illegal immigrants
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: General Islamic Matter
Forum Description: Discuss Islamic matters/issues that not covered by other sub catagories
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16050
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 11:52pm
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Topic: illegal immigrants
Posted By: Full of Hopes
Subject: illegal immigrants
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 5:56am
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Asslamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatu Allah -------------  And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Replies:
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 7:58am
| Feeding and employing are two separate and distinct issues. Mecca and Medinah have organized gangs who use children and the seemly poor to collect large sums of money. I think it is a wise social policy not to encourage employment of illegals, as often they are grossly mistreated due to their status. I know of at least one very organized charity in Jeddah that feeds, clothes and provides healthcare to these poor - mostly Africans who are seen in and around the Haraam in Mecca. You may want to support such organizations financially. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 10:14am
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It is a complicated issues.. And a questions can people REALLY legally emigrate to Saudi? I hear there are great restrictions.. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 11:54am
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Asslamu Alaikum ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 12:05pm
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Asslamu Alaikum ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 12:17pm
| Those who enter the Kingdom legally often do so with great expense in order to take advantage of better living wages. Illegal workers drive salaries down at the expense of legal migrants, and are problematic in terms of crimes and tracking their whereabouts when the need arises to investigate criminal activity. Charity with respect to food and medical are humanitarian aids and in my opinion should trump law - especially in Saudi. |
Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 12:31pm
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Asslamu Aalikum ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 1:12pm
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She can go to her embassy for a passport. Let her leave the country, (she can hop over to Bahrain) and bring her back legally. If you know the right contacts (waasita), even that will not be necessary. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 2:40pm
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Salams F.O.H's
You are right that Allah asks us about our good deeds and hearts. Unfortunately because all borders are closed in the world then immigration problems will always be there....unless of course governments change their rules. Do you think Saudi will change their rulings on these issues? People are exploited by the more advantaged people everywhere. BUt the exploited also know the rules in place before they leave their own homes. It is truly a question that cannot be answered satisfactorily :( ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 21 December 2009 at 10:09pm
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The modern day countries are too involved with these things. I'm sure back in the time of Sahabah and our prophet saws, muslims were always welcomed into the communities. Nowadays passports are needed etc.. Maybe people forget about these things. I think it's sad and it's a reasonwhy the modern day is no good for me.< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 22 December 2009 at 8:55am
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Jihad: good point. FOH: they can illegal immigrate but can they LEGALLY be able to become citizens? Why stay: well its FAR worse where they are from. Why would you not want to try and make a better life for your kids? The nation state is a false boundary.. we can exclude you and keep you.. mentality. I remember watching a piece on Peru with the underground economy produced billions of dollars. And without identification, or ownership, people are limited for advancing. The rules to participate were so hard that they could not change their status. They got the government to ease the restrictions and it really helped many people. It was a fascinating piece. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 December 2009 at 10:34am
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Very good and interesting discussion . . . I once read a hadith that if a Muslim asks for "sanctuary" in the Haram, then they should be given sanctuary there - and no one should harm them. If so, can people still do that in today's time and age ? Or does Saudi Law reign supreme? ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 22 December 2009 at 10:51am
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Asslamu Alaikum ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 22 December 2009 at 10:58am
 This is TRUE brother.. you are 100% right. may Allah forgive us.. this is the price of modern life and technology. BUT the main reason for this is the weak imaan. People forget that Allah is the ONLY one who can offer the rizq.. so they think those poor Muslims will finish the food and money.. Really, this a very touchy reply. ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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JihadX wrote:Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 22 December 2009 at 11:02am
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Asslamu Alaikum ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 December 2009 at 11:06am
This is nothing, do you there are counties that bicker over things such as "Halal Certfication" ? For e.g Malaysia insists on using thier own certification and will not accept American or Australian Halal certification! They insist upon going thru the entire process again. Similarly Brunei will not accept Malaysian Halal certificate - and even though they are a tiny country - they want thier own process! There is no "internationally accepted" Halal label - even though there is an internationally accepted "Kosher" Label !!! All because each country wants to "earn" money by introducing thier own Halal certificate and process!!! Sad Sad Sad.  Look at what most of Europe has done through the EU ! Same currency, no visa issues etc etc. We need to do the same. InshAllah I hope the Muslim world can someday be the same for us Muslims. Let us not lose hope. . . inshAllah someday.  . Before colonization we Muslims were not like that. . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 22 December 2009 at 11:39am
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YEAH,,you are right sister Crysalis,, when I think about Muslims today, I really become full of tears. sad sad sad..  But I believe we can at least change ourselves and make other Muslims feel they are our real brothers even if they do not have an ID. YOUR great ID is Islam. Sister. we must start the change first from ourselves. I say it is not easy many even good Muslims will stand in your way and you will face great difficulty but never give up.. Muslims are BROTHERS.. if some one is sick with the reality,, then let us enjoy our dreams. Let me say I least I treat Muslims as my brothers and all Muslim women are my sisters. I should not let those sick minds affect me. well this really makes me cry.. maybe we should stop discussing this.------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: SteppeNomad
Date Posted: 23 December 2009 at 4:51am
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Is this a Joke? LoL who the hell are you lot to tell people if they should immigrate legally or not, or accuse them of crimes and other ill beings when most of you cant even criticize your own backyard. Whats more disgusting is these people come from all over the world in search for a better life for themselves and there family (which is totally there right to do so), id love to see those whom complain about them switch over to their side for a month, take their family and everything to live in thier conditions and then let us see if you mention anything about abiding �to the laws� or going back to Bahrain to come back in legally esp when most of these people dont have the benefit to know the language, laws, or most are even uneducated in their own language let alone being able to know what is what in a foreign land. Forget as Muslims, but as humans you lot should have at least a bit more sympathy for these people. What is more funny is most of these people whom criticize illegal immigrants themselves are homeless slaves whos forefathers had to go through the same trouble. No wonder your countries and societies are so backwards because you lot cant even do justice on these poor people. As for Saudi, legal or illegal ive seen how people there get treated like...., so no need to talk as if they are going to become royals if they get a visa or legal stay. There was an incident just outside the Masjid of Nabi saw where this Asian fellow was on the floor naked (just had his underwear on), I went to help him and this Saudi guy came and tried to tell me to leave �haji yallah yallah� then he tried to drag this malnourish dude on the floor, we almost had a fight there because of that, but then this .....left, anyway in such a kind of society you can expect any type of .......behaviour. Old saying goes, the one whos stomach is full will never understand the one whos stomach is empty, people dont become maids and slaves, clean other peoples dirt because they want to, its because they want to stay alive, Ya Allah, do you people even know the basics of humanity? |
Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 12:04pm
Of course this is (above story) one of a bad apple. However, Saudi govt must act to stop this bad apple, to make sure this behavior does not transmit to other apples. I heard this kind of story from my Indonesian brothers and sisters that many Indonesian sisters who work there legally as maid have bad treatment. Based on many sources over 50k Indonesian sisters work in Saudi as maid. If Saudi govt not act brother and sister in Saudi should push the govt to do so, because whatever Saudis've done we like it or not will reflect to the image of Islam. ------------- Salam/Peace, Semar "We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) "1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air" |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 12:31pm
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Salams,
All of us should have sympathy, empathy for others. Many illegals are treated abominably, but there are also those illegals that treat other humans in a bad way. If we could tell the difference between the good and bad apple then it would help. Governments can be too harsh or too soft on immigration issues. It's about getting the right balance so all have equal opportunities. NOthing wrong at all in migrating for the improvement of yourself and family...as long as others you come into contact with don't suffer . ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 5:09pm
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Asalaam Alaikum, I do not think ANY system is perfect. Any system that regulates will have either flaws- be exploited or not. We as humans can only deal with people on a case by case basis and do the best we can. And that is why we face justice in the afterlife because we cannot always tell one bad apple or another. Its like people here in the US, don't mind helping the elderly and the disabled etc. But its those who try to 'cheat' that bothers people. I wonder if Saudi Arabia opened up its immigration what would happen? Where does all that black gold wealth go???? ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 24 December 2009 at 6:25pm
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The Islamic system is the only system that DOES work. Islam is perfect. There aren't any flaws.< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 1:01am
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JihadX,
So...you are right. BUt the Islamic system will not work on earth because people will always be flawed, even if they have shariah law in their country. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 9:00am
Asslamu Alaikum may Allah bless you brother, I am so proud of you. I did not know you in past, mashallah. We say when you thank someone, ao kma nahsabuh, this means when you thank someone you say, that is what I think, because Allah knows the hidden things in hearts, while we see the appearance and still have limits. Just want to say,mashallah, you are of those rare people whom this Ummah needs today. Stay here, but you need to be very patient and fight for the sake of Allah.  Jihad is big word. You will face some here, say they are Muslims but they have taken from Islam just the name. Some talk without knowledge and never say we do not know!! While there are many many good brothers and sisters here who served Islam and spared the light and the good Islamic manners every place here..The administrator and the moderators are good people, ao kma nahsabuhm,so that will encourage you a lot. Just stay with them. I do the same. I love to stay with the good sisters here. May Allah bless you..I am telling you this because I know how it is hard for someone honest like you to live in these days. ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 1:22pm
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Salams F.O.H's
I don't think you know this brother very well sister :( ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 2:02pm
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Wa Alayki Assalamu Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu, Thank you dear sister Full of Hopes. I appreciate your comments so much. It makes me very pleased to hear this. May Allah reward you immensely and guide as both down the straight path. I'm sorry to read the reply from Martha. I don't know why she likes to insult and make me feel bad about myself. May Allah guide her and cure her. Ameen < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 December 2009 at 5:03pm
Martha, you are right partly. True, people will always be flawed, some more some quiet less. For that, this life is a trial for us, as Allah says. But living under a perfect and uniform law and knowing that your every act is being recorded to be used as evidence against the one who might deny them does have a huge affect on a believer and his intentions and actions. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 26 December 2009 at 6:38am
JihadX, You clearly support the mujahideen, taliban, whatever you like to call them. I do not. What is most difficult for me to understand is that it is entirely acceptable ( to some, thankfully not all muslims) to kill innocents for the sake of Islam, yet muslims condemn the western world for waging war when their wars have nothing to do with religion at all. I will never forget the Beslan seige in Chechnya. HOw sisters can kill hundreds of little children is totally beyond me. In fact I will go as far to say that I removed my hijab after that event. This is NOT the Islam I associate with. It is disgusting behaviour of cowards. Your support of Anwar al awlaki, a cleric kicked out of his US mosque for inciting murder and hatred of the AMericans, proves to me that I do not want to know you, thanks. And you dare ask why I reply in the manner I do!!?? Who are you JihadX? What is your REAL name and where do you live? Why do you hide behind a false persona? I don't need curing of my thoughts and views. I have not been brainwashed along the way. My only thought is that you are perhaps still young and have much to learn. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 26 December 2009 at 8:10am
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I'm sorry to hear this. Of course there are many people who deny them and I've stated the reasons many times. However, there is an ayah in the Quran that talks about liking something that may not be good for you and disliking something that is good for you. Many people dislike jihad fe sabeel Allah. This is very unfortunate. Wow! I can't believe im hearing this. You removed your hijab!!?? This just shows a lack in faith. There is nothing else to say about this. My support of Sheikh anwar al awlaki says that I am muslim brother who loves anyone that is beloved to Allah. Actually, he chose to leave U.S and I don't blame him. Why stay surrounded by all of the kufr?? Anyone with common sense and faith would leave. Emigration in this matter distinguishes eman and kufr. Sheikh anwar al awlaki actually said a lecture on this matter. Subhanallah I don't live behind a false persona. I'm just a young brother who is striving and struggling fe sabeel Allah. I am from the west but I am not excited about saying so. I just ignore it...I don't have a country as of now. I am young and do have much to learn inshallah. I hope you can maybe listen to islamic lectures and stay away from the western kufr and media. < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: Full of Hopes
Date Posted: 27 December 2009 at 5:06am
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Asslamu Alaikm I see that the discussion here was taken FAR away from our topic, which is SAD. But, there is something about jihad, I must say. The Islamic Jihad has nothing to do with killing the childern nor the innocent people. WE need to know more about the Islamic morals and rules of jihad more and more.,,,, ------------- And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2009 at 6:49am
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JihadX,
Well, at least I was right thinking you are young. Perhaps as you mature you will change your views. Whatever. The black widows of the Beslan Seige were not true muslimahs despite wearing the hijab. They had their own personal grievances. THey will not see Jannah for their evil deeds. If you ask why I say that then it is really very obvious. You don't have to be a scholar to understand it. My removing the hijab had nothing to do with lack of faith. You do not know me very well or you would not say this. It is not the wearing of the hijab that makes a person more respectable or more decent than a non-hijab wearing muslimah. BUt the hijab is certainly seen as a symbol of Islamic values....though obviously not in the case of these moronic women. We should all be careful who we listen to and follow as our own future is at stake. I do listen to Islamic lectures, but I doubt they would be the same ones as yours. I guess we should get back to the original topic now before F.O.H's kicks us off 
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: JihadX
Date Posted: 27 December 2009 at 8:09am
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Niqab is more of sunnah for women anyways. Not wearing even hijab is just shameful and immodest. < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- �The knife that slaughtered the guards at Bagram and set us free is now on its way to other places,� _ The Mujahid, The Eminent, Sheikh Abu Yahya Al Libi |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 27 December 2009 at 8:19pm
If only you knew http://culturesocietypraxis.org/index.php/csp/article/viewFile/46/43 - the plight of Chechen women under Russian occupation and http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/01/beslan-putin-politkovskaya-basaev-dzasokhov-chechen-opinions-contributors-david-satter.html - the truth about the Beslan tragedy ....
And BTW...
(27:65) Say: "None in the heavens or on the earth has knowledge of the Unseen save Allah...."
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 December 2009 at 1:58am
Only Allah can judge us Bro. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 December 2009 at 7:12am
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Salaams Martha how can you say:THey will not see Jannah for their evil deeds. If you ask why I say that then it is really very obvious. You don't have to be a scholar to understand it. How do WE know? I ma surprised you would see this? And remember they took hostages and the Russian govt fired on the school. Who exactly killed whom is quite debatable. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2009 at 11:01am
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Walaikum asalam,
We are taught, are we not, that wrongdoers do not get to Jannah? I am just re-enforcing that. I also firmly believe it too with regards to this topic. It is irrelevant who actually killed the children. The muslims went in with the intention of murder, with bombs strapped to their bodies, with feet on detonators. I am aware of the grievances these people had, that the Russians knew about it etc etc, but no one can say the Russians told them to actually go ahead and beseige the school. This is not a case of saying I know what Allah knows. Of course I do not. But black is black, white is white, there is no grey area for this as far as I am concerned. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 December 2009 at 2:13pm
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We are taught, are we not, that wrongdoers do not get to Jannah?
Yes but you are saying YOU know for SURE That THEY all those people are going to hell???? Even if we take your argument.. we don't know. They may have been mentally ill for all we know.. WE DON't know.
I have to say Martha it is unusual to hear from you this . As you know Allah is MOST merciful. You often seem eager to condemn any Muslim you perceive did something wrong. When in fact as Muslims we should do our best to give each other the benefit of the doubt. And without FULL information it is never our place to say anyone is going to hell... this is just as dangerous as many other acts. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: wisdomseeker
Date Posted: 28 December 2009 at 5:16pm
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Assalamu alaikum,
Well..I think we are none to decide who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. I am not saying that what those muslims did was right....but what they did, how they did and why they did is a matter between them and Allah, when it comes to the matters of this world, we may use our sense of judgment and all the available evidences and then arrive at a decision or conclusion about that particular event,.....but when it is about an eternal judgment, that of the last day, of heaven and hell...then we can just not say who goes to heaven and who goes to hell....that is between that person and Allah. We do not know and hence must not arrive at conclusions. Can we tell for sure, if we are going to heaven? No we cannot, if one does, then one blasphemes....coz he is trying to claim knowledge to that, which is with Allah alone. May Allah guide us all surely He guides whom He wills. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 1:17am
Good points !!! Infact reminds me of some ahadith - even Prophet Muhammad used to say about himself, that I shall not go into Jannah except with Allah's mercy ! subhanAllah. Also, just like we should not be saying whether someone is going to hell - I have read that we should not also say that.. "so & so is going to heaven" - bcz that is like saying we have knowledge of the unseen, which only Allah has. Once read a hadith (which was sahih as far as i remember) that once a person died in battle, and the sahaba were saying So & So is definitely going straight to Jannah, he fought so bravely. To which Prophet Muhammad said, how do you know for sure? I was just told that while he was lying in the battlefield, he could'nt stand the pain and killed himself. And suicide is haraam in islam. !!! ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 3:09am
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Walaikum asalam,
wisdomseeker, I hear what you are saying and you have explained it really well. My comment that these people would not see Jannah..I did not say I would decide that. sister Hayfa..yes sure, Allah is most merciful. He is also just. He has to be because if He was not then all of us can excuse ourselves of our bad deeds. Allah can and will forgive who He choses, but for those judged guilty or at fault then there is also a punishment. Maybe I do not explain myself well these days. BUt It is unlikely that all the people involved in the Beslan seige had mental problems as the act was premeditated. BUt I agree that in certain instances people can be mentally unstable and interpret things wrong. So these people we should help if we can. And ALlah will judge them accordingly. Hayfa, you said I often condemn other muslims. No, I am critical of muslims. Many times this is because we should not be so judgemental of non-muslims and should be patient. I have no need to be critical of Christians and we should help them understand about Islam,for those that reject it we can feel sorry for them. BUt it is not wrong to point out errors of our own brothers and sisters. So..it is not a case of condemning. Instead I would see it as helping. If we have Islam then we have fewer excuses to get it wrong. Abraham Lincoln said 'he has a right to criticise who has a heart to help' So I do love my brothers and sisters in Islam. If I did not then I would bother less with my replies here. Of course people matter to me, but Allah is also just and I trust in Him most of all. Perhaps this is why I worded my previous post in that way. Sister Chrysalis...I am grateful to you for your words. BUt I am disturbed when our brothers and sisters in Islam call non-muslims infidels and say they will go to hell. Do we try to correct them? We are no different to anyone in this life no matter what religion we follow. Yet I am corrected here for my comments it seems because I was critical of muslims not christians? It is all complex. The main issue it seems is my own personal view? I guess we don't need to worry ourselves on that. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: wisdomseeker
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 3:55am
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Assalamu alaikum sister Martha,
Deciding on other people's fate, is a far off thing, i meant commenting on someone's eternal fate, perhaps i used the wrong word (decide). Moreover, it is not because you commented on muslims that you are being "corrected" here (that was not what i intended to do, but just politely bring to your notice that you might be just overstepping ) , it is because whether muslim or non muslim we are just not doing the right thing when we comment on someone's fate on the judgment day. As for me, I try staying away from making all kinds of judgmental comments whether they be about muslims or non muslims.
See, what we know for sure, we can at least comment on that, but even this not without caution. Like, we know that a certain non muslim, who is dead, died on a religion other than islam, will go to hell. But a muslim on other hand who believes in Allah, shall go to heaven though may be after suffering his own amount of punishments in the hell for the wrongs he did. But even this we have to say, with caution, for what and how one's heart feels is a secret between that person and Allah, whether he be a muslim or a non muslim. leave commenting on someone's fate aside, we are, according to a hadith not supposed to even praise someone without saying "this is what I feel but Allah knows best." This just goes to show, how much importance is given in Islam to what we speak and how. And Allah knows best. May Allah guide us all surely He guides whom He wills. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 6:41am
I think we do try to correct or reprimand our zealous brothers and sisters - both on and off the forum. You may have noticed that with some other members here already. However, we can only say & do so much - at the end of the day, the other Muslim will do what they strongly believe in. We should however make sure the approach we are taking doesn't drive those people away from us and make them cling all the more to their 'beliefs'. I wonder if people told Omar Al Farooq, the recent attempted Bomber to go and do something about his 'strong feelings' against Americans... rather than cribbing and stop being a coward ? ? ? These are weighty statements that shouldn't be used carelessly on others. Our societies tend to expel & exclude zealots, - which only aggravates their issues because they lose that sense of community/bond/humanity. This makes it all the more easier to commit acts of violence, because you can disassociate yourself with the victims. If they were handled gently and shown concern etc, I am sure it would help reduce the wounds in their hearts by a great deal. So yes, I agree we should try to correct them and help them. Also, I don't know what all the hullabaloo is about using words like 'Kaafir' & 'Infidel'. Christians, Jews & Hindus are welcome to call me a Kafir & Infidel with respect to their beliefs. It just denotes that a person rejects a particular doctrine. It is a synonym for unbeliever/disbeliever. It is in no way a slur. Also, I don't think that people comment on or criticize your opinions because you are critical of muslims - we do that do each other all the time. In fact, I for one appreciate you pointing out what you find to be an issue with the Ummah. You are part of it, hence it is not only your right but your responsibility to do so. Better to clean out our own closet rather than invite someone else to do so. . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 29 December 2009 at 8:54am
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Aslaam ALaikum If we have Islam then we have fewer excuses to get it wrong. The point is IF. When I was last in Pakistan I said to someone that it would have been nice to be born into Islam on a certain level. They said. " Why? look around you most of these people do not even know how to pray." So to assume that they "know" may not be realistic. If we see returning soldiers from war come home, kill themselves, kill others, basically they end up completely mentally messed up why we cannot imagine this does not happen to the civilians faced with the same, often longer, continual violence? In fact based upon the fact that between 80-90% of all homicides are committed by men, for women to reach THIS point.. makes you wonder what is really going on in Chechnya. From everything I've read, its REALLY bad. So it is really quite possible they mentally 'flipped' a switch. We don't know that is why it is dangerous to think we KNOW who will go to hell. I would make a good educated guess that 99% of us on the website have ever experienced what those in Chechnya, the Congo, Palestine, Afghanistan, or North Korea go through. It does not bother me that you call to attention bad actions. My point was saying "they will not see Jannah for their evil deeds." Maybe if it was precursored with " Allah will decide their fate." No problem. But who goes to Jannah is not at all up to us nor do any of us know. That is my point. Guess it gets to me becasue this is what my "Born Again" relatives told my sister right upon my mother's death, she is going to helll for xyz. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |