Shia And Sunni
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: Matters/topics, related to various sects, are discussed where only Muslims who may or may not belong to a sect take part.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13955
Printed Date: 17 December 2024 at 10:36pm
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Topic: Shia And Sunni
Posted By: hossain
Subject: Shia And Sunni
Date Posted: 10 January 2009 at 1:23pm
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Sallaam'alaykum to all brothers and sisters.
My name is Hossain, and i live in California and follow the Jafari School of thought. The main Shia school of thought. I accidentally fell upon this forum googling something and was very intrigued by the conversations going on here. The topic that landed upon was the one if shia's believe in the present Quran. and just in case that wasnt solidified in that topic. the answer is YES. I am ethnically from Iran. and Iranians are a very large majority of Shia's in the Islamic world. I also speak on behalf of the Iraqi Shia's, for I have many Iraqi friends who are also shia, and i know their views also. We all believe in the same Quran. thats why our religion is perfect. its the only religion with an untouched book. yes, many have come by and forged fake pages and tried to add them to the Quran, and some "special" people actually fell for it... sad i know. and one more thing. IN NO WAY do Shias believe that Imam Ali (a.s) was intended to be the bearer of the Quran. Allah makes no mistakes, and the Prophet (saw)was the one to bear the Quran. those who say that are heretics i assure you... i have heard that rumor before and was in shock. it doesnt even make logical sense for a Muslim to think that God or his angels are even CAPABLE of making mistakes. its impossible. i had to get that out of the way lol that one was driving me crazy :D i am honestly heart warmed to see discussions like this going online. and i instantly joined the forum and was hoping we could have discussions on our differences. there are things at times i dont want to ask my Sunni friends (and trust me all of my school friends are) cuz itll make it kinda awkward but online it should be easier :) and i know there are more questions for me than for me for you guys. and i want to make it verrryyy clear that i want to make no separation between our religion. we are ALL Muslims and all recite Ash'hadoh an la illaha illallah wa Mohammadan rasullallah. We are all of the same religion, and i want to compare the different interpretations we have on some religious issues.:) -- Hossain Mostaghim inshaAllah remember to keep Ghaza in all of your prayers... |
Replies:
Posted By: hossain
Date Posted: 10 January 2009 at 1:27pm
| I think a topic like this can help us understand our different interpretations and bring us closer one by one and unite us. We are all fingers of one hand, we need to learn to work with one another to make a fist. a fist that stands strong, against all injustices. For example, Ghaza at the present moment... |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 11 January 2009 at 11:20am
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So you are familiar that some say that there are certain she'ee who say that the Qur'an was supposed to be entrusted to Ali(RadiAllahuAnhu) with the revelation? I have heard this as well, long before I came to this website. I wouldnt say that its totally impossible for a group of people to be out there like this, there are so many branches and sects that have sprung forth from Shi'ism..its not out of the question that these people are out there. ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 12 January 2009 at 12:43pm
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frankly br talib....i have travelled a lot in majority shia coutries and met loads of people...but i couldnt find ONE person who beliefs Imam Ali (a.s) shud hav got the quran (maazallah)....its a baseless accusation...it does not exist...ya some wrong ghullat beliefs r dere...but this one does not exist at all..
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Posted By: hossain
Date Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:29pm
| I agree with brother Asda. I hadnt heard of that either, till i saw it written in this forum. to tell you the truth i was in shock when i read it. i know almost all of the beliefs of Shia, and that is not one of them. and thats too big a thing to be not known lol. |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:46pm
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Assalamu Alaikum Subhan'Allah There is however such a concept of Taqiyaa.. Im sure you may be away of it somewhat. Do we know the extent of all the "ghullat" belief systems out there? When some of this people hide their beliefs on purpose? Alhamduillah, Allah will preserve His religion. This is really not very important..whether these people exist or not. Some say there are people like this, others like yourself say no...Allahu alim. ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 4:46am
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There are
certain she'ee who say that the Qur'an was supposed to be entrusted to
Ali(RadiAllahuAnhu) with the revelation? I am not sure if I understand
what it means. Could you please explain more what exactly it says? |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 7:00am
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Assallamualaikum Brother Hussain, welcome to the forums. Hope to see you around, and thankyou for clarifying that misconception. . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 9:07am
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Assalamu Alaikum I can give you brothers and sisters here my personal story, with a she'ee brother named Ali, from Lebanon. He told me that every year, on the anniversary of Ali's(RadiAllahuAnhu) birthday(being the lunar calendar, Im sure this shifts every year), that the doors of the Kaaba, open up by themselves! Wa'Allahi, he said this to me. ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 12:27pm
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Dear Talib_Asadullah
I am fully aware of all the ghullat and nussairi practices and beliefs....and frankly none of them believe in this...even if they are on the wrong path... now the taqayyah thing u hav brought up...well just to let u know...the extremist anti-shia use this to save themselves dats it...if we say that Imam Ali (a.s) was a slave of Allah (s.w.t), they say u r doing taqayyah and the the real shia belief is dat u consider him god (maazallah)...which is wrong...and for a fact, these people try to teach us wat is our belief according to them....and want to lissen (from us) watever they like ...otherwise everything else is taqayyah for them.... so i usually call this the "taqayya cloth" for anti-shia to save themselves wen they are having a hard time in a debate...thats it....if u dont believe me then u can visit any random mosque and ask anybody about this....u will know the truth... |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 2:38pm
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Assalamu Alaikum From my limited understanding, Taqiyyah was a practice that came about because the Imam's were being assassinated and poisoned.. so it was life threatening to expose or make public;views i.e. "Shia" that went against The Consensus i.e. "Sunni". I pray that She'ee here dont think that Im against you, Im not. I Love anyone who says "Laa ilah Ill Allah, Muhammdan Rasullah". Im just bringing up these certain issues. One question I would like to ask any Shia here is this... If Ali(radiallahuanhu) became the First Rashidun Khilafah..then what? Wouldnt he have done the same as Abu Bakr As-Saddiq, Umar Al-Farooq(Radiallahuanhuma)? Ali(RA) followed the Sunnah like the rest of them. He embodied the Sunnah, like the rest. The main point is, what would have been the difference if Ali was first Khilafah??? ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 13 January 2009 at 3:37pm
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The title should be Shia and Muslims due to the following reasons: Every child born is born on fitrah i.e., Muslim and it the parent that gives him his religion or the absence of it.... Three progenitors of the three main line religions! We say they were supposed to be Muslims but Judeo /Christen got the currency! Why cuz people put bunch of nonsense into it based on their egos and ignorance or the influence of sect originators! Look at the verities of Judaism! Judaism it was supposed to be Islam...OK that is asking too much...But then Orthodox has God in it; Conservative may be; but what is this the Reformed wow the God is history so is judgment day and it is good enough to be the Jews... meaning the Hebrews... meaning children of Abraham...And they want all the goodies here and now so go after the world .Do you see the picture?
The Christians claim redemption cuz Jesus(a) got crucified and the Shiane Ali claim both their claim being related and cuz Hussain(r) got killed at Karbala and that land became a holy land that shiiTs carry even to Kabbah for their prayers! Just Imagine the dirt of Karbala taking preference than Haram sharifs!
And you know these Ismaeils have a weird ism and their religion is business based! Almost like the Jews! I hope some one can come up with the answers! I am sorry I posed too many of them............. ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: hossain
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 12:55am
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what i mean by that is on this forum i saw something that said that some people believe that Shias believe that the Quran should have been revealed to Imam Ali. but this is false. REALLY false haha
just something i figured definitly needed clarifying. and i dont see all the fuss of busting out different proofs to prove that shias dont believe that cuz if we dont believe it, we dont believe it haha if it was something we believed then thats when u start busting out proof. but astakhfurallah... that is not true by anymeans |
Posted By: hossain
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 12:56am
and thank you Chrysalis for the warm welcome 
very much appreciated :D |
Posted By: hossain
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 1:08am
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Brother Talib,
by NOO means do i feel hatred coming from you. dont worry :) i appreciate the questions actually. i really do. about the doors of the Kaba opening... yea, thats another myth lol sorry to burst ur bubble lool jkkkkk but here is why the split occurred: Before the Prophet passed away he asked for a piece of paper so he could write down that Imam Ali is to rule after him. But Abu Bakr said that there was no need and that he was delusional and not feeling well. The thing is, the prophet declares the word of Allah. Just to say that the Prophet was delusional or that he wasnt feeling well enough to know what he was saying... astaghfurallah. you see how this came about? and it continues from descendant to descendant of the Prophet... when the Prophets family was killed off one by one... that was what separated the Muslims. i say separated because we are all still Muslims. brothers and sisters. i never will find the right to disrespect or to love less my Sunni brother, and i expect the same back. My Sunni friends never force their beliefs on me and not i to them. i just think all of us should be aware of one another. its with knowledge and understanding that we can make our bond strong and stand against everything that comes at the Muslim world. For the first thing the enemies of Islam are doing is separating Muslims and having them go at each other... its depressing really.. |
Posted By: hossain
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 1:10am
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Sign Reader, i promise to answer all those questions tomorrow. its 1 am and those are way too many questions haha
till tomorrow goodnight :) |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 12:11pm
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dear br Talib_Asadullah
please ignore this person sign*reader cuz i hav noticed that he is an anti shia...even though i can answer every single question of his...but i dont wanna waste time... your question has basically 2 dimentions.... one is looking at taqayyah and the second at the khilafat of Imam Ali (a.s)... First we will look into taqayya.. Uptill now...ure knowledge says that it was an "invention" much later after the prophet (s.a.w)...this is wrong... For a fact, i would just like to let u know that for the lovers of Ahle Bayt (a.s), the quran is hujjat on us and no body can contradict whats written in the quran...and the quran u believe and the quran we believe is da same...whoever says otherwise is a lier.... taqayya as u know can only be donw when there is fear of loss of life respect etc...and its da last option...here is wat quran says: "Anyone who after accepting faith in Allah utters unbelief except under compulsion his heart remaining firm in faith but such as open their breast to unbelief on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty" Surah An-Nahal, verse 106 transliteration by Abdullah Yusuf Ali ihope this clarifies to u that the roots of taqayya are there in quran as well...but can only be used in worst conditions... since there is no fear of any shia's life or respect etc, please dont accuse us here of doing taqayyah... secondly the khilafat.. what difference does it make if the khilafat of Imam Ali (a.s) is 1st or the 4th?? well it does make a difference when there are things done by the early rashidite caliph which were against the rulings of the Prophet (s.a.w)....and thus going against the sunnah....and example is "bringing back marwan bin hakam by Uthman and awarding him the position of governer of madina when everybody knows that his family was exiled by the Prophet (s.a.w)"....do u think a person who is exiled by the prophet (s.a.w) shud be given a respectable postion in society?? inshallah if u want to discuss this topic in detail we can do so.. about the story of the door u heard....it si better if u confirm such stuff from a very famous source....just a mere word by a layman cannot be considered hujjah.....u shud not judge a religion by its people...u shud better judge us by our scholars... |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 1:30pm
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hossain wrote:Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 2:33pm
Assalamu Alaikum I understand Taqqiya, and the Ayah you gave is relevant. Alhamduillah. SubhanAllah.. I havent accused anybody of doing this, I brought it up to put it out there that if some people hold these beliefs, they might hide them from people. Are there further examples of the Rashidun Khilafah(RadiAllahuAnhum) going against the Sunnah? The example that you stated, I am unfamilar with, could you provide me with external information to help further my understanding? In regards to Uthman(RadiAllahuAnhu): Abu Huraira(RAA) reported Allah's Apostle (SAWS) as saying: "The servant (who conceals) the faults of others in this world, Allah would conceal his faults on the Day of Resurrection". (Sahih Muslim--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=032&translator=2&start=0&number=6267 - #032 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=032&translator=2&start=0&number=6267#6267 - #6267 ) May we be vigilant in the Reminder,Ameen. In regards to the "door" story..Its just an example I wanted to share with people. ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 4:12pm
Brother Talib; Salaam: I need to put my two cents in here please excuse me for a sec... asda....You are in our home (Let me remind you IC is Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamah's site ) you aught to learn some manners before brushing aside... or I forgot if any one who doesn't have respect for the Sahabas who were fathers in law and son in law of the Prophet(s) besides ....how could I expect any better ... In debate either answer or you loose by default ... Others may have some comments about what you say my man.... So don't get too uptight and know it all .... ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 5:11pm
Wa Alaikum Salam Alhamduillah,You dont have to ask me for premission to speak brother/sister! This discussion is open to anyone, your opinion holds just as much weight as mine. ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 5:35pm
When we are in good terms at this discussion, why do you wish those questions to be ignored ? Did you find any such word which may seem Anti-shiate ? Those answers may clear many of the misconceptions between us. Okay, if you don't want to answer -- Other two member Yahya and Hussain, may answer it. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 8:36pm
Assalamu Alaikum. Its not that I consider it a myth or not, this is just what a She'ee told me. In regards to the will... Narrated Al-Aswad(RAA): In the presence of 'Aisha(RAA) some people mentioned that the Prophet(SAWS) had appointed 'Ali(RAA) by will as his successor. 'Aisha(RAA) said, "When did he(SAWS) appoint him(RAA) by will? Verily when he(SAWS) died he(SAWS) was resting against my chest (or said: in my lap) and he(SAWS) asked for a wash-basin and then collapsed while in that state, and I could not even perceive that he(SAWS) had died, so when did he(SAWS) appoint him by will?" (Sahih Bukhari--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=51&translator=1&start=0&number=4 - #51 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=51&translator=1&start=0&number=4#4 - #4 ) Narrated Al-Aswad(RAA): It was mentioned in the presence of 'Aisha(RAA) that the Prophet had appointed 'Ali(RAA) as successor by will. Thereupon she said, "Who said so? I saw the Prophet, while I was supporting him against my chest. He asked for a tray, and then fell on one side and expired, and I did not feel it. So how (do the people say) he appointed 'Ali as his successor?" (Sahih Bukhari--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=59&translator=1&start=0&number=736 - #59 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=59&translator=1&start=0&number=736#736 - #736 ) Narrated Talha(RAA): I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi 'Aufa(RAA), "Did the Prophet(SAWS) make a will (to appoint his successor or bequeath wealth)?" He replied, "No." I said, "How is it prescribed then for the people to make wills, and they are ordered to do so while the Prophet did not make any will?" He said, "He made a will wherein he recommended Allah's Book." (Sahih Bukhari--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=61&translator=1&start=0&number=540 - #61 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=61&translator=1&start=0&number=540#540 - #540 ) Hadith about Abu Bakr(RAA) Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad(RAA): 'Aisha said, "O my head!" Allah's Apostle(SAWS) said, "If that (i.e., your death) should happen while I am still alive, I would ask Allah to forgive you and would invoke Allah for you." 'Aisha said, "O my life which is going to be lost! By Allah, I think that you wish for my death, and if that should happen then you would be busy enjoying the company of one of your wives in the last part of that day." The Prophet said, "But I should say, 'O my head!' I feel like calling Abu Bakr and his son and appoint (the former as my successors lest people should say something or wish for something. Allah will insist (on Abu Bakr becoming a Caliph) and the believers will prevent (anyone else from claiming the Caliphate)," or "..Allah will prevent (anyone else from claiming the Caliphate) and the believers will insist (on Abu Bakr becoming the Caliph)." (Sahih Bukhari--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=89&translator=1&start=0&number=324 - #89 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=89&translator=1&start=0&number=324#324 - #324 ) A good Hadith about Umar(RAA) Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun(RAA): I saw 'Umar bin Al-Khattab a few days before he was stabbed in Medina. He was standing with Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman and 'Uthman bin Hunaif to whom he said, "What have you done? Do you think that you have imposed more taxation on the land (of As-Swad i.e. 'Iraq) than it can bear?" They replied, "We have imposed on it what it can bear because of its great yield." 'Umar again said, "Check whether you have imposed on the land what it can not bear." They said, "No, (we haven't)." 'Umar added, "If Allah should keep me alive I will let the widows of Iraq need no men to support them after me." But only four days had elapsed when he was stabbed (to death ). The day he was stabbed, I was standing and there was nobody between me and him (i.e. Umar) except Abdullah bin 'Abbas. Whenever Umar passed between the two rows, he would say, "Stand in straight lines." When he saw no defect (in the rows), he would go forward and start the prayer with Takbir. He would recite Surat Yusuf or An-Nahl or the like in the first Rak'a so that the people may have the time to Join the prayer. As soon as he said Takbir, I heard him saying, "The dog has killed or eaten me," at the time he (i.e. the murderer) stabbed him. A non-Arab infidel proceeded on carrying a double-edged knife and stabbing all the persons he passed by on the right and left (till) he stabbed thirteen persons out of whom seven died. When one of the Muslims saw that, he threw a cloak on him. Realizing that he had been captured, the non-Arab infidel killed himself, 'Umar held the hand of 'Abdur-Rahman bin Auf and let him lead the prayer. Those who were standing by the side of 'Umar saw what I saw, but the people who were in the other parts of the Mosque did not see anything, but they lost the voice of 'Umar and they were saying, "Subhan Allah! Subhan Allah! (i.e. Glorified be Allah)." Abdur-Rahman bin Auf led the people a short prayer. When they finished the prayer, 'Umar said, "O Ibn 'Abbas! Find out who attacked me." Ibn 'Abbas kept on looking here and there for a short time and came to say. "The slave of Al Mughira." On that 'Umar said, "The craftsman?" Ibn 'Abbas said, "Yes." 'Umar said, "May Allah curse him. I did not treat him unjustly. All the Praises are for Allah Who has not caused me to die at the hand of a man who claims himself to be a Muslim. No doubt, you and your father (Abbas) used to love to have more non-Arab infidels in Medina." Al-Abbas had the greatest number of slaves. Ibn 'Abbas said to 'Umar. "If you wish, we will do." He meant, "If you wish we will kill them." 'Umar said, "You are mistaken (for you can't kill them) after they have spoken your language, prayed towards your Qibla, and performed Hajj like yours." Then Umar was carried to his house, and we went along with him, and the people were as if they had never suffered a calamity before. Some said, "Do not worry (he will be Alright soon)." Some said, "We are afraid (that he will die)." Then an infusion of dates was brought to him and he drank it but it came out (of the wound) of his belly. Then milk was brought to him and he drank it, and it also came out of his belly. The people realized that he would die. We went to him, and the people came, praising him. A young man came saying, "O chief of the believers! Receive the glad tidings from Allah to you due to your company with Allah's Apostle and your superiority in Islam which you know. Then you became the ruler (i.e. Caliph) and you ruled with justice and finally you have been martyred." 'Umar said, "I wish that all these privileges will counterbalance (my shortcomings) so that I will neither lose nor gain anything." When the young man turned back to leave, his clothes seemed to be touching the ground. 'Umar said, "Call the young man back to me." (When he came back) 'Umar said, "O son of my brother! Lift your clothes, for this will keep your clothes clean and save you from the Punishment of your Lord." 'Umar further said, "O 'Abdullah bin 'Umar! See how much I am in debt to others." When the debt was checked, it amounted to approximately eighty-six thousand. 'Umar said, "If the property of 'Umar's family covers the debt, then pay the debt thereof; otherwise request it from Bani 'Adi bin Ka'b, and if that too is not sufficient, ask for it from Quraish tribe, and do not ask for it from any one else, and pay this debt on my behalf." 'Umar then said (to 'Abdullah), "Go to 'Aisha (the mother of the believers) and say: "Umar is paying his salutation to you. But don't say: 'The chief of the believers,' because today I am not the chief of the believers. And say: "Umar bin Al-Khattab asks the permission to be buried with his two companions (i.e. the Prophet, and Abu Bakr)." Abdullah greeted 'Aisha and asked for the permission for entering, and then entered to her and found her sitting and weeping. He said to her, "'Umar bin Al-Khattab is paying his salutations to you, and asks the permission to be buried with his two companions." She said, "I had the idea of having this place for myself, but today I prefer Umar to myself." When he returned it was said (to 'Umar), "'Abdullah bin 'Umar has come." 'Umar said, "Make me sit up." Somebody supported him against his body and 'Umar asked ('Abdullah), "What news do you have?" He said, "O chief of the believers! It is as you wish. She has given the permission." 'Umar said, "Praise be to Allah, there was nothing more important to me than this. So when I die, take me, and greet 'Aisha and say: "Umar bin Al-Khattab asks the permission (to be buried with the Prophet ), and if she gives the permission, bury me there, and if she refuses, then take me to the grave-yard of the Muslims." Then Hafsa (the mother of the believers) came with many other women walking with her. When we saw her, we went away. She went in (to 'Umar) and wept there for sometime. When the men asked for permission to enter, she went into another place, and we heard her weeping inside. The people said (to 'Umar), "O chief of the believers! Appoint a successor." Umar said, "I do not find anyone more suitable for the job than the following persons or group whom Allah's Apostle had been pleased with before he died." Then 'Umar mentioned 'Ali, 'Uthman, AzZubair, Talha, Sad and 'Abdur-Rahman (bin Auf) and said, "Abdullah bin 'Umar will be a witness to you, but he will have no share in the rule. His being a witness will compensate him for not sharing the right of ruling. If Sad becomes the ruler, it will be alright: otherwise, whoever becomes the ruler should seek his help, as I have not dismissed him because of disability or dishonesty." 'Umar added, "I recommend that my successor takes care of the early emigrants; to know their rights and protect their honor and sacred things. I also recommend that he be kind to the Ansar who had lived in Medina before the emigrants and Belief had entered their hearts before them. I recommend that the (ruler) should accept the good of the righteous among them and excuse their wrong-doers, and I recommend that he should do good to all the people of the towns (Al-Ansar), as they are the protectors of Islam and the source of wealth and the source of annoyance to the enemy. I also recommend that nothing be taken from them except from their surplus with their consent. I also recommend that he do good to the 'Arab bedouin, as they are the origin of the 'Arabs and the material of Islam. He should take from what is inferior, amongst their properties and distribute that to the poor amongst them. I also recommend him concerning Allah's and His Apostle's protectees (i.e. Dhimmis) to fulfill their contracts and to fight for them and not to overburden them with what is beyond their ability." So when 'Umar expired, we carried him out and set out walking. 'Abdullah bin 'Umar greeted ('Aisha) and said, "'Umar bin Al-Khattab asks for the permission." 'Aisha said, "Bring him in." He was brought in and buried beside his two companions. When he was buried, the group (recommended by 'Umar) held a meeting. Then 'Abdur-Rahman said, " Reduce the candidates for rulership to three of you." Az-Zubair said, "I give up my right to Ali." Talha said, "I give up my right to 'Uthman," Sad, 'I give up my right to 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf." 'Abdur-Rahman then said (to 'Uthman and 'Ali), "Now which of you is willing to give up his right of candidacy to that he may choose the better of the (remaining) two, bearing in mind that Allah and Islam will be his witnesses." So both the sheiks (i.e. 'Uthman and 'Ali) kept silent. 'Abdur-Rahman said, "Will you both leave this matter to me, and I take Allah as my Witness that I will not choose but the better of you?" They said, "Yes." So 'Abdur-Rahman took the hand of one of them (i.e. 'Ali) and said, "You are related to Allah's Apostle and one of the earliest Muslims as you know well. So I ask you by Allah to promise that if I select you as a ruler you will do justice, and if I select 'Uthman as a ruler you will listen to him and obey him." Then he took the other (i.e. 'Uthman) aside and said the same to him. When 'Abdur-Rahman secured (their agreement to) this covenant, he said, "O 'Uthman! Raise your hand." So he (i.e. 'Abdur-Rahman) gave him (i.e. 'Uthman) the solemn pledge, and then 'Ali gave him the pledge of allegiance and then all the (Medina) people gave him the pledge of allegiance. (Sahih Bukhari--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=57&translator=1&start=0&number=50 - #57 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=57&translator=1&start=0&number=50#50 - #50 ) Umar's(RAA) opinion about Khilafah Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar(RAA): It was said to 'Umar(RAA), "Will you appoint your successor?" Umar said, "If I appoint a Caliph (as my successor) it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Abu Bakr) did so, and if I leave the matter undecided, it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Allah's Apostle) did so." On this, the people praised him. 'Umar said, "People are of two kinds: Either one who is keen to take over the Caliphate or one who is afraid of assuming such a responsibility. I wish I could be free from its responsibility in that I would receive neither reward nor retribution I won't bear the burden of the caliphate in my death as I do in my life." (Sahih Bukhari--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=89&translator=1&start=0&number=325 - #89 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=89&translator=1&start=0&number=325#325 - #325 ) Alhamduillah Do any of these hold any weight with the Shia??? ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 10:53am
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Assalamu Alaikum Narrated AbuHurayrah(RAA): The Prophet (SAWS) said: The Jews were split up into seventy-one or seventy-two sects; and the Christians were split up into seventy one or seventy-two sects; and my community will be split up into seventy-three sects. (Sunan Abu Dawud--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=40&translator=3&start=0&number=4579 - #40 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=40&translator=3&start=0&number=4579#4579 - #4579 ) Narrated AbuDharr(RAA): The Prophet (SAWS) said: He who separates from the community within a span takes off the noose of Islam from his neck. (Sunan Abu Dawud--Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=40&translator=3&start=0&number=4740 - #40 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=40&translator=3&start=0&number=4740#4740 - #4740 ) ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 12:32pm
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dear br Talib_Asadullah
wa'alikumassalam. hope you are in the best of health... there are few more examples i can provide...but lets go step by step.. you can read about the exile of marwan and his father hakam in the following book: http://books.google.com/books?id=76qNufWWDPoC&pg=PA133&dq=hakam+prophet+exile#PPA133,M1 even though the 1st two caliphs were not convinced to bring him back, but still uthman went on to persue his words....thus this is not a fair deal... just to let u know, the family of hakam was exiled because hakam mimicked the way the Prophet (s.a.w) walked and mocked the Prophet (a.s)....do u think a person who has lived under training of such a person shud be given a high position in society??? this is just one example.. surly the faults which does not effect the society shud be conceled...but imagine this......if someone you know dint have a good behavior....and the next day u see him teaching morals to his students...isnt it ure responisbilty to warn his students because he might be teaching them wrong...hope you get what i am trying to say..... regarding the will of Prophet (s.a.w)...it is not that the Prophet (s.a.w) dint want to write a will, but he was not allowed to write a will: Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise." http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/070.sbt.html br.seekshidayath when i said dat, i meant dat for this person sign*reader...surly this board is not anti-shia..others on this board are well respectful and open to views...and i thank u all on that...on ure insist...i will answer those questions inshallah soon....just give me a bit of time..as i am also preparing for my xams... i request br hossain and br myahya to leave that on me... regards asda |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 5:42pm
Assalamu Alaikum The question is.. How do we know what he(SAWS) would write? Do we know that he(SAWS) would even be informing us through this statement who the Khilafah would be? From the hadith, it can be deduced that he(SAWS) wasnt allowed to write, but it was through the annoyance of the people that he(SAWS) decided not to! This is all conjecture because it never transpired. Allah knows best ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 January 2009 at 7:32am
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wa'alaikumassalam
yes we dont know wat he wanted to write....but the point is y wasnt he allowed to write his will....there is one fact all of us shud accept here....i.e whatever he wanted to write, was something very important...and following to that, there wud hav been no one who wud hav gone astray: "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." in short something was important in his sunnah which he wanted to write there..... but wat is the reply he got: you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us. is this statement ever said by the Prophet (a.s) that the quran is enough for you...does his sunnah hav no importance??? and if quran was enough, why was there so much discord among the ummah after his death?? |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 January 2009 at 11:08am
The Prophet was not allowed to write his will? Who would not allow him to do that? He was a Prophet, remember? And all his companions stuck to his every single word and command. They didnt take his wishes/commands lightly. Please use your words carefully.
What a ridiculous conspiracy theory - sounds like a muslim version of the Da Vinci Code. You are suggesting that the Companions were conspiring against Prophet Muhammad, and prevented him from doing something he wanted to - which changed the course of Islam as we know it?
 The burden of conveying Islam, and preserving it, is a responsibility Allah took upon Himself. Had the making of a 'will' been an important tenent of Islam, that would have preserved it, Allah would have made sure it was stated clearly and established.
Also, unlike other religions/systems - Islam does not support the idea, that authority and power is transferred through genes or family name. Which is why Prophet Muhammad had no successor - apart from the muslim ummah itself.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 17 January 2009 at 12:05pm
Assalamu Alaikum...So the question I would ask is..Who has gone astray??? ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 17 January 2009 at 10:33pm
I can't help but comment............... While each and every Muslim knows the Prophet (saw) could not read or write making it a moot point ..... The discord was due to the Koofan Fitna who cheered Hussain (r) on for a clash with the state knowing fully well the outcome but still let it happen.... Then use the lunar month to do the lamentation and flagellation way illogical to get same thing like the Ramadan! The death day and birthdays have to go by solar system only...Not that it is going to effect the change any time soon but I thought to point it out the utter ignorance of the masses and also their retarded greedy leaders.... Look at the death certificate if you have one handy what calender do you see! We have so much discord in the world due to the Jooish claim of the only chosen people plus the lament of the holocaust making the whole world hostage.... while knowing the fact the Nazis who killed the Jooz are also dead but they continue to extract more mileage by teaching holocaust guilt in American schools who weren't even involved in the Jooz killings by a long shot... What sense does it make to continue belly aching about the sahabas ....they did this and they did that analogous to the Joowish thinking.........A continuous Fitna...It is backbiting the dead people I think by the time you get to the judgment day there will be hardly any good works left on your record to show to Allah swt... so do astaghfar for all the bad mouthing pronto.... you know what I mean and take it easy......... ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 18 January 2009 at 9:44am
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Assalamu Alaikum Alhamduillah, I agree about the badmouthing part. ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 10:56am
conspiracy theory??? okay fine....imagine this....if you would have been there, and the Prophet (s.a.w) was asking for pen and paper....what would you do, reject his wishes??? or quikly follow his orders??? please let me know... are you trying to tell me that the Prophet (s.a.w)'s writing was not important??? remember that the Prophet (s.a.w) was on his death bed....and surly not feeling well...in this condition he wants to write something which will prevent people from going astray...look at the importance given by Prophet (s.a.w) to this...the people who prevented him to write whatever he wanted to, y do u think they did so....did they not read the quran where Allah (s.w.t) has repeatedly said: Surah al Maidah verse 92 "Obey Allah and Obey his Prophet and worry, and be warned that the Prophet's duty is only to deliver the message clearly" Surah Mujadilah verses 12-13 "Perform Salat (Prayer), give Zakat and Obey Allah and his Prophet" and for a fact, Allah (s.w.t) orders them not to take his orders lightly: Surah Anfal verse 20: "O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak)." Surah Hashr verse 7 "And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal." are you trying to tell me the people who were around the Prophet (s.a.w) dint have knowledge of quran??? i am sure its not like that....they were tought Quran by the Best teacher of quran on earth....how can they forget all this...
i agree with ure point expressed above....
before moving on to the consequences, it would be better if we would analyse this event thoroughly....the people actually quarelled in front of the Prophet (s.a.w) when Allah (s.w.t) had clearly said: Surah Anfal verse 46 "And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel." and all the disputes were to be solved on the orders of the Prophet (s.a.w), y not this one: Surah Nisa verse 59 "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination." y is it that Umar made a claim that " the Book of Allah is enough for us." when the Rasulullah (s.a.w) had clearly stated �I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.� Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith 1623, 1626, 6361; Sahih Muslim hadith number 98; al-Tirmidhi hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085; Ahmed bin Hanbal in his Masnud, hadith no. 19774. Please look up the actual Arabic wording for yourselves. doesnt all of this show that the Prophet (s.a.w) feared the People would go astray???
I am really sad to read your comment on rasulullah...if the Prophet (s.a.w) dint know how to read and write, WHY WAS HE ASKING FOR PEN AND PAPER??? okay fine...lets suppose he dint know how to read and write (maazallah) dont u agree that somebody shud hav brought it to him so that he could relate whatever he (s.a.w) wanted to... okay...i ask u the same question, what would u do if u were ordered by the Prophet (s.a.w) to bring pen and paper??? would u remind him that he does not know how to read and write or u would follow his (a.s)'s orders???
please dont try to stray away from the topic...if u want to adress any of the above issues u can open a new thread and debate with me on this...inshallah this will be adressed..
if "this" is called "backbiting" on the deads then this form of "backbiting" is the sunnah of Allah (s.w.t)...dont you read the story of qarun in quran?? dont you read what Allah (s.w.t) has said about abu lahab??? havent you read the varios mistakes commited by the people who disobeyed the Prophets (May Peace and belessings be on all of them)....I just fear that you would be counted among them.... |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 12:03pm
okay..since i dont have a lot of time in the next few days..i will be replying this..i will try to keep my reples shoort.....my answers are given in green below:
i hope i have satisfactorily answered every single question of ures...if any of u want a further discussion on this i wud prefer having a discussion in a seperate thread where we can discuss each topic in detail...many topics in one thread is just going to make things complicated..and hard for each other to understand regards Asda |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 11:58pm
1. The Companions of the Prophet, especially his near and dear ones, would never reject his wishes. You would know that if you had read ahadith, but then ofcourse, you reject most of them anyway.
2. Like you said yourself, the companions were taught by the best teacher of Quran, and learnt by his example, therefore they would know the importance of obeying his wishes, and be aware of the Quranic injunctions stressing on obeying the Prophet - thus would never ever disobey him.
3. Again, nobody prevented the Prophet from doing anything. The Prophet couldnt write in the first place. I highly doubt your consipiracy theory, but I shall go back in the thread and see which hadith you base this claim of yours on (prevention of writing the 'will') since I have not followed it from the start, because a lot of talk here gets on my nerves.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 12:44am
WHat do you call these twelvers and Seveners, How did they get the immamats? Dad to son ? or some others way! Man YOU lost It right here!
I never said that majority is normal particularly when they are in bondage! You have seen it in Gaza.......
I am not advocating for Saudis and never will....... You need to visit Harm shareef and see it yourself what these Iranians do with that dirt disc to do Sajdah....they never went to hajj just thirty years ago and no one taught the etiquette of the Haram.. You talk about scholars!
This a make belief of you guys........
Iraq and Pakistan are American occupied countries facilitated by the SHii and Ahmedi agents!
If this was true why would Ali(r) become the Caliph elected by ahle Sunnah? Don't be facetious like the Christians and Jooz, Quran doesn't give the detail of Salat either!
Now you are sounding like the Ahmedees
Non sequitur
Non sequitur again
No one is buying this here!
Thank you ...Exactly the point I am trying to make ...then accept the will of Allah swt and quit making a hue and cry against his will............
I am not for those idiots dancing in mosques! There is no comparison between them and us! I remember my dorm days ... room mate coming back from his bible thumping class and throw his bible on the floor along with with his shoes....some holy book! yes you don't want their way....a tax right off or plaque on the building...... I had shiia friends all my life either they were socialist /communists then later in life bunch of Takiyya practitioner schemers that cost me a bundle and almost my life! I was almost a Shiia and then What finally turned me off was the visits to the Majalas and listening to the Zakars coming from the old countries and listening to their drama ......then all those my shiia friends who didn't even pray would act as if to grab the Xtian like going along would get the redemption! And the over all atmosphere would become just too much......
This is just lame...
Bingo Now yu are changing the tune ...Just explain your lineage of Imams Thanks for saying that......
Quit lying that is all .....you are making up history to defend your rubbish.....you won't get away with this.........
I think you are too young and sophomoric to know the facts! Because the shiia were bent upon the heredity that gave tribal system to take hold the Caliphate went hereditary too the Ummayads Abbasids and Ottomans! where is the politics here! I don't live in a Muslim country but I don't think you have a system where you live my internet friend....At least when the Sunni Caliphs ruled they ruled the realm with dignity and honor without scheming! The world couldn't refuse their direction and orders....And then they were back stabbed by the shiias!
Right now there no independent Muslim state since the demise of Ottomans...why every time the west attacks it attcks the so called Sunni territory and not the Shiit WW! Ottomans end of the the Caliphate; India the Muguls and Nawab Siraj udollah(who was Jaffar a Shiit a turn coat who help Clive) At the destuction of Baghdad by Halaku and by now by Bush who were the traitors you want me tell you ......... Read this if you like......... http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/iranian_mullahs/2008/06/10/103339.html - http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/iranian_mullahs/2008/06 http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/iranian_mullahs/2008/06/10/103339.html - /10/103339.html ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 4:25am
Contrary to what you suggested, according to sahih ahadith - the main muslim body i.e. majority will be on the straight path. Which means, any other sects that propped up later, and deviated from the Prophet Muhammad and his Sahaba's path, are going in different directions:
Sahih Muslim (3/4553) under the chapter heading 'Instruction to stick to the main body of the Muslims in the time of the trials and warning against those inviting people to disbelief', :
On the authority of Hudhaifa ibn al-Yaman (Allah be pleased with him), who said:
Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) as saying:
"Who (ever) defected from the obedience (to the Amir) and separated from the main body of the Muslims - then he died in that state - would die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance). And he who is killed under the banner of a man who is blind (to the cause for which he is fighting), who gets flared up with family pride and fights for his tribe - is not from my Ummah, and whoso from my followers attacks my followers (indiscriminately) killing the righteous and the wicked of them, sparing not (even) those staunch in faith and fulfilling not his obligation towards them who have been given a pledge (of security), is not from me." (Sahih Muslim, 3/4557 & 4555 Ahmad and Abu Dawood (Allah's mercy be upon them) said that Abu Dharr (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as saying:
'Abdullah ibn Masood (Allah be pleased with him) reported that once Allah's Messenger (Peace be upon him) drew a line in the dust with his hand and said, "This is the straight path of Allah." Then he drew a series of lines to the right of it and to the left and said, "Each of these paths has a devil at its head inviting people to it." He then recited (Qur'an 6:153), "Verily this is my straight path so follow it and do not follow the (twisted) paths." (Collected by Ahmad, Nisai and Darimi; see Mishkat ul-Masabih, 1/166)
Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (Peace be upon him) as saying:
The translator of Mishkat-ul-Masabih (A.H. Siddiqui, pg. 113) said in the footnote to the last Hadith: "There is a good deal of difference of opinion as to what the term Sawad al-Azam implies. The overwhelming majority of the scholars are of the view that As-Sawad al-Azam means the largest group of the learned scholars and pious persons whose opinions are held in high esteem in Islam."
Imam al-Shafi'i said:
Imam Hakim (1/116) has related a Sahih Hadith from the Prophet (Peace be upon him) in the following words: "My Ummah shall not agree upon error." Imam al-Tirmidhi (4/2167) reported on the authority of Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who said: "Verily my Ummah would not agree (or he said the Ummah of Muhammad) would not agree upon error and Allah's hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell." (see also Mishkat, 1/173) There are numerous others. I just posted the ones for which I had a reference.------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 10:18am
just got few minuts to write this...will wrap it up quikly...
please dont waste my time wen u chat wid me next...i thout u knew some facts but sadly u were ignorant of what is going on in this thread....ignorance for u is a blessing...but not for me bro... the hadith i was referring to is : Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise." http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/070.sbt.html i hope this answers what i was talking about...please go back and read the whole discussion... and all your hadith one the majority suggest sticking to the MAIN BODY OF MUSLIMS!!!!! and dat does not mean the majority at all.....it talks about the people of haq...not the majority.....and if u want to know about what allah (s.w.t) says about majority i will give u an example: "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" Quran 10:92 there are few more such examples i can give u... and mr sign*reader i pity ure ignorance.. u have cried about ure own victory when u hav avoided the thruth and hav not tried thinking over it... and jazakallah the people who hav supported hamas in gaza are mainly the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s)...rest every otheer arabs were sleeping....and worst..even caused harm...just to save their seats.....they surly dont want hamas and hizbullah to get popular among the massess....i remember wen some arab coutries openly supported the zionist in the 2006 war which mashallah hizbullah won and all of these people had to face the shame... we cause hovac in hajj??? look whose talking??? nad ya...we go to hajj/umrah more than we go to visit the graves of Aaimmah (a.s)....now dont try to teach us things....face the truth... and then u avoided some questions....ohh man...after dat..i see u winning..lolzzzzz
I am tired of exposing your lies...let the others see it for themselves.. Imam Ali (a.s) was "elected" by the ahlus sunnah???? dats news to me...are u telling me that muawiyah was not a sunni?? did u forget the jamaa'ah?? and if muawiyah was not a sunni what was he?? i know u r scared because of our "hue and cry"....its this wat kills anti shias....if u truly think we r wrong...tell ureself and ure anti shia fellows...leave us to our condition...lakum deenakum waleeya deen... again...i feel pity for ure ignorance on the fact that u think the umayyads and the abbasids were not sunnis... |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 7:35pm
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Assalamu Alaikum Alhamduillah, Thank you Brother/Sister SignReader and Sister Chrysalis(The Ahadith were on point) for taking the time to shift through all that information and standing up for the Jamma'ah. Jazak'Allah ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: Talib_Asadullah
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 7:39pm
Assalamu Alaikum Wont you consider that that might be very inapporiate, considering that ayah was aimed at the most ardent and staunch ones of the Kuffar and Mushrikeen? When Did I, or anyone that disagrees with you in some areas, adopt a Way of Life contrary to Islam? ------------- Al-Qur'an was-Sunnah |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 8:52pm
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Sign*Reader
in Burgundy asda in Black i pity ure ignorance.. I think you live in some freak place and you come here to talk about ignorance that is absolutely funny attitude of turn coats.... How much support have you garnered on your POV....I would say zilch... The truth just like the Jooz and Xtians makes you mad ... The things you like ...the blood rituals of these old deviants who created religions out of person's names... You have no logic when become partisan of Ali against the party of Muhammad(s) We have seen that you guys were helpers in the Sunnis massacres in Iraq and Lebanon by joining hands with the west! Tell me that is a lie! Your parents needed a better etiquette training to make you as better Muslim... Why are you on this American Muslim site if don't want to listen to the truth? Why hang around here if you don't like the truth? What does that tell about your background and agenda? u have cried about ure own victory when u hav avoided the thruth and hav not tried thinking over it... What is there to think over when I know you guys like the back of my hand that you are so close to Catholicism in rituals and making up stories and jazakallah the people who hav supported hamas in gaza are mainly the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s)...rest every otheer arabs were sleeping....and worst..even caused harm...just to save their seats.....they surly dont want hamas and hizbullah to get popular among the massess....i remember wen some arab coutries openly supported the zionist in the 2006 war which mashallah hizbullah won and all of these people had to face the shame... How so? Where were Hizbilies this time when Gazan were being destroyed? Hamas helped Hizblies in 06, ....Why didn't the Hizbilies or Iran help Gazans? None of Arabs are free to make their own decisions so what else is new for you? we cause hovac in hajj??? Yes there were a havoc many years back from the Iranians but the Saudi were ruthless to put it down.. look whose talking??? nad ya...we go to hajj/umrah more than we go to visit the graves of Aaimmah (a.s)....now dont try to teach us things....face the truth... Don't give me the BS!--you can't avoid these guys do sajdas on the dirt piece! May be you are well versed after all your rhetoric notwithstanding! and then u avoided some questions....ohh man...after dat..i see u winning..lolzzzzz I am tired of exposing your lies...let the others see it for themselves.. Of course .... A self praise is no recommendation! Imam Ali (a.s) was "elected" by the ahlus sunnah???? dats news to me... That is correct otherwise the Caliphate Rashdah would end with Usaman (r) I guess then you don't believe in Caliphate so you are out! Capiche are u telling me that muawiyah was not a sunni?? Cuz you are a bonehead did u forget the jamaa'ah?? What is jamaa'ah? and if muawiyah was not a sunni what was he?? That juresprudence schools had not begun yet as Reba would sa ..you moron...I think you should complete your membership data to know what is your where about ? i know u r scared because of our "hue and cry"....its this wat kills anti shias....if u truly think we r wrong...tell ureself and ure anti shia fellows...leave us to our condition...lakum deenakum waleeya deen... You wish you had a deen LOL YOU have no self respect and are bad name for Islam if that is what you want hear! WATCH THIS VIDEO ABOUT TWO MINUTES AND THEN HOLD YOUR FREAKING BREATH AND LISTEN TO THE JEWISH WOMAN SAY ABOUT YOU SICK & DUMB IDIOTS ................ who gave the idea of slitting heads of underage kids WHERE DOES IT SAY IN QURAN? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FABqq_jjRRo&eurl=http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FABqq_jjRRo&eurl=http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/ It will be so nice if all you were sent to Iran to reduce the treason to the Ummah in bondage! My brother married an Iranian and what she talks about Shiit mullahs it is just mind boggling how screwed up is their dogma.... that she is no more not even a Muslim! All the Iranain I have known were hardly Muslims much less Shiias! That should open your eyes! again...i feel pity for ure ignorance on the fact that u think the umayyads and the abbasids were not sunnis...asda: Quit the st**id talk! Just tell us in few words what are you doing here? The absolute rulers believe what they believe they are above all these things only Allah knows! Seems like you are still learning but want to feel good by causing fitna ... But you did read the linked article ! I think appropriate rhyme would be if you know "Pitty is pitiable" ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 21 January 2009 at 5:32am
Chillax Bro.
Like I said, I went right back to read the hadith . . . and the rest of the discussion - and no where did I see the world 'Will' in the hadith, the Prophet could have wanted to write down advise for us for all we know. If you think you are wasting time, you are under no obligation to reply, its not a personal debate anyway. I would not like to waste a brother's time.
Something told me that you would have a problem with the ahaidth I posted, either with teh wordings, or authencity. Inshallah, perhaps it helped some one else out there.
Had the ahadith been talking about 'Haq' it would have been mentioned. The summary of all the ahadith, from various sources might I add, is : How will we know which jamaat/sect/group is following Islam as the Prophet taught it? i.e. straight path? especially when we know there are so many deviations? Prophet Muhammad helped us out there, by giving us a clue, it will be the path observed by the majority of the ummah. Because Allah and the Prophet have told us, that due to Allah's blessing on us, them majority of the ummah will not have a consensus on falsehood . . . so basically, the majority of the ummah - will be always on Haqq. This means, that any sect that deviates from the majority - is going in wrong directions.
Its not just one hadith - from one source. Those are different ahadith, from different authentic sources - talking about the same thing. They clearly are referring to a mass/majority.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 21 January 2009 at 5:46am
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A reminder to some Members : No need to get personal. Its not a personal argument. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 04 February 2009 at 2:29pm
jazakkallah..i hope this serves a reminder to many..... well well..i think the tone of this discussion has changed to a "debate"....where everything ends in a sensless way.....i would advice u to keep the tone of a discussion here....specially sign*reader ....inshallah this discussion will now be seen as some kind of a win loose game... |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 04 February 2009 at 2:30pm
wa'a'likumassalam hope you r in good health.. brother talib...i was not saying that to common sunni brothers....i am always ready for a healthy "discussion" wid sunni brothers....the words above were meant only for anti-shia people who hav the guts to actually bomb our respected shrines of the grandson of Prophet (s.a.w) when infact we mourn for them.....fine...if they think we r wrong...then leave us...y attack us??? there shud be a very good reason behind this..and i see it as that they see the truth being spread....and they try to supress it.....well u may see it in a different way..and i dont blame u on dat....but the message to those anti-shias was...."leave us alone"..... |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 04 February 2009 at 2:32pm
the above part of ure post mr sign*reader objects only one subject.....i dont want to reply like u did...but i will just give u a gift to prove some facts....watever u want to call it.....those against us (anti-shia, not sunnis) know that what are they gonna face soon...heres ure gift: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbHAQwZXPaY i hope u see this video and extract wat i want u to show... btw..i wonder y wat jews say matter to u..lol...hint ?? now i will adress ure queries:
well i think this pic will answer u: 
and even if hizbullah wud hav started a direct confrontation, who wud be responsible for the death of thousands of labanese...then people like u wud just jump out on the fact that they dint about the sunnis and christians out dere..and r selfish..blah blah blah.....come on..stop playing this game wid me...
u want to debate wid me on dat..come up inshallah...y do u like making stray sentence and den runing away from it??
ure frustration says it all... |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 04 February 2009 at 2:32pm
okay fine...i accept ure argument...it was not a will since it was not mentioned....but do u deny the fact that it was SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT?? do you deny that what had to be written down was SUNNAH OF PROPHET (s.a.w) which shudnt be taken lightly..a reason being the comment of rasulullah (s.a.w) on watever he was goint to say??
i seriosly doubt ure comments...i can bring argiments on the "majority" thing you have brought up....but lets first look into those hadith u hav provided.. well its ure translation..not mine...it all talks about the "main body" of muslims....do u think numbers matter in front of Allah (s.w.t)??? i seriosly doubt u wud say yes.... well contrary to you points, there is a clear hadith of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) wen he discusses what should we do after him (a.s)..it is written in sahih muslim that: Muslim says:) Zuhayr ibn Harb and Shuja` ibn Makhlad narrated to me from `Ulayyah that he said: Zuhayr said: narrated to us Isma`il ibn Ibrahim, from Abu Hayyan, from Yazid ibn Hayyan, who said: "I, Husayn ibn Sabrah and `Umar ibn Muslim went to see Zayd ibn Arqam. When we sat down with him, Husayn said to him, 'O Zayd, you have been greatly fortunate. You have seen the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions, heard his speech, fought with him in battles and have prayed behind him. Indeed, O Zayd, you have been enormously fortunate. Narrate to us what you have heard from the Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him.' "Zayd said: 'O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don't, trouble me not regarding it.' Then he said: 'One day the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, "Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord [i.e. the call of death]. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, "And my Ahl al�Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al�Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al�Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al�Bayt"'" .... (Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il al�Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matba`at Muhammad `Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.) now whover holds the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) as a source of guidence like quran is following the sunnah of rasulullah (s.a.w)...regardless if those people are among the majority or the minority.... |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 February 2009 at 9:55pm
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Mr. asda: Let's switch hadith to some ground reality for a minute what Shiit are doing ........ Would you explain the Alvite shii Syrian government's role in the rendition ops for the US government while all over the world she is considered a big ally of Iranian regime who HAVE BEEN CALLING USA BIG SATAN FOR THIRTY YEARS! So question is how come her ally is doing the satan's dirty work? Following is the editorial from yesterday's paper LA Times that caught my eye on rendition: IT proves my original contention the shiia governments are working with the western governments in secret against the sunnis who are fighting for their faith................... Torture on trial?A
case coming before a federal appeals panel gives the judiciary another
chance to examine the secrecy surrounding the government's
'extraordinary rendition' program.
February 7, 2009
Khaled
El-Masri, a German citizen, was flown at the request of the United
States to Afghanistan, where he says he was tortured by the CIA (in a
case of mistaken identity) for four months. Maher Arar, a Canadian
citizen, was seized in New York and dispatched by U.S. officials to
Syria, where he was apparently tortured regularly for almost a year.
Binyam Mohammed says he was taken into custody in Karachi and brutally
interrogated for two years in Pakistan and Morocco and then at the
notorious CIA-run "Dark Prison" in Kabul, Afghanistan.
Each of these men later filed a civil lawsuit protesting his experience in the U.S. government's "extraordinary rendition" program. Yet not one has been allowed his day in court. Instead, the cases were summarily dismissed. In each instance, the government invoked what's
known as the "state secrets privilege," arguing that the lawsuit must
not be allowed to proceed because it would require the disclosure of
vitally sensitive classified information.
We hope the judges will have the courage to
stand up to the government. Better yet, we hope the Obama
administration lawyers will show up in court Monday and reject the
approach of the previous administration, letting the case go forward.
If a man credibly claims to have been snatched from his home and family
and tortured by or with the acquiescence of the government, he deserves
a fair and impartial reckoning in court. Besides, the government's
assertions about the damage that could ensue should be viewed
skeptically. The history of the privilege suggests that the government
may use it not so much to protect national security as to prevent its
own illegal or embarrassing misadventures from coming to light. Until now, courts have been overwhelmingly accommodating of this claim. The Bush administration asserted the privilege dozens of times -- far more than any of its predecessors -- and was not once required to turn over material it claimed was secret. "Private interests," noted the judge in El-Masri's case as he tossed it out, "must give way to the national interest." Next week, however, the judiciary has another chance to declare its independence. On Monday, a three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals will be asked to reinstate Mohammed's case (brought with four others) against Jeppesen DataPlan Inc., the San Jose-based company that helped arrange rendition flights. There are ways to balance the government's legitimate security interests against plaintiffs' right to press their cases. Judges could, for instance, take a more active role in scrutinizing the claims of secrecy, examining the controversial evidence in private. Or they could agree to hold back certain pieces of sensitive information without dismissing entire cases. But what's clear is that the government should not be permitted to kidnap and torture and then simply declare those heinous activities to be "state secrets" and off-limits for discussion. It is understandable the rendition ops in US occupied places like Afghanistan and Pakistan but of all places Syria  ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS......SHAME ON THESE TURNCOATS!!!! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 09 February 2009 at 9:46am
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ure assumption dat shia muslims are working against sunni muslims is quite bad......i think u shud better look into the other thread where hamas (a sunni group) thanx iranian foreign minister (obviosly shia muslim) for their support towards the israeli conflict.....where r u man....do u think hamas is BLIND???and u knw the ground reality more dan dem?? well it is noticable that ure tone is better in the above post..(compared to others).....nd i appreciate dat.... regarding the news item u posted.......i am not a blind supporter of goverments of iran and syria.......i dont know how u r ruling out the possibility of curruption within syria where(in some areas) the ruling party has no hand in it.....nor hav u provided any evidence that the goverment was involved in it...its just ure assumptions which u are working on..... |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 09 February 2009 at 1:11pm
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There are no assumptions here....the Los Angeles Times would not editorialize some thing they have not checked the veracity of it's contents cuz it will cost them a bundle if they don't when it is being litigated.... You need to pay attention to the high lighted part....Syria is a dictatorship and you would be naive to plead innocence for their no involvement by the Syrian dictatorship! Do you even understand what is "rendition" and they pick the countries with dictatorship or lack of rule of law? This is CIA op's and you say the government is not involved LOL In this particular case a country that has killed the Sunnis brotherhood by the thousand in the past without any repercussions! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 February 2009 at 9:45pm
I replied to this post a couple of days earlier, but for some reason, it didnt post.
Anything that the Prophet ever actually said is indeed very important. That is a truism.
What I dont understand is, why create such a huge fuss about something that he was going to say, but in the end decided not to - due to whatever reason best known to him and Allah. Will you deny the fact that Allah took upon the responsibility of preserving Islam upon Himself? Muslims believe that Allah revealed all that was neccessary for us Muslims through Prophet Muhammad. Our Prophet took his job very seriousley, had anything been top in his list of priorities for us Muslims, he would have conveyed them to us, and not let the sahaba come in his way. So please, I urge you to focus on things that Prophet Muhammad and Islam lay a priority on. Not on things he was going to say but in the end decided not to.
What is the point in dwelling over that particular issue, when it is done and gone. . . .there really is no point, unless it be an agenda to badmouth certain Sahaba and portray them in a negative light. Which is something Prophet Muhammad would never agree with. He loved, trusted and respected his Sahaba. For ordinary people to stand up and throw blame on them is a huge insult. Are you suggesting that Prophet Muhammad would surround himself with and trust people like Hazrat Umar, had they been of suspicious character? Have that much faith in our Prophet.
You are welcome to doubt my personal comments - but I posted authentic ahadith from various sources, that all say the same thing. Not believing in the authencity of those ahadith is another thing altogether, and you should just let me know if you dont agree with thier authencity. Which by the way, are agreed upon by the majority of Muslim scholars.
The ahadith simply are to set the ummah straight on what 'sect' to follow (none, btw) - the ahadith are to give guidance to the ummah as to which Islam is teh one as taught by Prophet Muhammad - and not invented by ordinary people after his death.
On the contrary - I find nothing in this hadith, that is contrary to what I said. You forget, we are not the kind of Muslims who think negatively of any sahabi, we give the due respect each deserves, and do not find it our place to comment on thier character. Which is why we love and respect Prophet Muhammad's Ahlul Bayt as well. One difference is tht We consider Prophet Muhammad's wives part of his family, and I know that some muslims like u beliveve that his wives were not part of his 'family'/ahlul bayt - and his family consisted of his daughter, son-in-law and nephews. - and thier direct blood descendants. So according to me, that hadith refers to his wives as well, and all those muslims who blame/throw badlight on some of his wives, should remember God regarding his Alhlul bayt.
I think by posting this hadith, you probably meant to say that Shias are the ones that follow the 'Ahlul Bayt' . . .and so r on the right path. Correct me if i am wrong. In that case, why is most of their 'religion' based on the sayings of various Imams and whatnot? Also, why is it that (for instance) that you people believe certain things like Mutaah to be halal, when the Prophet forbade him? in hadith narrated by hazrat Ali (r.a) himself. A majorty of what these people do today has nothing to do with the 'Ahlul Bayt' themselves. . . and was never taught by them.....
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 15 February 2009 at 1:41pm
My answers are in green..
Wsalaam asda |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 February 2009 at 5:06am
Going in cycles now. . . The Prophet couldnte be prevented from relaying his message. If the mushrikeen couldnt prevent him - I doubt the sahaba could. The bottom line is, the Prophet didnt say it. There were numerous times the Prophet remained silent on matters due to wisdom. There were occasions when he said things like 'Had you known what I know, you would be crying" . . .yet he never told them all that stuff did he? Prophetic wisdom, and Allah's Will. But I guess the Shias know better.
I dont like Hypothetical games, but since you are bent upon an answer: I would have gotten him a pen and paper, inshalah - But at the end, the Prophet would only have said something had he wanted to, or decided to, that Allah willed. He could very well have changed his mind.
What you are suggesting is, that you and I are supposedly better Muslims than the trusted ones that stood by him at that point - because we would have done things differently than what they did. Atleast one of them at that point, was given the prediction of Jannah in his lifetime. Is that so? This arrogance of suspecting those sahaba is something that I cannot comply with.
Alhamdulilah, we agree on something. The Prophet conveyed all that he had to before he passed away.
Because my friend, Prophets and Messengers only do things due to Allah's will. Thier will follows Allah's will - and they make decisions on the basis of that. They do not let 'other' people interfere in thier Message. . . they do not succumb to peer pressure, or public demand. They do not let thier personal feelings of anger or annoyance come in the way of relating thier message. If ever they do something otherwise, Allah immediately corrects them, and Intervenes. So, if the Prophet did not say something - it was a wilful, concious act. Not an act that was influenced by the Sahabah around him. He would never do that. So that is how I know. . . I dont even 'assume', its the faith in the quality of the Message and the Prophet. If Allah let His Prophets get disrupted by peer pressure, there would be no guarantee of the authencity and quality of the Message we have today. (Quran , Hadith)
By throwing suspicion and blame upon the character of certain sahaba e.g. Hazrat Umar nauzubillah not letting Prophet Muhammad say something, or refusing to follow his commands - you are inadvertently badmouthing him.
But then, from the way you worded your statement - it seems to me that you do not consider him to be a Sahabi? I guess it was another mistake (nauzubillah) of the Prophet, when he included him as an ashrah-e-mubasharah and gave him the prediction to paradise in his lifetime.
Ridiculous. There is a difference b/w people who surrounded the Prophet physically, and those that were his circle of trust. I was clearly referring to the sahaba he trusted, and loved. And it is those sahaba that we take religion from. . . rather than restrict our religion to a favoured, rare few.
By We, I mean all the muslims, who hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Qur'an, Sunnah and Sahih Hadith - and didnt deviate into firqas and sects after the Prophet's demise i.e. Muslims. Btw, a lot of the labels you mentioned, have similar beliefs - except a few really deviated ones. If there is any difference, it is on the label-name, and matters of jurisprudence and fiqh. Most of them do not deny the authentic ahadith, or Sahaba etc.
What feelings have I tried to cover? I have been straight since the start. I repel anyone and any sect that deviates, likes to associate themselves as someone other than a 'Muslim', does not respect and uphold the Qur'an, Sunnah, Hadith. Or cooks up thier own versions of Islam. Not to mention those who are arrogant enough to cast judgemnets and suspicion on the character of sahabah that Prophet Muhammad trusted, and expected us to respect. Which brings to me your repulsion of Abu Hurayrah. He was a man that Prophet Muhammad clearly loved and respected, and whom his peers (i.e other Sahabah respected too.) I would like to follow in Prophet's Muhammad's Sunnah and judgement - and not pretend I know more about Abu Hurayrah from stories today - than the people living in his time did. If you are not amongst those people, than I love you for Allah's sake.
Okay, so a woman is not a member of the household when she is divorced and goes back to her parents. I agree. Which is why I dont think a divorced spouse has a share in the inheritance anyway. Until a woman remains that person's wife he is part of his family and household. Same applies to the husband. Also, kith and kin does not mean blood relatives. Oh, and why else? Because the Qur'an says so.
I assure you I have no intention/wish of indulging you in a 'debate' of any sorts, even on Mutaah. However any act that was banned by the Prophet, yet is practised by a muslim - it reflects/says a lot about the nature of his 'Muslimness'
Since I did reply - I did ponder/think over your post. I agree that this is not a debate, rather a discussion. Hence I was never keeping any points, nor do I expect an outcome; win/loss. Anyway, Jazakallah for the reminder - and may Allah give Hidayat to us all. If you like, we could end it right here.
Regards, ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 5:05am
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There were occasions when he said things like 'Had you
known what I know, you would be crying" . . .yet he never told them all
that stuff did he? Prophetic wisdom, and Allah's Will. But I guess the
Shias know better. There is a difference in the things he wanted to say and the things he dint want to say.....we are talking about him being prevented from saying/conveying something which he had wanted to convey... I would have gotten him a pen and paper, inshalah - But at the end, the Prophet would only have said something had he wanted to, or decided to, that Allah willed. He could very well have changed his mind. Alhamdulillah....nice to know you wud have contradicted with umer......secondly ure latter part of ure assumption is baseless...please prove it... By throwing suspicion and blame upon the character of certain sahaba e.g. Hazrat Umar nauzubillah not letting Prophet Muhammad say something, or refusing to follow his commands - you are inadvertently badmouthing him. if dats da criteria..then the narrator himself is badmouthing him... I guess it was another mistake (nauzubillah) of the Prophet, when he included him as an ashrah-e-mubasharah and gave him the prediction to paradise in his lifetime. tha ashra mubashara hadith has not proven to be authentic....secondly its odd dat u see dat some people were given a "holiday" in this world.... By We, I mean all the muslims, who hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Qur'an, Sunnah and Sahih Hadith - and didnt deviate into firqas and sects after the Prophet's demise i.e. Muslims. Btw, a lot of the labels you mentioned, have similar beliefs - except a few really deviated ones. If there is any difference, it is on the label-name, and matters of jurisprudence and fiqh. Most of them do not deny the authentic ahadith, or Sahaba etc. are u sure??? well actually the scholars of each of this group are not...surly....because they do see each other diviant..isnt it???..so please specify which group u wud apply to the hadith u hav provided and please give me statistics... Okay, so a woman is not a member of the household when she is divorced and goes back to her parents. I agree. Which is why I dont think a divorced spouse has a share in the inheritance anyway. Until a woman remains that person's wife he is part of his family and household. Same applies to the husband. Also, kith and kin does not mean blood relatives. Oh, and why else? Because the Qur'an says so. i hope the brothers of ahlus sunnah wud agree wid each other on inteprating this hadith and then give out a final word....plus....the hadith clearly mentions the "WIVES"...not divorcees they are talking about... I assure you I have no intention/wish of indulging you in a 'debate' of any sorts, even on Mutaah. However any act that was banned by the Prophet, yet is practised by a muslim - it reflects/says a lot about the nature of his 'Muslimness' Whatever the Quran says and Whatever the Prophet (s.a.w) is hujjat upon every muslim to follow...since quran clearly mentions that it is allowed, i dont think there is a need of further discussion... Since I did reply - I did ponder/think over your post. I agree that this is not a debate, rather a discussion. Hence I was never keeping any points, nor do I expect an outcome; win/loss. Anyway, Jazakallah for the reminder - and may Allah give Hidayat to us all. If you like, we could end it right here. yah...i wud hav loved to end it here...but just let me know which "majority" are you talking about inshallah....and dats wat i want to learn from u.......I hope u r able to specify one. while other being the deviants......if not..then i think we can wrap up one here.... regards asda |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 8:39am
I see. So you still believe that Prophet Muhammad was vulnerable to being 'prevented' from relating his message. He succumbed to the external pressure, and did not relay his message? (nauzubillah). Strange coming from a belief system who insist that a sahabi like Ali (r.a) is infallible - but the Prophet apparently isnt?
You are doing a good job relating the antagonism your sect feels towards sahaba like Hazrat Umar (r.a). You want me to "prove" to you that Prophet Muhammad had the ability to change his mind and make decisions? oh-kay. So you basically disagree with the statement: " the Prophet would only have said something had he wanted to, or decided to, that Allah willed. He could very well have changed his mind." Correct me if I am wrong.
Typical. Since Hazrat Umar is mentioned in the ashrah-e-mubasharah . . . it is not authentic. So basically, Muslim, Bukhari (and the rest) got ahadith correct when they happen to support your argument - but if they go against your argument - they got the ahadith wrong. Pick and choose? Just like the bani israel used to do. Whats odd is that you yourself believe that some people were given a 'holiday' in this world - because they happen to be "blood descendants" of the Prophet.
Statistics? for what? for how many people are following Qur'an and Sunnah? I have already told you. If you are not part of any sect that deviated after Prophet Muhammad's death . . .you are safe.
This is one of the ahadith that Muslim "accidentally" got correct, right?
It is futile talk ahadith with you - since you do not agree with all ahadith - and will only talk of the one that you happen to agree with. So if I bring up a hadith that says otherwise, you simply say : it is not authentic. . . just like you did in ur previous post.
Really? ok. And a significant majority of muslims + thier scholars believe that this ayat is not talking of Mutaah at all - And it is clearly banned. So yeah, no need for further discussion.
All the groups that hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Sahih Hadith + Qur'an + Sunnah are amongst this significant majority. Even if that part is not clear, it is clear that the hadith excludes groups that deviated from Prophet Muhammad's Islam after his death. But ofcourse, you dont believe in the authencity of this hadith . . . so why worry, eh? ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Goodluck getting those stats.Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 February 2009 at 1:29am
I hope u will help me wrap up this discussion with ure next post by providing me answer to a question i asked.. regards asda |