Christians as well as Muslims believe in the second coming of Jesus. I think both parties believe that he (Jesus) will return at the end of the world to fight (or help in the fight) against oppression, infidelity, etc... Now, I mean no mockery at all, but this is my question - How do you (Christians and Muslims) imagine the scene to be like? Will Jesus be leading the believers on a horse with a sword in hand? Or will he be holding a machine gun and commanding F-16's?

Deus,

As a christian, I believe Jesus will come, and those who know him will rejoice, those who don't, will perish forever.  His return will be unpleasant for those who have not lived a life of service and tolerance/love for all.  In my mind, I see many Islamojihadist's being cast into the lake of fire for their intolerance and wickedness performed in the name of Allah of Islam.  My Father would never, never, never approve of such acts.

Do not confuse what is happening right now with western might as Armagedon.  It is part of the battle to come before the return of our lord Jesus Christ. 

Jesus asks that we turn our back, dust off our shoes and walk away from those who do not wish to hear his word, the Father will judge them.  It is not for us to judge.  I believe the Father demonstrated much more vengence in the old testament, sacrificed his only son in an attempt to share his love and save all of man.  There is much violence against Christians in the new Testament without vengence, I believe this is the path we must follow. 

But how will the battle between Jesus and his enemies take place? Will it be a spiritual battle or military as well? And if military, how much role will Jesus be playing in it?

americancrusade wrote: Do not confuse what is happening right now with western might as Armagedon.  It is part of the battle to come before the return of our lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus asks that we turn our back, dust off our shoes and walk away from those who do not wish to hear his word, the Father will judge them.  It is not for us to judge.

My brother americancrusade, I fully agree with you if you mean "father" implies "the God whom Jesus also used to pray". Kindly do let me know if it is so.

I believe the Father demonstrated much more vengence in the old testament, ........

sacrificed his only son in an attempt to share his love and save all of man.

This is totally a strange love that I have ever heard of. So you mean the people killing their own children in Iraq are justified for their love to save their people from occupation?

There is much violence against Christians in the new Testament without vengence, I believe this is the path we must follow.

Bismillah,

Al-Wadud means The Loving, and is one of the many beautifull names Allah, SWT, has.  Al-Wadud has never and will never advocate human sacrifice for any reason. He will forgive us when we are pure of heart in our intentions because he is Loving and Merciful.

Abraham was loved by Al-Wadud.  He was told to sacrifice his son as a test of faith, but then he was stopped and told to sacrifce a lamb instead.  This story clearly teaches us that even though we should be willing to sacrifce anything for our belief and faith and fear of Allah, SWT, that we will not be asked to kill our children ever as a blood sacrifice.

Human sacrifce is a pagan concept that has corrupted Christianity and Islam. Our Loving God, whom we know is neither male nor female, scorns such ideas.  Our beloved Jesus (Isa) was taken up to heaven to avoid the pains of death until Judgement Day because Allah, SWT, loves him so much. Catholics and Shias have in common self-flagellation to the point of death.  This is a human sacrifice that defies Allah's Love and concern for us.

Why don't you consider the possiblity that God can forgive our sins without such a tragic sacrifice?  Allah, SWT, encourages us to repent and live good lives, and all we must do is have pure, open, uncorrupted hearts and souls for our repentance to be embraced by our Lord.

The concept of how Jesus will return differs depending on the denomination of Christianity you believe in.  Some of us are taught he will return on a chariot of fire from the Heavens, to rule the Earth for a Millenia of Peace and the Devil will be bound and have no power over man.  Then after this Millenia of peace, the gates of hell will open, the final battle and then Judgement will occur.  At that time we will be resurrected and assigned our eternal rewards.  Others believe that the return of Christ will be heralded by signs but it will be more subtle, his war with the Anti-Christ a Shadow war that will finish with the last battle in the Valley of Armagedon and then the Judgement Day will come and the resurrection will be only for the believers, everyone else will stay dead or in hell.  Frankly, the only answer a true Christian can give you is..........we don't know, only the Father knows the Day and the Hour.....and in that statement, the way.  Its a debate no one knows the answer to and its like the Robert Frost Poem:

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

     -- Robert Frost 

Another version of the issue,Bob Marley and his dreams on Africa waiting for Jesus's return......

http://www.bobmarley.com/songs/ram/exodus.ram">

Bob Marley



"Exodus," which moved Bob into an era of international hits, was a vast change of style. Recorded in London after Bob left Jamaica when he was shot in December 1976; he had determined the title of the LP before the title track was even recorded.

The title track, the first single to receive widespread airplay on black radio stations in the United States, concerned a final journey - of Damnation for some, of Resurrection for others. The central message, though, was a vision of glorious end to the suffering of all Jah's people.

Exodus, movement of Jah people, oh yeah
Open your eyes and let me tell you this

Men and people will fight ya down (Tell me why?)
  when ya see Jah light
Let me tell you, if you're not wrong (Then why?)
  ev'rything is alright
So we gonna walk, alright, through the roads of creation
We're the generation (Tell me why)
  trod through great tribulation
  
Exodus, movement of Jah people
Exodus, movement of Jah people

Open your eyes and look within
Are you satisfied with the life you're living?
We know where we're going; we know where we're from
We're leaving Babylon, we're going to our fatherland

Exodus, movement of Jah people
(Movement of Jah people)
Send us another Brother Moses gonna cross the Red Sea
(Movement of Jah people)
Send us another Brother Moses gonna cross the Red Sea

Exodus, movement of Jah people
Exodus, Exodus, Exodus, Exodus,
Exodus, Exodus, Exodus, Exodus
Move! Move! Move! Move! Move! Move!

Open your eyes and look within
Are you satisfied with the life you're living?
We know where we're going; we know where we're from
We're leaving Babylon, we're going to the fatherland

Exodus, movement of Jah people
Exodus, movement of Jah people
Movement of Jah people (4 times)
Move! Move! Move! Move! Move! Move!

Jah come to break down 'pression, rule equality
Wipe away transgression, set the captives free

Exodus, movement of Jah people
Exodus, movement of Jah people
Movement of Jah people (5 times)

Move! Move! Move! Move! Move! Move!
Movement of Jah people (5 times)

Israfil wrote: As a joke to brother Suli I can imagine you listening to this song while smoking weed at the same time LOL

Wow!!!...a good one Israfil...marijuana...no i use incidon instead of it,a halal one.........

...only joke...

Assalamu alaikum,

  I am laughing even more at imagining a Turk with dreadlocks, a lovely red turban with a feather in front on his head, smoking his shisha with those curly toed Ottoman slippers on his feet!!!  Thanks for the laugh Israfil and Suleyman. 

 Sorry Deus, as for your topic, I don't imagine the return of Isa with either sword or machine gun.  I rather imagine he might be a quiet, humble and simple person whose incredible example of how to live righteously will cause people to love him and follow him. 

Call it a quiet revolution - the fast and furious spread of Islam by the pure Will of Allah, through the example of Isa.  In the end, the Word will be mighter than the sword (or machine gun)!

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: Assalamu alaikum,   I am laughing even more at imagining a Turk with dreadlocks, a lovely red turban with a feather in front on his head, smoking his shisha with those curly toed Ottoman slippers on his feet!!!  Thanks for the laugh Israfil and Suleyman.

Aleykum Selam ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh,

Sister,if you'll find one please call me to see...

In the koran it says Jesus will be a witness on the day of judgement against the jews and christians who invented lies against Allah, and thus against him. Because denying him thus denying the truth which he came with which the jews do and the lies told about him being the son of Allah, or that he is Allah, are lies against Allah.

Also it says in the koran that none of the people of the book BUT will believe in him('Isaa, Jesus alaihi assalaam) before his death.

But not much refference is given about his comming back in the koran except the previous statements from the koran, so obviously it is not of great importance to muslims to know wether he is comming back or not, because truth stands clear from falsehood. And those who follow falsehood, To Allah belongs all the power, and He is The Wise.

Greetings Community,

I would like to comment on this�

"In the koran it says Jesus will be a witness on the day of judgement against the jews and christians who invented lies against Allah, and thus against him. Because denying him thus denying the truth which he came with which the jews do and the lies told about him being the son of Allah, or that he is Allah, are lies against Allah."

Could you please show us where this is mentioned in the Koran�?

"Also it says in the koran that none of the people of the book BUT will believe in him('Isaa, Jesus alaihi assalaam) before his death."

Also�could you please show us where this is mentioned in the Koran�?

"But not much refference is given about his comming back in the koran except the previous statements from the koran, so obviously it is not of great importance to muslims to know wether he is comming back or not, because truth stands clear from falsehood. And those who follow falsehood, To Allah belongs all the power, and He is The Wise."

Does the Koran mention a second coming of Jesus�?

If it is mentioned in the Holy Bible, then yes, more than likely the authors who penned the Koranic text (as we know it today), also carried this concept over as well � let�s look�

43.57   And when Mary's son was given (as) an example, then your nation from Him, they object/obstruct.

43.58   And they said: "Are our gods better or He?" They did not give it (the question) to you except arguing/disputing, but they are a nation disputing/controverting.

43.59   That truly he (Jesus) is except a worshipper/slave We blessed on him and We made him an example to Israel's sons and daughters.

43.60   And if We will/want, We would have made from you angels in the earth/Planet Earth they succeed/follow.

��������� �������� ����������� ����� ����������� ����� ������������ ����� ������ �����������

Wa-innahu laAAilmun lilssaAAati fala tamtarunna biha waittabiAAooni hatha siratun mustaqeemun

43.61   And verily He, i.e. Jesus, by His appearing, and descending to the earth, shall be a sign of the approach of the hour (of Resurrection), so do not doubt/argue with it, and follow Me, that (is a) straight/direct road/way.

Reference:

An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142

43.62   And (let) not the devil prevent/obstruct you, that he truly is for you a clear/evident enemy.

43.63   And when Jesus came with the evidences, he said: "I had come to you with the wisdom, and to clarify/explain for you some/part (of) what you differ/disagree in it, so fear and obey Allah, and obey me."

Thus�.once again�..if it is stated in the Holy Bible, we should not be at all surprised to see it translated into the Arabic and restated in the Koran�

Thanks...

Greetings Community, I would like to comment on this� "In the koran it says Jesus will be a witness on the day of judgement against the jews and christians who invented lies against Allah, and thus against him. Because denying him thus denying the truth which he came with which the jews do and the lies told about him being the son of Allah, or that he is Allah, are lies against Allah." Could you please show us where this is mentioned in the Koran�?

5.  116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servants: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

"Also it says in the koran that none of the people of the book BUT will believe in him('Isaa, Jesus alaihi assalaam) before his death." Also�could you please show us where this is mentioned in the Koran�?

 

4. 157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Greetings Yusuf,

Thanks for your reply�

�5.  116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

 117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

 118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servants: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

�4. 157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-�

If that's what you want to believe you go right ahead.

Bismillah,

What amazing gyrations and nonsense!

Our basic beliefs are clear and there is no need for this type of dismantling of the Holy Qur'an for your own silly jokes.

Why don't you discuss things that people care about?  The point is to talk and find meetings of the minds for people of different faiths. 

Stealing, lying, cheating, are all disapproved of in our religions.  Is there something you truly want to understand, or are you looking for arguments?  It's so easy to pick an argument.  Why don't you look for mutual understanding and peacefullness instead?

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, What amazing gyrations and nonsense! Our basic beliefs are clear and there is no need for this type of dismantling of the Holy Qur'an for your own silly jokes. Why don't you discuss things that people care about?  The point is to talk and find meetings of the minds for people of different faiths.  Stealing, lying, cheating, are all disapproved of in our religions.  Is there something you truly want to understand, or are you looking for arguments?  It's so easy to pick an argument.  Why don't you look for mutual understanding and peacefullness instead?

Assalamu alaikum,

Well stated akhi.

.....On earth as is in heaven...have you ever thought about about this part of the verse from the bible?

why on earth as is in heaven?

in heaven everyone is submitted to Allah, the angels for instance.

 on earth there are those who are submitted to His will more then others, and those most submitted to Him are the prophets, through them Allah leads the rest of mankind to a a higher level of submission to Him. The bad apples will fall off, till what remains is only the fit servants of Allah(the righteous will inherit the earth) on earth as is in heaven. Jesus is alive, Allah raised him Up to Himself.

Jesus was a beautiful creation from Allah, indeed a sign.

If someone made beautiful golden cup, and you were thirsty so he gave you to drink out of it, what would you think?

1.how beautiful the one who gives me to drink out of this beautiful creation he made. and thank the maker who gave you to drink out of it.

2.how beautiful this cup is. this is the most beautiful cup i ever seen, and drink from it and do not thank the maker of the cup but just keep staring at the cup and wonder at it's beauty.

3. Or stare at the cup and completely forget you were thirsty and thinking of the value the cup might have and how much money you could make out of it if you sold it to other people.

Greetings Community,

I will take it that these comments are directed towards us�

.....On earth as is in heaven...have you ever thought about about this part of the verse from the bible?

why on earth as is in heaven?

in heaven everyone is submitted to Allah, the angels for instance.

 on earth there are those who are submitted to His will more then others, and those most submitted to Him are the prophets, through them Allah leads the rest of mankind to a a higher level of submission to Him. The bad apples will fall off, till what remains is only the fit servants of Allah(the righteous will inherit the earth) on earth as is in heaven. Jesus is alive, Allah raised him Up to Himself.

You are referring to these Biblical passages�

Mat 6:9  So, then, you should pray this way: Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.

Mat 6:10  Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as it is in Heaven, also on the earth.

Mat 6:11  Give us today our daily bread,

Mat 6:12  and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors.

Mat 6:13  And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil, for Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory to the ages. Amen.

By specifically referencing these passages you are attempting to link the �allah� of the Koran with God the Father, as stated in the Gospels.

Why is this�?

Is your �allah� a Triune entity�.?!

Secondly, you stated that Jesus is alive.  Of course He is Alive.  Jesus is God in the flesh�and, as such, he has always existed and can never change nor die.

Thanks for acknowledging this�

Jesus was a beautiful creation from Allah, indeed a sign.

Creation�?

Jesus is God in the Flesh.

Jesus is the physical manifestation of the invisible God.

Jesus� physical body was conceived of the Holy Spirit�as proclaimed in the NT and later copied-over by the authors of the Koran.

Jesus is not a creation.

Think on it�

Bismillah,

AP is here to preach and evangelicize and cause arguments. 

 Please go to the chat rooms with the others who are there for the same things, and leave intellectual discussion amongst caring adults to us.

Greetings herjihad,

Thanks for adding your commentary�

 AP is here to preach and evangelicize and cause arguments. 

Please go to the chat rooms with the others who are there for the same things, and leave intellectual discussion amongst caring adults to us.

It is clear that you have nothing to contribute to my posts, thus why so you feel compelled to slavishly reply to them�.?

Perhaps you had better take your own advice�and let others make their own informed comments�

Thanks�

Greetings DavidC,

Thanks for adding your comments�

Apple Pie, Herjiad has a point. You don't seem to be interested in the beliefs
of others except as fuel for argument.

If you feel this way, then feel completely free to watch from the sidelines as herjihad has chosen to do�

You may be surprised to find that there are many Muslim members who
know Christianity better than you. Several were once Christian themselves.

Now�that would be surprising�too bad that you are not one of those individuals�

Take care�

Apple Pie,

You are obviously not here to do anything than cause mishchief.

I am a Muslim.  I was raised a Christian, Catholic to be precise.

Alhamdulillah, Allah blessed me with His Light.  There are thousands upon thousands of Muslims who were once Christians.  Of course, you will not wish to believe this as you have a closed mind.

Peace, ummziba.

Greetings ummziba,

Thanks for your reply�

You are obviously not here to do anything than cause mishchief.

Actually, I am here for intellectual discourse.

From time to time, we must deal with the hecklers that can do nothing else, when cornered.

I am a Muslim.  I was raised a Christian, Catholic to be precise.

I am sorry to hear that you defected�however, Catholicism is steeped in man-made traditions, such as Islam is as well�perhaps this was the appeal�?

Alhamdulillah, Allah blessed me with His Light.  There are thousands upon thousands of Muslims who were once Christians.  Of course, you will not wish to believe this as you have a closed mind.

There are actually millions upon millions of conversions of both directions going on all the time�.why would I not believe these things�?

Thanks�

My Dear Bro Apple Pie, can't we pray to the same One God whom Jesus also used to pray? Shouldn't we? Triune or whatever you say is an human explanation of these scriptures as you would not even find this very word in whole of the Bible. Isn't it? So should we argue about these human explanations? I don't think so. So why not make a common understanding among us that is based on undeniable facts rather than emotions of hatred?

Greetigns AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your reply�

My Dear Bro Apple Pie, can't we pray to the same One God whom Jesus also used to pray? Shouldn't we?

Do you think that the god of Islam is the Yahweh of the Holy Bible�?

Triune or whatever you say is an human explanation of these scriptures as you would not even find this very word in whole of the Bible. Isn't it?

The word �trinity� is an epithet that was coined to summarize the scriptures as to how the Creator God of the holy Bible has chosen to reveal Himself�

Ironically, the authors of the Koran have also revealed their �allah� in the very same manner�

So should we argue about these human explanations? I don't think so. So why not make a common understanding among us that is based on undeniable facts rather than emotions of hatred?

It is most interesting that you use the word �hatred��as it appears to be an emotion that is on your mind and not ours�.

Take care�

Bismillah,

Deus,

You know, I haven't thought about it much.  I have enjoyed watching apocolyptic movies, even the long, long Christian one which I don't know the name to that is recent.  Allah, our Compassionate Lord and Punisher of Sins only knows exactly what it will be like. 

I think of the one Islaamic foretelling which says the sun will rise in the west.  That will be hard to miss, won't it?!  And then I have heard that death is the most difficult thing that all human beings must go through.  So we all will die, including ISA, pbuh, on that day.  So a lot will be going on.  I know we won't be bored.  There will be action, turmoil, sadness, pain, but maybe joy also? 

But Allah, SWT, is the most Good, so it will be a welcome, good day.

FYI:  I am a mom, a sister.  I thought the name was clear.  Herjihad symbolizes my dedication as a muslim mother.

Apple Pie wrote: Greetigns AhmadJoyia, Thanks for your reply� My Dear Bro Apple Pie, can't we pray to the same One God whom Jesus also used to pray? Shouldn't we? Do you think that the god of Islam is the Yahweh of the Holy Bible�?

My dear bro Apple Pie, I don't know which "Yahweh of Holy Bible" are you specifically referring to. Nevertheless, more important to know is our God is one, just one God; whether we believe in it or not; its immaterial. What do you say about this? So, when I say I believe in the same God (as defined in your gospels) to whom Jesus also used to pray, do you have any reservations of not accepting this fact? I would understand some uneasiness on the part of my Muslim brothers, if at all any, but what is that which bothers you in this statement? I really don't understand.

Triune or whatever you say is an human explanation of these scriptures as you would not even find this very word in whole of the Bible. Isn't it? The word �trinity� is an epithet that was coined to summarize the scriptures as to how the Creator God of the holy Bible has chosen to reveal Himself�

So my dear brother, if this term has any truth, why this term appears only through the NT part of it and not the OT part of it? Don't the Jews also share the same OT?

Ironically, the authors of the Koran have also revealed their �allah� in the very same manner�

"Ironically", yes one may call it "ironically" because of his own misunderstanding of Quran. Other than that, for us, Allah is one and only one. There is none equal to Him. He begets none nor begotten by anyone. So, my dear, your false understanding faces right on to your ownself.

It is most interesting that you use the word �hatred��as it appears to be an emotion that is on your mind and not ours�. Take care�

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your reply�

My dear bro Apple Pie, I don't know which "Yahweh of Holy Bible" are you specifically referring to.

Then how can you say �can�t we pray to the same one God��.if you are unsure of who He is in the first place�?!

Nevertheless, more important to know is our God is one, just one God; whether we believe in it or not; its immaterial. What do you say about this? So, when I say I believe in the same God (as defined in your gospels) to whom Jesus also used to pray, do you have any reservations of not accepting this fact? I would understand some uneasiness on the part of my Muslim brothers, if at all any, but what is that which bothers you in this statement? I really don't understand.

If you do not take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (as clearly mandated in the classic Arabic of your book of faith), then we are not praying to the same One God.

If you deny the classic Arabic of your scriptures then you are worshipping a false god�

This is as simple as it gets�

So my dear brother, if this term has any truth, why this term appears only through the NT part of it and not the OT part of it? Don't the Jews also share the same OT?

Who ever stated that the OT was devoid of the Uniplurality of the One Creator God of the Universe�?

"Ironically", yes one may call it "ironically" because of his own misunderstanding of Quran. Other than that, for us, Allah is one and only one. There is none equal to Him. He begets none nor begotten by anyone. So, my dear, your false understanding faces right on to your ownself.

There you go again�.

Denying what 4.171 blatantly tells you�

Please inform us just how your ONE god can be composed of Both Spirit & Word�?!

I may be wrong in my observation of your comments elsewhere; however am so happy to hear that atleast you are not emotional in your hatred but .............in hatred. I shall leave it you to fill in the blanks or you intend to refute the "blank" totally. That shall indeed be more joyfull.

Again�you repeatedly mention �hatred��

Why is your thought train confined to using this term when ever there is irrefutable opposition to your belief system�.?

If you truly were confident in your faith, then your constant usage of the word �hatred� would not have even come into the picture�

Perhaps we now have a glimpse of why Muslim nations continue in their violence in the name of their god�

Take care�

43.61   And verily He, i.e. Jesus, by His appearing, and descending to the earth, shall be a sign of the approach of the hour (of Resurrection), so do not doubt/argue with it, and follow Me, that (is a) straight/direct road/way.

This and other verses used are incorrectly translated or interpreted.

The correct version is "And verily he is a knowledge for the hour." 'ilmun li assaa'ati" means knowledge for the hour not sign for the hour "ayatun li assaa'ati".

It is the truth.

Jesus is not dead, but alive, a prophet who did not die yet.

Our Prophet said that no one can be a believer in him if they do not believe in Jesus.

Jeus said that no one comes to as what they translate as "Father" but we call Rabb al 'alameen (Lord Cherisher of the worlds mankind and jinn) Except through him. This connects to the words of our prophet if you understand.

Jesus is alive and is a knowledge for the hour.

Jesus gave life to the dead, healed the sick and made the form of a bird of clay and breath into it and it became a living bird by the leave of Allah.

Besides Allah you have no protector or helper, everyone with Him is submitted to Him, so submit to Him, serve Him and be thankful to Him.

Greetings Community,

Thanks for your reply�

43.61   And verily He, i.e. Jesus, by His appearing, and descending to the earth, shall be a sign of the approach of the hour (of Resurrection), so do not doubt/argue with it, and follow Me, that (is a) straight/direct road/way.

This and other verses used are incorrectly translated or interpreted.

The correct version is "And verily he is a knowledge for the hour." 'ilmun li assaa'ati" means knowledge for the hour not sign for the hour "ayatun li assaa'ati".

It is the truth.

First of all, please bring forth your references for your interpretation�.thanks�

Secondly, it appears that you are acknowledging that these ayahs are referring to Jesus.

Who (but God Himself) know the hour�?

Jesus is not dead, but alive, a prophet who did not die yet.

Where does it state this in your book of faith�?

Our Prophet said that no one can be a believer in him if they do not believe in Jesus.

Where does it state this in your book of faith�?

Jeus said that no one comes to as what they translate as "Father" but we call Rabb al 'alameen (Lord Cherisher of the worlds mankind and jinn) Except through him. This connects to the words of our prophet if you understand.

I�m glad that you brought this up�.as it amply demonstrates my point that the authors of the Koran simply are copying Biblical material�

�rabbu alAAalameena� definition:

The Lord of the jinn, or genii, and of mankind: the Lord of all created beings.  It comes from the root �alama�, which means to mark, sign, and distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides.  Knowledge.

References:

An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1^st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 383 - 385

The very first sura is addressed to mankind and the �Jinn��

It is most interesting that the �Jinn� are in fact, the demonic locusts detailed in the Book of Revelation.

Hence, this theme literally saturates the entire Koran from start to finish.

Completely copying Biblical, as we would predict�and, as the authors themselves quite clearly stated�

Jesus is alive and is a knowledge for the hour.

Jesus is alive and knows the hour because He is God Almighty.

This is stated in the holy Bible, and also in the classic Arabic of your book of faith�

Don�t deny it.

Jesus gave life to the dead, healed the sick and made the form of a bird of clay and breath into it and it became a living bird by the leave of Allah.

Only God can raise the dead.

Period.

Hence, to acknowledge that Jesus can raise the dead inherently demonstrates that He is God Himself.

Furthermore, this �clay bird� fable was copied by the Koranic authors from Christian heretical sources�

Thanks�

My refference to translating that verse is the clear arabic language, i would suggest you learn it before trying to use it to back up your claims between brackets.

Greetings Community,

Thanks for your terse reply�

My refference to translating that verse is the clear arabic language, i would suggest you learn it before trying to use it to back up your claims between brackets.

If you feel that you have a good understanding of the classic Arabic then feel free to reference your position.

As you can see for yourself; I have no problem referencing my position with the highest quality lexicography available.

You, however, are relying on raw unreferenced opinion (apparently)�

Let�s see who has the better understanding of the text�.up for that�.?

Thanks�

Apple Pie wrote:   .......My dear bro Apple Pie, I don't know which "Yahweh of Holy Bible" are you specifically referring to. Then how can you say �can�t we pray to the same one God��.if you are unsure of who He is in the first place�?!

O my dear brother, can you show me as which version of Bible(NT) carries this word? According to my Biblical search of KJV, ASV and RSV, none of them (Both OT and NT). carry this word at all what to just the NT only. Nevertheless, since this word is not of omni-nature, hence its meanings and its interpretation grossly differ and depends whom you ask to. Hence it is imperative that we generalize the Divinity as "God" than personalizing it to a certain group of people.

Nevertheless, more important to know is our God is one, just one God; whether we believe in it or not; its immaterial. What do you say about this? So, when I say I believe in the same God (as defined in your gospels) to whom Jesus also used to pray, do you have any reservations of not accepting this fact? I would understand some uneasiness on the part of my Muslim brothers, if at all any, but what is that which bothers you in this statement? I really don't understand. If you do not take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (as clearly mandated in the classic Arabic of your book of faith), then we are not praying to the same One God. If you deny the classic Arabic of your scriptures then you are worshipping a false god�

Again my dear brother its not the issue of what I believe from Quran, but more important to know and understand is a common platform to built to reduce friction and develop harmony among selves. This again leads me to ask you "Shouldn't we all pray to the same God, to whom Jesus also used to pray?" Your avoidance of the question through meaningless diversions indicate your hesitation of comming to terms.

Quote: Triune or whatever you say is an human explanation of these scriptures as you would not even find this very word in whole of the Bible. Isn't it? The word �trinity� is an epithet that was coined to summarize the scriptures as to how the Creator God of the holy Bible has chosen to reveal Himself� So my dear brother, if this term has any truth, why this term appears only through the NT part of it and not the OT part of it? Don't the Jews also share the same OT? Who ever stated that the OT was devoid of the Uniplurality of the One Creator God of the Universe�?

So, do you challange the faith of Jews or you think they also believe in Trinity like you?

"Ironically", yes one may call it "ironically" because of his own misunderstanding of Quran. Other than that, for us, Allah is one and only one. There is none equal to Him. He begets none nor begotten by anyone. So, my dear, your false understanding faces right on to your ownself. There you go again�. Denying what 4.171 blatantly tells you� Please inform us just how your ONE god can be composed of Both Spirit & Word�?!

My dear, verse 4.171 doesn't tell us composition of God but the attributes of Prophet Jesus. Now, if you don't want to remove the moncle of NT to study Quran why do you blame me? On the more, do you have any passage in whole Bible (OT and NT) that provide the composition of God? Are you insane? Probably you don't know as what you are talking about if not Blasphamy. One can discuss His attributes, but how can one talk about the composition of an infinite divine being?

I may be wrong in my observation of your comments elsewhere; however am so happy to hear that atleast you are not emotional in your hatred but .............in hatred. I shall leave it you to fill in the blanks or you intend to refute the "blank" totally. That shall indeed be more joyfull. Again�you repeatedly mention �hatred�� Why is your thought train confined to using this term when ever there is irrefutable opposition to your belief system�.? If you truly were confident in your faith, then your constant usage of the word �hatred� would not have even come into the picture� Perhaps we now have a glimpse of why Muslim nations continue in their violence in the name of their god� Take care�

My Dear Bro, living in this place among Christian brothers, I always remain councious about as what is going on in our society. Hate mongering propoganda against Muslims is ever rising day by day through all channels of media. Some of them are quick in generalization and categorizing the Muslims, just like you have done, "Perhaps we now have a glimpse of why Muslim nations continue in their violence in the name of their god�", as quickly and as plainly that sometimes it reminds me of German Nazis dealing with their peacefull and innocent Jew citizens. I fear that same thing may not be repeated with us also. So, you may be right that I may be, being in minority, over reacting for this conciousness, but uptill this point you have not specifically rejected my fears. Allah knows the best.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your reply�

O my dear brother, can you show me as which version of Bible(NT) carries this word? According to my Biblical search of KJV, ASV and RSV, none of them (Both OT and NT). carry this word at all what to just the NT only. Nevertheless, since this word is not of omni-nature, hence its meanings and its interpretation grossly differ and depends whom you ask to. Hence it is imperative that we generalize the Divinity as "God" than personalizing it to a certain group of people.

Well�it is crystal clear that the word (or any remotely associated and/or translated word) is not in your book of faith�.hence, already we can be sure that we do not worship the same God.

Again my dear brother its not the issue of what I believe from Quran, but more important to know and understand is a common platform to built to reduce friction and develop harmony among selves. This again leads me to ask you "Shouldn't we all pray to the same God, to whom Jesus also used to pray?" Your avoidance of the question through meaningless diversions indicate your hesitation of comming to terms.

Let�s repeat ourselves once more�

If you do not take Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior (as mandated by the classic Arabic of your very own book of faith); then we are not praying to the same One God.

Is this a clear answer�?

Sura 86 tells us that Jesus is God.

Period.

If you deny this (which you are doing your very best to avoid); then no�.we are not praying to the same One God.

Muslims worship a god.  They have lost touch with their scriptures.

Christians worship the One true Creator God of the Universe.

So, do you challange the faith of Jews or you think they also believe in Trinity like you?

Most Jews (just like Muslims) do not comprehend their very own scriptures�

My dear, verse 4.171 doesn't tell us composition of God but the attributes of Prophet Jesus. Now, if you don't want to remove the moncle of NT to study Quran why do you blame me?

Let�s review some basic classic Arabic definitions first�

Please be sure to let us know if you disagree with any of these definitions�

�wa� definition:

An inseparable prefixed conjunction; and; also; but; whilst, at; together; with; together with.  Connects words and clauses as a simple coordinative �and�.   It is used as a conjunction, unrestricted conjunction, and is expressive of concomitance, particle used for swearing (by God).

References:

An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3049

A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 290

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1^st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 599

A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 156

Arabic English Dictionary, J.G. Hava, p. 845 - 846

Coordinative:

To put in the same order, or rank; to bring into a common action, movement, or condition.

Conjunction:

An uninflected linguistic form that joins together sentences, clauses, phrases, or words

The act or an instance of conjoining: the state of being conjoined; to join together (as separate entities) for a common purpose; Combination.

Occurrence together in time or space: Concurrence; the simultaneous occurrence of events or circumstances.



Concomitance:

Accompaniment; an addition intended to give completeness or symmetry; compliment; an accompanying situation or occurrence.

�fa� definition:

A prefixed inseparable conjunction particle having conjunctive power.  A particle of classification or gradation which sometimes unites single words, indicating that the objects enumerated immediately succeed or are closely behind one another; but more usually connects two clauses, showing either that the latter is immediately subsequent to the former in time, or that it is connected with it by some internal link, such as that of cause and effect.    It implies a close connection between the sentences before and after it.  This connection may be either definite cause and effect or a natural sequence of events signifying; And, Then; For; Therefore; So that; So; In order that; In that case; In consequence; Afterwards; At least; Lest; Because; For fear of; Truly, After, By; But; Thus; Consequently; In order to.  It is also expletive, and a prefix to other particles.

References:

An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume six, pp. 2321 � 2323

A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, pp. 290 - 291

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1^st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 414

Now that we have these two classic Arabic inseparable prefixed conjunctions defined; let�s see exactly how they are used in the text in question�

• but the Messiah, Jesus,
• Mary's son
• Allah's messenger
• �wa� and His Word
• He threw it away to Mary,
• �wa� and a Soul/Spirit from Him;
• �fa� so believe with Allah,

Thus�we can see that Jesus is:

• The Messiah
• Mary�s son
• Allah�s messenger
• �wa� AND His Word (who�s Word?.....�allah�s�)
• �wa� AND a Spirit from Him (who�s Spirit?....�allah�s�)

The �wa� from the classic definition is telling us of the conjoining (for a common purpose) the attributes of �allah�s� Word AND Spirit into Jesus, his son.

It is only after this concomitance, that the sequence marker �fa� brings us to the next level�

Why part of your book of faith are you  in denial of now�?

On the more, do you have any passage in whole Bible (OT and NT) that provide the composition of God?

Sure�Mat 28.19�

Are you insane?

No.

Are you�?

Probably you don't know as what you are talking about if not Blasphamy.

According to who�?

Islam�?

Or�.the authors who penned your book of faith�

One can discuss His attributes, but how can one talk about the composition of an infinite divine being?

We just did.

My Dear Bro, living in this place among Christian brothers, I always remain councious about as what is going on in our society. Hate mongering propoganda against Muslims is ever rising day by day through all channels of media. Some of them are quick in generalization and categorizing the Muslims, just like you have done, "Perhaps we now have a glimpse of why Muslim nations continue in their violence in the name of their god�",

Please show us where we ever used the word �hatred��such as you have repeatedly done�

as quickly and as plainly that sometimes it reminds me of German Nazis dealing with their peacefull and innocent Jew citizens. I fear that same thing may not be repeated with us also. So, you may be right that I may be, being in minority, over reacting for this conciousness, but uptill this point you have not specifically rejected my fears. Allah knows the best.

Answer us this�.

Did Hitler do his killing in the name of his �god��.?

Thanks�

Apple Pie wrote: Well�it is crystal clear that the word (or any remotely associated and/or translated word) is not in your book of faith�.hence, already we can be sure that we do not worship the same God.

Ah! my brother where all the logic you boast to, have gone away. If this word is not in your own Bible, then your assertion is totally illogical and uncomprehensible. Anyhow, when intentions are so foul, what the scriptures would to play?

Again my dear brother its not the issue of what I believe from Quran, but more important to know and understand is a common platform to built to reduce friction and develop harmony among selves. This again leads me to ask you "Shouldn't we all pray to the same God, to whom Jesus also used to pray?" Your avoidance of the question through meaningless diversions indicate your hesitation of comming to terms. Let�s repeat ourselves once more�

Hence you have shown your inability to come to terms to your own scriptures. This is really a pity on all of us. Nevertheless I hope and pray that may God help us in bridging the bond among us. Amin.

If you do not take Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior (as mandated by the classic Arabic of your very own book of faith); then we are not praying to the same One God. Is this a clear answer�?

Yes, indeed. You have clearly rejected your own scripture, willfully. Don't blame that you weren't warned about. BTW, who denied that Jesus is not Massiah and thus the lord. Within the dictionary meaning of word "lord" as "Main Entry: ¹lord javascript popWin'/cgi-bin/audio.pl?lord0001.wav=lord'">
Pronunciation: 'lord
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English loverd, lord, from Old English hlAford, from hlAf loaf + weard keeper -- more at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=loaf - LOAF , http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ward - WARD
1 : one having power and authority over others: a : a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due b : one of whom a fee or estate is held in feudal tenure c : an owner of land or other real property d obsolete : the male head of a household e : http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=husband - HUSBAND f : one that has achieved mastery or that exercises leadership or great power in some area <a drug lord>
"

Yap!, Here I am my brother, for extending my arm for mutual agreement and let us repeat it togather as what you propose:

Let us pray to our God, to the same God to whom Jesus, our saviour and lord, also used to pray.

Now if you run away from this prayer, what shall we call you? Just let us know before you do that, if you decide to run?

Sura 86 tells us that Jesus is God. Period.

What??? Kindly provide your version of translation without deceptions, if you can, to prove your point. This is for the first time I am hearing it from you. May be a topic of another thread. Nevertheless, open a new thread and I shall see how, I can shun off your claims. 

If you deny this (which you are doing your very best to avoid); then no�.we are not praying to the same One God.

When did this last time came up in our discussions? I am not very sure of.

Muslims worship a god.  They have lost touch with their scriptures. Christians worship the One true Creator God of the Universe.

Muslims worship one true God, but my Christian brothers insist on Uniplurity of One God. Just compare whose definition is more closer to the reality. I am inclined for reconcilliation, but my brother has persistently refuted it. I am yet hopefull for the mercy from our God.

So, do you challange the faith of Jews or you think they also believe in Trinity like you? Most Jews (just like Muslims) do not comprehend their very own scriptures�

So everyone else in this world is wrong, except my brother. Hmm!! BTW, what evidence do you have to reflect Trinity from OT? It shall be really amuzing to see your jugglary of words in this field as well.

My dear, verse 4.171 doesn't tell us composition of God but the attributes of Prophet Jesus. Now, if you don't want to remove the moncle of NT to study Quran why do you blame me? Let�s review some basic classic Arabic definitions first� Please be sure to let us know if you disagree with any of these definitions�    �wa� definition: An inseparable prefixed conjunction; and; also; but; whilst, at; together; with; together with.  Connects words and clauses as a simple coordinative �and�.   It is used as a conjunction, unrestricted conjunction, and is expressive of concomitance, particle used for swearing (by God). References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3049 A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 290 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 599 A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 156 Arabic English Dictionary, J.G. Hava, p. 845 - 846 Coordinative: To put in the same order, or rank; to bring into a common action, movement, or condition. Conjunction: An uninflected linguistic form that joins together sentences, clauses, phrases, or words The act or an instance of conjoining: the state of being conjoined; to join together (as separate entities) for a common purpose; Combination. Occurrence together in time or space: Concurrence; the simultaneous occurrence of events or circumstances. Concomitance: Accompaniment; an addition intended to give completeness or symmetry; compliment; an accompanying situation or occurrence.   �fa� definition: A prefixed inseparable conjunction particle having conjunctive power.  A particle of classification or gradation which sometimes unites single words, indicating that the objects enumerated immediately succeed or are closely behind one another; but more usually connects two clauses, showing either that the latter is immediately subsequent to the former in time, or that it is connected with it by some internal link, such as that of cause and effect.    It implies a close connection between the sentences before and after it.  This connection may be either definite cause and effect or a natural sequence of events signifying; And, Then; For; Therefore; So that; So; In order that; In that case; In consequence; Afterwards; At least; Lest; Because; For fear of; Truly, After, By; But; Thus; Consequently; In order to.  It is also expletive, and a prefix to other particles. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume six, pp. 2321 � 2323 A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, pp. 290 - 291 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 414 Now that we have these two classic Arabic inseparable prefixed conjunctions defined; let�s see exactly how they are used in the text in question� but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son Allah's messenger �wa� and His Word He threw it away to Mary, �wa� and a Soul/Spirit from Him; �fa� so believe with Allah, Thus�we can see that Jesus is: The Messiah Mary�s son Allah�s messenger �wa� AND His Word (who�s Word?.....�allah�s�) �wa� AND a Spirit from Him (who�s Spirit?....�allah�s�) The �wa� from the classic definition is telling us of the conjoining (for a common purpose) the attributes of �allah�s� Word AND Spirit into Jesus, his son. It is only after this concomitance, that the sequence marker �fa� brings us to the next level� Why part of your book of faith are you  in denial of now�?

 I have already unveiled your deception on the topic of "Trinity", kindly simply refer there for complete refutation of jugglary of your words to distort the meanings.

On the more, do you have any passage in whole Bible (OT and NT) that provide the composition of God? Sure�Mat 28.19�

My dear brother who is the Mat in your reference and what has his/her relation with your God? However, if this implies Matthew 28.19, then its a book of anonymous authorship, which, later on, has convienently been labled as Matthew for ease of recognition among other anonymous books. Therefore, this lable doesn't represent the disciple Matthew of Jesus Christ. Hence, before even I look into this, your reference is of dubious nature. Let me know if you have any other reliable reference without doubt from your "Holy" scripture.

Are you insane? No.

Good, then avoid using such words "composition" for infinite God. Otherwise, you will land in your own contradictions when it comes to explaining it in literal sense.

Are you�?

Brother, tit for tat shall not work, but only congnisant of reality shall improve our mutual understanding.

 

Probably you don't know as what you are talking about if not Blasphamy. According to who�? Islam�? Or�.the authors who penned your book of faith�

According to your own faith my dear, your very own. If you have any.

 

One can discuss His attributes, but how can one talk about the composition of an infinite divine being? We just did.

Probably your anonymous author may not be happy with your actions. But who cares who he was??

My Dear Bro, living in this place among Christian brothers, I always remain councious about as what is going on in our society. Hate mongering propoganda against Muslims is ever rising day by day through all channels of media. Some of them are quick in generalization and categorizing the Muslims, just like you have done, "Perhaps we now have a glimpse of why Muslim nations continue in their violence in the name of their god�", Please show us where we ever used the word �hatred��such as you have repeatedly done�

Hatred as a mere word may not be so important than your continous denial to bridge the gap, that too, perfect to all your own terms and requirements.

as quickly and as plainly that sometimes it reminds me of German Nazis dealing with their peacefull and innocent Jew citizens. I fear that same thing may not be repeated with us also. So, you may be right that I may be, being in minority, over reacting for this conciousness, but uptill this point you have not specifically rejected my fears. Allah knows the best. Answer us this�. Did Hitler do his killing in the name of his �god��.? Thanks�

So now you want to change the pre-requisites for doing the same action, though some one has already provided you the answer?

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Thanks for your lack-of a reply�

 I have already unveiled your deception on the topic of "Trinity", kindly simply refer there for complete refutation of jugglary of your words to distort the meanings.

Should we do this before�or after, you define �wa� and �fa� for us�.?

What??? Kindly provide your version of translation without deceptions, if you can, to prove your point.

Done�

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1574&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1574& ; ;PN=1

This is for the first time I am hearing it from you.

You really do need to expand your horizons�.

May be a topic of another thread. Nevertheless, open a new thread and I shall see how, I can shun off your claims. 

Brother Noah graciously offered a link that details sura 86, and demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that:

• Jesus was worshiped as God
• Jesus was Crucified
• Jesus was Resurrected
• Jesus judges the dead

All of this�.nice and neatly contained in Sura 86.

We welcome you and any other interested parties to try their hand at refuting our exegesis.

As fair warning�this Sura 86 exegesis is not for the faint of heart Muslim.

It will, in fact, be very, very, very disturbing to most Muslims to learn the truth behind the classic Arabic of their holy book�

Additionally�no one has ever refuted our exegesis since its inception last year.

Here is the link, once again, supplied by Noah earlier�

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737 - http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737

Have fun�

O my dear St. Apple Pie, your deceptions are now the art of the past, though I do see you again slipping away from your own words; as I predicted. But you didn�t tell what should we call you on that account? Anyhow, may I promise that I won�t tell it to others about your desertion!!

Again, I am not much surprised to see you avoiding the tough questions raised and yet raising others to divert focus from the main. All your jugglery of words including �wa� and �fa� has been duly replied in that thread of �Trinity� not to say just unveiled them.

Done� http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1574&PN=1 -

Oh, but the issue at this link has already been well settled by Bro Yousaf with almost the same conclusion of your jugglery of words in translation. BTW, has anyone not congratulated you for your sainthood by exactly following the footsteps of St. Paul (as per his own description)? Now that is no manners; for at least they should have some courtesy.

This is for the first time I am hearing it from you. You really do need to expand your horizons�.

Yes, my brother, indeed.

May be a topic of another thread. Nevertheless, open a new thread and I shall see how, I can shun off your claims.  Brother Noah graciously offered a link that details sura 86, and demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that: Jesus was worshiped as God Jesus was Crucified Jesus was Resurrected Jesus judges the dead All of this�.nice and neatly contained in Sura 86. We welcome you and any other interested parties to try their hand at refuting our exegesis. As fair warning�this Sura 86 exegesis is not for the faint of heart Muslim. It will, in fact, be very, very, very disturbing to most Muslims to learn the truth behind the classic Arabic of their holy book� Additionally�no one has ever refuted our exegesis since its inception last year. Here is the link, once again, supplied by Noah earlier� http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737 - Have fun�

Greetings Noah,

Thanks for your comments and added bonus of further advertisement of our material�

Peace apple pie

Oh my God youre obnoxious, leave me out of this.

Is someone forcing you to slavishly reply to my posts�?

If they are�please report then to the modsquad�

If anything that link proved you got nailed, and eventually people had enough of your rethoric, and didnt (as usual to your goop) want to answer to it anymore. I guess these 2 quotes says it all really, if you just understood.

Keep posting as much material from our threads as you wish�

The more you do�.the more free advertising you will give us�.thanks�

My question to you still stand however, if i could get you to take a look at it, im sure you just forgot about it. So, could you go here
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=625&am%20p;PN=1&TPN=3 - What is the question�.?

Thanks�

He is not coming back because he is here already.....

Noah wrote: the question is still (and this is the 3rd time i repeat it by repasting it into a new sheet) who is this apple pie? because im not certain, could you help me out please? He was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave/manger http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot42" target=_blank name=foot42 a=" - http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot42" target=_blank name=foot42 a=" - , with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot43" target=_blank name=foot43 a=" - http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot43" target=_blank name=foot43 a=" - He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old. http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot44" target=_blank name=foot44 a=" - http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot44" target=_blank name=foot44 a=" - He was baptized by John the Baptist. He had 12 disciples. He performed miracles and raised, from the dead. He walked on water. He was transfigured on the Mount. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc. He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys"). http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot45" target=_blank name=foot45 a=" - http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot45" target=_blank name=foot45 a=" - http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/christianity/footnote.htm#foot46" target=_blank name=foot46 a=" - He was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One" Peace Noah

I need the answer too, can you shed some light into this, Apple Pie?

Greetings amlhabibi2000,

I would like to comment on this�

He is not coming back because he is here already.....

Could you expound upon this�.?

Thanks..