I have studied for many years on Relationships in extremist muslim familes.  I have been horrified with some of which I have learned.  The women in Jordan being killed in honor killings, sometimes killed for less.  I rescently read a book called Forbidden Love written by Norma Khouri, an escapee from Jordan.  She states many facts about how womens lives in Jordan are threatened every day by men.  These men include, husbands, brothers, relatives in general.  Sometimes even the unknown public.  Norma states that these honor killings are hidden from the western world but are very justified in Jordan.  Here is just one quote to show you what I mean.  "In september 1955, 18 year old Subhieh defied her uncles wishes and married 21 year old mohammed, the man she loved.  Two weeks after they married, her 15 year old brother under instructions from her uncle, went to her home after her husband left for work and shot her five times in the head and chest.  He immediately turned himself in, claiming to have cleansed his families honor and was set free."  This is just one of many examples given in one of many books, that are now getting written more frequently after these poor women escape these viscious men.  I want to hear your views on this.  We know these women more often than not, will say that they believe in what the male says and that he is totally correct, however deep down they are horrified and quite often waiting for their day to come.  Please, let me know what you think and drop an opinion here.  I would be interested indeed to see your point of view.

aisha wrote: it is sad when we hear these stories,its true that this happens i think this is more cultural than religous,often the two get mixed up.i think only in extrem circumstances this happens and we shouldnt think this is islamicly correct because in islam this is wrong.

I agree that this is sad, but however i disagree that that this happens to only the extremists.  As i have studied so much and been involved with Islamic women, and they have totally cried out to me, that have really broken my heart.  They are not even muslims, this actual family was Catholic living in Jordan, and whilst you live in Jordan, Muslim or not you have to go buy Jordanian rules.  And one of the Jordanian rules are "A man is entilted to kill a women to cleanse his honour" So this is why i disagree that it is not only extremists that do this or believe in such in human behaviour, its the total country itself.  I do belive however these extremists are just totally not human like kind, they should wipe them out of our countries, but as i have really looked into this, i know that this happens even if they are non extremists.  Women should be treated equally just like the Islamic men want respect they should respect a women you can say even a little more as for a women/wife carries his and her own child, a beautiful magical thing that only women can do in this world, and yet most, most Islamic, muslim men treat these women like they are nothing.

It would be a little more accurate if you had used a more recent example, 1955 is half a century ago,  but i guess in some places things stay the same or even get worse...the link i am putting here is a must reader, it was an eye opener for me concerning the realities of the suffering and injustice inflicted on women in the islamic world, and the causes of this which have nothing to do with the islamic prinicipal of justice. http://www.karamah.org/articles_quraishi.htm - http://www.karamah.org/articles_quraishi.htm

i dont know much that goes on there but it does sound like a cultural thing not islamic,my heart to goes out to these women,this country sounds like it needs more education on islam,i thank allah because i have no friends which i know have been treated like this,im sure these men will be judged by allah in the end.

aisha wrote: i dont know much that goes on there but it does sound like a cultural thing not islamic,my heart to goes out to these women,this country sounds like it needs more education on islam,i thank allah because i have no friends which i know have been treated like this,im sure these men will be judged by allah in the end.

All i have to say most in the Islamic religion they have these beliefs as i have experianced in reality with people that are Islamic and they wish not to be.  You are happy thats fine but most women/Islamic women dont truely say what they feel, due to fear for there life.  The point fact is that Islamic women are very much controlled from birth to believe in what they have been taught to beleive in, like most of us westerners have, but these women also grow up being afraid, treated wrongly and treated lesser than men, and they know this does not happen in western countries, they are afraid to speak out, so they cry within and we cannot see there real tears.  Why most islamic women can not be treated like normal human beings, this is sad in the year 2005 that we live in now, still women are controlled in great depth, it must stop.

Sandra,

Domestic violence is a problem everywhere, but it prevails in poor countries, where education is lacking.  Most muslim coutries are considered poor.  It is NOT an Islamic religious teaching to beat your wife!  In fact, muslims strive to live like Muhammad (PBUH), who NEVER participated in spousal abuse, and implored fellow muslim men to treat their spouse with kindness, as that is Allahs will.  Although I will not even PRETEND to ignore the horrible conditions of many women all over the world, I will say that your statement about "MOST" muslim women being in fear of their life is a gross over exaggeration.  Being a muslim myself, I have many muslim friends.  I have been to Pakistan with my husbands family and met all of his relatives and friends.  I can honestly say that NOT ONE MAN I MET, agrees it is okay to physically harm his wife.  IN FACT, most muslim men I know joke about how their wives are starting to "wear the pants", and most muslim women I know have wonderful, caring, supportive spouses.  As I mentioned before, your concern is quite valid, but CULTURAL change takes time.  Remember that it was not that long ago that in America, women could not vote and spousal abuse here was rampant everywhere.  It took time and public awareness and education to get women their rights in our culture, and it will take the same in other countries.  I think people forget that many countries are relatively new, like Pakistan, and it really does take time for a country to get on its feet and start enforcing human rights.  The United States began in the late 1700's, and it was not until several decades later that slavery was abolished!  This does not mean that slavery was supported by Christianity, just because christians owned slaves, does it?  In the same light, Islam does not support the abuse of women just because some muslim men choose to be barbaric. 

Sandra,

I understand you sadness, and I agree that this is a horrendous problem.  I too have read and studied practices in pre-dominantly Islamic cultures.  I too have read page after page of stories regarding honor killings and other gross injustices within some of these communities.  However, the acts you are referring to are not acts that are sanctioned by Allah (God).  There are no passages in the Qur�an that permits a person to do these evil things.  However, there are customs and traditions that in some cases (as is the cases with the honor killings in Jordan you have read about), have been honored DESPITE the fact that they go again the teachings of Islam. 

Allah warns us time and time again not to deviate from His laws or to make innovations to what He has made lawful to us.  We cannot blame Allah for what some men/women have chosen to do.  We all must do what is right to help eradicate the evils of the world; however, we must do that within the laws set forth by Allah or we too will be as guilty as these wrong doers.

And just for your information, at the time I read and studied these horrendous acts, I was not a Muslim.  At one time, I too had a hard time seeing the difference between the acts of humans and those permitted by Islam.  However, I am now Muslim of my own free will.  No one but Allah called me to this.  Allahu Akbar.

PAZ

Sandra,

It is absolutely forbidden for a Muslim to kill anyone (self defence is the only exception).  Our holy book, the Qur'an is our guide.  There is nothing about "honour killing" in it.  These people have mixed up culture with religion.  They think it is part of their religion - they are wrong.

May Allah guide all the misguided Muslims to the truth.

ummziba.

Khadija1021 wrote: [quote] Sandra, I understand you sadness, and I agree that this is a horrendous problem.  I too have read and studied practices in pre-dominantly Islamic cultures.  I too have read page after page of stories regarding honor killings and other gross injustices within some of these communities.  However, the acts you are referring to are not acts that are sanctioned by Allah (God).  There are no passages in the Qur�an that permits a person to do these evil things.  However, there are customs and traditions that in some cases (as is the cases with the honor killings in Jordan you have read about), have been honored DESPITE the fact that they go again the teachings of Islam.  Allah warns us time and time again not to deviate from His laws or to make innovations to what He has made lawful to us.  We cannot blame Allah for what some men/women have chosen to do.  We all must do what is right to help eradicate the evils of the world; however, we must do that within the laws set forth by Allah or we too will be as guilty as these wrong doers. And just for your information, at the time I read and studied these horrendous acts, I was not a Muslim.  At one time, I too had a hard time seeing the difference between the acts of humans and those permitted by Islam.  However, I am now Muslim of my own free will.  No one but Allah called me to this.  Allahu Akbar. PAZ

I cant judge anyone, if you think or believe that this allah has called you to change or what ever it has told you well so be that, but i can only judge on what i have seen and heard and know.  Tell me something why do Islamic women cover?

I am a Muslim woman
Feel free to ask me why
When I walk,
I walk with dignity
When I speak
I do not lie

I am a Muslim woman
Not all of me you'll see
But what you should appreciate
Is that the choice I make is free

I'm not plagued with depression
I'm neither cheated nor abused
I don't envy other women
And I'm certainly not confused

Note, I speak perfect English
Et un petit peu de Francais aussi
I'm majoring in Linguistics
So you need not speak slowly

I run my own small business
Every cent I earn is mine
I drive my Chevy to school & work
And no, that's not a crime!

You often stare as I walk by
You don't understand my veil
But peace and power I have found
As I am equal to any male!

I am a Muslim woman
So please don't pity me
For God has guided me to truth
And now I'm finally free!

(c)1999 Jenn Zaghloul

I thought so too.  It wasn't the poem I was searching for, but I had never read that one, so I thought it would be good to share.  Glad you enjoyed

ummziba wrote: [quote] Sandra,   It is absolutely forbidden for a Muslim to kill anyone (self defence is the only exception).  Our holy book, the Qur'an is our guide.  There is nothing about "honour killing" in it.  These people have mixed up culture with religion.  They think it is part of their religion - they are wrong. May Allah guide all the misguided Muslims to the truth. ummziba.

Please as i do not want to lose time explaning this over and over, but your mind is closed on what is really happening out in the real world today even.  In most Islamic countries Killing Honour is very legal, please read other forums that state just how real and legal these honour killings are.  You could not possibly be from Jordan, Afghanistan or any other Islamic extremist countries.  Otherewise you would know that these killings take place everyday. Here is one quote from an Islamic female that has excaped from Jordan and now resides here in Australia.  (STATED IN THE BOOK CALLED "FORBIDDEN LOVE" WRITER NORMA KHOURI " In March 1997, a man killed his fifteen year old daughter by crushing her head with a large stone because he suspected her of having had relations with a neighbour.  He told the police that when he questioned her about the matter, she denied having an immoral relationship with anyone, but he later killed her because he didnt believe her.  The forensic examination concluded that she'd never had sexual relations." ANOTHER TRUE FACT "One day in May 1994, Kifaya, a sixteen year old Jordanian girl, was strapped to a chair by her 32 year old brother, who gave her a glass of water, told her to recite an ISLAMIC PRAYER, and slashed her throat.  He then ran out into the street waving the bloodied knife and shouted "i killed my sister to cleanse my honour" His sister had been raped by one of her other brothers."  DO i need to say more??? I have written these two incidents out of the book itself, they were Islamic, it is real and true.  Maybe because you are living in a much liberated country, that you cant or dont want to look beyond your views and believe this goes on in the Islamic world today still.  I can give you over 30 different events on how women are horibbly treated in Islam.

JulAsif wrote: We all agree with you that there are serious problems.  We are simply arguing that Islam doesn't support these horrible crimes against humanity.  What more do you want us to say??  Many muslim women are very active in trying to free women from bad situations.  Actually, although YOU might not see it, if you ask an elderly muslimah who has lived a while, you will find that SLOWLY, times are changing and education is spreading and muslim women are beginning to get the rights perscribed to them in Islam.  Do we have a LONG way to go?  Sure.  But we are working on it.  What exactly do you want us to say in this discussion? That it's wrong and horrific?  IT IS WRONG AND HORRIFIC!  That it's not supported through islalmic teachings?  IT IS NOT SUPPORTED THROUGH ISLAMIC TEACHINGS!!  That we should do something about it??? WE HAVE BEEN.  SOCIAL CHANGE DOESN"T COME OVERNIGHT!

I dont want anything, i already know the facts of live.  And thankyou for stating that there is changes happening in these Islamic countries, and why is it changing? because women dont want to see other women suffer anylonger, also that women that really do fear life have spoken out, why yet i get responsed stating that this does not happen, that Islamic women are happy, ect ect when also you have stated its slowly changing, why did it start from the begining that these women were so constricted? why?  So therefore most women, Islamic women were and are still constricted.  Why im reading that this is not the Islamic way, when even you are saying that its slowly changing.

Sandra,

I have yet to see one poster deny the truth in these horrific events.  We know they happen.  NO ONE has said they don't!  If your issue is that you think Islam supports abuse of women and you would like to discuss that, why don't you start posting some Quran and Sunnah that support that claim??  I challenge you to do that!  If you can't, you can't keep saying that these things are "ISLAMIC".  I can't say because I know my Christian neighbor is committing adultery, that Christianity supports adultery, can I ??  Neither can you say taht because some people claiming to be muslims do horrible acts, that Islam supports it.  I have already asked in a previous post, WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTIVE HERE???

aisha wrote: im sure that what hapens in jorden is not islamic,people can claim that what they are doing is islamicbut nowhere in the quran does it say kill and beat your women,having afgan connections i can say that all the women i know who live there have utter respect from there husabnds.this is the case of most women i know,please dont let what happens to some women be interpreted to all women its not the case.i would love you to meet all the women i know,then im sure you would change your mind about muslim men.

Aisha,

i would love for you to meet the women i have spokent to also, Islamic women that are crying for help.  You obviously live in a liberated country like Canada, you cant possibly believe this happens to Islamic women there do you? because im talking about in Islamic countries.  We have also Islamic women living in Australia that say they are happy, but when you talk about why they came to Australia in the first place and left there country well t hats a different story.

I guess I dont' understand you when you say "why was it ever allowed to happen"??  Because we live on a planet of human beings who are imperfect, selfish, greedy, and power hungry, that's why!  Not because Islam teaches it!  Things are changing SLOWLY, because people like to hold onto power and authority once they get it, and it is not easy to bring about cultural change in a sweeping moment!  Come on, do you know nothing of history?  This treatment has happened in every religion and culture since the beginning of time!  Again, I CHALLENGE you to find one verse in teh Quran or Sunnah that supports these horrific crimes!

aisha wrote: im sorry your wrong,i live in england,but i have family who live in afganistan,and guess what they are really happy!you dont seem to understand that we know it happens but it is not islamic you cannot say all muslim men are the same as these so called muslims in jorden,we do not walk around in rose coloured glasses,but oyu have to understand that bad things happen everywhere and i wish i could stop it but i cant.

So in Jorden what this book states is not true? she states its Islamic, ISLAMIC do you understand.  Yes things happen in countries that shouldnt, and people go by what they should not, but its a fact, its Islamic its just that you dont want to believe it.

aisha wrote: yes we know this happens,but what we are saying is that these people are not true muslims they have got it wrong i beg you to read the quran in english you will not find it suports such wickedness.

I have read the quran, twice.  There are also some horrific things said in that also.  I will get the quran and state it on here some of the things that are un human.

Sandra, honour killings is not islamic. Whatever happened to those women is very unfortunate and shouldn't happen but honour killings can happen anywhere from anyone despite it being dominated in most islamic countries, just because something happens in a islamic country does not make it islamic.

I sense you are passionate about this issue but please remember is it not soley from islam - it can happen anywhere from anyone or under different names.

Honour killings is a cultural thing that had/has gotten mixed in with religion that is why it looks as if these killings are from. Separate cultural and religion and you'll see the difference.

Here below is a couple of part interviews with Queen Rania of Jordon, it is from her own offical website: http://www.queenrania.jo/ - http://www.queenrania.jo/

Thursday, October 16, 2003
With Alan Murray & Gloria Borger
CNBC, Capital Report  

MURRAY: One of the causes you've taken up at home is combating these honor killings which, as I understand it, are situations where men kill women, maybe their relatives, their spouses for immoral behavior. Are you making progress on that?

QUEEN RANIA: Slowly, but surely. I think, you know, when it comes to changing these kinds of things, on the one hand you want to change some of the laws. On the other hand, it's even more important to change some of the perceptions and social attitudes, and those take a long time to happen. You need to start from the bottom up. You need to have educational awareness campaigns. You need to enlist leaders in society to talk to people about this issue. But we are very committed to eradicating this practice. Let me say that as much as something that happens in Jordan, it happens in many countries of the world, sometimes under a different label like crimes of passion, but I believe that the world has a long way to go for combating this issue of violence against women.

BORGER: Well, there is a story recently of an Iraqi exile, for example, who slit his own 16-year-old daughter's throat because he thought she had behaved in some kind of immoral way. You have tried to go to your legislature to get the "light" sentences for these kinds of crimes reduced, and you lost

QUEEN RANIA: This is part of the process, you know. This is when you have a democracy and an elected parliament; sometimes, you know, they disagree on these kinds of issues. And I think the result--this disagreement comes as a result of ignorance of the issue. People don't necessarily understand what crimes of honor actually mean. And they don't understand that it's against our religion, that there is no honor in taking the law in your own hands, and that's something we have to communicate to the people.

MURRAY: And do you feel like you're making progress on that?

QUEEN RANIA: Slowly, but, you know, as long as we're committed, I think in the end, we will take care of this issue. We're very committed to that.

And this is with Oprah: http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_past_20011005_d.jhtml - http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_past_20011005_d.jht ml

Oprah: What is life like for Muslim women in Jordan? I think we all have a misinterpretation that the women wearing the robes are dominated by men, that the women don't have a voice of their own. Is any part of that true?

Queen Rania: In Jordan, women lead a very free life. We find the level of education for men and women in Jordan is equal. We have women who participate in the business sector, in government, in the armed forces, in the police force, women judges. They're very much free to choose what kind of life they want to lead. The lives that they lead here are very similar to those that you see in other countries in the world.

That is not to say that they don't have challenges, but I think that the challenges that women face in Jordan are very similar to those that you see in other countries in the world, particularly developing countries. The obstacles that they face are more social or cultural hindrances. Women in our part of the world have to be encouraged to be more confident, to voice their concerns, to fight for their legal rights, and to do what the women in the States and in Europe did: try to gain their rights by voicing their concerns and fighting for them.

Oprah: One of the things that we have been horrified by in the U.S., and I've actually done several shows about here, are http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_2000/tows_past_20000929_f.jhtml - honor killings . I know you have campaigned against honor killings, the Jordanian parliament however, as I understand it, has rejected laws that would treat those crimes as seriously as other homicides. Where does that stand now?

Queen Rania: It's very important for me to clarify that honor kilings are not in any way condoned or accepted in Islam. They are, in fact, un-Islamic. These are more cultural and social aspects that we have to deal with here.

What we're looking to do here in Jordan, and our voices have been heard and many people have been rallying, is to try to explain the whole issue of honor killings, and to try to explain where Islam stands [on] this issue. Once we have this open dialogue and we reach to the grassroots where people can understand this issue, we are hoping through democratic process to change these laws that we have in Jordan.

The problem was the fact that people didn't understand what honor killings were and how often they were happening and all the dimensions of the issue. We need more public awareness about the issue and that's what we're doing right now. It's only a matter of time before these laws that you're referring to are going to be changed.

Also I have just read in a local magazine and since you are in Australia it is in the latest Women's Weekly, a more recent interview where Queen Rania mentions that she is working towards and educating people, families in awareness of domestic voilence. 

Sandra,

Please, would you define:  Muslim, Islam and Islamic.  You don't seem to have a clue what these mean.

ummziba.

Khadija,

I have just read your post on the brothers forum, and I have taken it to heart.  I think I get WAY to passionate in my responses sometimes.

Sandra,I'm not sure what you mean by "I go by the whole Islamic women that have stated this".  ARe you implying you've spoken to every muslim woman in Islam?  I"m sure this is not the case.  Sandra, you have spoken to many good muslims here who tell you that this is not what islam is about.  Why do our opinions not count, but yet the negative opinions abuot Islam do?  Sometimes I think we tend to look for the type of "truth" that will validate our own opinions and pre-conceived notions.  I hope that makes sense.  Anyway, I hope you find whatever answers you are looking for.  Take care, and thank you for supporting womens rights.

sandra wrote: aisha wrote: yes we know this happens,but what we are saying is that these people are not true muslims they have got it wrong i beg you to read the quran in english you will not find it suports such wickedness. I have read the quran, twice.  There are also some horrific things said in that also.  I will get the quran and state it on here some of the things that are un human.

Before you do, only state the relevent points for this topic, please and place others elsewhere in its appriorate forums. 

Sandra, no one is saying you are spreading hatred! We all don't want to see women (or anyone for that matter) to get hurt of killed.

Nor are we denying you anything, it is very commendable that you want to very much help these women, as if we here do not! but what we are saying is that its not islamic, it is a cultural thing that has and is mixed up with religion.  

I might I add that you don't know ALL muslim women  even those here on the boards don't know ALL muslim women.

Why do you think honour killings is islamic ? You seem so adement about that.

Ya Allah!

Sandra.  Again, no one here has denied that "honour killings" don't happen!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again.  Please, would you define: Muslim, Islam and Islamic.  You are very confused, and not listening (the exact thing you accuse us of!!!).

ummziba.

HardStudy wrote: I can't believe what I am reading. This is a laugh. It's obvious to me that people in here are very naieve. It's on the news here almost everyday about islamic violence. But let's look further than that. We have not just book after book that closed minded people allow to go over their heads, (because their religion teachs them that it is wrong to read such books) but web page after web page that show just how islamic rule is not only violent, but how it covers itself from people like yourselves that do not know the truth. I don't know where you are all from by I bet my bottom dollar that you are not living in an Arab country like Jordan or Iraq before it had it's roof lifted. Or even now, because war seems to have opened the door more so to rape than ever. As for you Quran readers, read it again, but this time with an open mind. I have a quote here that I know will not change your minds, but have a look anyway. You religious people astound me. One thing I have noticed is that you read the Quran, or the Old Testament and decide that that's the right one for you and nothing else matters. Open your minds. It's right out there in the open and I don't care how islamic you think you are, you can't be truly a "This day and age islam follower" if you think it is not violent. Here read this. "The Quran says many things about many issues. Many verses are intended for specific people, specific events, specific periods of time, etc, and are not intended to be universally applied, nor are they universal declarations. If you want to understand the Quran you�ll have to know not only the context of the verse, but also its application, chronological setting, and "continued validity". Otherwise anyone can quote the Quran out of context to prove their point." This was taken from http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/hassaballa_violence1.ht m which happens to tell it as it really is. It is really like this too because we see it on television, on the web, from women that escape their men. You only have to go as far as Melbourne airport here in Australia to see new women finding there way over here every day that have in one way or another escaped their so called men. Have a look here, this is another of many many sites that I can give you on Islamic violence. Admin: url has been removed I give you this advice, get rid of that Islamic male standing over your shoulder being enraged about what this sandra person is saying and type what you really feel. I think she needs a tolt of that hat for speaking what she believes as truth. I also think you should step aside, open your mind and give a little thought to anybody that disagrees with you. You people have tried nailing sandra with comments like "spewing hate" since she started posted as far as I can see and she has only tried to be nice. I am surprised she has lasted this long being tolerant. It shows right here in this forum the behaviour of typical islamic violence and unjust discrimination. Use your "your racist" comments where they are needed by all means, but where they are needed.

Well finally i see an opened minded person, Thankyou Hardstudy, i have read your forum and yes unfortunately alot of muslims do not have an open mind on on what is happening to there own brothers and sisters in other Islamic countries.  I have lasted in here because i feel sorry for people that do not have an open mind.  Islamic women are getting tortured as we speak. thanks again.

Angel wrote: Sandra, no one is saying you are spreading hatred! We all don't want to see women (or anyone for that matter) to get hurt of killed. Nor are we denying you anything, it is very commendable that you want to very much help these women, as if we here do not! but what we are saying is that its not islamic, it is a cultural thing that has and is mixed up with religion.   I might I add that you don't know ALL muslim women  even those here on the boards don't know ALL muslim women. Why do you think honour killings is islamic ? You seem so adement about that.

yes your correct i dont know all muslim women, but people here keep saying its not the Islamic way that they are mixing or culture with the Islamic religon.  WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS IF THEY ARE ISLAMIC for eg: catholics dont mix culture with there religion, they dont say killing or hurting others is catholic if its not.  It is happeing true fact, even if you dont want to believe they say its Islamic they are saying its the Islamic way, why are they saying it, and why isnt anyone doing anythning about it.  Its not enough just speaking about it, right now another women has been murded only because she is powerless, yet the male wins again. WRONG totally inhuman.

My Sis Sandra,

May I like to add something to your question, that may help to understand the picture you have in your mind, a little more clear than before. Yes, your observation of "honor killing" is a not just a fact, but a known fact. But what is wrong with this fact is to make it exclusively for Muslim countries only. What about your research on non-Islamic ones (but yet poor countries)? Have you done any over there? My point in raising this point is not to divert from this problem from Muslim countries, but to highlight its general occurance irrespective of religion or faith. For example, in your own words the example of jordanian Catholic family has nothing to do with Islam nor with Islamic law at all, but yet it happened in that family because of their common culture of that country. "They are not even muslims, this actual family was Catholic living in Jordan, and whilst you live in Jordan, Muslim or not you have to go buy Jordanian rules." So members of this Catholic family was involved in honor killing is a classical example of being culture based than faith based. Also, I noticed some wrong terminology being used to make this phenomenon more of a faith based than culture or nation based. Here is your quote "......So therefore most women, Islamic women were and are still constricted.  Why im reading that this is not the Islamic way, when even you are saying that its slowly changing......" First of all, there is no term like "Islamic women". If you mean any women who believes in Islam, then she is called Muslim women and not Islamic women. So when we call Muslim men or Muslim women, we mean the actions of the people who practice Islam but not necessarily according to the doctrine of Islam. For example, those who are held in the jails of Islamic countries, many of them must be Muslims done some very henious crimes, but yet they are Muslims too. The important question is if this act as what they have done is according to Islamic doctrine or not? I hope this shall clarify some of your perception.

Yet another dimension to this barbaric practice is to see as what Quran tells us about how to deal with such cases.  Here is one of the references from Quran to let you begin your own search on the subject "024.004 YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;- "

AhmadJoyia wrote: My Sis Sandra, May I like to add something to your question, that may help to understand the picture you have in your mind, a little more clear than before. Yes, your observation of "honor killing" is a not just a fact, but a known fact. But what is wrong with this fact is to make it exclusively for Muslim countries only. What about your research on non-Islamic ones (but yet poor countries)? Have you done any over there? My point in raising this point is not to divert from this problem from Muslim countries, but to highlight its general occurance irrespective of religion or faith. For example, in your own words the example of jordanian Catholic family has nothing to do with Islam nor with Islamic law at all, but yet it happened in that family because of their common culture of that country. "They are not even muslims, this actual family was Catholic living in Jordan, and whilst you live in Jordan, Muslim or not you have to go buy Jordanian rules." So members of this Catholic family was involved in honor killing is a classical example of being culture based than faith based. Also, I noticed some wrong terminology being used to make this phenomenon more of a faith based than culture or nation based. Here is your quote "......So therefore most women, Islamic women were and are still constricted.  Why im reading that this is not the Islamic way, when even you are saying that its slowly changing......" First of all, there is no term like "Islamic women". If you mean any women who believes in Islam, then she is called Muslim women and not Islamic women. So when we call Muslim men or Muslim women, we mean the actions of the people who practice Islam but not necessarily according to the doctrine of Islam. For example, those who are held in the jails of Islamic countries, many of them must be Muslims done some very henious crimes, but yet they are Muslims too. The important question is if this act as what they have done is according to Islamic doctrine or not? I hope this shall clarify some of your perception. Yet another dimension to this barbaric practice is to see as what Quran tells us about how to deal with such cases.  Here is one of the references from Quran to let you begin your own search on the subject "024.004 YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;- " First of all this verse clearly asks the accuser to produce  4 witnesses for his allegation and in the absence of which he himself must be punished "flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" Secondly, these witnesses or accusers have no justification of taking the law in their own hand. All matters (in a civilized Muslim society) must be handled through the established system of law and justice. I hope this shall provide you clear invitation to read the Quran yourself than merely listening to media. Indeed, Allah knows the best.

I thankyou for your nice reply and excuse me if i say Islamic women i do mean muslim women im trying to explain to others that i have spoken and really looked into these Isamics they way some life, and its horrific.  I am happy whom i am and do not wish to read the quran the third time, and i live life to the fullest.  I dont go by any thing like allah as some state or any other non living person that i have never seen before.  I live life as a good human not hurting others and help others and family thats the best way to live, not living by a religion that 90% of the time people go insane over.  We as humans should live and not devote life to religion when we should learn to live a good and healthly life, its a fact that religion kills people all the time, is this really what people want??? because it happens with religion, and to me thats in human with any religion.  Good Karma thats all one needs, to believe in his or herself and live life in a kind way, religion again only does damage to life and humans.

HardStudy wrote: If you are still not convinced. This piece of information links directly to Jordan and Honor killings. Admin: url has been removed Take a look at that and tell me what you think. Sandra you may be interested in these sites that I am posting also.

The link that you posted the last one is not working, i would love to read it.

Sandra said :

 I want to hear your views on this.  We know these women more often than not, will say that they believe in what the male says and that he is totally correct, however deep down they are horrified and quite often waiting for their day to come.  Please, let me know what you think and drop an opinion here.  I would be interested indeed to see your point of view.

Yes Sandra I hear you. You have the right to give your opinion and I respect that and that you are trying to help.Please just tell me "ARE ALL YOUR FINGERS ALIKE". Of course not.  I know alot of Non Muslim women who fear their "boyfriends" and are scared to talk. 

I see your point but what men are doing as you have said "killing honour" no matter what their religion,  is no explanation for their doings. As for islam "The real Islam"(islam means Peace) is very pure. And I am not telling you,  you have to convert or anything but like you have opinions others do to.Try to understand more.

As for HardStudy  

I understand what you say but please don't say "You people " we are normal human beings just like you or any other else.

And make sure we are judged by what we say and do whom ever we are.        

And we are not ignorant because we read the Quran, we are more open minded. You should read what the other religious books say. they are so similar to islam ie.  the bible,....

With all respect to all..

HardStudy wrote: Don't get me wrong sandra, it's not just muslims. There are many religions that have violents and people do tend to pick on the muslims more than any religion. However, for people in here to say that honor killings are not driven by islamic people are just silly. It takes nothing to go down the street and buy a heap of books from women like that Norah or whatever her name is that you speak about. Here in Australia domestic violence is indeed an issue like anywhere. However, in my studies I have never found it legal to kill your wife because she misrepresented her husbands name. It's rediculous. And although it was covered from the western civilized worlds eyes for many years, it is more and more becoming apparent that Jordanian men are not following their changing laws and their women are not defying them. I wouldn't defy them either with the threat of being stabbed 5 times in the chest.

Yes many horrific violence are in western wolds all over europe also, but most muslims dont want to have to face the fact that this goes on in Islamic countires, i can see why, because they will be threatened by it, so they tend to look past it.  But its time they look beyond this point and if they do they may save another Islamic women from being killed by a extremist Islamic male.  No body wants to believe that what they are following is commiting such horrific crimes, as the christians there are sick preists that have commited abuse to children, and christans have to accept that even tho this goes on they cant say it does not, because it does, as i get to the point again about Islamic countries, they dont want to believe it and brush it aside. 

sandra wrote: its a fact that religion kills people all the time,

Really, all the time??

Angel wrote: sandra wrote: its a fact that religion kills people all the time, Really, all the time??

Well you tell me what happens when you put an Islamic person in a room with a catholic person??? do they communicate most of the time or are they preaching each others beliefs to one another? this creates violence, known fact, war is all about violence, Hitler hated the Jewish, again boils down to religion.

HardStudy wrote: Actually, religion kills people everyday.  Not a day has passed for centuries that religion has not killed someone in one way or another.  And here is another point that you closed mindeds will not like hearing.  Religion is the longest on going war that has ever existed and if Jesus were here, he would tell you how true that really is.

Very true, good point there.

My Sis Sandra,

I have full respect for your faith as what you believe. Its not the purpose to convert you to Islam when I asked you to search Quran, but to verify the facts at your own and through your own open mind and logic. Though you have alluded to have read Quran twice, but how could you miss out this verse (and many more on the subject), especially when research is done for such a noble cause of fighting against the immorality?

Regarding your comments regarding religion vs atheist etc, I reserve my comments for its proper forum to respond in, as for this topic under discussion, I think, they are little way off.

sandra wrote: Religion means nothing to me, all it means is hatred.

fine but it does't exactly change the fact...

I am only stating the facts on Islamic women that are being treated in horrific manners, and most will tell me this is not Islamic, but they are saying they are Islamic, why people dont listen to this? because they dont want to know the truth.

Are you talking to us here specifically or in general? If it us here, WE ARE LISTENING!

And actually you are not stating facts, you are stating that honor killings, mostly in Jordon is Islamic for the fact you have read a few others experiences, horrible ones at that. And this you take on the whole as being for all muslim women. Still being in Jordon, I believe there are families that don't go through honor killings as well, what do you say about those?

As I mentioned before you are so adement that honour killings is islamic, Why?

And if you have read the qu'ran twice, then you must know whether its states/mentions honor killings, so does it ? 

Why don't you listen to us, open a little and think for a bit.

And what is your thoughts on Queen Rania's interviews on the topic ?  

Hope you will answer as I am asking sincerely.

sandra wrote: Angel wrote: sandra wrote: its a fact that religion kills people all the time, Really, all the time??   Well you tell me what happens when you put an Islamic person in a room with a catholic person??? do they communicate most of the time or are they preaching each others beliefs to one another?

being here for a long time, although we have a moments in arguments, we mostly communicate each others beliefs. 

I don't think sandra comments on the families that work well, because that isn't horrifying.  If the family is working well great, but thats not what this thread is about.  It's about the failing families that slaughter their own children, that just happen to go under what they see as islamic law.  It's plain and simply true.  Anyway, I have waffled on here enough as it is.  It's no different to any forum, you have your listeners, your non-listeners, and then those that hear and those that won't.  Cheers for the chat people.  Good luck sandra.  Your going to need it to get through to this lot.

One thing I will say before I go.  "What Islamic rule is "suppose" to represent and what it actually "does" represent are two different things in most cases.  Goto Jordan and see how long you last with a short skirt.  Tell a man that he can not push you around.  An Islamic man.  See how long you last.  Later people.

sandra wrote: HardStudy wrote: Actually, religion kills people everyday.  Not a day has passed for centuries that religion has not killed someone in one way or another.  And here is another point that you closed mindeds will not like hearing.  Religion is the longest on going war that has ever existed and if Jesus were here, he would tell you how true that really is. Very true, good point there.

So does fighting for land, money, greed and jealously. 

My bro HardStudy,

I hope and wish to remain focus on the topic of this thread than opening up plethora of un-related and yet un-ending disucussion to divert from the main topic. "........And here is another point that you closed mindeds will not like hearing........" However, if you still insist on doing so, why not open another thread, of your choice, and let us see what all we can share our thoughts with you? Such statments of yours do nothing but instigate others; a fact that provides a total mirror image of what you preach. Isn't it?

AhmadJoyia wrote: My Sis Sandra, I have full respect for your faith as what you believe. Its not the purpose to convert you to Islam when I asked you to search Quran, but to verify the facts at your own and through your own open mind and logic. Though you have alluded to have read Quran twice, but how could you miss out this verse (and many more on the subject), especially when research is done for such a noble cause of fighting against the immorality? Regarding your comments regarding religion vs atheist etc, I reserve my comments for its proper forum to respond in, as for this topic under discussion, I think, they are little way off.

Im not saying i dont acknowledge  what is said in the quran, i am stating that these killing of honours are what most Islamic people say is accepted in there countries.  All i know is what is reality i dont care that i have read the quran or other bibles in my life, i go by what is reality and what i see with my own eyes, this is the best way to know what is real and what is not in society.

Angel wrote: sandra wrote: Religion means nothing to me, all it means is hatred. fine but it does't exactly change the fact... I am only stating the facts on Islamic women that are being treated in horrific manners, and most will tell me this is not Islamic, but they are saying they are Islamic, why people dont listen to this? because they dont want to know the truth. Are you talking to us here specifically or in general? If it us here, WE ARE LISTENING! And actually you are not stating facts, you are stating that honor killings, mostly in Jordon is Islamic for the fact you have read a few others experiences, horrible ones at that. And this you take on the whole as being for all muslim women. Still being in Jordon, I believe there are families that don't go through honor killings as well, what do you say about those? As I mentioned before you are so adement that honour killings is islamic, Why? And if you have read the qu'ran twice, then you must know whether its states/mentions honor killings, so does it ?  Why don't you listen to us, open a little and think for a bit. And what is your thoughts on Queen Rania's interviews on the topic ?   Hope you will answer as I am asking sincerely.

I am so adement that honour killings are going on in most Islamic countires because i have the facts that it is happening, why else would i say it because im not muslim, im Australian so i have nothing to gain from it, i actually help out for these crying women.  Why do most people in general and i speak in general to answer your question, that they only want me to listen to the real muslim people? why those i have spoken to that cry for help are non mulisim?? they only want to hear the good and not the bad thats is happeing well reality is its happeing now each day.

sandra wrote: Im not saying i dont acknowledge  what is said in the quran, i am stating that these killing of honours are what most Islamic people say is accepted in there countries.  All i know is what is reality i dont care that i have read the quran or other bibles in my life, i go by what is reality and what i see with my own eyes, this is the best way to know what is real and what is not in society.

Sis Sandra,

Of course every criminal will have justification for his henious crimes, but would that make it legitimate? I agree with your reality and am ready to go with you to fight against such realities. However, when it comes to linking this reality with Islam, you may not be doing justice to your ownself simply because, now at least, you know that its not the source of such evil practices.

sandra wrote: Angel wrote: sandra wrote: Religion means nothing to me, all it means is hatred. fine but it does't exactly change the fact... I am only stating the facts on Islamic women that are being treated in horrific manners, and most will tell me this is not Islamic, but they are saying they are Islamic, why people dont listen to this? because they dont want to know the truth. Are you talking to us here specifically or in general? If it us here, WE ARE LISTENING! And actually you are not stating facts, you are stating that honor killings, mostly in Jordon is Islamic for the fact you have read a few others experiences, horrible ones at that. And this you take on the whole as being for all muslim women. Still being in Jordon, I believe there are families that don't go through honor killings as well, what do you say about those? As I mentioned before you are so adement that honour killings is islamic, Why? And if you have read the qu'ran twice, then you must know whether its states/mentions honor killings, so does it ?  Why don't you listen to us, open a little and think for a bit. And what is your thoughts on Queen Rania's interviews on the topic ?   Hope you will answer as I am asking sincerely. I am so adement that honour killings are going on in most Islamic countires because i have the facts that it is happening,

So you saying that because it is happening in most islamic countries, then it must be islamic ?

Might I say and I mentioned this earlier, just because something happens in an islamic country does not make it islamic!

Heck we have Dubai with its casinos and horseracing, gambling is against islam but yet we have it here in Dubai, so is gambling islamic then because it is in an islamic country ?

We have belly-dancing happening over most islamic countries (its abrab tradition) but baring skin is forbidden and so is that type of dancing in islam, so again is belly dancing islamic because it is in an islamic country ?

why else would i say it because im not muslim, im Australian so i have nothing to gain from it, i actually help out for these crying women.  Why do most people in general and i speak in general to answer your question, that they only want me to listen to the real muslim people? why those i have spoken to that cry for help are non mulisim?? they only want to hear the good and not the bad thats is happeing well reality is its happeing now each day.

No one is saying those muslim women are non muslim, I'm not, I do remember one person that did and I replied to that person to about being wrong but I also knew where they were coming from, while you didn't. 

sandra wrote: JulAsif wrote:   Khadija,   I have just read your post on the brothers forum, and I have taken it to heart.  I think I get WAY to passionate in my responses sometimes. Sandra,I'm not sure what you mean by "I go by the whole Islamic women that have stated this".  ARe you implying you've spoken to every muslim woman in Islam?  I"m sure this is not the case.  Sandra, you have spoken to many good muslims here who tell you that this is not what islam is about.  Why do our opinions not count, but yet the negative opinions abuot Islam do?  Sometimes I think we tend to look for the type of "truth" that will validate our own opinions and pre-conceived notions.  I hope that makes sense.  Anyway, I hope you find whatever answers you are looking for.  Take care, and thank you for supporting womens rights. Thankyou Khadija for understanding what im trying to stread accross, some one has said have i spoken to all muslims well of course not so do they want me to speak to the mulsims that are not cryingfor help? that would be a waist of time would it? They are not learing and hearing the real cries for help in most muslim Islamic countries that they state this is what they believe is what god tells them to do is to punish women if they do not follow  the mans world.  Why do they insist to tell me other wise or that i have only spoken to the muslim women that are not telling me the truth.  I have heard the truth this happens weather they like if or not, and i at least am trying to something about it as all women should be free and liberated not constrictive to anything, and yet im not even a muslim, what does this tell you about me? that im a good human, even if some in here keep thinking im spreading hate, well they have it wrong, they need to study into many muslim Islamic cultures and if what they are believing in is wrong and what they are doing in these Islamic countires to women are not by the quran or Islamic religion, why dont these other muslims like in this forum that are saying it does not happen just look around there shoulder and help them to fix this true horrific problem instead of just talking and abusing it, and telling people like myself that i have it wrong, i know of a women that has been killed and her family was following the ISLAMIC RELIGION there is only one Islamic religion, so what are these muslims telling me? they tell me this because they live in a liberated country well what i can say to them, go vist an non liberated Islamic country and then come back and appologise to me.  Thankyou for your kindness and i see you have a open mind at least that is great and very intelligent.

Sandra, back on page 4 (above I quoted you entire post) you thanked me for agreeing with you; however, I didn't say that, JulAsif did.  Please don't credit me for something I didn't say.  Although I may agree that it is wonderful to fight against true oppression like with what is happening in Jordan with the "honor killings", I, in no way, shape or form believe that this is the fault of ISLAM.  Islam is a beautiful religion that professes peace, compassion and understand.  If someone who calls themself "Muslim" is committing horrid acts of violence, then they are not following Islam.  GET IT STRAIGHT!!!!  And if you and your friends here think for one second that religion kills, you are so wrong and are blinded by your own ignorance.  Religion doesn't kill, PEOPLE kill.  As long as we blame wrong actions on anything or anyone other than he/she who did it, the seeds of hate and violence will continue to grow in this world.  Do you really think the fact that you are not religious makes you better than others? 

PAZ Khadija 

Arabian wrote: Hey, have we forgotten Suleyman's wonderful post about women? http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1309&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1309& ; ;PN=1

Brother i am so far away from the board for 6 months...insh'allah i will be back with my writings...make duas for me....wa salaam...

Jenni wrote: Sandra, you don't get the fact that culture and religon are two seperate things. In India there is a practice of TorI TorI where the husband or mother in law of the bride throw carosene on the girl and light her on FIRE<YES BURN HER ALIVE!!!!! This is being done mainly by Hindus and thousands of women are being affected every year. What is the reason for this??? THE WOMEN DIDN'T GIVE ENOUGH OF A DOWRY FROM THERE FAMILY!!! Yes thats it, Money. The guy does not want to have to get a legal divorce marry a new woman because he will have to pay alimony so he just burns the current one. Then he hopes to marry a new bride and get another dowry from her family. Now I as a muslim who has hindu friends know that this is not part of there religon. I would never be ingnorant to say, Hey why are you Hindus doing this? It is a cultural practice, and does not there plight enrage you as much as the muslim womens???

Jenni dear, i am not the one to blame saying its what Islamics do and what they do they say its what allha tells them to do, ITS THEM THEMSELVES TELLING US WESTERNERS WHEN WE ASK WHY THEY DO THIS, im only going by what they tell and say to us and these 100s of women that i have spoken and trying to help out, do you think really that i have said this out of my own will because im not a muslim women???? please

sandra wrote: Jenni wrote: Sandra, you don't get the fact that culture and religon are two seperate things. In India there is a practice of TorI TorI where the husband or mother in law of the bride throw carosene on the girl and light her on FIRE<YES BURN HER ALIVE!!!!! This is being done mainly by Hindus and thousands of women are being affected every year. What is the reason for this??? THE WOMEN DIDN'T GIVE ENOUGH OF A DOWRY FROM THERE FAMILY!!! Yes thats it, Money. The guy does not want to have to get a legal divorce marry a new woman because he will have to pay alimony so he just burns the current one. Then he hopes to marry a new bride and get another dowry from her family. Now I as a muslim who has hindu friends know that this is not part of there religon. I would never be ingnorant to say, Hey why are you Hindus doing this? It is a cultural practice, and does not there plight enrage you as much as the muslim womens??? Jenni dear, i am not the one to blame saying its what Islamics do and what they do they say its what allha tells them to do, ITS THEM THEMSELVES TELLING US WESTERNERS WHEN WE ASK WHY THEY DO THIS, im only going by what they tell and say to us and these 100s of women that i have spoken and trying to help out, do you think really that i have said this out of my own will because im not a muslim women???? please

Hey jenni you tell me that Hindus do this to a girl, well how can i believe this like most in here tell me "oh this such thing cant be going on with real muslim believers?" well jenni im not closed minded and yet if this does happen in Hindu well i wouldnt be suprised.  But i feel pitty for most muslim believers that dont want to face facts, i tell you why because they are afraid to face reality, they dont want to believe that in there religion murder in cleansing their honour is legal.  They keep telling me that these muslims that do this are not really following there religion, well bullsh*t, they follow it alright and its legal even if they dont want to accept it, its a form of Islamic extremist legal believe in the true Islamic religion.  Because they tend to live in more liberated countries they assume this is not going on with those that preach to allah and are true muslims, but they have it wrong. 

Jenni wrote: SANDRA MURDER or honor killings is not legal in our religon, that is not what you understand. People with knowledge understand that. Yes adultery or premarital sex is illegal for a man or woman in an Islamic society when they have those laws in place but very few countries do. And there must be four witnesses to attest to this. People have used culture and religon to hide behind thier bad deeds from the beggining, all people. However religon has freed people from bondage and many bad cultural practices but not all. I think you have an Islamaphobic attitude and are targeting what some ignorant muslims are doing. Instead of focusing on the larger picture of girls and womens rights worldwide. I have given you two other examples of India and China and I could go on for days about the suffering of women but you would still be stuck on this issue. And Sandra don't be naive anyone can wright a book and say anything they want!!!

Jenni how nieve do you think i am??? do you really think i only go buy one book i have read?? please now im lauging, i work with Islamic women you dont know my trade so therefore you will not understand what i know to the fact that remains in Most Islamic countries it still states as fact that these killings are accepted by Islamic law because its cleansing the name of honour.  Point blank.  I know what goes on in most of the countries like china and korea and tibet where i have also visited and lived for a couple of years.  To say what i know, i only say what i witness, not by one single book dear.

Assalamu alaikum,

Here is an excellent site on the true teachings of Islam concerning women:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm - http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm

Assalamu alaikum

Here is an article that discusses an Islamic conference that dealt with the issue of honor killings and the best means to bring an end to this unislamic barbarity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1328238.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1328238.stm

Assalamu alaikum,

As for religion being more prone to cause innocent death than other ideologies, the greatest murderers in history are Gengis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot, none of whom were motivated by religion. In fact the last two were motivated by atheism, while Hitler was motivated by the notion of racial purity, which was derived from Darwinian theory.

Arabian,

I don't always agree with what you say, I wanted you to know that I do appreciate your thoughtfulness.  It was very kind of your to post the article that Suleyman posted on another thread.  Thank you for your thoughtful support.

Khadija 

aisha wrote: thats really hit the nail on the head,i  almost thought i  wrote that myself!to all concerned I LOVE ALLAH AND I LOVE BEING A MUSLIM,ALLAHU AKBAR!

aisha your just a uneducated muslim that us westerners would not even help you if you were on fire, as i have now proven my point in this forum now i am glad that they have delected some of my posts because this shows me that i have succeeded in both sending my message to all those evil men in the middle east and women like you that are too naieve to hear me out.  There is no skin off my nose, i will now join every Islamic forum i possibly can with copies of my posts from within this forum and spread them like wild fire accross the middle east.  I also will be sure to join as many western society forums with all the information and posts that i recieved from this forum so that all will know just how petty, naieve and violent as some of you on this forum have been.  I cannot understand how Rami (a moderator here) can delete some of my posts for speaking the truth, but yet allows an Islamic male on this forum to threaten me.  It just goes to show once again how violence in Islamic rule prospers over peace.

Islamic male...like a car model...today is so much for me...i can die...

Suleyman wrote: Islamic male...like a car model...today is so much for me...i can die...

Suleyman you are just out for a fight, and i will be reporting you again, this is not a fight club, this is a discussion board, this is simply what im trying to do.

She called my name, i can't believe...is she entering to Islam,may be?;who knows?...

I know things like this do happen.

But mostly books and campaigns are raised with the pure sellability prospect. One example, Salman Rushdie knew he had run out of steam. His other novels proved to be boring and did not sell as much as he had hoped. His research showed that "Satanic Verses" would turn into a top seller.

Then one Tehmina someone wrote a controvercial book in Bangladesh and again earned the most favoured Muslim status with the West. Around her time it was said in some circles that if you wish to migrate to anywhere in the western world and have a 5 star living, just call a few names to the Prophet or drag Islam through the pits.

Our Dutch MP, forget her name right at this minute (its almost 2 a. m here in Spain) shot to fame and a seat in the parliament through the same strategy.

At times, I am not saying always, it's a good self promotion strategy.

Sandra,

So far you have done nothing on this forum but be degrading to anyone that has not simply bowed in agreement to anything that comes out of your mouth.  Many people have agreed with parts of what you say (i.e., that honor killings do happen and they are horrid); however, that is not good enough for you.  You say that you are open-mined; however, if someone doesn�t agree with you 100%, you accuse them of being close- minded, ignorant and uneducated.  This is what you said about Aisha, �aisha your just a uneducated muslim that us westerners would not even help you if you were on fire.�  And why did you make that response?  Because she said something mean or inappropriate to you?  No, the only thing she did was to agree with an article that was posted about a Muslim woman and how she feels about her faith and in so writing that article she spoke out against a materialistic lifestyle.  Are you saying that for saying that, Aisha deserves to die, to be burnt to death?????????  If this is truly the way you feel, and we can assume so since it came from your own post, then what makes you better than those in Jordan who do �honor kills�?  Is it because you would merely stand back and watch as she burns to death that you would not be guilty of the same type of horrendous crime?  I don�t know about your country but in mine, if a person stands back and watches another person die without offering some kind of help, they are just as guilty of murdering that person as if they have done it with their own hands.

Sandra, how many Muslim women (and yes, we are Muslim women, not Islamic women), have you personally spoken with?  You keep refusing to answer this as well as other direct questions.   Is it 5, 50, 500, 5000?  I�m not talking about how many you have read about or been told about, but rather, how many you have personally spoken with.  A nice rough figure would suffice.  There are roughly 450,000 Muslims living in Australia with an overall population in your country of roughly 19 million people so I would assume that you have not spoken with more than 450,000 of them.  If I wanted to get a true story on current life in Australia, what percentage of the Australian population would I need to speak with?  Can I simply read a book?  If so, can I read simply any book I choose to read on Australia?  Did you know that there are roughly 2 billion Muslims in the world and that they live in every single country in this world?  Did you know that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world?  And, did you know that less that 25% of all Muslims are actually Arab?  So, how many of them did you say you have spoken with?  Where they all from Jordan?  Or were they from other countries as well?  If so, which countries?  And did they all say that �honor killings� are taking place in their countries of origin?  And how many of these Muslim women have left their faith, Islam? 

I think the real heart of the issue for you is that you don�t like anyone that doesn�t choose your lifestyle.  You, yourself, said in an earlier post that �Religion means nothing to me, all it means is hatred.�  In saying this, it appears that you have already made up your mind about Islam.  It doesn�t matter what we have pointed out to you.  Or what the Qur�an actually says.  You say that you have read it twice already but are unable to give us one single ayat (verse) that supposes your position that Islam condones honor kills.  On the other hand, we have given you plenty of ayats (verses) that prove just the opposite.  But since religion means nothing to you, so what, right? 

You said that you have read the Qur�an twice, but you ask me why women cover themselves (by the way, this is called hijabb).  If you had read the Qur�an twice, you would known why we wear hijabb.  It plainly states in the Qur�an why we do so.  I�m a new Muslim and have only read it once and I know why they wear it.  Did you know that in Turkey, the government has banned Muslim women from wearing hijabb and the Muslim women are fighting back?  Don�t you think it is horrible for the Turkish government to refuse to let these women wear hijabb?  In doing so, they are oppressing them.  They have taken away these women�s right to choose to live a life of their own choice.  You might want to ask why the Turkish government is doing this.  Do you think it�s for their own good?  Because men are oppressing them?  No, it�s because Turkey wants to be a part of the New European Union and so they are trying to show the world that they are �modern.�  So, Sandra, if you think modernism doesn�t cause oppression, then take another look.  Take a really close look this time. 

There is no one on this site who believes honor killings or any other type of violence is anything other than evil and unjust.  Yet you cannot even give us credit for that much.  I can give you news reports of men in western cultures that have killed their wives for adulteress behaviors�these are not called honor kills, but rather, crimes of passion; however, they are in no true sense categorically different than honor killings.  I know for a fact that in some western cultures, if a man catches his wife in the act of adultery and he kills her (and even the man), he is considered to be temporarily insane and will not be convicted of a crime.  How is this different than what is happening in Jordan?  If, as you say, Islam is responsible for these killings in Jordan, then who is responsible for these same types of killings in western cultures?  Christianity?  Judaism?  Hinduism?  How about in cultures where there is no religion or the government has a strict separation between church and state?  Then who is to blame for them?  Who�s to blame when it happens in Australia?  And don�t tell me crimes of passion don�t happen in your culture.

I think we should be very careful when we make claims to be helping people.  As can be seen by the state of the world today, �helping others� can simply be a justification for relieve them of one form of oppression by replacing it with another type of oppression.  This reminds me of something that a past US President said when asked why he put a dictator into political office in a certain Central America country.  He said, �He may be a dictator, but he�s my damned dictator.�  In other words, most people don�t like it when someone acts in ways they don�t approve of; however, if they do that same act, it�s justifiable.  They always say, �this is different��HOW???? 

PAZ,

Khadija

Jenni wrote: Sandra, if you are worried about honor killings as many of us are, why don't you contact the government of Jordan and any other government that isn't fully prosecuting for murder. What is your point here? To convince all of us that our religon is bad? I say to you again that women all over the world are victims of violence. Some because of culture or religon, some because of alcholol and drugs ect. Why are you targeting Muslims? Here in America a woman is most likely to be murdered by her husband or boyfriend. 1 in 4 women is abused sometime in her life. So does that say that American culture encourages wife murder and beating, no it doesn't. Obviously something is wrong here in America, in Jordan, in China, in India and so on. If you talk to any Muslim Imam or scholar, they will say honor killings are wrong. You are just choosing to target us and vent your anger. There are plenty of Muslim women in Europe and other western countries to complain about opression and what is going on inside thier homelands. We don't need prejudice people to do it for us. We muslim sisters and brothers are trying to stand up for each other on our own!!!

You seem not to understand my point here jenni so when you do i will discuss with you in the near future.  As you say well if murders happen in America should then the American culture be discriminated, NO THIS IS NOT WHAT IM SAYING this is not a standared law in America if you kill anyone no matter what you will be legally compelled for it, but as for most, most islamic countries yet i state that i know of, this is legal and very legal, you might not think that these that do such horrific crimes are not real muslims but they are my dear, you need to sudy up more about your culture than type what you not know off.

Khadija1021 wrote: Sandra,   So far you have done nothing on this forum but be degrading to anyone that has not simply bowed in agreement to anything that comes out of your mouth.  Many people have agreed with parts of what you say (i.e., that honor killings do happen and they are horrid); however, that is not good enough for you.  You say that you are open-mined; however, if someone doesn�t agree with you 100%, you accuse them of being close- minded, ignorant and uneducated.  This is what you said about Aisha, �aisha your just a uneducated muslim that us westerners would not even help you if you were on fire.�  And why did you make that response?  Because she said something mean or inappropriate to you?  No, the only thing she did was to agree with an article that was posted about a Muslim woman and how she feels about her faith and in so writing that article she spoke out against a materialistic lifestyle.  Are you saying that for saying that, Aisha deserves to die, to be burnt to death?????????  If this is truly the way you feel, and we can assume so since it came from your own post, then what makes you better than those in Jordan who do �honor kills�?  Is it because you would merely stand back and watch as she burns to death that you would not be guilty of the same type of horrendous crime?  I don�t know about your country but in mine, if a person stands back and watches another person die without offering some kind of help, they are just as guilty of murdering that person as if they have done it with their own hands. Sandra, how many Muslim women (and yes, we are Muslim women, not Islamic women), have you personally spoken with?  You keep refusing to answer this as well as other direct questions.   Is it 5, 50, 500, 5000?  I�m not talking about how many you have read about or been told about, but rather, how many you have personally spoken with.  A nice rough figure would suffice.  There are roughly 450,000 Muslims living in Australia with an overall population in your country of roughly 19 million people so I would assume that you have not spoken with more than 450,000 of them.  If I wanted to get a true story on current life in Australia, what percentage of the Australian population would I need to speak with?  Can I simply read a book?  If so, can I read simply any book I choose to read on Australia?  Did you know that there are roughly 2 billion Muslims in the world and that they live in every single country in this world?  Did you know that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world?  And, did you know that less that 25% of all Muslims are actually Arab?  So, how many of them did you say you have spoken with?  Where they all from Jordan?  Or were they from other countries as well?  If so, which countries?  And did they all say that �honor killings� are taking place in their countries of origin?  And how many of these Muslim women have left their faith, Islam?  I think the real heart of the issue for you is that you don�t like anyone that doesn�t choose your lifestyle.  You, yourself, said in an earlier post that �Religion means nothing to me, all it means is hatred.�  In saying this, it appears that you have already made up your mind about Islam.  It doesn�t matter what we have pointed out to you.  Or what the Qur�an actually says.  You say that you have read it twice already but are unable to give us one single ayat (verse) that supposes your position that Islam condones honor kills.  On the other hand, we have given you plenty of ayats (verses) that prove just the opposite.  But since religion means nothing to you, so what, right?  You said that you have read the Qur�an twice, but you ask me why women cover themselves (by the way, this is called hijabb).  If you had read the Qur�an twice, you would known why we wear hijabb.  It plainly states in the Qur�an why we do so.  I�m a new Muslim and have only read it once and I know why they wear it.  Did you know that in Turkey, the government has banned Muslim women from wearing hijabb and the Muslim women are fighting back?  Don�t you think it is horrible for the Turkish government to refuse to let these women wear hijabb?  In doing so, they are oppressing them.  They have taken away these women�s right to choose to live a life of their own choice.  You might want to ask why the Turkish government is doing this.  Do you think it�s for their own good?  Because men are oppressing them?  No, it�s because Turkey wants to be a part of the New European Union and so they are trying to show the world that they are �modern.�  So, Sandra, if you think modernism doesn�t cause oppression, then take another look.  Take a really close look this time.  There is no one on this site who believes honor killings or any other type of violence is anything other than evil and unjust.  Yet you cannot even give us credit for that much.  I can give you news reports of men in western cultures that have killed their wives for adulteress behaviors�these are not called honor kills, but rather, crimes of passion; however, they are in no true sense categorically different than honor killings.  I know for a fact that in some western cultures, if a man catches his wife in the act of adultery and he kills her (and even the man), he is considered to be temporarily insane and will not be convicted of a crime.  How is this different than what is happening in Jordan?  If, as you say, Islam is responsible for these killings in Jordan, then who is responsible for these same types of killings in western cultures?  Christianity?  Judaism?  Hinduism?  How about in cultures where there is no religion or the government has a strict separation between church and state?  Then who is to blame for them?  Who�s to blame when it happens in Australia?  And don�t tell me crimes of passion don�t happen in your culture. I think we should be very careful when we make claims to be helping people.  As can be seen by the state of the world today, �helping others� can simply be a justification for relieve them of one form of oppression by replacing it with another type of oppression.  This reminds me of something that a past US President said when asked why he put a dictator into political office in a certain Central America country.  He said, �He may be a dictator, but he�s my damned dictator.�  In other words, most people don�t like it when someone acts in ways they don�t approve of; however, if they do that same act, it�s justifiable.  They always say, �this is different��HOW????  PAZ, Khadija

another thing paz, you say anyone who watches a murder being taken place are as bad as they are, for your infomation this happens all the time in islamic countries, a women from Afghanistan was shot at the back of the head by her own brother in the middle of a football field infront of thousands of muslims, what are you talking about? they were all islamics that watched this killing go on infront of them its even on the internet.  Now are you telling me all these muslims that were watching this killing are not real muslims? its a fact that muslim culture is the most crusual in history, and the most unhuman culture in most muslim countries, yes i have spoken to jordains, afghanistans, sadi arabian women that tell me this is the islamic culture according to the islamic justification.  I only give credit when its needed, credit to women that have had the courage to leave such filth and fear escaping a country that does not condem legal murder.  Please dont tell me what i already know.

sandra wrote: You seem not to understand my point here jenni so when you do i will discuss with you in the near future.  As you say well if murders happen in America should then the American culture be discriminated, NO THIS IS NOT WHAT IM SAYING this is not a standared law in America if you kill anyone no matter what you will be legally compelled for it, but as for most, most islamic countries yet i state that i know of, this is legal and very legal, you might not think that these that do such horrific crimes are not real muslims but they are my dear, you need to sudy up more about your culture than type what you not know off.

I am an American and I am most familiar with American law.  Is it not true that in America, those who commit murder are faced with the death sentence?  How barbaric is this?  Perhaps we need a small history lesson here.

America was founded on Christian beliefs.  The death sentence was created under the terms of 'moral' and religious retribution.  In order for the murder to pay for his crimes he is to confess his sins and accept his punishment.

The best part of America is the separation of church and state.  Although the church remains in many laws, it has slowly and surly crept itself out of many other laws.  Instead of trying to liberate these women from their un-natural punishment you should urge them, along with their male companions to strike against their governments.

Peace,
Arabian

Arabian wrote: sandra wrote: You seem not to understand my point here jenni so when you do i will discuss with you in the near future.  As you say well if murders happen in America should then the American culture be discriminated, NO THIS IS NOT WHAT IM SAYING this is not a standared law in America if you kill anyone no matter what you will be legally compelled for it, but as for most, most islamic countries yet i state that i know of, this is legal and very legal, you might not think that these that do such horrific crimes are not real muslims but they are my dear, you need to sudy up more about your culture than type what you not know off. sandra, I am an American and I am most familiar with American law.  Is it not true that in America, those who commit murder are faced with the death sentence?  How barbaric is this?  Perhaps we need a small history lesson here. America was founded on Christian beliefs.  The death sentence was created under the terms of 'moral' and religious retribution.  In order for the murder to pay for his crimes he is to confess his sins and accept his punishment. The best part of America is the separation of church and state.  Although the church remains in many laws, it has slowly and surly crept itself out of many other laws.  Instead of trying to liberate these women from their un-natural punishment you should urge them, along with their male companions to strike against their governments. Peace, Arabian

good point arabian.  But everyone knows Americans are just also wanting power thats all bush is striving for, but anyway good point.