God in Evangelical Christianity
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Topic: God in Evangelical Christianity
Posted By: Orthodox
Subject: God in Evangelical Christianity
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:06pm
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Instead of laying down the same old Trinity debate that we've had for years, here is some new to consider: The Bible, along with its Christian scholars, teach of a significant difference between the "flesh" and the "spirit". Paul talks about how the sins that we commit are pleasing to the flesh (romans chapter 1). The Bible further elaborates on how God is a spirit, and that true believers, or people who are "born again" recieve the spirit of God and the spirit of God dwells within their very being. Now the million dollar question for Christians is - do they, the Christians, worship the flesh of Jesus Christ or the spirit of God that dwelled within Jesus? The Christians will always talk about their concept known as - Jesus is "God in the flesh". Does this mean that the flesh itself is divine (God), or does it mean that God dwells within the flesh? Obviously the statement says God IN (within) the flesh, not God IS the flesh. Coming back to the clear distinction between the flesh and the spirit which the Bible makes. Also noting the fact that the Bible is VERY clear that God is spirit. At this point. The evangelical Christians will agree, because this fundemental doctine has always been a strict teaching of Christianity - the difference between the flesh and the spirit, and how God is spirit. ALL Christians believe this. Now there is a slight difference between what Roman Catholics teach and what Protestant Evangelicals teach. Roman Catholics believe that EVERYONE who is born into this world is born with the spirit of God dwelling within. Protestant Evangelicals believe that you have to be "born again" to recieve the spirit of God. Either way, the spirit of God dwells within many people - not just Jesus <<. So, if you are not worshiping the flesh of Jesus, and admit that the flesh of Jesus is a creation of God, while the spirit of God is eternal, then you admit, that the man (physical man known as Jesus, who walked the earth 2000 years ago, ate, slept , drank, and spent 9 months in Marys womb) is not what you worship, and was not literally God, but it was the spirit of God that dwelled within that flesh - man - created material, and its that spirit which you worship as your God. Correct? Obviously! So now we have taken an important step. You now know, that the Bible teaches you, that you are not worshiping the phyiscal man - or the graven image, known as Jesus, rather you are worshiping God, who is a spirit, that same spirit of God that dwells within you, and within ALL: One God is Father of ALL, who is above ALL, and through ALL, and in ALL. (Esphians 4:6; also see many more verses which say the same thing: John 17:20; John 14:20; Psalms 82:6) You also must know that you do not worship words or labels: ie. YHWH, Jehovah, Jesus, Yeshua, God ..... the words are just words - you actually worship a spirit who is called by these words in human language .... people often forget this, so I felt the need to say it, in order to distinguish what exactly Christians are intending to worship, because it seems as they don't even know ..... I believe that Christians unintentionally worship the flesh of Jesus Christ, when they are not supposed too. I challenge Christians on this fact. Finally, one thing to consider after considering all of the above is: When God's spirit dwelled within Jesus, and Jesus was God in the flesh, did God become limited to the flesh of Jesus Christ, or was God still omnipresent (did His spiritual presence still exist everywhere)? If He, God, was still omnipresent, then you can see for yourself from a different persepective how Jesus, ie. the man, was not God. Remember, Jesus is the label/name for the man. YHWH is the name or attribute of God, the spirit. (100% God, 100% Man). I think you have understood, that my point is, that if God's spirit dwells within many, than how is that different from the man known as Jesus? Also, after understanding all of this, can you finally understand how the Father is greater than I (Jesus)? Because the Father, who is the all-powerful omnipresent God, the only one who knows the hour, and in heaven Jesus sits on His RIGHT HAND (notice Jesus does not take the thrown, but sits on the right hand of God); clearly, while spiritually Jesus and God are one, physically they are distinct. We are all spiritually one with God. We all have the spirit of God within us. But yet, we are His creation, and distinct physically from Him. Hope you learned something new. Until next time, yours truly, Orthodox. |
Replies:
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:31pm
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Wonderfull! My dear brother Orthodox, this is indeed a new perspective never had time to read about it before. Hoping to have some good discussion on this perspective. Starting it on that note, obviously through some questions to more clarify your point of view; Can you ellaborate on your following question than merely stating it for others to figure it out as to how? "that if God's spirit dwells within many, than how is that different from the man known as Jesus?" I don't know about others, but rest assure that I as dumb as you can imagine to understand your philosphy in explaining this question. I hope you would apologize my weakness and explain it by coming down to my level. On the same token, when you say; "while spiritually Jesus and God are one, physically they are distinct. We are all spiritually one with God. We all have the spirit of God within us. But yet, we are His creation, and distinct physically from Him. " and explain as how Jesus is different than us.
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Posted By: Orthodox
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 1:43pm
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as-salaamu alaykum AhmadJoiya, First off, you must understand, that all Christians claim to worship the uncreated God, after all its what the Bible teaches. However, whether the Christian Church actually worships the uncreated God is altogether another issue. When I refer to the Christian Church, it really does not matter what denomination .... we'll exclude JWs from the idea of "Christian Church" ....
According to the Bible, and its scholars, GOD is spirit. This spirit who is the creator, originator, and sustainer of all existance, dwells within the people who are "born again" (according to Christianity; and according to the Roman Catholic Church: God's spirit exists within all people born into this world); Now what do we mean by God's spirit exists within people or dwells within people, or that a person has recieved the "holy" spirit? In Islamic terms, the person has recieved the "ilm" or knowledge of truth - and this absolute knowledge has brought this person into a totally different spiritual state. A spiritual state of knowledge and understanding that he or she might not have had prior to "recieving the spirit of God" .... Catholics say that all of mankind understands within his inner-conscious that God exists, but fails to acknowledge it due to arrogence; therefore the spirit of God is present, but the person refuses to acknowledge it (the carnal state of mind). Anyhow, when we define "spirit", we automatically know that such an entity lacks material, however a "spirit" is not to be thought of as a "ghost" or "ghost-like" entity. This is entirely a fictional understanding. The spiritual existance is far more deeper, and its quite difficult to explain with language. If anyone else can explain what a spirit or spiritual entity is, please go right ahead .... Now my point is, that Christians believe that the spirit of God dwells within many or all, depending on denomination. My point is, that if Jesus the man was a creation of God, and the side of him that was man-created-physical-material (100% Man) was in fact no different than you and I. The spirit of God which dwelled within Jesus, ie. God, is the same God and spirit that dwells within many or all, than that would mean that we, ie. people, and Jesus, are no different than each other. The only exception being, that Jesus was more spiritual - or had superior "ilm" (knowledge) in regards to the spiritual God that dwelled with him, while we, the people, have not totally grasped (or as well as Jesus did) the appreciation of that spiritual God that dwells within us ... Let me try an explain this one more time: Jesus, the man was just like us, because we, just like Jesus tha man, are men (human-created-material-flesh); His flesh was not superior to our flesh, because flesh is insignificant and dies ..... The spirit of God that dwelled within him (God), is the same spirit that dwells within us, as people. There is only one God, and His status is no different when dwelling within one flesh to the other. ie. Now, I explained all of this in Biblical or Christian terms ..... In Muslim terms, its explained quite differently, because we as Muslims, have a totally different understanding of God being "omnipresent" ..... ie. we believe that God is spirit, and His knowledge, Sight etc. is everywhere, but we don't believe that God physically exists and dwells within places or people. That is why we need to understand the definition of spirit, and how God does indeed bless people "spiritually" - but not physically .... I think there exists a small confusion between the existance of God and the dwelling of God "omnipresently" - as far as that is a physical existance or a spiritual existance. We Muslims believe its entirely spiritual and that God is "above the throne" .... |
"that if God's spirit dwells within many, than how is that different from the man known as Jesus?" I don't know about others, but rest assure that I as dumb as you can imagine to understand your philosphy in explaining this question. I hope you would apologize my weakness and explain it by coming down to my level.Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 1:47pm
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Try starting from this point, AhmadJoyia.
Everything man does (past, present and future) to try to submit to the will of God is Jesus. Everything God does for man is God the Father. Cast off the intellectual training wheels of seeing God as a personality. The difference is only one of viewpoint. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 3:28pm
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Very well explained bro Orthodox when you say "that Jesus was more spiritual" means had more close affinity to "The Spirit" the God. Similarly, I do appreciate Bro DavidC bringing it from another angle where "Everything man does (past, present and future) to try to submit to the will of God is Jesus." I think, both are now comprehensibly linked as; since Jesus was more spiritual than any others, therefore, everything Jesus did was to submit to the will of God. (ASV) Mt 6: javascript VClk'Mt 6:9' - 9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Similarly, here is another interesting Quote from Mt 7:21 "21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." |
Posted By: Orthodox
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 9:29am
| DavidC, are you Christian? If So, I would love to know your viewpoint in regards to the distinction between the flesh and the spirit, and what the Christians intend to worship ... |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 10:14am
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Yes, I am a Christian. Christians believe Jesus was at the intersection of
flesh and spirit. Not one or the other, but both simultaneously. Some Christians, perhaps most Christians, do have a more literal understanding. There may be no logical resolution, but they also believe there is one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. Spiritual and physical existence are not an either/or situation. We are all both, and it is not unreasonable to God can create a unique blend and that it existed as Jesus Christ. After all, God can do anything. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 7:02pm
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Greetings Orthodox, I�d like to comment on this�
The deity of Jesus and God are completely interchangeable. Let�s review a few examples as clarification for you, and others. WRATH WORD OF GOD And having been clothed in a garment which had been dipped in blood. And His name is called The Word of God. ( And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)
Pay special attention to this one: THRONE
Now, that you are cognizant of the complete deity interchangeability between God and Jesus in the Holy Bible; we can proceed to observe the complete deity interchangeability between Jesus and the god �allah� of the Koran. For brevity, only examples from sura 2 & sura 16 have been compared to the book of Revelation. This should also give you a greater appreciation for the Biblical Book of Revelation�which is the Archetype of the Koran� Jesus is God�
From these examples we can conclude a couple of things:
Thanks for your time� |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 9:13pm
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Apple Pie, your conclusions are unsupported.
A. You state the Qu'ran is holy in the first statement, then deny it in the third. B. The sharing of "diety attrubutes" is meaningless; Jesus shares "diety attributes" with many pre-Christian dieties. C. Wholesale supposition and unfounded accusation. I can, however, agree with your general claim that Christianity and Islam share a common spiritual heritage. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: uncszs
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 9:37pm
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Hi, I'm posting this to urge all to get the RIGHT translations and RIGHT context prior to quoting anything; be it from the Bible or the Quran. Just an example, quoting your post : Jesus knows the hour�.allah knows the hour The right translation of the Holy Quran, 16:77 is : To Allah belongeth the Unseen of the heavens and the earth. And the matter of the Hour (of Judgment) is as the twinkling of an eye, or even quicker: for Allah hath power over all things. There is no mention here that Jesus knows the Hour. Apple Pie, Where did you get your Quranic translations ?
------------- Sharifah |
Posted By: Arabian
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 1:05am
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uncszs, Apple did not say that the Qur'an mentions Jesus as Allah, he is only stating the the Bible and the Qur'an are similar in the aspects of their God/gods. What I do find interesting is how Apple Pie will capitalize the name of Jesus but openly refuses to do the same for Allah. ------------- �...the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?� (The Quran, 21:30) |
Posted By: uncszs
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 1:34am
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Arabian, Thanks for pointing this out. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 8:20am
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Dear All, Another point, beside being wrong on each of his similarity between God and Jesus, if someone might have noticed it is that St. Apple Pie has picked up just one book from whole of the Bible, and from this Bible, he selected the 2nd half of the Bible i.e. the NT, and from within NT, the very last book "Revelation" that too, of dubious authorship. Is this a scholarly comparison, the decision I shall leave it to you, after looking at as what various Christian scholars themselves say about this book of NT. Here are few of them with references duly provided after each of them. "This conclusion of criticism, completing as it does the work of Dionysius the Greak of Alexandria, is one of tremendous importance. Before his time, from 135 A.D. onward (see p. xxxix sq.), Church writers began uncritically to assign Jap to the Apostle John. This false conception led necessarily to intolerable confusion. No matter how valid the evidence might be for the martyrdom of this Apostle before 70 A.D., it could only be regarded as purely legendary, seeing that according to the most current view John the Apostle wrote the Apocalypse and wrote it in Domitian's reign. If the Apostle were living about 95 A.D. he could not, of course, have been martyred before 70 A.D. This misconception has therefore vitiated the evidence of most Early Church writers on this question, http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revelation/intro-II.htm#11 - (11) and has proved an ignis fatuus to many distinguished scholars of our own day. Hence it is not astonishing that so little evidence of the Apostle John's early martyrdom -- and yet, cumulatively considered, it is not little -- should have survived, but it is astonishing in the extreme that any evidence of any sort as to John's early martyrdom has survived at all, seeing that all but universal beliefs of the Church from the earliest ages worked for its absolute deletion from the pages of history. Reference:A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John by R. H. Charles Kindly note that "Jap the Apocalypse" is what commonly known as "Book of Revelation". Similarly Norman Perrin makes the following comments (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 81-2): "That John of Patmos can be identified as a prophet is more important to understanding his work than identifying him with some other individual named John in the New Testament. Traditionally it has been claimed that he is the John, son of Zebedee, known to us from the gospel stories, but this is most unlikely. It has also been claimed that he is the "John" of the fourth gospel, but the difference in language and style alone makes this identification quite impossible" Secondly, though bro Apple Pie has referred Rev 5:8 to show "lamb" as same as "Jesus", but have you ever read as who is this "lamb"? Just read Rev 5:6 on ward to Rev 5:8, "6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb." Obviously either this "Lamb" can't be Jesus or Jesus is what the description shows in this passage. Since, I can't imagine Jesus being Lamb, So, very interesting to ask St. Apple Pie, as why he missed the earlier part of this passage? Is he not deceit in his appraoch? Hence my brothers, if anything true that can be said about this book of dubious authorship is to know that Revelation must be understood imaginatively rather than with wooden literalism. |
Posted By: copenhagen
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 6:18pm
Is AP still around? Last night I watched a movie called "A Few Good Men". for those who haven't seen it, a few quick points of note: Galloway: Why do you hate them so much? Lt. Weinberg: They beat up on a weakling, and that's all they did. The rest is just smokefilled coffee-house cr*p. and Downey: What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong. Dawson: Yeah, we did. We were supposed to fight for the people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie. I see a person, misdirected as I may think he is, and as poor as I think his methods are, I think he is honestly trying to grasp the rather BIG concept of God. It ain't easy, people. I think 1400 years ago, there was this guy named Muhammad (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam), and he wrestled with the same issues. One may quickly say, "Oh, but Muhammad was right" I'm saying, have some sympathy or at least pity. If you are 100% certain you are right, I don't think it is fitting to resort to calling him "Saint" and otherwise being sarcastic et al. Unless, of course... Peace, Sam ------------- Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 6:44pm
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Greetings uncszs, Thanks for your comments� I'm posting this to urge all to get the RIGHT translations and RIGHT context prior to quoting anything; be it from the Bible or the Quran. Just an example, quoting your post : Jesus knows the hour�.allah knows the hour The right translation of the Holy Quran, 16:77 is : To Allah belongeth the Unseen of the heavens and the earth. And the matter of the Hour (of Judgment) is as the twinkling of an eye, or even quicker: for Allah hath power over all things. There is no mention here that Jesus knows the Hour. Let�s look� Koranic Eschatology When will it happen� Hour, Koran: (6:31, 6:40, 7:187, 12:107, 15:85, 16:77, 18:21, 18:36, 19:75, 20:15, 21:49, 22:1, 22:6, 22:55, 25:11, 30:12, 30:14, 30:55, 31:34, 32:63, 34:3, 40:46, 40:59, 41:47, 41:50, 42:17-18, 43:61, 43:66, 43:85, 45:27, 45:32, 47:18, 54:1, 54:46, 79:42) Hour, Book of Revelation: (3:3, 3:10, 9:15, 11:13, 14:7, 14:15, 17:12, 18:10, 18:17, 18:19) Hour, Koran Those who denied had lost with Allah's meeting until when the Hour/Resurrection came to them suddenly, they said: "Oh, our grief/sorrow on what we neglected/wasted in it." And they are carrying their sins on their backs, is it not evil/harmful what they carry/bear? ( Say: "Did I show you/make you understand, if Allah's torture came to you, or the Hour/Resurrection came to you, is (it) other than Allah you call, if you are/were truthful?" ( They ask/question you about the Hour/Resurrection, when (is) its anchor/landing, say: "But its knowledge (is) at my Lord, not (no one) uncovers/reveals it to its time except He, (it) became heavy in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, (it) does not come to you except suddenly/unexpectantly." They ask/question you, as (though) you (are) well acquainted/asking persistently (knowledgeable) about it, say: "But its knowledge (is) at Allah, and but most of the people do not know." (7:187) Did they become safe that (a) cover/disaster from Allah's torture comes to them, or the Hour/Resurrection comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly and (while) they do not feel/know/sense? (12:107) And We did not create the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth and what (is) between them except with the truth, and that truly the Hour/Resurrection is coming so forgive/pardon the forgiveness/pardon, the beautiful/graceful. (15:85) And to Allah (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's unseen/invisible ; and the Hour's/Resurrection's order/command/matter/affair is not except as the eye sights'/knowledges' twinkling/quick glance or it is nearer/closer, that Allah (is) on every thing capable/able. (16:77) And as/like that We made be stumbled upon on them (We made them be stumbled upon) to know that Allah's promise (is) truth, and that the Hour/Resurrection (there is) no doubt/suspicion in it, when they dispute/argue their matter/affair between them, so they said: "Build/construct on them a building/structure, their Lord (is) more knowledgeable with (of) them." Those who defeated/overcame on their matter/affair said: "We will take on them a mosque/place of worshipping Allah." ( "And I do not think/suppose (that) the Hour/Resurrection (is) starting, and if I returned to my Lord I will find better than it a place of return." ( Say: "Who was in the misguidance, so the merciful will extend/spread for him extension/spreading until when they saw/understood what they are being promised, either the torture, and either the Hour/Resurrection, so they will know who he is worst (in) a place/position, and weaker soldiers/warriors." (19:75) "That the Hour/Resurrection is coming, I am about to/almost, I hide it, (so) each self (is) to be rewarded/reimbursed because (of) what it strives/endeavors. ( Those who fear their Lord with the unseen and they are from the Hour/Resurrection they are afraid/guarding. ( You, you the people, fear and obey your Lord, that the Hour's/Resurrection's shaking/rumbling/moving (is) a great thing. (22:1) And that the Hour/Resurrection is coming no doubt/suspicion in it, and that Allah sends/resurrects who (is) in the graves/burial places. (22:7) And those who disbelieved remain/continue in doubt from it until the Hour/Resurrection comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly, or a day/time of no good strong/infertile torture comes to them. ( But they denied with the Hour/Resurrection, and We prepared to who denied with the Hour/Resurrection blazing/inflaming (fire). (25:11) And a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts the criminals/sinners become confused/dumbfounded. (30:12) On the Day that the Hour will be established, - that Day shall (all men) be sorted out. (30:14) And a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts the criminals/sinners swear/make oath (that) they did stay/remain except an hour, as/like that, they were being lied to/turned away. (30:55) That truly Allah at him (is) the Hour's/Resurrection's knowledge, and He descends the rain, and He knows what (is) in the wombs/uteruses, and no self knows what it earns/acquires tomorrow (in the) future, and no self knows with/at which land/ground/Earth it dies, that truly Allah (is) knowledgeable, expert/experienced. (31:34) The people ask/question you about the Hour/Resurrection, say: "Truly its knowledge (is) at Allah, and what informs you maybe/perhaps the Hour/Resurrection be near/close." (32:63) And those who disbelieved said: "The Hour/Resurrection does not come to us," Say: "Yes/ certainly, and (by) my Lord it comes to you, knower (of) the unseen/absent, a weight (of) a smallest particle of anything in the universe does not be far, hidden and distant from Him in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth and nor smaller/littler than that, and nor greater except in a clear/evident Book." (34:3) The fire they are being displayed/exhibited on (to) it, (at) early morning and (at) evening/first darkness, and a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts Pharaoh's family enter (in) the torture's strongest. (40:46) That truly the Hour/Resurrection is coming no doubt/suspicion in it, and but most of the people do not believe. (40:59) To Him the Hour's/Resurrection's knowledge be returned, and none emerges from fruits from its buds/covers from which they emerge, and none from a female conceives/(is) pregnant with/carries, and nor gives birth/drops except with His knowledge, and a day/time He calls them: "Where (are) my partners?" They said: "We took your leave, we informed you, none from an honest witness/testifier is from us." (41:47) And if We made him taste/experience mercy from Us, from after calamity/disastrous distress touched him, he will say: "That (is) for me, and I do not think/assume the Hour/Resurrection (is) starting, and if I was returned to my Lord, that truly for me at Him (is) the best/most beautiful/goodness." So We will inform those who disbelieved with what they made/did, and We will make them taste/experience from a strong/rough torture. (41:50) Allah (is) who descended The Book with the truth, and the scale/measuring instrument, and what makes you know/informs you, maybe/perhaps the Hour/Resurrection (is) near/close. Those who do not believe with (in) it hasten/urge with it, and those who believed (are) afraid/cautious from it, and they know that it (is) the truth, is (it) not that truly those who argue/discuss in the Hour/Resurrection (are) in far/distant misguidance? (42:17-18) And that he/it truly is knowledge to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue with it, and follow Me, that (is a) straight/direct road/way. (43:61) Do they look/watch/wonder about except that the Hour/Resurrection comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly and they do not feel/know/sense? (43:66) And blessed who for Him (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's and what (is) between them ownership/kingdom, and at Him (is) the Hour's/Resurrection's knowledge, and to Him you are being returned. (43:85) And to Allah (are) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's ownership/possession, and a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts, that day, the wasters/annulers loose. (45:27) And if (it) was said: "That truly Allah's promise (is) truth, and the Hour/Resurrection (there is) no doubt/suspicion in it." You said: "We do not know what (is) the Hour/Resurrection, that we assume/suppose except thought/assumption, and we (are) not with being sure/certain." (45:32) So do they wait/watch except (for) the Hour/Resurrection that it comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly, so its signs/indications had come, so how (is it) for them if/when their reminder/remembrance came to them? (47:18) The Hour/Resurrection neared/approached, and the moon split/cracked/cut open. (54:1) But the Hour/Resurrection (is) their appointment, and the Hour/Resurrection (is) more disastrous/catastrophic and more bitter/firmer. (54:46) They ask/question you about the Hour/Resurrection when (is) its LANDING? (79:42) Hour, Book of Revelation Then remember how you received and heard, and keep, and repent. If, then, you do not watch, I will come upon you like a thief and you will not at all know what hour I come upon you. (Rev 3:3) Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is going to come on all the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth. ( And the four angels were released, those having been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, that they should kill the third part of men. ( And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth part of the city fell. And there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand names of men. And the rest became terrified, and gave glory to the God of Heaven. ( Saying in a great voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him, because the hour of His judgment has come; also, Worship "Him who has made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea," and the springs of waters. Ex. And another angel went forth out of the temple, crying in a great voice to the One sitting on the cloud, Send Your sickle and reap, because Your hour to reap came, because the harvest of the earth was dried. ( And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. ( Standing from afar because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, For in one hour such great wealth was desolated. And every ship-pilot and all company on the ships, and sailors, and as many as work the sea, stood from afar, ( And they threw dust on their heads, and cried out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, by which all those having ships in the sea were rich, from her costliness, because in one hour she was ruined. ( Summary: 1) Will the Hour be unexpected?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 2) Who knows the Hour?...Revelation, Jesus�Koran, Allah 3) Allah has aligned his �deity� with that of Jesus 4) The Koran is stating that Jesus is God Does this adequately answer your query�.? Apple Pie, Where did you get your Quranic translations ? As a baseline starting point, it is best to use this rendering: The Koran, Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation, Mohamed Ahmed Aside from self-study, this is (by far) the most accurate English rendering available today�.and it is completely free� As far as cracking the real internals of the Koran, it is an absolute must that you obtain Lane�s Lexicon, as this is the reference gold standard to unlocking the true meanings of the classic Arabic of the Koran. Don�t leave home without it�.. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 7:06pm
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Greetings AhmadJoyia, Thanks for your reply� Another point, beside being wrong on each of his similarity between God and Jesus, if someone might have noticed it is that St. Apple Pie has picked up just one book from whole of the Bible, and from this Bible, he selected the 2nd half of the Bible i.e. the NT, and from within NT, the very last book "Revelation" that too, of dubious authorship. Is this a scholarly comparison, the decision I shall leave it to you, after looking at as what various Christian scholars themselves say about this book of NT. Here are few of them with references duly provided after each of them. Firstly�thanks for not refuting any of the comparisons of the Deity of Jesus with that of �allah�. Secondly, the sole usage of the Book of Revelation in these comparisons demonstrates, beyond any reasonable doubt, the significant contribution that the Book of Revelation has indeed had in the construction of the Koranic opus� It is a slam-dunk�just from one Book of the Holy Bible� Similarly Norman Perrin makes the following comments (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 81-2): "That John of Patmos can be identified as a prophet is more important to understanding his work than identifying him with some other individual named John in the New Testament. Traditionally it has been claimed that he is the John, son of Zebedee, known to us from the gospel stories, but this is most unlikely. It has also been claimed that he is the "John" of the fourth gospel, but the difference in language and style alone makes this identification quite impossible" It is most amusing that Modern Muslims can give absolutely no credit to the Book of Revelation�.when it contains and defines these Koranic themes:
On�.and on�.and on�. Secondly, though bro Apple Pie has referred Rev 5:8 to show "lamb" as same as "Jesus", but have you ever read as who is this "lamb"? Just read Rev 5:6 on ward to Rev 5:8, "6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb." Obviously either this "Lamb" can't be Jesus or Jesus is what the description shows in this passage. Since, I can't imagine Jesus being Lamb, So, very interesting to ask St. Apple Pie, as why he missed the earlier part of this passage? Is he not deceit in his appraoch? It is rather obvious who the Lamb is�.by the scores of attributes that are given to Him in the Book of Revelation� Besides�.John tells us quite clearly that Jesus is the Lamb� Joh Joh The Lamb is also mentioned by the authors of the Koran. Hence my brothers, if anything true that can be said about this book of dubious authorship is to know that Revelation must be understood imaginatively rather than with wooden literalism. The authors of the Koran had no issue with its material�..why should you�.? Take care� |
Posted By: copenhagen
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 9:27pm
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dupe post -- too quick with the mouse click. Oops. ------------- Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith. |
Posted By: copenhagen
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 9:28pm
Nope, sorry, you have quoted a lot of verses, and said lots of words, but the connection that JESUS = GOD is still wide open. I fail to see even the begining that would make one believe that Jesus thought himself God. This is a HUGE problem. For a man to equate himself with God, while not equating all humans with God is paradox extreme. Are you sure you are willing and fit to take the challenge? It's been fought over for centuries, amoungst the best of minds. Are you saying you are the smartest person who has ever walked the face of earth who can solve this riddle once and for all? I ALWAYS assume that the person speaking to me is smarter than myself. But, when one claims to be smarter than every human on the face of the earth for the past 2,000 years, I have to question the claim. So, Apple Pie, are you the ONE who will forever give clarity to this issue? Will you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus is the cornerstone of Faith, and that Jesus is in FACT God almighty? Just want to clarify your position. As I said, I assume you are smarter than me, so I want to know where you are taking this thread. So far, you have failed miserabley, so I just thought I should point that out. Peace, Sam ------------- Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith. |
Posted By: Orthodox
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 10:31am
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Apple Pie, you have failed to acknowledge the difference between flesh and spirit ..... Jesus, the son of Mary, the son of man, was flesh, created, material, ... God is spirit, eternal, uncreated, without-material ..... Now when you refer to Jesus, are you referring to the MAN that walked the earth, ate, slept, drank, and spent 9 months in Mary's womb, and 33 years through the growth cycle of infancy-childhood-adolescance-adulthood; or are you referring to the spirit, God, who is never called Jesus, but is called YHWH, Jehovah, Elohim, Adonai, Alaha? You quote all of those verses trying to equate Jesus and God, yet don't even try to explain who and what Jesus was, and how he was what you claim he was ..... he was nothing but material-flesh-man created by God. Jesus had God, a spirit dwell with him and within him, no different than you and I ..... once you put this within the context of all of the things you quoted, than you can clearly see how Jesus is not God, because God is not a physical-man nor is God created. Nor is God flesh. So my challenge to you is to put into context what I have said regarding the difference between flesh and spirit, and put it into context with all of that which you have quoted. For example:
Remember, Jesus and God are spiritually one, and their agenda is one, and their message is one, and God dwells with and within Jesus spiritually, however, physically they are not one and the same, because God is not a physical entity, nor is God flesh; there is still that aspect of Jesus which is fleshly-carnal (ie. being tempted by satan, asking God to take the cup away from him, why have you forsaken me etc. -- according to Christian doctines) ....
Apple Pie, its been years, how are you? Remember when we had that long debate a couple of years ago, on a totally different website, and in that thread you posted about how the Quran plagerized from the Book of Revelation, and you kept posting the similarities? And then I started posting in that same thread how the authors of the NT copied and plagerized from the Torah and the Tanach, posting word for word copies, literally word for word, and also basically the same essence in message copying too ....
I also have wrath ....
Absolutly wrong, unless you admit that the Bible contradicts itself because according to the following verse, the son does not know the hour:
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angles which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark
There is a huge difference between the Christian doctrine of Jesus being the resurrection and Allah doing the resurrection, ie. resurrecting those who have died; on the day of Qiyamah ....
What a great proof to show Jesus is God? Orthodox also abhors idols ...
I am also patient.
The verses you quoted above do not at all promote the idea "repent to Jesus" .....
The verse you quoted above do not promote the idea : "Jesus knows your deeds"
Jesus was flesh, God is spirit. You fail to revere and worship the spirit. You worship a man. You worship a creation of God. You worship the flesh of Jesus.
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Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 7:30pm
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Greetings Orthodox, Thanks for your reply� Apple Pie, its been years, how are you? Remember when we had that long debate a couple of years ago, on a totally different website, and in that thread you posted about how the Quran plagerized from the Book of Revelation, and you kept posting the similarities? And then I started posting in that same thread how the authors of the NT copied and plagerized from the Torah and the Tanach, posting word for word copies, literally word for word, and also basically the same essence in message copying too .... Show us the links�. Apple Pie, you have failed to acknowledge the difference between flesh and spirit ..... Jesus, the son of Mary, the son of man, was flesh, created, material, ... God is spirit, eternal, uncreated, without-material ..... Jesus was not created. This is validated in both the Holy Bible and then later copied into the Koran� Now when you refer to Jesus, are you referring to the MAN that walked the earth, ate, slept, drank, and spent 9 months in Mary's womb, and 33 years through the growth cycle of infancy-childhood-adolescance-adulthood; or are you referring to the spirit, God, who is never called Jesus, but is called YHWH, Jehovah, Elohim, Adonai, Alaha? Jesus is the physical manifestation of God. Jesus is God in the flesh. You quote all of those verses trying to equate Jesus and God, yet don't even try to explain who and what Jesus was, and how he was what you claim he was ..... he was nothing but material-flesh-man created by God. Jesus had God, a spirit dwell with him and within him, no different than you and I ..... once you put this within the context of all of the things you quoted, than you can clearly see how Jesus is not God, because God is not a physical-man nor is God created. Nor is God flesh. You need to read your book of faith. The �conception� of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, is the same in both the Holy Bible and in the Koran�as defined by the Book of Luke�thus, He was not �created� as normal humans are. Jesus is God . Period. This is clearly stated in both the Holy Bible and in your book of faith. Its time to stop following Islam and to start following your book of faith. So my challenge to you is to put into context what I have said regarding the difference between flesh and spirit, and put it into context with all of that which you have quoted. For example:
Remember, Jesus and God are spiritually one, and their agenda is one, and their message is one, and God dwells with and within Jesus spiritually, however, physically they are not one and the same, because God is not a physical entity, nor is God flesh; there is still that aspect of Jesus which is fleshly-carnal (ie. being tempted by satan, asking God to take the cup away from him, why have you forsaken me etc. -- according to Christian doctines) .... Perhaps these scriptures will shed some light � Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus, Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross. Phi 2:9 Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name, Phi Phi
I also have wrath .... Do you have God�s wrath�?
Absolutly wrong, unless you admit that the Bible contradicts itself because according to the following verse, the son does not know the hour: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angles which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark Please tell us the vantage point of Jesus in Mark, verses the vantage point of Jesus in Revelation�
There is a huge difference between the Christian doctrine of Jesus being the resurrection and Allah doing the resurrection, ie. resurrecting those who have died; on the day of Qiyamah .... The difference being that the authors of the Koran attempted to pin this deity attribute upon their �god� allah�
What a great proof to show Jesus is God? Orthodox also abhors idols ... A proof none the less�
I am also patient. You think that you have the �patience� called-out for in the scriptures�.?
The verses you quoted above do not at all promote the idea "repent to Jesus" ..... Yes�.they do�
The verse you quoted above do not promote the idea : "Jesus knows your deeds" Yes�it does� Opps�what happened to the other comparisons�.like� Jesus hands out the reward in Heaven�.allah hands out the reward in Heaven Glory be to Jesus�glory be to allah
Jesus Predestines�allah predestines Looks like the cat has your tongue on these�..as it should� Oh�.and thanks for not mentioning Jesus residing on the Throne�
Jesus was flesh, God is spirit. You fail to revere and worship the spirit. You worship a man. You worship a creation of God. You worship the flesh of Jesus. You keep forgetting to mention that Jesus is God in the flesh. This is told to us not only in the Holy Bible but also copied into the Koran as well� The God of the Holy Bible has revealed Himself as a Triune entity. This is told to us not only in the Holy Bible but also copied into the Koran as well� Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your �position� while you still can�. Take care� |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 10:53am
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I think, St. Apple Pie doesn't know even the basics. The final day of judgement is totally different than the day of coming back of Jesus and St. Apple Pie has not distinguished between the two and hence his comparison is totally flawed. Just for an example, though beside being of dubious authorship of Book of Revelation, St. Apple Pie has quoted Rev 3:3 to indicate as the final day of Judgement, but is it really that what St. Apple Pie thinks it is. Let us review this Rev 3:3 "3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you." Any sane person can read the the underline sentence to understand that, if (a big if, but we shall talk about it later) it is true as what is written in this verse about Jesus, then all it is saying is about the future coming of Jesus and not the final day of Judgement. Hence the comparison is totally flawed. On the more, let see where else in the NT, it is mentioned about the second coming of Jesus and shall compare it with this verse. Mt 24:43-44 "43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Beside observing the similarity of the parable of "theif" in the two, note that it is the coming back of "son of man". Hence it is totally different than the last day of Judgement. Another example: "1 Thessalonians 51Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." Here, again it is the coming back of Jesus and not the day of Judgement. Hence, from all these examples, it is now clear as how St. Apple Pie is miserably mistaken about the very basics of his own religion. But the question is, Is he really that innocent? |
Posted By: amlhabibi2000
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 12:57pm
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Jesus does not have to come back he is here already..... ------------- Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8 |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 2:29pm
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Greetings AhmadJoyia, Thanks for adding your comments� I think, St. Apple Pie doesn't know even the basics. Operative word�..�think�� The final day of judgement is totally different than the day of coming back of Jesus and St. Apple Pie has not distinguished between the two and hence his comparison is totally flawed. We would like to see you bring forth Koranic eschatological material for direct comparison to the Book of Revelation. This should settle things rather quickly� Just for an example, though beside being of dubious authorship of Book of Revelation, St. Apple Pie has quoted Rev 3:3 to indicate as the final day of Judgement, but is it really that what St. Apple Pie thinks it is. Let us review this Rev 3:3 "3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you." Any sane person can read the the underline sentence to understand that, if (a big if, but we shall talk about it later) it is true as what is written in this verse about Jesus, then all it is saying is about the future coming of Jesus and not the final day of Judgement. Hence the comparison is totally flawed. Jesus is speaking in Rev 3.3� On the more, let see where else in the NT, it is mentioned about the second coming of Jesus and shall compare it with this verse. Mt 24:43-44 "43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Beside observing the similarity of the parable of "theif" in the two, note that it is the coming back of "son of man". Hence it is totally different than the last day of Judgement. Another example: "1 Thessalonians 5
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." Here, again it is the coming back of Jesus and not the day of Judgement. Hence, from all these examples, it is now clear as how St. Apple Pie is miserably mistaken about the very basics of his own religion. But the question is, Is he really that innocent? Please explain (with your own scriptures)�.how this would be the case� Thanks� |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 4:35pm
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God's Peace and Blessings, Apple Pie if I may what is the purpose of your comment (both past and present) and what do you plan on doing here on Islamicity? This is a most sincere question |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 5:03pm
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Greetings Israfil, Thanks for your question� Apple Pie if I may what is the purpose of your comment (both past and present) and what do you plan on doing here on Islamicity? This is a most sincere question We are here for discourse. To challenge and learn from each other�and demonstrate the truth through scripture� Thanks� |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 5:22pm
| Who is "We"? |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 7:10am
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Dear St. Apple Pie, I appreciate your candid acceptance of my rebuttal by not defending your own claim. |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 6:26pm
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It is most amusing that Modern Muslims can give absolutely no credit to the Book of Revelation�.when it contains and defines these Koranic themes:
On�.and on�.and on�. |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 7:38pm
Where does the Quran speak of this? |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 7:58pm
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Here... Koranic Eschatology What will happen� Babylon the Great, Koran: (7:2-6, 15:3-15, 16:112-113, 17:16, 17:58, 21:10-15, 21:95-102, 22:45-48, 25:40-43, 26:202-208, 28:58-61, 34:33-35, 36:13-20, 43:21-23, 65:8-11) A Book was descended to you so no tightness/strain be in your chest (innermost) from it, to warn/give notice with it and a remembrance/reminder to the believers. Follow what was descended to you from your Lord, and do not follow from other than Him guardians, little (is) what you remember/glorify. And how many from a village/urban city We destroyed it, so Our might/power came to it suddenly at night/overnight, or (while) they are saying/relaxing at Leave them eat and they live long/enjoy, and the hope distracts/preoccupies them, so they will/shall know. And We did not destroy from a village/urban city, except and for it (is) a known Book. None from a nation precedes its term/time, and they do not delay (it). And they said: "You, you who the reminder/remembrance was descended on him, that you are mad/insane." "If you (could) come to us with the angels, if you were from truthful! (expression of wonderment)." We do not descend the angels except with the truth, and they (the disbelievers) were not then delayed/waited. That We, We descended the reminder/remembrance, and that We (are) for it, protectors/guards. And We had descended from before you in the first's/beginner's groups/parties. And none from a messenger comes to them, except they were with him mocking/making fun. As/like that We enter/insert it in the criminals'/sinners' hearts/minds. They do not believe with it, and (the) manner/nature (of) the firsts/beginners had past/expired. And if We opened on them a door/entrance from the sky/space, so they continued/remained in it ascending/zigzagging. They would have said: "But our eye/sights/understanding got closed and confused, but we are a bewitched/enchanted nation." (15:3-15) And Allah gave an example/proverb (of) a village/urban city (that) was safe/secure assured/tranquillized/secured, its provision comes to it easily/comfortably from every place, so it disbelieved with Allah�s' blessings/good nesses, so Allah made it taste/experience the starvation's/hunger's cover/dress/mixture and the fear/fright, because (of) what they were making/producing/manufacturing. And a messenger from them had come to them so they denied him, so the torture took/punished them, and (while) they are unjust/oppressive. (16:112-113) And if We willed/wanted that We destroy/perish a village/urban city, We ordered/commanded its luxuriated ungrateful and arrogant, so they debauched in it, so the saying/words was deserved on it, so We destroyed it destructively. ( And (there is) none from a village/urban city, except (that) We are making it die/destroying it before the Resurrection Day, or torturing it strong (severe) torture, that was/is in The Book written/inscribed/drafted. ( We had descended to you a Book in it (is) your memory/mention, so do you not reason/understand? And how many from a village/urban city We destroyed/broke, (it) was unjust/oppressive, and We created/formed after it a nation (of) others. So when they felt with one of their physical senses Our might/power, then they are from it running (fleeing). Do not run, and return to what you were luxuriated/ungrateful and arrogant in it and your residences, maybe/perhaps you be asked/questioned. They said: "Oh our calamity that we, we were unjust/oppressive." So it was still/continuing that it (was) their call/prayer until We made them uprooted (and) silent/dead. (21:10-15) And forbidden on a village/urban city We made it die/destroyed it, that they do not return. Until when Yagog and Magog was opened, and they are for every/each hard/elevated ground, they rush down/separate. And the promise, the truth, neared/approached, so then those who disbelieved's eye sights it is (are) staring at. "Oh our calamity, we had been in negligence/disregard from this, rather we were unjust/oppressors." That you, and what you worship from other than Allah, (are) Hell's stones/fire fuel, you are to it nearing/approaching. If those were gods, they would not (have) neared/approached it, and each/all (is) in it immortal/eternal. For them in it (is the) sound of blazing or roaring fire, and they (are) in it not hearing/listening. That those whom the best/goodness from Us preceded for them, those are from it they are being kept far away. They do not hear its sound or noise, and they are in what their selves desired/craved immortal/eternal. (21:95-102) So how many from a village/urban city We made it die/destroyed it, and it is unjust/oppressive, so it is empty/destroyed on its ceilings/structures, and a well abandoned/inactive, and an erected/plastered castle/palace? Do they not walk/move/ride in the earth/Planet Earth, so it (can) be for them hearts/minds they reason/comprehend with it, or ears they hear/listen with it, so that it truly does not blind/confuse the eye sights/knowledge and but that the hearts/minds which (are) in the chests (innermosts) blind/confuse (although they have eyes, they refuse to accept it). And they hurry/hasten/urge you with the torture, and Allah will never/not break His promise, and that a day/time at your Lord (is) as a thousand years from what you count. And how many from a village/urban city I extended in time/life for it, and it is unjust/oppressive? Then I took/punished it, and to Me (is) the end/destination. (22:45-48) And they had come/passed by on (to) the village/urban city which was rained the fire's/harm's rain, where they not being seeing it? But they were not hoping/expecting revival/resurrection. And if they saw you, that they take you except mockingly/making fun: "Is that who Allah sent (as) a messenger?" "That he was about to/almost to misguide us from our gods, except for that we were patient on it." And they will know when they see/understand the torture who (is) more misguided a way/path. Did you see who took/received his god (as) his self attraction for desire, so do you be on him a guardian/ally? (25:40-43) So it comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly, and (while) they are not feeling/knowing/sensing. So they say: "Are we delayed?" Are (they) with Our torture hastening/urging? So did you see if We gave them long life/made them enjoy years? Then came to them what they were being promised. What they were being made to enjoy did not enrich/suffice (benefit) from them. And We did not destroy from a village/urban city, except for it (are) warners/givers of notice. (26:202-208) And how many We perished/destroyed from a village/urban city its life/livelihood/sustenance became unappreciated/undeserved (they were ungrateful for their livelihood), so those are their residences, did not get inhabited from after them, except a few/little, and We were, We, the heirs/inheritants. And your Lord was not perishing/destroying the villages/urban cities, until He sends in its origin a messenger, he reads/recites on (to) them Our verses/evidences/signs, and We were not destroying the villages/urban cities, except and (while) its people (are) unjust/oppressive. And you were not given from a thing so enjoyment (of) the life the present/worldly life, and its decoration/beauty/ornament, and what (is) at Allah (is) best and more lasting/continuing (everlasting), so do you not reason/comprehend? Is who We promised him a good/beautiful promise, so he is receiving/finding it, as who We made him enjoy the life the present's/worldly life's enjoyment then he is (on) the Resurrection Day from present/attending? (28:58-61) And those who were weakened said to those who were arrogant: "But the night's and daytime's cheatery/deceit when you order/command us that we disbelieve with (in) Allah, and we make/put/create for Him equals (idols)." And they kept the regret/remorse secret, when they saw the torture, and We made/put the leather or iron collars or hand cuffs in those who disbeliever�s necks, are they reimbursed except (for) what they were making/doing ? And We did not send in a village/urban city from a warner/giver of notice except (that) its luxuriated ungrateful and arrogant said: "That we with what you were sent with it (are) disbelieving." And they said: "We (have) more properties/possessions/wealth and children, and we are not with being tortured." (34:33-35) And give for them an example/proverb (of) the village's/urban city's owners/company, when the messengers came to them. When We sent to them two, so they denied/falsified them, so We strengthened/ supported with a third, so they said: "We (are) sent/being sent to you." They said: "You are not except humans equal/alike to us, and the merciful did not descend from a thing, that truly you are except lying/denying/falsifying." They said: "Our Lord knows, that we are to you sent/messengers." "And nothing (is) on us except the information/communication, the clear/evident." They said: "That we, we had a bad omen with you if you did not end/terminate/stop we will stone you, and a painful torture from us will touch you." They said: "Your omen (fate/future is) with you, (even if you) are, you were reminded, but you are a nation (of) wasters/extravagators." And from (the) farthest of the city/town came a man walking quickly he said: "You my nation, follow the messengers." (36:13-20) Or We gave them a Book from before it, so they are with it holding/seizing/grasping? But they said: "We, we found our fathers on a constitution (set example), and We on their tracks are guided." And as/like that We did not send from before you in a village/urban city from a warner/giver of notice except its luxuriated ungrateful and arrogant said: "We, we found our fathers on a constitution (set example), and we, on their tracks, we are following/imitating (their) example." (43:21-23) And how many from a village/urban city (that) disobeyed from its Lord's order/command and His messengers, so We counted/calculated (with) it (a) strong (severe) account/calculation, and We tortured it (an) awful/severe torture? So it tasted/experienced its matter's/affair's severity/consequences, and its matter's/affair's end/turn (result) was a loss/misguidance and perishment. Allah prepared for them a strong (severe) torture, so fear and obey Allah you (owners) of the pure minds/hearts, those who believed, Allah had descended to you a reminder/remembrance. A messenger, he reads/recites on you Allah's evident verses/evidences, to bring/drive out those who believed and made/did the correct/righteous deeds from the darknesses to the light, and who believes with (in) Allah and makes/does correct/righteous deeds, He enters him (into) treed gardens/paradises, the rivers/waterways flow from beneath it, immortally/eternally in it (for) ever, Allah had bettered for him a provision. (65:8-11) And a great sign was seen in the heavens, a woman having been clothed with the sun, and the moon was underneath her feet; and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and having a babe in womb. She cries, being in labor, and having been distressed to bear. And another sign was seen in the heavens. And, behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns! And on his heads were seven diadems, and his tail drew the third part of the stars of the heaven, and he throws them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child. And she bore a son, a male, who is going to shepherd all the nations with an iron staff. And her child was caught away to God, and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a thousand two hundred and sixty days. And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war, but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our brothers is thrown down, the one accusing them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul even until death. Because of this, be glad, the heavens and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the devil came down to you having great anger, knowing that he has a little time! And when the dragon saw that he was cast out onto the earth, he pursued the woman who bore the male. And two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, away from the serpent's face. And the serpent threw water out of his mouth like a river after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried off by the river. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon threw out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 12:1-17) And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an everlasting gospel to proclaim to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, Saying in a great voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him, because the hour of His judgment has come; also, Worship "Him who has made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea," and the springs of waters. (Ex. 20:11) And another angel followed, saying, The great city, And the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a great voice came from the throne from the And one of the seven angels having the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on the many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the ones inhabiting the earth became drunk from the wine of her fornication. And he carried me away into the wilderness, by the Spirit. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, filled with names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and being gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominations and unclean things of her fornication. And on her forehead was a name having been written: Mystery, And after these things I saw another angel coming down out of Heaven having great authority, and the earth was lighted up from his glory. And he cried in a strong, great voice, saying, Summary: 1) Is a Book descended?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 2) The Book is descended from whom?...Revelation, a Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev 1:1)�Koran, Allah 3) The Book that is descended describes a City and its destruction?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 4) What is this Book?...Revelation, the Book of Revelation�Koran, The Book 5) What is the City called?...Revelation, 6) Are there people in the City?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 7) Is the City full of luxuries?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 8) Do people generate great wealth from the City?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 9) Does the City glorify itself?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 10) Are warnings brought to the people of the City?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 11) Who brings the warnings?...Revelation, angels�Koran, angels/messengers 12) More than one angel comes?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 13) Is punishment sent to the people of the City?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 14) Do the angels bring forth destruction from the heavens?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 15) What is this destruction?...Revelation, large hail�Koran, stones 16) Will the City experience famine?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 17) Will the merchandise of the City be destroyed?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 18) Is the City destroyed?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 19) Is the destruction violent?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 20) Is the City consumed by Fire?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 21) Will the City be destroyed quickly?...Revelation, yes, on a violent impulse�Koran, yes 22) When will it be destroyed?...Revelation, in one hour�Koran, suddenly/unexpectedly 23) Will the 24) Are the believers urged to come out of her?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes 25) Will sounds ever be heard again?...Revelation, no�Koran, no 26) Will the 27) Revelation tells us that 28) Revelation also tells us that the woman of chapter 12 (Eve) is the same as the one mentioned in chapters 14, 17, & 18 29) She (the woman, Eve) represents the whole human race 30) The woman, in Rev chapter 12, is fleeing into the wilderness from Satan (seven heads, ten horns) 31) The woman, in Rev chapter 17, is found in the wilderness, and is now riding the beast/Satan (seven heads, ten horns) 32) 33) Man has been corrupted by Satan
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Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 11:21am
Again, no defence to my rebuttal! Good, that is all what I needed. |
Posted By: Orthodox
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 12:15pm
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If you go to the Converts to Islam section, I posted there, that I am a convert to Islam from the Ahmadiyya Qadiani Movement. You were a regular at the now extinct website ahmadiyya.com, and were posting the same stuff from the Book of Revelation, that you are now, approx 2 years later, at Islamicity .... Since the website is now extinct, I can't provide links, however, I am sure you remember .....
Jesus was not created. This is validated in both the Holy Bible and then later copied into the Koran�
You're telling me that the son of Mary, son of Man, that walked this earth, ate, slept, drank, and fell prostrate to the laws of God, was not created? His flesh existed prior to his spending 9 months in Mary's womb? Or did the eternal spirit of God that is breathed into every man, is what existed? Or was it predestined or decreed by God prior to its actual occurance, that the Messiah would be? I am sure you don't believe that the flesh of Jesus existed prior to its birth in Mary's womb. Jesus was a man-flesh. God is spirit. Period.
Jesus is the physical manifestation of God. Jesus is God in the flesh.
I already went over this, and hoped you had actually read what I wrote in regards to this before making this statement. Instead of re-writing it, i'll just quote myself:
- The Christians will always talk about their concept known as - Jesus is "God in the flesh". Does this mean that the flesh itself is divine (God), or does it mean that God dwells within the flesh spiritually? Obviously the statement says God IN (within) the flesh, not God IS the flesh. Coming back to the clear distinction between the flesh and the spirit which the Bible makes. Also noting the fact that the Bible is VERY clear that God is spirit.
Point being, the physical manifestation or the flesh itself is not God ... its the spiritual presence of God with and within (in) the physical-flesh-created aspect .... Jesus is not the only flesh-man to have the spiritual presence of God with and within .... According to Christian doctrine all born-agains recieve the spirit of God. Please tell me if you agree, that you are not worshiping the flesh of Jesus Christ, and if you are worshiping the flesh of Jesus, then clearly tell me that as well. Please don't beat around the bush on this one ... I would appreciate it ....
Adam, Eve, and Mel-chesidek are not "created" as most humans are either ..... Defying the laws of nature does not make the creation divine, it or he, Jesus, is still an element of God's creation. His physical structure, his body, his DNA, his flesh, is a creation of God. Do you deny this?
For IN (within) him, dwells the fullness of Godhead bodily ..... the flesh itself is not divine ..... the spirit of God that dwelled within or in him was divine, and that same spirit allegedly dwells within ALL:
One God is Father of ALL, who is above ALL, and through ALL, and in ALL. (Esphians 4:6; also see many more verses which say the same thing: John 17:20; John 14:20; Psalms 82:6)
Please tell us the vantage point of Jesus in Mark, verses the vantage point of Jesus in Revelation�
Well, this contradicts your point, because, the vantage point of Jesus, WHILE he is sitting on the right hand of God, is THEN, at that point, while Jesus is in heaven sitting on the right hand of God, that He, the son, DOES NOT KNOW THE HOUR ....
The rest of your post is erroneous as usual ... |
Posted By: Apple Pie
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 8:34pm
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Greetings Orthodox, Thanks for your selective reply�
If you go to the Converts to Islam section, I posted there, that I am a convert to Islam from the Ahmadiyya Qadiani Movement. A �convert to Islam� tells us that you follow Islam over that of your book of faith�as the two do not support one another. Had you stated that you were a follower of the classic Arabic of your scriptures; then you would have gained some of our respect� You were a regular at the now extinct website ahmadiyya.com, and were posting the same stuff from the Book of Revelation, that you are now, approx 2 years later, at Islamicity .... Since the website is now extinct, I can't provide links, however, I am sure you remember ..... Yes�we remember you�
You're telling me that the son of Mary, son of Man, that walked this earth, ate, slept, drank, and fell prostrate to the laws of God, was not created? His flesh existed prior to his spending 9 months in Mary's womb? Or did the eternal spirit of God that is breathed into every man, is what existed? Or was it predestined or decreed by God prior to its actual occurance, that the Messiah would be? I am sure you don't believe that the flesh of Jesus existed prior to its birth in Mary's womb. Jesus was a man-flesh. God is spirit. Period.
I already went over this, and hoped you had actually read what I wrote in regards to this before making this statement. Instead of re-writing it, i'll just quote myself: - The Christians will always talk about their concept known as - Jesus is "God in the flesh". Does this mean that the flesh itself is divine (God), or does it mean that God dwells within the flesh spiritually? Obviously the statement says God IN (within) the flesh, not God IS the flesh. Coming back to the clear distinction between the flesh and the spirit which the Bible makes. Also noting the fact that the Bible is VERY clear that God is spirit. Point being, the physical manifestation or the flesh itself is not God ... its the spiritual presence of God with and within (in) the physical-flesh-created aspect .... Jesus is not the only flesh-man to have the spiritual presence of God with and within .... According to Christian doctrine all born-agains recieve the spirit of God. Please tell me if you agree, that you are not worshiping the flesh of Jesus Christ, and if you are worshiping the flesh of Jesus, then clearly tell me that as well. Please don't beat around the bush on this one ... I would appreciate it .... Let�s look� Joh 1:1 In1722 the beginning746 was2258 the3588 Word,3056 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 with4314 God,2316 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 God.2316 Joh 1:2 The same3778 was2258 in1722 the beginning746 with4314 God.2316 Joh 1:3 All things3956 were made1096 by1223 Him;846 and2532 without5565 Him846 was not3761 any thing1520 made1096 that3739 was made.1096 Joh 1:4 In1722 Him846 was2258 life;2222 and2532 the3588 life2222 was2258 the3588 light5457 of men.444 John tells us this:
Joh 1:9 That was2258 the3588 true228 Light,5457 which3739 lighteth5461 every3956 man444 that cometh2064 into1519 the3588 world.2889 Joh Joh John tells us this:
Joh John tells us this:
Thus�.it is quite clear from the above that the Word is Jesus�.and that Jesus brought into existence the entire physical Universe including the flesh of which He manifested His earthly tenure� Now�.compare the Spirit�. Luke 1�compare to sura 21� Well�.let�s review both in context�first the Koranic passages� 21.89 And Zachary/Zacharias/Zachariah when he called/cried (to) his Lord: "My Lord do not leave me alone, and you are the heirs'/inheritants' best." 21.90 So We answered/replied to him, and We granted to him John/Yahya and We corrected/reconciliated for him his wife , that they truly were speeding/rushing in the goodnesses, and they call Us desiring/wishing and with awe/monastically , and they were for Us humble/submissive . 21.91 And who remained chaste/(protected) her genital parts, so We blew into her from Our Soul/Spirit , and We made/created her and her son (as) an evidence/sign to the creations all together/(universes). 21.92 That this (is) your handmaid, one handmaid, and I am your Lord, so worship Me. 21.93 And they separated/divided their matter/affair between them, all/each to Us are returning. 21.94 So who makes/does from the correct/righteous deeds, and he is believing, so (there is) no cover/substitution (denial) for his striving/endeavor , We are for it/him writing/dictating . 21.95 And forbidden on a village/urban city We made it die/destroyed it , that they do not return. 21.96 Until when Yagog and Magog was opened , and they are for every/each hard/elevated ground, they rush down/separate . Now�let�s compare to Luke chapter one (where these Koranic ayahs had their genesis)�. (Luk 1:5) In the days of Herod the king of (Luk 1:6) And they were both righteous before God, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. (Luk 1:7) And no child was born to them, because (Luk 1:8 ) And it happened in his serving as priest in the order of his course before God, (Luk 1:9) according to the custom of the priests, entering into the (Luk 1:10) And all the multitude of the people was praying outside at the hour of incense. (Luk 1:11) And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right of the altar of incense. (Luk 1:12) And seeing this, Zacharias was troubled, and fear fell on him. (Luk 1:13) But the angel said to him, Do not fear, Zacharias, because your prayer was heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear a son to you, and you shall call his name John. (Luk 1:14) And he will be joy and exultation to you, and many will rejoice over his birth. (Luk 1:15) For he shall be great in the eyes of the Lord, and he shall not drink wine or strong drink. And he will be filled of the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. (Luk 1:16) And he will turn many of the sons of (Luk 1:17) And he will go out before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah "to turn the hearts of fathers to their children," and disobedient ones to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people having been prepared for the Lord. Mal. 4:5, 6 (Luk (Luk 1:19) And answering, the angel said to him, I am Gabriel, who stands before God, and I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you the good news of these things. (Luk 1:20) And behold, you shall be silent and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which shall be fulfilled in their season. (Luk 1:21) And the people were expecting Zacharias, and they wondered at his delay in the temple. (Luk 1:22) But coming out, he was not able to speak to them, and they recognized that he had seen a vision in the temple. And he was making signs to them and continued dumb. (Luk 1:23) And it happened when the days of his service were fulfilled, he went away to his house. (Luk 1:24) And after these days his wife Elizabeth conceived. And she hid herself five months, saying, (Luk 1:25) So has the Lord done to me in the days in which He looked on me to take away my reproach among men. (Luk 1:26) And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of (Luk 1:27) to a virgin who had been betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. (Luk (Luk 1:29) And seeing this, she was disturbed at his word, and considered what kind of greeting this might be. (Luk 1:30) And the angel said to her, Do not fear, Mary, for you have found favor from God. (Luk 1:31) And behold! You will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will call His name Jesus. (Luk 1:32) This One will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. (Luk 1:33) And He will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages, and of His kingdom there will be no end. (Luk 1:34) But Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I do not know a man? (Luk 1:35) And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God. (Luk 1:36) And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth! She also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month to her who was called barren; (Luk 1:37) for nothing shall be impossible with God. (Luk Here are the undeniable parallels between these split passages: 1) Zacharias & his wife are told that they will have a child?�.Luke, yes�.Koran, yes 2) Will the child be a boy?.....Luke, yes�.Koran, yes 3) What will the child�s name be?.....Luke, John�..Koran, John 4) Next, will a virgin become pregnant?....Luke, yes�..Koran, yes 5) Is this virgin considered a slave woman (handmaid)?...Luke, yes�Koran, yes 6) Who tells the virgin this?...Luke, Holy Spirit�.Koran, Holy Spirit 7) Will the child be a boy?....Luke, yes�.Koran, yes 8 ) Will this child be a miracle?.....Luke, yes�.Koran, yes See how the Koran copied the Holy Bible�.? Thus�.it is quite clear from the above examples that Jesus is both the Holy Spirit and the Word. Jesus has always existed. The deity is interchangeable�just as we showed you from the few examples from the Book of Revelation. Now�observe this startling revelation from your very own scriptures� 4:171 You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on Allah except the truth, but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son Allah's messenger and His Word He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with Allah, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, but Allah (is) one Allah, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what (is) in the skies/space and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with Allah (as a) guardian/protector.
It is clear from the text that Jesus is both Mary�s and (in this case) �allah�s� son. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Observe that Jesus is not merely �allah�s messenger; but he is also �wa� his Word. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Furthermore, the �allah� of the Koran is shown to have a Spirit which is also imputed into Jesus. Same theme copied from the Holy Bible. Thus�.we have just witnessed three elements of �allah�. Now...look what is stated next� �do not say: "Three." Why should we not say that �allah� is three when we were just told of three elements that pertain to him�.? Here�s why� Because� �Allah (is) one Allah� What a novel idea. Sound familiar�.? It should, as it is lifted right out of the Holy Bible. Furthermore�look at what the text states after this� �verily he shall be a child for Him� Rock-solid Biblical confirmation that Jesus is God's son!!! Please tell us�.how the one god �allah� can have a Spirit�and a Word�.and a son�.!
Adam, Eve, and Mel-chesidek are not "created" as most humans are either ..... Defying the laws of nature does not make the creation divine, it or he, Jesus, is still an element of God's creation. His physical structure, his body, his DNA, his flesh, is a creation of God. Do you deny this? Please bring forth the �creation� ayahs of Adam, Eve, and �Mel-chesidek� For comparison against Jesus�.
For IN (within) him, dwells the fullness of Godhead bodily ..... the flesh itself is not divine ..... the spirit of God that dwelled within or in him was divine, and that same spirit allegedly dwells within ALL: We have amply demonstrated that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Word which is the same as Jesus Christ. It�s time you became cognizant of the Triune entity Creator God revealed in the Holy Bible�.as the authors of your book of faith also copied these same elements over into their opus� One God is Father of ALL, who is above ALL, and through ALL, and in ALL. (Esphians 4:6; also see many more verses which say the same thing: John 17:20; John 14:20; Psalms 82:6) And�.?
Well, this contradicts your point, because, the vantage point of Jesus, WHILE he is sitting on the right hand of God, is THEN, at that point, while Jesus is in heaven sitting on the right hand of God, that He, the son, DOES NOT KNOW THE HOUR .... You had the golden opportunity to admit that Jesus occupies the throne, as clearly stated in the Book of Revelation�.yet you failed to acknowledge this�.why is that�.? Clearly�.Jesus knows the hour�.as He is God Almighty and has the vantage point of Heaven. Thanks� |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 10:09am
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Dear bro St. Apple Pie, your illogical textural manipulations are now no more secret. Your selective pick and choose kind of stuff is full of erroneous beliefs and yet you seem to be so adamant that instead of logically refuting the others, you resort to invoke emotions in your arguments. Here is one example which reflects your special sts relationship with your St. Paul "
Well, this contradicts your point, because, the vantage point of Jesus, WHILE he is sitting on the right hand of God, is THEN, at that point, while Jesus is in heaven sitting on the right hand of God, that He, the son, DOES NOT KNOW THE HOUR .... You had the golden opportunity to admit that Jesus occupies the throne, as clearly stated in the Book of Revelation�.yet you failed to acknowledge this�.why is that�.? Clearly�.Jesus knows the hour�.as He is God Almighty and has the vantage point of Heaven."
Do you have any valid reason to negate this argument other than your emotions? If not, then that is ok...and there is no use to beat about the bush.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 10:40am
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Here is a interesting thought for the Evangelical to contemplate: A challenge to the Christain understanding on God's love: 1) If God is so ever loving prove that its unconditional or conditional if, unconditional prove how religious influence does not run contrary to his unconditional love. If conditional then its important to note that God is not ever loving and that his love is selective for those who convert to a specific religious congregation. This is indeed a challenge to the one who is an evangelical but of course like most, always uses scripture but I doubt scripture will help in this case. Let me help in the first case of my challenge what I mean by how "his unconditional love does not run contrary to religious influence" what I mean is, is that how does God loving all of his creatures equally (since everybody is seen loved unconditionally this is equal) is not influenced by Evangelical doctrine? From ym understanding one has to believe in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. Now if God loves all unconditionally then one does not need to believe in such since God is seen unconditional how does that not run contrary to Evangelical belief? Also, if conditional then God is not ever loving as Christians mention and is selective on those he love (What I mean by love is the blessing of being near to him) so how does God being conditional support their claims on God?
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 11:02pm
| Surprised, no takers....lol |
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 1:04am
Acts 4:12 says, "There is no other name given under heaven by which men must be saved." It does not say that all men will know or call on that Name verbally to be saved. (i.e. the sinner's prayer or some such confession like that). Romans 3 talks about the conscience alternately accusing or defending one before God. God is just and desires that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Tim. 2:4) And so God can very well simultaneously love unconditionally, and have a reasonable, available and universal condition for salvation (i.e. Jesus is the Way) to satisfy His justice. It is God's justice that demands the condition of the Sacrifice for sins. It is the provision of that Sacrifice, like the ram in the the thicket for Abraham to save Isaac, that proves God's unconditional love for all humanity. It is the rejection of God's unconditional love that place people outside of the condition of His justice and condemns them. It is not God's lack of love or conditional love that condemns them but their own rejection of God and His love. Another simultaneous proof of God's unconditional love and his condition for satisfying Justice is that He credits men and women's faith to them as righteousness, as He did with Abraham. (Romans 4:9, and c.f. Romans 3 that I referred to above.) It is a fact, that none of those that lived before Jesus, called on His name specifically and so there must be salvation by other means than just the literal sinner's prayer (as in the crediting righteousness to Abraham due to his faith.) http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=9&version=31&context=verse - Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. The Bible also says that one day 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.' It is my belief that God's preference is for everyone to call on the Name of Jesus (His Son in Whom He is well pleased) but that He is prepared, in His infinite wisdom, to make a Way of salvation that, while it doesn't include literally calling on the Name of Jesus, utilized the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice (as I mentioned earlier that God credited righteousness to Abraham because of his faith.) Those people that did not have the opportunity, for a legitimate reason, to call on the Name of Jesus in this world, will someday confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (to the Glory of God the Father.) And in God's wisdom, He will impute the faith of some of these as righteousness. And so all are without excuse before the great and awesome God. Hebrews affirms - "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Wouldn't you rather embrace God's Provision now in Jesus Christ, than wait and chance things then? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him, would not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 ------------- Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 9:08am
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B95000 said: >>>>>And so God can very well simultaneously love unconditionally, and have a reasonable, available and universal condition for salvation (i.e. Jesus is the Way) to satisfy His justice. It is God's justice that demands the condition of the Sacrifice for sins.<<<<< I knew one of you would step in the fallacy trap.....I'm gonna first call you "B"for short. Second you have two contradictions in one paragraph. Like laws that are clear if God specifically stated in clear Hebrew (or whatever language spoken) that this was the way it would have been clear. However the laws were not clear and various groups do not share this view. So is God not going to allow the Muslim not to attain paradise because he doesn't believe Jesus is his God rather than a prophet? If not then this is conditional love. You made the mistake by equating unconditional love and conditional laws because unconditional love the emotion superceeds laws. logically God wouldn't unconditionally love the child rapist muderer if he continues to break his laws. Notice I use the latter portion of the example and how it differs from yours. Your latter portion of your remarks refers to religious creed which is not a universal law. Univerally not every human subscribes to that religious tenent hence it is not a universal. However, majority of the humans on the planet believe in One God. To me that is more universal than a creed that specifically pertains to a religion. B, God is conditional and God has made specific commands of humans to follow. If God were unconditional there would be no laws, because his love would superceed those laws and he would forgive every sin and every transgression. God is conditional because he prefers the good over the bad. God is conditional because he prefers the monotheist over the atheist. God is conditional because he picks certain individuals to bring his message rather than the whole of humanity. To say his love is unconditional yet his laws are conditional are not only different categories of application, because they are contradictory...Try again! |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 August 2005 at 4:47pm
| Funny where are the Evangelist when you need them to answer a question hmmmmmm |
Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 6:37pm
------------- Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 14 August 2005 at 3:06pm
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B95000: You said: >>>>With all due respect Israfil, you're being trite in your metaphor. My apologies with the Metaphor but your approach on how to view God I disagree with. First and foremost perhaps when you say that God is our "Heavenly Father" perhaps you refer in the poetic sense that he is our Creator. However poetics are not we are all his creation and not his children for Allah bears nothing from him nor is there anything besides him. Second, again as I mentioned before laws that are set in society are conditions of freedom until one transgress those laws and breaks them. Again if unconditional love is with God why does he favor one behavior over another? The parent that sets rules for his/her children in accordance to "good" prefers the attribute of good and sets laws in accordance to that, but those laws are a condition upon the pleasure/displeasure of the parent hence a conditon. B you said: >>>That's why it all comes back to true faith - God imputes faith as righteousness, as he did with Abraham.<<<< Brother I agree, it comes back to the hanif Abraham who even turned away from his own blood to the faith of God. Which we Muslims follow we follow and worship the Lord of Abraham. B you said: "The Muslim of sincere faith in God (Allah) will be saved through Jesus' sacrifice, just like the Christian. It is my view that if a Muslim were to encounter Jesus the way many do or the way Jesus really is then they too would bow their knee and say as Thomas said, "My Lord and My God." But all these things are up to God..I'm basing my views on Romans 2 and 3 however." This again is a logical fallacy. God is conditional based upon the theological concepts of Christianity and the Judeo-Christian teachings. However its important to note that Jews do not share in this view although there are some Jew who believe Jesus was a great Rabbi the majority do not believed he exist. Second, because of Al-Qur'an and its corrections on past doctrines its impossible for a Muslim to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus if the Qur'an states otherwise. But regardless if God overlooks good sincere monotheism for the belief in the sacrifice of Jesus then not only is God not ethical but again, conditional. B you said: >>>>God has already unconditionally loved his children. He doesn't stop loving His children, but neither does he stop the consequences for evil actions. Call that conditional if you want (especially if you believe in determinism theologically) but even so, it is God who decides when a person falls outside the purview of His love. So technically, since we're going there, God's love is great, the width, breadth, length and height, no one can know (as it says in one of the Epistles) but the point at which it intersects with justice or God's judgment it ceases to be absolutely unconditional (but that has more to do with the point of judgment) - let's put it this way - in this world the good gifts of God falls on the righteous and the unrighteous...God is loving us - in this life - unconditionally. But if we want to enter God's heaven, we'd best heed to the conditions for that.<<<<< Again and again you keep maiking that same mistake brother as I mentioned before for you to say God loves me unconditional yet sets a religious condition upon me (when you mask as justice in your earlier remarks) that is conditional. You must also mention that God sets up moral and ethical laws because he favors the attributes of good rather bad. God also prefers the attributes of a monotheist and not an atheist. Since I have to believe in the religious belief of Jesus' sacrifice then that is the religious condition God has set upon me to believe which makes God ultimately conditional. In Islam God is universally conditional although he is always merciful the two are different and shouldn't be allocated to each other. God loves all humans in their nature but does not love all humans unconditonally in their nature. If so, then the nature of an evil man would be acceptable to God base don his unwavering love. Now extending this futher according to his moral laws if God loves the evil person unconditionally and this person takes another humans life in vain his actions wouldn't matter. As I mentioned before emotions sometimes superceeds rationality. Although I know God is both, God's preferences makes him conditional consequently. |
Posted By: thomas
Date Posted: 21 August 2005 at 1:22am
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Aren't most of you splitting hairs? Don't look at the leaves, but at the whole tree ! Look at the trunk and big branches of the Christianity tree and the Islam tree. Isn't it better to discuss the origins and authenticity of both books ? If the Koran is just correcting and rectifying what has been said in the Bible, then in this topic we have to try to have an answer on the question : "Has God in Evangelical Christianity" been rectified by the Qur'an? If yes, what should the corrected God's image then look like? On what verses in the Qur'an? If there is no basis whatever in the Qur'an then for a correction of God's image as depicted in the Bible, then we -- everybody -- should accept the image of God as described in the Bible. His lovingkindness, etc. completely, in its entirety, just as is said in the Bible. The God in Evangelical Christianity is the God of true Love as the Bible explaines -- except, perhaps, when the Qur'an has corrected. or even perhaps, denied it. And your debate whether God's love is unconditional or not, becomes more a 'technical' question, rather than a 'constitutional' one, because you have accepted the God of the Bible, and we have accepted the authenticity of both books. Thanks, Tom [I've touched upon this also in the topic "Quran II".]
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