http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0503-2643 - Real Debate About the Status of Women
by Dr. Aslam Abdullah
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http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0503-2644 - Women and the Masjid between two extremes
by Dr. Louay M. Safi
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http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0503-2646 - Woman Imam Leading Men and Women in Salat
by Dr. Muzammil Siddqi
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No, We Don't Have More Important Issues: In Support of Women-Led Prayer

by Sarah Eltantawi.

I am in strong support of the mixed gender women's prayer to take place on March 18, 2005, in New York City. While there is no question that Dr. Amina Wadud will make history during April 18th-s prayer, this event is at least as important for its symbolic value, what it implies about Muslim women and it's shattering of a taboo. Muslims - men and women - will sit down after Friday prayers and listen to the Quranic reflections of a sensitive, intelligent and pious member of our community. It will be an honor and a treat for me to precede my prayer by listening to what Dr. Wadud has to say about various Quranic ayat, or a more general theme, or perhaps she will simply reflect on the historic nature of the day. The point is that I will for the first time cease to be robbed of my right to hear the melodic spiritual reflections of a respected member of my community during the hour in which I am supposed to be in community with fellow Muslims. 

Black, White, Asian, Arab, Female, Male: if you are learned and insightful, I want to hear you reflect on Islam during Friday prayer. And I want to hear it live, in a clean setting, with full view of the Imam and with full rights to ask questions. 

I am an intellectually curious being and I will not be relegated to the dungeon of your mosque. No more, not ever again. 

The circumstances of April 18th-s prayer are not perfect, as many have been all too quick to point out. It would surely have been better had the official Muslim community been on board and had we had the support of the establishment. And yet the fact that they have ignored our persistent efforts to explain that this issue is vitally important is their problem, not ours. Just as many of our families fled tyranny in various countries to attempt to lead a better, freer life, a life that made sense, so too will Muslims flee tyrannical, patriarchal mosques in search of freedom, in search of a mosque, or for now, a congregation, that makes sense. These are the way of things, and we are not worried. 

The responses the organizers of this event, Asra Nomani and Saleemah Abdel-Ghafour, received from the more conservative members of our community was to be expected. Many attacked the prayer as lacking grounding in Islamic legal sources, refuting attempts progressives made to ground their activities in precisely this way. When progressives supplied ahadith, conservatives asked why we chose ahadith selectively, supplying a slew of misygonistgic, questionable hadith with which to sully the discussion. When progressives supplied verses from the Quran that upheld women's equality, conservatives hurled more hadith. 

What is truly disappointing, though unfortunately not shocking, is the response of the so-called "moderates" to the mixed prayer. I am not someone who believes that all of our institutions are "bad" or "extreme". I have worked in them long enough to know the terrain is much more complicated than that, and that there are some excellent, dedicated people working throughout our community. Indeed, on many issues, Muslims must stand united. But this is internal, and it's important: I demand to know where the Muslim women's League stands on this issue. I demand to know where the Muslim Public Affairs Council, and the Council on American-Islamic Relations stands on this issue. I demand to know where ISNA stands on this issue. Come on guys, take a stand and tell us clearly what you think. Spell it out and stop cowering in the corner. Though I disagree with him, at least Aslam Abdullah of the Muslim Observer has had the guts to add to the dialogue on this issue. He writes in Islamicity that: 

"Those who are seriously concerned about improving the status of Muslim women should devote themselves to identifying with the impoverished, underprivileged and powerless women that are scattered all over the world. To talk about equality in a country that protects equality through constitutional means is a meaningless effort. However, to identify with those who suffer at the grassroots is heroic." 

I beg to differ. "Identifying" with the "impoverished" and "underprivileged" is what is meaningless. Those who believe the rhetoric of identity politics is in and of itself "heroic" are the one's with the problem. An activist who is looking at the wider problems of misogyny understands that the same forces that prevent women from taking leadership roles in mosques, or indeed, entering mosques, are the same forces that encourage and even institutionalize illiteracy (among other forces, or course). An activist, a concerned citizen, should always choose "doing" over "identifying". No one needs over-privileged Western Muslims to "identify" with anything if they are just going to use that "identification" to be smug, self-righteous and give themselves a hip 21st century identity in America, sticking their noses in the air as they claim to be concerned about "more important things" than mere prayer space. This is a smoke screen, and it is cowardly. This behavior suggests nothing more than a lack of moral certitude and conviction. 

Again, if you don't believe women should lead prayers, than have the cojenes to come out and say so. 

And one more thing. I have worked in the mainstream Muslim community for a few years now, and I can tell you what these groups are actually doing about world-wide illiteracy and hunger: absolutely nothing. 

"We Have More Important Issues" 

American Muslims - including American Muslim women - are the most educated and politically free Muslims in the world. With all due respect, there is no point in pretending that we suffer the plight of refugees or illiterate women throughout the Muslim world. Such self-righteous bluster is in fact condescending and disrespectful to actual victims and the real under-privileged. Taking the world-wide view, no Muslim in the United States in under-privileged, unless of course they have been picked up and imprisoned without charge by Ashcroft-s goons, another issue entirely. 

Absent concrete strategies to alleviate serious issues like ending world wide illiteracy, health issues affecting Muslim women, and other serious, deep, institutional social-ills, to prop up these issues as a greater priority amounts to a disingenuous dodge of actual, winnable issues right here and now. It is the singular advantage afforded to only the most over-privileged Muslims on the planet to point plaintively at all the suffering people around the world while systematically undermining and attacking the small steps toward change progressives right here and now, on the achievable planet earth, are affecting before their eyes. It is a cop out. It is cowardice. 

Anyone who has ridden an airplane knows that one is instructed, in case of emergency landing, to put on one's own oxygen mask before helping others put on theirs - even if that person is your own child. I ask the "moderate" detractors - how are we to address world-wide poverty, widespread illiteracy and the plight of refugees if the most privileged, educated, and politically free Muslim women in the world can not so much as pray in dignity in their own houses of worship? Are you not ashamed? What right do you have to talk of the plight of refugee women in Afghanistan if Muslims in this country of excess and privilege are busy discussing whether a woman is in her right mind while menstruating or worrying about whether a man will be able to concentrate on his if confronted with a woman-s backside? Or if a woman should be allowed into a mosque at all? 

How fantastically hypocritical for some women to speak of the ills of women's illiteracy world-wide (a problem that is for these who worry about them, of course, only an abstraction) when these very same women do not believe that they themselves, or their sisters, are intellectually capable of being the spiritual or intellectual leaders of a community! What then, sisters, is the point of this literacy? Do you want to educate illiterate Indian Muslim sisters so that they may sit in the basement of their local mosque, breast-feeding? Should we educate illiterate Egyptian sisters, only to have them worry that raising their voice in the mosque will unleash misyoginistic cries of "awra"? Should we educate illiterate Nigerian sisters, but prevent them from serving as judges in "Islamic" courts that would otherwise be content to sentence them to death by public stoning for adultery? 

Those who want to undermine these efforts to uplift and progress our community must undergo some introspection. What is really fueling your distaste for the progressives? Is it because you didn't do it first? Is it because on some level, you benefit from the current patriarchal structure, having always made compromises and concessions to be the "good" Muslim woman? Are you afraid to lose the approval of sexist men, not entirely sure you can stand on your own two feet? 

Change is happening because it must. American Muslims must get our own house in order before we cry crocodile tears about refugees across the world. Pity is not an honorable emotion. Supporting the change for real equality for our community so that we may be strong enough to really effectively help our sisters and brothers around the world is. We can not be strong unless women are fully empowered. Until then, we can continue to point to refugees in Afghanistan over our lavish dinners and fine teas, lining up behind men, compromising ourselves yet again - for how long, no one can say, and no one bothers to ask. 

Sarah Eltantawi is a co-founder of the Progressive Muslim Union

I think we already have enough problems in the Muslim community that must be fixed. Poverty, illiterate among Muslim women in the Muslim country are so high. This problems are real and not arguable, who can prove this less important than above activity (women led prayer). The example that sarah gave "aircraft emergency", it is not comparable at all, with the need of women to lead prayer.  I think this is should be the highest priority for Muslim  women feminist. Introducing Muslim women led Friday prayer in mix congregation is not wise at all. It creates more division, hearting the umah, wasting our energy. Nobody get any benefit, the pro or the contra.

The person who claimed as an intellectual Muslim should be able to prioritize the need of the ummah.

As salaamu alaikum sister Sarah,

As a western born and raised citizen and a Muslim woman, I am taken far aback by your comments and your attitude.  I am rather amazed that you would wish to be a Muslim at all considering your seeming outright rage and hatred of all things Muslim!  Why did you not join a faith that is closer to the feelings of your heart? 

Through your whole letter you seem to virtually spit venom as you denounce one Muslim law/custom/way/tradition after another.  It seems from what you say that you are against a lot of things that Allah has told us in the Qur'an are what Muslims are to do.  (You cite breastfeeding, stoning to death for adultery, covering our awrah, lowering the gaze - just to name a few). 

I would take from your letter that being a "progressive" Muslim means to throw out our long and beautiful history and traditions, ignore the Qur'an and hadith and  whine and bluster like a spoiled westerner.

I apologize if I sound harsh or even insulting, sister, but I do have the "testicles" to stand on my own two feet and speak my mind.  I don't like most of what you  have said.  I find it very insulting to Muslims and very injurious to the ummah.  You rant about the need for us to stand together all the while you pick us apart.

"Progressives" seem to want to re-write Islam in their own secular, westernized ideal.  Allah Almighty gave us the gift of Islam, the perfect religion.  Humans, however, are far from perfect.  This is what we all must work on, ourselves, our faith and our knowledge.

There can be no Islam without the Qur'an, hadith and shari'ah.  There is nothing unequal, unfair, sexist or patriarchal in Allah's perfect system of worship and living. There are only flawed, or misinformed humans who twist it to their own ends. 

You state "It would surely have been better had the official Muslim community been on board and had we had the support of the establishment."  Does the fact that they are not behind you not give you a clue?

You state "American Muslims - including American Muslim women - are the most educated and politically free Muslims in the world."  On what do you base this?  To a non-American, this sounds like typical American arrogance.  If you are so well educated, why do you not seem to understand the basic principles and concepts of Islam?

I have never compromised nor made concessions in order to be a "good" Muslim woman, nor have I ever sought the approval of any "sexist" man.  The only approval I seek is that of Allah which I do by trying my best to follow His perfect religion, Islam.  I do not seek to change or modernize or westernize or secularize Allah's perfect religion.  Allah willing, I will be the best Muslim I can be, by His grace and mercy.  I pray that ALL Muslims will be guided to the straight path through the blessed mercy and grace of Allah.

Peace, ummziba.

A woman is allowed to be an Imam of women and she can lead the congregation of females only in Salah, but a woman is not allowed to lead the Salah, neither fard salah nor nafl, for a mixed gathering of males and females. It is reported by Aisha, Umm Salamah and 'Ata' -may Allah be pleased with them- that "A woman can be an Imam of women." It is also reported by Dar Qutni that the Prophet -peace be upon him- allowed Umm Waraqah to lead the women of her house in Salah. The woman Imam should not stand in front of the line like the male Imam, but she should stand in the middle of the line of the people praying under her Imamah.

In a mixed gathering of worshippers, the Sunnah of the Prophet -peace be upon him- is that men should stand in the front rows, then children and then women.

This way is most conducive to the dignity of men and women both and it helps both of them to concentrate on their prayers. If a woman were to become the Imam of a mixed gathering of worshippers then she would have to stand in front of them or women have to stand in front of men and she as their Imam would have to stand among them. This will be both a violation of the Sunnah and will disrupt the dignity and the spirituality of the worshippers as well.

In the matters of worship, Islam teaches us that we should follow the commands of Allah and His prophet only and should not do anything that would violate their rules. In our worldly matters, however, we are allowed to make our own experiments as much as possible without indulging into anything Haram.

It is for this reasons that the Muslim jurists say, "The rule in the matters of worship ('Ibadat) is that every thing is forbidden except whatever is allowed; and the rule in the worldly matters ('Adat) is that every thing is allowed except whatever is forbidden."

In the Name of Allah the Merciful and Compassionate,

On the authority of Aisha (Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said,  �There is no good in the congregation of women.� Ahmad, and Tabrani in Awsat)

At the same time, it is reported by Rayta that Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) led them in the prayers and stood in between, in a fard prayer. ( Imam Abdul Razzaq in his Musannaf)

Imam Zafar Usmani explains the two ahadith by stating that that  first narration explains the general offensiveness of women�s own congregation . Sayyida Aisha's leading of prayer, which is stated in the latter hadith, indicates the permissibility at times and to teach the women the proper method of prayer.

We do not negate the permissibility of this matter, to such an extent that if they were to pray in congregation of their own, we would state the validity of the prayer.  (Imam Zafar Usmani, I�la al-Sunan 4: 215)

Without such a reason, however, a congregation of women would be prohibitively disliked (makruh tahriman), [Maraqi al-Falah, Hashiyat Ibn Abidin.] because it is going against that which has been legislated, which is that women either pray alone (given the normal case would be for them to pray at home), or behind a male congregation.

The Hanafi imams also note that had it been something that was a general recommendation or generally permissible for women, then the female companions of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who were most avid to seek Allah's pleasure would have adopted it as a widespread practice. But there is nothing to indicate that this was the case, from which the Hanafis (and many other mujtahids from the salaf) understood that the narrations of permissibility indicate the exceptional cases, explained above, and not the rule.

It is also important to understand that the nature of legal responsibility differs between men and women. That which is best for men to do is not necessarily best for women, and vice versa. And all are commanded seek the pleasure of Allah, as He wants from them.

And Allah knows best.

Source: Sunnipath.com

Astafghur-Allah, What is this world coming to? These ladies are trying to start Fitna. Its not even worthy of a response. A simple comment though, An Imam is traditionally appointed and is expected to lead all five prayers in the masjid. Now lets say for a moment that a woman is elected as an imam,what will she do, take one weeks vacation's during her time of cleansing or is she going to start another fitna and say its ok to lead prayer in that state too!!! This unclensing state is mentioned in the Quran Karim. Let alone lead, women are even excused to offer prayers.

Some women are totally confusing the issue of equality. What are they looking equality in? Women cannot be imam of men, period. Has nothing to do with equality, has a lot to do with Allah Subana Tallah's wisdom. Women have more rights than men. Men are never excused from prayer or fast, Allah has blessed you with that excuse. Stop creating Fitna and mixing the issue of equality and gender. 

  �
 

by courtesy & � 2005 Ahmed Rehab

Here one comment form a man name Rock:

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I just read an article on CNN dealing with this issue. I stopped taking it seriously once I read that the woman that led the mixed-gender prayer has a book being published soon. I should have known. Is there no shame anymore in this country? Hey, the fastest way to put down the revolutionary fist is to put a check in it. Sad. I'm not muslim but I fully understand the dynamics of this entire situation. Being an African-American male, I've seen the U.S. government urge African-American women, for generations, to be "independent" and question why the men should be the leaders of the family. Hence, why our community is in such sad state. The strategies are still the same, just a different playing field . When I see a woman president of the U.S. then maybe I'll think differently but even then I'll have my doubts. It should be no surprise that "women's lib" gets major press throughout Islamic countries at this point. Wars are fought on many fronts. Though Islam may not be for me, I do see the order in it and have the utmost respect for the Prophet Muhammad* (pbuh). Where there is no order, there is chaos. I pray this woman wakes up and repents because she may be setting an example that will prove to be the downfall of the entire Islamic community. If she feels so strong about this issue then maybe she should come up with her own religion that allows such actions or find another one that does. Lastly, I question the intention of any so-called spiritual event where the U.S. media is called in to cover it.

Rock

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Assalamu alaikum.

With regard to this issue, i just pray that ALL Muslims will be guided to the right path. Allah (SWT) gave us the way of life that we should follow and practice and we should stick to that in every possible way we can. There are things we think are good for us, but Allah (SWT) knows best. We are Muslims because we are to submit to the Will of Allah (SWT)... and it may be good or not (based on our own view), we have to accept it wholeheartedly as a believer.

Zai

The Samaritan/English Vocabulary

Ar-Aramic Term, He-Ancient Hebrew Term, Ara-Arabic Term

Abisha Scroll: The first five books (Pentateuch) of Moses written by the great grandson of Aaron, the brother of Moses son of Amram. See the web page called the Abisha Scroll.

Ablutions: Cleansing ones self with water (order: hands, mouth, nose, face, ears, right and left legs) while reciting verses Lev. 15:31, Deut. 28:8, Gen 2:7, Ex. 15:26, and 40:31-32. Ablutions are performed before prayers, after a women's monthly period and childbirth, by males after sex and after touching a corpse.

can we or should we trust the hadith

The quran said about ablution:O ye who believe!when you prepare for prayer,wash your face,and your hands,rub your head

and your feet to the ankles.

And you hadiths teach the ablution just like the SAMARITAN

Sisters

It sad to see that arabic traditions are becoming the word of Allah

Islam is UNIVERSAL

Assalam Aliekom,

it is a known fact that-

There is not a single sahih hadith or Quranic ayah that accepts women-led Friday prayer.

------->If a msulim wants to do something worship-related in Islam, he must find proof to do it or it is simply bidah(innovation)

------->If a muslim wants to do something not worship-related, he msut find a proof against it, or it is okay

This principle is one of the most basic things in islam

If muslims do not follow the Quran and sunnah what are muslims to follow? the opinions of so and so imam who feel that even the hadith and Quran is wrong.

One who does not accept even his creator's words is a hyprocrite.

Abdullah ibn Umar(R) did not talk to his son his whole life because of of one incident.

• Abdullah ibn Umar(R)'s son was one of the great sheikh of that time.
• Abdullah ibn Umar(R) once told his son a hadith of the Prophet Muhammad and his son commented on that it could not be possible. After that incident, Abdullah ibn Umar(R) did not talk to his son his whole life because he rejected one small hadith.

Do not confuse ISlamic tradition and arabic traditions

two very important ISLAMIC traditions :a)HOW TO MAKE THE PRAYER

                                                           b)THE EID PAYER

Why we suppose to follow arabic traditions their hadiths,their

scholars,their opinions,do they give good example to the world?

No? they do not

A female Islamic law professor condemned the act as apostasy, explaining that a woman's body "stirs desire" in men. Some suggested the event was a U.S. conspiracy to mold traditional Islam into a secular American religion.

this is from a news paper in Egypt and I personnaly think that a real shame ,the arguement are realy so stupid and even like this one an

offence for women!

Dear All,

Assalamu Alaikum,

What was done by Sister Amina - was not right because it goes against all islamic principles. If Allah wanted female messengers He would have sent them, but all he sent were men. It is not that Islam is against women, they are not capable of doing what man can do, as men were not created to give birth.

I think this action of her's was needed to move us closer to the day of Judgement and it is all part of life. I agree with many of you here in the forum, we have bigger problems than this. We have our own personal problems of not being pious and humble enough. Amina and others (same as her) are not worth of loosing our time to discuss about their courses of action. May Allah SWT forgive them, and help them win over their ego and satan who mischief them to things as the one done by Amina and her followers.

May Allah swt give us all (mankind) health and peace with our families, friends and enemies.

Regards,

Orhan

It is simple, those women who want to lead prayers, pray along or in front of men want to become MEN. And those men who want to be lead by, pray along or behind women want to become WOMEN.

The prophet said "Allah curses among the men who immitate women and curses among women who immitate men"

So the only thing we can do as Muslims is "CURSE THEM".

By the way this is poor soul is not the first one to do it in the states. In the 80's, Rashad Khalifa used to appoint his female secretary to lead the prayers in his TEMPLE.

abdnur

I think sis Mariam Abdullah has an important point. Should we follow Allah and His messanger or should we follow men (Arabic culture) for the true guidance? On the other hand, grievences of muslim females must be true in their own accord, but does it warrant to challange this particular "established' practice to solve these grievences? That is to say, if the solution suggested by sis Amina, is the key to the problems the muslim females are facing in specific, and the Muslim umma, in general? I think they are totally unrelated, espcially in the west. After reading the news media, the circumstances under which this prayer was held, warrants an immediate dissimination of policy of tolerance on the part of every one. The way the threats were given and even the type of threats, are troublesome. This is where true Islam must be represented. At this moment of time the whole world's eyes are towards this community as to how they resolve their differences. Is it solved or tackeled through scholarly educated dialogue or through means of medival culture? Even some of the comments on this forum are disturbing as they don't reflect to form a civilized forum. In the end, in order to make this forum more meaningful, it would be prudent by everyone to bring forward their comments that are supported by evidence from the authentic sources and not from their "established" cultures as sis Mariam as already pointed out. Jazak Allah. By the way, sis Mariam has not forwarded direct evidence to support her point except by indirectly making a point towards this direction.

To Sarah Eltantawi,

It is really sad that you see the women in Islam are not free because they sit behind the men. We are very free, this has nothing to do with freedom of women but with respect for eachother and modesty that Allah wants from us. This is the beauty in Islam. And let me tell you. I am from the Netherlans and my whole family is cristian so I am used to a lot of freedoms and know what you mean. But you see it so wrong, I am married to an Egyptian man and we live a good life together with our children and I am very happy to be muslim and I feel great sitting with the women behind the men. It feels so so comfortable and so right to me. This is the way Allah wants us to pray so we have to obey, we are not creating a new rule or a new quran are we. That would be the day, a day that Insha'allah will never come because if you would really understand your religion you would never write the way you did! Sincerely Madaleine Daif

Assalamu alaikum:

Frankly I'm not surprised at the attitude of Sarah Eltantawi.  Either she has a hidden agenda or is simply ignorant of the role of a true Muslim/Muslima.  Stupid statements like tell us where you stand, stop cowering, etc. are typical of the Ann Coulter school of writing.

For all those applauding the advent of a woman imam (question here is she an imam with the appropriate qualifications or a self appointed one and that too one with a hidden agenda), go read and ponder Sura Azhab verses 56-58.  Once the true meaning of these verses hits you, you'll stop applauding. And start fearing ALLAH exactly the way it should be.

Well written Sister ummziba, may you be Blessed for the strength of your Iman.

To sister Sarah Eltantawi,

Insha'Allah you will never cary zamb like this, go back to your self and ask Allah for forgiveness, we will ask Allah to forgive you too. If you understand what prophet Muhamad pbuh said: Koulou bidah dalala and what you agree about is bidah. And koulou bidah dalalah wa koul dalalah fin nar! Try to understand it for yourself while you are alive. May Allah forgive you! Don't play with our Holy Book the Quran!

Madaleine

Dear Sister El-Tantawi

Assalamu Alaykum-

I have watched you on numerous occasions defend Islam, and speak out on behalf of Muslim�s since 9/11 on various news channels. I want to personally thank you for this. You have made us proud.

In regards to the issues with the Ummah, there are numerous problems that afflict Muslims around the world, particularly Muslim Women. Many of these problems have made their way to the USA, from the Muslim World. They need to be addressed, and they need to be discussed. 

I have no objection to the discussion of the role of Women in Islam. I think that this issue should be discussed at all major annual Muslim gatherings in the United States.

Since 9/11, there are those amongst our fellow American citizens, who have used the tragedy to wage their own �holy war� against the very tenets of Islam. You have witnessed this personally as you have engaged some of these people in various live televised arguments and discussion.

Rather than attacking the deviants who committed the 9/11 atrocity, and other atrocities around the globe, they have focused their attention to the actual religion, and have called for eradication of Islam and Muslims, �nuking� Saudi Arabia, occupying the Muslim world, and engaging in the old �divide and conquer� tactic.

Just spend some time on the internet and you will see the insults to Islam, and the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Having been born and raised in America, I can tell you that I have never seen such hatred to any religious group or ethnicity as exists today.

Which makes me wonder, why now? When there are so many issues to discuss, �Why such support for Women led prayers?�  I am an open-minded, American born, Muslim male, and support our Sisters as they struggle against the cultural inequities that have plagued Muslims. Yes, I too am reviled by the fact that our leaders have avoided many issues that need to be addressed in our society.

But, I find it disgusting that the proponents of Women led prayers, are not relying on the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet (PBUH) to make their argument. On what basis do you believe that Women are allowed to lead prayers?  Do you think that the Women of today�s Ummah are any more privileged than Khadija, Aisha, Fatima, the wives of the 4 first Caliphs, the wives of Hassan and Hussein (RAA)?

There have been numerous Women who have done wondrous things for Islam:

http://www.iecrcna.org/famousmuslimwomen_files/frame.htm#slide0016.htm - http://www.iecrcna.org/famousmuslimwomen_files/frame.htm#sli de0016.htm

yet, none have engaged the controversial topic of Women led prayers.  Please, leave out the emotional, histrionic, rantings such as you will no longer be sent to the �dungeons of the Mosque�. There are issues that need to be addressed, to set the record straight, to correct the cultural influences that have distorted Islam. But, you seem to argue that if someone disagrees with you than they are wrong, and misogynistic.

You and Professor Wadud and Ahmed Nassef and others have raised the issue of Women led prayers. Now the �Burden of Proof� is upon you. Either put-up or shut-up.

Please, do not try to encourage people to support your whims and discourage people who follow the whims of other. Even if the Sheikhs and Ulema are wrong in their reasoning, or arguments, if the truth is reached then so be it. Just because you may be more eloquent in your presentation, or have a better command of the English language, it does not make you right. Just because OJ Simpson was acquitted because he had the most dazzling and articulate lawyers, does not mean that he did not kill his ex-wife.

I assume that most Muslims of intellect are not following Islam blindly, and you should not assume that any lay person can interpret Islam on their own. There are and there has always been people who make the study of Islam and Islamic jurisprudence their vocation. I agree that some of them are corrupted, and some of them are puppets of the Middle Eastern regimes, and that we need to �clean house�, but most people who have spent their lives studying Islam who are not puppets do not agree with your viewpoint.

Muslims appreciate all that you have done, and Insha Allah we will continue to see you do wonderful things for Muslims in America. But, if you are going to argue a point, then do so on a rational and well thought out, and well researched basis. Leave the emotional baggage aside.

When Ibn-Taymiah fought against the leading Ulema of his time, he did so eloquently, and using the Quran and Sunnah as his guide. His major problem was that his attacks against the Ulema were harsh and personal, and thus he was not able to get his point across they way he intended.  You should learn from this: use the Quran and Sunnah as your guide, and do not make personal attacks (like the word cojones). You are speaking like the Cowboy Bush did when he said that he was going to �smoke out the terrorists�.

If you do not agree with the Quran and Sunnah�then say it. If you have a viewpoint that differs from others, based on the Quran and Sunnah, then argue it. But, do not argue for raise an issue that you strongly believe in, but has no support. Look at Dr Sidiqi�s article and if you disagree, at least disagree on the the facts that he has provided, and support your argument with facts that support your viewpoint.

Based on what I have read from this discussion on this website and others, your claims that it is permissible for a Woman to lead a mixed congregation is erroneous. It is not based on fact or any premise in the 1400 years of Islam, and thus I tend to agree with those who say it is an innovation. One may argue, and I have seen this argument in the current discussion that the Internet is an innovation, because the Prophet (PBUH) never used the internet. Well, women who were knowledgeable and capable of leading mixed congregation did in fact live during the time of the Prophet (PBUH) and the Sahaba, so a learned Muslim Woman is not an innovation.

 I ask you this in all sincerity, and Allah is my witness.

Insha Allah you will read this message and Insha Allah you will reply.

AA

Bismillah,

Thank you for posting the pictures.  I had never seen her before.

As one American Muslimah, I feel pleased to hear of Muslimah leaders.  The Sheikh's I have consulted have not helped any of my situations over many years.  This is because they are mostly concerned with having someone like me being patient with difficult situations and conforming to the status quo rather than resolving them.  I apreciate their lessons in patience.  But they did not advocate any action or support it with any bravery.  They always offered words, but gave no personal action to support those words.  I have found this to be true with many of my Muslimah sisters.

Maybe a Muslimah leader will be brave and teach others like herself to help women.  Either people are for or against her action, but I am just glad to know that she is alive, and I hope that she is sincere and not just looking for publicity for her book as the non-Muslim Rock suggested.

I am responding especially because people are saying this is drawing attention from important women's issues.  I am a Muslimah and my issues and my sisters' in Islaam's issues over the years have been important.  Since the tradtional community indeed failed and are currently failing my family and many families that I know of, this woman gives me hope that by leading in this way, she will lead and encourage others to lead on all of our important Muslimah issues.

On point, of course I disagree with praying beside men.  It is uncomfortable and invades my privacy.  I can understand why some people feel demeanded by being told to "pray in the back" like it's the back of the bus.  But if it seems symbolic this way, from my knowledge, it is not intended to be that way.  It is just a way to separate men and women and give us more opportunity in prayer to concentrate on the salat.

I think of the fact that Allah, SWT is neither male nor female.  This is so, so important to our faith, yet we refer to Allah SWT as him.  This is a limit of language.  Allah, SWT cannot be it, for that would be undignified.  But it is this way in the Holy Quran, because Allah SWT made this decision.  So Allah, SWT is still neither male nor female, and men and women are still equal before Allah SWT based on our piety, even though one prays in front and the other in back.  This separation is logistically based, not at all concerned with status in Deen.

As for a woman leading prayer, I would rather a pious woman lead than an impious man.  But in a prayer so large based in New York, you couldnt find a pious man???  In the future, sister, I believe that it would be better to follow the brother's advice who said to make speeches and du'a which are encouraged for you to do and won't cause unneccessary division as your current action, ISA.

Salamu Alaykum

As the song goes "One thing leads to another"

The speaker at that gathering refered to ALLAH as He, It and She during her speach.

Chistians can say muslims now believe in trinity (3 in 1).

That was not a Jummuah Salat it was a circuis, a jerry springer show.

They said, they observed a traditional "MECCAN" format during the ceremony, men to one side and women to the other, with couples in between (holding hands!!!). I don't see much LIBERATION, from the BACK of the mosque, now shoved to the SIDE.

What happened to EQUALITY? Be what you want and where you want?.

In a traditional Jummuah (after the prayer), don't you greet, sake hands, huge and kiss your fellow muslims, those you know and those you don't?

How many of those attending were on their menstrual cycles. They preregistered to attend, they could not miss it, could they? will they attend every friday?

Attendance was by "invitation only", sorry fellows you can not pray jummuah we are "sold out".

How many ICONS did they pray to? The virgin Mary? the holy saints?

I think their next step is to have new version of the quran with IT/SHE/HE and remove verses that are "anti-US",....,etc..

You see, Satan does not try to get YOU to follow him into hell in ONE ACT/STEP. No! he is too clever and patient. He leeds YOU step by step, little by little, a foot here a foot there until YOU find yourself cought in his web. Are YOU willing to cut his strings and FREE yourself . Turn to YOUR creator, surely HE is oft-forgiving.

If we truly want to assert "Muslim Woman's right", then we should of came to the help of our young french muslim girls. Those who were denied their God given right of dignity and respect, the right to be treated like any other human being. Where were WE? to let the weekest among us, our children, to be trampeled on? dehumanized? demoralized? stripped of their identity? having  little girls shave their heads to get an education? denying little muslim girls an education? who is the real TALEBAN?

The prothet said "Oh Allah, I have convey YOUR message to THEM, Oh Allah, be witness to this".

HAVE WE CONVEYED or CONFUSED ISLAM to THEM??

Oh Allah forgive them, for they know not.

abdnur 

Assalamu alaikum:

I'm amazed at the way these deviants are twisting the truth to suit their unholy goals.

For example, we are told about the dungeons where women are made to pray while men take over the main part of the Masjid.

Go to any of the following Masjids and see for yourself if the women are in dungeons or not.  ISCJ Monmouth County NJ, MCMC Piscataway NJ, ICSJ Palmyra NJ, ICMC Lawrenceville NJ, IIS East Windsor NJ, Darul Hijrah Falls Church VA...I could go on and on.

The truth is these self serving women want to show they are liberated enough to challenge men. I guess the next step would be for them to introduce music within the prayers itself.  This will possibly be followed by the people gyrating to the music as they throw their arms up in the air.

After destroying the Christian religion, these same perverts are out to get Islam to change. 

The MO when dealing with the Christian faith was simple.  Start with the little things like getting rid of the hat and veil, then allow short dresses and sleeveless dresses, make Friday worship the equivalent of Sunday worship just so people can enjoy the weekend without having missed their obligations, make prayers in English instead of Latin, eventually ask why women cannot lead the prayers and finally have churches run by female clergy.  The whole vicious cycle that has led to the destruction of the family as it was once known.

Perverts need a medium or a courier and who better than Amina Wadud and her band of merry women.

ALLAH's Curses be on those who cause Fitnah amongst HIS people.

There are so many issues being evoked here, besides it being a womens led Friday prayer. 

The other issues being insecurity, powerlessness, and racism.  I think the main taboo here is that this is an educated African-American Muslim Woman.  The things being hated most are the African-Woman-American.

For many self-hating colonized immigrants, they internally can not accept the fact that there are African-American, people of color like them, who are educated in Islam here in America.  In fact, educated BETTER in Islam than them and who practice it sincerely better than them.  But bringing their caste systems and racism to America, they do not respect African-American, even African American Muslims at all.  No matter how much they deny it, the truth comes out should their daughters or sons ever want to marry one.  Then culture will be used as the racist reason why they would not let two Muslims marry based on the issue of different races...which they will carry the flag of different cultures.

Before I delve into that, lets just take it if this was a WHITE muslim convert, a sanctioned Ingrid Mattson who lead the prayer.  There would be less animosity because she is a Muslim female who is White.  That is to be admired, married with, etc.  She would receive less resistance than a African-American or an Immigrant sister.  Is this a self-hating community or what?  Believe me, there would have been major press releases announcing the fact being sent out by our Muslim organizations.

But it took an educated African-American Muslim sister to bring us back to true Islam.  And that is an insult that many immigrants, and even some arrogant African-American brothers can not accept.

Now let me delve into the African-American and even immigrant brothers.  When you are disenfrancized and powerless, who do you seek to make you feel more strong to and powerful?  Your women!  But instead of partnering with us to make a stronger family and community, you oppress us and use and hide us for your personal benefit.  Your ego!  Which is constantly discussed about in the Quran.  The Rasul (saw) married an older, richer woman in Khadijah and he LOVED her and respected her and she guided him and together they were strong.

But in todays Muslim community we are back in Jahiliyah days in how we oppress our women. Put them out to pasture to work for you or your inlaws and use them up and not respect them.  Not all brothers do this, but quite a few of the arrogant ones do.  Why?  Because their lack of self-esteem, their insecurities.  Find help brothers to be secure.  If not from therapy, then from TRUE reflection of the Quran so that you can respect your hard working sisters and unite with them.

And back to the core issue; the same with race.  The mother next to the mother of the Rasul (saw) was a Black woman.  Umm Ayman.  He revered her and respected her.  Yet, look at the Ummah today.  You hate black women.  You only use them as a means to your ends.  Accept the reality of what made you hate African-Americans so much.  Is it because it makes you feel closer to White Priviledge?  Do you think the Rasul (saw) would condone it?  And African-American Brothers, descendants of Bilal , the first to call the Adhan to prayer, do you think it is right to oppress your African-American sisters in order to falsely pump up your chests and egos?

It is a sad state the community is in.  It is a state of DENIAL.  And until we are REALLY honest with our racisms and dysfunctions, only can we began to truly, truly, heal....A positive change is needed.

Sis Ummah wrote: I think the main taboo here is that this is an educated African-American Muslim Woman.  The things being hated most are the African-Woman-American.

I think most  of us (at least my self) did not know that Dr. Wadud is African American woman, we knew it after Rami posted her photos. Even before Rami's post, there have been many many posts in this forum and in IslamiCity article's page, so your claim that the denial due to the fact that she is African American woman is not valid at all.

Es_Selam'un Aleykum...

 First of all,i see that we have more friends in the board then before,this should be an barakah.I welcome to you all...

 Coming to the issue,i have short words to tell...a person should know what she believes;also a person should know what she does not believe.I call persons for choosing their ways;please!,if you want to be an khafir or if you don't believe this religion then be brave and be full khafir,be brave khafirs...also i call muslims for knowing what we believe in the name of Allah.If we want to be a muslim;then we should be the full muslims...please select the way,black or white?;no place to grey like her face....

Suleyman wrote: If we want to be a muslim;then we should be the full muslims...please select the way,black or white?;no place to grey like her face....

What do you mean by "Grey like her face.."  Are you an racist and from Turkey at that?

In psychological terms, people who only think in terms of black or white and can not agree to disagree or see grey, are people who have mental problems.  That is just plain what it is...a mental problem.  You practice how you want to and you should let others practice how they want and learn to be TOLERANT.  It is the extremists who are hurting this religion, but more than that, it is the INTOLERANT people who are hurting the religion the most.

Learn diversity of thought.  And more than tolerance, learn ACCEPTANCE!!!!!

salam

this reply is for Sarah eltantawi,,u stated "I demand to know where the Muslim women's League stands on this issue. I demand to know where the Muslim Public Affairs Council, and the Council on American-Islamic Relations stands on this issue. I demand to know where ISNA stands on this issue."

  U know exactly where everyone stands,,u know exactly what most muslims think, but u do not care,,so why are u demanding to know? its not like ur gonna stop what u r doing if they disagree with u.

U have no clue about islam,,why dont u make up ur own religion and leave islam? since u dont wanna be part of it anyway? why bother calling urself a muslim? call urself progressives of america.  Stop identifying urself with us muslims. U  have no respect for quran or the holy prophet and his traditions..so u are an apostate and so is ur fake imam Amina Wadud. I do not think ur prayers behind her will be accepted,but Allah knows best.

Sis Ummah-

Brother Amir Abdel-Malik of Northern California Area  (African American Muslim) once gave a speech in which he stated that some of the women of america,  dealt with the sexism in our society and the abuse of women as sexual objects, by doing the exact same thing...making men sexual objects and thought that womens liberation was going to Chippendales male strip clubs, and having magazines like playgirl.

He said that:

African-Americans did the same with the creation of the Nation of Islam--by reacting to the God is white non--sence and saying white men are superior---african americans response in the Nation-was to say that God was black, and that whites were the Devil.

In my opinion-Sister Wadud has-"overcompensated" for the real problems that face the Uummah in terms of gender discrimination, and went Overboard. 

Racism is another issue and please dont use the "race card" here.

AA-

ibn muslim wrote: In my opinion-Sister Wadud has-"overcompensated" for the real problems that face the Uummah in terms of gender discrimination, and went Overboard.  Racism is another issue and please dont use the "race card" here. AA-

So our you now "overcompensating" for the real problem of race in the Ummah by denying it here and using the term "race card?"

Gender and racism is the problem here.  But the biggest problem is DENIAL.

This is for Sister Ummah,

Sister, I think you know this isn't a racist issue.  I'm black and didnt' know the sister was until someone posted pictures.  We are talking islamic tradition and the same reaction would have been given it she was nonblack.  Secondly, why would men feel insecure if she gave the khutbah?  SHE and yourself are saying this right?  You see, anytime a women does what a man normally does and a man opens and disagree with a point she makes (as he does with other men) women say he is insecure.  This is a cop out.  She is free in America to do as she wills.  I wouldn't attend her jumah.  Not because she is black(that should be a reason to support her..no?) but because the deen is preserved statically in this area (although islam is dynamic) and this is innovation.  Someone raised a good point concerning muslim female students in France standing up to the France government to keep wearing hijab.  I would think the sister would throw her weight behind and issue such as that. 

 Third, I'm muslim strong sister, I don't have to be accepted by White, nonmuslim Blacks, Muslims or anyone else.  Looking for acceptance went out in the 60's with MLKing Jr.  I study the arabic, the different branches of thought, Shia islam, sunna, while still remaining competition in the IT industry and a family man.  Being a descendant of slaves and having knowledge of Allah makes a brother deal with this soceity head on!! I'm talking over 20 years of marriage, twins in college and STILL go to jumah as an African American, dredlocked, leather jacket wearing muslim.  I'm who I am and dont care you doesn't like it; therefore I dont have burden of "being accepted" or lean heavily on "race".  Perhaps if you view a muslim matrimonial website, you'll see many "foriegn" muslim dont rely on "race" as well. 

Fourth,  since when do black women allow themselves to be marginalized, mistreated and disrespected by black men?  Muslim or not.  When?  Sure there are some brothers who misunderstand the application of islam especially in America but most have a good grasp on it.  We elevate and respect our women IF they respect us as men.  Most don't so please don't put us into the same category as some irresponsible nonmuslims.  We all know there are blessed and wise believing sisters and I'd protect and defend them.   However, for the Khutbah, I'm following the over 1400 years of tradition.  Now, do you have a problem with that?

CORRECTION: I meant to say "I don't care WHO doesn't like it."  Not "I dont care YOU don't like it."

..."The lack of respect towards this sister INDEED has to do with the fact that she is BOTH a woman and African-American.  Your attempt to deny that reality is baseless. "

  Sister Ummah, most certainly there are some who may not respect Dr. Wudud, but generally speaking, I believe most simply disagree with her fiqh position.  That includes women, African-Americans, and immigrants.  Again, in my estimation, this is not a gender or race based issue, but of a very strange fiqh position that Dr. Wudud has articulated.

  I would suggest that your insistence at playing the "race card" may only be a projection of your personal disposition.  Remember, African Americans can also be racist.

qpeace1 wrote: We elevate and respect our women IF they respect us as men.  Most don't so please don't put us into the same category as some irresponsible nonmuslims.  We all know there are blessed and wise believing sisters and I'd protect and defend them.   However, for the Khutbah, I'm following the over 1400 years of tradition.  Now, do you have a problem with that?

Your definition of respect may be different from the Islamic definition of respect.  For example you say IF they respect us as men.  And what if they don't?  Do you beat them or worse?

There are alot of African-American brothers saying they are following 1400 years of tradition.  Such as having 4 wives here in the U.S. 1 who is legally sanctioned and legitimate by US laws and 3 who are illegal.  And of the 4 women, many are not even being supported as the Quran states.  You can have 4 wives if you can provide for them legally.  But most are being provided for by the state with welfare and food stamps. 

I don't know your situation brother, so please do not take personally.  But I do know of many African-American Muslim men, as well as immigrant men, who brind up the 1400 years of tradition and are just using it as an excuse.  You can not pick and choose the sunnah.

For all the brothers speaking of 1400 years of tradition, I have yet to see any men in their 20's searching for a woman in her 40's.  After all, wasn't that the way of the Rasul (saw) with Khadijah?

Sis Ummah-

So Prof Wadud-actually made things worse. Her actions, and the actions of her supporters (as one can tell by reading the posts), are basically emotional outlets for what they perceive as being treated as inferior Muslims compared to their Male counterparts.

I see much more discrimination from the Media today towards Muslim (men and women) than ever before. Yet, where is Prof Wadud, in the fight against the way muslims are portrayed in TV and film and on the news? I do not see her fighting for Muslims who face discrimination at the workplace because they want to pray or wear hijab.

She is not meeting congressmen and congresswomen or senators, or mayors and fighting for our civil rights.

No-she wants to fight for Women led prayers, and gay rights.....things that really are not the most important issues facing muslims post 9/11. Things that the great majority of Muslims really do not want to deal with.

You beleive in democracy, well the majority has spoken. yes women face discrimination, and yes their is racism, but that does not mean that women led prayers is supproted by the Sunnah, or that we need a new American Madhab.

We have suffered so much after 9/11-and the situation of women in Islam is getting better in America , based on the representation of women in groups like CAIR, MPAC, and hundreds of Masajid in the country---yes there is still a lot of problems and inequalities, and yes still some racism, but I think that there have been great successes-there is improvement.

But-Prof Wadud wants to use the opportunity to target Muslims, while Muslims are already being targetted. While are masajid are being targetted, people being deported, and our charities being closed, and our rights being taken away.

They are even talking about internment camps for Muslims if God-Forbid another 9/11 happens.

Please---relax, and think with your head. Prioritize, and think....Look at the arguments of the Wadud supporters--The Prophet (PBUH) is not their concern---the Sunnah is not their concern. That in itself should help you determine what is right and what is forbidden.

AA

abuayisha wrote: Remember, African Americans can also be racist.

..and so what is your point?  People with power are those who are the racists primarily.  And when an immigrant is aligning themselves with priviledge and power to oppress African-Americans, they are also racists.

ibn muslim wrote: She is not meeting congressmen and congresswomen or senators, or mayors and fighting for our civil rights.

Why should she fight for our civil rights when our own house is not clean???!!  Our house is dirty and we need to clean up our own internal messes and stop denying them.  Civil Rights is an issue, but basic human rights in our own households and towards our women and people of color is a Allah given issue.  One that our Ummah is denying and refusing to respect.

Sis Ummah-

My house is clean. Perhaps some are more clean than others. Maybe the majority of women who I have interacted with over through various Muslim groups, just are not as intelligent as you. Maybe they are naieve, and their minds are brainwashed, and only you and a few "chosen" people have seen the light.

I think not sister. Let us not be drama queens or dram kings. There are problems. There is no denial of that. But, based on what the majority of American Muslims feel (both men and women) is that Prof Wadud is out of line with the Sunnah.

Her actions have nothing to do with "reform" as they have to do with "innovation"--there is a big difference between the too.

Compensation for what is right and permissable in Islam-differs from what is wrong, and forbidden---and is a result of overcompensation.

AA

To Ibn Muslim,

I don't think anyone can say their house is clean with the state of the Ummah today.  How can you state that time needs to be spent arguing for civil rights when we can't respect women and people of color in Islam?

No one in Congress can fight for a clearly divided and polarized community that can not accept any difference in opinion.

Patient "Heal Thyself!"

Sis-Q Peace-

malcolm x once said that a nation can be judged by a morality of its women (if the woman are good the nation is good, etc).

the muslim nation (ummah) could use a lot more sisters like you.

AA

Sis Ummah-

Once again-everyone agrees that there are problems-but to the majority of American Muslims, there are priorities-

maybe most Muslim women in America do not feel "exactly" the same way that you feel.

maybe they have loving brothers, fathers, and are treated well at their masajid.

maybe they are happy with their role/or have no confusion in their role in society. their are many successful muslim women in law, medicine and business, who feel more discrimination as women and muslim in society than they do at home.

Not everyone has had your experiences. Maybe your house is dirtier than others-that is all Im saying.

gotta go-

AA

ibn muslim wrote:  Maybe your house is dirtier than others-that is all Im saying. gotta go- AA

I doubt that.  Maybe yours is falsely covered in bleach.

You can not speak for all Muslim women, who clearly do not have a true voice in the community.  They are being oppressed, financially primarily among other ways into being silent.

No, this community is not clean.  And we need to make that a priority as that is our foundation.  And as our foundation is not strong, that is what makes our entire house fall down.

qpeace1 wrote: But also know if a women is bold enough to step to me the wrong way, I'd deal with that too!

So just how would you deal with it?

Please, how would you deal with it, even if she stepped up to you the wrong way, how would you deal with it? 

Would it be Islamic, based on your tone?

It depends.  A womans place is not in the face (face to face) of a man especially her husband.  My wife and I disagree ..so what? But she doesn't disrespect me in the process.  I'm a man worthy of respect (as are all human beings)  So why would you even ask "What is she did this or that?"  See your confrontation angle?  We get along..it's worth it in the end.  They used to SALE black ppl like dogs.  So then, we can't disagree with respect, then apologize and continue our struggle in life together?  Again, you have your world and the people you surround yourself with...I have mine.  Muslims have enough problems...BUT Allah is the Best of Planners

qpeace1 wrote: It depends.  A womans place is not in the face (face to face) of a man especially her husband.  My wife and I disagree ..so what? But she doesn't disrespect me in the process.  I'm a man worthy of respect (as are all human beings)  So why would you even ask "What is she did this or that?"  See your confrontation angle?  We get along..it's worth it in the end.

I am not trying to be confrotational.  But your respect sounds more like ego.  So what if she got in your face, so what if she made you lose what you believe to be respect.  Would she or any other woman be deserving of abuse?  I don't think so.

There is such thing as protecting yourself should she or any sister attempted to physically hurt you.  That is just self-defense.  But when a sister "disrespects" you, and that is depending on your definition of respect, you can react incorrectly.  Because the only thing that could be hurt is your pride i.e. ego.  And that is still no reason to hit a woman.

InshaAllah you are not a brother like that.  I don't think so.  But when are brothers are so ruled by egos and false pride and respect, they can begin to think they have the priviledge to put a woman in her place.  Only Allah is the punisher.

Salam everyone,

I can see the anger in your words more than your thoughts. Kindly don't lose your patience. This is exactly what I cautioned you in my previous post. Be united through healthy critism and tolerate even you felt offended. This is true Islam. Of course no one becomes Kafir by offering combined prayer lead by Women. The true judgement on any matter of faith is with Allah and Allah alone. However, personally speaking I have not yet heard any arguments (logical or illogical) to support this new formation of offering prayer. Is there any one who can enlighten me on this. Probably, sis Ummah can take me to that direction (a short but thoroughly supported text through evidence shall be highly appreciated). Cheers!

I am sure there are many arguments in support for and against the formation.  I am not here to say whether it is an innovation or not.

What I am pointing out is the anger at Sr. Amina which I know to be more of racism and intolerance more than anything.

One can say it is an innovation when our muslim organizations invite non-Muslims to attend our Mosques and stand over us to observe us in prayer.  One can say it is an innovation when ISNA partnered with a racist group in Indiana.  Once can agree with or disagree with it.

There will always be differences of opinion and thought.  The Sahaba discussed many different issues.  But todays Muslims are extreme in their thoughts and refuse to see any grey areas, to agree to disagree and still respect and love one another as Muslims.  There is no moderation.  Sr. Amina may be on one extreme and a Fundamentalist on the other end.  But they are all Muslim still the same.  And they have a right to their opinion as Allah (swt) is the ultimate judge.

But I see too much of this, its my way or the highway talk in our community.  It is tearing us apart.  A Ummah of rules that actually follows none.  Oppression of women, racism, abuse, etc. All being fed by a healthy dose of denial.

If we could all just get along.  Whether we are Sunna or Shia or Black or Arab, then we would be practicing our religion.  It is not whether a woman leads us in prayer.  It is whether we lead ourselves by our examples of tolerance, kindness and respect for one another and our differences of opinion and most of all interpretation.

qpeace1 wrote: Lastly, I didn't revert to islam to let people stand toe to toe, face to face with me to show I'm a "good" muslim who practices "tolerance" and "to get along".  So please save it when it comes to suggesting how I should defend myself or my self respect.  "Men are the Protectors and Maintainers of women"  The Quran  Does this verse NOT mean what is says? Is it open to interpretation?  Is it clear or Unclear?

So what kind of revert are you?  One being lead by the Quran or one being led by culture?

Are you steal in the idealistic phase where you believe that everything is perfect among Muslims?

I have been to plenty Mosques and have seen different from the East to the West coast.  But most of all I have been in the communities and homes to see and discuss the racism and cultural baggage up close and personal.

We do not all practice what is preached in Islam.  If so then men would be maintaining and protecting their women, but many are not.  Many are the users and abusers of their women.  Is that a matter of intepretation or practice?

Learn that Islam is not intolerant.  That is the best gift you can give yourself as a revert Muslim.

I respect you too brother. But since you may not be sitting with the sisters you have not seen what I have seen.  You have not witnessed the sisters I have witnesed being abused and left to support 7 children alone.  Maybe you have not seen them in the shelters because in the battered womens shelters men are not allowed.  Most battered Muslim women hide this fact and take shelter within their families or hide it within their households.  What you have not seen does not mean it doesn't exist.  Like the saying goes; if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, is there no sound.  What do you think?  Because it was not witnessed personally by you, it does not mean it is happening all over everyday.  Events right here in America that would make you cry.

Regarding Muslims countries that have a women leader, fine.  I am proud.  But how many?  Especially since Islam liberated women.  We should be ashamed at far back we have actually went.

Also regarding islam not being so tolerant of many things,  did you ever hear of the hadith of the Bedouin who urinated on the floor in the masjid?  Had it been today, intolerant Muslims would probably beat him and skin him alive on the spot.  There would be urine mixed with his blood.  But the Rasul (Saw) was so accepting of this bedouin that he simply told the people to put water on it.  He knew of the bedouins situation and knew that making a scene of it was not how you called people to Islam.  Just put water on it.

But look at the intolerant Muslims of today.  They are not putting water on it.  They are putting the flames of fire on anything they do not agree with.  I am sure it is not Islamic in those days or today to urinate on the Masjid floor.  But look at the lovely character of the Rasul (saw) in how he dealt with it. He calls you to Islam with his gentleness.  The intolerant Muslims of today do not call anyone to Islam.  Rather they push many, many people away.

Bro qpeace1 and Sis Ummah,

I really apprciate the way now the discussion is going on. Keep it up. One little point from my side would be to make our talk more logical through authentic evidence/references that appeals to the common wisdom and logic rather than mere statements with baseless accusations. Tolerance doesn't mean acceptance of injustice but peaceful but persistant communication of one's point of view across the board. Other than this, I am still looking for some posting on this forum that would help me look at the logical arguments in support and against the mixed prayer/women leading prayer event. Cheers!

Assu,

So was the Rasul (saw) American when he did something weird in his time in promoting Islam???  Think about it... 

Who are you to say she should Amina Wadud and Progressives be condemned heftily?  Allah (swt) is the only Judge and Punisher? Since when did so many Muslims begin to take this divine task onto themselves? 

Is it against Islam for women to lead the prayer in congregation in the mosque and be an Imam?  Is it against Islam for women to have their own congregation for prayer (all women, no men)?

Please give reasons and proof provided by Quran or Sunnah.  I have not been able to find any.

�Who are you to say she should Amina Wadud and Progressives be condemned heftily?  Allah (swt) is the only Judge and Punisher? Since when did so many Muslims begin to take this divine task onto themselves? �

 Allah the Most High said: Let there be among you a community who enjoin good and forbid evil; it is they that shall be successful, [3:104] and: You are the best community that has ever been brought forth for mankind: you enjoin good and forbid evil, and you believe in God, [3:110] and: Those who repent, those who worship, those who praise, those who persevere, those who bow down, those who prostrate, and those who enjoin good and forbid evil, [9:112] and: Those of the Israelites who were unbelievers have already been cursed on the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary, for they were disobedient, and transgressed. They did not forbid one another from committing the evil that they wrought. What they used to do was foul indeed. [5:79] The Qur'an is full of passages, which treat of this subject.

Muslim relates on the authority of Abu Sa`id (radhiallahu `anhu) that the Prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam said, "Whoever sees something evil should change it with his hand. If he cannot, then with his tongue; and if he cannot do even that, then in his heart. That is the weakest degree of faith."

He also relates on the authority of Ibn Mas`ud that the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, "There was not a single Prophet among those who were sent before me who did not have apostles and companions and followed his Sunna and obeyed his commands. But afterwards other generations came whose words belied their deeds, and whose deeds were not in accordance with what they commanded others to do. Whoever struggles against the with his hand is a believer. Whoever struggles against them with his tongue is a believer. And whoever struggles against them with his heart is a believer. But when none of these things are done, then not a single mustard's seed weight of faith is present."

Two hadith need to be discussed here, one because it is an explicit statement regarding this question and another because it is the hadith that is often quoted to substantiate the claim that women can lead such prayers.

There is a hadith recorded by ibn Maajah which is very explicit on this particular question. However, there is no question that this hadith is weak and cannot be used as evidence in Islamic Law. The hadith is presented here in order for it to be known that it is weak and unacceptable as evidence on this question. The hadith as found in ibn Maajah states:

 
�Truly, a woman should not lead a man in prayer, nor a Bedouin an Emigrant, nor an evildoer a believer��

The second hadith is the one most quoted by some contemporary authors on this point. It is often referred to as �the hadith of Umm Waraqah.� This hadith is recorded by Ahmad, al-Haakim in his Mustadrak, ibn al-Jaarood, ibn Khuzaimah, al-Baihaqi in al-Kubra and al-Sughra, Abu Dawood, al-Tabaraani and al-Daaraqutni. Since Sunan Abi Dawood is available in English, his recording of the hadith will be presented here as well as the translation as found in Ahmad Hasan�s translation of Sunan Abu Dawood. Abu Dawood records:

 
 Ahmad Hasan�s translation (vol. 1, pp. 155-156) is as follows:

(591) Umm Waraqah daughter of Nawfal reported: When the Prophet (may peace be upon him) proceeded for the Battle of Badr, I said to him: Apostle of Allah allow me to accompany you in the battle. I shall act as a nurse for your patients. It is possible that Allah might bestow martyrdom on me. He said: Stay at your home. Allah, the Almighty, will bestow martyrdom upon you. The narrator said: Hence she called martyr. She read the Quran. She sought permission from the Prophet (may peace be upon him) to have a mu`adhdhin in her house. He, therefore, permitted her (to do so). She announced that her slave and slave-girl would be free after her death. One night they went to her and strangled her with a sheet of cloth until she died, and they ran away. Next day �Umar announced among the people: Anyone who has knowledge about them, or has seen them, should bring them (to him). �Umar (after their arrest) ordered (to crucify them) and they were crucified. This was the first crucifixion at Medina.

(592) This tradition has also been narrated through a different chain of transmitters by Umm Waraqah daughter of Abd Allah ibn al-Harith. The first version is complete. This version goes: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to visit her at her house. He appointed a mu`adhdhin to call the adhan for her; and he commanded her to lead the inmates of her house of in prayer. �Abd al-Rahman said: I saw her mu`adhdhin who was an old man.

After recording this hadith, the great scholar of hadith ibn Khuzaimah said that it is a �strange sunnah� and he does not know of any other hadith bearing this meaning. Al-Daraqutni is quoted as having made a similar statement. Furthermore, there is no question that the authenticity of this hadith may be questioned. All of the people who recorded it recorded it through al-Waleed ibn Jumai� from Abdul-Rahmaan ibn Khallaad, and there is some doubt concerning both of these narrators. In particular, al-Waleed has to be questioned if he reports something that is not supported by anyone else. Hence, in ibn Hibbaan�s al-Majrooheen (vol. 3, pp. 78-79), it states about him,

 
Al-Waleed ibn Jumai�, a sheikh from the people of Kufah. He narrated from Abdul-Rahmaan ibn Khallaad and people of Kufah. Abdullah ibn Dawood al-Kharabi and the people of Iraq narrated from him. He was from among those people who would solitarily narrate from trustworthy people hadith that would not resemble the hadith of trustworthy narrators. Since this was excessive on his part, one cannot use him as a relied upon source. Al-Hamadaani narrated to us that Amr ibn Ali said to him, �Yahya ibn Saeed would not narrate from al-Waleed ibn Jumai�.�

[It must be noted that some people accept al-Waleed because ibn Hibbaan mentioned him in his other work, al-Thiqaat (Trustworthy Narrators), but this comment by ibn Hibbaan himself makes it clear that he is not acceptable under all circumstances.]

In Taqreeb al-Tahdheeb, ibn Hajar describes Abdul-Rahmaan as being ����� �����, meaning his condition as a narrator of hadith is not established. Hadith of someone of this nature would not be acceptable unless it is supported via another source. (It should though be noted that other scholars had a higher opinion of Abdul-Rahmaan. Although in the recently edited version of Taqreeb, edited by Basheer Maroof and Shuaib al-Arnaaoot, they argue that Abdul-Rahmaan is ����� �����, meaning he is truly identified as a narrator since only one person is known to have narrated from him. This is a state lower than that described by ibn Hajar.)

Without going into any further details of the chains, this author can state that he is not completely convinced as to the authenticity of this hadith. Indeed, it seems that the hadith is weak. However, for the sake of argument it will be assumed that the hadith is hasan. In fact, the hadith scholar Muhammad Naasir al-Deen al-Albaani has graded it hasan in his discussion of the hadith of Sunan Abi Dawood.

This being the only pertinent acceptable hadith, a number of important points can be derived from this hadith�many of which go against the way that this hadith is being applied by a limited number of people today.

Most importantly, this hadith should certainly not be used by feminists as some kind of sign that the Muslim jurists have gotten the true picture of women in Islam wrong for so many centuries. Note what exactly occurred in this hadith: Umm Waraqah asked permission of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to take part in the Battle of Badr. She did not ask permission to take part in the fighting. She only stated to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that she would be able to tend to the ill and wounded. However, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) refused her request. Beyond that, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ordered her to remain in her house, using the imperative form of the verb. (This is similar to the command made in al-Ahzaab 33, which people argue is only meant for the Prophet�s wives but this hadith of Umm Waraqah could be used to further show that it was for Muslim women in general.)

Again, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ordered her to remain in her house and told her to the lead the inhabitants of her house in prayer. The following question must then be asked: How could this hadith possibly be used as evidence that a woman is allowed to lead the congregational prayer in a mosque? If she were to do that, she would be violating the command that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) gave to Umm Waraqah of remaining in her house and, furthermore, it would be deriving something from this hadith that is simply not in the hadith: the permissibility of women leading the prayers outside of their homes in the mosques (a practice, it should be noted, that was never done by any of the pious women of the early generations, including, to the best of what is recorded, Umm Waraqah herself).

Actually, there is nothing explicit in this hadith that Umm Waraqah led males in prayer. The basic ruling concerning males is that they are to pray in the mosque. This was a well-established practice during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and afterwards during the time of the Companions. (There is no need to go into the numerous proofs for that view.) Hence, who would Umm Waraqah be leading in the obligatory prayers? It should have only been females and those males who were too young to be required to go to the mosques. Even her caller to prayer, the old man referred to by the non-Companion Abdul-Rahmaan, may have made the call to prayer for her and then gone to the mosque to prayer. That is not stated in the hadith but it is an acceptable assumption given the command for males to pray in the mosques and how that command was implemented during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

It should also be noted that this incident took place during the time of Badr, before the revelations of soorah al-Noor and soorah al-Ahzaab, which put greater restrictions on the dress and movement of the believing women. Hence, this practice may have existed at one time but was later no longer practiced, as one can find no other evidence for this practice in any other report.

In sum, the absolute most that can be derived from the hadith of Umm Waraqah, if one concludes that it is an acceptable hadith, is that a woman can lead the male members of her household within the confines of her home if she is most qualified to the Imam. At the same time, on the other end of the extreme, the hadith also lends itself to the fact that Muslim women are requested to remain at home and, in general�although there are exceptions to this�they are not even expected to go out for jihad and try to become martyrs. There is nothing, though, in this hadith that would lend itself to the conclusion that it is permissible for women to lead men in prayer in congregational mosques or in the Friday Prayer. Such a conclusion would simply be reading more into the hadith than what the hadith states. Indeed, the hadith is not even explicit that Umm Waraqah would lead adult males of her household in prayer�which must be considered doubtful since such males of that time were known to perform the obligatory prayers in the mosque. And Allah alone knows best.

Has anyone read the book "Muslim Women Warriors" by Prof. Assad Busool?  You can find it online at: http://www.soundvision.com/Shop/pview.asp?Item=4263-004 - http://www.soundvision.com/Shop/pview.asp?Item=4263-004

Tell me how is it that women in the Rasul's (saw) time could do battle and one even be attributed to saving his life, but then be confined to their homes in this time?

There is no dispute among the scholars that one of the conditions of the imaam or leader is that he should be male. Ibn Hazam reported in his book Maraatib al-Ijmaa� that there was scholarly consensus on this point. In the section he says: �Out of all groups of the people of the Qiblah [i.e., all Muslim sects], there is not one that allows the leadership of women.� Al-Qurtubi reported something similar, and al-�Allaamah al-Shanqeeti said, �There is no difference of opinion among the scholars on this point.�

The evidence for this is the general meaning of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): �Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other�� [al-Nisa� 4:34]. It is also clearly indicated by the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah who said that when the Prophet SAW?S (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard that the Persians had appointed the daughter of Chosroes as their queen, he said, �No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper.� (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53).

This is because positions of leadership and government require a person to join men�s gatherings, which is not allowed for women according to sharee�ah because of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): �And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance�� [al-Ahzaab 33:33]. These positions also require perfect wisdom, reason and alertness, and the testimony of a man has been made equal to that of two women, the reason for which Allaah has explained in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): �� so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her�� [al-Baqarah 2:282].

Imaam al-Muwaffaq Ibn Qudaamah said:

�For this reason the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his successors (khulafa�) and those who came after them never appointed a woman to be a judge or a governor of a province, as far as we know. If it were permissible, it should have happened.�

Imaam al-Ghazaali said:

�The position of leader (imaam) could never be given to a woman even if she possessed all the qualities of perfection and self-reliance. How could a woman take the position of leader when she did not have the right to be a judge or a witness under most of the historical governments?�

Imaam al-Baghawi said:

�The scholars agreed that women are not fit to be leaders or judges, because the leader needs to go out to organize jihaad and take care of the Muslims� affairs, and the judge needs to go out to judge between people, but women are �awrah and it is not right for them to go out. Because of their weakness, women are not able to do many things. Women are imperfect, and the positions of leaders and judge are among the most perfect of positions for which only the most perfect of men are qualified.�

Undoubtedly this is proven by reality. People know from experience that only men are fit for leadership, because women by nature are more emotional and more easily swayed by their feelings and compassion. These qualities have been created in women to enable them to carry out their most important duty, which is that of motherhood and nurturing children. Men, on the other hand, are not usually swayed by their emotions as women are. Their way is usually one of logic and deliberation, which form the essence of responsibility and leadership.

With regard to the question of whether a woman may be appointed as a judge, the majority of Maaliki, Shaafa�i and Hanbali scholars say that a woman cannot be appointed as a judge, because of the general meaning of the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah quoted above.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said:

�Ibn al-Teen said: Those who say that a woman cannot be appointed as a judge use the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah as evidence, and this is the view of the majority.�

"�No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper.� (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53)."

My question is, but what if people do decide to appoint a female as their leader? Would it be against Allah's commands or voilations of Prophet's commands? I think this hadith of Abu Bakrah (if this is the only hadith on the subject) is being and has been too streched to fit the purpose of a male dominant society (cultural influence). On the more, as the situation is dramatically changed from the time of Prophet and now, especially in the role definition of a government head, a judge, and the imam, the meanings attributed to the word "leader" in the said hadith may also needs to be carefully examined. No govt. head (president or prime minister) go in war and niether the judge nor even the chief of army staff goes into it. Classic example of this change in role could also be seen in the time of caliphate of Hazrat Umar when the Muslim army was fighting on the borders of syria, Iraq or for that matter Iran, Hazrat Umar was controlling the affairs while he was still in Madina. Definitely needs to hear more on it. Cheers!

I do not have the resources in front of me now, but I do recall that some weak hadith had been attributed later on during a time of a later caliph that worked to removed some of the rights of women.

It may have begun when Aisha (raa) lead the battle that was later called the "Battle of the Camel."  When she was the one in the lead on the camel.  But they would not call it the battle of Aisha but the "Battle of the Camel."  And that if any woman is a leader it would fail.  But this is not true of what Islam dictates in that it liberated women and many were in battle and in this case actually lead battles. 

But since the times of the Sahaba on, Muslims have been in a steady decline regarding the leadership roles of women. 

Quote from abuayisha "It is also clearly indicated by the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah who said that when the Prophet SAW?S (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard that the Persians had appointed the daughter of Chosroes as their queen, he said, �No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper.� (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53)."

abuayisha

Can you please reverify the full reference of the hadith of Abu Bakrah. On my own search, following Hadith is attributed to Abu Bakrah, which doen't seem to say what you have mentioned. Here is the one from my search of Al-Bukhari (highlighted and underlined words are some of the differences between the two):

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 709:

Narrated Abu Bakra:

During the days (of the battle) of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a word I had heard from Allah's Apostle after I had been about to join the Companions of Al-Jamal (i.e. the camel) and fight along with them. When Allah's Apostle was informed that the Persians had crowned the daughter of Khosrau as their ruler, he said, "Such people as ruled by a lady will never be successful."

No one is expected to find a change in the quotations of the hadith, atleast. But, I think, there is a huge difference between "No people..." and "Such people...". or it could be typical of a translational differences from two different sources. Whatever, the case may be, I think, this kind of narration of a hadith has no solid foundation to support the intended purpose, at all. The intentions of its own narrater in his own statment are not unbaised. Cheers!

Here is some more specific criteria that seems more logical and harmonious to the over all meassage of Islam.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/satintro.html -

Bismillah,

I heard there was a woman president or something like that in Pakistan. Go figure.  We need more women leaders.  I am all for women leaders.  This lady in New York is a leader.  Allah, SWT, bless her!!!

Another english translation for the hadist:

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 219:

Narrated Abu Bakra:

During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/bukhari/088.sbt.html#009.088.219 - http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/bukhari/088.sbt.html #009.088.219

I think we have to rever back to the arabic version, so we can clarify which translation is correct.

Sis Ummah wrote: Suleyman wrote: If we want to be a muslim;then we should be the full muslims...please select the way,black or white?;no place to grey like her face.... What do you mean by "Grey like her face.."  Are you an racist and from Turkey at that? In psychological terms, people who only think in terms of black or white and can not agree to disagree or see grey, are people who have mental problems.  That is just plain what it is...a mental problem.  You practice how you want to and you should let others practice how they want and learn to be TOLERANT.  It is the extremists who are hurting this religion, but more than that, it is the INTOLERANT people who are hurting the religion the most. Learn diversity of thought.  And more than tolerance, learn ACCEPTANCE!!!!!

 Es_Selam'un Aleykum Sister Ummah,

 Sister,when you left your oppressed mind inside the whites,i am ready to discuss with you...your negative energy is diverting the issue and i don't want to be diverted....Wa Salaam.

People praying behind an imam are to follow him in the movements of prayer�bowing, prostrating, etc., and listen attentively to him reciting the Qur'an in Prayer.

Would that our sisters who are so enthusiastic about women's rights revive this act of Sunnah�a woman leading other women in Prayer�instead of innovating this rejected novelty: a woman leading men in Prayer.

It is important here to state that the original judgment concerning acts of worship is that anything not prescribed in Shari`ah in explicit texts is prohibited, so that people may not innovate matters in religion not ordained by Allah. Thus, people may not innovate a certain act of worship, change or add things in the ordained ones according to their own fancies or only because they think such matters are desirable. Whoever innovates anything in religion or adds to it whatever is not in it�that addition or innovation is rejected.

A last word to conclude this issue: What is the necessity of making all this fuss? Is that what the Muslim woman lacks�to lead men in Friday Prayer? Was that one of the Muslim women's demands at any time?

semar wrote: We see other religions specifying many matters for men and their women do not protest. So why do our women do so, exaggerating in their demands and arousing what will cause dissension among Muslims at such time when they need their unity the most to face afflictions, hardships, and major plots that aim at their complete destruction? My advice to the sister referred to in the question is that she should revert to her Lord and religion and extinguish this strife which is unnecessary to be lit. I also advise my Muslim brothers and sisters in the United States not to answer this stirring call and to stand as one in front of these trials and conspiracies woven around them.

When has it been that women of other religions have not protested?  Islam gave women their rights long before the Womens right to vote and liberation movements here in America, yet Muslim women have fallen far behind in Islamic liberation today.  Christian women have become heads of their churches and Jewish women have even become Rabbis.  Not that I am saying Muslim women need to do the same, but to point out that women in othe religions have not been silent when they feel things have been unjust.

Bismillah,

Brother Yusuf's response was eloquent and measured.  Thank you. 

 However, Sister Ummah pointed out your one weak point.  (Can't you even be as nice as the Christian and Jewish women, screams out to be responded to, and she did.)

I noticed that you said that it is not forbidden anywhere in the Qur'an and Sunnah for a woman to lead men in prayer.  That is an important point.  If the prayer leader were to wear full burqa or niqab or some similar dress, wouldn't that address your point of men's wandering, lustful eyes?

Dear Brothers and sisters As Salam O Alikum

We must acknowledge taht Islam was completed 1400 years ago by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and now we can not add or delete anything from it. Indeed according to the changed circumstances we can mold ourselves within the limits laid down by Quran and Sunnah. As to the women attending the prayers in congergation, it is very clear that they are not bound to. However if they want to attend the prayers in mosque they can do so with certain conditions, that they should not be ahead of or shoulder to shoulder to teh men (not because they are inferior etc but because men should concentrate on God rather than to on women). They can also lead the prayers of women only and while standing in the leading row and not ahead of the first row. This permission was granted by The Holy Prophet to the Lady Um-e-Warqa (RA). As far as the question of women leading the mixed congergation is concerned indeed it is not permitted. The word "Muslim" means to surrender one's will to the will of Allah. So if we have to be a Muslim we have to surrender completely if we are not convinced well sorry there is no other way just taht we may adopt some other religion. At the end we will be the loser in the hereafter. If the wives and daughters of Holy Prophet have not lead the prayers it is clear that there is no provision for that. If there would have been one those ladies would have been the first one to do that. Indeed we can't mold the rituals of Islam according to our wishes otherwise Islam will become a joke and not a religion with everyone practicing according to his own will and understanding.   

Shams zaman

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Brother Yusuf's response was eloquent and measured.  Thank you.   However, Sister Ummah pointed out your one weak point.  (Can't you even be as nice as the Christian and Jewish women, screams out to be responded to, and she did.) I noticed that you said that it is not forbidden anywhere in the Qur'an and Sunnah for a woman to lead men in prayer.  That is an important point.  If the prayer leader were to wear full burqa or niqab or some similar dress, wouldn't that address your point of men's wandering, lustful eyes?

The prayer was not only led by a woman but also men and women prayed shoulder to shoulder.

A great call indeed for the sexy-ization of prayer and secularization of Islam!

Bismillah,

The underlying discussion that we may not interperet things for ourselves and everything was decided before for us destroys the heart of an active, converting Islam.  Well, maybe some people like that, of course, but not me and many like me.  I understand clearly this is how many people believe, and that is fine for you.  I'll try to be diplomatic to encourage dialog amonst us Muslims.

So please, I implore all of you who believe this way not to insult all the Believing Muslims like myself.  Don't label us non-believers.  We will have to ignore you then, and you might have something worthwhile to contribute to us if you would stop ranting about doing everything the way you think it should be done. 

We listen and think and make serious decisions, and some of us lead, like this sister in New York.  (Yeah, I know she made some mistakes.  Maybe she does too.  Leaders do that when they get out there and take charge of an important situation.)  We are here, and Al-Hamdulilah, we are Muslimeen.  We love the Holy Prophets, Salat et cetera.  Let's stop exchanging cruel words when we could unite against poverty and injustice and things like that.

And I have been appointed a leader because my children hear me when I encourage them to love their Deen.  So Allah, SWT, has guided me, and ISA I will help guide them.  Maybe they will lead in prayer one day, and make big leadership decisions that everyone else talks about. (Count your lucky stars my girls are conformists. They'll be with me with the sisters in the back, or the side depending on the mosque we are at.)

Let's look for the good things in each other to agree with frequently, and then just sometimes we could remind each other of all the other things we disagree about.

Really, we heard you when you said people who don't believe like you are going to hell et cetera.  There's no need to repeat that.

Back to the main topic:  Kudos to the Leader/Sister from New York.

Hi Everyone!

Can't we just look at the facts and evidences on this issue more objectively than the stories or myths created around Islam by cultural fences? I guess, only then we shall be able to find the solution to the problems that we face. I really appreciate the analysis of  Bro Yousaf and shall form the basis of what come next in the following few lines . Having said this, however, I do realize that more than 90% of our mosques all aournd the world, are seperating the women's place of prayer far beyond the acceptable norms of sunnah (if at all, they have such a place for them), just based on blind fears of cultural backwardness. This kind of treatment to women is bound to cause, in the reaction to it, to what had happened in the NY last Jumma. You may admit it or not, the matter is far beyond being just the women leading the prayer. I am sure, if proper sunnah would have implemented, much less ripples would have been created. Let's remove un-necessary barriers created in our mosques and let our women pray as it has been the case at the time of our prophet. Let the most educated among us (male or female) give us Khutbahs and sermons at other occassions, however, let the imam be the most pious male among us. Yes, we can have someone else (other than imam) to give Khutbah and then imam lead the prayer subsequently. Let the women also participate in decision making or other processes concerning mosques or Islamic centers. Let there be proportional representation of both men and women in the excutive committees of their respective centers. Let the racism of any kind not find its roots among us and be fair in our dealings with everyone. Any other thoughts, kindly suggest or critcize but tolerate others. Cheers!

Salamalikumm to all who deserve it from Allah.

MY dear brothers and sisters. We can discuss this matter at hand as much as we want however we will not be able to conclude and make everyone agree.THerefore let us spend our time and health in the path of Allah through which Allah will fix thes corruptions from behind the veil. ALso the ones who r showing the fabricated hadith shud also understand that all ahadith r not fabricated and that many brothers and sisters here have also stated AUTHENTIC ahadith as long as we believe in ahadith(BUkhari etc... and Quran). So clearly proven, women Are not allowed to lead prayers. If more information needed, just look above at those authentic ahadith and QURAN ayah please.

For true believers much words are NOT needed for remembering death and judgement. however for the rest no matter how much we write and write and speak it WILL NOT enter the hearts if Allah has veiled their hearts.may Allah save us Ameen.  

There are two important points which are ignored in "Women-Led Friday Prayer".

First, to develop new ideas/approaches , two criteria must be provided. They are the existence of capable and sufficient scholars and need to the new idea\approach. if both of them are provided, the new idea\approach must be appropriate to Qur'an, Hadith, scholars agreement etc.

This post-modern! approach is done by people who are incapable and insufficient on  Commentary, Hadith etc. to be able to declare new islamic ideas. And the only reason of their ideas and actions is " Adaptation of islam to the American Life Style" so that, Women-Led Friday prayer is a necessity in their opinion. At this point, is "Women-Led Friday Prayer"  a necessity or a an effort to satisfy feminist pleasures??? 

There are hadithes about Hz. Ummu Seleme (r.a) and Hz. Ayesha (r.a) who are wives of Hz. Muhammad (pbuh - s.a.v -) led womens in salah and Hz. Muhammad (pbuh - s.a.v -) didn't stopped them. This is the source of idea "Women can lead women in salah". But there is no permission about "Women can lead men", except one; in many hadith books ("Musned" of "Ahmed b. Hanbel", "Sunen" of "Ebu Davud", "Sahih" of "ibn huzeyme", "Sunen-i Kebir" of "Beyhaki", "Mustedrek" of "Hakim" and more), Hz. Muhammad (pbuh - s.a.v -) allowed only one woman called "Hz. Ummu Varaka (r.a)" who was hafiz to lead only his family in Salah. This is an exception and according to Imam Azaam Ebu Hanife, Imam Safi and the majority of scholars, women-led prayer is not allowed.

Secondly, islam is the subject not the object. islam presents a life style and wants its believers to apply. The object is not islam, but humans. The thing which is humans are supposed to do, ,is not to adapt Qur'an and Sunnah to their life sytles but to adapt their cultures and life styles according to the practical and Theorotical values in Qur'an and Sunnah.

Perhaps, Dr. Amina Wadud is not malicious but her islam approach takes us to a divison, because there is no such thing as "American, African etc. islam".

(i wish i would improve my english )

AA-

I think it is time to put the issue to rest. I have waited day after day for evidence from the Sunnah to show that woman led prayers is allowed in Islam, and I have not seen any

People who have argued for the cause of Amina Wadud and her supporters have used the argument that Muslim men today have mal-treated the Muslim sisters. This is fact and most of us agree that it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

But to make a leap from that issue, to "it is permissable to lead men in prayer"....is non-sense.

May Allah guide us all

AA

Rehman posted an interesting article "Idiocy of Gender Equality: The Case Of The Woman Imam"

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=235&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=235& PN=1

Once I had this interesting conservation with another at the old forum on this subject, which came about me asking about women prophets. I will provide the link later, or bring the whole thing here but perhaps in a new thread for reading

But as for the verse men are protectors and maintainers of women, Really does this also go for reading prayers in mosques ? why do women need protection and maintaining in Mosque ? That should be already in place, why would it affect reading/leading prayers?

Why have a mix congregation on Fridays when women aren't allowed to lead pray? If you have a mix congregation, you think you can have a mix leadship.

If women cannot be allowed to lead the men in a prayer, then men shouldn't be allowed to lead the women in a prayer.

blond wrote: The woman is man's first teacher. She is his first leader in life. This is not to say that we should put our women out front with no protection. This is just to point out that Allah made her thus. Man seekd to make her other than what Allah has made.

Why do women need protection in mosques, it should be there already.

And anyway why not lead prayer at the back, behind the congregation, everyone should still hear. men can't see but still hear the words of prayer.

Angel wrote: [QUOTE=blond]Why do women need protection in mosques, it should be there already. And anyway why not lead prayer at the back, behind the congregation, everyone should still hear. men can't see but still hear the words of prayer.

Please don't misunderstand my intent, I was not speaking in opposition to you.

Our women do need protection from the enemy.

The problem is, oftimes we have been the enemy.

I know you weren't speaking in opposition to me nor I with you. I just posted another thought of mine, now I have no more