Doubts of Calvin
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Category: Religion - Islam
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Topic: Doubts of Calvin
Posted By: calvindamenace
Subject: Doubts of Calvin
Date Posted: 10 March 2010 at 2:43pm
Well it does seem like this board has a censorship and they like to close threads they don't like and approve one's they find suitable for themselves. Look for my other thread "Need help" By the way, by doing so you only show how ignorant you are..
Seekshadiyath always wanted to talk about salah, let's do so. Explain to me why is it that I have to pray in arabiq? Why do I have to mutter some sounds that have no meaning for me instead of praying to God in my own language.. I'm sure God would understand me in any language.. Why is it that we have to pray specific way..?
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Replies:
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 10 March 2010 at 5:30pm
"You are so ignorant, no, let me refrase myself - you are really dumb as a metter of a fact.. Yeah I said that. You are not so bright. Who made you an admin on this source? They had to be not so cleaver themselves.. Why'd you close my thread? Did you see how many people read it? It means people are intrested and we could have continued right there!! But I get it, it's just easier to close a thread.. then to keep getting emberassed. Well now that you've breathed for a second, there's another one.. "Need help 2", let's see how you do this time."
That was Caivin Private message to me. Let me clarify, if your doubts would embarass us, we would not have asked you to start a new thread. Our only intention was to be clear of what exactly are we discussing in a subject. Insha Allah, this thread, we shall clarify your doubts that which are related to Salah. Untill then kindly don't crop up any other topic.
Even when a thread is closed, any member can read that. ANy number of questions are always welcomed, unless i find them to be sincere in studying Islam, else Islam would not permit those arguments which are intentionally for the sake of arguments or defaming Islam.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 10 March 2010 at 5:44pm
Explain to me why is it that I have to pray in arabiq? Why do I have to mutter some sounds that have no meaning for me instead of praying to God in my own language.. I'm sure God would understand me in any language.. Why is it that we have to pray specific way..?
Read these notes, {Don't say its long. It shall completly answer your question. For a seeker of knowledge, length does n't matter untill his thirst of knowledge is quenched.
Why Should a Muslim Offer Salat in Arabic?
BEING a universal religion, Islam is meant for all people with their different languages. Although Arabic is the language of the Qur'an and Islamic heritage, Islam did not aim at eradicating other languages that are mother tongues of Muslims in some parts of the globe.
Islam views the differences of human tongues as one of the Signs of Allah in His creation. This is proven by the fact that Arabic is not the native tongue of the majority of Muslims. However, Muslims are required to perform prayer in Arabic with few exceptions, as in case of new converts until they become able to say their prayers in Arabic, worship (Salat),
Muslims employ only the Arabic language: They recite certain passages of the Qur'an and pronounce certain formulae to attest to the sublimity of Allah and humility of man. This is done both by the Arabs and the non-Arabs, even by those who do not know a word of Arabic. Such was the case in time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and such has been the case to this day, whatever the country and the tongue of Muslims.
At first sight it may seem normal and even desirable that the faithful should address his prayer to the Lord in a way that he is fully conscious of what he says. Of course, the mother tongue is the medium best suited for the purpose, the worship being performed in as many languages as are spoken by the Muslim community. But a little deeper consideration shows that there are reasons that militate strongly against such a solution.
It is noteworthy that according to the Islamic belief the Qur'an is the Word of Allah, the recitation of which is considered as something meritorious. This is evident from the spiritual point of view. It stands as the faithful journey unto the Lord through the sacred word of the Lord Himself. His Word is the path toward Him, something like a wire to conduct the electrical current that illuminates the bulb. The journey unto the Lord is of course the ultimate goal that every soul aspires to reach. The original Word has been revealed in Arabic: any translation would be a human work and human word, and this can scarcely serve the purpose of this mystical journey.
For those who would seek more mundane reasons, let us recall first that a clear distinction is to be made between prayer, in the sense of supplication (Du`aa), and the prayer in the sense of the service of worship (Salat), in so far as Du`aa is concerned � i.e., the prayer in general and outside the formal way of worshiping Allah, the tete-tete with the Lord (munajaat)� nobody has ever raised the slightest objection to the liberty of the individual to address one's need, one's petitions to the Lord in any language and in any physical posture one prefers. It is purely personal and private affair and concerns the relations of the individual creature directly with the Creator.
The Salat (prayer), on the contrary, is a collective and public affair, where the needs and requirements of other companions of the congregation are evidently to be taken into consideration. It is important to note that the Salat is in principle and preferably to be performed in common along with others (congregation): the Salat individually and in isolation is only tolerated and is never recommended, going to the congregational service is preferred. Let us see now more closely the diverse aspects of this collective and public act which is performed in the company of others.
Had Islam been a regional, racial or national religion, one would certainly have employed the current language of the region, of the race, of the nation. But quite different are the requirements of a universal religion, whose members speak hundreds of regional languages � of which each is incomprehensible to all the rest of the human groups � belonging to different races and regions of the earth. Our life today is getting more and more cosmopolitan, and practically every town has Muslims belonging to several linguistic groups, both from among the permanent residents and the travelers in transit, and has to take into consideration the aspect of courtesy and hospitality to strangers.
Supposing an Englishman goes to China and knows not a word of its language, and supposing he hears in the street something like "chen chu chih shan", evidently he would not understand what is meant by that; and if it is the regional translation of the well-known call to prayer, the Allah-o-Akbar, he would fail to perceive it and would miss the weekly prayer on Friday, or the congregational prayer of the moment.
Similarly a Chinese Muslim, traveling through other countries, would find nothing in common with his co-religionists if these others said their congregational worship in their local tongues. So a universal religion requires certain basic things to be common to all the faithful. A passing remark may be made about the fact that sometimes words of two different languages sound alike but have different meanings, at times the harmless word of one signifying something ridiculous or obscene in another. Such a risk is greater in languages with which one is utterly unfamiliar, and hears them only during a journey for example. This would be contrary to the dignity of the service of worship to Allah. Things familiar from childhood avoid such complications, even if the individual is a non-Arab and recites in Arabic the required formulae.
One cannot neglect the psychological aspect of human beings who have at times shown prejudices of xenophobia. Occasions would arise daily when political (national) or even personal and individual frictions would induce, for instance, an Englishman not to participate in the Salat led in French or Russian or some other language. Arabic, as the language of the Qur'an and the Hadith, has a respect and a halo in the minds of every Muslim, and one employs it not as the language of the Arabs but as the language of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the language of the Mothers of the Faithful, the language Allah Himself has chosen for revealing His latest Word to us.
The needs of unity among the co-religionists can never be too much stressed upon. One should create new links to strengthen their ties of fraternity, rather than destroy those that already exist.
There is another aspect of the question which is no less important. In fact no translation ever replaces the original. There are for instance, nowadays numerous translations of the Holy Qur'an in English (as also in practically every language of the world), yet every now and then there are new and unceasing attempts to produce another translation, thinking that the older ones are partly defective. This is true not only of English but of every language of the world, and true also of the translation of any and every work. Should one utilize a defective thing or the perfect one, the translation or the original?
Let us recall in this connection that practically no religion, except Islam, possesses today integrally the original of the Revelation on which it is based, the original teaching of its founder: It is the translation, or at best fragments, of which dispose the Christian, Jewish, and other communities. How fortunate the Muslims are that they form an exception, and possess integrally the original text of the Revelation, the Holy Qur'an!
One should not lose sight of the fact that in the entire Salat there are very few passages to recite. There are first the Adhan and Iqamah (call to prayer). Then inside the service of worship there are the formulae Allah-o-Akbar, Subhana rabbiyal-'azim, Subhana rabbial-a`la, the short chapter Al-Fatiha, two other short chapters, the Tashahhud, and that is all. The totality does not exceed a page or two, and most of the words of these texts are commonly understood by the Muslim masses and have penetrated into all the languages of the Muslim countries, so much so that even a child or a beginner learns their meaning without pain or strain. And once the significance of these formulae is learnt, the Salat of a Muslim remains no more a mechanical recitation without understanding.
There is an aspect of Arabic language which merits to be brought into relief here. Apart from its incomparable musical qualities, the Arabic language itself, in its literary form, has not changed since at least 1500 years neither in grammar, nor vocabulary, nor spelling, nor even pronunciation. Those who understand the language of Arabic newspapers and radio broadcasts today understand as perfectly the language of the Holy Qur'an. For a religion brought by the last of the Messengers of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets, and also destined for all times till the end of the world, is it not providential that the language selected for this Message should also be otherwise stable and unchanging?
Of course, there are provisions for exceptional cases, such as the needs of a new convert: immediately on his embracing Islam, he has to commence to perform the five daily services in which it is necessary to recite by heart the prescribed formulae. Until such time as he learns these formulae by heart, he may use their sense in any other language he can. For this we have the very high precedent of Salman Al-Farsi, who sent the translation of Al-Fatiha to some Persian converts, with the authorization of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself and they used it until their tongue got familiarized with the Arabic text.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 11 March 2010 at 8:41am
Of course, there are provisions for exceptional cases, such as the needs of a new convert: immediately on his embracing Islam, he has to commence to perform the five daily services in which it is necessary to recite by heart the prescribed formulae. Until such time as he learns these formulae by heart, he may use their sense in any other language he can. For this we have the very high precedent of Salman Al-Farsi, who sent the translation of Al-Fatiha to some Persian converts, with the authorization of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself and they used it until their tongue got familiarized with the Arabic text.
But Muslims recite other Surahs after Al fatiha in their prayers.So what did these ppl do /?Just recite Sura Al Fatiha's meaning and thats it?
------------- ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 11 March 2010 at 5:55pm
As Salamu Alaikum
If you had read the post Haris, its mentioned about provisions of new converts.
By the way, your answer quiet puzzled me. You said, we have everything answered in Qur;an. How do you support your post with just Qur'an {not hadiths
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 March 2010 at 1:23pm
Peace,
By Muslims in my post,i mean the Sunnis in particular.Y only the Fateha was sent to the new converts to by heart and not any other surahs along with it was sent?This was my question.And i ask this becoz most muslims today recite surahs after the fateha as if it is an important part of the Salah.And FYI i do not recite anything else other than Fateha.And fateha is a prayer from the Quran.And it is called fateha(key or opening) becoz it is considered as the key throo which contact with GOD is established thereby making it an important part of Salat.Plus there are mathematical proofs confirming it which i wud say u can verify yourself if you wish to.
Peace!
------------- ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 March 2010 at 7:25pm
I would not argue about sunni/shia. I have proofs from hadith as well, but you don't accept hadith. So our discussions take us nowhere. We offer salah the way Prophet offered, and we get its details from hadith.
My question to you is Haris, what do you read in salah {Proof from Qur'an}
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 13 March 2010 at 12:40am
And FYI i do not recite anything else other than Fateha.And fateha is a prayer from the Quran.And it is called fateha(key or opening) becoz it is considered as the key throo which contact with GOD is established.
i think i already answered your question in my previous post.Now if you are asking me about what i say in my Ruku,sujood etc.Its pretty much similar to what u say.By upholding the Quran alone,one does not mean that we make a whole new Salat altogether.The Salat i believe has been preserved by Almighty Allah all the way from Prophet Ibrahim.Ofcourse there were and still are some corruptions.And thats y the Quran was revealed and is being preserved by Allah so that people can constantly check if there is anything wrong and corrupt in the words they utter,the religious practices they perform,the way they behave etc etc..everything is there in the Quran by Allah's grace.All praise to him alone.The Quran helps us purify our souls and the practices we perform as a form of worship to Allah alone.So there is no dispute if u say Subhana Rabbial Azeem when u do Ruku or Subahana Rabbial A'ala when u do sujood.The words of Praises to GOD is there in the Quran.So one who follows the Quran alone wouldnt dispute that.Everything were actually handed down from generation to generation.And some may have recorded it and some may not have.Thats a whole different issue.The point is that GOD preserved certain information till this very day.IF you look clearly its just not the Salat but there are many other non religious things that we do in our daily lives even today which came from earlier generations.So one cannot say that its impossible that Salat was preserved all the way from Prophet Ibrahim.For GOD as we all know,anything is possible.Prophet Muhammad was asked to follow the religion of Prophet Ibrahim.That verse in the Quran wouldnt make any sense if the religion of Ibrahim was not preserved till the time of Prophet Muhammed.The verse proves in a way that GOD preserves the practices but at the same time lets corrupters corrupt it with their innovations and idol worship.Such is GOD's system.All Glory be to him alone.The hadiths or any other books for that matter can only be refered as history books to get some information.Not a source of religious law or guidance.The only source of LAW and guidance is the Quran and nothing but the Quran.This is my understanding.May GOD guide us.
"I would not argue about sunni/shia. I have proofs from hadith as well, but you don't accept hadith."
Good for you but I believe that proofs from the actual word of GOD (Al Quran)supersedes or dominates anything and everything else be it from anywhere.And this is why im content with the actual word of GOD and nothing else.
The verses from the Quran proving the above has been posted by myself in my previous posts.You may verify them again.Thank you :).
My question of why only the Fateha was sent to the new converts to memorize and not any other Surahs remain unanswered.From what i see.. in your earlier post ,only the Fateha is to be recited in the Salat otherwise ..why wud the Prophet only send the Fateha to the new converts ,ie if he ever did that :) ?
Peace!
------------- ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 13 March 2010 at 11:55pm
As Salamu Alaikum
Thanks for your reply. Am sorry that i missed reading and responding to your line of surah Fatiha.
Scholars say that since its not easy for reverts to memorize surahs soon, even if they do proper rukuh and sujood, its enough. Daleel for this is the hadith - wherein Prophet {Pbuh} said, pray as you see me praying'.
Coming to salah, the point is if i say subhana Rabbial ala' and you say Subhana rabbial azeem, there's no uniformity at all. How cud unity be gained amongst us.
Fatiha is opening. I would take it as opening of Qur'an, while you take it as opening as salah. What do you say now ? But when we cling to hadith wherein there's no contradiction at all that fatiha shud not be recited, and all do recite it as Prophet offered so. Does it not cause unity ?
IF you look clearly its just not the Salat but there are many other non religious things that we do in our daily lives even today which came from earlier generations.So one cannot say that its impossible that Salat was preserved all the way from Prophet Ibrahim
Yes things must have passed on from generations, but they are not practised in the same form. They keep changing when passed. Jews offer salah in a different way , the salah of in the early days of Islam was different than that was offered in the later stages of Islam, What would you say now ? Wherein Qur'an did Allah swt say that he preserved the salah from days of Ibrahim ? By the way how do you backup your statement that salah is preserved ?
Its not necessary that things when pass from generation to generation remain the same.
My question regarding salah was, why shud one offer 2 units of rakah or 4 units as prescribed ?
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 13 March 2010 at 11:56pm
why wud the Prophet only send the Fateha to the new converts ,ie if he ever did that :) ?
I did not understand that Haris . Who said Prophet would send fateha to new converts ?
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 15 March 2010 at 1:10am
Peace,
Scholars say that since its not easy for reverts to memorize surahs soon, even if they do proper rukuh and sujood, its enough. Daleel for this is the hadith - wherein Prophet {Pbuh} said, pray as you see me praying'.
Coming to salah, the point is if i say subhana Rabbial ala' and you say Subhana rabbial azeem, there's no uniformity at all. How cud unity be gained amongst us.
hmm..well i think u answered your question even before you put the question out.And.. i dont think the person standing next to me or the imam necessarily hears what im saying in my prayers to cause any kind of disuniformity during a congregational prayer.We all say the Fateha.sooo i guess uniformity can be achieved.Political leaders and some Muslims of various sects pray with each other these days to create unity and friendship.How do they achieve uniformity?Are u sure they all say the same things in their prayers other than the fateha?I know some people (Sunnis and Shias alike for example)say some words more and some less in their sujood and rukus.So doesnt that too cause disuniformity?OK now do u wana know how real unity can be achieved.Well here goes.
[3:103] You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided. Recall GOD's blessings upon you―you used to be enemies and He reconciled your hearts. By His grace, you became brethren. You were at the brink of a pit of fire, and He saved you therefrom. GOD thus explains His revelations for you, that you may be guided.
Fatiha is opening. I would take it as opening of Qur'an, while you take it as opening as salah. What do you say now ? But when we cling to hadith wherein there's no contradiction at all that fatiha shud not be recited, and all do recite it as Prophet offered so. Does it not cause unity ?
a ..a.. nope i consider Fatiha as opening of the Quran AND my Salat .Now looking into the content of the Fateha u will know its a prayer which calls itself Fateha(opening).So i dont think one needs to have a PHD to recognize that its a possible part of the Salat.Plus like i said before there are other mathematical proofs to support it which u may verify online if u are interested.
Yes things must have passed on from generations, but they are not practised in the same form. They keep changing when passed. Jews offer salah in a different way , the salah of in the early days of Islam was different than that was offered in the later stages of Islam, What would you say now ? Wherein Qur'an did Allah swt say that he preserved the salah from days of Ibrahim ? By the way how do you backup your statement that salah is preserved ?
Its not necessary that things when pass from generation to generation remain the same.
My question regarding salah was, why shud one offer 2 units of rakah or 4 units as prescribed ?
U missed the whole point again.U need 2 read my earlier post carefully..Lets examine the verses again.
[2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[2:128] "Our Lord, make us submitters to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of submitters to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
[2:129] "Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, teach them the scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Almighty, Most Wise."
[16:123] Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham,* the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
From the above we know that the rites of the religion of Islam was given to Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Muhammad was asked to follow the same religion constituting the same rites.Also we learn that the messenger ie Prophet Muhammad was to recite GOD's revelations and teach the Scripture and the wisdom within the scripture and NOT religious rites.No where in the Quran can you see God saying to Prophet Muhammad that he will teach him the rites of Prophet Ibrahim's religion.Nowhere can you see GOD asking him to teach people the religious rites of the religion of Prophet Ibrahim.He was simply commanded to follow Prophet Ibrahim's religion and deliver the Quran.The religion of Abraham must have been existing and preserved otherwise which religion was GOD talking about?.Yes ofcourse its not necessary things remain same and at the same time its not necessary that everything has to be corrupted and not preserved.It seems like its hard for some people to believe that GOD can preserve something like Salat.
The rites ofcourse mustve been corrupted with new additions,deductions etc etc and this may continue to happen.So where do we get the correct salat?The answer is Al Quran.There is no dispute in the Rakahs,no dispute in the times of prayers and no dispute in the actual performance of the Salah.Plus if one seeks additional confirmation on the units ,times etc they can refer the Quran and its mathematical miracle if interested.
For this we have the very high precedent of Salman Al-Farsi, who sent the translation of Al-Fatiha to some Persian converts, with the authorization of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself and they used it until their tongue got familiarized with the Arabic text.
I hope the question is clear now.
Peace!
------------- ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 16 March 2010 at 10:35pm
Salams,
I have a question here about sura fatihah
Ibn Abbas says it was revealed in Mecca, Abu Hurayrah says it was Medina.
Do we know which it is?
MAny thanks
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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