Sometimes a different objection is raised. Some feel that the Bible was the Word of God, but it has been distorted and corrupted by men so that now we can no longer trust it. Can this be true?

 Let us repeat a verse from the Qur�an. But now we will discuss it from a different angle. �After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah�s revelations.��Sura 5, Al-Ma�ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.  (The Qur'an also accepts Jesus as the son of God,just as it does Adam)

 If, at the time these words were written, the Bible had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel �judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein�? Thus believers in the Qur�an accept that the Bible was uncorrupted at the time the Qur�an was written (about one thousand three hundred years ago). On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today. When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same. Certainly, the Bible has not changed since those words were written in the Qur�an saying that in the Gospel �there is guidance and light.�

 Thus, a person who believes in the Qur�an will agree that the Bible has not been corrupted and that it is still the Word of God. But even for people who do not believe in the Qur�an there is abundant proof that the Bible has not been corrupted by men since its original writing. What proof? Ancient manuscripts.

 Regarding the preserving of the Greek Scriptures (Injil) until our day, a scientist pointed out: �The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed.� (The Bible and Archaeology, by Sir Frederic Kenyon) Sir Frederic Kenyon is here expressing the widely accepted fact that we can read in the Greek Scriptures (Injil) substantially what the original writers, under inspiration, put there. There has been no gross distortion.

 Regarding the Hebrew Scriptures (Tevrat), the external proof is equally strong that they have been preserved faithfully. The ancient copyists of those scriptures were renowned for their accuracy. Today there are seventeen hundred ancient manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Bible in existence, and comparison shows them to be substantially the same. In 1947, some very ancient manuscripts were discovered in the region of the Dead Sea. They included some that were a thousand years older than any hitherto extant. Yet a comparison of these ancient manuscripts with our modern Bible shows little significant variation, especially with regard to teaching and doctrine. After examining these newly discovered ancient documents, Professor Millar Burrows said: �The general reader and student of the Bible may be satisfied to note that nothing in all this changes our understanding of the religious teachings of the Bible . . . The essential truth and the will of God revealed in the Bible, however, have been preserved unchanged through all the vicissitudes in the transmission of the text.��The Dead Sea Scrolls, by Millar Burrows.

 Is this not reasonable? Should we not expect that the Almighty God would be able to preserve his Word uncorrupted? The Bible itself says: �The green grass has dried up, the blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite.��Isaiah 40:8.

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

"Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

WOW! Putting the 'cart' before the 'horse'

Real science!

Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

 The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.  

 Sura 6:34; 10:34 

All these above texts presuppose the availability of the true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad's day.

 -Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71       

A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46

The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations

Sura 2:136 

Many luminaries of 'Islam' believe the Bible to be true:

1. Ali al Tabari (d 855) who accepted the Gospel texts

2. Al Bukhari (810-870)

3. Al Mas'udi (956)

4. Abu Ali husain bin Sina (1037)

5. Al Ghazali (1111) who did not accept his teachings

6. Ibn Khaldun (1406) ditto.

Ibn Ishaq who wrote the earliest biography (Sirat) of Muhammad. He clearly indentifies the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an as what Christians call the New Testament.

Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following. It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary (Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", translated as "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, Karachi: Oxford, 1998, pp. 103-104, bold added.)

"Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

WOW! Putting the 'cart' before the 'horse'

Real science!

Ibn Ishaq who wrote the earliest biography (Sirat) of Muhammad. He clearly indentifies the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an as what Christians call the New Testament.

Yeah, I read what you quoted. It is REALLY out of context, but I got the general idea.  

Now if Ibn Ishaq is quoting from the gospel of John (he probably quoted John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7 which foretell prophet Muhammad) that does not mean that Bible is not corrupt. When Muslim say that Bible is corrupt, we don't mean that each and every word has been changed completely. We say that many passages of the Bible are unauthentic though not all. So how do we differentiate between those passages. We group the Bible into 3 parts.
1) Those parts which match with the Quran may be the word of God. For example Duet 18:18, Ezakiel 18:20-21. They agree with Islam
2) Those parts which contradict Quran must have been added by human beings. For example prophet lot drinking wine....and then committing adultery..........with his own daughters.......twice. (Gen19:31-36). In Islam, prophets are the best of people and don't commit petty crimes. And no Muslim will ever agree that Jesus referred to Gentiles (non-Jews) as dogs (Mathew 15:25-27). And the illogical numerical/scientific contradiction also fall in this category.
3) Those parts which neither match nor contradict Quran. We don't know whether those are true or false.

All you new 19th century followers are just changing what was previously said centuries ago to fit your own belief belief, going against your own holy book and your own prophet and your own god.

Shibboleth wrote: On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today.

Shibboleth wrote: When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same.

Job 12:6

The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. (KJV)

The tents of robbers shall perish, and the assurance of those who incite God because there is no God in their hearts. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Job 31:10

Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her. (KJV)

Then let my wife grind (meal) for others and let her bake bread at another man's place. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 7:11

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. (KJV)

God is a just judge and He is not angry every day. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 23:2

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; he leadeth me beside the still waters. (KJV)

And he makes me to dwell in pastures of strength. He guides me by refreshing waters. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 23:6

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. (KJV)

Your loving kindness and compassion have pursued me all the days of my life; and I shall live in the house of the Lord for the length of days. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 46:10

Be still and know that I am God! (KJV)

Return to me and know that I am God! (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Isaiah 43:28

Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse and Israel to reproaches. (KJV)

You princes have defiled the holy place (the sanctuary); therefore I have given Jacob to the curse and Israel to shame. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Jeremiah 4:10

Then said I, ah Lord God; surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; wheras the sword reacheth unto the soul. (KJV)

Then I said, I implore you, O Lord God, truly, I have deceived this people and Jerusalem exceedingly because I have said, You will have peace, and behold, the slain sword reaches as far as the soul. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Matthew 5:3

Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)

Delighted are those who surrender to God, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Matthew 6:34

Take therefore no thought for the morrow; for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (KJV)

Now do not worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow will take care of itself. Enough for the day is its own trouble. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

John 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten son of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

And the Word took human form and dwelt (tented) among us; and we saw his preciousness (glory), a preciousness like that of an only beloved son of the Father, who is filled with loving kindness and justice. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (KJV)

All scripture that is written by the Spirit is useful for teaching, correction, right action, and for instruction in justice (piety). (Errico -- Aramaic text)

2 Peter 1:21

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

For prophecy at no time ever came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke when they were impelled by the Holy Spirit. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

1 Corinthians 7:18

Is any man called being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. (KJV)

If any man were circumcised when he was called, let him not turn to the party of the uncircumcised. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Nazarene wrote: Natassia wrote: Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."   (I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.) salaams and what of Paul?   Jesus reafirms the law and states in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=18&version=31&context=verse - Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.   but Paul nullifies the law when he states http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=11&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." also http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.   http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse - Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=16&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. So how do you think jesus {p} would think of paul making the law dissapear? leland

Have you ever try to understand several side of a shape? Do u know, each side hiding the other, because this is one thing, and you will not find the truth if you don�t try for understanding all of sides.

All of prophets are agree to each other, people are fighting to each other for them!

Law is not against the love, and love is not disappearing the law. They are one program in righteousness, for salvation. Do you need that?

Mansoor_ali wrote:    Only 1 verse of Quran is enough to prove that Bible is corrupt.    004.157 YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Here is another explicit verse speaking of Bible corruption, the Quran states that if anyone believes that Jesus died and was crucified they then follow nothing but CONJECTURE which is corruption. Which book today tells us that Jesus died and was crucified? The Bible, so hence the Quran here does call the Bible corrupt. So it can't get anymore clear than that.

See the previous verses to know "We" refers to somebody, Bible did not say "they killed Jesus�, Bible explain that this was a prepared plan that has to be done, a plan from the first, for salvation. Not a simple Murderer story, as they believed that "they" killed him. But at present, you are not looking in these verses as a love message, you plan to use of them as tool for your own religious! Don`t you?!

Shibboleth wrote:  .......... Let us repeat a verse from the Qur�an. But now we will discuss it from a different angle. �After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah�s revelations.��Sura 5, Al-Ma�ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.  (The Qur'an also accepts Jesus as the son of God,just as it does Adam)  ..................

For a believer to Quran, these are clear, and they do not argue about these verses because they can not stand against the words of God. Each of them knows well that for response to your claim needs to explain the words of God in human way, but they afraid of anger of God. Then they will attack to u, by other tools. But obviously all of their efforts are against the Quran! And this is truly �corruption�! Not in word of God, but in mind of human! but still God love them and let them to continue.....

"Have you ever try to understand several side of a shape? Do u know, each side hiding the other, because this is one thing, and you will not find the truth if you don�t try for understanding all of sides.

All of prophets are agree to each other, people are fighting to each other for them!

Law is not against the love, and love is not disappearing the law. They are one program in righteousness, for salvation. Do you need that?"

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?

PROOF THAT THE BIBLE BEEN ACCURATELY PRESEVED.

By studying the thousands of manuscripts extant in our time and comparing them with one another, we can see that the original text has been accurately passed down to us. A report published in 1971 shows that there are possibly 6,000 handwritten copies containing all or part of the Hebrew Scriptures; the oldest dates back to the third century B.C.E. Of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there are some 5,000 in Greek, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

More than 13,000 manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures are said to be available today. A study of them shows that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has also been preserved accurately, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

For example, the Institute for New Testament Textual Studies in Germany has made about 95 percent of its approximately 5,300 handwritten copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures available for scientific study, either on microfilm or in photographs. A comparison of them shows just how exact the transmission of the Bible text down to our day has been. The interval of time between the original writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures and the writing of the oldest extant papyrus manuscripts is very short, not more than 25 years.

What the Qur�ān Says About the Holy Scriptures

The Qur�ān calls the Torah and the Injīl �the Book of Enlightenment.� (Āl �Imrān [3]:184; Fāṭir [35]:25) Scores of Qur�ānic verses state that these books are from God. (Al-Baqarah [2]:89; Al-An�ām [6]:92) Concerning both the Torah and Injīl, we read: �Wherein is guidance and a light.� (Al-Mā�idah [5]:44, 46, MMP) Furthermore, Al-Mā�idah [5]:46 says about the Torah: �Therein is the (plain) command of God.� Many of the great interpreters (such as Al-Jalālayn, Al-Fakhr Al-Rāzī, Al-Ṭabarī, and Al-Bayḍāwī) acknowledge that according to the Qur�ān, the Torah is called �the Book of God� (Āl �Imrān [3]:23) and �the Book which helps to make things clear.� (Al-Ṣāffāt [37]:117) Nevertheless, some still believe that the present-day Torah and Injīl have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. But if this were true, when did this falsification take place?

From a Qur�ānic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE writing of the Qur�ān because many Qur�ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl.

(For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl �Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā� [4]:136.) The Qur�ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: �If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.� (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā� [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur�ānic verses call out to �People of the Book� (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā�idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

Yall have to be kidding me, right? That�s the best you can do? There is nothing that any one of you showed that the Bible is corrupt. When those versus are read in English, Hebrew or Arabic the meaning is still basically the same unless of course you read them in Arabic and write them in English as you did. You read it in whatever tongue you speak. Realize a major factor that has helped the Bible to become mankind�s best-known book is its availability in many languages. The Bible must speak in the language of the people in order to speak to their hearts. As you can readily see the message is still the same, with the same thought. See for yourself http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/doc_bible.htm - http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/doc_bible.htm or the one I use http://www.waterlive.org/ - http://www.waterlive.org/

Job 12:6 The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly.

خِيَامُ الْمُخَرِّبِينَ مُسْتَرِيحَةٌ،

وَالَّذِينَ يُغِيظُونَ اللهَ مُطْمَئِنُّونَ،

الَّذِينَ يَأْتُونَ بِإِلهِهِمْ فِي يَدِهِمْ!

Job 31:10 Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her.

فَلْتَطْحَنِ امْرَأَتِي لآخَرَ، وَلْيَنْحَنِ

عَلَيْهَا آخَرُونَ.

**Psalms 83:18** That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

وَيَعْلَمُوا أَنَّكَ اسْمُكَ يَهْوَهُ

وَحْدَكَ، الْعَلِيُّ عَلَى كُلِّ الأَرْضِ.

Do you read Hebrew or Greek? If not, you cannot read the early handwritten copies of the Bible, some of which are still in existence. Therefore, for you to read the Bible, someone had to put the words into a language you know, like Arabic for instance. This translating from one language to another has made it possible for more persons to read God�s Word. For example, about 300 years before Jesus lived on earth, Greek became the language most people began to speak. So the Hebrew Scriptures were put into Greek, beginning in 280 B.C.E. This early translation was called the �Septuagint.�

6:34. Walaqad kuththibat rusulun min qablika fasabaroo AAala ma kuththiboo waoothoo hatta atahum nasruna wala mubaddila likalimati Allahi walaqad jaaka min naba-i almursaleena

10:64. Lahumu albushra fee alhayati alddunya wafee al-akhirati la tabdeela likalimati Allahi thalika huwa alfawzu alAAatheemu

18:27. Waotlu ma oohiya ilayka min kitabi rabbika la mubaddila likalimatihi walan tajida min doonihi multahadan

Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wa-inna lahu lahafithoona

BTW, Mo, Jesus fulfilled the law by dying on the STAKE and being resurrected. If you knew anything about the law you would have known it was in preparation of Jesus, the �lamb of God�

Hebrews 10:1-5 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. ² Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? ³ To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, ⁴ for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.

⁵ Hence when he comes into the world he says: ��Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.

Again your incorrect Mo, Paul does not abrogate or cancel (Unlike the Quran, you will not find abrogating in God�s Holy Bible) but the Law was fulfilled, Judo-Christians were now no longer under the law covenant. It seems that you have been misinformed .
 

��Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?��

You are waaaaay of course again Mo, after Jesus died a sacrificial death the law was fulfilled, completed. Paul was a Jew by birth but followed and practiced Christianity like Jesus 12 apostles and his many followers.   

"Again your incorrect Mo, Paul does not abrogate or cancel (Unlike the Quran, you will not find abrogating in God�s Holy Bible) but the Law was fulfilled, Judo-Christians were now no longer under the law covenant. It seems that you have been misinformed .
 

��Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?��

You are waaaaay of course again Mo, after Jesus died a sacrificial death the law was fulfilled, completed. Paul was a Jew by birth but followed and practiced Christianity like Jesus 12 apostles and his many followers."

**Psalms 83:18** That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

"BTW, Mo, Jesus fulfilled the law by dying on the STAKE and being resurrected. If you knew anything about the law you would have known it was in preparation of Jesus, the �lamb of God�

Once again, point out the verses in the Old Testament that prophesy that God would send himself to earth in human form to be a blood sacrifice so that his perpetual covenants would no longer matter. And the verses that state that God gave the Laws to Moses ONLY to prepare for the coming of Jesus. 

Hebrews 10:1-5 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. ² Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? ³ To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, ⁴ for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.

⁵ Hence when he comes into the world he says: ��Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.

Shibboleth wrote: . A report published in 1971 shows that there are possibly 6,000 handwritten copies containing all or part of the Hebrew Scriptures;

Shibboleth wrote:  the oldest dates back to the third century B.C.E. Of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there are some 5,000 in Greek, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

The oldest is over 200 years from Jesus times and you consider this a proof

For us muslims , this no where near good enough to be accepted as authenticate source

Muslims scholars rejects hadiths that have far better authenticity than 200 years gap

Shibboleth wrote: More than 13,000 manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures are said to be available today. A study of them shows that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has also been preserved accurately, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

Which language did Jesus speak ? and Which language were the scriptures sent with ?

Are you familiar with the greek proverb that says

" IF YOU WANT TO BE A LIAR , BE A TRANSLATOR "

Shibboleth wrote: For example, the Institute for New Testament Textual Studies in Germany has made about 95 percent of its approximately 5,300 handwritten copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures available for scientific study, either on microfilm or in photographs. A comparison of them shows just how exact the transmission of the Bible text down to our day has been. The interval of time between the original writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures and the writing of the oldest extant papyrus manuscripts is very short, not more than 25 years.

Again way far from good enough for authenticity of a text with that importance

Shibboleth wrote: Nevertheless, some still believe that the present-day Torah and Injīl have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. But if this were true, when did this falsification take place?

Throughout the years this been happening , before Quran was revealed , after it was revealed, and in our moderns times

Did you ever wonder why there're 'NEW EDITIONS" of the bible, while there're none of the Qur'an ?

Shibboleth wrote: From a Qur�ānic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE writing of the Qur�ān because many Qur�ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl.

This is a very false statement, Qur'an clearly states in several occasions that Torah and Injil have been corrupted , as was pointed to you in another post

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stated this , if you believe in Qur'an's authenticity , then you believe What He said

If you don't believe in Qur'an authenticity's, then the Qur'anic viewpoint is of no importance to you

So which one is it?

(For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl �Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā� [4]:136.) The Qur�ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: �If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.� (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā� [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur�ānic verses call out to �People of the Book� (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā�idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

Shibboleth wrote: Likewise, no corruption could possibly have occurred AFTER the writing of the Qur�ān, since a comparison of our modern-day Holy Scriptures with manuscripts of the Torah and the Injīl written FOUR or FIVE centuries before the writing of the Qur�ān shows that there have been no changes, or corruption.

I suggest you revise this statement, a small revision of the current version of the bible and a revision that's only 200-300 years old , would show you clearly the differences

Shibboleth wrote: These manuscripts are available in public libraries and museums.

Which public libraries , and which museums ?

do you have any document that dates back to the times of Jesus ?

Shibboleth wrote: If you have a copy of the Bible, you are far from alone. In whole or in part, the Bible has been published in more than 2,300 languages and thus is available to more than 90 percent of the world�s population. On the average, more than a million Bibles are distributed each week! Billions of copies of either the whole Bible or part of it have been produced. Surely, there is no other book like the Bible.

There could be millions and millions copies printed , if you go to any hotel room in the USA there's a copy of the bible

But who reads it, how many times ?

who reads the bible at least 5 times a day like muslims read the Quran ?

Who memorizes the bible by heart like Muslims do ? 

Qur'an is the only book that's being memorized by heart by millions of people around the world

Shibboleth wrote: DO WE HAVE THE BIBLE IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM TODAY? UNEQUIVOCALLY, YES! IS THERE AN �ORIGINAL BOOK� THAT SHOWS THE CORRUPTION OF GOD�S HOLY WRITINGS? EMPHATICALLY NO!

All the different copies of the bible and the differences between it shows the corruption

Shibboleth wrote: EVEN THE QUR�AN TESTIFIES TO THAT FACT!

Where does the Qur'an say that the bible/OT is not corrupted ? this is a very false statement

Regards

 ⁴How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

 ⁵And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

 ¹⁹And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

 ²⁰And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

 ²¹And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

 ²²And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Hi,

Although you are kind, I did not find my answers.

If the Bible was changed or corrupted in the time of Quran, why the Quran talks about that and ask the prophet to tell that for his people,

See:

He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. (144) And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying to the Muhammad-s): Take the better therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers. (145) I shall turn away from My revelations those who magnify themselves wrongfully in the earth, and if they see each token believe it not, and if they see the way of righteousness choose it nor for (their) way, and if they see the way of error choose if for (their) way. That is because they deny Our revelations and are used to disregard them. (146)

If we want do not complicate anything we should accept that "All things� means all things!

And, taking the better needs to be something not better but "there is something" any way. Isn�t it?!

and you tell us that Bible is changed, and by this, as if you are about erasing the message of these verses from your mind and Muslim people`s mind! If disagree, tell me how you use this verses and what is the reason of Quran to talk about these things?!What is the message of these words for you? Knowing that there was something in thousands years ago and u cannot know what that was?! What is the message of the first verses of Al-Baqara , when says :

الٓمٓ (١) ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبُ لَا رَيۡبَ‌ۛ فِيهِ‌ۛ هُدً۬ى لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٢) ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقۡنَـٰهُمۡ يُنفِقُونَ (٣) وَٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ وَبِٱلۡأَخِرَةِ هُمۡ يُوقِنُونَ (٤)

Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4)

Is she talking about believed only in that which revealed unto Muhammad? Or both, in that which revealed unto Muhammad and that which revealed before him? As you see, Quran will not lead everyone who does not really believe in that which revealed before Muhammad. Then if there is not any unchanged Bible or Torah, how we can believe in them?!!! Believe in something that is not in our hands?!!! Believe in books that do not exist?!!!  

On the other hand , isn`t it the same that you tell: �explains how the Qur'an is to prevail previous scriptures�

مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَمُهَيۡمِنًا عَلَيۡهِ‌ۖ

Puting the Quran in a battle against other scriptures, or knowing the harmony?

Is the phrase:� Mohaimen Alaihe� (guardian over it) in the meaning of something �better�? Or this is something more powerful to be Guardian of the others? You cannot answer: both!  Because one of them is the meaning of word �Guardian� means something which support and protect from damages, isn`t it? In these verses Quran is talking about herself who confirmed the previous scriptures and Also, Protect them from changes and damages.

Is it complexity of my explanation?!!  Or this is only the meaning of the words of Quran?

And thanks for your advice, I read all of the Quran previously and use to read it nearly every day at present. And I did not find any better explanation to Quran, unless the holy Bible.

You cannot find even one verse in Quran that says Bible is changed, but every day I hear from Muslims that Bible is changed and we cannot trust on this book. Why?!! This is not for any reason except, trust in something exclude the words of God; believe in someone who is not the Creator, but a creature just like us. As Quran says everybody who does not believe in the book of Moses will be in the hell:

أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ۬ مِّن رَّبِّهِۦ وَيَتۡلُوهُ شَاهِدٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ وَمِن قَبۡلِهِۦ كِتَـٰبُ مُوسَىٰٓ إِمَامً۬ا وَرَحۡمَةً‌ۚ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦ‌ۚ وَمَن يَكۡفُرۡ بِهِۦ مِنَ ٱلۡأَحۡزَابِ فَٱلنَّارُ مَوۡعِدُهُ ۥ‌ۚ فَلَا تَكُ فِى مِرۡيَةٍ۬ مِّنۡهُ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ٱلۡحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَڪۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ (١٧

.....and before it was the Book of Moses, an example and a mercy? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not. (17

And in the next example:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرۡسَلَ رَسُولَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلۡحَقِّ لِيُظۡهِرَهُ ۥ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِۦ‌ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَهِيدً۬ا (٢٨)

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a Witness. (28)

This is talking about God`s will to prevail over all religion, may we say prevail the religion Islam (as the strategy or methods of Muhammad at the first years of Islam) to other fake religions which were in that time. But is not talking about prevail of Quran on Bible !!!!!

You wrote: �Qur'an was sent as the final guidance, to prevail what was sent with previous Prophets�

As your opinion, I respect that, but it�s not from Quran, only understanding from some other books.

Because Quran says had been sent for confirmation what was sent with previous Prophets, as you read it in the previous lines upward, not to prevail!

When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some letters which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

The New Testament

Autographs

45- 95 A.D. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

Manuscripts

There are over 5,600 early Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament that are still in existence. The oldest manuscripts were written on papyrus and the later manuscripts were written on leather called parchment.

�         125 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. It is designated "p 52" and contains a small portion of John 18. (The "p" stands for papyrus.)

�         200 A.D. Bodmer p 66 a papyrus manuscript which contains a large part of the Gospel of John.

�         200 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 46 contains the Pauline Epistles and Hebrews.

�         225 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus p 75 contains the Gospels of Luke and John.

�         250-300 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 45 contains portions of the four Gospels and Acts.

�         350 A.D. Codex Sinaiticus contains the entire New Testament and almost the entire Old Testament in Greek. It was discovered by a German scholar Tisendorf in 1856 at an Orthodox monastery at Mt. Sinai.

�         350 A.D. Codex Vaticanus: {B} is an almost complete New Testament. It was cataloged as being in the Vatican Library since 1475

�        How was the New Testament canon determined?

�         The Early church had three criteria for determining what books were to be included or excluded from the Canon of the New Testament.

�         First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles.

�         Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative.

�         Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.

�         The gospel of Thomas is not included in the Canon of the New Testament for the following reasons.

�         The gospel of Thomas fails the test of Apostolic authority. None of the early church fathers from Clement to Irenaeus ever quoted from the gospel of Thomas. This indicates that they either did not know of it or that they rejected it as spurious. In either case, the early church fathers fail to support the gospel of Thomas' claim to have been written by the apostle. It was believed to by written around 140 A.D. There is no evidence to support its purported claim to be written by the Apostle Thomas himself.

�         The gospel of Thomas fails to conform to the rule of faith. It purports to contain 114 "secret sayings" of Jesus. Some of these are very similar to the sayings of Jesus recorded in the Four Gospels. For example the gospel of Thomas quotes Jesus as saying, "A city built on a high hill cannot be hidden." This reads the same as Matthew's Gospel except that high is added. But Thomas claims that Jesus said, "Split wood; I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there." That concept is pantheistic. Thomas ends with the following saying that denies women salvation unless they are some how changed into being a man. "Let Mary go away from us, because women are not worthy of life." Jesus is quoted as saying, "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven."

�         The gospel of Thomas fails the test of continuous usage and acceptance. The lack of manuscript evidence plus the failure of the early church fathers to quote from it or recognize it shows that it was not used or accepted in the early Church. Only two manuscripts are known of this "gospel." Until 1945 only a single fifth-century copy translation in Coptic had been found. Then in 1945 a Greek manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas was found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt. This compares very poorly to the thousands of manuscripts that authenticate the Four Gospels.

�          

If you want know better about that continue by refer to this address:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.html

but this Book is the same that most of Christians believes that and are preaching and teaching that at present. When Quran was revealed , there were thousands of this book in all of the world and as Quran says : in their hands.

Then if Quran confirm the Bible, definitely she does not talking about an invisible book! God is wise enough to find out what is talking about!

appologize and happy for my mistake and there are many truth seekers here, thanks to God for all of you

Moses wrote: Hi,

Hi Moses

Moses wrote: Although you are kind, I did not find my answers.

By God's will you will find your answers by me or someone else

I'm currently travelling, hence the slow replies

I also have asked several questions which it seems you didn't answer like :

1- So you believe Jesus is a Prophet , He's not a God, or Son of God ?

2- Since you're asking this question, do you believe that Qur'an is God's words then ?

and thus following the bible because you say the Qur'an asks believers to follow it ?

Now to your questions 

Moses wrote: If the Bible was changed or corrupted in the time of Quran, why the Quran talks about that and ask the prophet to tell that for his people, See:    قَالَ يَـٰمُوسَىٰٓ إِنِّى ٱصۡطَفَيۡتُكَ عَلَى ٱلنَّاسِ بِرِسَـٰلَـٰتِى وَبِكَلَـٰمِى فَخُذۡ مَآ ءَاتَيۡتُكَ وَكُن مِّنَ ٱلشَّـٰكِرِينَ (١٤٤) وَڪَتَبۡنَا لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡأَلۡوَاحِ مِن ڪُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ مَّوۡعِظَةً۬ وَتَفۡصِيلاً۬ لِّكُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَخُذۡهَا بِقُوَّةٍ۬ وَأۡمُرۡ قَوۡمَكَ يَأۡخُذُواْ بِأَحۡسَنِہَا‌ۚ سَأُوْرِيكُمۡ دَارَ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقِينَ (١٤٥) سَأَصۡرِفُ عَنۡ ءَايَـٰتِىَ ٱلَّذِينَ يَتَكَبَّرُونَ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ ڪُلَّ ءَايَةٍ۬ لَّا يُؤۡمِنُواْ بِہَا وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلرُّشۡدِ لَا يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلۡغَىِّ يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ بِأَنَّہُمۡ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَٔايَـٰتِنَا وَكَانُواْ عَنۡہَا غَـٰفِلِينَ (١٤٦     He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. (144) And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying to the Muhammad-s): Take the better therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers. (145) I shall turn away from My revelations those who magnify themselves wrongfully in the earth, and if they see each token believe it not, and if they see the way of righteousness choose it nor for (their) way, and if they see the way of error choose if for (their) way. That is because they deny Our revelations and are used to disregard them. (146)       If we want do not complicate anything we should accept that "All things� means all things! And, taking the better needs to be something not better but "there is something" any way. Isn�t it?! and you tell us that Bible is changed, and by this, as if you are about erasing the message of these verses from your mind and Muslim people`s mind! If disagree, tell me how you use this verses and what is the reason of Quran to talk about these things?!What is the message of these words for you? Knowing that there was something in thousands years ago and u cannot know what that was?!

you're quoting Surat Al-A'araaf ( 7 ) verses 144-146

Where exactly did you get this translation that says ( saying to Muhammad ) ?

There's no mention in these verses of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) , even continuing several verses after it has no mention of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) it's talking about Prophet Moses ( PBUH )

Anyone who understand proper arabic will know this ,

Also below are three of the most popular english translations to the meaning of the Qur'an , you will find it confirms what I'm saying

[Shakir 7:145] And We ordained for him in the tablets admonition of every kind and clear explanation of all things; so take hold of them with firmness and enjoin your people to take hold of what is best thereof; I will show you the abode of the transgressors.
[Yusufali 7:145] And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts: soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked,- (How they lie desolate)."
[Pickthal 7:145] And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying): Take the better (course made clear) therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers.

If you still have a question after knowing this , please rephrase it

Moses wrote: What is the message of the first verses of Al-Baqara , when says : الٓمٓ (١) ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبُ لَا رَيۡبَ‌ۛ فِيهِ‌ۛ هُدً۬ى لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٢) ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقۡنَـٰهُمۡ يُنفِقُونَ (٣) وَٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ وَبِٱلۡأَخِرَةِ هُمۡ يُوقِنُونَ (٤) Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4)   Is she talking about believed only in that which revealed unto Muhammad? Or both, in that which revealed unto Muhammad and that which revealed before him?

Qura'an talks about those who believe in what was revealed to Prohpet Muhammad and all the Prophets before him ( PBUT )

Moses wrote: As you see, Quran will not lead everyone who does not really believe in that which revealed before Muhammad. Then if there is not any unchanged Bible or Torah, how we can believe in them?!!! Believe in something that is not in our hands?!!! Believe in books that do not exist?!!!

We believe in the books that was sent to Abraham, even though it's not available now, nor ( AFAIK ) was available at the times of the Prophet Muhammed ( PBUH )

We believe Adam ( PBUH ) was created without parents, did we see this happen ?

We believe Moses split the sea, did we see this happen ?

This is what differentiates a muslim from people of other beliefs / thoughts , such as hindus, buddhist ...etc. whom wouldn't believe in these revelations at all.

Moses wrote: On the other hand , isn`t it the same that you tell: �explains how the Qur'an is to prevail previous scriptures�   مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَمُهَيۡمِنًا عَلَيۡهِ‌ۖ   Puting the Quran in a battle against other scriptures, or knowing the harmony?

As mentioned above, Qur'an changes the practices, same as Jesus ( PBUH ) changed the practices that was before him

There's no battles, this why the Qur'an is endorsing the existence of these revelations

Moses wrote: Is the phrase:� Mohaimen Alaihe� (guardian over it) in the meaning of something �better�? Or this is something more powerful to be Guardian of the others? You cannot answer: both!  Because one of them is the meaning of word �Guardian� means something which support and protect from damages, isn`t it? In these verses Quran is talking about herself who confirmed the previous scriptures and Also, Protect them from changes and damages. Is it complexity of my explanation?!!  Or this is only the meaning of the words of Quran?

There's nothing is this verse that mentions protecting it from change, again where do you get this from ? Do you read it in arabic or english ? 

Moses wrote: And thanks for your advice, I read all of the Quran previously and use to read it nearly every day at present. And I did not find any better explanation to Quran, unless the holy Bible.

I'm not sure I understand the above phrase

Moses wrote: You cannot find even one verse in Quran that says Bible is changed, but every day I hear from Muslims that Bible is changed and we cannot trust on this book. Why?!!

Because as mentioned before in several verses, the Qur'an speaks about the changing of the old and new testament by the people it was sent to

Moses wrote: As Quran says everybody who does not believe in the book of Moses will be in the hell:

This is the islamic view as well, everyone is requested to believe in ALL books sent by God , whether to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David ( PBUT )

The question to you is , where is the book of Moses ?

In the information you put below there's no mention of the old testament, when it was compiled, any references to it

Moses wrote: And in the next example: هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرۡسَلَ رَسُولَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلۡحَقِّ لِيُظۡهِرَهُ ۥ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِۦ‌ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَهِيدً۬ا (٢٨) He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a Witness. (28) This is talking about God`s will to prevail over all religion, may we say prevail the religion Islam (as the strategy or methods of Muhammad at the first years of Islam) to other fake religions which were in that time. But is not talking about prevail of Quran on Bible !!!!!

Moses wrote: You wrote: �Qur'an was sent as the final guidance, to prevail what was sent with previous Prophets� As your opinion, I respect that, but it�s not from Quran, only understanding from some other books. Because Quran says had been sent for confirmation what was sent with previous Prophets, as you read it in the previous lines upward, not to prevail!

The verse is clear that the teachings of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) is to prevail previous teachings,

It confirms these teachings exists, and requests believers to believe it existed, and to follow the new teachings

This is what the Qur'an says, and this is what the person who the Qur'an was sent through taught, which is how we should understand Qur'an , in the light of what Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) taugh

That said, what are we discussing exactly ?

Moses wrote: When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some letters which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

Moses wrote:    First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles. �         Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative. �         Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.

Moses wrote: but this Book is the same that most of Christians believes that and are preaching and teaching that at present.

This is a big statement, can you refer to a copy of this book ( which you say is in the vatican library ) and a comparison between it and current version of bible ? 

Moses wrote: When Quran was revealed , there were thousands of this book in all of the world and as Quran says : in their hands.

Excellent, so can you provide a few copies of these thousands that dates to the time of the Qur'an and compare to each other, and to the copy in the vatican library ?

Moses wrote: Then if Quran confirm the Bible, definitely she does not talking about an invisible book!

Again, you send me links and statements from so-called scholars but I�m still waiting for someone to send me something that out dates the Dead Sea Scrolls authentication of the Holy Bible, the oldest manuscripts that CONFIRMS what we call the BIBLE in it�s purest form today September 19, 2009.  

Over time, some 900 separate scrolls were found. They date from the third century BCE through the first century CE. My word just Google it, you�re googling everything else!

Just sending a link or someone�s opinion on the subject just doesn�t cut it! Present facts not opinions! Can you find these links or statements at a museum, no! Do they date back before the time of Muhammad, no!

You have proven again in your world, opinions are what matters not facts not real solid evidence. Go to the Qumran Library, the library of Congress, the British Museum, Israel Museum or Google it from the comfort of your home. That�s PROOF! Not links and debates, those are ONLY opinions, one-sided because I can�t ask them question etc�

Read with an open mind **Pay specific attention to #10 and #25**

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html - http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html - http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

 
The Dead Sea Scrolls, which date back to the events described in the New Testament, have added to our understanding of the Jewish background of Christianity. Scholars have pointed to similarities between beliefs and practices outlined in the Qumran literature and those of early Christians. These parallels include comparable rituals of baptism, communal meals, and property. Most interesting is the parallel organizational structures: the sectarians divided themselves into twelve tribes led by twelve chiefs, similar to the structure of the early Church, with twelve apostles who, according to Jesus, would to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Many scholars believe that both the literature of Qumran and the early Christian teachings stem from a common stream within Judaism and do not reflect a direct link between the Qumran community and the early Christians.

The Bible as we have it today is close to those scientifically proven manuscript that dates back HUNDREDS of years before Muhammad�s birth, 100�s! Show something that dates back that far that PROVES God�s word is corrupt, all sixty six books of the Bible! Even the Prophet knew not to go THERE!

Now! If you want to make this interesting because you�re not going to be able to send me ANYTHING that out-dates the �DEAD SEA SCROLL� but read it, so many things you can learn.

Send me 3 scriptures that YOU think are corrupt and why and let us discuss it, particularly those dealing with Muhammad.

�The kingdom of God will be taken from you (Jews) and be given to a nation producing its fruits.� (Matthew 21:43) Rebuilt temple destroyed in 70C.E. (Matthew 23:37, 38)
 

�God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.��Acts 10:34, 35.

�God has granted repentance for the purpose of life to people of the nations also.�� (Acts 11:18)

Acts 2:17-18

يَقُولُ اللهُ: وَيَكُونُ فِي الأَيَّامِ الأَخِيرَةِ أَنِّي أَسْكُبُ مِنْ رُوحِي عَلَى كُلِّ بَشَرٍ، فَيَتَنَبَّأُ بَنُوكُمْ وَبَنَاتُكُمْ، وَيَرَى شَبَابُكُمْ رُؤًى وَيَحْلُمُ شُيُوخُكُمْ أَحْلاَمًا.

وَعَلَى عَبِيدِي أَيْضًا وَإِمَائِي أَسْكُبُ مِنْ رُوحِي فِي تِلْكَ الأَيَّامِ فَيَتَنَبَّأُونَ.

Isn't the true question whether the Bible was ever the Word of God?

"or do you mean what was revealed to Jesus ( PBUH ) Al Injeel, which is what people call what they have now and think of it as it is 'The new testament'"

Actually, the New Testament is not the Injeel, nor is it the Gospel which Jesus was spreading. The Gospel of Jesus was an oral Gospel and as far as is known there is no written account.

Jewish opponents of Christianity never challenged the powerful works described in the Gospels. Read and find out why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri

These fragments are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeography - palaeographically dated to the first half of the 3rd century, 3^rd century! Same New Testament or Christian Greek scriptures we have today in the Bible! PEOPLE I can prove this all day long. It�s God�s word! Let go of what you been told, lies. I�m showing you proof. Again, waaaaaay before your messengers time. FACTS! PROOF! SCIENCE!

Shasta's, member_profile.asp?PF=48942&FID=10 - Do you have blind faith in the face of all proof or you still believe there are no written accounts?

Here are 25 Things Muslims don't want other Muslims to know about the BIBLE below......it�s just too, too hard to swallow. But swallow now or choke later, YOU decide.
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html - http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

The Great Prophet Jeremiah! Whether you like it or not! Like Paul, he was heaven sent!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html - http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html

moses wrote: When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

This still means nothing. If you would take a look at the link

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/

You will see a list and dates of a trail of confusion. This confusion is based upon the fact that your own doctors have been chasing their tails for two thousand years trying to define a �bible�. 

The next link clearly demonstrates the confusion is �mass� confusion when you take the OT and NT into account with respect to the time before and after Islam.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/canonages.html - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/canonages.html

Keep in mind that it was not until the last few centuries that your faith has come closer to agreement to what makes up your holy book. Even now you have some who want nothing but the KJV as the official version of Gods word in English.

The New Testament Autographs 45- 95 A.D. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

A dating alone does not necessarily give us the conclusion your source is trying to imply. As an example, Galatians is dated about 50 CE. Wow! We have a letter from Paul that gets us to a time close to Jesus! Or do we. Christians love to brag and boast about MS dating, but usually much is left out and I also believe their theologians who know better mislead their flocks.

Galatians is dated to about 50 CE, the problem is that the earliest MS, P46, dates to 200 CE. That is 15 decades, 150 years, between the time the letter is dated, and an actual copy of the letter that remains. So we have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a letter that Paul wrote. Keep in mind I am not addressing the theological issues, only the notion if a dated MS and what it means and does not mean. So when you open your bible and read Galatians, you are not actually reading what Paul wrote, you are reading a second century document that represents a transmission of copies that extend back 150 years earlier.

There was no method for transmission, there was no critical methodology for preserving Paul�s word in any accurate way, there is no way to reconstruct what the copy our MS came from looked like. The point is, no one can say, with any certainty, if Galatians is a word for word accurate representation of what Paul wrote. Christian literature is full of accounts of people falsifying accounts and writing in other people�s names. In fact, half of Paul�s work is now hotly contested as forgeries.

Manuscripts There are over 5,600 early Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament that are still in existence. The oldest manuscripts were written on papyrus and the later manuscripts were written on leather called parchment.

 

 

The problem with this claim is that the complete MSS do not get you any closer than 400 years to late second temple.

 

�         125 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. It is designated "p 52" and contains a small portion of John 18. (The "p" stands for papyrus.)

 

P52 is not a NT MS, it is a fragment.

http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/johnpap.html

 

You are still in the same position as with Galatians.

 

�         200 A.D. Bodmer p 66 a papyrus manuscript which contains a large part of the Gospel of John.

 

I would not say a large part, it is also segments, (John 1:1-6:11; 6:35-14:26, 29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4, 6-7; 16:10-20:20, 22-23; 20:25-21:9, 12, 17) and does not have the story of the adulteress. Now that is a bit strange.

  http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/P66.html - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/P66.html

 

 

�         200 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 46 contains the Pauline Epistles and Hebrews.

 

Incomplete, and we are still back to my example of Galatians.

 

 

 

�         225 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus p 75 contains the Gospels of Luke and John.

 

(Luke 3:18-22; 3:33 - 4:2; 4:34 - 5:10; 5:37 - 6:4; 6:10 - 7:32, 35-39, 41-43; 7:46 - 9:2; 9:4 - 17:15; 17:19 - 18:18; 22:4 - 24:53; John 1:1 - 11:45, 48-57; 12:3 - 13:1, 8-9; 14:8-29; 15:7-8.)

Interesting note: The manuscript does not include the pericope of the adulteress (7:53 - 8:11), making it the second earliest witness (next to http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/P66.html - - 66 ) not to include this spurious passage. (this is one of those mistakes that entered into �bible�).

 

Keep in mind that we are still at the problem as demonstrated with Galatians.

 

http://www.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/tc_pap75.html -  

 

 

 

 

 

�         250-300 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 45 contains portions of the four Gospels and Acts.

 

Here is an image.

 

http://www.bsw.org/project/biblica/bibl82/images/Carta.jpg -  

 

Again, we have another example of an incomplete copy copied from lost copies removed 140 years or so from their actual time. We are still at the Galatians example.

 

�         350 A.D. Codex Sinaiticus contains the entire New Testament and almost the entire Old Testament in Greek. It was discovered by a German scholar Tisendorf in 1856 at an Orthodox monastery at Mt. Sinai.

 

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/sinai.html -  

Saying it was complete would not be the complete truth. The contents are of interest: (It has both the Old and New Testaments. The New Testament contains Four Gospels, Acts, Catholic Epistles and Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews), Apocalypse, the Epistle of Barnabas and Shepherd of Hermas.)

So is it reasonable to say that the holy spirit has not yet inspired Christians after 300 years to know what a cannon is and is not? Something else of interest:

 

�Matthew 16:2 f. is omitted, Mark ends at 16:8, Luke 22:43 f. was marked as spurious by the first corrector, but these signs were canceled by the third corrector. John 5:4 and the Pericope de adultera are omitted. The doxology of Romans comes after 16:23 verse 24 being omitted. Hebrews follow immediately after II Thessalonians.�

It looks like the holy spirit is having some trouble guiding the faithful. And there is that story of the adulteress again. So after 300 years your scholars do not know if the story actually happened or not. I find it interesting that if we look at the evidences your source puts up, it really creates more problems for your claim.

�         350 A.D. Codex Vaticanus: {B} is an almost complete New Testament. It was cataloged as being in the Vatican Library since 1475

 

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/vatican.html -  

 

A 4^th century book. Not only is the adulteress story still omitted, but you are no closer to proving your claim for a continuity going back to Jesus.

 

-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

'Shasta's, http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=48942&FID=10 -

So member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 - Andalus , to make a long story short the Bible HAS been persevered which pre-dates �Islam� by a long shot! What we have today is what was available before Muhammad�s birth; I�ll even work with you regarding the fragment portions to keep it simple. I�m not going play around with semantics with you; it�s too frivolous to say the least and time consuming. But, even if the MS go back to the 6^th century, I�ll even say that ALTHOUGH it doesn�t, what has been corrupted? Let�s skip threw rhetoric. You tell me what�s been corrupted regarding the coming of Muhammad in the Bible that Muslims/Christians/Jews need to know. Let�s start with his prophethood.

The most important issue is whether Muhammad is a legitimate / true prophet in the tradition of the Biblical revelation of Moses in the Torah. In particular, the issue whether he is announced in the scriptures:

This translation is similar to the one in the 3^rd Century for starters. If you�re using the KJV which I suspect you are almost 2000 years later, the message is the same.

I need YOU not a link to Explain how this applies to Muhammad; Deut. 18:18-20 �A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.�

(Side note for me- Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)

Shibboleth wrote: So member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 - Andalus , to make a long story short the Bible HAS been persevered which pre-dates �Islam� by a long shot!

Dear Shibboleth

I'm not sure how you make such statements

the bible is mainly the old testament and new testament

Even if the dates you mention is valid and even if the dead sea facts you posted here

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html are valid,

it means the earliest reference we have of the old testament is written in the period of 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D ( this is what the reference you posted says , fact 13 )

This means it's written at least a thousand year after Moses ( PBUH ), if not, please tell us how much time is there between Moses and Jesus ( PBUH )

Do you expect a sane person to trust that scrolls written after a thousand year, ( with text that was not publicly and openly recited on daily basis like muslims do with the Qur'an ) , remained exactly the same ?

Shibboleth wrote: What we have today is what was available before Muhammad�s birth; I�ll even work with you regarding the fragment portions to keep it simple.

The table here that someone posted seems to work the fragment portions
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/canonages.html

Shibboleth wrote: I�m not going play around with semantics with you; it�s too frivolous to say the least and time consuming. But, even if the MS go back to the 6th century, I�ll even say that ALTHOUGH it doesn�t,

Then which century it dates back to ? 3rd ?

Shibboleth wrote: what has been corrupted?

again you're asking the question the other way around,

It's the basics of debating that if someone makes a claim, it's their task to prove it

if you want us ( or any person muslim or not ) to believe your claim that the Old testament, and the new testament hasn't been altered, it's your task to prove so

So far all what you presented are reference that all of it at it's earliest have huge time gaps between the text written, and the sources, not to mention the language differences and the percentage of the text available

Shibboleth wrote: Let�s skip threw rhetoric. You tell me what�s been corrupted regarding the coming of Muhammad in the Bible that Muslims/Christians/Jews need to know. Let�s start with his prophethood.

I prefer to start with the creation if this world

Does it say in the bible you read that God created the universe in six days then rested ?

I don't like to follow a God that rests

What if I need God someday and find out that God is resting? what shall I do then ? depend on myself ?

I started some threads trying to understand some puzzling issues regarding christianity, maybe you can shed your input in it

Care to explain the original sin ? trinity ?

Shibboleth wrote: The most important issue is whether Muhammad is a legitimate / true prophet in the tradition of the Biblical revelation of Moses in the Torah. In particular, the issue whether he is announced in the scriptures:

The scriptures which the earliest references to it is over a thousand year after it was revealed ?

Nevertheless, if you want to discuss this, please start a new topic

Shibboleth wrote: This translation is similar to the one in the 3rd Century for starters. If you�re using the KJV which I suspect you are almost 2000 years later, the message is the same.

It would be useful to tell us which 'version' you use and consider the bible and in which language, so we can refer to it when speaking with you

Best Regards

Long story short, Muslims can choose to reject the historical evidence for the Gospel's fidelity. You can choose to reject both the secular and early Church father�s accounts that support the Gospel claims. You can even choose to reject archaeological findings that confirm the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. Yet, how can you reject your own Qur'anic and Hadithic affirmations of both the Gospel message and its existence in an UNCORRUPTED form during the life of Muhammad? That�s BLASPHEMY to the

10^th POWER!

Besides, the same standard used by Muslims against the Bible or Gospels needs to be applied to the Qur�an itself. Muslims do not have the original Qur�an�not even an original copy of the Uthmanic codex! That�s the pot calling the kettle BLACK!

Unlike the Qur�an, variant copies of the Gospels were not burned, so the original text can be reconstructed in its entirety as shown. But, burning your own �revelations� sounds suspect to me. Why burn your own revelations unless its source is not divine, or its verses are Satanic and therefore prone to human error.

Your source (Deedat) suggests, on page 14 of his booklet that if a Muslim should ever hand his publication to a missionary or Jehovah's Witness and request a written reply, he will never see them again - let alone ever get a reply. Here�s your CHANCE!

Maybe the admin will allow me to post a response to your message.

Shibboleth wrote: So http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 -

Yes�making long stories short�this is equivalent to the use of �yada yada yada� from the Seinfeld series. This gives the power to by pass any inconveniences. This is also called �handwaving�, comparable to what magicians do before the trick. You my disingenuous friend, are attempting to handwave your way through the discussion. I am not sure what evidence you have found, but so far what you have presented falls very short of any claim of �bible has been preserved�.  Proof by assertion is not proof, it is a fallacy. You have no clue about the origins of your gospel accounts, where they came from, who narrated them, or what the original stories looked like. If you assert that you do, then you are either a liar or ignorant.

I gave a link to a table that shows clearly all of the tail chasing your fellow worshipers were doing with regards to a canon. How can you make such an absurd claim to preservation when it took 2000 years to figure out what is a canon?

What we have today is what was available before Muhammad�s birth;

What you have before the birth of Prophet Muhammad (saw) are fragments, copies of copies of copies of copies of some original (without the first few copies in the first 150 years you have no clue as to what the earliest copies looked like). So, for you claim, I respond, so what? What does it mean and what does it prove? In light of what I have shown, it means nothing.

I�ll even work with you regarding the fragment portions to keep it simple.

LOL�..You have no choice. You will work with me? What else could you do, deny they are fragments? Pretend you are a fool or crazy? I mean really. A bunch of fragments were presented that were themselves removed by at least 150 years from the original. Keep it simple? This fact alone sinks your ship!

I�m not going play around with semantics with you; it�s too frivolous to say the least and time consuming.

I am with you�lets not engage in semantics. But do not hide behind strawmen to deflect from having to deal with the tons of problems I have pointed out in your evidence.

But, even if the MS go back to the 6th century, I�ll even say that ALTHOUGH it doesn�t, what has been corrupted?

This is incoherent drivel. You have a collection of MS used by your doctors to conjure up a canon. The MSS become more uniform the later in date because professional scribes were used, vs. the times before 350CE when scribes were normally volunteers. The earliest MSS have a high rate of variants, rather verses and words that differ from MS to MS. These MSS were not all collected and catalogued as today; they were separated by region and time period.

The early copies are just that, COPIES. Copies removed from the point of origin by at least 100 to 150 years. So you have a HUGE gap in the transmission, without ANY way to reconstruct the copies your copies came from. As a statement of fact, you cannot say with any certainty how closely your early MSS match the point of origin for the source. So for a moment, lets forget about finding corruption in your current MS sources. What we can say with the evidence before us is that you are in no position to make claims with any element of confidence about Jesus or his path during late second temple period.

An example of a �corruption� in your bible, the story of the adulteress is not found in ANY of your early MSS witnesses. The story is not there. Any rational human would admit that the story was a later insertion at the hands of scribes.

(you provided me with that example when I took a look at the fragment evidence you presented, thank you for that information!)

Let�s skip threw rhetoric. You tell me what�s been corrupted regarding the coming of Muhammad in the Bible that Muslims/Christians/Jews need to know. Let�s start with his prophethood.

You mean lets skip the topic now that you have been presented with material that is over your head, and move on to something completely irrelevant! I do not think so. This is irrelevant to the thread. Stay on topic.

The most important issue is whether Muhammad is a legitimate / true prophet in the tradition of the Biblical revelation of Moses in the Torah. In particular, the issue whether he is announced in the scriptures:   This translation is similar to the one in the 3rd Century for starters. If you�re using the KJV which I suspect you are almost 2000 years later, the message is the same.   I need YOU not a link to Explain how this applies to Muhammad; Deut. 18:18-20 �A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.�   (Side note for me- Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)

Off topic. If you continue to go off topic every time you are faced with propositions you dislike, you will find yourself with an official warning. Seriously. This has become you M O. You engage in a topic, and then at a given point, you begin to blither about Gods name, deut 18, previous scriptures�You give me a headache. Stay on the topic in the thread. Seriously.

Again, here is my proof in the Quran to the �Modern Day� Muslim of the 21^st century! But be it fragments, tablets, canon, skin, camel, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, you still have not one shred of evidence of the Bible to be corrupted, just myths, denial and accusations. Can�t you just cut and paste to prove what was uncorrupted is now corrupted? You should be able to present at least 1, 2 or even 3 texts out of the Bible that was UNCORRUPTED but now it is CORRUPTED as we have it today. That is the basis of these posts!  

Surely you can do that! Prove your ALLAGATIONS with FACTS or call it quits!

1. In the Qur'an, Al Imran 3:2, we read these words: "He sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, as guidance to the people." God sent down the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind.
2. In al-Ma'ida 5:72: "Say: `People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel.'" This shows that the Torah and Gospel are reliable, otherwise Muhammad would not attest to them.
3. Also in al-Ma'ida 5:51: "So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein," meaning that the Gospel is sent down from God and Muhammad recognized its authority.
4. In al-Nisa' 4:135: "O believers, believe in God and His Messenger and the Book He has sent down on His Messenger and the Book which He sent down before. Whoso disbelieves in God and His angels and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely gone astray into far error." It judges the infidelity of the Muslim who does not believe in the Torah and Gospel in the same way that he believes in the Qur'an.
5. In Saba', 34:30: "The unbelievers say, `We will not believe in this Qur'an, nor in that before it.'" Thus the people of Mecca knew about the Torah and Gospel in the same way they knew the Qur'an.
6. In al-Qasas 28:49: "Say: `Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these (the Qur'an and the Bible), and follow it, if you speak truly.'" Clearly Muhammad attests to the accuracy of the Torah and Gospel and their equality with the Qur'an.
7. In al-Ma'ida 5:47: "Yet how will they make thee their judge seeing they have the Torah, wherein is God's judgement." Here we have a plain admission that the Torah is sound, contains God's decrees and whoever follows it will not need another arbitrator.

The meaning of the foregoing verses is very plain, and they do not require interpretation or explanation.

Do you still hold back from believing in this Book, in spite of these explicit verses, and consider it as irrelevant? How will you excuse yourself on the day of reckoning for disobeying God's commands, when the books will be opened?

You have learned from the aforementioned Qur'anic verses that the Book (Torah and Gospel) was quite perfect and reliable in Muhammad's day. Otherwise he would not have testified to it and commanded people to keep its precepts. You have to admit that at one time at least it was correct, free from alteration and forgery.

Read the following verses to see for yourself if such changes could take place, or if humans could alter it in such a manner:

"Recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord; no man can change His words" (al-Kahf 18:26).

"No man can change the words of God" (al-An`am 6:34).

"No man can change His words" (al-An`am 6:115).

"There is no changing the words of God" (Yunis 10:65).

"And thou shalt never find any changing the word of God" (al-Fath 48:23).

"A Book Sublime; falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it" (Fussilat 41:42).

"It is We who have sent down the Remembrance, and We watch over it" (al-Hijr 15:9).

From these quotes you will see that NO ONE can change the words of God, because God has sent down a Book and promised to protect it. Should you say that what is meant here by the "Remembrance" is the Qur'an, I would respond that it also means the Torah and Gospel. Witness, for instance, the Qur'anic statement: "Question the People of the Remembrance (the Torah and the Gospel), if you do not know" (Sura al-Anbiya' 21:7). In fact, the Torah itself is referred to as "Qur'an" in the verse: "We gave Moses and Aaron Salvation (al-Furkau) and a Radiance, and a Remembrance for the godfearing..." (Sura al-Anbiya' 21:49).

You say this applies only to the Qur'an; I say, all that applies to the Qur'an applies also to the Torah and the Gospel. For the Torah and Gospel are the words of God and the Qur'an, according to your belief, is the word of God. If you believe that God said in the Qur'an that there is no change, corruption, addition or deletion of his word (as Jalalayn has stated), then how can you say that the Torah and Gospel have been altered in view of all this?

If you allow this possibility, then it would also follow that the Qur'an could have been changed, because what is admissible for the Torah and Gospel is also admissible for the Qur'an. If men are able to alter God's words - the Torah and Gospel - it follows that they would inevitably have been able to alter the Qur'an, as al-Razi has stated. And you do not admit that the Qur'an has been changed. Therefore, you are obliged to agree that altering the Torah and Gospel is an impossibility. You must admit that they are genuine, observe their precepts and adopt them as your guide to Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. As for the alleged corruption referred to by the Qur'an in the Medina Suras, it was with reference to some of the Jews only (with their tongue). The Gospel is free from this accusation. The corruption intended here was in the meaning of certain verses, that is, in their interpretation, since the Jews used to interpret them contrary to Muhammad's wishes. This has been proven by al-Razi and al-Baidawi in their exposition of "corrupted texts". Otherwise, the words of the Qur'an in the Medina Suras would contradict the Meccan Suras.

Doubtless, the Muslims' claim that the Bible has been changed is a charge without proof. Otherwise, where are the texts which have been altered? Which texts are they, what were they originally, and what was the purpose in changing them? If there is no answer to these questions, and it is clear that is so, I ask you: "How does someone dare to make such an allegation? The prudent scholar does not embark on such a scheme without first having something to support his allegation." The Gospel had been translated into Arabic before the appearance of Islam, for the benefit of those Arab tribes who were Christianised, such as: Himyar, Ghassan, Rabiya and the people of Nijran, Heera and others. How else would they have understood Christianity? These facts are corroborated in the book "al-Aghanee" (The Songs), for it relates that Waraka Bin Nawfal (the most famous Arab writer of Muhammad's time) wrote this book, copying in it whatever he desired of the Arabic Gospel. Now, if the Gospel had been subsequently changed, Muslims would have kept the original, to substantiate their case.

If you reject the Bible in it�s entirety, then so be it. My hands are clean and free                                                                             from blood guilt.

Shibboleth wrote: Long story short, Muslims can choose to reject the historical evidence for the Gospel's fidelity.

Which is ?
So far all what you presented have been answered and proved to be of not much value

Shibboleth wrote: You can choose to reject both the secular and early Church father�s accounts that support the Gospel claims.

What are these accounts, when does it date to ?

It's ironic that you say secular, because how can someone be secular and support the gospel at the same time ?

Shibboleth wrote: You can even choose to reject archaeological findings that confirm the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. .

It is quite surprising that you're using the word 'accuracy' when referring to scriptures that are copies which dates hundreds of years after it's origin, which you don't know who wrote it and what were their agenda 

Shibboleth wrote: Yet, how can you reject your own Qur'anic and Hadithic affirmations of both the Gospel message and its existence in an UNCORRUPTED form during the life of Muhammad?.

What are the hadiths you presented that confirms your claim ?

As for verses, all the one's you suggested so far confirms the existence of the gospel , not it's accuracy at the times of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH )

On the other hand, are you asking us to reject numerous hadith, and verses that explicitly states that

1- People of the book ( jews and christians ) have been altering their books
2- have been hiding parts of their books
3- That God has no son
4- That whoever that says that God has a son is a non-believer
5- That Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) is a prophet from God

Do you want us to reject all this for that sake of your own wishes to understand language as you wish ?

Shibboleth wrote: That�s BLASPHEMY to the 10th POWER!

It is indeed blasphemy if we did what you're suggesting

Shibboleth wrote: Besides, the same standard used by Muslims against the Bible or Gospels needs to be applied to the Qur�an itself. Muslims do not have the original Qur�an�not even an original copy of the Uthmanic codex! That�s the pot calling the kettle BLACK! Qur'an preservation is not only for the words or letters, but for the performance and pronunciation,  always depended on memorizing by heart This is what makes Qur'an unique, and what kept it from alteration or change This is why the Qur'an you hear in USA is the same you hear in Indonesia, is the same you hear in Saudi Arabia Muslims are the only nation that memorizes their book by heart and read it out loud on daily basis as part of their practices Shibboleth wrote: Unlike the Qur�an, variant copies of the Gospels were not burned, so the original text can be reconstructed in its entirety as shown. What was shown that you have no direct reference to Moses or Jesus ( PBUH ) to the scriptures that you assume constructs the bible [QUOTE=Shibboleth]But, burning your own �revelations� sounds suspect to me. Why burn your own revelations unless its source is not divine, or its verses are Satanic and therefore prone to human error.

What you're saying might have had a point if muslims burned out the Qur'an and said, let's forget about it and write another book
Qur'an has always been memorized by heart, writing is a mere reference to the original

Did you ever hear the term " They read a book that doesn't get wet by water"  ?

If all the current copies of the Qur'an were to disappear, it wouldn't harm muslims in anyway, because we know exactly each and every letter, not only that, how it's to pronounced, and where to stop and where to not stop

No other text have ever had this care or preservation

Regards

 ¹⁹And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

 ²⁰And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

 ²¹And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

 ²²And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man

Ok. Your denials are serious then I thought even though YOUR holy book says otherwise so let me just do this;

The Qumran Library

The SCROLLS and SCROLL fragments recovered in the Qumran environs represent a voluminous body of Jewish documents, a veritable "library", dating from the T H I R D century B.C.E. TO 68 C.E.

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html - http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

A discovery of a group of manuscripts which were a thousand years older than the then-oldest-known http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/hebrewlanguage.html - Hebrew texts of the http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/bible.html - Bible (manuscripts, many of which were written more than 100 years BEFORE the birth of Jesus.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html - http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html

Whether YOU trust the Bible or NOT is not between you and I but between you and your maker. If you believe that God can preserve the Quran yet not the Bible, your faith is more deficient then you can ever imagine.

But, no matter how widely this view may be held in the Muslim world that God is unable to preserve his HOLY word, there is still no evidence of any nature whatsoever to support that it�s corrupt.

1) Again, where are the facts to support your allegations and myths?

2) If the Old and New Testaments were subsequently changed, where is the ORIGINAL to substantiate your case?

Since day one, no one has presented ANYTHING in writing! That Is what WE call in the court of law ALLAGATIONS!

Far as what came first the man or the beast, Adam or Eve depends on whether you can prove that it�s corrupted, if you can�t, which NO ONE HAS YET DONE, it�s that simple. You, as well as the BILLIONS of Bibles available are UNCORRUPTED. Now, understanding its meaning or interpretation of different scriptures as you posted REGARDING Geneses is a completely different subject. My advice to you is to post a new topic, I would gladly answer it, maybe this is where we misunderstand each other.