Gay muslims?
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URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16026
Printed Date: 24 November 2024 at 9:42pm
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Topic: Gay muslims?
Posted By: ak_m_f
Subject: Gay muslims?
Date Posted: 17 December 2009 at 12:22am
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In my free time I was searching for Al-fatiha recitation, instead I came across this http://www.al-fatiha.org/ its the first hit in google. Turns out its run by some gay Pakistani in US. This led me into thinking, how can one be gay and muslim at same time? |
Replies:
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 17 December 2009 at 4:48am
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Whenever we indulge in any haram activities, we're out of the folds of Islam all that while and indulging in homosexuality is haram - the Divine injunction is clear. There're people attracted to the same sex, not necessarily by choice but indulgence is by choice and is sinful. Like Dr. Sherman Jackson once said : �Make a place for people who have a problem? Yes. Make a place for people who want to redefine Islam? No.�
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 17 December 2009 at 11:38pm
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I have decided to edit my previous post... May be he is positioning for some financial gain cuz it is becoming a fashionable behavior, who knows what from an incomplete site! The gays are one of the most well connected crowd in the US. Remember Obama's multi million dollar campaign kick off from the Beverly Hills mansion of his Jewish buddy David Geffen ( Hollywood's big cahoona and openly gay) Then who going to read this gay Paki the riot act in the US even if you find him somewhere...as gay he has more legal protection than a common Muslim per se in post 911 environment! Everywhere you look they are gaining power through the Jewish led organizations!http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15726 ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 10:34am
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Speechless< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: SteppeNomad
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 1:25pm
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One question............
How?
------------- Ya Allah, Bismillah, AllahuAkbar. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 18 December 2009 at 4:22pm
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How, what? ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: SteppeNomad
Date Posted: 19 December 2009 at 3:59pm
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How, as in, How.......
How can a guy hit on another guy, its disgusting.
Lots of Hows :S
------------- Ya Allah, Bismillah, AllahuAkbar. |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 19 December 2009 at 6:54pm
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It's more like disgraceful..< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 20 December 2009 at 1:23am
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I am using ARES software to download books, movies, songs...
Everytime I try to look for "arabic", most of the things the program is offering me is "gay+morocco" (sorry for the Moroccan who are in the forum
 ).On the other side, there is a book written by a Emirat Muslim woman about sex, and the basis of that book is to teach women whose husband started relations with other men and don't feel fully satisfied with a woman after that:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=24§ion=0&article=119643&d=26&m=2&y=2009 - http://www.arabnews.com/?page=24§ion=0&article=119643&d=26&m=2&y=2009
I know about few Spanish gay men who started relation here in Spain with arabic males, went to arabic countries with them, and there is no problem with the authorities because both of them are men!!! But they are couple... and that's way I don't like when two men, I don't mind if they are arabic or not, hold their hands. I think it's not necessary to do so
In Spain, the Gay Lobby is increasing so much the power that they are on every TV channel, on the Government, in the School... they are trying to destroy our believes, and now it's "fashion" to be a gay!!! It's crazy here, I hopw you will never live this situation.
------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 20 December 2009 at 7:27am
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".......and the basis of that book is to teach women whose husband started relations with other men and don't feel fully satisfied with a woman after that"
A bit of a stretch, don't you think? That is by no means the basis of the book.
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Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 11:10am
Only you sign could blame the jews for gay people.
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Sign*Reader wrote:Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 11:27am
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I have a question for all Muslims... Why is it that you can judge an entire group of peaceful people whom you have never met yet you don't think Christians should be able to judge all Muslims and condemn them for not believing in Christ? There is endless evidence that sexual orientation is from birth and not choice. yet religion is 100 % choice. Before anyone says I am pro gay, I'm not. I do not understand how one man can find anything sexual about another man nor do I want to see two men hugging/kissing or anything else but I do believe in freedom for people to make their own choices as long as it doesn't harm others. So even if your choice is not the one I would make there is nothing I can do about it because it is none of my business. Muslims and actually religious people in general always talk about not judging others and only god himself can judge people yet you bring up a gay man and the judging is off the charts. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 11:55am
| I second the above. I think one can argue that religious fanaticism which we see in the world today is a sickness of the soul. There are gays of all religious creed. There were gays during Muhammad's time (I'm willing to bet even among the crowd during his reign). Gays just don't exist in the U.S as some would think. Its funny I just recently read about the history of the Ottoman jannisary. This group was made up of young slave boys of christian faith whom would personally guard the sultan as well as fight. Yet it was said that these young boys would accompany the sultan in his personal quarters....hmm sounds like some sickness there |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 12:00pm
| Ops you asked how can one find themselves sexually attracted to the same sex. The answer is, unless you are in that individual's brain you won't know. Just like I can ask how can anyone believe in Noah's Ark and God putting every creature in a boat which, according to Biblical measurements would be impossible since there are billions of species of small creatures? Or how can anyone believe in a deity that we can't see? Or a prophet whom which there is no physical proof? |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 12:22pm
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OPs and Gibbs,
You are absolutely right of course. Many Muslims do seem to expect everyone to understand their views, their religion and their 'human rights'. But not all are the same. Everyone should act and live as they chose. I would never enforce anything on anyone. If someone wants to be gay then that is their choice. Religion for me is a personal matter and my belief should never intrude into anothers life. In the same manner I would not expect anyone to intrude into mine. We can be compassionate to all at the end of the day. If we can't then we are hypocrites ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 3:40pm
Hi ops115, sexual orientation may be by birth as you mentioned and not by choice, but to engage in an activity which is described as haram or forbidden by God both in the Quran and in previous revelations would be by choice. A believer in God, and His guidance would always follow the rules they are associating themselves with, if we don't follow any particular rule or rules means we deny that belief and cannot claim to be part of its system. We cannot say we are Muslim, but engage in back bitting, worshiping material or other gods, stealing, immoral behavior and so on. There are those of us who are born with bad temper, and its not Ok for them to practice that in Islam. We must control that behavior, we are told through our practice of faith and prayer and fasting and not take it that, O we are born with it so we must nourish it. No, that was the reason we were given the belief system and rules, to follow them, and not follow our impulses. And how successful we end up being with how much effort and sacrifice will determine our reward. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 4:16pm
How so you oaf, the blame is when the evidence is lacking... you conveniently try to ignore a mile long list of their activists...How come? May be American Exceptionalism... (Hubristic European mindset...It is OK to breed ******s out of wedlock... OK to screw any thing in sight as long as it is consensual, even incest) It is just not the Jews only in this ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 6:36pm
| This topic is very sensitive and I think for the religiously devout, it appears to be quite difficult to be sensitive to the issue. I guess you can't be gay and religious at the same time. Funny, at one point in time you couldn't be of a particular tribe or ethnic group to marry. I can't wait til the old dogmatic farts that run the three faiths die off and allow tolerance of homosexuality cause quite frankly I don't think God cares who you sleep with but, if you are a decent human being |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 8:06pm
Peaceful... as the Brits would say my bloody foot! Most corruption is not necessarily gunslinger based... the laws being forced down passed through the corrupt whore hopping politicians likes of Clinton and fag Barney Frank et al are no less... They are in your face having other nations to tow the American liberalism line is the reality of this mentality and also a mark of Jewish economic and cultural control that is galling!
Oh really! haven't they tried this for last two centuries and failed miserably...but yes they did colonize them and now the struggle of Muslim liberation is shaking the Christian apple cart...As a matter of fact the first thing the Christians were supposed to do was to convince the Jews about the Messiah instead they have become their slaves and doing all the dirty work fighting wars for material on their behalf if you can swallow this truth! Have you ever talked to an Israeli about Christianity and gotten sopat on your face? The Christ came for the children of Israel to stop their money changers business in the Temple but the Paul or Saul found the pagan Europeans a better lot to marry in! BTW The Christians have nothing to do with Christ...He will disown you in a heart beat when he will come face to face to so called Christians, Zionist Christians and what have you!
You are talking from both ends of your mouth... The idiocy is congenital and then want it indoctrinated as normal...It seems you are equating homosexuality with religion...Normal sex is denied to Catholic priesthood and then end up sticking to the poor boys in the rectory so what gives?
As if some one here gives a hoot about your being one or not!
The disease level of STD HIV and death rate amongst gays blows your thesis out of the water! That effects cost of health care for the rest and makes hostages out of normal people cuz it is politically incorrect!
As long as they keep it to themselves and not have the laws made favoring gays! Duh, God has given the judgment already, Reiteration being labeled as judgment is moronic thinking or.."the congenital American optimism that denies conflicts and imagines all stories having happy endings" RJ Samuelson) ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 9:08pm
What difference does it make if you second? I am surprized you are looking in the dead history of Ottomans for some dirt...What they did was not necessarily Islamic, being absolute rulers of the realm they did get away with lot and they are subject to God's punishment in the hereafter and there is nothing to debate about ...An empire lasting 700 years must have some great stuff to last that long not just gay pride you purportedly found  The gays(the indecent folks in his def'n) of Mhmd's time were subject to punishment and still are under law so what is your point? Gays just don't exist in the U.S as some would think.  Come again------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 9:38pm
There nothing to be sensitive about when one comes to the legal issues particularly the Tahara based ... it might be called ignorance and darkness of the soul... The discrimination who one can marry was basically was a racial issue more pervasive in the Christian west or any race based religion! In Islamic lands such restrictions have never existed when one could marry a slave than what else one could ask for? It even permitted to accept the women from other two faiths I mean faithful and chaste not debauched... By the time the farts die off you may also be dead so such wish is as foolish as is the homosexuality's getting it's universal acceptance.. It is quite a preposterous thinking that over rides what God's cares after He has set down the rules! When God has sanctioned homosexuality as an indecent act, what is your authority to make that party as a decent unless your soul is also Jewish one bent upon living in the darkness and infecting others along the way! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 9:51pm
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... ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 5:05am
What Shangri-laites you're talking about?
Judge what? Most of us disagree with each other on some of our beliefs. You believe some of our beliefs are wrong... doesnt bug us. We believe homosexuality is a harmful lifestyle... what bugs you? Why preach to us a standard you dont abide by?
Really? Last time I checked (ie. very recently) that so-called evidence did end - in the dustbin! FTR, homosexuality's got more to do with "nurture" than nature; it aint an orientation from birth rather a developed preference. And yeah, same sex attraction aint necessarily by choice, just as incestuous or adulterous attractions aint necessarily by choice... doesnt justify indulgence however.
First you claimed homosexuality's an orientation from birth, now you say you dont understand... you're confused amigo! Then I guess you'd believe incestuous relationships too should be allowed, as long as it aint harming nobody....
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 5:33am
No surprise.
...just as secular fanaticism and PC hypocrisy.
Someone violating a decree of their religion, contradict their religion.
Maybe, Allah knows best. But whoever truly believe in Islam, strive against homosexuality.
Lot of sick stuff happen all over the world... prevalence doesnt justify it.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 5:43am
Muslims dont believe the whole world got flooded during Noah's time or that he took with him a pair of every species in the world.
By reasoning.
By learning from his legacy.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 6:26am
The World would do a lot better without the libertine bums! And dont try to think for God - you cant! Do you even believe in God? Its not God, its you amigo, who dont care who sleeps with whoever! You're wasting your time if you wanna promote your morally bankrupt beliefs here. Why waste my time on you...
Whoever wants an Islamic perspective on homosexuality, visit http://gaymuslims.org - http://gaymuslims.org .
Whoever wants to promote sodomised propaganda here - sorry!... wrong number. Dont waste your time and importantly other people's time here. No amount of sophistry and inane ramblings' gonna change the fact that homosexual lifestyle is harmful to the individual and society and there's no place for this in Islam. Go boogie in some queer forums....
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: SteppeNomad
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 7:13am
Obviously the janissaries were allowed there because they were the guards of the sultans, just give it a break with your ottoman and Muslim bashing loser, stop winging you got your ass whopped and move on. Anyway, its funny claims of the sultans committing such acts usually comes from orientalist homos themselves. You Europeans love fantasizing about things that are unseen, like presuming harems were orgy spots etc.
Mind you, the Janissaries were the most extreme faction in the empire, your modern day �extremists�, not to mention the fact that the sultans had plenty of your European women in there chambers to have fun with, it can be upsetting being done by Muslims, but that is life. Oh and this has nothing to do with us Muslims being intorelent, Allah forbids us to do such acts, meaning we act against or at least show a stance against what is wrong, dont take in personally against you Your constant Islam bashing is getting ridiculous, you should tone it down abit and stop throwing mud at Muslims every opportunity you get. Someone being gay or not does not concern us, but trying to reform religion so it suits everyones needs, from gays to secularists does, as it clearly contradicts Islam and is a big sin. Im surprised you dont show the same level of support for those �extremist� whom likes of you puke hate about. ------------- Ya Allah, Bismillah, AllahuAkbar. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 12:19pm
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So my difference of opinion is islam bashing? Where in my posts have I directly insulted islam? If you take my comment of gays being among Muslim as something disrespectful then you ought to get over it. The comment regarding the sultan and the jannissaries was in relation to Sign Readers comment on "sickness" of the soul.
I agree, being gay and devoutly religious is seemingly a contradiction. However I believe irrespective of that reality we all define our reality for ourselves. So for the jew or muslim that believes in God or whatever and uses their reason to believe is how they define their reality. I'm not telling anyone to accept homosexuality I'm just posing an alternative. I'm married with kids (and not in the closet) I just see a different side of life. Steppe Nomad I'm not sure I understand your comment on how I got my ass whooped. I've never got my ass whooped by an imperial army so come again? |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 12:54pm
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I can't wait til the old dogmatic farts that run the three faiths die
off and allow tolerance of homosexuality cause quite frankly I don't
think God cares who you sleep with but, if you are a decent human being old dogmatic farts.. what about the ones younger than you??? I think it is not accepted by the vast majority of humans except in pockets like western cities etc. It may exist in other places but it is not at all accepted by the majority of people. You know from my observations I have come to believe that a good portion of people who claim to be 'gay' do so as a rejection of either society or of a particular person or group. It amazed me how many people I knew back in the day- a while ago who said they were 'lesbian' who are now married to men. I believe many women who are 'gay' reject the objectification of women and thus men. It just seems easier and safer. No one wants to be a 'piece of meat' so to speak. And the gay men I have met, had very odd views of women. It was downright creepy to be around. And if someone has 'desires' we live a life to control them. So say I go to the store and want to buy something. Even with credit, unless I can afford I am not to buy it. And just because one has 'desires' does not mean that I should act on them. Nor should society say they are acceptable. And its not about what 'someone does in the bedroom.' Yes there has been deviant behavior throughout history. The difference is that people want acceptance. If the behavior is repugnant why should they say "great let's party!"? I think it ties into the difference with sexuality becoming public and open. Debasement of people in general is the norm. There is little dignity left. Islam has no problem with great sex within bounds. But it is and will be a private matter. If two people of the same sax act in such a matter. God will judge. But that does not mean Muslims should say it is normative behavior. It is not. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 4:56pm
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Well the problem in your response hayfa is the openness of homosexuality versus the existence of homosexuality and no I disagree about majority of people. Unless you know 6.4 billion humans I doubt you know even a fraction of the majority. When referring to majority you are only referring to those of a monotheistic or religious background.
When I refer to the "old farts" I'm referring to the fanatical priests, rabbis, imams that spew hatred. To challenge your view hayfa what of transgendered? Which is the belief that a person feels they are the wrong gender. So what if a biologically born man who is muslim, has an emotional, spiritual, and sexual attraction towards men yet inside he feels like a woman what then? Before you call him crazy my wife says that there is not enough proof that it is biological, psychological, or social. There are many oddities in human beings and just because those behaviors are opposed to the normative attitudes in our respective society doesn't mean they are grossly abhorrent. "God forbid" anyone of you needs emergency surgery from a gay physician. I hope he or she doesn't have "gay cuddies" |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 4:59pm
| In addition there is no "pockets of western countries" most of europe, parts of south america, U.S. Colonies (hawaii) are very accepting to gays and their rights don't differentiate from hetero couples. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 26 December 2009 at 1:46pm
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Hi Gibbs, Transgendered people do exist. And there are people born with both sex organs. It happens. But it is not that common. But its no one's issue if someone has a medical condition. That is why they often have surgery to correct it. Pockets: where do you live. If you go between the west coast cities and east coast cities it is NOT accepted. No people are bot out killing people but they are not happy. South America.... please have you been there.. .been there... Minus is some cities.. tell me where its accepted??? The majority of people don't accept it as non deviant. And as Pati can attest in Spain.. its a vocal minority... And as I said its about public and private... Frankly really if people really check themselves... Thinking about what men do to each other..ummm well they say the 'correct' line of political correctness. But the thought well.. I don't care if someone is gay.. I think alot of people should just put sex back in the privacy of their homes. I don't need it from gay or straight people. lol ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 26 December 2009 at 5:21pm
Being the liberal leftist US government in saddle you may not see your wish materialize! Benefits for gays? Us too, say the unwedOpposite-sex partners in the Foreign Service say they should be treated the same.Reporting from Washington -Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton won praise in June after pushing to extend many federal benefits traditionally provided to diplomats' spouses to gay and lesbian partners. Since then, unmarried heterosexual couples have been lining up to ask for benefits too. They have approached the State Department's personnel office and the diplomats' union, arguing that they are entitled to equal treatment. At least one couple has threatened to challenge the rules in court as discriminatory. The U.S. Office of Personnel Management, which is responsible for policy on federal workers, is weighing such an extension of benefits, U.S. officials say -- to the consternation of conservatives. "They should have seen this coming," said Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), who had opposed extending benefits to gays. "It's a Pandora's box." The family benefits, although a small part of diplomats' overall benefit package, are important to Foreign Service officers. Benefits include paid travel for the partner to and from overseas posts; visas and diplomatic passports; emergency medical treatment; shipment of household possessions; emergency evacuation in times of danger; and education benefits for minor children. Health insurance is not included for gay partners, although spouses are covered. Foreign Service officers contend such help is only fair, especially given the conditions they face in remote and often uncomfortable posts. Conservatives who oppose easing the rules cite the federal Defense of Marriage Act. Passed in 1996 and signed by President Clinton, it defines marriage as between a man and a woman, and says that no state shall be required to recognize a gay marriage performed in another state. "A good argument can be made that even these relatively limited steps violate at least the spirit of the Defense of Marriage Act," said Peter Sprigg, a fellow at the Family Research Council, which advocates for socially conservative causes. He said the pressure from unmarried heterosexual couples "illustrates one of our concerns -- that once you open the door to anyone other than married couples, you're beginning a process of the deconstruction of marriage." Michelle Schohn, spokeswoman for the advocacy group Gays and Lesbians in Foreign Affairs Agencies, said her group was cautioned during the closing days of the George W. Bush administration about the consequences of demanding family benefits for same-sex partners. "If you included opposite-sex domestic partners, you could potentially be running afoul of [the Defense of Marriage Act] by creating this 'marriage light' category," she said. Nationally, most employers -- including almost all public employers -- that extend benefits to same-sex partners also offer them to unmarried, opposite-sex partners, said Ilse de Veer, a principal in the international consulting group Mercer. Those that offer benefits to same-sex partners but not to opposite-sex mates typically cite heterosexual couples' option of marriage, de Veer said.  Unwed heterosexual couples in the United States comprise about 10% of opposite-sex couples living together, census data show. Schohn said her group supported extending benefits to unmarried heterosexual couples. "They're our natural allies," she said. The American Foreign Service Assn., the diplomats' union, has not yet taken a position, said spokesman Tom Switzer, but it "has heard from a number of members who believe that the same benefits should be extended to opposite-sex, unmarried partners as well." A senior State Department official said any benefit extension was up to the White House. "We're prepared to take that step if that's what the White House wants to do," the official said. In June, Obama signed a http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Memorandum-for-the-Heads-of-Executive-Departments-and-Agencies-on-Federal-Benefits-and-Non-Discrimination-6-17-09 - presidential memorandum extending family benefits to same-sex partners -- a concept opposed by Bush's administration. The issue gained visibility in 2007 when the former U.S. ambassador to Romania, Michael Guest, quit the Foreign Service in protest over the issue. Supporters of extending benefits to unmarried heterosexuals include such key Congress members as House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Howard L. Berman (D-Valley Village) and the committee's top Republican, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida. Obama's June memorandum omitted health insurance and pension benefits for same-sex partners. Federal officials estimate that including the broader benefits would have cost $56 million in 2010, several times the price of the narrower benefits. Some legal experts say including the broader benefits could violate the Defense of Marriage Act -- a law that Obama has said should be repealed. ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 27 December 2009 at 7:39am
I can't speak for all of 'em, but yes - this does seem to be a common trend amongst many Homosexuals. Some also 'come out' because they are attracted towards a certain circle of people, lifestyle etc. I was watching one of Chris Crocker's videos on you-tube ('Leave Britney Alone' Kid) and a lot of things he ranted about were about 'being different' 'breaking the mould' 'define normal' . . . etc. For many its about making a statement.
Some of the creepiest serial killers turn out to be Homosexuals ! Just something random that popped into my mind when I read 'creepy' !  Maybe its psychological . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 12:37pm
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Hayfa be careful when comparing being transgendered with someone who is a hermaphrodite. They aren't the same nor the conditions are the same. I doubt transgendered humans would say their condition is medical, as in something that needs to be corrected like having two different organs (penis and vagina) on a female. I'm sure (and my wife can attest to this) medical and psychological professional don't commence in treating gays or transgendered for what many professionals believe is a "born" state. To do so would be unethical and a violation (depending on the laws of the state).
Speaking of traveling I've traveled to various countries such as Spain, Brazil (only visited there and mantupichu or however you spell it) most of Europe, Tahiti, U.S. Samoa so I guess ironically when encountering homosexuals I was lucky that their open behavior was accepted. However now that I'm thinking about it I guess when referring to acceptance we aren't on the same page. I'm using acceptance and tolerance interchangeably. I think many homosexuals have trouble with full acceptance because heterosexuals demonize the lifestyle in social interactions and language. An example of pejorative language were the male respondents towards the beginning of this thread who called it "sick" nasty because two men are attracted to each other. If God truly hated homosexuality it wouldn't exist not in humans nor in some of the animals on earth. If anything God knows the hearts of humans right? Perhaps instead of calling the lifestyle sick or gross perhaps religious folk should bask in the wisdom of their god on how such behavior exist in the first place. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 1:01pm
Thats such weak logic. Just because something exists does not mean God loves it (i.e. doesnt hate it) or condones it. So what if animals exhibit it too ? Does not mean it becomes acceptable. Animals will also cannibalize, have incest, etc.
Yes, only God knows our struggles and our hearts, and He shall hopefully judge us according to our circumstances. Our hearts are not in our control - but our actions are. Perhaps having homosexual tendencies cannot be judged, but the actions can. You cannot control your tendencies but you can control your actions. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 2:14pm
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If God truly hated homosexuality it wouldn't exist not in humans nor in some of the animals on earth.
yes many animals will kill and eat their young.. the two does not correlate...
God gives us the freedom to choose actions. I am not married. I have the choice to engage in actions that are deemed by Islam to be haram. Am I allowed to sleep with any men, no, even if there are 'desires' I CHOOSE my actions.
And every society has its standards it sets on behavior, public and private actions. For instance in most places people have to wear clothes. Try going naked into any places and see what happens. Any society / group of people can say what actions or behaviors are the acceptable norms.
And really Gibbs, do you see Muslims out killing gay people? They leave gay people alone. Yes you are right there is a difference between acceptance and tolerance. I saw cross-dressers in Pakistan. They were left alone. Are they "accepted' doubt it.
And yes stuff exists all over the globe. But no way will Islam say it is okay.. if it is not relations between a husband and wife it is not accepted. Could be two men, man and woman, a threesome and any other categories.
And in the UD and other places Gay marriage will become legal, but it is about indivual rights. And so can anyone say they should not have the same rights under the laws as they are written? No. So be it.
Its like India banned porn on the interent. They have that right. But to think that Muslims will go against what they believe something that is haram. Its like sanctioning sex outside of marriage between men and women.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 30 December 2009 at 10:10am
|
Chrysalis I've never been good at Socratic arguments and since I was pushed on time out came that statement so allow me to elaborate. The argument made by Muslims and many other religionist is that being homosexuality is a choice. Now the basis of the religionist argument is religious mixed with biology. One, God made male and female to procreate and populate the planet anything opposing that is a choice.
The problem with Freewill especially in this case does not give into account psychological and emotional phenomena that may happen naturally. There is no proof that homosexuality is purely a choice as someone rejecting heterosexual norms. No. Just like there is no proof saying transgendered is a medical condition as Hayfa exclaimed. If there are young, old, gay muslim men perhaps those internal feelings (biological or psychological) are just simply a natural state. Perhaps one could pray, but to tell someone to pray to "get the gay out of them" is adversive logic. Because in essence you are telling them to deny part of themselves. To address the commonality of homosexuality, in muslim lands of course there is little record of it because of social stigma and repricussion. No offense but it seems when Islamic law is enacted all humans being under that law do not have the 'freedom' to exercise their full human potential, that is, to truly be who they are. So I guess my question to God is, if it is truly unethical and so wrong (wrong enough to destroy an entire people over) why has it been around so long? And not just that but what about transsexual? Transgendered? |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 30 December 2009 at 10:24am
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Hayfa,
There is a common misperception about choice and a natural state of being. In your case nobody is gay unless they commence in homosexual activity. That is a common belief but its wrong. Its wrong because you tie in how someone naturally feels with choosing to feel. That is like saying I choose to like women. No. The average person would say "that is just how I feel" of course one could say social influences factor but its a natural feeling. So with respect to you saying people choose to have that lifestyle you might want to be open to alternative views. Choosing to be single and unwed is different than choosing to be gay just like people don't choose to be transgendered. As far as cross-dressers being out in the open in pakistan, that may be looked at as something progressive, but that doesn't mean full acceptance. Married heterosexual men can cross dress. But that is different from openly being gay. One you can turn on and off and the other you can't. There is no egalitarian society where all humans can exercise their full potential because laws are made to limit abnormal behavior and in some cases what is normal to one or 1,000 maybe abnormal to the government. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 December 2009 at 8:31pm
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Desires can be endless and they flourish in our hearts and minds when we let them. In case of us, the humans, we all in one way or the other are put to control our desires. I don't know a place on earth that can be an exception! Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 12:38am
| So should the gay muslim deny what he or she feels naturally even if the feeling is not a choice? |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 1:27am
"Gay Muslim" is an Oxymoron - because "Muslim" means "one who submits to God". This means submitting your desires & inclinations to your Creator. So if a Muslim is having tendencies, which are clearly against Islam - then yes, they need to be denied. That includes the tendency towards Homosexual behavior, sexual perversion e.g. incest, adultery, premarital sex. No, its not "homophobia" or "discrimination". Not all tendencies are to be followed through . . . nor is it healthy to always give in to whims & desires. Homosexuality as something "natural" or "biological" is questionable. . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 2:25am
Actually, for us Muslims - the basis of rejecting Homosexuality as acceptable behavior is because Allah said so. Full stop. However, as humans we make attempts to find reasons and logic to convince either ourselves or others as to why. Or to contemplate upon supposed reasons. . . natural curiosity.
There seems to have been a recent trend in which Science looks for biological or genetic reasons to explain every behavior of ours. I don't think that every tendency of ours has a genetic or biological reason. The recent trend in the West seems to be finding excuses to excuse bad or abnormal behavior as "Aww, its not your fault. Its your DNA". And when you start thinking "its not in your hands" you fall back on the excuse rather than taking responsibility for your actions. And I'm not just referring to homosexuality, at least its doesn't effect others - but other actions like alcoholism, compulsive stealing (whats it called again ?) etc etc. We as human beings have the tendency and ability to develop a liking to almost anything. Developing personal preferences does not always make it natural or biological. If so, then what about Serial Killers or Rapists who have the urge to inflict harm on others & derive pleasure from it ? There so many kinds of perversions existing today - I am sure all of them claim "they cannot help it". I guess Paedophiles cannot help bieng attracted to kids either . . . lets excuse them too. I am not finding excuses for all these perverted behaviours - simply saying that the theory "if its natural & biological - its okay and not your fault" is faulty.
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw "Sometimes telling someone to "Be yourself" is the worse advise you can give them". Not all "parts of ourselves" are to be embraced. Sometimes we have to deny part of ourselves or aspects of our personality, because its simply not right. (Again, not only referring to Homosexuality, just saying that the argument doesn't sit well with me.) BTW even according to the Kinsey Scale (often quoted in reference to homosexuality), which rates sexuality on a scale of 0 (exclusively heterosexual) to 6 (exclusively homosexual) - people are seldom a perfect 6 or a perfect 0 ! The scale suggests that we all have the "ability" and "tendency" to be attracted to the same gender. Which is why according to sexologists even homosexuals may fantasize or have urges (dreams) towards the opposite gender - similarly heterosexuals may find aspects of the same gender . . . how to put it delicately . . . arousing. To me, this seems to suggest that we are not "born" Gay or Straight - we "develop" sexual preferences along the way. And as human beings, anything of a sexual nature, can 'arouse' us - that does not necessarily mean we are homosexuals. . . "Kinsey himself avoided and disapproved of using terms like homosexual or heterosexual to describe individuals, asserting that sexuality is prone to change over time, and that sexual behavior can be understood both as physical contact as well as purely psychological phenomena (desire, sexual attraction, fantasy)" - (forced to quote Wiki, due to an extreme attack of laziness, pls excuse the felony for once , however this is a summation from his "Kinsey Report")My conclusion : Homosexuality is not a "biological" or "by-birth" preference - it is a preference we develop by choice, since all of us have the ... err, ability or tendency to go down that path.
Will agree to the extent that under Islamic Law - personal whims & desires take a backseat to the Law. Yes, freedom to do whatever we want is not absolute . . . and we can exercise our rights, freewill & "freedom" within certain limitations only. However, how that leads you to think it limits human beings from exercising their "full potential" is beyond me !!! I assume that you seem to think that "being Gay" is somehow is reaching their full human potential. (Maybe as a make-up artist or cat-walk instructor on America's Next Top Model - kidding!) I think even Gays have more human potential in them than simply expressing/embracing their sexual preference . . . Islamic Law in no way restricts human's from reaching their maximum human potentials.
Probably for the same reason that idol worship, adultery, murders, prostitution, oppression, has been around for so long. i.e. we as human beings choose to practice it. Again, the mere existence of an act or behavior - even if it be for centuries - does not validate it. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 9:34am
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I think it goes to the 'just express ourselves' mentality. That almost all types of 'expression' are good and important. When in Islam public expression for public expression is looked down upon. Even worshiping for 'public consumption' is frowned upon. And that we should fully 'accept' people in all aspects of their lives. But that's like saying I should 'accept' my brother's alcohol consumption. Do I accept he has a problem-yes. Do I go out and buy alcohol or encourage it.. no. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 9:46am
What about them? Gender dysphoria and sexual orientation are two different issues. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 9:56am
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Saladin,
You're right. But if you have a woman who feels she is in the wrong body and does a sex change but is attracted to females is she not transgendered (and described above) and homosexual (as she is biologically female but desires same sex)? |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 9:58am
| Chrysalis you wrote a lot and flattered you took time to respond, but if you don't mind let me address those important issues. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:32am
Whether its a gender conforming homosexual or a gender dysphoric homosexual, Gender dysphoria and sexual orientation are two different issues. And homosexuality is only a developed preference.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:39am
I think you are oversimplifying things. Science (in my opinion) doesn't justify deviant human behavior by looking at genes as the sole reason for deviant behavior. I think many scientist researchers look at contributing factor for deviant behavior but its typical that religionist think science is trying to answer everything since thr media has made the presentation of scientific discovery possible. No offense, but last time I checked the Bible, Quran, or Torah had nothing about pancreatic cancer and treating it. So instead of relying on holy books to treat cancer patients we rely on medication treatment which science has made possible. When speaking on pedophilia and other perverse behavior you would have to do personal research but just because someone is a pedophile or does odd behavior doesn't always mean porn caused them to do it. There is a condition called Bilateral temporal lesions which causes hypersexuality that is, it may contribute to pedophilia. I also can't believe you quoted Alfred Kinsey. His stuff is like old. I am talking about 30 plus years old. When I was in college some...."years ago" I did a presentation on this guy and although he contributed greatly on human sexuality in psychology that stuff changes over time and besides his research studies were done on his students which is not representative of the whole population. Did you know that Chrysalis? Anyway, This is another example of seeing what you want to see. Yes we all unconsciously have fantasies of the same sex. Hell, babies masturbate but you aren't proving your case that homosexuality is a choice but individual preference. Before we choose or prefer something, the attraction to a thing has an origin. Let me test your wits Chrysalis. Imagine a 17 year-old Muslim male named Ahmad living in egypt. He has a prominent family and he (Ahmad) is currently in college. His parents plan on arranging him to be married but in the meantime Ahmad is trying to get his degree. However Ahmad is not happy about being married because deep down Ahmad has always had an attraction to men. I know this is a made up scenarioo but can you show or elaborate how Ahmad chooses to have those feelings? |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:42am
| Saladin how does someone develop a sexual preference? There are gay men who were nurtured in a way heterosexual men are and still turn out gay sooooo I don't understand |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:47am
| Chrysalis excuse me for saying "gay muslim" how about a male or female who is gay but religion is Islam. By the way something that I forgot to mention in my last post to you was, when I told you about how islamic law limits human potential I defined it as one who expresses themselves full that includes being a movie star, porn star, or expressing their personality that is hetero or homosexuality. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:51am
|
Saladin how does someone develop a sexual preference? There are gay men who were nurtured in a way heterosexual men are and still turn out gay sooooo I don't understand
To a large degree, due to environmental factors and influences.... ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 10:56am
| Um being raised in a social setting is environmental so I don't understand. If I'm raised as a boy playing with toy trucks and guns (gender specific toys) and I grow up and turn gay what about my environment influences me being gay? You also said influences.....what other influences? |
Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 12:49pm
Trust me, I don't ignore what they have done but people like you can not be trusted in anyway, you blame everything on the west and the Jews. You will not look at anything but what fits your arguments, you are no different than any right wing nut in the US.
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Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 1:11pm
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Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 1:30pm
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 4:07pm
It is pretty obvious arguing with idiot will not matter much! A person who sees what they have done in one breath and than blame me for a fact that is in his backyard! Who is blaming every thing when the facts are written all over! The right wing party is as clueless as the liberals when it comes to following their own books...Both are bunch of hypocrites they find justification under American exceptionalism for all of their monkey business whether it's stealing, drugs, moral turpitude or what have you... It seems God has placed modern China who will able to deal with them in their own coin and put them in their place ultimately! The Chinese policy towards the gay issue remains the "Three nos": no approval, no disapproval, and no promotion. I will take two nos for now! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 5:49pm
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:05pm
| JihadX you have just proved my point |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 6:22pm
The point is, gays are disgusting or the one supporting them or both ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 8:02pm
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Indeed, both!< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 31 December 2009 at 9:31pm
| Look at the pot (or pots) calling the kettle black and I thought muslims hated stereotypes. So apparently I'm disgusting for proposing that we except humans for who they are not what they do. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 1:26am
what kind of gibberish is this? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 9:50am
Unless you can prove that homosexuals were born with their sexual orientation hardwired, there's no point in me elaborating on this. The burden of proof is on you, Freud! ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 9:56am
| Sign Reader are you that anal about typos? Don't be st**id you knew what I meant |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 9:58am
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JihadX
I wouldn't be saying that. I have yet to read anything "profound" written from you sir. Besides aren't you African-American? I assumed this judging from some of your writings. If not I apologize but if you are it is sad that you feel that way since many Catholic/Christian parishioners felt that way about people of color (and still do) at one point in time |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 10:01am
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Saladin,
I've never proposed anything about the origin of sexual orientation. I only proposed alternative views. Just like proving God exists, the burden is on you to prove that hetero and homosexuality is a choice. Oh by the way saying Allah said so was already used and not proven so if you have any ideas please share |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 10:46am
Never heard of homos murdering, raping, cannibalizing, etc. on par with heteros. Never heard of misogyny and transphobia among homos?... come out of wonderland Alice!
Let me reword my response for you to make it easy on ya - It doesnt bother us if you judge us for our beliefs, just dont try to impose your's on us.
We have a Book that gives us the guidelines; which exhorts us to use our brains and if it wasnt for the early Muslims introducing Science as we know it now, y'all would be wandering on philosophy. Who's ignoring science? Science reveals the dangers of sodomy, yet y'all defend that. It takes a badly screwed head to indulge in that... funny how romance's being sodomized to the extent sodomy's being romanticized!
Got it! You aint convinced of your basis for the belief that its from birth.
You're deliberately being deceptive or you're a little slow on the uptake? What about incest between consenting adults?
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 11:54am
Well, if your view's based on an assumption that sexual orientation's hardwired from birth... sorry, the burden of proof's still on you. If it aint, you're conceding that homosexuality's a developed preference. Sooooo, argue with yourself and come to a conclusion. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 2:06pm
| If you are asking my view just ask it. Do I believe homosexuality is hard wired? Possibly. But I also think that sexual orientation is somewhat influenced by social factors. HOWEVER there cases where homosexual men and women raised in an heterosexual environment and were given gender specific toys and dress in gender specific colors and still turn out gay. How do you explain this? |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 8:27pm
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Wow. The fact is that no one cares about what infidels think. I certainly don't care and you opening your mouth was a complete waste of time.< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 9:24pm
| JihadX the fact that you are responding to this thread shows you "care" because you are entertaining another's opinion. |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 01 January 2010 at 11:00pm
|
Chup ke chut hai < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 7:37am
Color/Skin/Race/Ethnicity is something you can't choose or change whereas homosexuality is a lifestyle of choice. (I say lifestyle of choice, because even if one agrees to accept the possibility of Gayness being by-birth - you still have power over your lifestyle) - so the two analogies don't really go . . . PS: Will address the other points later in detail. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 9:24am
Why do you even respond? Haven't you signed up to go blow yourself up or something? Oh yeah, too much fear for that.
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Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 9:26am
Why would people stand up for suicide bombers? They can't even be classified as people, they are nothing but dogs and pigs who are too st**id to do anything but flip a switch.
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Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 9:29am
I wish you would learn how to type so people could understand what you are ranting about. Again you are just like the far left or far right, only hear what you want to.
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Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 9:48am
Sign why are you such a bigot?
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 02 January 2010 at 1:09pm
Cuz I love you so much and would like to save you from the brimstone...& Allah is my witness... I ma not sure about the people whose living is of the exploitation of the sex in whatever form have any hope of redemption cuz sex in it's has replaced the god in their sick lives...whether it is prostitution, child abuse, extreme in all varieties, bestiality, porn etc. The people who are involved in this are mostly of Jewish backgrounds...Don't believe me go check them yourself...checkout the San Fernando Valley's porn industry and the video distribution companies who owns them...How do I know cuz I bought a muti media company unwittingly and saw what was what.. I took a bath but got out before it made me sick of the reality...You had to be a pig to stay if you know what I mean...They had it all, millions in profit with sex, booze and drugs ridden broken lives without any soul for dollars and calling it adult entertainment lacking any honesty! BTW the kind of porn the gay men preferred were the obese and ugly women stuff in order to keep their hate of the opposite sex alive some freedom of thought! Would you call the biblical prophets as bigots? What part in my posts is untrue? Is truth bigotry? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 8:06am
Chrysalis that doesn't make sense. How is sexual orientation a life style? What is the life style of a heterosexual? How does one choose a gay lifestyle? What does that mean? I think you maybe missing my point. There is no singularity here. There is no such thing as a "gay lifestyle" except the fact that one's sexual orientation is opposite that of someone heterosexual. How gays live differ across the world. They are doctors, lawyers, judges, hell, they may be in your family. If you are going to explain homosexual lifestyle explain heterosexual lifestyle and how we choose to be heterosexual |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 9:24am
You give the outline of a case and expect an explanation? This the way pro-homo camp reach conclusions? ..."they were raised hetero, given gender specific toys and dresses but still turned out homo - Eureka! They got the homo gene!"
 What about the necessary details of the subjects that have to be studied and tested? With lack of info, we can only speculate.Is this a real scenario or hypothetical? Cuz if its real, I assume you might have the details regarding the subjects... perhaps you can enlighten us on the PROVEN causal factor(s) that any studies of them revealed for their behavior and also explain how behaviors thats detrimental to our wellbeing can be accepted as normal behaviors, whether we've a predisposition to them or not.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 10:27am
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Assalamu Alaikum, This topic has been discussed several times at length in the past. Please refer to past discussions.
If anyone has any further doubt about Islam's stand on the topic, please consult a qualified Islamic scholar and refrain from starting any other thread on the topic.
------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |