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No more frivolous Fatwas

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Basics of Islam
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Topic: No more frivolous Fatwas
Posted By: Opinion
Subject: No more frivolous Fatwas
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 8:46pm

The Muslim world's top scholars have agreed that fatwas, or religious edicts, should only be issued by clerics with religious authority. The move is meant to weaken statements by figures involved in fighting in Iraq who ordain violence. The three-day meeting in Amman, which ended on Wednesday, has for the first time gathered representatives of eight Sunni and Shia Muslim schools of thought.


They all also agreed that followers cannot label other Muslims as "apostates", something groups in Iraq have done to justify attacks against Iraqi police and civilians. A conference statement said the clerics agreed that an adherent of each of the eight schools of thought "is a Muslim". "Declaring that person an apostate is impossible, verily his or her blood, honor and property are sacrosanct," according to the statement read by Jordanian Religious Affairs Minister Abdul-Salam al-Abadi.

Amman Message

The meeting, which brought together about 180 scholars and clergymen from 40 countries including the United States, was sponsored by the semi-independent Al Elbeit Foundation. The religious think-tank is led and partly financed by members of Jordan's ruling Hashemite dynasty, which claims direct descent from the Prophet Muhammad. Jordan's King Abdullah II brought the clerics together to discuss a plan to implement a Jordanian initiative declared in November. Dubbed the "Amman Message", the initiative urges Muslims to reject extremism, embrace moderation and tolerate other religions.

Qualified clerics

In the lead-up to the conference, 10 top Muslim clergymen - including Egypt's Grand Imam Sheik al-Azhar Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi and Iraq's Grand Ayat Allah Ali al-Sistani - ruled that fatwas must only be in the hands of qualified clerics recognized by Islam's eight schools of thought. "The issuance of religious edicts is limited to qualified Muslim clerics in the eight schools of jurisprudence," said the conference statement. It said the meeting called for "casting aside disagreement between Muslims and unifying their words and stances". 

Voice of moderation

King Abdullah had told the opening meeting on Monday that Muslims must search their souls and extremists must accept the blame over the "malicious" attacks against their religion by non-Muslims after Islamic-linked terrorism and violence in countries such as Iraq. Abdullah presided over the closing session to underline the significance he attached to the meeting. He did not address the clerics on Wednesday but sat in to hear the final communique. The monarch is seen as a key US ally in the Middle East and a voice of moderation although his country has been criticized by fighters such al-Qaida's Iraq chief Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi for its close ties with the West.




Replies:
Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 12:56am

Bismillah

Quote The Muslim world's top scholars have agreed that fatwas, or religious edicts, should only be issued by clerics with religious authority.

Let's hope that authorisation will not need approval of Bush & Blair Inc. The very fact that the report mentions 'sponsors' of the event already brings shivers... Buying and selling fatwas. "Interesitng".



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MOCKBA


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 1:02pm
Bro MOCKBA, don't you feel the need for such a measure? For me Fatwa's without authentic certificates is just a piece of junk but for many Muslims, especially in arab world, it does mean alot even if they can't verify the credentials of its originators. What's your opinon?


Posted By: yusufevers
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 1:51pm

it is amazing isn't?    almost of the imaams mentioned in the article are state appointed (and paid) and not to forget state controlled.  

the king of jordan is probably the worst muslim of all muslims leaders in the world. 

so the above gentlemen hit on the real muslims who fight for their country's freedom as Allah Subhan wa Tallah ordered all muslims to do so. 

remember our Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said:  one of the signs of the Last Day will be that when a dog attacks a muslim country it can not defend itself.

this is due to this great imaams and their hunger for power and love for the kufar.  and Allah knows best!



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 6:58pm

Bismillah

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Bro MOCKBA, don't you feel the need for such a measure? For me Fatwa's without authentic certificates is just a piece of junk but for many Muslims, especially in arab world, it does mean alot even if they can't verify the credentials of its originators. What's your opinon?

There is absolutely no doubt that fatwas are to be issued by qualified people (preferrably through consultation). Nobody has ever claimed otherwise. Qualification requirements however are not to be dictated by "moderate and progressive" Muslims or corrupt Monarchs and their non-believing masters. Neither can they be achieved through sponsoring events or buying recognition.

This appears to be an attempt to install practices of lobbying and money-politics within Muslim societies that are very common if not fundamental in the ungodly governing systems of the western world.

Authenticity should be established but not by Abdullah of Jordan and not on the ground that he claims to have "direct descent from Prophet Muhammad...". 

They will try, however, hi-jacking the authority, through various PR techniques similiar to the one reported above. This is why every Muslim should not be ignorant of what Allah commands us in the Quran and what Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) instructed us to do through the Sunnah.



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MOCKBA


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 6:28am
Bro MOCKBA, though without arguing upon your concerns of attempting to hi-jack the authority by someone with vested interests, shouldn't the true Ulema have done similar consultation at their own? I doubt if there is any even a word of communication among them on the current issues. Their silence on these issues may be interpreted my someone as acquiescence of it rather than denouncing it. Isn't this itself make them blameworthy?


Posted By: muslim_gal1988
Date Posted: 19 August 2005 at 1:39pm


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 20 August 2005 at 2:56am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

The only authority in Islam is the four madhhabs, Each of these madhhabs have there methodology for ensuring that any ruling is in line with the Quran and Sunnah so a hanafi scholar living in Africa can know if a ruling made by another hanafi scholar living in Malaysia is in line with the methodology of the madhhab thus ensuring the integraty of Islam.

It is only when you see so called modern scholars who either dont follow a madhhab ie no methodology just there own personal judgment or scholars who do follow a madhhab but think they are capable of ijtihad that rulings contrary to Islam arise.

Or the scholar is just corupt and he is making rulings and claiming they are part of islam and from the madhhabs.

Islam has only 4 schools of thought, Hanafi, shafii, Maliki, Hanbali.

Shia, wahabi and what ever else they include to make up 8 is just an outright lie that they hold any authority in traditional mainstream islam. The shia have never been recognised as being a school of thought by sunni scholars and the wahabis themselves would be insulted being labelled a madhhab, they have no methodology for there law what so ever.

I think the author of the article is ignorant of the fundamental basics of what a school of thought actualy is.




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 21 August 2005 at 12:24pm
wa aleykum salam wr wb

Quote The only authority in Islam is the four madhhabs


according to?

Quote Islam has only 4 schools of thought, Hanafi, shafii, Maliki, Hanbali.


according to?

Quote The shia have never been recognised as being a school of thought by sunni scholars


since when did the sunni scholars become the be all end all truthof Islam? seriously im wondering.

As for people issuing fatwas id say its bad enough when educated people do it. let alone people who arent. Imams who are handfed by the western governments fatwas, wouldnt make much of an impact on me. To be honest i would just ignore them, as i do with everybody elses frivolous fatwas. I saw a fatwa that made it illegal to prepare food in an microwaveoven where there had been prepared swine, so it was haram. Im pretty sure God tells us that he is the one making things un and lawfull, and i havent seen an oven mentioned anywhere in Quran. what gives? are there hadith about microwave ovens?, or are the scholars as usual playing mightyer than God, making this lawfull and that unlawfull?






Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 12:07am

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

According to the consensus of companions and scholars from the begining of islam until now, with a chain of authority leading back to the prophet himself and on the same level of integrity as the preservation of the Quran since the authority for both were preseved and passed on by the same people.

Doubt the Authority of one and you doubt the Authority of the Quran.


Quote Islam has only 4 schools of thought, Hanafi, shafii, Maliki, Hanbali
according to?

This is not "according to", this is a reality there are four schools of thought in exisance today.

Quote The shia have never been recognised as being a school of thought by sunni scholars
since when did the sunni scholars become the be all end all truthof Islam? seriously im wondering.

The prophet taught the companions, the companions taught the successors, they taught the generation that came after them and they taught the generation that came after and so on and so on and so on. You seem to lack a sence of history and time in your argumentation Noah.

Quote As for people issuing fatwas id say its bad enough when educated people do it. let alone people who arent. Imams who are handfed by the western governments fatwas, wouldnt make much of an impact on me. To be honest i would just ignore them, as i do with everybody elses frivolous fatwas. I saw a fatwa that made it illegal to prepare food in an microwaveoven where there had been prepared swine, so it was haram. Im pretty sure God tells us that he is the one making things un and lawfull, and i havent seen an oven mentioned anywhere in Quran. what gives? are there hadith about microwave ovens?, or are the scholars as usual playing mightyer than God, making this lawfull and that unlawfull?

if your food becomes contaminated by pig meat you can not eat it, simple basic understanding based on a hadith. If somehow this fatwa has proven that your food becomes contaminated by puting it in a microwave that was used to cook pork then this is sufficient ground to make using a microwave in such instances Haram as your food would be contaminated by the pig meat.

Just becouse you lack the basic knowledge to understand an issue does not mean the issue is rediculous. Those people who understand what is being said and on what ground the argument is being made are in a better position to judge the truth of the matter than a person who says this is rediculous becouse i dont understand it at all.




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 4:20am
Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

According to the consensus of companions and scholars from the begining of islam until now, with a chain of authority leading back to the prophet himself and on the same level of integrity as the preservation of the Quran since the authority for both were preseved and passed on by the same people.

Doubt the Authority of one and you doubt the Authority of the Quran.

wa aleykum salam wr wb

people cannot even agree to the "chain" so what im reading is. Doubt the authority of a human being and you dont belive in the authority of God. wtf?! Bor, thats not right.


Quote

This is not "according to", this is a reality there are four schools of thought in exisance today.

No there are several more, but as usual other people have a problem with them. However, i dont need any persons accept, Gods will do fine.

Quote

The prophet taught the companions, the companions taught the successors, they taught the generation that came after them and they taught the generation that came after and so on and so on and so on. You seem to lack a sence of history and time in your argumentation Noah.

No not at all, i just dont see where God promise he will reserve this chain of command. He promised to preserve The Quran, and that i trust fully. no doubt, no nothing. God said it, so its true. Dont balme me for being sceptic about a system that to mee lokos very much like the catholic church. And im pretty sure that was not Gods intention ever. But as it is a matter of oppinion from the both of us, and as oppinion cant be proven wrong. all i can say is "to you yours, to me mine" and then i hope there can still be respect amongst us :)

Quote

if your food becomes contaminated by pig meat you can not eat it, simple basic understanding based on a hadith. If somehow this fatwa has proven that your food becomes contaminated by puting it in a microwave that was used to cook pork then this is sufficient ground to make using a microwave in such instances Haram as your food would be contaminated by the pig meat.

Just becouse you lack the basic knowledge to understand an issue does not mean the issue is rediculous. Those people who understand what is being said and on what ground the argument is being made are in a better position to judge the truth of the matter than a person who says this is rediculous becouse i dont understand it at all.

 

I agree, just because i dont understand something doesnt mean its not right. Ofcourse. There many things that i dont know, you could write librarys full of things that i dont know. However, i do know that nothing survives in a microwave oven due to the nature of the way it works. You could cook sh*t (sorry) in it, and then your food afterwards, and nothing would happen, because nothing survive being microwaved. So in this case its the "scholar" who are completely oblivious to FACTS, and just follow his intution rather than using reasoning and study. The point however is not our brother shcholar but the fact that there are way to many fatwas comming out based on conjecture, and illinformed thinking. I do not put blame on them, as i know they are doing it from a good, well meaning heart. Im just rather sceptical about it, and has developed a habbit of looking into the fatwas presented myself, before i accept a ruling.


[/QUOTE]


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 5:29am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

people cannot even agree to the "chain" so what im reading is. Doubt the authority of a human being and you dont belive in the authority of God. wtf?! Bor, thats not right.

What chain are you talking about, you have preconcieved ideas in your head which you cant clear enough to see what i am actualy saying to you. What chain of authority are you reffering to?

Your logic seems to lack a few key facts, Allah raised prophets perfected there charecter so they would not err and sent his revelation to them so they could teach it to us without mistake. Allah said he will protect the Quran in the Quran, Guess what he did this by raising certain humans who we call Awliayah or saints or sidiqun after the prophet muhammad so they could preserve the religion ie the Quran and the sunnah. You have the Quran from the same people as the chain of authority for the madhhabs not a different one.

�Whoso obeyeth Allah and the Messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favor, of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they! Such is the bounty of Allah, and Allah sufficeth as Knower� (An-Nisaa�: 69�70).

All this is in the Quran if you understand it.

So what is your argument they where good enough to protect the Quran but not his religion...? . Allah has always used humans to Guide Humans, would you like evidence for this basic fact also.

No there are several more, but as usual other people have a problem with them. However, i dont need any persons accept, Gods will do fine.

In sunni Islam which comprises 85-90% of All Muslims on earth there are Four schools of thought, you want to follow other than sunni Islam that is your perogative.

No not at all, i just dont see where God promise he will reserve this chain of command. He promised to preserve The Quran, and that i trust fully. no doubt, no nothing. God said it, so its true. Dont balme me for being sceptic about a system that to mee lokos very much like the catholic church. And im pretty sure that was not Gods intention ever. But as it is a matter of oppinion from the both of us, and as oppinion cant be proven wrong. all i can say is "to you yours, to me mine" and then i hope there can still be respect amongst us :)

You dont understand how the Quran was preserved, He raised people to do this which he has clearly stated in the Quran by first saying that saints do exist and will always exist, by saying he has placed certain people in authority among us and we should follow them, by saying there are rightious extremely hounest and of high integraty in this Ummah and there are so many more verses in the Quran which describe the people of this Ummah.

You look at what is bad and mix it with what Allah himself has said is good and exists, Would you like a sign saying pious person here ---> and look he taught another person what Allah taught him and raised him up to saint hood also and this student did the same whith his student. I can Quote verses from the Quran if you like but wont bother now becouse i dont know if you are interested or your heart is closed.

Did you know of the 6600 versus in the Quran only 500 are legislative in nature, the remainder are about truth of Allah, historical wisdom and developing excelent character. The Quran has done its job by raising people of integraty and hounesty this is why it is here, these people existed in abundace in our Ummah and at crutiual times they came to the forefront would you like names and details of there character and achievments.

And as our prophet mentioned at the end there will be a period of decline this was prophasised this is what you see. this is of little consaquence though when it comes to knowing your religion becouse most things have been clarified by these awliyah and it is all recorded and preserved it is only new matters that come up such as microwaves that you see people who are not even of the same calibr or integraty as the scholars i am talking about that you see ignorace and lack of inteligence.

I agree, just because i dont understand something doesnt mean its not right. Ofcourse. There many things that i dont know, you could write librarys full of things that i dont know. However, i do know that nothing survives in a microwave oven due to the nature of the way it works. You could cook sh*t (sorry) in it, and then your food afterwards, and nothing would happen, because nothing survive being microwaved. So in this case its the "scholar" who are completely oblivious to FACTS, and just follow his intution rather than using reasoning and study.

Now you are using reason to see that this scholar was applying principles established in a hadith or verse and attempting to apply them in our time. If this is true that nothing survives then there is no apparant reason for the Fatwah and his analysis was wrong. This does not make Islam or the remainder of scholars wrong, did you happen to know which madhhab he followed?


The point however is not our brother shcholar but the fact that there are way to many fatwas comming out based on conjecture, and illinformed thinking. I do not put blame on them, as i know they are doing it from a good, well meaning heart. Im just rather sceptical about it, and has developed a habbit of looking into the fatwas presented myself, before i accept a ruling.


This what the Madhhabs are for ensuring integraty and due process and analysis of the issue before a person can give a fatwah, most funny rulings you see are by people who are anti madhhab meaning they do not follow a methodology and make rulings based there own opinion and a Quick look at a few verses and some ahadith.

This may give you a better understanding, its very short.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhab.htm - http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhab.htm

Insha allah repect remains between us, i wish you would tone down your language though


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



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