Sura 86...
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Topic: Sura 86...
Posted By: Apple Pie
Subject: Sura 86...
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 2:29pm
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All, Let�s look at sura 86, as a whole, so that it can be more clearly understood�
86� .1 And/by the clouds, and/by the Night Comer/One who knocks/Morning Star. .2 And what made you know/informed you what the Night Comer/One who knocks/Morning Star is? .3 The star, or asterism, brightly shining. .4 Verily every soul hath over it a guardian. .5 So, in order to inform mankind from that which originated the inner man. .6 The inner man originated from water pouring/jetting/flowing forcefully. .7 He comes forth from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones. .8 When His (is) upon/near/above He returned/was brought back the one who has power over. .9 A day/time all secrets/intentions be tested/exposed/will turn to its reality. .10 So that no strength/power from and nor Savior for him. .11 And/by the clouds He returned. .12 And/by the entire Earth that of the splitting/separation/geological rift-fault line. .13 When His word (of) Judgment. .14 And that He (is not) in vain. .15 When they devise a scheme. .16 And I devise and accomplish. .17 Then respite gently all the disbelievers, respite them gently for a little while. Red = Jesus� Crucifixion and Resurrection� Green = Jesus� Second Coming�
Thanks... |
Replies:
Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 4:40pm
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Peace, Here yusuf ali translation (from comprehensive search, above), I think this surah doesn't not talk about jesus but for general mankind: Surah 86 - At-Tariq (The Night-Comer) / Yusuf Ali 86:1 By the Sky and the Night-Visitant (therein);- ------------- Salam/Peace, Semar "We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) "1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air" |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 5:32pm
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Greetings semar, Thanks for your reply� "Here yusuf ali translation (from comprehensive search, above), I think this surah doesn't not talk about jesus but for general mankind:" Who do you think �alttariqi� is�..? Take care� |
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 5:53pm
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Assalamu alaikum, I'm looking at the Arabic text right now. Ayat five literally says: "then let mankind ""Al'Insanu" recollect from what he was created." applepie's translation is nonsense. ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 6:06pm
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Greetings Yusuf, Thanks for adding your comments� � I'm looking at the Arabic text right now. Ayat five literally says: "then let mankind ""Al'Insanu" recollect from what he was created." applepie's translation is nonsense.� Show us the Arabic� |
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 6:13pm
 ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 6:20pm
| Now...exegete it for us... |
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 6:30pm
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fa: consequential conjunction l+jussive passive imperfective third person masculine singular form of "nath.ara" (to look, behold, see, consider) indicating hortatory form al 'insanu: (collective noun: mankind) nominative form indicating subject of the verb "yunthir" falyunth.iri il-insanu therefore means "then let mankind be shown" mimma: contraction of min ma: from what khuliqa: passive perfect 3rd person masculine singular form of khaliqa (to create), clearly agreeing with al-insanu mimma khuliqa therefore means "from what he was created." "Then let mankind be shown from what he was created." Crystal clear. ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 7:32pm
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Greetings Yusuf, Thanks for your reply� �fa: consequential conjunction� http://burhan.freewebsitehosting.com/data/b.x.227.htm -
�fa� definition: A prefixed conjunction particle having conjunctive power. It implies a close connection between the sentences before and after it. This connection may be either definite cause and effect or a natural sequence of events signifying; And, Then; For; Therefore; So that; So; In order that; In that case; In consequence; Afterwards; At least; Lest; Because; For fear of; Truly, After, By; But; Thus; Consequently; In order to. It is also expletive, and a prefix to other particles. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume six, pp. 2321 - 2323 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 414 Thus, the �fa� of 86.5 links the ayahs before and after it, in a sequence� "l+jussive third person masculine singular form of "nath.ara" (to look, behold, see, consider) indicating hortatory form al 'insanu: (collective noun: mankind) nominative form indicating subject of the verb "yunthir" falyunth.iri il-insanu therefore means "then let mankind consider""
�lyanthuri� definition: Masculine singular. In order to warn. An informing, or advising of a thing; and a warning, or cautioning, and putting one on his guard, against a thing, and putting one in fear of a thing; or putting one in fear of announcing a thing. It comes from the root �nadhara�, which means to dedicate, consecrate, make a vow, warn, admonish, caution, promise, voluntarily, offer present. He made a vow; imposed upon himself a vow; that he would do such a thing; either absolutely, or conditionally; he made a future action binding, or obligatory, on himself. The mulct (fine/penalty) for an intentional wound. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 557 - 558 "mimma: contraction of min ma: from what"
�mimma� definition: This particle is a combination of �min� & �ma�. �Min� is a preposition used for expressing starting point, part of a whole, origin as, from, of some, amongst. Determining time mood of action, as, no, upon, from, of. �Ma� is a conjunctive pronoun. That; Which, That which; whatsoever; As; As much; In such a manner as; As much as; As far as; Any kind; When; How. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 523 � 524, 542 "khuliqa: passive perfect 3rd person masculine singular form of khaliqa (to create), clearly agreeing with al-insanu mimma khuliqa therefore means "from what he was created."" http://burhan.freewebsitehosting.com/data/b.x.443.htm - �khuliqa� definition: Masculine singular. Was created. The moral character; or fashion of the inner man; i.e. his mind, or soul, and its peculiar qualities and attributes; the fashion of the outer man, and its peculiar qualities and attributes; it signifies also custom or habit (as being a second nature). It comes from the root �khalaqa�, which means the act of measuring; or determining the measure, proportion, or the like, of a thing; and the making a thing by measure, or according to the measure of another thing; or proportioning a thing to another thing. It signifies the bringing of a thing into existence according to a certain measure, or proportion, and so as to make it equal to another thing, or uniform therewith; or the originating or producing a thing after a pattern or model which one has devised, not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. As an act of God, it signifies the originating or bringing into being or existence anything not after the similitude of anything pre-existing; and the creating a thing; and thus it is generally best rendered; as meaning the bringing into existence from a state of no-existence. As an act of God, signifies the creating out of nothing. To measure, proportion, determine, fashion, create, form a thing, be fir, apt to a thing, behave kindly. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 163 - 164 As you can verify for yourself, �khuliqa� means more than just �was created�. In addition, �fa� informs us that 86.4 & 86.6 must be included per the classic definition... "Then let mankind consider from what he was created." 86.5 So, in order to inform mankind from that which originated the inner man. Indeed� |
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 7:46pm
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your interpretation of l-yunthiri is wrong. The final "i" clearly indicates jussive, and the l (a contraction of "li") makes it hortatory. Introduction to Koranic Arabic, p. 112 (full reference is in the other thread where I refute some other nonsense of yours). the subjunctive form (yunthira) is necessary for li to mean "in order to." Introduction of Koranic Arabic, p. 316. The remainder of your "interpretation" is likewise flawed, but I have already wasted too many valuable seconds on this simplistic subject and have demonstrated to any rational mind the lack of foundation upon which you have created this rather fanciful interpretation, and so I bid you adieu. ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 8:14pm
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Greetings Yusuf, Thanks for your reply� your interpretation of l-yunthiri is wrong. The final "i" clearly indicates jussive, and the l (a contraction of "li") makes it hortatory. Introduction to Koranic Arabic, p. 112 (full reference is in the other thread where I refute some other nonsense of yours). the subjunctive form (yunthira) is necessary for li to mean "in order to." Introduction of Koranic Arabic, p. 316. Perhaps you need to reference a classic Lexicon instead of your grammar books� The remainder of your "interpretation" is likewise flawed, but I have already wasted too many valuable seconds on this simplistic subject and have demonstrated to any rational mind the lack of foundation upon which you have created this rather fanciful interpretation, and so I bid you adieu. My sura 86 exegesis is rock-solid and reveals the truth regarding Jesus:
Come back sometime when you have had time to comprehend what the classic Arabic is telling you� Thanks� |
Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 10:09pm
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Bismillah Asalaamu'alaikum. Brother Yusuf, jazak Allahu khair for your effort and detailed response in straightening the issue. These are people who reject Islam as terrorist, Quran as Mein Kampf, yet they are puzzled till obsession with Muslims' respect towards 'Eesa Son of Mariam, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. ------------- MOCKBA |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 7:22am
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All, Who is up to the task of sura 86 discussion....? |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 3:17am
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You lost it....again.. you just havent realised yet. Noah |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 8:01pm
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An interesting article right http://www.quranm.multicom.ba/science/7e-jesus.htm#86U1 - here . Any astrophysicists to tell us more about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsars - pulsars ? And in any case, if the Quran explicitly says that God is not Jesus and that Jesus was not crucified, are you saying that we must accept the subliminal implicit message that God is in fact Jesus and he really was crucified? |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 6:35pm
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Greetings Deus, Thanks for your comments� An interesting article right http://www.quranm.multicom.ba/science/7e-jesus.htm#86U1 - here . Any astrophysicists to tell us more about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsars - pulsars ? This same site was brought forth by other Muslim�s attempting to make the Koran-science link with sura 86. The author of the piece did a poor job at �exegeting� the Arabic, completely without references, roots, or context�.in short�.just what most Muslims do with their �sacred� scriptures�they try to make them into something that they are not� And in any case, if the Quran explicitly says that God is not Jesus and that Jesus was not crucified, Where does it state this�? are you saying that we must accept the subliminal implicit message that God is in fact Jesus and he really was crucified? It�s hardly subliminal in the classic Arabic in which it was penned�however, you are correct in saying that it is indeed implicit� Modern Muslims rarely look past the popular English translations�.and hence, have absolutely no clue as to what they speak� Take care� |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 8:49pm
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Jesus not God: Jesus not crucified: |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 8:52pm
Most, if not all, Muslim scholars are fluent in Arabic. I personally dismiss a scholar's scholarship if I know he is not an expert in Arabic language. |
Apple Pie wrote:Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 9:59pm
Precisely why I find this whole discussion laughable. Arguing over which translation is more accurate; completely absurd. ------------- Yusuf |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 7:13pm
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Greetings Deus, Thanks for your replies� Jesus not God: Please exegete the Arabic for us on this ayah�.not that you can that is� Jesus not crucified: Let�s look� Let�s review the very next ayah that follows 4.157�
Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman 4.158 On the contrary, Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him, and Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious. �Bal� definition: A particle of digression; it denotes emendation, wherever it occurs, in the case of negation or an affirmation; or it is a word of emendation, and denoting digression from that which precedes. When it is followed by a proposition, the meaning of the digression is either the canceling of what precedes, as in:
Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan subhanahu bal AAibadun mukramoona 21.26 And they said: "The Compassionate hath gotten offspring:� extolled be his freedom from that which is derogatory from his glory, nay/nay rather/nay but they are honored servants." or... If it is used as confirmation, then it must be followed by a clause in the affirmative, no matter if the question which it follows is the negative or affirmative. It can be rendered as But, on the contrary, besides; much more; no; nay; rather. References: An Arabic-English Lexicon, The Dictionary of the Holy Qur�an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 62 We have two other examples of the cancellation and/or correcting of prior scriptures just within Sura 4, as seen in 4.49 & 4.155� Thus, it should come as no surprise, we can see for ourselves that 4.158 cancels what is said in 4.157 regarding the false claim that Jesus was not Crucified , and replaces this false claim with the corporeal Resurrection event as described in 4.158 & 4.159�. Furthermore, the authors of the Koran have provided Sura 86 which demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus was indeed Crucified, Resurrected and Judges the dead. In short, the Koran confirms that Jesus is indeed God Almighty�
Most, if not all, Muslim scholars are fluent in Arabic. I personally dismiss a scholar's scholarship if I know he is not an expert in Arabic language. Then that would leave you out� Thanks� |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 9:21pm
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Oh, behold the beauty of this verse: 41.03: ������� ��������� �������� �������� ���������� �������� ����������� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 5:33am
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Enough is enough. Apple pie, you have refused to answer the question i
have posed 3 times. Now im going to hijack this thread to show the
others what it is that you are so afraid to answer. And why! THE FOUNDATIONS Let's closely examine the original, conceptual foundations of the faith, and then decide "...if Christ be not risen. " But in order to do that, we must go back, not 2.000 years to the birth of Christ, but 8 to 10,000 years to the birth of modern man. For when one seeks to establish foundations, one must begin at the beginning. Many thousands of years ago in what we refer to as the the "primordial world" of the ancients, human life was a far different experience to that which we enjoy today. While it is true that we have less documentation on that prehistoric world than we have on our own age, ample enough is known from the ancient writings to paint a rather clear picture of our primitive ancestry. If we have learned anything at all, it is this: The more we change, the more we stav the same. And nowhere is this more clearly demonstrated than in the history of man's quest for "God", and the ancient religion we still keep holy today. According to the best understanding we have gleaned from the available records, life for our ancient forefathers was a mixture of wonder and fear. Each day, just finding food for one's family without becoming a meal yourself for the roaming predatory animals, was a life and death struggle. (If you have ever ventured out on a cold night with insufficient clothing, and without friend or family near, you could quickly see how fearful the dark, cold primordial nights could be) And then came winter! It was from these meager, distressful conditions of the human race that our long history of the search for God and meaning has come. Any evolution, at it's most accelerated rate, is always agonisingly slow. But from the beginning, man's' profound questions demanded answers. When no clear answers were forthcoming from the universe, man turned inward, and developed his own. Keep in mind that all the theological teachings of the Western World were developed in the Northern Hemisphere. The study of this subject is properly called - "Astro-Theology" or, "The Worship of the Heavens". ASTRO-THEOLOGY This is the first, original, and therefore the oldest, and most respected story on Earth! It did not take ancient man very long to decide that in this world the single greatest enemy to be feared was the darkness of night, and all the unknown dangers that came with it. Simply stated, man's first enemy was darkness. Understanding this one fact alone, people can readily see why the greatest and most trustworthy friend the human race could ever have was by far, heaven's greatest gift to the world ... that Glorious Rising Orb of Day ... the SUN With this simple truth understood, we can now begin to unravel an ancient and wonderful story. Today, as in all mankinds' history, it has once again been told anew. Modern-day Christianity has often belittled our ancient ancestors who are not here to defend themselves. They falsely accuse that they were nothing more than ignorant worshippers of the sun. Therefore we can, with assurance, summarily dismiss thousands of years of human spirituality as ignominious myth, believed by well-meaning, but gullible primitives. Too much of this kind of spiritual arrogance and religious pride has continued without challenge. The time has come to set matters straight. THE CHALLENGE First. no people of the ancient world believed the "Sun" to be "God". That belongs in the "disinformation file". In point of fact, every Ancient culture and nation on Earth have all used the Sun as the most logically appropriate symbol to represent the Glory of the unseen Creator of the heavens. Here it is important to remember two points. First, with the exception of Japan, the ancient world mythologies always understood the Sun to be masculine in qualities, and the moon feminine. Second, the English language is derived from the German. In the Germanic, the word 'Sun' is spelled 'Sonne'. The two words can (and have been) used interchangeably. Old Testament: "The heavens are declaring the Glory of God." (PS.19: 1) New Testament: "Jesus is the Glory of God." (2 Cor 4:6) Old Testament: "The SUN of Righteousness will arise with healings in His wings." (Mal 4:2) New Testament: "God's Son/Sun...he is risen!" (Matt 4:16) Saying. "How, often I wanted to gather you under my wing. " |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 5:33am
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The Statue of Liberty...to this day, kings still wear a round "crown of thorns", symbolising the rays of the Sun! The "Ancient Story" went something like this.... 1. The ancient peoples reasoned that no one on Earth could ever lay claim of ownership to the Great Orb of Day. It must belong to the unseen Creator of the Universe. It was, figuratively speaking, not man's, but "GOD'S SUN". Truly, "God's Sun/Son was... THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. 2. As stated before, in the dark cold of night man realised his utter vulnerability to the elements. Each night, mankind was forced to wait for the " Risen Sun" to chase away the physical and mental insecurity brought on by the darkness. Therefore, the morning Sun focused man's attention on heavenly dependents for his frail, short existence on Earth, and in doing so, it became the appropriate symbol of divine benevolence from heaven. 3. So just as small fire brought limited light into man's own little world of darkness, likewise the "Great Fire of Day" served the whole Earth with its heavenly presence. For this reason, it was said at Deut 4:24, and Heb 12:29 that the God of the Bible was a "Consuming Fire" in heaven. And so He is! 4. It was accepted by all that man was bound to a life on Earth, but the sky was God the Father's abode - His dwelling place. Naturally, God's Son/Sun would also reside with his Father " up in HEAVEN". 5. Ancient man saw in his male offspring his own image and likeness, and his own existence as a father was proved by the person of his son. It was assumed that God's 'Sun was but a visible representative of the unseen Creator in heaven. So it was said, "When you have seen the Sun, you have seen the Father ". or "The Father is glorified in his Sun". 6. Ancient man had no problem understanding that all life on Earth depended directly on life-giving energy from the Sun. Consequently, all life was lost without the Sun. It followed that God's 'Sun' was nothing less than "Our very Saviour". If you don't think so, wait 'till it don't come up! 7. Since life is energy, and energy from the Sun gave life, and we sustained our very existence by taking energy in from our food (which came directly from God's Sun), the Sun must give up its life supporting energy so that we may continue to live. "God's Sun gives his life for us to live." 8. While it was plainly true that our life came from and was sustained each day by "Our Saviour... God's Sun", it was and would be true only as long as the Sun would return each morning. Our hope of salvation would be secure only in a "RISEN saviour". For if he did not rise from his grave of darkness,all would be lost. All the world waited patiently for His 'imminent return". The Divine Father would never leave us at the mercy of this world of darkness. His Heavenly promise concerning his Sun was surely that..."He would come again"...to light our path, and save those lost in the darkness ... And He still does... every morning about 5:30 am. 9. Logically, even if man himself died, as long as the Sun comes up each day, life on Earth will continue forever. Therefore, it was said in the ancient texts that everlasting life was "the gift" that the Father gives through his Sun. For..."God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten SUN that we may have life everlasting"....on Earth! Not for you personally - but ON EARTH... everlasting life! 10. Since evil and harm lurked at every turn in the fearful dark of night, all evil or harmful deeds were naturally, the..."works of darkness." 11. With the return of the Sun each morning, man felt more secure in his world and therefore, was at peace. Therefore, God's 'Sun' was with his warm rays of life and hope...The Great "Prince of Peace". 12. And of course the reverse was equally true. The dark evil of night was ruled by none other than..."Prince of Darkness"... The EVIL / DEVIL. 13. Our English words 'Good' and 'God' we get from the German word 'Goth' as in 'Gothic'. Now we see God is Good, and Devil is Evil 14. It was only a short step to see "The Light of God's Sun" equated with the light of truth - and evil equated with darkness. From then on, it was simple to understand... "LIGHT was GOOD - DARK was BAD." 15. That being true, then the Great Orb of Day (God's Sun) could rightly say of itself, "I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, and no man comes to the Father except through me", or one comes to God Only by the Light of Truth. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 5:34am
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16. We should all "give thanks" to the Father for sending us His "Sun".
For the peace and tranquillity he brings to our life is even called
'Solace' - from "Solar" = Sun. 17. We now have before us two (2) cosmic brothers - one very good, and one very evil. One brings the "truth to light" with the "light of truth". The other is the opposite, or in opposition to the light - "The Opposer"... Prince of this World of Darkness- The "Devil". 18. It is at this point that we come to Egypt. More than 3,000 years before Christianity began, the early morning "Sun/ Saviour" was pictured in Egypt as the "New Born Babe". The infant saviour's name was "HORUS". 19. The early morning Sun or "New Born Babe", was pictured in two ways. A) The Dove - Bringer of Peace B) The Hawk - God of War (who punishes the enemies of God!). 20. At daybreak. this wonderful, newborn child, God's 'Sun', is ... 'Born Again' Horus is Risen. Even today, when the Sun comes up, we see it on the "Horus-Risen", or "Horizon". His life was also divided into 12 parts or steps across Heaven each day: 12 HORUS = 12 HOURS. This is the origin of the modern " 12 Step Program". Horus is the (new-born) Sun, or the Bringer of the Light. In Latin, Light Bringer is Lucis, or Lucifer, or Luke. 21. But now, what about the evil brother of God's Sun, that old rascally "Prince of Darkness" himself? In the Egyptian, he was called "SET". We are told in the Bible that when God's Sun died, He left the world in the hands of the Evil Prince of Darkness. This evil prince took over the world at "SON-SET". 22. It was generally observed that 'God's Sun' could be depended upon to return in the same manner that he left, namely, "On a Cloud""..and that "Every eye will see Him"" ... Every evening, go out and watch the Sun leave this world "on a cloud". And next morning, watch to see Him return on a cloud. And every eye will see him come again! ... Unless you're blind! 23. Keep in mind 'God's Sun' symbolically represented the light of truth, but was condemned by His enemies who could not endure the light of truth in their life. The ancients taught that the very act of opposing or denying the light of truth to the point of killing it, happened in one's own mind! When we are confronted with the harsh realities of life, the light of truth, which we do not wish to face, and which runs counter to our views, such truth is judged in your mind, or judged "in the temple area" of your brain, and put to death in your head ! Therefore, 'God's Sun - The Truth and The Light - is put to death at "GOLGOTHA" , or "PLACE OF THE SKULL ", located somewhere between your ears! This putting to death of the light of truth in your mind is always accompanied by two thieves: Regret for the past and Fear of the future. 24. And of course God's 'Sun' goes to His death wearing a "corona" - Latin for "Crown of Thorns" . Remember the Statue of Liberty? To this day, Kings still wear a round crown of thorns, symbolising the rays of the Sun! 25. God's 'Sun' brought His wonderful light to the world, and distributed it over 12 months. So it was said, God's 'Sun' had 12 companions, or helpers, that assisted His life-saving work. So it was, God's 'Sun' had 12 apostles (or months) that followed Him religiously through His life. Incidentally, now you know why the American jury system has 12 jurors who help bring the truth to light, with the "Light of Truth". |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 5:35am
 Above: Samples of the ancient symbol of the winged-Sun flying.." Where every eye can see it" See Hebrew Old Testament...Malachi 4:2, also see Christian New Testament...Mathew 23:37, & Luke 13:34 26. As far back as we can go into the ancient world, we find that all known cultures had a "Three-in-one" Triune God. The very first trinity was simply the three stages of the life of the Sun. A) New Born Savior at dawn. B) Mature, full-grown (The Most High) at 12 (High) noon. C) Old and dying, at the end of day (going back to The Father). All three were of course One Divinity - The Sun three different phases, but one God! The Trinity is truly a mystery...Like electricity, radio, TV, and jumbo-jets are all a mystery to the un-enlightened mind!  27. The Egyptians knew that the Sun was at its highest point in the sky (at high noon). At that point, one offered prayers to the "Most High" God! To the ancients, the sky was the abode, or heavenly temple, of the "Most High". Therefore, God's 'Sun' was doing His heavenly Father's work of enlightening all in the temple at 12 ...not 12 years old, but 12 noon!  Above: God's Sun/Son trying to bring enlightenment to the dark minds of the religious leaders.  28. The world of ancient man kept track of times and seasons by the movement of the Sun daily, monthly, and yearly. For this, the sundial and sun calendars were devised. Not only the daily movement of the Sun was tracked on the round dial, but also the whole year was charted on a round Sun calendar dial. Examples: Ancient Mexican, Mayan, Inca, Aztec, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Celtic, Aryan, etc. With this method, certain new concepts emerged in the mind of ancient man. 29. Since the Earth experienced 4 different seasons, all the same and equal (in time) each year, the round Sun calendar was divided into 4 equal parts. This is also why we have, in the Bible, only 4 Gospels. Of this point, there can be no doubt. The 4 Gospels represent the four 4 seasons which collectively tell the entire story of the life of God's 'Sun'. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. This is why the famous painting of "The Last Supper" pictures the 12 followers of the Sun in four groups (of three) ... the seasons!  Above: God Son/Sun with his 12 faitfhul monthly followers  30. On the round surface of the yearly calendar, you can draw a straight line directly across the middle, cutting the circle in half... one end being the point of the winter solstice; the other end being the point of the summer solstice. Then you can draw another straight line (crossing the first one); one end of the new line being the spring equinox; the other end being the autumn equinox. You now have the starting points for each of the 4 seasons. This is referred to by all major encyclopedias and reference works, both ancient and modern, as "The Cross of the Zodiac". Thus, the life of God's 'Sun' is on "the Cross". This is why we see the round circle of the Sun on the crosses of Christian churches. The next time you pass a Christian church, look for the circle (God's Sun) on the cross. The Sun, since the first day of summer, has each day been moving southward, and stops when it reaches its lowest point in the Northern Hemispheric sky (December 22nd - our winter solstice). At this lowest point, the Sun stops its journey southward. For three days, December 22nd, 23rd , and 24th, the Sun rises on the exact same latitudinal (declination) degree. This is the only time in the year that the Sun actually stops its movement Northward or Southward in our sky. On the morning of December 25th the Sun moves one degree northward beginning its annual journey back to us in the Northern Hemisphere, ultimately bringing our spring. Anything steadily moving all year long that suddenly stops moving for three days was considered to have died. Therefore, God's Sun who was dead for three days, moves one-degree Northward on December 25th beginning its annual journey back to the Northern Hemisphere. The Sun is symbolically ....BORN AGAIN. And to this day, His worshippers still celebrate His BIRTHDAY!.... Merry Christmas. 31. Today we use expressions when someone dies. We say things like, "They Passed", or "They Passed On", or "They Passed Away". The ancients said "They Passed Over" (from one life to another), And so it was with the coming of spring, as God's Sun is "Resurrected" from the Death of Winter to His New Life (in spring). In the ancient world, long before the Hebrews ever existed, the celebration of spring was called "The Pass Over", The Sun, which was dead in winter, has passed over to His new life in spring. This is the origin of the modern Pass Over celebration. This is why Christians also celebrate "The Resurrection", or His return, in spring with a "Sun Rise service"... He kept His Promise, and has returned to us with the Promise of New Life... "HAPPY EASTER-PASSOVER!" |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 5:36am
And if you think this is far fetched. Lets look at some images and old diety's shall we? Ancient Aztec priest with crown of thorns  The rays of the Sun are symbolized by the 'Crown of Thorns'  Crown of thorns  The Sun/Son on the cross. These symbols can be seen on churches around the world. How many sons where on the cross and where are they from?  Is this Jesus? No, it's the aztec saviour  Is this Jesus? No it's Orpheus  Is this Jesus? No it's Ixion  Ahhhh...There is Jesus! No it's the druids HESUS! The Jesus story incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded, such as many of the following world saviors and "sons of God," most or all of whom predate the Christian myth, and a number of whom were crucified or executed. * Adad of Assyria * Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece * Alcides of Thebes * Attis of Phrygia * Baal of Phoenicia * Bali of Afghanistan * Beddru of Japan * Buddha of India * Crite of Chaldea * Deva Tat of Siam * Hesus of the Druids * Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character * Indra of Tibet/India * Jao of Nepal * Krishna of India * Mikado of the Sintoos * Mithra of Persia * Odin of the Scandinavians * Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece * Quetzalcoatl of Mexico * Salivahana of Bermuda * Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple Thomas) * Thor of the Gauls * Universal Monarch of the Sibyls * Xamolxis of Thrace * Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia * Zoar of the Bonzes BUDDHA * Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven." * He was of royal descent. * He crushed a serpent's head. * He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water. * He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness." * He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all. * He was transfigured on a mount. * Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected. * He ascended to Nirvana or "heaven." * Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd", the "Carpenter", the "Infinite and Everlasting." * He was called the "Savior of the World" and the "Light of the World." HORUS OF EGYPT * Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. * He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old. * Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist." * He had 12 disciples. * He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead. * He walked on water. * Horus was transfigured on the Mount. * He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. * He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc. * He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys"). * Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." * Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story. MITHRA OF PERSIA * Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th. * He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. * He had 12 companions or disciples. * He performed miracles. * He was buried in a tomb. * After three days he rose again. * His resurrection was celebrated every year. * Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd." * He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah." * He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb. * His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. * Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. * His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper." KRISHNA * Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") * His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.thousands of infants. * He was of royal descent. * He was baptized in the River Ganges. * He worked miracles and wonders. * He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind. * Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love. * "He lived poor and he loved the poor." * He was transfigured in front of his disciples. * In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves. * He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. * Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word." * He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father." * He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. * His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence." * Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth. PROMETHEUS OF GREECE * Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind. * He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead. * He was called the Logos or Word. Now please Apple pie, understand that you have nothing to sell to us, nomatter how much you try to twist and distort the meaning and understanding of OUR scripture. You should worry about your own first and foremost it seems. Hows it to be saved by Horus the SUN? :lol: (need sun lotion?) Peace Noah |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 7:46pm
|
Greetings Deus, Thanks for your reply� 41.03: ������� ��������� �������� �������� ���������� �������� ����������� Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu qur-anan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona This is more Biblical �alkitabu� material� Please tell us how this negates anything in sura 86�.? Thanks.. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 6:21pm
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All, Who can refute that sura 86 is about:
Thanks... |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 7:33pm
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Apple Pie, your arguments have thus far held no credibility and no one seems to slightly agree with you. Your conclusions have been illogical and your facts seem very far-fetched and false. The fallacy in your arguments is known as �begging the question� (petitio principii) because you draw your conclusions from your premises (i.e. Jesus = God, Jesus was crucified, etc.) which are sadly very fictitious (read Noah�s posts above for sound proof, feel free to refute.) On a lighter note, I�d like to bring your attention to the Apocalypse of Peter. An excerpt: When [Jesus] had said those things, I (Peter) saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?" The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me." Now, why shouldn�t I believe in this version of the tale of Jesus� end? |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 7:43pm
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Greetings Deus, Thanks for adding your comments� Apple Pie, your arguments have thus far held no credibility and no one seems to slightly agree with you. Please come forth with specific portions of sura 86 that are bothering to you� Your conclusions have been illogical and your facts seem very far-fetched and false. Again�.which part(s) of sura 86 do you specifically disagree with�.? The fallacy in your arguments is known as �begging the question� (petitio principii) because you draw your conclusions from your premises (i.e. Jesus = God, Jesus was crucified, etc.) which are sadly very fictitious Are you saying that the Koran is a fictitious work�? (read Noah�s posts above for sound proof, feel free to refute.) Noah�s posts are nothing but plagiarized webpaste propaganda; completely without references whatsoever� Thanks for you concern, however� Come back if you want to share you concern over sura 86�. Thanks� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 4:26pm
this ofcourse, you can prove. Start by explaining the likeness between your make believe god and horus. what is up with that? or how about with the druids hesus? Im eargerly awaiting an answer Peace Noah |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 5:09pm
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Greetings Noah, Thanks for taking the time to read our posts�
Of course� You plagiarized your post from here� http://jordanmaxwell.com/articles/astromain1a.html - http://jordanmaxwell.com/articles/astromain1a.html Start by explaining the likeness between your make believe god and horus. what is up with that? or how about with the druids hesus? You can start by explaining why you thought that you needed to plagiarize the �work� of others� Perhaps in an attempt to cover over your own deficiencies�?
We eagerly await your apology for your blatant plagiarism. Secondly�please tell us of the �author�s� references�.as he also conveniently forgot to show them at his website� Thanks� |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 7:20pm
| Apple Pie is using smoke and mirrors to diverge us from the main point again. It really doesn't matter if the work is "plagerized" (how do you know Noah didn't contact the author for a permission?). What matters is that it is factual, which will make it very difficult for you to refute. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 7:54pm
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Greetings Deus, Thanks for interjecting your opinion� Apple Pie is using smoke and mirrors to diverge us from the main point again. With all due respect, the theme of this thread is sura 86, and how it proclaims:
If you are unable to hold to this subject matter (which obviously you can�t)�.then kindly step aside and let others who can, join in on the discussion�.thanks� It really doesn't matter if the work is "plagerized" (how do you know Noah didn't contact the author for a permission?). Actually, it matters a great deal if Noah�s post is plagiarized�.as this is a serious offence�and this reflects on the person posting the material� Noah never once posted his source�.permission or not�..obviously not�. What matters is that it is factual, which will make it very difficult for you to refute. What matters is if you can hold to the theme of this thread instead of repeatedly turning the other cheek�and slavishly following your buddy�s lead� Time for you to admit that you can�t refute my exegesis� Thanks� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 1:28am
|
The work is not exclusively Jordan Maxwell's. But he is a great sholar,
and evrybody is free to use his works. The last post ie. wasnt his but
mine, written for articles that where posted on davidicke.com. As im into the same kind of research as maxwell, and chose just to post his material rather than rewrite it, i can easily provide you with a litterature list, because there are certain books all researchers have to read. The works of John M. Allegro. The man put in charge of the dead sea scrolls, but like the 2 others before him, he was fired and discredited, when he started talking about what they really said (the scrolls). Get hold of the amplified KJV as there is a very usefull dictionary in the back, that explain why the bible use the word mazzeroth, in lines like "Canst thou bind the sweet influenzes of the mazzaroth?" says God to one of his prophets. You know what mazzaroth is rigth? the pharmacratic inquesistion - Jan Irvin and Andrew Mutajit (they have authored a film aswell, out on gnostic media, avaible here http://ia201107.eu.archive.org/hdd1/movies/pharmacratic-in quisition/Pharmacratic-Inquisition_wmv.wmv) Arthur Kemp - March of the Titans Tony Bushby -The Bible Fraud Elmer H. Gruber -The Original Jesus Prince Nicholas de Vere von Drakenberg -The Thousand-Year Elven Holocaust Eric Jon Phelps - The vatican assasins Lloyd Graham -Myths and Deceptions of the Bible Leonard Schlain -The Alphabet and the Goddess To mention the must read list. If you want to know more about the sources on astro theology, here are some good must reads Amen: The Key to The Mysteries -Leonard Bosman. Astral Worship- J.H. Hill, M.D. Basis of Scripture Prophecy -Sepharial. The Devil�s Pulpit. - Rev. Robert Taylor. Historical Survey Of The Astronomy Of The Ancients. -Rt. Hon. Sir George Cornewall Lewis. etc. I can give you my full litterature list, but why? nomatter who wrote the first posts, what difference does it make? your still worshipping Horus, and trying to tell us that its the right thing to do. Peace Noah |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 3:35pm
Your exegesis is in English. The Quran is Arabic. Thus, I find that it is difficult to follow your exegesis. I would gladly look deeper into your case if it were presented in the language of the scripture it is meant to interpret. This is merely my personal outlook on this matter. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 4:56pm
|
Greetings Noah, Thanks for your reply� The work is not exclusively Jordan Maxwell's. But he is a great sholar, and evrybody is free to use his works. The last post ie. wasnt his but mine, written for articles that where posted on davidicke.com. As im into the same kind of research as maxwell, and chose just to post his material rather than rewrite it, i can easily provide you with a litterature list, because there are certain books all researchers have to read. You still plagiarized his �work�. Period. Thanks for not denying� your still worshipping Horus, and trying to tell us that its the right thing to do. Horus. Horus, the morning star. Sura 86, the morning star. Please inform us how horus came to be contained in the Koran? Thanks� |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 5:00pm
|
Greetings Deus, Thanks for your reply�
Your exegesis is in English. The Quran is Arabic. Thus, I find that it is difficult to follow your exegesis. I would gladly look deeper into your case if it were presented in the language of the scripture it is meant to interpret. This is merely my personal outlook on this matter. You can find the Arabic script of my exegesis here� http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737 - http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737 Thanks� |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 5:49pm
All I see is Sura 86 in Arabic. Where is your exegesis in Arabic? How do you explain the verses which clearly say Jesus is not God and that Jesus was not crucified? I think any Arabic speaking individual(regardless of religious background) would agree that the verses explicitly deny Jesus' divinity and crucification. But what I am most eager to see is your rebuttal of Jordan Maxwell's theories, as presented by Noah. Not because they are anti-Christian, but because they are anti-religion altogether. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 6:12pm
|
Greetings Deus, Thanks for your reply� All I see is Sura 86 in Arabic. Where is your exegesis in Arabic? Perhaps you do not comprehend classic Arabic�as you are unable to refute my post in Arabic nor English� Another stall on your part� How do you explain the verses which clearly say Jesus is not God and that Jesus was not crucified? There are none� I think any Arabic speaking individual(regardless of religious background) would agree that the verses explicitly deny Jesus' divinity and crucification. Please inform us just how speaking modern Arabic will �clarify� the written Classic Arabic of the Koran�? But what I am most eager to see is your rebuttal of Jordan Maxwell's theories, as presented by Noah. Not because they are anti-Christian, but because they are anti-religion altogether. Perhaps you can tell us why Horus, the morning star, is the title of sura 86�.? Thanks� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 6:32pm
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You still plagiarized his �work�. Period. Thanks for not denying�
Horus, the morning star. Sura 86, the morning star. Please inform us how horus came to be contained in the Koran? Thanks�
uhmmm....NO...youre still the one who has explaining to do! |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 6:34pm
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oh and psst...originally the Quran's surahs didnt have names. Just thought id let you know. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 6:47pm
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Greetings Noah, Thanks for your reply� You still plagiarized his �work�. Period. Thanks for not denying�
Actually, you did claim it as your own. The post was under your name�not Maxwell�s name. Nor did you even once mention that the material came directly from Maxwell�s website. In addition, you even bracketed the beginning and ending of Maxwell�s plagiarized webpaste with your own intro and ending� Not very smart. This is what we call plagiarism�
Horus, the morning star. Sura 86, the morning star. Please inform us how horus came to be contained in the Koran? Thanks�
It is simply amazing that you acknowledge that horus was the morning star and that he made his way into your beloved book of faith� Now�.in your vast research into this area�.please inform us exactly how it is that Muslims worship a pagan deity�.?
oh and psst...originally the Quran's surahs didnt have names. Just thought id let you know. Great�..then we are both in agreement that the sura�s were man-made�.and man-manipulated�. Thanks� |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 05 August 2005 at 9:22pm
|
Apple Pie, the exegesis that Muslims generally rely on were written 700-1000 years ago. The language found therein is as understandable as literature written today, which is as understandable as literature written at the time of the Quranic revalation. Instead of asking people to refute your exegesis, why don't you first refute the already existing exegesis by scholars such as Ibn Kathir, Tabari, and others? Your exegesis seems very subjective and opinionated, and it is prohibited for Muslims to accept an exegesis that is based solely on opinion. The interpretation (tafsir) must be supported by reports (hadith) made by Muhammad. As to the naming of the Quranic Surah's... the names were not revealed as part of the Quran. They were added to make it easier for us to distinguish between the surahs (same reason why everything in existence has a name.) Many surahs have more than one name. I thought you'd know this fact, given your vast knowledge in "Classical Arabic" and Quranic exegesis. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 06 August 2005 at 3:24am
deus could i have you post the email answer that i gave you, when you
asked about the post? So we can shut up the troll once and for all?
just like all the verses you post along with word definitions. It is not the issue, the issue is the message, not the messenger.
and added other reseachers work aswell, in the sense that they wrote down from the sources that i listed for you. especially that of john allegro, and manley p hall - the secret teachings of all ages, where Maxwell obviously got most of the research in this article from. This is called making a compendium. Instead of attacking the messenger, you should focus on the message. Deus asked me about the work, and i answered him strieght out whoms work it was, altso.
Just like horus was the christ, just like he walked on water, died for 3 days and was ressurected. I think perhaps the reason someone named the sura like that is because of its reffrence to the piercing star within the sura. traditional refference works will tell you that it is sirius. and sirius is not associated with Horus, and the morning star is traditionally venus. This can be traced back to a greek system forming a trinity with sirius (Seirios)being the female diety. Get your facts streight atleast. Again, you should rather focus on the material presented, than the way it was presented, nomatter if youre comfortable with it or not. the issue here is not me, its the text! As for pagan influences, i cannot and will not denie such. Personally im very sceptic about the ka'baa, as the black cube is an age old symbol of venus and saturn. Interresting that the name givers of the sura's would chose to call the sura the mornings star, and at the same time reffer to it being sirius in their refference works. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 06 August 2005 at 3:01pm
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Greetings Deus, Thanks for your reply� Apple Pie, the exegesis that Muslims generally rely on were written 700-1000 years ago. The language found therein is as understandable as literature written today, which is as understandable as literature written at the time of the Quranic revalation. Wrong. Tafsir�s are no more than personal opinion. They rarely (if ever) show references to the classic Arabic Lexicons, nor to they concord the text to see exactly how it is used else where in scripture� Furthermore, Arabic is a horrendously corrupted language. Modern Arabic is a far cry from classic Arabic� Instead of asking people to refute your exegesis, why don't you first refute the already existing exegesis by scholars such as Ibn Kathir, Tabari, and others? A tafsir is the Muslim �equivalent� of an exegesis. Unfortunately, a tafsir is hardly a critical analysis of anything except the authors� opinion� If you can locate a tafsir that is worthy of comparison to our exegesis, then please bring it forth�as of yet, all have fallen woefully short� Your exegesis seems very subjective and opinionated, and it is prohibited for Muslims to accept an exegesis that is based solely on opinion. Our exegesis is objective. The conclusions drawn by the analysis are rock-solid with ample scriptural support. Again�the only opinion being offered here is your own� The interpretation (tafsir) must be supported by reports (hadith) made by Muhammad. So�.a tafsir on the Koran requires hadith support�.? The Koran cannot stand on its own�.? As to the naming of the Quranic Surah's... the names were not revealed as part of the Quran. No kidding� They were added to make it easier for us to distinguish between the surahs (same reason why everything in existence has a name.) Many surahs have more than one name. I thought you'd know this fact, given your vast knowledge in "Classical Arabic" and Quranic exegesis. We are also cognizant that the lion�s share of sura titles come from the Biblical material of the sura that they are naming� Thanks� |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 06 August 2005 at 5:27pm
|
Greetings Noah, Thanks for your response�
Instead of attacking the messenger, you should focus on the message. Deus asked me about the work, and i answered him strieght out whoms work it was, altso. Again, you should rather focus on the material presented, than the way it was presented, nomatter if youre comfortable with it or not. If the messenger (you) is an admitted plagiarizer�.and obviously does not put forth much effort past a five-minute �google-job��.then this definitely reflects upon the message contained therein, as it also is not very well researched�
Now�.you have just admitted to plagiarizing even more material than Maxwell�s�wonders never cease�
Interresting that the name givers of the sura's would chose to call the sura the mornings star, and at the same time reffer to it being sirius in their refference works. Since (according to your research) you have no issue at all with Horus being the morning star of sura 86; let�s see how far the rabbit hole goes�
Now�you have no choice but to accept these other facts that you also want to pertain to your pagan god Horus�and just from sura 86�.! You truly do worship a pagan god�.
Good move� For the most part, the Koran is 99% translated Biblical material. However, it does contain quite a smorgasbord of other heretical Jewish and Christian scriptures as well. Further, the �allah� of the Koran traces its roots back to pagan Arab deities�which should be right down your alley� Basically, the pagan Arab god �allah� of the Koran has been wrapped in Biblical deity, by the authors who penned the text. By doing so, the authors of the Koran have confirmed that Jesus is God Almighty. We are sure that you were already aware of this� Personally im very sceptic about the ka'baa, as the black cube is an age old symbol of venus and saturn. The �kabba� concept, as most Islamic concepts, has its genesis in the Holy Bible. The �kabba� is taken from the Book of Revelation. Thanks� |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 06 August 2005 at 6:28pm
Yes, Quranic exegesis requires hadith support. I don't understand what you mean by "the Koran cannot stand on its own." Please provide an exegesis for your statement - "the Koran cannot stand on its own" - because it cannot stand on its own. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 06 August 2005 at 6:41pm
|
Greetings Deus, Thanks for your reply�
Yes, Quranic exegesis requires hadith support. Please provide a reference that states this�thanks� I don't understand what you mean by "the Koran cannot stand on its own." Please provide an exegesis for your statement - "the Koran cannot stand on its own" - because it cannot stand on its own. You are the one that stated that your book of faith cannot be �interpreted� without support from hadith�.thus, this tells us that the Koran is not clear, and needs help in order to deliver its intended message� Thanks� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 1:29am
|
I gave you a litterature list, because i know where he got most of his information from. mainly manley p hall as i told you. I have been into this longer than 5 minutes, and i will show you why in a minute. You are just angry that your make believe god does not exist and you know it.
compendium n 1: a publication containing a variety of works [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=collection - collection ] 2: a concise but comprehensive summary of a larger work com�pen�di�um https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcompendium">
Since (according to your research) you have no issue at all with Horus being the morning star of sura 86; let�s see how far the rabbit hole goes�
Now�you
have no choice but to accept these other facts that you also want to
pertain to your pagan god Horus�and just from sura 86�.!
You truly do worship a pagan god�.
whom? this guy?
he was born on the 25th of december etc. etc.. Good move� For the most part, the Koran is 99% translated Biblical material. However, it does contain quite a smorgasbord of other heretical Jewish and Christian scriptures as well.
Further, the �allah� of the Koran traces its roots back to pagan Arab deities�which should be right down your alley�
Basically, the pagan Arab god �allah� of the Koran has been wrapped in Biblical deity, by the authors who penned the text.
By doing so, the authors of the Koran have confirmed that Jesus is God Almighty.
We are sure that you were already aware of this� I am, thats what im trying to tell you. you are worshipping horus, start with sorting that out. then come save us :) The �kabba� concept, as most Islamic concepts, has its genesis in the Holy Bible. The �kabba� is taken from the Book of Revelation.
Thanks�
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m-p
n
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-Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 3:52am
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[quote]Sura 86 is called the morning star not because it refers to a cosmological body, but because it refers to an �individual� �alttariqi�[quote] And before you demonstrate further utter ignorance on the subject at hand. Horus is not an individual, horus is the sun, a facet of the suns travel on the heavens. So whatever the morning star is in Quran, it cant be horus, and you just argued your way into a corner on this. |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 6:42am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 7:25am
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Greetings Noah, Thanks for your replies�
You have plagiarized the work of others. Just admit to this...and don�t do it again�
compendium n 1: a publication containing a variety of works [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=collection - com�pen�di�um https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcompendium">
And you know, as a matter of fact. many great works got preserved this way. Works that no longer exists, but do in parts, in compendiums, like...the bible. Once again�you failed to give your references (surprise). Here is what Webster�s tells us: com�pen�di�um 1 : a brief summary of a larger work or of a field of knowledge : http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=abstract - ab�stract 1 a : disassociated from any specific instance <abstract entity> b : difficult to understand : http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=abstruse - <abstract problems> c : insufficiently factual : http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=formal - <possessed only an abstract right> Thus�even by your very own admission�.you are operating under:
Should we be at all surprised�? Since (according to your research) you have no issue at all with Horus being the morning star of sura 86; let�s see how far the rabbit hole goes�
Where is your evidence�? You have none. Zero. Natta. Zippo.
Yes wich is wrong, the suras doesnt have any names
they could have called the surah little red riding hood, it still hasnt got a name. and it in no way represents the meaning of the verse Wrong. 86.1 & 86.2 both clearly call-out the morning star, �alttariqi�. In fact, 86.1 swears by �alttariqi�...and 86.2 asks the question where you have heard of �alttariqi�, making it an already known entity. This sets the stage for the entire sura.
You call this a rebuttal�.? Pasting in a freeminds rendering�? When are you ever going to get serious�? and its still sirius like it or not. alternatively it can be venus. None of them linked to horus. Dead wrong. Please tell us�
Now�you have no choice but to accept these other facts that you also want to pertain to your pagan god Horus�and just from sura 86�.!
You truly do worship a pagan god�. whom? this guy? he was born on the 25th of december etc. etc.. As long as you keep clinging tenaciously to your �Horus theory�, and you believe in your book of faith, then yes; you are worshiping a pagan god� For the most part, the Koran is 99% translated Biblical material. However, it does contain quite a smorgasbord of other heretical Jewish and Christian scriptures as well.
Now that you are cognizant regarding your book of faith�s origins�how do you feel about worshiping the pagan god horus�? Does it feel good�? Further, the �allah� of the Koran traces its roots back to pagan Arab deities�which should be right down your alley�
its not a name its a term, this is why arab chrisitans call God, Allah. Dead wrong. �allah� is fully rooted in pagan Arab deities. This is a cold, hard, fact of life�.that we can perhaps pursue in the future if you are up to it� As it is�you have already acknowledged (and have absolutely no issue with) the pagan god Horus being discussed in sura 86. Basically, the pagan Arab god �allah� of the Koran has been wrapped in Biblical deity, by the authors who penned the text.
No. We are just using your �research� to show you that you must practice what you preach. You already admitted that the god horus was discussed in sura 86�don�t backtrack on us now� By doing so, the authors of the Koran have confirmed that Jesus is God Almighty.
You tell us�it�s your book of faith� We are sure that you were already aware of this� I am, thats what im trying to tell you. you are worshipping horus, start with sorting that out. then come save us :) If we are worshiping horus (per your theory), then you are also worshiping horus� [quote]Sura 86 is called the morning star not because it refers to a cosmological body, but because it refers to an �individual� �alttariqi�[quote] Again�
You brushed this off before�because you can�t be bothered with putting forth the extra effort into understanding your book of faith� Now�let�s see if you can give it a try to refute your very own �horus theory� when it resides in your beloved book of faith� Don�t run away from the truth� Have fun� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 1:50pm
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Should we be at all surprised�?
86.1 & 86.2 both clearly call-out the morning star, �alttariqi�. In fact, 86.1 swears by �alttariqi�...and 86.2 asks the question where you have heard of �alttariqi�, making it an already known entity. This sets the stage for the entire sura. Yes it was because the
arabs, were heavily into...tadaaa astro theology. Most of that whole
area was. why do you think alat was linked to a monolith?
Pasting in a freeminds rendering�? When are you ever going to get serious�? No i call that calling you on BS. inventing stuff thats not even in the verse regardless of rendering.
we are not the ones claiming that our god was born on the 25th of december (etc all the list i have posted umerous times now) reality check here. Nomatter what you seem to manage to draw out of surah 86, our concept of God is not anything like or similar to that of Horus/Jesus/Mithra/Hesus etc..
Dead wrong. �allah� is fully rooted in pagan Arab deities. This is a cold, hard, fact of life�.that we can perhaps pursue in the future if you are up to it�
no there is a refference to sirius, or venus in another context. I dont know what it is that you think you ahve proved.
We are just using your �research� to show you that you must practice what you preach. You already admitted that the god horus was discussed in sura 86�don�t backtrack on us now�
The Bible? never!
Don�t run away from the truth� Have fun� |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 2:42pm
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Greetings Noah, Thanks for your reply� 1 : a brief summary of a larger work or of a field of knowledge Looks like you are still clinging tenaciously to your choice of words in order to cover up your blatant plagiarism� Let�s add taking things out of context, to your repertoire.
Absolutely amazing�. Not even so much as a hint of a reference to back up your opinion.
Yes it was because the arabs, were heavily into...tadaaa astro theology. Most of that whole area was. why do you think alat was linked to a monolith?
Let us know (if, and when) you ever make up your mind�
no there is a refference to sirius, or venus in another context. I dont know what it is that you think you ahve proved. You already acknowledged that horus was mentioned in sura 86� Want to change your position�already�.?
No i call that calling you on BS. inventing stuff thats not even in the verse regardless of rendering. We have the highest quality Lexicography supporting our position. You have nothing.
The verse is not talking about sirius, its making a refference to it. First of all, it�s not one ayah, but several� Secondly, sura 86 never once makes a reference to Sirius. Try again� Let�s review this cluster of replies from you. It appears that your well of googled answers has run dry�as you slavishly repast the same exact worthless reply�
we are not the ones claiming that our god was born on the 25th of december (etc all the list i have posted umerous times now) reality check here. Nomatter what you seem to manage to draw out of surah 86, our concept of God is not anything like or similar to that of Horus/Jesus/Mithra/Hesus etc..
Surely you are aware of why that date was chosen� Even Stephen Hawking understands this one. We have already proven (according to your very own �researched� criteria), that you worship the pagan god horus�and all from sura 86�! You don�t comprehend Arabic�the very mother-tongue of the book that you are entrusting your eternal soul towards�and you have amply displayed total and complete incompetence at refuting the Arabic�thus, you once again fall completely and utterly flat on your face in attempting to defend it� We ask you again�please put forth a concerted effort in your replies� Thanks� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 3:28pm
Ok, let's look at horus shall we?  -This is an image of the vatican. The mother city of christendom, people are gathered in joy to celebrate; " In 1685 part of the Canon Law of the Church of Rome, which was published in Paris, describes the Pope as "Our Lord God the Pope." In 1896 the Bishop of Bayloone describes him as "The visible personification of the Spirit of God." And here in an amazing quotation from the R.C. 'Universe' (27th June, 1846). The following official description of the installation of a Pope is given - "He is borne in the pontifical chair, and is placed on the High Altar, a spot consecrated by the actual presence of the body, blood, soul and divinity of a living Christ. He sits on the High Altar, using it as his footstool, and enthroned as King; he is adored as a God in the same manner as is the consecrated wafer, adored by the Cardinal Princes, who kiss HIS FEET WHICH REST ON THE ALTAR OF THE SUPREME. He sits in the Temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." (source:http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?printerFrien dly=true&ArtKey=manofsin) Someone who think he is god. Although just another god in this hodge podge theology that is roman catholicism (christendom) and all its branches. In the middle of the Squrare we see this  Now do we know what this is? This is called an obelisk, and we have another rather famous one of those at karnak  just for kicks, here is the inscription on it
Now...why would we find such a thing, in the middle of a SUN wheel in the vatican. Perhaps there is a hint to be found the the roman manual to pagan and canaanite rituals. "Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou art with me; Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me." Psalm 23:4  what we see here is pharao with his rod and staff. The iron rod for kingly rule, the staff for spiritual rule. Altso often represented as 2 keys, as in understanding (thus ruling)of the hidden as well as that wich is seen. The same symbol is used by the pope today.  and still means the same thing. That it is the same kind of thinking, and the same dietys these guys always had. Only they changed a few names and resold the whole deal of the pharaos. It interresting to note here that in Quran God promises that he will preserve the pharao's as clear evidence. And all the scholars think it is the mummy's. Mummy's smchmummy's, they are found all over the world, and many of them indians (and children), they are hardly pharao all of them. The pope, however.... Both into sun worship, uses the same symbols (obelisks, sundials, suncrosses, the rod, the staff and the keys) both think that they are god or God's representative(read: thus rightfull owner) of earth, atleast untill Jesus, horus, mithra, baal or whatever name is hot with the sunworshippers atm. comes back and saves the day on a cloud. But then again. Ofcourse the father of christendom would say wierd stuf like "im God" when he has freind like these   I hope the implications here are obvious, and that i dont have to spell them out. I would strongly suggest that anyone reading this far, look into the following. Santa and shamanism. Shamanism and early relegion, manna and the holy grail.  Heh, look at this chump, he looks as if hed been on it for awhile And then give that the poor man believe that the first people ate from the tree of wisdom ,so that they knew good and bad  thats a funny tree. could it be? Ofcourse youre going to get it all upside down accationally  Youre not catching on to our tune here sweety pie. Whatever book this man administrates and influenced, are of no concern of ours. Nomatter whatever you believe that you find in some obscure langual details in ours. I will quote horus And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 3:41pm
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the morning star http://www.johnpratt.com/items/astronomy/eve_morn.html http://www.khaldea.com/planets/venus_type.shtml http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Venus_Transit/id/4468 and many more as for sirius http://www.ummah.org.uk/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobae053 .htm#49 heres an except And that He (All�h) is the Lord of Sirius (the star which the pagan Arabs used to worship); and basically any refference work on islam will tell you that. Sirius is not linked to horus. However. Sirius can be linked to isis in that part of egyptian theology. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 3:52pm
|
Greetings Noah, Thanks for more of your unreferenced plagiarized webpaste�although; you did manage to slip in one irrelevant weblink� Nice unreferenced pics�albeit none of them come from sources that support your position. Nice slice and dice job� Unfortunately, there was nothing mentioned regarding the classic Arabic of sura 86. You are going to have to work harder at convincing us that horus is not the god of sura 86�as the evidence (according to your theory) points to horus as the god that you worship� Take care� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 4:05pm
whatever
Your miserable attempts at trying to discredit me falls like water
on a gose. It only serves for you to try an remove forcus from the
information that you dont like.
ofcourse
not, i just needed the pictures. If you want the source of the
information, use the comprehensive litterature list you have allready
and start there. Belive it or not, not everything written down in the
world is on the internet. Most of us use this thing called a book for
knowledge. and i be damned if i had to scan in images i can find ON the
net itself.
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Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 4:47pm
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Greetings Noah, Thanks for your reply� Your miserable attempts at trying to discredit me falls like water on a gose. You�re doing a fine job all by yourself� It only serves for you to try an remove forcus from the information that you dont like. The theme of this thread is sura 86�just like the header reads� You seem to want violate the forum rules by �hijacking� this thread as you stated� Well�we have turned the tables on you� You don�t understand your book of faith nearly as well as you thought�as sura 86 confirms that you worship the pagan god horus� You are powerless to refute this�
ofcourse not, i just needed the pictures. If you want the source of the information, use the comprehensive litterature list you have allready and start there. Unfortunately, your weblinks don�t tell us where you stole the photos from� More plagiarism on your part� You will need to be able to reference your articles when you enter junior high school next year�.. We just want you to be prepared� Belive it or not, not everything written down in the world is on the internet. If it�s on the web, then it has a link� Most of us use this thing called a book for knowledge. and i be damned if i had to scan in images i can find ON the net itself. You use nothing but a five minute �googled� effort� You have repeatedly demonstrated this by running away from our sura 86 exegesis�
Sura 86 is about your worship to the god horus�.prove us wrong�. Now�run along and learn Arabic� Thanks� |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 4:49pm
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Well�we have turned the tables on you� only in your mind http://www.freedomdomain.com/relig.htm |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 5:02pm
Where is sura 86...?
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Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 14 August 2005 at 11:13am
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All, Any brave souls want to understand sura 86 with us....? |