period of Joshua, except that one who disobeyed the Lord in the baltle of Ai. To abuse the Jews or hate them is indirectly abusing Allah and hating Him. The Qur'an on the other hand is protected from adulteration, alteration etc. But those reading it do not even understand its contents lest to invent a needle! Friendship. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 12:09am
"JEW OT Words - yehuCdiC ~YDIwHYi, 3064~]
YDIwHYi yehuCdiC is derived patronymically from the term HDFwHYi yehuCdaMh (i.e., Judah) and is translated "Jew" or more precisely "man from, or inhabitant of Judah." The term occurs around eighty times, and is used only from the exilic period onward. Previously, the inhabitants of Judah were referred to generally as "Israelites" or "sons of Israel."Mundane usage of the term in a narrative context is found, for example, in 2 Kgs. 16:6; 25:25; Neh. 1:2; Esth. 3:10; 4:3ff.; 8:1ff.; 9:1ff.; Jer. 32:12; 52:28ff. In the prophetic context of Zech. 8:23, it is recorded that people will be drawn to the faith of the Jewish people, and Gentiles will take hold of the robe of a Jew, wishing to accompany him in worship of Yahweh. NT Words - Ioudaios ~ �Ioudai�oj, 2453GKNUM>~]�Ioudai�oj Ioudaios refers to a Jew, a person belonging to the Jewish race. The term occurs around two hundred times.Mundane usage in narrative description is found in Matt. 28:15; Mark 7:3; Luke 7:3; John 3:1. The magi in Matt. 2:2 refer to Jesus as "King of the Jews"; the same title is used in Jesus� trial before Pontius Pilate (cf. Matt. 27:11; Mark 15:2ff.; Luke 23:3; John 18:33). The crowd mocks Jesus with this title (Matt. 27:29); and a sign with this ascription is placed on the cross above Jesus� head (cf. Matt. 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19ff.). During the earthly ministry of Jesus, Jewish people were often hostile towards him (cf. John 2:18; 5:16ff.; 6:41; 7:1; 10:31ff.; 19:7). John 4:9 mentions the Jews� hatred of Samaritans. Jewish opposition to the missionary enterprise of the apostle Paul is frequently alluded to in the book of Acts (cf. Acts 9:23; 13:45; 14:19; 20:3; 21:27; 23:12; 25:7). The early Christians were likewise despised by the Jewish community on the whole (cf. Acts 14:2; 17:1). Ironically, the Jewish people were initially the sole targets, or recipients, of Paul�s gospel preaching (cf. Acts 11:19; 13:5; 17:7). According to Paul, genuine "Jewishness" requires the process of "heart circumcision" to take place - that is, renewal of one�s heart attitude to God as revealed in the person of Christ (cf. Rom. 2:29). Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28 make it clear that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile believers in the sight of God, who accepts all who call upon him in genuine faith, Jew and Gentile alike."-Expository Dictionary of Bible Words Ed. by S. D. Renn Yes Jesus was a Jew, when Jesus was a young child, the astrologers came, inquiring: "Where is the one born king of the Jews?" (Mtthew 2:1, 2) On Jesus� torture stake Pilate put the title "Jesus the Nazarene the King of the Jews."�John 19:19. "The King of The Jews" has to be a Jew. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 12:52pm
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Hi everyone,
based on what I read so far its seems clear:
1) that Jesus, according to the Bible did not bring a new religion or doctrine rather was bringing back people to follow what was already there with them in practice honestly and purely.
2) Trinity was never a principle of Jewish teachings nor any teachings ever known to mankind.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 22 March 2009 at 12:29am
Where do you get your information from Jesus was from the tribe of Judah not Levi and what you want to assume that Curran was written in Jesus's time if he was the first to preach the quran, then what happened to first century Muslims
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