Interfaith Dialogue - Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ

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Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ

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Topic: Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ

Posted By: semar
Subject: Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ
Date Posted: 12 February 2009 at 11:07am

Where Islam and Christianity Agree and Differ on Jesus

Wilson: The whole issue of Islamic monotheism, by your explanation, has become clear. The Islamic teaching concerning Jesus also has been made clear. Now I would like a summary of the points on which Islam and Christianity agree in regard to Jesus.

Chirri: Islam agrees with Christianity, in general, on the following points:

1. Islam advocates the holiness of Jesus. As a matter of fact, it is an essential part of the Islamic teaching to revere Jesus and to believe in his holiness, and that he lived in this world as a pure person free of any sin. From the Holy Qur'an:

"When the angels said: 'O Mary! Surely God gives thee good news of a word from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, Son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter, and of those who are highly accepted by God.' " http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - 3:45

2. Islam declares the holiness of Mary, the mother of Jesus. No Muslim can doubt the decency and purity of Mary. She, according to the Qur'an, had been the most noble among the women of the nations:

"And when the angels said: 'O Mary! Certainly God has chosen thee and made thee pure and has preferred thee above the women of all nations. 'O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).'" http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.042 - 3:42-43

3. Islam declares that Jesus was miraculously born from a virgin mother with no father. From the Holy Qur'an:

"And mention Mary in the book. When she withdrew to a place east of her family. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared to her as a man in all respects. She said: 'I seek refuge in God against you if you are righteous.' He said: 'I am only a Messenger of Thy Lord to grant to you a pure boy.' She said: 'How can I have a son, and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?' He said: 'So (it will be). Thy Lord says: "It is easy for Me; and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter decreed. Then she conceived him; and withdrew with him to a remote place. And the throes of childbirth drove her to the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: 'Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten. So a voice came to her from beneath her: 'Grieve not, surely thy Lord has provided a stream beneath thee. And shake towards thee the trunk of the palm-tree, it will drop on thee fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be pleased. Then if thou seest any human, say: "Surely I have vowed a fasting for the sake of the Beneficent, so I will not speak to any human today." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.016 - 19:16-26

4. The Qur'an attributes to Jesus many of the miracles which are mentioned in the Gospel. According to the Holy Qur'an, Jesus was empowered by God to cure the sick, revive the dead, and make the blind see:

"... and He (God) will make him (Jesus) a messenger to the children of Israel (saying): 'I have come to you with a sign from your Lord that I fashion for you, out of clay, the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by permission of God. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead by permission of God. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store in your houses. 'Lo! Herein verily is a sign for you, if ye are to be believers.' " http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.049 - 3:49

In addition to this, the Holy Qur'an ascribes to Jesus a miracle that is not recorded in the gospels: Jesus spoke clearly while he was in the cradle:

"Then she came to her people with him, carrying him. They said: 'O Mary, thou hast indeed brought a strange thing. O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother an unchaste woman.' But she pointed to him. They said: 'How should we speak to a one who is a child in the cradle?' He said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet; and He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and purity so long as I live. And to be kind to my mother; and He has not made me insolent, un-blessed. And Peace be on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised to life (in the Hereafter).' " http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.027 - 19:27-33

Wilson: The points of agreement, by your explanations, have become clear. I know that the followers of various religions have differed on the issue of Jesus Christ. Some of them can be considered anti-Jesus because they deny his holiness and the holiness of his mother, disbelieve in his miracles and reject his truth; some of them are neutral, neither for nor anti-Jesus; and some of them are pro-Jesus, believing in his holiness and accepting all his teachings and believing in his miracles.

According to your explanation, Muslims ought to be considered pro-Jesus, as well as the Christians themselves. What remains now is to see the points in which the Muslims and the Christians disagree concerning Jesus.

Chirri: The area of disagreement between Islam and Christianity, concerning Jesus, includes the following points:

1. Although Islam accepts the holiness of Jesus, it denies his divinity. According to the teaching of Islam, Jesus is no deity. He is not God, nor is he united with God. He is worthy of reverence and great respect, but he is not worthy of worship. Islam is uncompromising in its Monotheism. God is only One, and there is no God but He, the Almighty, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent, the Infinite in life, knowledge, and power. Jesus is not ever-living. He was born less than 2000 years ago, and according to the gospels, he died after a very short life. He is not almighty because he was a subject of persecution; nor was he infinite. He could not be the Creator of the world because the world is over four billion years old, while he was born less than two thousand years ago. He is not worthy of worship because he himself was a humble worshipper of God.

2. Jesus, according to the teaching of Islam, is not a son of God. God does not have any son or child, because He is above that. Bodily parenthood is inconceivable in His case because He is not physical. Spiritual parenthood also is not conceivable, because He is the Creator of every spiritual and material being. The Holy Qur'an is clear on this point:

"And (they) impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. Glorified be He and high exalted above (all) that they ascribe (unto Him). The Originator of the heavens and the Earth! How can He have a child when there is no consort for Him, when He created all things and is Aware of all things? Such is God, your Lord. There is no God save Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He taketh care of all things." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.100 - 6:100-102

3. Islam denies the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus did not die on the cross. The Holy Qur'an is clear on this point.

"And because of their saying: 'We slew the Messiah Jesus Son of Mary, the Messenger of God.' They slew him not nor crucified him, but appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof but the pursuit of a conjecture; for certain they slew him not, but God took him up to Himself. God is Ever-Mighty, Wise." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.157 - 4:157-158

Wilson: This view is in a sharp contrast with the statements of all the gospels. The four gospels clearly state that Jesus died on the cross. How can we reconcile this with the statement of the Qur'an which denies emphatically the death of Jesus on the cross?

Chirri: There is a way to reconcile the Qur'anic statement with the statements of the gospels: The difference between the two statements could be a difference between appearance and reality. No doubt, some event had taken place at the time of what seemed to be the crucifixion of Jesus and his death on the cross. The life of Jesus was full of miracles, and so could be what seemed to be his death. It could have been that another person (such as Judas, the one who betrayed him) was miraculously likened to him, and he, not Jesus, died on the cross.

There is another way to reconcile the two statements without resort to assumption of any miracle: Suppose Jesus was put on the cross, and that he had fainted, so he appeared dead, while he was still alive.

This assumption is not without evidence from the gospels: The gospels state that Jesus did not stay very long on the cross. He was taken down hurriedly, without breaking his legs, while it was the custom to break the legs of the crucified. The Jews were preparing to celebrate Passover. They did not want him to stay on the cross until the next day, Saturday, on which they are not supposed to do any work such as burial. As Jesus did not stay too long on the cross, he could have remained alive.

The gospels state also that after Jesus appeared to be dead, a man struck at his body with a lance, and that the blood gushed out from his body. We know that blood does not flow from a dead body. This indicates that Jesus was still alive.

The gospels state that Jesus was laid in his tomb, and that a heavy stone was laid above the tomb, and that on Sunday, the body was missing, and that the stone was removed from the mouth of the tomb. We have the right to suspect that some of the disciples of Jesus removed the stone and rescued him. Were Jesus resurrected miraculously, there would have been no need for removal of the stone. God is able to raise him from the grave and keep the stone where it was. The removal of the stone seems to be a human, and not a Divine, work.

In addition to this, the gospels state that Jesus appeared several times to his disciples after the event of crucifixion. All these appearances seemed to have taken place in secrecy, and that Jesus was not willing to appear openly. Were he miraculously resurrected, he would not have had to hide from his enemies. The secrecy of his appearances indicates that he was still living as he did before, and that his life was not interrupted by a short death, and that he was still afraid of the pursuit of his enemies.

The international society of the Holy Shroud has recently concluded that the stains of blood on the shroud of Jesus indicate that Jesus was still living when he was taken down from the cross. Otherwise, there would be no blood on the sheet which covered his body afterwards.

A Christian, believing in the crucifixion of Jesus, would have a hard time reconciling two of the principles in which he believes, namely: Jesus is God, and Jesus was crucified. A crucified person cannot be God because he is unable to protect himself, let alone be almighty.

A Muslim, on the other hand, does not have such a problem. He believes that Jesus is a prophet and no more. A prophet may be persecuted and crucified, because a prophet is not supposed to be almighty. Although Islam does not have the problem of contradiction, it has solved the problem which it does not have. Jesus was not crucified. God had protected him.

4. Islam disagrees with Christianity on the Doctrine of Redemption. The Doctrine of Redemption is based on the Doctrine of the Original Sin: that mankind had been condemned by God because of the sin of Adam and Eve which was consequently inherited by their children. Islam denies the whole Doctrine of the Original Sin; God did not condemn mankind because a sin was committed by a couple at the beginning of time. (This will be made clear in the following inquiry.) There is no original sin; therefore, there is no need for redemption to mankind out of a sin that did not exist.

Furthermore, suppose that there is an original sin. To forgive mankind their original sin, God does not need a sinless person, such as Jesus, to be crucified. He can forgive the human race without causing an innocent person to suffer. To say that God does not forgive mankind unless mankind crucifies Jesus, is to put Him in the position of a ruler who was disobeyed by his own subjects. When the children asked the ruler to forgive the sin of their fathers, he refused to do so unless they kill one of his beloved ones. If they commit such a terrible crime, he will forgive them; otherwise, he will not. I do not think that the advocates of the original sin would be willing to put God in such a position. God, the Most Just and Merciful, does not condemn people because of their ancestor's sin. He may forgive them their own sins without requiring them to commit a bigger one.

Source: http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/7.html - http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/7.html

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Salam/Peace,

Semar

"We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH)

"1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"

Replies:

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 5:49pm

Both the Bible and Quran agree that Jesus is:

Kalimatuhu: God's Word (Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

Ruhunminhu: Spirit proceeding from Him (Al Nesa http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.171 - )

Al-Masih: The Messiah (Al -Nesa 4.157, 171 )

Rahma: Mercy from God to mankind (Maryam 19:21)

Zakiyyan: Gift of a holy or sinless son (Maryam 19:19)

Salam: Peace on him (Maryam 19:33 )

Mina al-Saliheen: Upright or righteous shall he be

Nabiyy: Prophet (Al-Ankaboot http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/029.qmt.html#029.030 - Rasul: Envoy, messenger (Al - Nesa http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.157 - - 5:75 )

Ibn Maryam : son of Mary , Jesus son of Mary (Ali-Imran 3:45)

Min al-muqareeab: Those who are close to God ( Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

Wadjih: worthy of esteem in this world and the next (Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 -

Mubarak: Blessed ,a source of benefit for others ( Maryam http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.031 - )

Qawl al-haqq: Sure word ( Maryam http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.034 -

Abd Allah: Servant of God (Maryam 19.30)

Aya: A sign unto mankind (Maryam 19:21 ;3:50 ;43:61)

Shahid: A witness on Judgement day ( Al-Nesa 4:159)

Mathal: A Parable or example (Al-Zukhruf 43:57)

IIm: Knowledge of the hour (Al-Zukhruf 43:61)

Hikmah: Bearer of wisdom ( Al-Zukhruf 43:63)

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 6:13pm

peace to you my friend

thank you for sharing. your post has proven most helpfull in helping me explain to others on this subject. also it's been a most popular e-mail item of mine lately.

love

leland

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love for all conquers all

Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 24 February 2009 at 9:17am

Salam Believer

Kalimatuhu: God's Word (Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

I have a small disagreement. Kalimatuhu means word from Him (i.e God), not Word from God. The capitalization you used for word implies that the word here is God, which is untrue according to Islam. Jesus was God's word, not God's Word.

Ruhunminhu: Spirit proceeding from Him (Al Nesa http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.171 - )

Al-Masih: The Messiah (Al -Nesa 4.157, 171 )

Completely agree here. Also I would also quote the reference you gave which clears up the fact that Jesus was not the son of God.

004.171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Al-Qur'an, 004.171 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Rahma: Mercy from God to mankind (Maryam 19:21)

All prophets were mercy from God, including Jesus

Zakiyyan: Gift of a holy or sinless son (Maryam 19:19)

Actually Zakiyyan only means holy or pure. "Ghulaman Zakiyyan" is holy son. But whose son is it? Let's read the reference you gave

019.016 وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انْتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا
019.016 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

019.017 فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِنْ دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا
019.017 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

019.018 قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَنِ مِنْكَ إِنْ كُنْتَ تَقِيًّا
019.018 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

019.019 قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لأهَبَ لَكِ غُلامًا زَكِيًّا
019.019 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

Al-Qur'an, 019.016-019 (Maryam [Mary])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

So in the context, the angel is telling Mary that you will have a pure son. The son here is for Mary, not for God.

Salam: Peace on him (Maryam 19:33 )

Mina al-Saliheen: Upright or righteous shall he be

Nabiyy: Prophet (Al-Ankaboot http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/029.qmt.html#029.030 - )

Rasul: Envoy, messenger (Al - Nesa http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.157 - - 5:75 )

Ibn Maryam : son of Mary , Jesus son of Mary (Ali-Imran 3:45)

Min al-muqareeab: Those who are close to God ( Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

Wadjih: worthy of esteem in this world and the next (Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

Mubarak: Blessed ,a source of benefit for others ( Maryam http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.031 - )

Qawl al-haqq: Sure word ( Maryam http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.034 -

Abd Allah: Servant of God (Maryam 19.30)

Aya: A sign unto mankind (Maryam 19:21 ;3:50 ;43:61)

Shahid: A witness on Judgement day ( Al-Nesa 4:159)

Mathal: A Parable or example (Al-Zukhruf 43:57)

I agree with all this. Though the reference 29:30 you gave is incorrect.

IIm: Knowledge of the hour (Al-Zukhruf 43:61)

Ilm literally means knowledge, but in the context, �Ilm usaat� means sign of the hour (i.e the day of judgement), meaning Jesus is the sign of the day of judgement.

043.061 وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِلسَّاعَةِ فَلا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُسْتَقِيمٌ

043.061 And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

Al-Qur'an, 043.061 (Az-Zukhruf [Ornaments of Gold, Luxury])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Peace

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 27 February 2009 at 7:17am

I have been told that there is no use of capitalization in the Quran, is that correct?

Would you agree that 4:171 doesn't say Trinity, but three and implies 3 gods.

4:171

Literal:

You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector

Did any other messenger in the Quran have GOD's soul or word thrown away to them?

Do you know why some translaters add "only a messenger"or "no more than" when it says GOD's messenger?

Please list verses mentioning other messangers bringing mercies. Thanks.

LOL!! Thanks for the correction on 29:30! If you look at the literal translation ther is no mention of sign of the hour:

43:61

Literal:

And that he/it truly is knowledge to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue with it, and follow Me, that straight/direct road/way.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 28 February 2009 at 3:42am

Salam believer

I have been told that there is no use of capitalization in the Quran, is that correct?

Yes

Would you agree that 4:171 doesn't say Trinity, but three and implies 3 gods.

The word trinity has been derived from the word trinitas in latin which literally means three. Similarly in arabic Salasa, though literally means three, it metaphorically means trinity. That is pretty much understood. Ask any arab Christian that is Salasa an appropriate translation for trinity and he will agree. Now how does this verse start

O People of the book!

Meaning Jews and Christians. So when God says don't say three, it means that whatever concept of three Christians have regarding God being in three parts, components, person etc, it is wrong. If Christians say that there are three gods, then that is also wrong. It doesn't imply three gods only, it implies three. Whatever concept of three there is in Christianity, it is incorrect according to Islam because God is speaking to Christians here.

Did any other messenger in the Quran have GOD's soul or word thrown away to them?

The answer is Adam. As the Quran says

إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (3:59)

3:59 (Asad) Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is. Asad(3,47)

إِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي خَالِقٌ بَشَرًا مِن طِينٍ ﴿٧١﴾

71:

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:

فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ ﴿٧٢﴾

72:

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

فَسَجَدَ الْمَلَائِكَةُ كُلُّهُمْ أَجْمَعُونَ ﴿٧٣﴾

73:

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:

By the way, it doesn't say that He gave His spirit, it says that He gave Mary a spirit from Himself. We all have spirits/souls from God. And regarding this, Molana Maududi in his explanation says

213. Here Jesus himself is called 'a spirit from God'. The same idea is also expressed elsewhere in the Qur'an: 'And We supported him with the spirit of holiness' (Surah al-Baqarah 2: 87). The import of both verses is that God endowed Jesus with a pure, impeccable soul. He was therefore an embodiment of truth, veracity, righteousness, and excellence. This is what the Christians had been told about Christ. But they exceeded the proper limits of veneration for Jesus. The 'spirit from God' became the 'spirit of God', and the 'spirit of holiness' was interpreted to mean God's own Spirit which became incarnate in Jesus. Thus, along with God and Jesus, there developed the third person of God - the Holy Ghost. It was this unjustified exaggeration which led the Christians to even greater error. Ironically, however, Matthew contains the statement that: 'But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.' (The Bible, Authorized version, p. 771.) http://www.tafheem.net - (www.tafheem.net )

Do you know why some translaters add "only a messenger"or "no more than" when it says GOD's messenger?

In the scriptures of Islam, Jesus is no more than a messanger. Although this particular verse does not contain the word "Illa"(i.e no more than) it is used in other places. Quran 43:59

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ مَثَلًا لِّبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ ﴿٥٩﴾

59:

He (Jesus)was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.

Hence to make things unambiguous some translators add "no more than".

Please list verses mentioning other messangers bringing mercies. Thanks.

No prob.

�And We (God) have not sent you (Muhammad) except as a mercy for mankind.�Qur�an 21:107

If you look at the literal translation ther is no mention of sign of the hour:

43:61

Literal:

And that he/it truly is knowledge to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue with it, and follow Me, that straight/direct road/way.

You cannot take everything literal especially in the case of arabic. And you gave the incorrect literal translation. The correct one is : He is knowledge of the moment. Why have you translated Sa'aa as resurrection/Time of resurrection when it literally means moment. Now since literal translation does not make sense, the true translation is

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. (Yousaf Ali)

Here is the explanation given by Moududi (tafheem.net)

*55 Another translation of this sentence can be: "He is a means of the knowledge of Resurrection." Here the question arises: What is implied by "he�? According to Hadrat Hasan Basri and Said bin Jubair it implies the Quran. That is, one can learn from the Qur'an that Resurrection will come. But this commentary is irrelevant to the context. There is nothing in the context on the basis of which it may be said that it refers to the Qur'an. Other commentators almost unanimous]y have expressed the opinion that it implies the prophet Jesus Christ, and this is suitable to the context. Now the question is: In what sense has Jesus Christ been called a Sign or a means of the knowledge of Resurrection? Ibn 'Abbas, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, Suddi, Dahhak, Abul `Aliyah and Abu Malik say that this refers to the second coming of the Prophet Jesus as has been foretold in a large number of the Traditions, and the verse means that when he comes the second time to the world, it wilt become known that Resurrection is not far behind. But in spite of the great authority that these scholars hold it is difficult to believe that in this verse the second advent of the Prophet Jesus has been called a Sign of Resurrection, or a means of its knowledge. For it is contradicted by the next verse. His second advent, indeed, can be a means of the knowledge of Resurrection only for those people who will be living in that future period or will be born after that. How could he be regarded as a means of the knowledge for the pagans of Makkah, who are being asked "not to have any doubt about it"? Therefore, the correct interpretation in our opinion is the one that has been given by some other commentators, according to which the Prophet Jesus' birth without a father and his making a bird out of clay and his raising the dead back to life has been presented as a proof of the possibility of Resurrection. So, the Divine Words would mean: why do you think it is impossible for God to raise you and alI mankind from death when He can create a child without a father and a servant of His can breathe life into an image of clay and raise the dead back to life?"

Peace

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 March 2009 at 1:00pm

OK so in arabic we really don't know if it is GOD's WORD or GOD's word, but we do know that no other on the face of earth had it thrown away to them.

Same with GOD's soul, none other had it literally thrown away to them:

15:29

Literal:So when/if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Sprit , so fall/land/come to him prostrating.

32:9

Literal:Then He straightened Him, and He blew in Him from His Soul/Spirit , and He made/put for you the hearing/listening, and the eye sights/knowledge, and the hearts , little (is) what you thank/be grateful.

38:72

Literal:So if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Spirit , so fall/come to him prostrating.

Mary's son, GOD"S SON that wasn't my point, but the fact that Jesus was pure and no other "man" has ever been.

Now John the Baptist did have the tool of purification in baptism, but he was not pure:

19:13

Literal:

And compassion/kindness from at Us, and purification/correction and he was fearing and obeying.

I am using the literal translations from: http://www.yaqb.org/ - http://www.yaqb.org/

yes you are correct it is

43:61

Literal:

And that he/it truly is knowledge (E) to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue (E) with it, and follow Me, that (is a) straight/direct road/way.

So even with the literal they have added:

E) to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue (E)

Are there any literal with nothing added translations out there?

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 March 2009 at 1:03pm

Ali - in verse 3:55 are the words I am, I am really used twice?

Literal:

When God said: "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing .

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 06 March 2009 at 2:35pm

I always like to find the things both Islam and Christianity have in common - rather than exploit the differences.

For example, both Muslims & Christians have a firm common bind in:

Angel Jibril (Gabriel) [2;97-98]
Virgin birth of Isa (Jesus) [21;91]
Old & New Testament Prophets [4;163] [ 38;45]
Messiahship of Isa (Jesus) [3;45] [4;157] . . . . .
Belief in the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Many end-times prophecies

But Number 4 seems to be the best place to begin taking stock.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 March 2009 at 5:39am

Anyone know - verse 3:55 are the words I am, I am really used twice?

Literal:

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 10:54am

�Behold! The Angels said: O Mary! God giveth thee tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter And of (the company of) those nearest to God�.

(Imran 3:45)

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 6:03pm

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam Believer

Kalimatuhu: God's Word (Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

Ruhunminhu: Spirit proceeding from Him (Al Nesa http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.171 - )

Al-Masih: The Messiah (Al -Nesa 4.157, 171 )

Completely agree here. Also I would also quote the reference you gave which clears up the fact that Jesus was not the son of God.

Al-Qur'an, 004.171 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Rahma: Mercy from God to mankind (Maryam 19:21)

All prophets were mercy from God, including Jesus

Zakiyyan: Gift of a holy or sinless son (Maryam 19:19)

Actually Zakiyyan only means holy or pure. "Ghulaman Zakiyyan" is holy son. But whose son is it? Let's read the reference you gave

Al-Qur'an, 019.016-019 (Maryam [Mary])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

So in the context, the angel is telling Mary that you will have a pure son. The son here is for Mary, not for God.

Salam: Peace on him (Maryam 19:33 )

Mina al-Saliheen: Upright or righteous shall he be

Nabiyy: Prophet (Al-Ankaboot http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/029.qmt.html#029.030 - )

Rasul: Envoy, messenger (Al - Nesa http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.157 - - 5:75 )

Ibn Maryam : son of Mary , Jesus son of Mary (Ali-Imran 3:45)

Min al-muqareeab: Those who are close to God ( Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

Wadjih: worthy of esteem in this world and the next (Ali Imran http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045 - )

Mubarak: Blessed ,a source of benefit for others ( Maryam http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.031 - )

Qawl al-haqq: Sure word ( Maryam http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/019.qmt.html#019.034 -

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:10am

Salam believer

Sorry for the delay. I was a bit busy.

OK so in arabic we really don't know if it is GOD's WORD or GOD's word, but we do know that no other on the face of earth had it thrown away to them.

Same with GOD's soul, none other had it literally thrown away to them:

15:29

Literal:So when/if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Sprit , so fall/land/come to him prostrating.

32:9

38:72

Literal:So if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Spirit , so fall/come to him prostrating.

So you say Jesus' soul was thrown away from God. God blew His soul into Adam. Hence Jesus is more pure. That is a bit ridiculous. If you read carefully, 4:171 does not say God threw His soul. It says God threw a soul. And with Adam, it is specifically mentioned that God blew His soul into Adam. Surely Adam is a better candidate for God's son. Furthermore, there is only one translation which mentions the "throwing", other translations do not even mention it. They just say that Jesus was given a soul/spirit from God. While reading Quran, you should consult many translations, don't just stick with one.

In reality, whether His soul or a soul, God does not have a son and we Muslims do not argue about which prophet is better.

Mary's son, GOD"S SON that wasn't my point, but the fact that Jesus was pure and no other "man" has ever been.

Now John the Baptist did have the tool of purification in baptism, but he was not pure:

According to Quran, Jesus was pure along with many other prophets

002.130 وَمَنْ يَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِلا مَنْ سَفِهَ نَفْسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنَاهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَإِنَّهُ فِي الآخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ
002.130 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

Al-Qur'an, 002.130 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

003.038 هُنَالِكَ دَعَا زَكَرِيَّا رَبَّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِنْ لَدُنْكَ ذُرِّيَّةً طَيِّبَةً إِنَّكَ سَمِيعُ الدُّعَاءِ
003.038 There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

Al-Qur'an, 003.038 (Aal-E-Imran [The Family of Imran])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Zakariya is the father of John the Baptist who is actually referred to as pure.

yes you are correct it is

43:61

Literal:

And that he/it truly is knowledge (E) to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue (E) with it, and follow Me, that (is a) straight/direct road/way.

So even with the literal they have added:

E) to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue (E)

Are there any literal with nothing added translations out there?

The arabic word used is Saa' literally meaning moment/hour. The moment you add "time of resurrection", it no longer remains literal. The translator probably added time of Resurrection for clarification. But my original point was, you cannot take everything literal especially in the case of arabic. The literal translation you gave was that:He (Jesus) is knowledge. Does that make any sense? Shouldn't Jesus be man (according to us) or god (according to you). Hence the literal translation "He is knowledge" does not make sense in English. To demonstrate this verse, the translators translate

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour

He is a means of the knowledge of Resurrection

Ali - in verse 3:55 are the words I am, I am really used twice?

Literal:

The arabic and transliteration is
003.055 إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ
003.055 I[th] q[a]la All[a]hu y[a] AAees[a] innee mutawaffeeka war[a]fiAAuka ilayya wamu[t]ahhiruka mina alla[th]eena kafaroo waj[a]AAilu alla[th]eena ittabaAAooka fawqa alla[th]eena kafaroo il[a] yawmi alqiy[a]mati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faa[h]kumu baynakum feem[a] kuntum feehi takhtalifoon(a)

Al-Qur'an, 003.055 (Aal-E-Imran [The Family of Imran])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

The word INNEE translated has been translated "I am" in the literal one you gave and it is translated as "I will" in many other translations. As you can see from the arabic/transliteration, it is only used once.

Peace

Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:28am

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

A messiah does not mean a person who is sinless. It only means a deliverer. And like I said, all prophets including Jesus Christ did not knowingly commit sins. And for a second coming, you don't have to be a god. You can be a prophet and come back if God wills. And he will come back to defeat Dajjal (antiChrist) and to correct the Christians. As the Bible says

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 11:21am

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

You tell me prophets never sinned get your facts together and so any prophet can be a messiah.

Why then have dajjal got his own heaven and own hell if God is the only one who have a heaven and a hell he is only one who got the power to through someone in to hell.

The deity of Christ is the real stumbling block for many in accepting Christianity as true. It is here that Jews, Moslems, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others come to grief. It is from misbelief or at least inadequate belief about the incarnation that difficulties at other points of the gospel story usually spring.

Following Christ is more than just following in the footsteps of a great man. To be a Christian means accepting the absolute uniqueness of His person. Jesus is different from any other person who has ever lived.

What do we know about the present activities of Christ? First we know that all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Christ (Matt 28:18). This means that Jesus is the active sustainer of the universe. You can thank Him that everything doesn't just fly into bits. As the active force in creation, He willed the universe into existence. Now the force of His will keeps the natural laws which we call physics, chemistry, and biology etc in effect.

         Secondly, Jesus is the head of His Church (Eph 1:22, Col 1:18). The Church is the body of Christ because all saved persons are saved into Christ. In John 16:13 we are told that the Spirit teaches what He hears. The Spirit is present in heaven before Christ to hear the many things Christ has yet to tell us (John 16:12-15). Christ has the powe to take us the many and form us into one body of many members, the Church.

         Thirdly, Jesus is the giver of Spiritual gifts through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Christ has both called and equipped us for the service of the Church and worship of Him. While some gifts are universal in nature some are given only to certain people (Rom 12:3-8,
I Cor 12:4-11). Christ has a plan for each one of us according to His purpose (Phil 2:13, Eph 2:10, Jn 10:10). We should not reject what God has given us the ability to do. We need to recognize that often the reasons for the way He has equipped us us not apparent to us.

         Fourthly, Jesus intercedes for us, this He began to do before He left earth (John 17:1-26) This means that Jesus is praying for you now, today. Because He is all powerful He is able to turn His attention to all of us individually. He will continue this ministry as long as any of His people are on earth (John 17:20). This present ministry of Christ was given to us in the twenty-third Psalm by David. It is because He continually has us in His mind, that our salvation is secure if we are born again to Christ.

         Fifthly, Jesus is our advocate before the judgment throne of God. If it were not for the advocacy of Christ in heaven our sins as Christians would destroy the fellowship we have with God. What is necessary on our part is to be sorry for and confess our sin to Him (1 John 1:9). Jesus pleads our cause before God, and the sufficiency of His death to pay for the penalty that is rightfully ours.

         Sixthly, Christ is building. He has gone ahead of us into heaven and is preparing a place for us to reside (John 14:1-3). Jesus has taken personal interest in our future abode!

         Seventhly, Jesus is expecting to return for us. He is preparing to return at a time known only the Father (Mark 13:32). We do not know when this time will occur, but there will be enough time to gather the harvest.

All authourity on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone elses authority.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:09pm

This means that Jesus is the active sustainer of the universe. You can thank Him that everything doesn't just fly into bits. As the active force in creation, He willed the universe into existence.

He could not even rescue himself from being tied up on the cross, how can you say that he willed the universe in existence?

His death is so pitiful, how could you associate him with Majesty that only belongs to Allah The Creator of the whole universe?

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 1:06pm

2:130

And who shuns/turns away from Abraham's religion/faith except who made himself ignorant/foolish ?And We had chosen/purified him in the present world, and that he is in the end (other life) from (E) the correct/righteous.

Nur - that is where your thinking is wrong- Jesus did not want to save Himself. He knew what the plan was. Jesus' Kingdom is not here on earth.

Many Muslims have been told that Jesus did not complete His mission one earth Please read:

John 16

¹⁶"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

¹⁷Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" ¹⁸They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying."

¹⁹Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'? ²⁰I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy.

John 17

¹After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. ²For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. ³Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. ⁴I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. ⁵And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 2:10pm

"All authourity on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone elses authority."

According to the Bible all authority has not been given to Jesus:

Matthew 24: ³⁵"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

³⁶"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 6:07pm

peace to you and gods blessings!

here's a cool vid. to help out on why it took some 600 yrs. for muhammad to come.

title " WHY DID GOD WAIT SO LONG?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmKZb7I8hg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmKZb7I8hg

also here's a good book on the true history of christanity

BEYOND BELIEF by ELAIN PAGELS

ALSO

READ THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS by STEVEN DAVIES

READ THE GOSPEL OF PHILLP

READ THE GOSPEL OF THE HOLY TWELVE.

as you will find in islam we love QUESTIONS!

muslims will rarely ever{ i've never experenced it } tell you not to read this or do not watch that as most christain leaders direct thier " flock " to do.

and yes i was a active christain all my life.

my mother was a decon in the amrican baptist church.

and my father is curently a decon at the church.

i know what i was taught about islam in the church. the samethings you were taught. lies!

when you can look at the bible with the same standards as the church implores towards others then you may begin to see.

love

leland

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love for all conquers all

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 6:35pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

You tell me prophets never sinned get your facts together and so any prophet can be a messiah.

Why then have dajjal got his own heaven and own hell if God is the only one who have a heaven and a hell he is only one who got the power to through someone in to hell.

All authourity on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone elses authority.

Jouberar,

welcome to this Islamic website, a source for guidance for you and for all who seek it in truth. I can guarentee you that you will not only learn more about Islam but you will also discover the truth about your own belief that you have overlooked so far.

Most of what you wrote has already been discussed and answered in detail in various posts on various threads.

It is useless to agrue about others, if they sinned or not when we ourselves deny the sins we do on a regular basis and think no one has seen them, just a bit disbelief on our own part. As a Muslim we acknowledge that its only ourself that we will answer for when accountablity/ the Day of Judgement comes. As you don't believe so far on accountablity 'cause you belief Jesus has paid for your sins, you may not observe the same standards when it comes to truth vs falsehood.

There is no doubt for a true believer who submits to God alone, that:

God is One God.

God is not a male nor a female, not limited to a body form.

Everything and everyone other than God is His creation, none can become equal to God nor over power God.

God is not born, nor God dies.

God does not have sons, daughters, mother or a father, nor a wife nor a husband.

God does not have any needs nor wants.

God does not get tired, nor God grieves.

For God, nothing is difficult, nor anything out of God's reach, nor things go out of God's control.

God knows All, even the deepest secrects of the hearts.

God grants Power to whom God wills.

God does not incarnate into other forms, nor God take shape of one of His creatures whether be a human, an elephant, a monkey, a tree or so on.

God is Merciful and Forgiving, God Loves those who Obey and seek God's pleasure. For them God has said to have prepared Forgiveness for their mistakes and a reward beyond measure.

Now to answer to some of what you wrote, as I said most of it has already been discussed but I will briefly address some of what you wrote. You may have a good intention when writing them but you need to know truth about them, and not just repeating what you've heard from others.

You wrote: First we know that all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Christ (Matt 28:18).

Now that raises at leat two issues for me, 1- if you note the word "given" is the key. Given by who, of course who else can give, God Almighty. So there is a clear distinction between who can give or grant.

Now 2-"all authority" that seems a bit exaguration since we see verse in the Bible that show how much authority he was given for example when he said, "John 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." Jesus according to this verse seeks pleasure of one who sent him, just like I as a Muslim do, seek pleasure of my maker, all of God's prophets were sent for this purpose to practice and teach to seek the pleasure of their maker.

Then further you wrote:

"Fourthly, Jesus intercedes for us, this He began to do before He left earth (John 17:1-26) This means that Jesus is praying for you now, today. Because He is all powerful He is able to turn His attention to all of us individually. He will continue this ministry as long as any of His people are on earth (John 17:20). "

You missed one point that is more common than that: "Jesus died for your sins" a line I hear more often from preachers. They quote John 2:1-2 "... he himself (Jesus) is the propitaion for our sins, and not for our sins only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

Now contradictory to the above quote there are those i.e. Matthew 12:36-37 ³⁶But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. ³⁷For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Now to close I may add this verse from your trusted source that shows that to whom you call God, indead was a servant of God and shared the same and Only God as a Muslim I worship and serve to as well:

John 20:17 "'........I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

John 14:28 " ........the Father is greater than I"

And here is the confirmed truth:

The Quran 3:59 "Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is"

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 7:11am

Shasta- good question

Matthew 28

¹⁸Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If you read the Gospels you will notice that Jesus is always humble and never shows His power to make Himself greater then the Father, GOD.

Does all authority of heaven and earth include knowledge of the end of earth? Is there a reason why man should not know the date of the end of the earth?

Notice that authority does not always include knowledge- definition #5 does include it.

1.	the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

2.	a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?

3.	a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.

4.	Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.

5.	an accepted source of information, advice, etc.

6.	a quotation or citation from such a source.

7.	an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.

8.	persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.

9.	a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.

10.	right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.

11.	mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.

12.	a warrant for action; justification.

13.	testimony; witness.

LOL!! honeto- Because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One True GOD none of them can go against each other. GOD's WORD made flesh can not go against GOD's plan.

GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

Muslims are trying to make Jesus a renegade partner to GOD, remember GOD is ONE.

His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 11:42am

believer wrote:

GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

Muslims are trying to make Jesus a renegade partner to GOD, remember GOD is ONE.

If so Jesus was not god, he was a slave of God, he was messenger of God, he was a helper of God. That what Muslim always say. What kind of God, if he didn't have his own will. What kind of God if he just received authority from the higher God. What kind of God if he need approval from the other God. What kind of God if he didn't have absolute authority and absolute will. God should has absolute authority on everything, no need permission, no need approval, no need instruction, no need guideline from other authority.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 2:21pm

believer wrote:

"If you read the Gospels you will notice that Jesus is always humble and never shows His power to make Himself greater then the Father, GOD. "

And that's all we have been trying to tell you, one that humbles (Jesus) to God is not God. You understand it through logic but bound to repeat others words that "he is also God".

Now that you spoke for yourself, you are very clear in your belief, that Jesus humbled himself to God. Now we all know that its only God that does not humble nor serve nor obey to anyone, but Jesus did as you acknowledge, but refuse to proclaim?

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 5:10pm

[QUOTE=believer]

Shasta- good question

Matthew 28

¹⁸Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If you read the Gospels you will notice that Jesus is always humble and never shows His power to make Himself greater then the Father, GOD.

Does all authority of heaven and earth include knowledge of the end of earth? Is there a reason why man should not know the date of the end of the earth?

Notice that authority does not always include knowledge- definition #5 does include it.

1.	the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

2.	a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?

3.	a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.

4.	Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.

5.	an accepted source of information, advice, etc.

6.	a quotation or citation from such a source.

7.	an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.

8.	persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.

9.	a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.

10.

right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.

11.

mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.

12.

a warrant for action; justification.

13.

testimony; witness.

LOL!! honeto- Because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One True GOD none of them can go against each other. GOD's WORD made flesh can not go against GOD's plan.

GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

Muslims are trying to make Jesus a renegade partner to GOD, remember GOD is ONE.

His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him

[/QUOTE]

Believer, do you read what you post? If Jesus and God are one, how can Jesus make himself greater or lesser? How can Jesus make himself humble to God if he is God? Why would that even be necessary?

You ask: GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

I ask, if God is One, why would God have to give Jesus authority to begin with?

It is not a question of whether or not man should have knowledge, it is a question of whether or not God can hide the knowledge of an event from Himself.

Muslims are not trying to make Jesus any type of partner to God, that is shirk, we make no partners with God, period. We are merely pointing out that Jesus, by his own words, was subservient to God, had no power other than what God gave him, deferred to God, and lacked knowledge that only God had.

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 11:50pm

Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone Else's authority."

According to the Bible all authority has not been given to Jesus:

Matthew 24: ³⁵"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

³⁶"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

My words will not pass away.

You have made it quit clear his words will not pass away according to the quran it is God's word passed away it is only lunatics that will think in period of 500 years God's word will pass away but the so called last one can withstand 1500 year without corruption

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 8:40am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

This means that Jesus is the active sustainer of the universe. You can thank Him that everything doesn't just fly into bits. As the active force in creation, He willed the universe into existence.

He could not even rescue himself from being tied up on the cross, how can you say that he willed the universe in existence?

His death is so pitiful, how could you associate him with Majesty that only belongs to Allah The Creator of the whole universe?

Another hypocrite that says the same that like the Jews 2000 years ago if your the son of God why can't you save yourself and you say his death is pitifully Jesus newed what was his mission and his mission is to save world and still is you didn't even have the slightest clue what your mission is then you want judge the holy son of God, you don't even know if you gonna live for 5 minutes or year.

RemeMber you also can't save yourself.

How did Jesus know so much? He knew He was the Son of God; He knew He was the Messiah; He knew what His mission was; He knew the names of people He had never met; He selected eleven disciples without a mistake; He always seemed to be at the right place at the right time; He chose to heal certain individuals in a crowd, such as the paralytic at the pool of Bethesda; He was able to heal at a distance; He seemed to have a foreknowledge of His death, burial, and resurrection. Where did He get all this information and divine powers? Well, some would say that He was born with it, after all, He was God. However, He spent nine months in Mary's womb as any other normal human fetus; He was born as a helpless babe; He was born with a blank memory bank; and He had to learn to eat, to crawl, to walk, to talk, and to reason just as any other infant. But we know that at twelve years of age He knew His mission, so how did He know?

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 3:08pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"All authority on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone Else's authority."

According to the Bible all authority has not been given to Jesus:

Matthew 24: ³⁵"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

³⁶"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

My words will not pass away.

Are you speaking English?

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 10:48pm

honeto wrote:

JOUBERAR wrote:

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

You tell me prophets never sinned get your facts together and so any prophet can be a messiah.

Why then have dajjal got his own heaven and own hell if God is the only one who have a heaven and a hell he is only one who got the power to through someone in to hell.

All authourity on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone elses authority.

Jouberar,

Most of what you wrote has already been discussed and answered in detail in various posts on various threads.

There is no doubt for a true believer who submits to God alone, that:

God is One God.

God is not a male nor a female, not limited to a body form.

Everything and everyone other than God is His creation, none can become equal to God nor over power God.

God is not born, nor God dies.

God does not have sons, daughters, mother or a father, nor a wife nor a husband.

God does not have any needs nor wants.

God does not get tired, nor God grieves.

For God, nothing is difficult, nor anything out of God's reach, nor things go out of God's control.

God knows All, even the deepest secrects of the hearts.

God grants Power to whom God wills.

God does not incarnate into other forms, nor God take shape of one of His creatures whether be a human, an elephant, a monkey, a tree or so on.

God is Merciful and Forgiving, God Loves those who Obey and seek God's pleasure. For them God has said to have prepared Forgiveness for their mistakes and a reward beyond measure.

You wrote: First we know that all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Christ (Matt 28:18).

Then further you wrote:

John 20:17 "'........I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

John 14:28 " ........the Father is greater than I"

And here is the confirmed truth:

The Quran 3:59 "Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is"

Hasan

What you want tell me it is not possible for God to have a son or take up a human form do you think it will be a disgrace for God to have son.

You believe in things simply because you are born as a muslim and you are force to believe in the quran.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 5:15pm

Human bodies are mortal.

GOD"S soul that He threw away to Mary to become Jesus, GOD's WORD incarnate did not die. Remember your Quran says so. His soul went to prison/Hell to speak to the spirits there.

Muslims limit Allah's abilities.

Funny thing because their Quran does not!

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 22 March 2009 at 12:19am

believer wrote:

Human bodies are mortal.

GOD"S soul that He threw away to Mary to become Jesus, GOD's WORD incarnate did not die. Remember your Quran says so. His soul went to prison/Hell to speak to the spirits there.

Muslims limit Allah's abilities.

Funny thing because their Quran does not!

Are you actually reading The Quran? The Quran does not state that God threw His soul away, that God's soul became Jesus, or that Jesus is God's Word incarnate, or that jesus went to Hell to speak to the souls there.

Believer, you have brought all of these inaccuracies up numerous times and they have been refuted numerous times. Why keep it up?

3:45 (Y. Ali) Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

4:171 (Y. Ali) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

3:59 (Y. Ali) The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

5:116 (Y. Ali) And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

19:35 (Y. Ali) It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

Jesus is A WORD from Allah, the Word is BE and it is. Just as Adam and Eve were created, BE, and they were.

You know, there are a number of Christians here who don't believe that Jesus is God. Perhaps you should be preaching to them instead of trying to rewrite The Quran.

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 22 March 2009 at 1:54pm

Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Jesus is A WORD from Allah, the Word is BE and it is. Just as Adam and Eve were created, BE, and they were.

You know, there are a number of Christians here who don't believe that Jesus is God. Perhaps you should be preaching to them instead of trying to rewrite The Quran.

"They do blaspheme who say: God is a third of three: for there is no god except One God........."

No Mary, no Jesus, no Holy Spirit, no http://www.hindunet.org/god/trinity/ - Hindu trinity (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva), and no lies! All forms of trinity or any plurality of GOD Almighty are false and lies! Mary, Jesus and the http://www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm - Holy Spirit are nothing but Honored creations from GOD Almighty with specific duties.

Adam was created in a much more complex Miracle than Jesus. At least Jesus had to be formed as a fetus in a woman's womb. Yes she was virgin when GOD Almighty caused her to get pregnant, but nonetheless, Jesus had to be formed as a fetus in a human womb like you and me.

Adam on the other hand and Eve also were created in a much more complex Miracle. Adam was created vitually out of nothing. This Miracle is far greater than Jesus' birth.

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 22 March 2009 at 3:51pm

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 22 March 2009 at 4:02pm

semar wrote:

What kind of God if he just received authority from the higher God. What kind of God if he need approval from the�other God. What kind of God if he didn't have absolute authority and absolute will.

Answer:he would be a Roman god

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 8:29am

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60570&FID=10 - Mansoor_ali - interesting belittling Jesus' birth. Why did Jesus have to be formed in the womb? Why not create Jesus the way Adam was created?

What kind of GOD can not be omnipresent and manifest to man in more then one way?

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:53am

Akhe Abdullah wrote:

semar wrote:

What kind of God if he just received authority from the higher God. What kind of God if he need approval from the other God. What kind of God if he didn't have absolute authority and absolute will.

Answer:he would be a Roman god

interesting, and poses a new question

did the roman chatholic church turn jesus into a likeness of a roman god?? mmm

and if so did they do it to comprehend him?

or as an evil agent of satan to hide and delute the truth of the message he brought and bring darkness and despair and ignorence where ever they went?

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love for all conquers all

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 1:09pm

As Salamu Alaikum, Nazarene. The idea of logos in Greek thought may be traced back at lest to the 6th century-BC philosopher,Heracleitus, who proposed that there was a logos in the cosmic process analogous to the reasoning power in man. Later,the Stoics defined the llogos as an active, rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality. The Greek-speaking Jewish philosopher, Judaeus Philo of Alexandria(15 BC-45 CE),taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos,being both the agent between God and the cosmos,being both the agent of creation and the agent though which the human mind can comprehend God. The writtings of Philo were preserved and cherished by the Church, and provided the inspiration for a sophisticated Christian philosophical theology.He departed from Platonic thought regarding the logos (Word)and called it 'the first-begotten son of God". The identification of Jesus with the logos,was further developed in the early Church as a result of attempts made by early Christians theologians and apologist to express the Christian in terms that would be intelligible to the Hellenistic world. Moreover, it was to impress their hearers with the view that Christianity was superior to,or heir to,all that was best in pagan philosophy. Thus, in their apologies and polemical works,the early Christian fathers stated that Christ was the preexistent logos. The Greek word for 'God'used in the phrase"and the Word was with God",is the definite form hotheos,meaning'The God'. However,in the second phrase"and the Word was God',the Greek word used for 'God'is the indefinite form tontheos, which means 'a god' Consequently,John 1:1 should more accurately be translated,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,and the Word was a god."Therefore,if the Word was a 'god'in the literal sense,it would mean that there were two Gods and not one.However,in Biblical language,the term'god'is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example,Paul referred to the devil as "god"in 2nd Corithians 4:4,"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,to keep them from seeing the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ,who is the likeness of God."Moses is also referred to as "god" in Exodus 7:1,"And the Lord said unto Moses,'See,I made thee a god to Pharoah;and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."(The True Message Of Jesus Christ BY DR.BILAL PHILIPS)

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 March 2009 at 10:05am

If you check the Peshitta the Gospel in Aramaic the word translated as logos can also mean manifestation.

Flm - the Miltha

1. �Miltha� has no direct English equivalent. It can mean �Word�, �Manifestation�, �Instance� or �Substance�,

among many other things. In this context, it is best left untranslated.

When the scripture was written in greek for the greek churches "Word" was used as the translation.

http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch1.pdf - http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch1.pdf

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 March 2009 at 10:08am

Actually Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus is a lesser god.

here is the original Aramaic:

1. In the beginning was the Miltha¹. And that Miltha was with God. And God was that Miltha. 2. This was with God in the beginning.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 March 2009 at 10:11am

Here is an interlineal greek John:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh1.pdf - http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh1.pdf

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 March 2009 at 10:30am

Those people who emphasize that the true rendering of the last clause of John 1.1 "the word was a god" prove nothing thereby save their ignorance of Greek grammar. (Bruce, The Books and the Parchments [Old Tappan, NJ; Fleming H. Revell Company, 1963], pp. 60-61 note)

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:27pm

Salams, Believer make sense out of this even though it clearly says what it means:John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers:"I ascend unto my Father and your Father;and to my God and your God". Jesus' reference to God as "my Father and your Father"further emphasized the distiction between himself and God.Furthermore,by referring to God as "his God",he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 12:27pm

Akhe- I find it interesting thqt you are using verses right after those speaking of Jesus rising from the tomb after His crucifixion.

John 10

²⁵Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, ²⁶but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. ³⁰I and the Father are one."

I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Did you know that some early Christians- gnostic sects believed that Jesus' body was an illusion and that He was fully divine.

Think of it this way- each of us is "creator", "father" of our own words, but we are human and our words very often lead us into trouble!!

Our loving GOD used His words to make Laws for us so we could be close to Him. GOD is righteous and we can not be close to Him if we don't follow His Laws. GOD gave us a free will because He wants us to choose Him and follow His Laws, but none of us can follow those Laws because we are human.

GOD castes His Holy words to Mary to become a living Human example for us in Jesus. Knowing that we could never live up to the Laws He sacrificed His WORD, SON, Manifestation, for us as a gift of grace.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 1:53pm

But really Believer you get into this 'sacrifice' idea..

Where is Jesus now? Let's assume he is in Heaven... where the 'sacrifice?' This life is really an illusion the next life is the one that is eternal/

So is this idea of 'sacrifice' is a bit odd if you think about it. If I sacrifice my time so that i do X, it is gone forever. I give up something.. how is Jesus a 'sacrifice' when he is where is always was and should be. What did God actually 'give up?'

Are you not giving human attributes to God who is as you would agree beyond we humans.

And I am reading a book on the Bible by Karen Armstrong.. and it SEEMS to me that IF Jesus had been God more information would have been concrete about his life. If you read how things WERE altered.. then how does the concrete mission of Jesus remain true?

I am no way would ever say that Jesus was not a pious follower on God. But reading Anything about what happens after his time, it puts men in charge. Which is really a false reality.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:19pm

Good point Hayfa.

I have stated on numerous threads over and over, where was the sacrifice? If Jesus were God, then he sacrificed nothing. Nothing could really hurt him, he didn't really die, and after his little sojourn to earth he immediately returned to heaven. If Jesus were a man and could actually die with no hope of resurrection or being "god" again, and allowed himself to be killed, actually gave up his one and only life, then THAT would have been a sacrifice.

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:19pm

believer wrote:

Akhe- I find it interesting thqt you are using verses right after those speaking of Jesus rising from the tomb after His crucifixion.

John 10

I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Did you know that some early Christians- gnostic sects believed that Jesus' body was an illusion and that He was fully divine.

Think of it this way- each of us is "creator", "father" of our own words, but we are human and our words very often lead us into trouble!!

Salams, Believer. Is that Jesus(As) like?And furthermore lets look deeper into this sacrifice theory,Why was it a need for this so-called sacrifice?Could it be because the people started to worship Jesus(As)as a god when he clearly, over and over told them not to,he even said dont call him good,because he owned no attributes in which they were giving him,except as a messenger.

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:39pm

believer wrote:

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, ²⁶but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

I wonder if you realize that you are affirming that Jesus had no power except by the Will of Allah.

My sheep meaning that he was a sheperd of men,a learder of men,and so was Adam(As)Nohah(As)Moses(As)Abraham(As)and lastly Muhammed(SAW).

Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 27 March 2009 at 3:05pm

I have always looked at the "sacrifice" or "death" of Jesus (Isa) as, unfortunately, a pagan ritual carried over from many other empires: Greek, Roman, etc. All HAD TO sacrifice a human being.

It's strange, before becoming a Muslim, I always thought the Messiah was exonerated or saved at the last moment by the hand of God - - - something like the rescue of Isaac (Christian) or Ismael (Islam) from the hand of Abraham (Ibrahim).

Jesus suffered persecution....true....but he was not crucified to death but miraculously saved or raised up just in time.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 March 2009 at 12:43pm

Well said Akhe Abdullah and Eaisha, so simple and so true.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 31 March 2009 at 1:08pm

Akhe Abdullah wrote:

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

If the messiah is only a deliverer then why couldn't God just gave the job just to Muhammad and why have Dajjal got his own heaven and his own hell if God is the only one that have got the one and only heaven and he the only one that got the power to through someone in to hell.

This Dajjal story seems to me to like six century Arab caravan camp fire story.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 31 March 2009 at 9:56pm

Eaisha wrote:

I have always looked at the "sacrifice" or "death" of Jesus (Isa) as, unfortunately, a pagan ritual carried over from many other empires: Greek, Roman, etc. All HAD TO sacrifice a human being.

Jesus suffered persecution....true....but he was not crucified to death but miraculously saved or raised up just in time.

Assalamualaikum Eaisha.

In tasawwuf - Purification of Human Souls - or sufism, when one reached the 7th stage of purity of the souls, everything is possible. The Spirit or Souls becomes so strong, that it overcomes the physical body. It kind of seeps thru the physical body and envelopes it thoroughly. Therefore one can make oneself appear and disappear anytime. However these are for human beings who had succeeded in their self jihad like Prophets and waliyullahs. This path is very very difficult but it is not impossible. When one has reached this stage, one will know the secrets of secrets and reality of existence.

That was what happened to Jesus who was called up to Allah and also the Isra' Miraj that happened to our dear beloved Prophet Muhammad Rasulullah.

I would like to relate a story of a sufi in early Islamic years. He was sewing his torn clothes near a river. Then came a man from his village asking him why he chose this path (sufism) when he was a wealthy man. Then his needle dropped into the river. The AhlusSufi called up the needle up, there were a few needles appearing at his command. The Sufi said, I only want my one that dropped earlier. The Sufi then told his villageman, that this was what he wanted, having the secrets of secrets, to be one with the ONE.

Salam....

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 01 April 2009 at 4:31pm

Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Good point Hayfa.

Aunty you said you were a Christian before have you realy then at that time loved God with your whole heart and sole have you really put in a big effort to be a Christian or were your live only a one hour or a two hour a week Christian,then you step over to the Muslims and you practice Islam now full time.

Why did Jesus say all this words then.

I Am the bread of live

http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Light%20of%20the%20World - I Am the Light of the World
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Door - I Am the Door
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Good%20Shepherd - I Am the Good Shepherd
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Resurrection%20and%20the%20Life - I Am the Resurrection and the Life
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Way - I Am the Way
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20am%20the%20Vine - I am the Vine

I Am the Bread of Life http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -

John 6:35 Jesus replied: �I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty

Jesus is God�s answer to man�s death (The Bread of Life).

Jesus is God�s answer to man�s hunger (will never be hungry).

Jesus is God�s answer to man�s thirst (will never be thirsty).

I Am the Light of the World http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -

John 8:12   Once again Jesus spoke to the people. This time he said, "I am the light for the world! Follow me, and you won't be walking in the dark. You will have the light that gives life."

I Am the Door http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, �Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.�

I Am the Good Shepherd http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -

John 10:14   �I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and they know me.�

I Am the Resurrection and the Life http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -

John 11:25   Jesus said unto her, �I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe th in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.�

I Am the Way http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -
John 14:6   Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I am the Vine http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -
John 15:1   "I am the true vine, and my Father is the Gardner."

Why did Jesus said that he is the true vine, He said all this above words why then if it is like he said why will God then send a substitute to demolish all his protocols.

Why haven't Muhammad said any of this.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 02 April 2009 at 12:04am

Originally posted by JOUBERAR<div> </div>
<div>Aunty you said you were a Christian before have you realy then at that time loved God with your whole heart and sole have you really put in a big effort to be a Christian or were your live only a one hour or a two hour a week Christian,then you step over to the Muslims and you practice Islam now full time.</div>
<div> </div>
<div align=center><strong><font size=5>Why did Jesus say all this words then.</font></strong></div>
<div align=center><font size=2><u>I Am the bread of live</u></font></div>
<div align=center><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Light%20of%20the%20World</font> - <font color=#000000</font> - I Am the Light of the World</font> <br> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Door</font> - <font color=#000000</font> - I Am the Door</font> <br> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Good%20Shepherd</font> - <font color=#000000</font> - I Am the Good Shepherd</font> <br> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Resurrection%20and%20the%20Life</font> - <font color=#000000</font> - I Am the Resurrection and the Life</font> <br> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Way</font> - <font color=#000000</font> - I Am the Way</font> <br> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20am%20the%20Vine</font> - <font color=#000000</font> - I am the Vine</font> </font></div>
<div align=center>
<p align=center><u><font face=Verdana><a name=I Am the Bread of Life><strong>I Am the Bread of Life</strong></font></u><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top</font> - <font color=#825c06</font> - </font> </font></p>
<div><font face=Verdana></font><strong><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>John 6:35 </span></strong><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>Jesus replied: �I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty</span></b></div>
<div><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>               Jesus is God�s answer to man�s death (The Bread of Life).</span></span></b></div>
<div><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;> </span><span style=font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-family: Verdana; font-variant: normal;><font size=2>    </font></span><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>Jesus is God�s answer to man�s hunger (will never be hungry).</span></span></b></div>
<div><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>      </span><span style=font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-family: Verdana; font-variant: normal;><font size=2>    </font></span><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>Jesus is God�s answer to man�s thirst (will never be thirsty).</span></span></b></div>
<div><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;></span></span></b> </div>
<div><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>
<p align=center><u><font face=Verdana><a name=I Am the Light of the World><strong>I Am the Light of the World</strong></font></u><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top</font> - <font color=#825c06</font> - </font> </font></p>
<p><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>John 8:12   </span><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>Once again Jesus spoke to the people. This time he said, I am the light for the world! Follow me, and you won't be walking in the dark. You will have the light that gives life.</span></b></p>
<div><b> </b></div>
<div>
<p align=center><b><u><font face=Verdana><a name=I Am the Door><strong>I Am the Door</strong></font></u><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top</font> - <font color=#825c06</font> -   </font> </font></b></p>
<p><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;><b>John 10:7 </b></span><b><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>Then said Jesus unto them again, �Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.�</span></b></b></p>
<div>
<p align=center><b><b><u><font face=Verdana><a name=I Am the Good Shepherd><strong>I Am the Good Shepherd</strong></font></u><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top</font> - <font color=#825c06</font> -   </font> </font></b></b></p>
<p><span><b><b>John 10:14   �I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and they know me.�</b></b></span></p>
<div>
<p align=center><b><b><u><font face=Verdana><a name=I Am the Resurrection and the Life><strong>I Am the Resurrection and the Life</strong></font></u><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top</font> - <font color=#825c06</font> - </font> </font></b></b></p>
<p><b><b><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>John 11:25   Jesus said unto her, �I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe th in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.�</span></b></b></b></p>
<div><b><b><b></b></b></b><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;></span></span></b><b><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;></span></b> <u><strong> I Am the Way</strong><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top</font> - <font color=#825c06</font> -   </font> </font></u>
<p><a name=OLE_1><strong><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>John 14:6   Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.</span></strong></p>
<p align=center><u><font face=Verdana><a name=I am the Vine><strong>I am the Vine</strong></font></u><font face=Verdana> <font color='#0000FF'>http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top</font> - <font color=#825c06</font> -   </font> </font>
</p><p><a name=OLE_1><strong><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>John 15:1   I am the true vine, and my Father is the </span></strong><strong><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>Gardner.</span></strong></p>
<div></div><strong></strong></div>
<div><strong><span style=font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;>Why did Jesus said that he is the true vine, He said all this above words why then if it is like</span></strong> <strong>he said why will God then send a substitute to demolish all his protocols.</strong></div>
<div><strong></strong> </div>
<div><strong>Why haven't Muhammad said any of this.</strong></div></div></div></div></span></span></b></div></div><b>[/QUOTE

JOUBERAR

Aunty you said you were a Christian before have you realy then at that time loved God with your whole heart and sole have you really put in a big effort to be a Christian or were your live only a one hour or a two hour a week Christian,then you step over to the Muslims and you practice Islam now full time.

Why did Jesus say all this words then.

I Am the bread of live

http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Light%20of%20the%20World - - I Am the Light of the World
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Door - - I Am the Door
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Good%20Shepherd - - I Am the Good Shepherd
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Resurrection%20and%20the%20Life - - I Am the Resurrection and the Life
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20Am%20the%20Way - - I Am the Way
http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#I%20am%20the%20Vine - - I am the Vine

I Am the Bread of Life http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top - -

John 6:35 Jesus replied: �I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty

               Jesus is God�s answer to man�s death (The Bread of Life).

    Jesus is God�s answer to man�s hunger (will never be hungry).

          Jesus is God�s answer to man�s thirst (will never be thirsty).

I Am the Light of the World http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top - -

John 8:12   Once again Jesus spoke to the people. This time he said, I am the light for the world! Follow me, and you won't be walking in the dark. You will have the light that gives life.

I Am the Door http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top - -

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, �Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.�

I Am the Good Shepherd http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top - -

John 10:14   �I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and they know me.�

I Am the Resurrection and the Life http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top - -

John 11:25   Jesus said unto her, �I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe th in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.�

I Am the Way http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top - -
John 14:6   Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I am the Vine http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top - -
John 15:1   I am the true vine, and my Father is the Gardner.

Why did Jesus said that he is the true vine, He said all this above words why then if it is like he said why will God then send a substitute to demolish all his protocols.

Why haven't Muhammad said any of this.
[/QUOTE wrote:

How do you know that Jesus Christ said above these things?

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/realbible.html -

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 05 April 2009 at 10:21am

Salams,Where Islam and Christianity agree and differ.Matthew 6: Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them:otherwise ye have no reward of your father which is in heaven.(Gideons)These words I quoted are word for word,not mine and yes they clearly have words missing now granted this could just be the book that I have but still the same not my words.So I had to formulate the meaning to be:Take heed that ye do not (take)or (Pay) your alms before men to be seen of them.We can agree on this.Your father which is in heaven.We differ your meaning of heavenly father.

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 05 April 2009 at 10:29am

As Salamu Alaikum Brother Mansoor Ali.Jazakallah Kheiran for the link [IMG]smileys/smiley32.gif" align="middle" /> May Allah Bless you.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 1:13pm

Suffering beatings, dying a physical death on a cross and spending time preaching to the souls in hell even though you are sinless is a big enough sacrifice for me!

Muslims are putting their own rules of what you believe is a worthy sacrifice from GOD?!

Why the need for a sacrifice- You are driving along and run into another car and damage it. You apologize like crazy and then drive away. The other driver says ok I forgive you, but the car is still damamged. Where is the compensation for the damage?

GOD is holy and righteous and since our sin does damage a payment is needed to compensate.

In Old Testament times a perfect animal was sacrificed. Even Muslims carry out this ritual sacrifice even though they have no idea why, they have forgotten!!

You forget that Jesus willingly gave His life for us.

Since we were all originally muslim and sacrificed since earliest times [remember the story of Abraham] did you ever think that the pagan sacrifices were a carry over from that original time.

In the Quran what was the momentous, tremendous sacrifice from GOD that save Abraham's son? A ram?

mansoor ali - according to your Quran we have the real Gospel!

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 4:52pm

believer wrote:

In Old Testament times a perfect animal was sacrificed.� Even Muslims carry out this ritual sacrifice even though they have no idea why, they have forgotten!!

Whether intended as defamatory or it is just uninformed, the above is just Wrong.

The below wiki-entry is entirely consonant with my understanding every brother that I have personally sacrificed alongside of during the Eid or other times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice

On the occasion of Eid ul Adhaa, affluent Muslims all over the world perform the Sunnah of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) by sacrificing a goat or sheep. The meat is then divided into three equal parts. One part is retained by the person who performs the Qurbani. The second is given to his relatives. The third part is distributed to the poor. The Muslims say that this has nothing to do with blood and gore (Qur'an 22:37: "It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches God. It is your piety that reaches Him..."). The sacrifice is done to help the poor and in remembrance of Prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Ishmael at God's command. The sacrificial animal may be a lamb, a sheep, a goat, a camel or a cow. The animal must be healthy and conscious.

p.s The Lamb of God stuff, when it doesn't evoke puzzlement, usually evokes a bit of unintended comedy in these parts, though my missionary friends still believe it's because they are denied a better stage to proselytise from. Nietzsche, (paradoxically, this atheist philosopher is quite popular in Muslim North West Africa) put it succinctly:

There can be no doubt: first of all against the "debtor," in whom from this point on bad conscience, firmly set in him, eating into him and spreading out like a polyp, grows wide and deep, until finally, with the impossibility of discharging the debt, people think up the idea of the impossibility of removing the penance, the idea that the debt cannot be paid off ("eternal punishment"). Finally however, those ideas of "debt" and "duty" turn back even against the "creditor." ... [A]ll of a sudden we confront the paradoxical and horrifying expedient with which a martyred humanity found temporary relief, that stroke of genius of Christianity - God's sacrifice of himself for the guilt of human beings, God paying himself back with himself, God as the only one who can redeem man from what for human beings has become impossible to redeem - the creditor sacrifices himself for the debtor, out of love (can people believe that?), out of love for his debtor! ... [Genealogy of Morality, Section 21]

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 April 2009 at 5:16pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Good point Hayfa.

Why did Jesus say all this words then.

I Am the bread of live

I Am the Bread of Life http://www.todaysword.org/Iam.htm#Top -

John 6:35 Jesus replied: �I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty

Jesus is God�s answer to man�s death (The Bread of Life).

Jesus is God�s answer to man�s hunger (will never be hungry).

Jesus is God�s answer to man�s thirst (will never be thirsty).

Jouberar,

I see you probably did not read the Quran, otherwise you will know answer to what you wrote. All of God's prophets served the same purpose what you mentioned for Jesus (may God's peace be upon him). God has told humanity in the Quran that those who follow the prophet and the message sent through Him will enter Pradise. Those who will deny, him and the message sent through Him and turn to in worship toward others, or deny God will be the loosers in the End and a great panelty is waiting for them. Abraham taught that, Moses taught the same, David taught the same, and Jesus taught the same.

As far as Jesus being, vine, bread, lamb, sheep or blood, those are human utterances, for which those who utter them will give account. In fact everything a person say apart from what they do and intend, they will give account on the judgement day.

You forgot to mention that Jesus was a servant of God, a prophet of God, and a man of God.

Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 9:36am

"You forget that Jesus willingly gave His life for us."

If Jesus is dead, then who is that alive and sitting at the right hand side of God?

Of course this brings up the question of if Jesus is God then how is he sitting at his right hand, but that's a different thread.

-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 5:41pm

Jamal- "Whether intended as defamatory or it is just uninformed, the above is just Wrong. "

Not intended to be anything other then an observation. The system was set up by GOD very early in man's history. You can read about it in the Torah.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 09 April 2009 at 5:57pm

LOL! Shasta- you didn't pay attention in Sunday School did you.

Jesus' human form died, His soul went to preach to the spirits in prision/hell. Jesus' human form was then resurrected. He appeared to many- remember doubting Thomas?

Acts 1

⁹After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Right hand of GOD means Jesus has the authority to be our judge. He is not literally sitting in a chair next to GOD who is sitting on some throne.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are spirit and everywhere.

What kind of body will we have in heaven? Is it the same one? A spritual body?

1 Corinthians 15

⁴²So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; ⁴³it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; ⁴⁴it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 5:07am

believer wrote:

Why the need for a sacrifice- a payment is needed to compensate.

In Old Testament times a perfect animal was sacrificed. Even Muslims carry out this ritual sacrifice even though they have no idea why, they have forgotten!!

believer wrote:

Jamal- "Whether intended as defamatory or it is just uninformed, the above is just Wrong. "

Not intended to be anything other then an observation. The system was set up by GOD very early in man's history. You can read about it in the Torah.

Then you are mistaken in your observation.
Your observation is skewed.
In a nutshell: Wrong.

The Torah is not considered the whole of Judaism by anyone, also it not the only book which informs Christianity or the only Hebrew text referred back to in Islam.

Within "Prophets"

�To obey is better than sacrifice�. 1 Samuel 15.22

��To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to me?� says the Lord. �I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or goats. � Bring no more futile sacrifices; incense is an abomination to me.�� Isaiah 1.11-12

�For I desire mercy not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.� Hosea 6.6.

A general malaise towards blood sacrifices also evolved over time.

To repeat from the Holy Quran, which nearly echoes the above verses:

(Qur'an 22:37: "It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches God. It is your piety that reaches Him...").

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 5:24am

Yes, absolutely it is better to obey then sacrific!!

Problem is we don't obey so GOD set up the sacrific system for us.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 7:38am

believer wrote:

LOL! Shasta- you didn't pay attention in Sunday School did you.

Jesus' human form died, His soul went to preach to the spirits in prision/hell. Jesus' human form was then resurrected. He appeared to many- remember doubting Thomas?

Acts 1

⁹After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Right hand of GOD means Jesus has the authority to be our judge. He is not literally sitting in a chair next to GOD who is sitting on some throne.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are spirit and everywhere.

What kind of body will we have in heaven? Is it the same one? A spritual body?

1 Corinthians 15

⁴²So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; ⁴³it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; ⁴⁴it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

That doesn't really answer my question. Even you are saying that his physical form was up walking around in three days, so Jesus didn't really DIE, did he?

-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 3:42pm

Shasta'sAunt wrote:

believer wrote:

LOL! Shasta- you didn't pay attention in Sunday School did you.

Jesus' human form died, His soul went to preach to the spirits in prision/hell. Jesus' human form was then resurrected. He appeared to many- remember doubting Thomas?

Acts 1

⁹After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Right hand of GOD means Jesus has the authority to be our judge. He is not literally sitting in a chair next to GOD who is sitting on some throne.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are spirit and everywhere.

What kind of body will we have in heaven? Is it the same one? A spritual body?

1 Corinthians 15

⁴²So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; ⁴³it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; ⁴⁴it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

That doesn't really answer my question. Even you are saying that his physical form was up walking around in three days, so Jesus didn't really DIE, did he?

But some day your body will be raised up, at the resurrection. Does that mean you won't really have died? You really seem to be implying there's no such a thing as death................

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"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 10 April 2009 at 4:40pm

can someone please give me the reference in the bible where it says without a doubt "That Jesus (Pbuh) soul went to preach to the spirits that were in hell? I have heard many preachers say this.

Zaharah

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 11:21am

"That doesn't really answer my question. Even you are saying that his physical form was up walking around in three days, so Jesus didn't really DIE, did he?

But some day your body will be raised up, at the resurrection. Does that mean you won't really have died? You really seem to be implying there's no such a thing as death................"

No, what I am saying, no implication, is that if Jesus is God then his death wasn't REALLY death, was it, because God can't REALLY die, can He?

-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 April 2009 at 1:23pm

LOL!! Shasta Jesus was dead and in the tomb- so his body was in fact dead. He was resurrected and then walking around.

Are you confusing this with the ascension of Jesus?

Jesus' human shell dies, our shell dies but our soul never dies. I think Muslims believe this too right?

Death for the Christian is being away from GOD, Paradise /heaven is being with GOD.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 22 April 2009 at 2:10pm

believer wrote:

LOL!! Shasta Jesus was dead and in the tomb- so his body was in fact dead. He was resurrected and then walking around.

Are you confusing this with the ascension of Jesus?

Jesus' human shell dies, our shell dies but our soul never dies. I think Muslims believe this too right?

Death for the Christian is being away from GOD, Paradise /heaven is being with GOD.

My soul may live after I die, but it is not inhabiting my dead human shell and walking around appearing to people. It is awaiting the Day of Judgement.

If my soul were in fact able to reinhabit my body and continue on with my life then I wouldn't be dead. This is what happens when people are clinically dead for a period of time then are resuscitated. They are not really dead. They may have died for a minute or two, but they are not dead. This is proven by the fact that they are alive and walking around.

But I want to understand what you are saying. What you are saying is that God was dead for three days. Is that correct?

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 22 April 2009 at 2:13pm

"Death for the Christian is being away from GOD, Paradise /heaven is being with GOD."

I don't even know what to make of this statement. You just said that Jesus was dead. You believe that Jesus is God. You now state that death is being away from God. If Jesus is God and death is being away from God.... do you see where I'm going here?

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 April 2009 at 5:23pm

poor believer is just reapeating what he heard from preachers, so he cannot make anything out of it except to roll from one end of the pot to the other

, so to speak!

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 22 April 2009 at 6:10pm

Salams to my brothers and sisters posting on this forum,

Believer will not answer your question like he didnt answer my question. Many of the things that have been cut and pasted above are words from someone else, so honeto you are 100% right these are words from another preacher or some tv person collecting money.
Having converted from a minister to Islam myself, who is well versed in the Bible because that's what i taught, i can tell you that i have heard MANY PREACHERS say those exact same words to people confusing them and the people not understanding the text instead of seeking knowledge for themself's. I thank Allah for drawing me away and being found by Islam. But i can guarantee you that your questions will not be answered.
Zaharah

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 8:06am

Salams,Zaharah.Ameen Sister.May Allah Bless you.

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 9:03am

Zaharah wrote:

Salams to my brothers and sisters posting on this forum,

You was a preacher out of your own will and not God's will if were a true follower of God you would have never converted to Islam it just show you blind you are now you say every thing in the quran is true, if someone changed the scriptures it doesn,t mean you have to go to hell for this,that why God is always there to guide you but you have never met God in your live because you only live for yourself you taught the bible for god and your god is money the same god that you are worshiping now just another denomination.

READ THIS, IS THIS YOUR GOD.

When Quraysh heard this, they rejoiced and were happy and delighted at the way in which he spoke of their gods, and they listened to him, while the Muslims, having complete trust in their prophet in respect of the messages which he brought from God, did not suspect him of error, illusion, or mistake. When he came to the prostration, having completed the surah, he prostrated himself and the Muslims did likewise, following their prophet, trusting in the message which he had brought and following his example. Those polytheists of the Quraysh and others who were in the mosque (173) likewise prostrated themselves because of the reference to their gods which they had heard, so that there was no one in the mosque, believer orunbeliever, who did not prostrate himself. The one exception was al-Walid b. Al-Mughirah, who was a very old man and could not prostrate himself; but he took a handful of soil from the valley in his hand and bowed over that. Then they all dispersed from the mosque. The Quraysh left delighted by the mention of their gods which they had hared, saying,"Muhammad has mentioned our goes in the most favorable way possible, stating in his recitation that they are the high flying cranes and that their intercession is received with approval."

The news of the prostration reached those of the messenger of God's companions who were in Abyssinia and people said, "The Quraysh have accepted Islam." Some rose up to return, while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, "Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you." Then the messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad's tongue. Then God cancelled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed.

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 9:33am

Wa Alaikum As Salams brother Akhe Abdullah,
Thanks, but you know i'm only telling the truth.
May Allah Bless you to.

Maybe I need to start another forum on this subject and call it

Where Islam and Christians AGREE (that's after they convert/revert)

Zaharah

-------------
CHANGE- Let's change the way we eat, the way we live and the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working, so it's on us to do what we gotta do to survive.

Tupac A. Shakur...

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 11:21am

To Jouberar

First of all let me say, that's why i praise my God Allah for bringing me out of IGNORANCE like this! What i would like to say to you brother i won't out of respect for myself and my fellow brothers and sisters here in this forum. That is why i'm so glad to be found of Islam. Change is good, please refer to the signature below... Second-you said the word BLIND, yes i WAS when i was a christian and serving those pagan gods fattening the pockets of those that take from the poor. Careful bro poor is a broad category. Brother when u come, come correct!! Third- you mentioned someone changing the scriptures: We can't even count how many times the bible has been changed and words added here and taken out there as they like. Or did you my brother forget it says in your bible in the last of revelations(22:19) that no one is change not one word of this book,meaning to take away or that your god would take away your part from the book of life. (22:18) if any man shall add unto these things, then your god shall add unto him the plagues that were written in the book. The Qu'ran has NEVER been added to or changed. If so then somebody stand up and say so. Fourth-when I WAS blind and TEACHING not PREACHING I did NOT take any money from nobody. Any money that was given to me, i turned right around and put it back in the collecction plate. If you would like to check the records then PM me and i will give you phone numbers and names that will slience your thinking. Last please you copied and paste something that i have never seen. Please give me reference to this so i can study for myself and see this with my eyes.

NOW YOU READ THIS TO YOURSELF.....PEACE

ZAHARAH

-------------
CHANGE- Let's change the way we eat, the way we live and the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working, so it's on us to do what we gotta do to survive.

Tupac A. Shakur...

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 11:23am

As you can see, it's about to get hot up in here....

ZAHARAH

-------------
CHANGE- Let's change the way we eat, the way we live and the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working, so it's on us to do what we gotta do to survive.

Tupac A. Shakur...

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:59pm

As you can see, it's about to get hot up in here.... ZAHARAH

Zaharah..

well it is par for the course here..lol

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 11:28pm

Zaharah wrote:

To Jouberar

NOW YOU READ THIS TO YOURSELF.....PEACE

ZAHARAH

What about Rev 22 you simply ignored it the same as Muhammad and evrything and made up his own religion.

Go read the quran and the hadiths like what has pubic and arm pit hair shaving got to do with religion and shaving your head.

When the scriptures is changed you asked God for guidance Abraham at his hasn't got any scriptures and he worshipped God,Moses when he told the jews that God want to free them from slavery he haven;'t got scriptures to proof that he is a man from God so how did he proof he is a man from God make your own point of view or statement because paper is very patient.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 25 April 2009 at 4:45pm

People I will answer your questions I only have so much time at the computer. honeto - you used to be understanding on this- I have always tried to answer your questions.

"Death for the Christian is being away from GOD, Paradise /heaven is being with GOD."

If you don't understand this sorry but to the Christian this is the case- nothing is better then being with GOD surrounded by His love. Even better then 72 virgins!!

1 Peter 3:18-19

¹⁸For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, ¹⁹through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59852&FID=10 - Zaharah - your life is not done so you may see the light again. May I ask which church belonged to? "when i was a christian and serving those pagan gods fattening the pockets of those that take from the poor"

Actually the Quran has under gone change, please research!!

Good one - "Where Islam and Christians AGREE (that's after they convert/revert)"

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 8:59am

To Jouberar

All i have to say to you is LOGOUT.....I will NOT waste my fingertips on you again.....

peace
Zaharah

-------------
CHANGE- Let's change the way we eat, the way we live and the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working, so it's on us to do what we gotta do to survive.

Tupac A. Shakur...

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 9:23am

Zaharah wrote:

To Jouberar

All i have to say to you is LOGOUT.....I will NOT waste my fingertips on you again.....

peace
Zaharah

If you can't face brightness of the light then stay in the darkness.

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 9:26am

Believer, good to meet you here in the forum. I have no quarrel in here. The topic is how Islam & Christians agree/disagree. So we all have an opinion and the right to agree/disagree.

The church's i belonged to were from down south N.C & S.C until i came out. Even when i came out i still had my minister license so i taught my family and others that were in the neighborhood who would come to hear when i was given the opp to teach in a church. I used to say to some of the preacher's that

"we teacher's go place's that you preacher's can't". They would ask me to explain and i would say "If i'm teaching, how can i teach someone something that i havent done or experienced yet, ex: like how can i teach you to make homemade biscuits when i haven't made them or have been taught to make them?

I am a person whom seek knowledge by the grace of God no matter where it came from, so i picked up the Qu'ran and began to read and study for myself and i was found of Islam and i have been here ever since. I worship my God and they worship their

I posted something you did'nt give me an answer to and i don't think you will find it in the bible related to Jesus (PBUH) going to hell preaching to the souls that had passed before him. If it's there please give me reference so that i can go read and study for myself.

Zaharah

-------------
CHANGE- Let's change the way we eat, the way we live and the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working, so it's on us to do what we gotta do to survive.

Tupac A. Shakur...

Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 10:18am

believer wrote:

"Death for the Christian is being away from GOD, Paradise /heaven is being with GOD."

If you don't understand this sorry but to the Christian this is the case- nothing is better then being with GOD surrounded by His love. Even better then 72 virgins!!

It is presumably even better when, in the language of spiritual metaphor, which Christians usually seem to understand well enough when their own preachers speak it, the virgin surrounded by love in this case, it turns out, is the Christian him- or herself (Rev 19:7-9)!

Serv

"There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and virgins without number." (Song of Solomon 6:8)

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 2:47pm

Servetus wrote:

believer wrote:

"Death for the Christian is being away from GOD, Paradise /heaven is being with GOD."

If you don't understand this sorry but to the Christian this is the case- nothing is better then being with GOD surrounded by His love. Even better then 72 virgins!!

It is presumably even better when, in the language of spiritual metaphor, which Christians usually seem to understand well enough when their own preachers speak it, the virgin surrounded by love in this case, it turns out, is the Christian him- or herself (Rev 19:7-9)!

Serv

"There are sixty queens and eighty concubines, and virgins without number." (Song of Solomon 6:8)

Would this be the Christian equivalent of, as Gulliver so eloquently put it, "the heavenly whorehouse"?

-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 4:36pm

Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Would this be the Christian equivalent of, as Gulliver so eloquently put it, "the heavenly whorehouse"?

Let's face it: the anticipated defloration of celestial virgins is somehow purer when read in cathedrals, in Latin, from left to right, than when read in mosques, in Arabic, from right to left. But then again, I might be biased simply because, the one time I actually went to a mosque, I never heard Muslims say (or read) anything about those 72 virgins Cry

.

Serv

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 6:25pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23kristof.html?_r=2&th&emc=th - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23kristof.html?_r=2&th&emc=th

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 6:36pm

abuayisha wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23kristof.html?_r=2&th&emc=th - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23kristof.html?_r=2&th&emc=th

Interesting. Though in reading this one gets the incorrect idea that the punishment mentioned is Quranically based. I wish the authors of such op-eds would do enough homework to at least knowledgeably state that such is not true.

I am a fundamentalist, not even close to an extremist though the two are linked in this piece, and I find nothing in The Quran that calls for flogging girls in public for stepping out of their homes alone. Not even close....

-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 9:54pm

Fe, fi, fo, fum, I think I smell the blood of those notoriously tricky Jesuits. I think we'd better call Ian Paisley to investigate. Moreover, it seems the only time Notre Dame University is Catholic, these days, is when it comes to subjecting the Quran to the so-called "higher" literary criticism and hosting seminars to that end.

Not that it is necessarily related, but I read this same suggestion, that "houri" is a mistranslation of "grape," years ago, in an article at www.chiesa.com, a slick and informative website of, for and primarily about Rome and the Vatican and one which is rarely, it seems to me, disinterested concerning Islam. My browser won't load it at the moment, but I think it is this article:

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/145581&eng=y

In the above-linked article, the NYTimes reiterates the theme, noting that:

"... One scholar at the Notre Dame conference ... has raised eyebrows and hackles by suggesting that the 'houri' promised to martyrs when they reach Heaven doesn't actually mean 'virgin' after all. He argues that it means 'grapes,' and since conceptions of Heaven involved bounteous fruit, that makes sense ..."

Well it might make sense to Nicholas Kristof, the op-ed columnist at the New York Times, but, when I read it within context, it doesn't make much sense to me. Since when, for instance, are "grapes" known to have wide eyes? Seriously. If I am not mistaken, and someone please correct me if I am, these ayats, among others, refer to houris:

"And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes, -like unto Pearls well-guarded." (Yusuf Ali 56:22-23)

That doesn't sound like a bunch of grapes to me. And neither, for that matter, do the concubines and virgins without number that are so provocatively and, I might add, deliciously mentioned in the Biblical Song of Solomon. But enough of this subject or I run the risk of being forcibly removed first from catechism, then from Sunday School, and finally from Madrassa ...

Serv

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 April 2009 at 7:01am

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �The first group will enter Paradise looking like the moon on the night when it is full, and those who follow them will be like the brightest shining star in the sky. Their hearts will be as one, and there will be no hatred or jealousy among them. Each man will have two wives from among al-hoor al-�iyn, the marrow of whose calves can be seen from beneath the bone and flesh.� (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3014)

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 April 2009 at 2:18pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

Zaharah wrote:

Salams to my brothers and sisters posting on this forum,

READ THIS, IS THIS YOUR GOD.

boy, I thought my English was bad. Jouberar could you please simplify your pain, and clarify your question, also don't forget to mention from where you quote, and I promise, you will be glad to learn more about not just ours but yours as well, how to come to the truth and worshipping none but your creator alone.

Peace,

Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 27 April 2009 at 2:45pm

honeto wrote:

JOUBERAR wrote:

Zaharah wrote:

Salams to my brothers and sisters posting on this forum,

READ THIS, IS THIS YOUR GOD.

Peace,

Hasan

This is so simple you show me you don't know your own religion what are you a rookie muslim or a recent convert.

Must I explain it to you in raw english then you also would not understood a phrase I wrote.

To clarify my qeustion is this your god that first Muhammad spoke good things about thier gods it is like I join you then you join with me then after you agree with me I told how bad your gods were afterwards is this a I scratch your back you scratch my back agreement.

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 27 April 2009 at 3:21pm

No harm intended
Zaharah

-------------
CHANGE- Let's change the way we eat, the way we live and the way we treat each other. You see the old way wasn't working, so it's on us to do what we gotta do to survive.

Tupac A. Shakur...

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 April 2009 at 10:39am

Zaharah - LOL! this is the 3rd time now that I have posted this on this thread.

1 Peter 3:18-19

Through out the Bible the relationship between the Church and GOD is compared to a marriage. GOD has unbounding love for His church, people.

Revelation 19

⁷Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁸And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

⁹And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

There are beautiful queens, concubines, etc. in the world and of the world but none are as beautiful as my wife, my dove, in this case again His church, His people:

Song of Solomon 6

⁸There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

⁹My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 28 April 2009 at 2:07pm

Believer LOL...

I got this passage from online New International Version: Biblegateway.com

Do you see the period right after the word prison? Like i was saying a little while back to someone else in here, the bible has changed so much with as many as 8 different versions. Now the king james verson has a (;) there in the place of a period. You also said earlier in this forum that Jesus (PBUH) went to hell and preached, Believer no where in any translation you will find that HE WENT TO HELL. It simply says that he went to prison.

¹⁹ By means of the Spirit, Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. ²⁰ Long ago they did not obey. God was patient while Noah was building the ark. He waited, but only a few people went into the ark. A total of eight were saved by means of water.

Zaharah

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 April 2009 at 8:53am

Sorry I should have added the last part of the verse:

NIV: I don't see the period, that doesn't really matter, the thought needs to be completed.

1 Peter 3

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

KJV:

1 Peter 3

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

How could Jesus preach to the souls in prison who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah if he had not gone to hell?

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 April 2009 at 4:56pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

honeto wrote:

JOUBERAR wrote:

Zaharah wrote:

Salams to my brothers and sisters posting on this forum,

READ THIS, IS THIS YOUR GOD.

Peace,

Hasan

This is so simple you show me you don't know your own religion what are you a rookie muslim or a recent convert.

Must I explain it to you in raw english then you also would not understood a phrase I wrote.

Jouberar,

I am sorry if my response made you jump in the air, it was not intended. What I ask you simply: from where do you get what you wrote can you provide some referance, because in my memory it does not exist in the Quran, revealed through the prophet.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 01 May 2009 at 7:14pm

Believer,

That is what i meant by people adding words or phrase's that are not there.

Zaharah

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 03 May 2009 at 11:02am

If I can only guess that Mr Jouberar is quoting from "The satanic Verses" by Maloon Rushdee. In this book the author has referred his work from unathuntic sources from history which when compared against the authentic Ahadith collection, doesn't stand at all. However, psuedo scholar like Maloon Rushdee, doesn't care about authenticity but the Money associated with creating sensation. Nevertheless, the material itself doesn't prove anything except throwing baseless slurs.

Posted By: Salome
Date Posted: 03 May 2009 at 12:14pm

AhmadJoyia wrote:

If I can only guess that Mr Jouberar is quoting from "The satanic Verses" by Maloon Rushdee. In this book the author has referred his work from unathuntic sources from history which when compared against the authentic Ahadith collection, doesn't stand at all. However, psuedo scholar like Maloon Rushdee, doesn't care about authenticity but the Money associated with creating sensation. Nevertheless, the material itself doesn't prove anything except throwing baseless slurs.

    Well for one thing the mans name is Ahmed Salman RUSHDIE, the second thing is I find completely moronic that an entire religion would want to kill this man, WHY ? Because he wrote something you don't agree with? So don't read it !!!    There was a movie that came out I think 5- 10 years ( maybe more ) called " THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST " which in the minds and hearts of many Christians this was blasphemy !!!! But those who didn't like it ( such as myself ) didn't see it. We didn't search out to kill the person who wrote it or the people who made the film......

   See what I'm getting at......

   Salome

-------------
May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
the foresight to know where you're going
and the insight to know when you're going too far.

Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 May 2009 at 2:36am

Thus quoting from Maloon Rushdee makes your assertion simply baseless and nothing but slurs. Do you want to pursue this line of arguments once it comes to discussing religion?? I bet, there are thousands on the other side to pay you back equally, if not more, on similar bases.