Heaven and hell
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Topic: Heaven and hell
Posted By: hope
Subject: Heaven and hell
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 3:56pm
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Asalamu Alaykum- Can someone explain to me how you know who will go to heaven and who will go hell. I mean I know that Allah (swt) is the judge and that he is most merciful but He has also guided us through the Qur'an regarding what He will forgive and what he won't right? So that we may be in his grace. I'm not really sure about that. Also, is heaven only for muslims?
Jazzakallah khair
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Replies:
Posted By: muslim_gal1988
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 6:34pm
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salaamz I'm not realli sure about that also..well 1st of all i think muslim's will go to heven..THE REAL MULIMS (the 1s by heart,NOT THE SPOILED 1s)and i think it matters about how the person is by heart also(respecting ur parents, giving money to the poor.etc.) Good question's..i realli hope that would help |
Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 10:08pm
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on Judgement Day, each of us will go to what we believe in. simple as that. it's stated in the Quran many times. |
Posted By: muslim_gal1988
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 4:44am
true
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Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 6:53pm
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"well 1st of all i think muslim's will go to heven.." yes you understood my question jezekullah khair yes, sister this is ultimately where all musims will be. I asked many others about this and learned that this is correct. I also found out that some muslims will have to got to hell for some period of time (how this relates to time as we know here on earth is not clear) but once they have been purified they will enter jennah. Also the muslims that were in hell will be identifiable to all because they will have a mark on their forehead.
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Posted By: fanaofallah
Date Posted: 13 August 2005 at 7:16am
Assalamualicum none knows who will go to hell or heaven we can only have a good opinion that muslims will go to heaven and sinners and non believers will go to hell! -------------  |
hope wrote:Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 15 August 2005 at 10:01pm
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Fanaofallah perhaps saying: >>>we can only have a good opinion that muslims will go to heaven and sinners and non believers will go to hell!<<<< Perhaps its best saying God knows (Allahu Alim)! Even in the last moment of a disbeliever God then can show mercy. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 4:25am
Yes, well said! ..........this mercy is also the true essence of mankind......that's how we come to recognize it. |
Posted By: muslim_gal1988
Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 4:34am
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SALAAMZ |
the thing that comes to mind is WHO R WE 2 SAY RIGHT...Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 11:07am
| Early in Judaism, there was no heaven/hell. People followed God's commandments on the basis of them being divine commandments that must be followed, simply because they were from God. Heaven and hell evolved much later, when people began asking "what's the point of doing good?" If I'm not mistaken, one of the first people to begin this philosophy was Job. I assume most of us here know the story of Job (Ayoub), he was wealthy and righteous, but suddenly he lost everything and suffered alot. So he asked why someone should abide by God's laws, and why someone should be righteous if it doesn't pay off [in this life]. Thus the idea of heaven came in to promote doing good deeds. By the time Christianity emerged, the idea of heaven and hell was well established in Judaism, and it became a central part of Christianity, and later on, Islam. |
Posted By: muslim_gal1988
Date Posted: 17 August 2005 at 7:31pm
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Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 17 August 2005 at 10:17pm
| i thought they believe in Adam & Eve, so of course heaven & hell. hemm... that's new to me.. |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 10:42pm
| Yes, they believed in Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden. But heaven and hell as an afterlife is an idea that evolved. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 11:25pm
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem Deus This section is entitled Discussions--Basics of Islam, if you wish to discuss Heaven and hell from an interfaith perspective please do so in the relavent section. You are not simply offering an alternate perspective which i may have overlooked, but stating it as the all encompasing answer which it is not and clearly wrong Islamicly. Prior to the advent of Islam people were judged according to the message they recieved from there perspective prophets, if no message reached a particular person then allah will test him on the day of judgment to see if he would have followed Allahs religion had he heard it on earth. It is the same now except that Islam is for all humanity not just a group of people, so no religion other than islam is accepted even if it originated from a prophet of Allah, like Jesus or moses. No other religion has been preserved otherwise there would be no need to send a final messenger. If an indavidual has not had a chance to hear about islam and make a sound and concioues judgment then Allah will test them on the day of judgment to see if they would have followed him in this life. Heaven is for those who follow Allah's religion, you will not see pagans and mushriks in heaven. Having said that Allah has said the only sin he will not forgive is polythiesm, believing in other gods besides him, so what this means is that you will see people who believed in other religions besides Islam in Heaven eventualy after they have been punished for not accpting Islam in this life as long as they believed in the one True god and no other beside him. Jews, some christians, bahai, sikhs...the list goes on there are many religions who believe in the one true God, Allah, but not necaseraly Islam. Heaven and hell was not a "development" in ideas, Adam was in Heaven beffore being brought to earth. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 9:13pm
I have looked into this a lot more because I got some different answers and I really want to reply to you brother because I was most confused by what you wrote. Here's why: Do you mean that a disbeliever can enter jennah? If this is what you meant than I am pretty sure that is not right. Allahu Alim yes, of course, but He has already made it abudently clear that He will not forgive those that commit shirk and the disbelievers. They will be in hell for all eternity. This is a warning for us that whomever seeks the right path and follows the command of Allah (swt) will be rewarded. The disbelievers will be the losers. I am just sort of going of memory what I have read in the Qur'an but I can find many ayats that say this or similar things. I think you might be sending the wrong message to non-muslims. If they think that it doesn't make a differece what you believe because no one knows what will happen on the day of judgement, than making dawah is kinda pointless. It's hard for us to think of people going to hell, but many people will. It's already been told to us and we have to believe what Allah (swt) tells us. If it doesn't make a difference than why should anyone become a muslim? Don't get me wrong. I hope everyone goes to jennah and as the day a judgement approachs mankind will enter the religion of Allah (swt) in masses (this is also in the Qur'an), but not everyone will. Those that reject Allah (swt) and his message (those that never heard of islam or were unable to learn about for reasons beyond ones control will not be held accountable) will never enter jennah.
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Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 23 August 2005 at 10:52pm
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Asalaamu Alaykum thank for replying brother. Please don't take this the wrong way but am having trouble understanding what you are saying. I am pretty sure it's not right. I mean it doesn't even sound right. The problem that I am having is this: You are making the arguement that because they say they believe in 1 god than they can be forgiven. But the fact that we say there is no god but Allah (swt) kinda makes that null. They are worshiping a god other than Allah (swt) associating partners with the one true God , by definition, shirk. I mean just because someone says they believe in 1 god it doesn't mean much if they don't believe in shahadaa. If you decide to worship one god but you reject what muslims believe than you are not accepting Allah's (swt) authority or accepting Him as God. You aren't worshiping Him. That's why muslims take shahdaa before they can become muslim. It the fundamental aspect of what makes us muslim and worship Allah (swt) .
I don't know which 1 god all of the jews christians and hindus are worshipping but it certainly isn't Allah (swt). When you believe in God you accept and do what He tells you. Jews and Christians and all other religions aren't doing that since they have rejected his prophets and do not follow the Qu'ran and sunnah. These are commanded by God for us to follow . So I don' t know which god they have in mind when they are worshipping but it certainly isn't Allah (swt) and since we know la ilaha ill allah-there is no god but Allah (swt) then it doesn't mean much just to say that you worship 1 god if you are not a muslim because if you aren't a muslim it means you are worshiping a god other than Allah (swt) and none exist save Allah (swt).
These other religions, by definition, do not worship Allah (swt). If they did really worship Allah (swt), they'd have to also accept Muhammad (pbuh).
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 2:36am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Hope Your basic asumtion is wrong, that jews and christians worship a god other than Allah. Jews follow the teachings of the prophet moses as well as all the other prophets leading upto and not including jesus. Christians are the same as jews except the believe in jesus and go even further as to make him a deity. The above is atested in the Quran it self when it says look to previous scriptures to confirm what is in the Quran, further we are the cousins of the jews descending from abraham and we both believe in the same God that Abraham believed in. Allah also acknowledges them in the Quran as being among those who worship him when he called them people of the book, and among the non muslims it is only the jews and christians that a muslim can marry no one else. Your argument that jews and christians believe in a different God than what we do has no basis in Islam no scholar sahaba or tabii has made such a claim and it would constatute Kufr on the part of the person who believed this as they would be acusing the prophet Muhammad of worshiping other than the God of Abraham and bringing his own new religion. Judaism and christianity existed before Islam and our liniage and heratige goes back to abraham and from there along the same lineage all the way back to adam, it is more acurate to say they believe in the same god but are not following his comandments than to say they worship a different god. Allah has clearly stated the only sin he will not forgive is that of shirk, 4:116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right). non muslims will be punished in hell but any person who has not commited the sin of shirk will be taken out of hell eventualy and go to jannah. Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601: Narrated Ma'bad bin Hilal Al'Anzi: We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, "Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession." He said, "O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession." Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.' They will go to Abraham and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.' So they will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.' (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.' They would come to me and I would say, 'I am for that.' Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' And then it will be said, 'Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' It will be said, 'Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, 'O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers!' Then He will say, 'Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.' I will go and do so."' When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, "Let's pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us." So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, "O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard." He said, "What is that?" Then we told him of the Hadith and said, "He stopped at this point (of the Hadith)." He said, "What then?" We said, "He did not add anything to that." He said, Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don't know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said." We said, "O Abu Said ! Let us know that." He smiled and said, "Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it. Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted .' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.' Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.' '' Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) is described in the Quran as being a mercy for all humanity and a mesenger for all creation not just a single nation like all previous prophets, so notice in the last part that he does not ask to intercede only for his followers like he did every other time but simply those who simply said La illaha ila llah. Also notice how allah replied he doesnt say by my mercy but by his majesty supremacy and Greatness indicating that somthing extra ordinary is occuring here. All muslims are promised Jannah already some will go to hell first but all will eventualy go to jannah so the fact that rasul allah does not mention "my followers" as he did every other time and allah not mentioning he is doing this out of his mercy but his Greatness his supremacy and majesty atributes which we should be in awe of and indicating we should apreciate the significance of the event. One esential point here is that the third time he aks foir intercession allah says take out those who had " faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed." but in the last interseccion they are not described as having any faith but having simply said la illah ilah llah. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 9:44am
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My apologies hope for not responding to you, As'Salaamu Alaikum! Let's be clear that my statements did not imply anything other than Islamic knowledge. My statement was in regards to the one who repents at the time of death and that in that moment God knows whether to forgive or not. I always believe God is constantly allowing his mercy to pour onto us humans everyday, but since we are the most intelligent of God's creatures we must our intellect to get much closer to God. Intelligence is paramount to getting closer to God! As brother Rami notes, theologically, polytheist will not attain closeness to God as they worship other gods beside the Only Creator of the universe. However I will note that even for atheist there is hope for them because as far as I'm concerned atheist not like polytheist deny any god. In fact that is a fraction of the shahada! Now if the atheist can turn theist then monotheist this would be an improvement towards God. This is my point. |
Posted By: miasghar
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:34am
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Asalaam-o-Alaikum I would like to add that Allah's "religion" has been "submission to His Will" as conveyed by every Prophet (pbut all). The name given to this "way of life" is Islam. Having said that I would like to mention a hadith (I do not know the exact wording) that says that the Holy Prophet (saw) once said that "no one will enter paradise except that Allah (swt) has Mercy on him". The Holy Prophet (saw) was asked "Even you, O Prophet of Allah?" and he replied in the affirmative. So the correct faith and good deeds can make us "good candidates" for His Mercy but ultimately, Allah's justice will prevail in the case of those of us who have the misfortune of having our deeds and faith looked into. Blessed will be those who do not have any accountability or at the most only in a cursory manner. Allah humma hasibny hisabyen yaseera. Aameen ------------- He is truly grateful (to Allah) who realises his inability to adequately thank Allah (swt) |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 4:46pm
| Miasghar Ameen |
Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:02pm
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Asalamu Alaiykum brother Rami Just to make clear I know that judism and christianity of today grew out of the corruption of the message sent by Allah's (swt) prophets. I think this was a matter of semantics. I was merely saying that you cannot accept Allah (swt) as your Lord and then deny what he has sent and commanded us to follow. How can you worship if you don't obey? It doesn't make sense. Do you see my point? Anyway I do see your point so we will say that the people of the book all worship Allah (swt) ok. I appreciate the hadith brother rami but there is so much in the Qu'ran that says the kafir will burn in hell. In fact the jew is cursed in the Qu'ran. The christians believe in a trinity that is shrik (the unforgivable sin) so that takes care of the people of the book. And Qu'ran trumps hadith. Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them. 47:34 The Qu'ran says the kafir will burn in hell. There are also hadith that say the kafir will burn in hell: "By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this Ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Sahih Muslim, 153). The Quran AND hadith say the Kafir will burn in hell. |
Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:09pm
Wasalaam ! Thank for the reply. It is more clear and I understand that you are saying that anyone who repents and accepts sahaddah at any point before death may be forgiven and Allah (swt) is the most merciful. I agree. I thought you were saying something like those of the Bahai faith or others who say that every religion is a different path to the same source or end because that is not true. If someone rejects true Islam, then it is they who are the losers on the Day of Judgement as Allah has said. |
Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:33pm
Asalaamu Alaykum brother - I agree with your first statement, but the conclusion you made from the hadith you refer to conflicts .Are you saying that this hadith means that a disbeliever can enter jennah? If so, (forgive me if I am wrong brother) I can�t see how you came to the conclusion. I could just as easily conclude that this hadith mean that even the best of muslims (even a sinless prophet) are mercy of Allah (swt). The ayats I quoted in my other post support this. I think that we should use what we know to make the best choices and help others to see the light and truth that is islam. I don�t want to waste any time or give anyone a false sense of hope. We are ALL at the mercy of Allah (swt) even the best or most pious among us yes, but He has told us in the Qu�ran and sunnah to follow his deen. We are told exactly what to do to be rewarded on Yamul Qiyamat. Jennah has price! It�s not easy to enter. "When Allah created paradise and hell, he sent Jibreel (Gabriel) to paradise, saying: 'Go and look at it and the things I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he went and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared therein for its inhabitants. He then came back and said: 'By your glory, whosoever will hear of it will long to enter it.' So he ordered that it be surrounded by forms of hardship, and said to Jibreel: 'Go back and look at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he went back and found that it was surrounded by forms of hardship. Then he came back and said: 'By your glory, I fear that no-one will enter it.'
Then he sent him to the fire of hell saying, 'Go and look at it and what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he looked at it and saw that it was in layers, one above the other. Then he came back and said: 'By your glory, whoever hears of it will never try to enter it.' So he ordered that it be surrounded by passions and desires, and said: 'Go and see what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he went and looked at it, then came back and said, 'by your glory, I fear that no-one will escape from entering it.'" (Muslim, Abu Daawud and Imaam Ahmad) I mean if the prophet (pbuh) will enter paradise at the mercy of Allah (swt) do you think a disbeliever actually has any chance?
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 August 2005 at 7:53pm
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Hope Salaam, Yes I was implying that but I have to say I disagree with you on another level here. When pluralistic religions use the premise of aligning religions even those whose premise is very distant in actuality the particulars of each religion which promotes peace and co-existence with other humans is indeed the path of Islam! even if the theologies are different the will of God exist in all aspects of life even in the development of religions which deny him and those thatr multiply him. Allah is he who is Lord of all and nothing can exist without him knowing it. I may be a bit unorthodox but I believe that God is merciful and more merciful than how we perceive in his holy book. I believe since the words which God has crystallize in the Qur'an are in the human language its difficult to understand their true purity and when we see the words mercy, paradise, heaven and hell we truly cannot know the knowledge of what each entails therefore we on our behalf cannot judge (rightfully) because such is for God and not mankind even if we are a witness to clear and conscious error. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 August 2005 at 8:59pm
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem wa alaikum assalam
Jazak allah for reminding me of that hadith, it is absolutely ture
and i think it was bad wording on my part if i implied that Allah was
not turning to those people who simply said la ilaha illah llah through
some aspect of his mercy. My point was that Allah himself was pointing
out other atributes than mercy for a reason and we need to look at and
understand why that is. I think it was out of his mercy that Allah turned to this group through his atributes of Power, Majesty, Supremacy and
Greatness becouse
as we know through other ahadith and the Quran Rasul allah is a mercy
for all the worlds and it is he who is interceding for them. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 August 2005 at 9:36pm
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem wa alaikum asalam Hope, can i asume your a sister ? 
al-Ma'idah 5:82 Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them. 47:34
We
have another verse which says the only sin Allah will not forgive is
Idolatry do they contradict each other? no, you can not use the Quran
to contradict another verse in the Quran or hadith this is a basic rule
of Tafsir. They both came from rasul allah. There are many types of
disbelievers some believe in Allah but not rasul allah while others
dont believe in Allah at all.
How does that contradict those who said la illaha illah llah will be taken out of hell, they are in hell ie losers.
Does the hadith i Quote say anything to contradict any of the above? no those who said la illah illah llah will be taken out of hell. You can not use one hadith agaisnt another hadith or Quran against
another verse in the Quran rasul allah did not contradict himself or
what Allah has said. Do you think even a second in hell is easy those who didnt believe
in muhamad will be severly punished in hell but that does not contradict the
hadith and verse i Quoted, I think rasul allah knows the shahadah....La
illaha illah llah Muhamad rasul allah. now if a muslim was to simply
say la illaha illah llah without muhamad rasul allah he would be a
kafir so that last part in the hadith can in no way be talking about
muslims. The hadith itself is a sahih hadith. Regarding your second post i have clarified that in my above post. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 27 August 2005 at 1:39am
You know very well that I am talking about rejecting faith. You cannot obey Allah (swt) if you reject his PROPHETS. I don't know of any muslims that don't believe in Prophet Mohammed. It's a question of shaddah. Not whether not someone who ALREADY accepts shaddah pays zakat every year or not! Big difference. If there is a question-- what is said in the Qu'ran trumps what is in the hadith. Not that they contradict but the Qu'ran is the direct word of Allah (swt) whereas the hadith are NOT. They can even vary in the degree to the certainity of what they contain. The answer is SO clear in the Qu'ran and you are trying to piece together something from the hadith to support your very assumption that the kaffir will be in jennah. Kaffir in hell eternally. The hadith that you keep referring to is about muslims. ONly musims that have to be purified will be sent to hell before they can enter jennah. It does not apply to kaffirs. Kaffirs go to hell and stays there. Anyway, Since I can't do ijtihad and you can't either I have to go by what scholars read from this. Please read this and if you find anything from another scholar that is different please post here. Thanks. Questions? - [email protected] This means that anybody could be in
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Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 27 August 2005 at 2:05am
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The Jews are cursed in the Qu'ran here are three different interpretaions: 005.064
The Jews are the transgressors they reject the authority of Allah (swt): �O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): Why do you disbelieve in the Ayaat of Allaah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad present in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)? �O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa� (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa� of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa�), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)� al-Maa'idah
al-Bayyinah 98:6 �And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who ascribe partners to Allaah (and do not believe in Resurrection � Magians, pagans, and idolaters). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allaah is All-Seer of what they do�[al-Baqarah 2:96]
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Posted By: hope
Date Posted: 27 August 2005 at 2:07am
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and yes |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 27 August 2005 at 8:43am
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim, The basis of faith is that one believes in Allah, his messengers (all of them, excluding none), His angels and His books (all of them, excluding none). Those who have any variation in their faith to the above are not Muslim, and their religion is not Islam. As it is said in surah Imran verse 19, if one has a religion other than Islam it shall not be accepted of him (not actual translation). It is also confirmed by scholars that this verse abrogates those verses of the Quran that say "any who believes in allah is a muslim". So we should not deny that Jews and christians recieved the word of Allah, and they worshiped Allah as their Lord, but their religion is not complete or perfect, after it has become incumbent on mankind to follow another book and another prophet. We cannot say even for a kafir if he is going to heaven or hell, but sure we should know what are the basic requirements of this religion (ike Islam). Maa salaama, Nausheen ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:52pm
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
assalamu alaikum
This is not corect, most certainly you can obey parts of allahs message and ignore others a basic example is that we believe in the 10 commandments and so do jews and christians. Any one among this group who follows them is obeying Allah in this respect. Otherwise i dont see at all what you are saying, rejecting islam does not mean the person is not obeying Allah outright.
The
idea that the Quran Trumps ahadith is plain wrong we take both
together, the hadith i quoted you is from sahih bukhari there is no
question about the authenticity of the hadith and you can not reject it
simply becouse you dont like it. When you pary and say the
shahadah do you simply say La illaha illah llah or La illaha illah llah
muhamad rasul allah ?
Your argument is based on asumptions and ignoreing certain evidence, a scholar looks at all the evidence not just part of it, dont simplify my argument to jews christians [edited] these are just lables there are many people out there who do not fit into this conveniant mould. There are 7 levels of jahanam do you also know who is going in which level? i think you should read sister nausheens post carfully ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 28 August 2005 at 9:33pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,
The following is taken from: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/amat.htm - On the validity of all religions in the thought of ibn Al-'Arabi and Emir 'Abd al-Qadir by Nuh Ha Mim Keller 5. The Fate of Non-Muslims in the AfterlifeThe reason that contemporary writers affected by the writings of Gunon and Schuon, such as Chittick and Gai Eaton (or such as Martin Lings, Titus Burckhardt etc.), seem to want the universal validity of all religions at any price, even to the extent of attributing it to masters like Muhyiddin ibn al-`Arabi ("in principle") or Emir `Abd al-Qadir ("he protected the Christians against massacre by taking them into his own home because he understood" [as if other scholars considered massacring them halal]) would seem to be the emotive impalatability of followers of other religions going to hell. Where is the mercy? Would Allah put someone in the hellfire merely for worshipping in another religion besides Islam? This question is answered by traditional Islam according to two possibilities: (1) There are some peoples who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra', "We do not punish until We send a Messenger" (Qur'an 17:15). These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism. The great Muslim scholar, Imam Ghazali, includes in this category those who have only been reached with a distorted picture of the Messenger of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace), presumably including many people in the West today who know nothing about Allah's religion but newspaper stories about Ayatollahs and mad Muslim bombers. Is it within such people's capacity to believe? In Ghazali's view, such people are excused until after they have had an opportunity to learn the undistorted truth about Islam (Ghazali: "Faysal al-tafriqa," Majmu'a rasa'il al-Imam al-Ghazali, 3.96). This of course does not alter our own obligation as Muslims to reach them with the da'wa. (2) A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with His message, and to whom He has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this, persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse: "Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Qur'an 4:48). In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it. Hope this helps, insha allah. Maa salaama, Nausheen ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 August 2005 at 5:04am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum i am not talking about either group, but who ever has said la illaha illah llah meaning they have believed in Allah without asociating partners with him. If u can not imagine who these people may be or a label you would give them then good becouse the above aplies to who ever fits its description regardless of percieved labels. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 31 August 2005 at 2:48pm
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Beyond our own religious dogma and theological beliefs we can understand that those who exist in Hell are those whos actions deemed them to be condemned souls who will forever be away from God. Those who exist in heaven are the individuals whose actions deemed them worthy of God's mercy and love through being near to him. When we add our doctrinal interpretation we must go by the implications on what God has meant in the Qur'an. Surely we can equate the mercy of God to the non-Muslims (jews and Christians and Sikhs) to modern times. I firmly believe (ass doctrine supports) that those who believe in the Oneness of God not associating partners with them are in fact making at least 1/4 of the Islamic creed which itself is a relation to our own deen. Sikhs ar enot mentioned in the Qur'an yet the believe in One God without associating partners with him. So again we should look at these standpoints before condemnation |
Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 01 September 2005 at 2:34pm
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As Salamu Alaikum Masha Allah a very informative discussion. Insha Allah let's pray that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will shower His Mercy upon us so that we can be amongst those who enter "ASH-HADU ANLA ELAHA ILLA-ALLAH WA ASH-HADU ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL-ALLAH". Wa Alaikum Salam ------------- �Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165) "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |