accepting a muslim household
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Forum Name: Family Matter
Forum Description: Discuss Family Issues
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16522
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Topic: accepting a muslim household
Posted By: marie-london
Subject: accepting a muslim household
Date Posted: 19 March 2010 at 8:01am
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I AM A WESTERN WOMAN WITH A ROMAN CHATOLIC FAITH BUT NOT PRATISING OVER THE YEARS, I HAVE BEEN MARRIED TO A EGYPT MUSLIM MAN FOR 13 YEARS AND HAVE TWO CHILDREN MY CHILDREN HAVE BEEN BOUGHT UP IN A WESTERN WAY OF LIFE, UNTIL THE LAST 3/4 YEARS MY HUSBAND DID NOT FOLLOW THIS MUSLIM RELIGION... BUT HAS NOW RETURN TO HIS FAITH ... WE PARTED 18 MONTHS AGO, WHERE HE STARTED A NEW LIFE IN SAUDI, BUT WE NEVER DIVORCED LAST YEAR HE ASKED ME BACK AND WE ARE NOW BACK TOGETHER BETWEEN THE 2 COUNTRIES, HE HAS REQUESTED I LIVE IN SAUDI WITH HIM WHICH I CANNOT DO AND HAS AGREED TO MOVE BACK TO ENGLAND PERMANTELY WITH ME AND THE CHILDREN BUT ON THE CONDITION THAT WE HAVE A MUSLIM HOUSEHOLD AND IN HOPE THAT I BECOME A MUSLIM WIFE. I HAVE ALSO RESPECTED HIS RELIGION AND HAVE BEEN DOING MY BEST AS A WIFE TO PRATICE HIS RELIGION WITH HIM, IE NO PORK IN THE HOUSE, FESTIVE CELEBRATION ETC . NOT SURE WHY HE WOULD WANT TO NOW DECIEDE NOT TO ACCEPT ME AND WHAT A MUSLIM HOUSEHOLD WITH MEAN FOR ME AND THE CHILDREN .. I LOVE MY HUSBAND VERY MUCH AND I DONT WANT TO LOSE HIM BUT I DONT WANT TO AGREE TO SOMETHING I KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT |
Replies:
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 22 March 2010 at 10:10am
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Hi Marie, nice to meet you... First I would ask him what he means by Islamic household...what does he envision? Based on what you did before, how does he see it to be different? Does he want you to wear hijab? Does he want you to do Shahada? There are different areas.. Why he may want you back is obvious, he cares for you and in Islam, marriage is important and you don't leave it lightly. What does he mean by "A Muslim household?" ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 22 March 2010 at 10:27am
| hi, thank u so much for replying i am going out of my mind, things have more on slightly and while i know my husband loves me i am not sure whether this is a relgion thing or whether its more culture. He has gave me choices i live iin saudi or i become and muslim wife and live with muslim rules or he will leave us... he has told my son that how can he love him if he is not muslim and how can he has a son that is not muslim, alll this was ok for him the last 10 years, there are other things like a business in saudi and the strain of living between countries, i recently saw a picture of a girl with my husband and both wearing rings, he said this was taken when we split up 15 months ago and he was going to engage her but his family would not accept him as he was married, and now i get this demands. we are all in tears |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 22 March 2010 at 11:47am
| Does he currently have British citizenship? |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 22 March 2010 at 12:13pm
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thanks for your reply - yes he has held a british passport for many years and we have lead a non muslim life for many years in the uk and europe, and last few years he has been praticising his faith and we have celebrated with him... he has never put pressure on me to change my faith and we have alll had open discussion on what we believe, he has a business in saudi and lives between the two countries, which is not working and the condition of him returning for good would be for me to change my faith..... some times i think this is for culture reasons and to quieten me now a little |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 23 March 2010 at 8:52am
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Dear Marie, No wonder you are confused.. what a HUGE transition.. As a revert I can say it sounds like in a way, your husband went through a "reversion" in that he was not a practicing Muslim and "became" a Muslim- through a conscious decision to practice his religion. And probably as he as aged, he may look at life differently. I can say it would be hard to be married to someone if they were not practicing and I was. If I were like your husband and did not care, it wouldn't be hard. And you should only become a Muslim if you believe in Islam. And again he needs to define what he means by a "Muslim Household." I would also say that he should love his son, because his comes from Allah. His son is a gift from Allah. And Allah has given your son to him to nurture and take care. And never should the son "Become Muslim" in order to be "loved" by his father. And that you until the day someone died, the Prophet (SAWS) was always respectful and interacted with his nonMuslim relatives. He never stopped praying for them. And that your husband, as father should be kind to his children and be an example and a role model of Islam.  That's what I would tell him.. what do you want? ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 23 March 2010 at 9:23am
| hi hayfa, i agreed my husband has found hiself and his faith again and i am very happy for him to be content with hiself, but he still wishing for myself and the children to revert to islam - which i understand is his duty and i dont discuss agree with the main principals of islam, but i am too set in my ways and too old in the tooth i change who i am, i not wish to cover and not to have a glass of wine, my children are very western and dont wish to change things, in order for their father to be with us... i have agreed that we can teach them about islam along with my faith, i have no objectiion for them to pray and to be part of fasting and celebrations, but my husband sounds like he full wants us to convert or live in a muslim society, as he said its either living in saudi or converting to a muslim faith. his new agreement is now i stay as i am and we move to a muslim comunity and put the chidren in muslim school. we are going round in circles and not getting very far .... maybe we are too far apart and finally after 13 years the different in culture has beat us... what can i say when i pray to god for his help. i enjoy your responses, and i thank you for this |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 23 March 2010 at 10:02pm
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Hi Marie, It must be very difficult for you to have all of this come your way. Some of the major trouble is what "born" Muslim expect people outside of the faith or new to the faith to do and to change. In the early days of Islam, everyone was a revert.. so most people understood what it is like to be outside the faith and to enter it. If anyone had said to me "I need to this and this and this and that" I would have run for the hills from them. Plus you add onto the nature of western society of individualism to switch that off is almost impossible after so many years. And you add on to Saudi culture.. one of the more "different" I'd struggle with it to. I am a Muslim and would have a hard time in Saudi Arabia. I am not sure what can be done if he is at the place he is at and you are at the place you are at. Prayers are the best. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 24 March 2010 at 1:56am
| thanks hayfa, for your support, i just wish we could stay as we are, and hope what we are doing is enough, but i fear it is not for my husband and his duties, apart of me wants to walk away cause i love him so very much, but the part wants him to accept us as we are and keep to his comittment to us, but i know it would be a huge strain on his contentment of his self and not sure if islam will allow this or he would allow this. i will wait and pray now and our lives are in gods hands and i will accept my way forward. thank you, |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 24 March 2010 at 6:18am
Hello Marie. How about you give it a try ? Living in Saudi ? for a while ? (suggesting this because you seem to love your husband, and have been married 13yrs, kind of hard to throw all that away). Its going to be a huge cultural change, but people move all the time. Many a times because of career etc. Who knows, you might like it ! If after a month (or a week !) you still feel its not the life for you - you could go back. Don't think you have to move and are permanently leaving your home, treat it like a long vacation !The lifestyle is pretty laidback there. There are many a good schools there with western education (and the kids there are pretty westernized too) so your kids may not neccessarily feel like fishes out of water. You could always (hopefully) go back home during vacations. The major change you'll feel will be public life. . . its not easy moving about as a female. . . and Hijab is compulsory. (which would prolly be tough for you) Do think over it before rejecting the idea completely! Hope everything works out . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
marie-london wrote:Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 March 2010 at 7:01am
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Chrysalis, that is good, And one thing I can say from having lived in Pakistan, hibab is WAY harder in the US then in Pakistan. You blend and fit in... this was even before I became a Muslim. And in Muslim countries its about public vs. private. People cannot do things in public that are acceptable here. But peoples' private lives are often that-private. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 24 March 2010 at 7:47am
| hi chrysalis, thanks for your response while this is very good advice i have considered it and put myself in this picture, i dont feel this would work, i cover when i go to egypt and dont have a problem but to feel the restriction on me as a human being after growing up in london and the strong western beliefs it would not work, i dont feel my husband and i are srong enough as a couple, i am also from a large family and need people i love in my life, along with my own family, we lived in cyprus for 4 years but i felt isolcate on a number of occasions.. i have moved around so much in my life i think i have lived in over 20 properties in my life and i need now need stability and secure and i dont know if i trust my husband anymore, i have seen a picture with him with someone else - who is says was when we split up 15 months ago - but my mind is playing tricks on me and i starting to think all this time he has married again and the two lives he lives i will never know. i have to consider my 10 year old boy and 11 years old daugther (who said she is fed up of everything and her dad is never here anyway, so if we part it would be no different). His mind is like the english weather and i dont think he really knows what he wants, i am starting to think that he knows the living between the two countries is not working personally and finacially and it is his way of justifying his actions to end it.. i really dont want to throw all this way i love him he is my left hand side, but i dont want to feel this unhappy anymore |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 24 March 2010 at 8:20am
I agree ! It is far easier to conform and blend in then stand out. (standing out is not always good) Btw, in Saudi, in some cities like Riyadh (with lot of ex-pats) there are gated communities, in which you basically live 'in your own world'. A lot of foreigners choose to live there because they don't have to follow the strict public rules and can dress lax, because it is considered a private community. Thats what I heard from my friends. Plus focus on the positive aspects! i.e. having a Maid, Chauffeur, large house etc. Lol !  PS: [Adding after seeing your post which appeared later] well, if he seems untrustworthy to you then it would probably not be a good idea to displace yourselves. . . Goodluck anyway! ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 26 March 2010 at 5:57pm
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I agree Marie, living overseas is tough... even for the most hardy.. and especially if you are not 20.. harder to adjust and harder to make friends.. I certainly have less travel desire then 10 years ago. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 27 March 2010 at 5:49pm
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Hi Marie, I am really sorry for your situation, but I will ask you to cool down first of all, and think seriously about the situation. When he married you, he knew that you were not a Muslim but a Christian (ok, not practising but believer), and he is the one who changed. He never showed you that he wanted your children to be Muslim, but after 10 years!!! And the worst thing (at least for me), after the first discussion, he starts looking for another wife!!! Do you think that he is giving you and your children enough value? I mean, I don't think he deserves you. You gave him everything, the most precious gift, the children... and without taking care, he left you all. He has all the right and duties to be a good Muslim, of course, and it's better late than never, but he has no right at all to ask you to be, or to obligate your children after so long. If they wanted to be, it's their right, but not this way, it's not fair. All the doubts you have are serious, Marie, very serious. Myself, I would talk about it with your children, and ask them if they would like to go to Saudi Arabia with their father, and if they want to change your way of life. But first of all, ask yourself what do you really believe. If you think you can be a good Muslim, that's wonderful because all your problems would be finished, but you have to ask yourself. It's not easy at all, and it would be a big change, not bad sure, but a change after all. I would make a family meeting and ask for the children opinion, they have the right to share their thoughts, I think. And I hope you will find the better solution for the family. All the best Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 28 March 2010 at 11:40am
| thanks patricia, your advice is good and i am starting to feel angry now, coz i have tried all ways to keep us togehter against the odds, and yes i really feel under valued and not loved un-conditionally, my husband has changed and instead of being honest with his self and me, i feel and children and i are being used as a escape goat... i have asked my children and their is just too much water under the bridge, my 11 daughter word was its ok we dont see that much daddy any way so it wont be no different, this says it all, i will give up now, even though i am old fashion and when you marry you marry for better for worse. thank you vey much for your kind word |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 March 2010 at 4:20pm
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Pati: do you think its wrong for the husband to ask? Why not? Its like if you change you can ask others to adjust and its their decision to accept or refuse. And really better the husband to ask and to try and see if it will work then to just give up.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 29 March 2010 at 6:05am
| YEAH I THINK THAT FINE ASK THE QUESTION, BUT I SUPPOSE THE RESPONSE COMES DOWN TO RESPECTING THAT PERSON AS WELL, AND YES MY HUSBAND HAS ASKED AND I HAVE SAID ALL VERY GOOD REASONS FOR US NOT TO BECOME MUSLIM BUT HAVE ALSO SUGGESTED COMPRIMISES... BUT WITH MY HUSBAND ITS ALL OR NOTHING ... WE HAVE NOW APARTED BUT THINGS ARE GETTING VERY NASTY ... HE HAS SAID HE WANTS TO COME BACK TO SPEAK WITH HIS CHILDREN ... TO EXPLAIN TO THEM WHY HE CANT LOVE THEM AND THEY CANT HAVE HIS NAME IF THEY ARE NOT MUSLIM .... I AFFRAID FOR US, AND THEY ARE EMOTIONALLY UPSET ENOUGHT WITHOUT THEIR FATER CONFUSING THEM AND EMOTIONALLY BLACK MAILING THEM, I HAVE MESSAGE HIM ON HIS GOOD SIDE TO ASK NOT TO DO THIS AND RE - LOOK AT HIS WAY FORWARD WITH THEM... I AFRAID IT DOES MAKE THE MUSLIM RELIGION LOOK GOOD. I AM SCARED OF HIS STATE OF MIND |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 29 March 2010 at 12:12pm
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Hi Marie,
First of all, you have to relax yourself. I know it's easy to say, but not that much to do.
You have to face the new environment of your family: your husband is now Muslim, so you have to look for the advise you need there. If he is a real Muslim, he is NOT ALLOWED to abandon his family. Maybe he can ask for divorce, but if he is doing so, ask him to go to an Iman and talk about your situation.
But please, don't be afraid from the Islam, because there is nothing bad there, just a different (actually, not that much different) religion. And after what your husband told you, he is not a real Muslim.
He has his right to correct his way of living, and to ask you to do so, but he has no right to impose you and your children whatever he wants. His duty is with you, with his family, because he is the one who, long time back, chose you as his wife, a Christian wife, and chose to get children from you. You didn't do anything wrong, and if he is now, after I dont' know how many years, guilty because of that, it's his responsibility to correct the situation, but this is the life, and you are now, and will always be the mother of his children.
You have to be strong to face all this, but really, I would start looking for an Iman (I don't know if you know any Muslim who can assesorate you on that, because it's important to talk to a good one, cause some of them are totaly against mixed marriage and most probably will not support you expect in case you become Muslim), and explaining him the situation you and your children are facing. But do it with patience and with faith, because you are not alone dear, you have your children with you, and if their father wants to leave them, he will be the loser!! Don't forget it, you have the prize with you.
Big hugs and keep us updated, please! Whatever I can do, don't hesitate to ask me
 Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 29 March 2010 at 12:28pm
Hi Hayfa,
I make the difference between asking for something, and a simple blackmail, and what her husband is doing is not "to ask" for something.
Sure it's his right to ask his wife to be a Muslim, but he has no right to tell her "you become Muslim, or I will leave you and your children". That's the worst thing ever!!
And for me, the key of the story is that after the first problem in their relation, he already started looking for another wife, a Muslim wife... come on!!! He is a cheater, and I know what I am talking about because I know thousand stories in the same line of Marie's story.
Really, sometimes I would like to star a war against the relations between Christian women and Muslim men. They get whatever they want from us, with nice words, with lot of details and getting all our confidence, and sooner or later they distroy our lives in one way or another. I start being tired of this thousand of situations where a Muslim who has never been a good Muslim, suddenly discovers that he is a Muslim and wants ... well, I don't know what they want, but they forget that they already made their life with a woman who gave them everything. So many lives distroyed, so many women alone with children because their husband or boyfriends suddenly remembered that he was Muslim. And it seems it's free.
I cannot understand their behaviour, sorry. It's so difficult for me to understand how is it possible that a man who was supposed to love you, the father of your children, suddenly "feels" that if you don't "change your God", he will stop loving you and your children... really, maybe there is someone here who can explain it to me, myself I cannot. And I am another victim, Hayfa. I was cool during the time my ex was in Spain. We were living together, everything was perfect. He was Muslim and I did the impossible to help him to improve as Muslim. But from beginning, since he met me, he knew I was Christian, and he was the one looking for me, the one who made me fall in love with him. But see, after 3 years, after knowing all my family and all that, suddenly he remembered he was from an Arabic country where there are Muslim women, and he came back home to marry one of them. But I should not be worried, because he "loves me" more and more everyday... Well, better to sut up, because I am talking too much. But I hope the point is clear here.
We are victims, Hayfa. But at least, I didn't get children.
Regards
Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 29 March 2010 at 2:12pm
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thanks everyone for your comments on this subject, i feel very supported in this difficult time. I do agree with you pati i need to calm down a little but is difficult when each day brings something different. I am starting to think along the lines of your last message and after 13 years together i will never be able to complete my husband, cause it has really been a struggle in our marriage, and i dont even feel its the religion that the biggest problem its the culture differences and possibly his regret that he should of married someone from his own culture (but 13 years is a good run) and i am tired of fighting against the odds, i think these impossible demands from him is to force my hand to divorce him. i have not asked him to give his religon up for us and i am only too happy to support him. i also feel saudi arbia has played a huge role in this, the life style and the influence of the expectation of a wife of a muslim man. thanks again .... starting to feel more positive in my way forward. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 March 2010 at 7:41pm
I haven't read this whole discussion and don't have time tonight, but one comment really leaped off the page for me, and I feel like I have to speak up:
Really? Are you sure she could go back? I hear stories all the time about women being taken by their husbands to live in Saudi Arabia and discovering that they are virtually held prisoner there.
I don't want to debate this because I don't know enough about it and haven't time anyway. But I urge you to be very cautious about going to Saudi Arabia and just assuming that you can leave the country any time you want, without your husband's consent. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 30 March 2010 at 10:05am
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Pati, I think they were already separated to a degree.. so if he says I need a "Muslim" wife or live as a Muslim. She can either comply or not. The kids are with her. She can say, either you live as a "westerner" or you don't get the kids. Either way it can be "blackmail" or basically a cultural disagreement. Marie: you are right. he probably changes, whereas it was a challenge before, it may be impossible for the marriage to work. It IS sad, but could be alot worse. Ron: I agree. Not only for Saudi Arabia for any foreigner in another country, your rights are limited. The biggest kidnapping of kids is by one parent or another and they go to another country and often its impossible to get them out. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 7:25am
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Salam, may allah show the right way to all of us. I am from saudi and the information which ron gave that woman has little right is not true,speacially a british women is immpossible for someone to harm them as the british embassy is very strong to protect their citzen. If u really love him than support him,Isalm is the fastest growing relegion try to learn,unless a woman does not surrender she cannot win a mans heart,give it a try,if u give up than it shows that you luv ur life style more than your husband,and remember nothing in this world can give u happiness except the luv of husband and above the love of ur almighty. try findout which is the true relegion,believe me u will feel that islam is really a way of life and all other way is an illusion.
he is facing a big guilt in his heart as his wife is not a muslim and above this his children,allah will never forgive him if his children turn to another relgion because she chose a nonmuslim mother for them.
its hard to preach on this site what islam is,martah,haifa connect to the great ladies who chose islam the way of their life,there are many,go forum new muslims.ur husband loves u and ur kids thats he is back.this not a sign of taking divorce,he is free to marry second but he is trying to convince u only.
u might feel i m forcing u to be a muslim but that is not true finally its ur heart which will decide,
i pity your husband state of mind,he must be in a great pressure,support him in this difficult time.
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Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 7:27am
| there are so many british and american woman married to saudi's and now they are one of the happiest muslim woman speaking fluent arabi like arabs.saudi arabia is the safest place for woman in this world |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 10:12am
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Hayfa,
I agree, its the kidnapping of kids that would concern me the most. It happens more than we care to admit. I watched a great movie with Sally Field called 'NOt Without My Daughter'. Well worth watching if you get the time, lol. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 5:50pm
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Here is the official advice from the Government of Canada regarding women travelling to Saudi Arabia: "... women, including Canadian women married to Saudi men, unmarried Canadian daughters of Saudi fathers, and children of Saudi fathers, including Canadian sons under the age of 21, need the permission of the Saudi male head of the household to leave the country. Furthermore, it should be noted that married women, no matter their husband�s citizenship, require their husband's permission to leave the country, while all unmarried women, regardless of age, and unmarried men under the age of 21, require the permission of their father or male guardian to leave the country, irrespective of the father's or guardian�s citizenship.
A Saudi man who wishes to marry a foreign woman is required by law to seek the permission of Saudi authorities. He must also sign a document that gives irrevocable permission to his foreign wife and the children born of their union to travel in and out of the country without restrictions. This law has been in effect since February 20, 2008, and is not retroactive. Nevertheless, the foreign spouse and their children may still have difficulty leaving Saudi Arabia as they please. Also, if a couple consisting of a foreigner and a Saudi living in Saudi Arabia divorce, the foreign parent cannot under any circumstances leave the country with the children born of their union even if he or she is granted custody rights."
Assuming she can even get to an embassy. Consider the plight of Nazia Quazi, a 24-year-old citizen of Canada and India who was trapped in Saudi Arabia by her father: "Since then, Nazia said, she has sought various ways out of Saudi Arabia. Last October, Nazia applied for, and received, an emergency certificate from the Indian Embassy, but was told she still needed an exit visa to leave -- an exit visa that her father, or "guardian," would have to sign for. The Canadian embassy in Riyadh recently issued Nazia a temporary passport. But once again, in Saudi Arabia, a valid passport is not sufficient to allow a woman to leave the country.
Representatives from the Canadian Embassy, the Indian Embassy, and the Saudi Passport Office all agree - Nazia needs her father's permission to leave the country. It doesn't matter that she's an adult with a degree in computer science from the University of Ottawa. What matters in Saudi Arabia is that she's a woman. Human Rights Watch spoke with university scholars who not only needed permission to attend school, but who weren't allowed off college grounds unless they were picked up by a guardian or a designated driver (women in Saudi Arabia aren't permitted to drive). We interviewed a woman whose sister needed approval to have an IV inserted. A mother in Saudi Arabia can't open up a bank account for her child, enroll her children in school, or travel with her children without express permission. And if a woman's guardian becomes physically violent with her? It will be nearly impossible to have him removed as guardian. Besides, how can a woman file a domestic violence report - a woman needs permission to file a criminal complaint at the police station. To help Nazia return to Canada, Human Rights Watch contacted the Saudi Human Rights Commission and asked it to intervene. Finally, at the request of the Canadian Embassy, it took up her case - but as of recently, it has failed to develop a strategy for her release."
Here's a crazy thought: if he loves her, why didn't he support her? He was the one who ran off to Saudi Arabia and "started a new life". He is the one who is still refusing to accept her as she is -- as she was when he married her. She has respected his religion, but has he respected hers? Is there truly "no compulsion in religion"?
Sorry, but I just don't buy it. He doesn't want love, he wants ownership. Which he can get, in Saudi Arabia. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 10:32pm
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Dear Ron, you will not realise un less u come to saudi,if enter a mall you will feel woman are just enjoying and their husbands are at their service,there are cases but not as you mentioned,i have not heard of a single kidnapping case of parent kidnapping,laws are there which not easy to understand by expat but no country is perfect,western countries despite their so called declaration that provides security to woman has the higest rate of rapes murders and so many bad things,there are so many cases i heard in u.s where the husband confines his wife to the house and that too without food. no nation is perfect,and as far as this lady is concerned,both love each other and if the trust is lost to that extent than i dont think she loves his husband,living with him for so many years she is the best person to decide the level of trust,by giving examples we will only fill her mind with satanic whisperings.believe me she will repent if she let this guy go.
If patti had a bad experience that does not mean it will be applicable to all such couples,i know many american woman who has accepted the saudi culture and they are really very happy.
if she is afarid so he can come on job visa,british get good jobs here.
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Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 1:37am
| hi all it is cetainly becoming interesting all the views, but i have decided along with my two children that we will be staying in england, i would not like to live in the saudi society and even though i agree with the 5 pillars of islam i do not agree with many rules around islam and what i am most finding difficult and somewhat confusing is the whether some of the things my husband wants like no alochol in the house and for me to go out and drink if i wish, if we was to go for dinner i would not be allowed to order a glass of wine but if went out with company then it would be ok, he does not want a christmas tree in the house the children have been brought up in this way and how recently i find him on dating site stating he has never been married and is looking for a good muslim wife from saudi or egypt which i have no knowledge that he wanted this .... please someone put me straight and tell me that this is not the muslim religion and is more culture and the person he is .... i can scared coz the man i thought i knew after 14 years i feel is a total stranger now, i cant talk to him anymore |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 8:11am
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Hello sister, hope you I could explain you,well think ten times and decide,there is always a way out,no men or women are perfect. if u accept islam it will be good in your interest but unfortunately u dont have good people arround to show islamic values,i have seen mostly woman follow the relegion of their husband,so its no harm if you try to learn or even pretend.but if u have no luv for him then wot do i say,be with him for childrens sake. hope my words can save your marraige.
kadarallahu wa masha alaa
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Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 12:28pm
I can ensure you that Islam is a beautiful religion, but there are not more than few hundreds of straight muslims (I am afraid from telling this in this forum, in a Muslim house, but that's something I can see everytime I come to the Mosque).
What your husband is doing has nothing to do with the believes, with the Islam. His duties are with his wife and children, that means with you all.
You are not guilty, it's only a cultural thing, you were not wrong, and even if you become a perfect Muslim wife, it would never be enough for him, be sure. Just face him and tell him your decision.
You have so many rights, and you are a grown woman, a experienced mother... you deserve more than what he is offering you. Just tell him to choose, and in case he is choosing you, try to make the family life as much smooth as possible, but in case he is not choosing you... just go ahead with your children, and never forget that you are not alone.
Dear, big hugs and don't think this is Islam, those are just st**id wrongly called "muslim" men who are losing their heads and distroying some lives in between.
Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 10:04pm
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Hello Patti,
I am muslim and i do agree that islam is the best relegion and unfortunitely the people you often encounter give wrong message of islam by their act or behaviour.
i was just saying that if the relegion is good than its no harm in fact on the day of judgement you will be judged according to your belief.i know a relegion cannot be forced it has to come from your heart.i was just concerened of the children and about this lady also its not that easy to have someone good,so why not give this one a try.
Regards
Faisal
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Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 11:30pm
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HELLO PATTI
but there are not more than few hundreds of straight muslims
THIS IS NOT A GOOD COMMENT,I AGREE THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY BUT NOT AS LES AS FEW HUNDREDS OUT OF BILLIONS MUSLIM.THIS IS AN EXTRA EXAGERATED FIGURE.
IF A PERSON IS MUSLIM THAT DOES NOT MEAN SHAITAN WILL LEAVE HIM ALONE,AND THERE ARE SO MANY BAD THINGS CHRISTIANS AND OTHER COMMUNITY DOES WHY DONT PEOPLE COMMENT ON THAT,THE RAPES ON WOMAN IN U.S THEY 98 PERCENT ARE CHRISTIAN OR NONMUSLIM
WOT WUD SAY TO DAT.
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Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 2:55pm
I know that it was going to hurt, but I am talking as a woman who met already lot of Muslim, and I know lot of situations of Muslim.
The pornography, chatting with women with sexual interest, cheating their wives, going with prostitutes, pre-marriage relations....
It's something normal not only in western countries, but all over the world. I hate it, I don't like it and I hate the fact that you cannot talk free to any man because he may be looking for something.
Personally, I know lot of friends working in muslim countries: Kuwait, Emirates, Bahrein, Oman, etc... and they all say that they are receiving all kind of "offers" from local people. Me, myself, I faced this situation in Emirates, so... please, just look around.
I am talking from the point of view of a woman. The problem is that in your culture, men are not talking about "their biggest sins", so you have no idea about the quantity of men who are sinners. But just pay attention and you will see that there are not much MUSLIMS.
Actually, I met a guy, very religious, 4 years back. He was not looking to any man, making his 5 prayers. He is doing pilgrimage almost everytwo years... really, I loved his way and felt safe with him.
I met him back few months ago, and... well, he found me through internet, and I will just say that I am not safe with him. He is having all kind of contacts "too much opened", and you can see them almost nude...
Hope you understand me now. I think that most of Muslim men are lost in this time, and I hope they will find themselves.
Regards
Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 10:35pm
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Hello Patti Goodmorning
I agree with what you said,but i think these people who are bad would have been the same if they were believing in some other relegion,
though you dont mean to say that but your pointing out on a community shows that because he believe in this relegion he is like that.
good and bad people are every where,and rules of being good to others and lead a good life exist in other relegion too but still people do it.
as far as getting offers from men in arab countries is very natural cause there are good number of white woman who are easyly available,and the english movies which we see in which woman are displayed as a sex object creates just one picture in our mind,we think all are available.
There is one hadith from our profet Mohammed s.a.w :there will be a time when you will have no weight,(this means you will have no power and your voice will not be heard anywhere)on this one comapnion asked we will be so less at time,profet answered no u will be as many as the white layer on the sea but because of your deeds you will be nowhere.
so i pray that muslims come to the right path and regain the faith of all the community in them and belive in Allah and his commandments.Ameen
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 4:33pm
No doubt there are good and bad people everywhere, but no other religion enables mistreatment of women, or subjugates them to men, like Islam. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 5:48pm
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Hey Ron, You tell that to all the women who left Christianity long, long time ago. Trust me, I have no love for Christian Churches. The problem is most people there don't even know their religion. Cause they'd leave like most of us did. There is no where that says a man is allowed to mis-treat me. No where in the Quran. Sorry you don't know hat you are talking about. Never once did the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) hit or hard a woman. Heck we could fight in battle along side him (PBUH). There are TONS of Muslim men who treat their wives way better than men in the west. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 11:07pm
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Hi again, I am sorry because I was talking about a different thing, not about the way that a husband treats his wife.
This is another human illness that we have to face in all religions and all over the world. For instance, in my country, only in the last month, 40 women were killed by their husbands or couples. For me, this is something unnacceptable and a major social problem that we all should avoid by calling the police after hearing the minimum problem in our neighbours houses.
But I was talking about a different thing.
fais,
I didn't say that in west countries, men are not "dirty", but believe me, they may try one time, but in case they see the woman is not interested, they will stop, because we have legal rules that punnish the harassment and may send them to the jail.
Regarding what you said about the movies and the image they give about wester women, that's another problem. Do you think that in the west, we are the whole time looking for men or for women to keep on relations??? No way. We have families, works, we study, we travel, we enjoy our time. The only difference is that you may go outside with any guy you like, and whatever it happens is your responsibility, but we are not doing with each guy. Some muslim men are treating us like simple prostitutes, and I am tired of that.
I just came from Algeria. I went there for work matters, and took the chance to stay a whole week with a colleague (girl). I really got scared from the people there: everytime telling us bad things, really bad things, stopping us on the street to ask about "the price of the service", even stopping the cars on the street to ask us to go with them... the worst was when we contracted a driver who was touching me!!! Until I told him I was married with a muslim man who was working in an arabic country... that was the secret to stop it, and really worked. I never in my life felt this way.
I have friends who worked in Kuwait, and were continiously harassed by men around their flats. Actually, one of them was sent back to Spain and need the help of a psycologist, because a crazy man was always following her, asking her for marriage, and finally told her that or she was marrying him or he would kill her... can you believe?? Without even saying hello to him, he is having all that ideas in his head.
Regarding the treatment of the muslim men with their wives, I cannot say it's bad, because I know it and you are like "the queen". The problem is only that you are not always the only queen, and I cannot accept that.
I prefer a western man, because after my experience with muslims and the value they give to real love, I don't want to take any other risk again. Love is nothing for you, and real love is not coming with the time, as i heard thousand times.
Regards ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 4:44am
I'm not sure this is the appropriate place to get into a debate about the treatment of women in Islam. Let just point you to the Quran 4:34, which specifically advises husbands to beat their wives. I don't think you'll find a similar instruction in any other holy scripture. I believe that there is also a hadith in which Muhammad says something to the effect that in heaven no man will be asked why he beat his wife.
I only joined this discussion because I saw someone advising a woman to accompany her newly-radicalized Muslim husband to Saudi Arabia on the questionable assumption that she could always leave if she didn't like it. Saudi Arabia has one of the worst records of denying basic human rights to women, and it's no coincidence that their legal system is based on sharia. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 10:12am
Somebody needs to pass on this information to the poor women who keep converting to Islam ! . . . Wait . . . isn't this the information the media gives them all the time ? Yet it doesn't effect their numbers !?! wow.
From Times Online
May 29, 2010
Young. British. Female. Muslim.At the London Central Mosque in Regent�s Park, women account for roughly two thirds of the �New Muslims� who make their official declarations of faith there � and most of them are under the age of 30.Conversion statistics are frustratingly patchy, but at the time of the 2001 Census, there were at least 30,000 British Muslim converts in the UK. According to Kevin Brice, of the Centre for Migration Policy Research, Swansea University, this number may now be closer to 50,000 � and the majority are women. �Basic analysis shows that increasing numbers of young, university-educated women in their twenties and thirties are converting to Islam,� confirms Brice. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7135026.ece - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7135026.ece------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 10:44am
| i do believe that islam does not treat women fair, and a man in islam is taking another wife is only an excuse to have an affair or to take a mistress... in any religion and way in society it is still a man world, i too have read in quran that a man is allowed to beat his wife under some circustances but must be careful how he does it .... it makes me sick, very rare in most soceities you dont find the women beating the husband, i also agree with pati that western men are in for the long haul and because of choice you hope to find real love and muslim men its more of a status and obligation (correct me if i am wrong) |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 11:05am
You are entitled to your opinion Marie, however a lot of times the experiences we have had can effect the way we perceive things. Your husband's behavior, and him associating it with Islam and "finding his faith" might have some contribution towards how you feel. I wouldn't blame you. Probably a lot of non-Muslim women who have been in relationships with Muslim men feel this way. Unfortunately this is because the Muslim men they are in a relationship with are not the "best pick" of the lot - Islamically speaking (or otherwise). Often times the women are sincere and genuine and actually love the man - but the man is just in it for material reasons, fun, money, green-card etc. Just curious, where did you first meet your husband ? Many women will meet such men at Pubs or parties . . . while it is perfectly acceptable behavior in a nonmuslim society, (where good non-muslim men could be found) - you will never find a good Muslim husband in such places. Chances are, if he is willing to date you, chase you, flirtatious advances, sleep with you, is drinking - then he is not a good Muslim man to start with . . . . so the chances of it working out are slim.  . It will not work out because he is not a good man and so is not likely to give you the respect you deserve. This is why majority of times, the nonmuslim women find out there "Muslim" boyfriend or husband was a bad egg . . . .This doesn't mean all are like that - Or Islam is like that !!! The best advise is for non-muslim women to stick to non-muslim men - because you can read him better, because you know the culture and background he's from. You could probably tell if he was a bad-egg. He doesn't have any ulterior motives . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 1:29pm
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i think there is alot of truth in what you said about meeting me willing to party drink and sleep with me outside marriage should of indicated to be that he was not a good muslim man, (i was very naive at the time) and what you say about sticking to own culture because can read him better and know our culture there may be some substance in this coz i known him for 15 years and i am good judge of charater and what scares me so much about all this how i could of got it so wrong and how made me doubt my whole journey with him. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 3:44pm
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Not that it would make any difference. It's been widely known for decades that smoking is bad for you too, but young women in particular are taking up the habit by the millions. The sad fact is that most people (men and women) do not make rational choices. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 12:44am
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hello Ron
I feel you are here to mis inform people about islam,dont say anything without full information,the sentence 'I think' shows you heard from somewhere that it is written in quran and hadith that it is allowed to beat your wife.
No use but still a try to clarify this.
Mohammed s.a.w said (sorry not the eaxct words)if your wife is in to something bad do not leave her at first intance,there 3 steps.
Advise her with love
if she does not listen still
turn your back and do not talk to her
still not
hit her with a miswak (a little Root stick used to brush teeth) on her shoulder very lightly
and at last stage you may divorce her.
Ron i know you will find something bad in this also so no use to explain or argue further.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 6:33am
Reference please? Is this an authentic hadith? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 7:05am
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Hello Ron, This is an authentic hadith,now i dont know wots your intention now.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 12:19pm
Really? From which collection, and what does the hadith actually say? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 4:30pm
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Reference please? Is this an authentic hadith?
Really? From which collection, and what does the hadith actually say?
Where was your keen understanding of hadith methodology with the "hadith" you quoted? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 5:09pm
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http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2142 - Abu Dawud (2142) ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 5:38pm
| What is the classification of the hadith? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 6:14pm
You're a Muslim, abuayisha -- you tell me. As far as I'm concerned all ahadith are of dubious authenticity. I only mentioned it because it corroborates the Quran 4:34. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 9:16pm
I had no intention to engage you here but anyways I have one question how many quotes you would like from the OT & NT about how a woman could badly be treated? 10,20,40,80 100. Just tell me! And you will not be disappointed!You have really opened your big mouth like the ACT Christian mob that came last night at school districts meeting to demand out of context anti Islam supplement be added kids curriculum but were told NO to Islamophobes cuz opinions don't make facts! There are thousands of reborn individuals who were mislead by the lure of the old colonials debauchery and good times then finally the reality sinks in that every thing that glitters is not gold! Of course most people don't make rational choices then they are the ones to either correct the mistakes or live with the choices! That is the way to err is human and forgiveness is divine that you don't believe... but every chance you get to stab Islam you don't let go! Yes the Muslims are struggling out of physical and mental bondage... it was the fault of the forefathers who became too lax and ceased practicing Islam in totality and got run over by the barbarians and then colonized! This is a normal behavior of the people raised in such environment then it is fault of both the masters and slaves and the generational behavior takes its toll and finally settles down to a much practical pattens for the nations! The birth of Obama and his election speaks volumes about it! In score or two years the Chinese nation who toiled to build railroads and do the laundry for the Americans will be telling Americans how to live their lives! As matter of fact they already are! And how a female embryo in China was treated I don't need to tell you! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 9:27pm
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Ron, That is a very odd page.. the reason being is that the whole section lists very little in explanation. I am looking at my Hadith collection and this is not to be found. In addition, they don't give ANY explanation of the circumstances, if this is a strong hadith. And frankly translations tend to be really terrible. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 9:38pm
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Ron: If your wife tells you that she would sleep with someone else while you are gone on a trip... Or you found out about it...do I expect you to buy her flowers  ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 9:45pm
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Marie, i tend to think that it really is relative family to family just like everywhere. If you have a good family, most grow up well. Everything, everything can be twisted. For instance be generous, listening and kind are good traits, but one can also be taken advantage of as well as to a learned helplessness. Just like most women do appreciate a "strong" man, a leader etc. And yet that can go too far as well. I know many Muslim men who often defer to their wives. They are kind, warm and generous. Their model was the Prophet (SAWS) who never yelled, hit or harmed innocent people. They also probably had that model at home. Islam is quite fascinating to me in that there is so, so much more going on. And one aspect is that women should avoid "challenging" a man's "manhood" for lack of a better term. And we teach, a similar concept with self-defense. If you are with a certain type of man, or in a certain type of self-defense scenario it can be far worse for one to "challenge" that person. We are not in a "perfect" world. All people are weak. Some people have tempers. Yes they should control it, and sometimes they won't. They error. And in those cases, we should not push the buttons. Because the harm will come to me. Men in the Quran and the Hadith are told to be kind to their wives. And the best of men are those who are the best to their wives. Alot of men do that. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 24 July 2010 at 11:14pm
Really? So, what was this all about? A search for the truth or fun and games? Or maybe just an attempt at smearing our faith.
Originally posted by Ron Webb
Reference please? Is this an authentic hadith?
Originally posted by Ron Webb Really? From which collection, and what does the hadith actually say? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 7:06am
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It's a search for the truth, specifically the truth of fais's claim that Muhammad said that men should use a miswak to beat their wives. I am confident that there is no such hadith. It is an invention by Muslim apologists. I have more than a thousand posts on this forum. I have debated a great many issues with you and many other regulars. I am disappointed that after all this time you would accuse me of "an attempt at smearing our faith". I am simply judging your faith by its own standards. The Quran advises men to beat their wives, and several hadith show that Muhammad at least permitted it. Muhammad himself struck Aisha hard enough to cause pain (see http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127 - Sahih Muslim, 4:2127 ). You can make what you will of that, but it is the truth. It is not a "smear". ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 7:53am
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Hello Ron
The hadith which i mention is Authentic,I knew you gonna comeup with somthing new when u asked about the authenticity.
you are not considering the fact that in islam it is advised to the man to give the woman so many chances even though she is in to something bad.
A question RON: how many of these steps you will follow as a spiritual jew or christian after you find your wife into adultery.
Please answer this or i will consider you a coward and a man of low calibre.
I have just one answer to you
Lakum dinukum walyadeen
Your faith with you,and mine with
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 8:23am
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Fais, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are merely mistaken. Please don't pursue this unless you can come up with some evidence that the hadith is genuine.
The steps that I would follow would be to have a serious talk with my wife, and try to understand what is wrong with our marriage. If she truly wishes to be with another man instead of me then we would arrange for a (hopefully amicable) divorce. That would be the plan, anyway. I am no saint, and may say and do some things that I would not be proud of later, but I can guarantee you that I would never, under any circumstances, hit her.
IMHO any man who would beat his wife is a coward and a man of low calibre. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 8:37am
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Hello Ron First of all when i say hitting i mean hitting so lightly as if she will not feel anything.now u take it how u want to.
second: we are not talking about a woman who is declaring that she wants to be with another man,or she want a divorce.
here we talking about a woman who want to be in adultery and yet want to reap the benefits of her husband's house and expenses given by him.
you are protraying your self in such a way as if you are the scholar of hadith science by just mentioning one web site again again,let me tell you there are so many false webite made by jews and christians and also shias which gives a wrong image of islam.
You taking advantage of the fact that we are not scholars and have not read many hadith.i have seen the debates of ahmed deedath and christian preist,believe me they dont find a single point valid against islam when they talk in front of knowledgeable scholars.
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 6:56pm
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"Muhammad himself struck Aisha hard enough to cause pain"
Struck or hit is not an appropriate translation of the word used in this hadith - in the sense of beating/hitting/ or spousal abuse of his wife. The Prophet of Allah never did this, and Muslims are well advised to follow his sunnah in this respect. Overall the treatment of women worldwide - including Muslim countries is shameful. Here in America spousal abuse happens every 7 seconds!
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 7:19pm
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I'll take your word for it, abuayisha. What is a better translation, in your opinion? What did Muhammad do to her chest that caused pain? Or is the word "pain" also a mistranslation? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 25 July 2010 at 9:12pm
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Well Ron, "pain" here is not the issue, but having an understanding that spousal abuse is not a directive from our faith, although granted many women are still mistreated, and if, as stated in an authentic hadith, a woman who mistreated a cat is punished by God; surely those who abuse and mistreat their wives will also be held accountable. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 26 July 2010 at 9:35am
Are you enough of a scholar on Islam to know which texts/information/explanations fall under the category of "Inventions by Muslim Apologists" ? How do you know ?
Well Ron, while you seem to imply that you are here to understand, and "search for truth" - sometimes it seems that you are debating for the sake of debating. Now and then you manage to slip in a pretty strong comment about Islam . . . which doesn't go along with your general mantra. And this comment of yours was a rather strong allegation : "No doubt there are good and bad people everywhere, but no other religion enables mistreatment of women, or subjugates them to men, like Islam." You say "no doubt there are good and bad people everywhere" . . . YET immediately point a finger at Islam ?!?! (and thus Muslims). Also - "no other religion enables....like Islam" ! Wow, have you actually looked at other religions ? Throw in all the controversial stuff you can find and Islam still easily surpasses all of them ! in terms of treatment of women.
No you are not . . . you usually judge our faith by your standards or the common western ones.
There is no harm in having a genuine discussion, and discussing the "truth". But posting a statement like that in a thread where "wife-beating" or "domestic violence" wasn't even an issue, nor were we discussing treatment of women in Islam - does come under the category of a "smear". We were discussing the lady's specific circumstances . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 26 July 2010 at 9:55am
Interesting points Sis. I agree, there is more to Islamic injunctions than what meets the eye. Sometimes when I dwell and read about certain things, I will suddenly have a "lightbulb moment" i.e. things seem to appear in a whole new light. You look at angles you never saw before . . . and here you were thinking you knew everything there was to know about an issue. I have realised that you cannot "know" everything about Islam, or understand everything at once . . . its a process and a journey. You learn as you go along, it never ends ! And you can never have a "perfect understanding" or "perfect answer" or "perfect explanation". Like with Polygyny for example - on first glance it may seem appalling, but then as you read into it, and dwell - it makes perfect sense. Also, when you said "there is so much more going on" - it reminded me, that sometimes we get fixated on one particular hadith, or ayah, and forget the bigger picture. Whereas Islam is holistic ! We cannot pick on one verse or hadith and attempt to give explanations or conclusions. What about all the other ahadith and verses that supplement and complement it ??? So people will look at one Qur'anic verse and use it as an example of "wife-beating" . . . . yet forget the hundreds of other ahadith and verses that talk about gentleness to women. And when scholars explain such issues in light of all the other ahadith such as the one with the miswaak, etc etc, they are apologists !?! Strangely, when you tell some people that what they think is not the case and its actually the opposite, it turns them off. Its like they just found out the tooth-fairy doesn't exist or Santa isn't real. Seems like the only way some non-Muslims will be happy or satisfied is to hear a Muslim say: "I am a muslim, and a wife-beater, because Islam says so" . . . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 July 2010 at 6:32pm
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I didn't say I know. I said I am confident, which is the best I can say about a negative claim (the non-existence of something). If you want to prove otherwise, just cite a credible reference. But until someone does, I see no reason to believe that this apocryphal hadith actually exists.
No, not "and thus Muslims". Most Muslims, like most Christians and most other faiths, manage to be good people despite their religions. That was my point.
If marie-london had chosen to accompany her husband to Saudi Arabia, wife-beating could very well have been an issue. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 12:31am
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Ron I think you are cunning as fox, hiding behind the humanism facade to keep throwing darts against the Islamic elements vis a vis other Euro religions! You make an assumption like the way you made "Muhammad God's partner" thread...Now you injected this wife beating which happens but in your mind it does more so amongst Muslims...Again you assumed if marie had gone to Saudi wife beating could very well be issue...That tells me you are really having fun stabbing any opportunity is available to you! Hence all of us here consider you as a member of Judeo Christian block while responding cuz you have lost the credibility by your underhanded actions! I am still waiting for the response to the previous posts! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 1:20am
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 1:43am
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Dear Brother sign Reader Just leave this guy alone,he is acting as if he is master in sience of hadith,there are so many things to learn of hadith and this can be learned only by a person who is seeking truth with an unbiased mind. He is like those christian missioneries working in south part of india,they could not harm islam directly so they made different group where muslim boys studying in convent schools are given training that all relegion is useless just talk to god in the night.do not follow any rule just be a humanist and follow god without relegion.and beleive me brother they were able to misguide few muslim boys,i met such boys in saudi arabia working with me.
Ron:
I wanna understand one thing,the hadith about hitting with a miswak is good or bad according to you?cause your question asking authenticity of the hadith i mentioned shows that you accept that kind of behviour from a man who is betrayed by his wife.
tell me Ron:
what do you mean by A Hadith and how it is recorded,let me know how u understand islam.what is your parametre,just a few websites or you have a collection of sahih bukhari,sahih muslim,Abdawood,and tirmidhi.
tell me who are these people.
Just dont do quack quack like a duck repeating samething what you want.
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 5:00am
As if you would actually believe it ?
Well, when you talk about "Good & Bad people" and then talk about Islam, you are bringing in Muslims. Islam is not a "person", If your point was that Muslims can be good people despite religion. . . then there was no need to bring in Islam at all. Unless you are equating Islam with its people.
Really ? So if she had lived with him in her own country, wife-beating would not be possible ? Moving to Saudi Arabia automatically makes wife-beating a possibility ? Wife-Beating can take place anywhere, even in non-Muslim countries. And men get away with it . . . . moving to Saudia Arabia does not increase the chances of wife-beating. If he is a good man, he will remain so in Saudia Arabia as well. And if he is a bad man, he can very well beat up his wife in the UK or USA. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 7:40am
| The "Bush doctrine" of pre-emptive self-defence against wife-beating. |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 8:07am
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Hello
The discussion started with a woman who does not want to join her husband in saudi arabia to wife beating because of just one fanatic christian who claims to be humanist.
I have been married to a saudi culture woman so i know what a beautifull life they live with all their rights protected by the goverment.people sitting on the other side of the world cannot comment on the freedom of woman in islamic coutries,Muslim women are much better than in west where the woman are asked to earn for their household and then left alone when they cross the age of 40.
This is ISLAM,we all muslim brother and sisters are trying in some way to convince this woman to not to take a divorce,on the opposite side there is a so called humanist who boldly advises to leave the man and do not think of the children and the family and also that woman herself when she is no longer attaractive to get a new man in her life.
for the sake of the of few worldly fun he is advising her to destroy her family leave her children without father without thinking of her future.
WOW RON YOU ARE REALLY A HUMANIST!dont know in what sence
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 27 July 2010 at 4:21pm
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I answered what I thought deserved an answer. Most of your posts are just ad hominems or neocolonial rants.
According to me, the hadith is neither good nor bad. To be either, it would have to exist, and no one has given me any reason to suppose that it does.
Whether I believe it or not is unimportant. What matters is whether Muslims ought to believe it, i.e. whether it is part of Islam or just something somebody made up.
No, you brought in Muslims. (Remember "and thus Muslims"?) I brought in Islam because Saudi Arabia is a fundamentalist Islamic state. Islam has everything to do with it.
The difference is that in Saudi Arabia he knows he can probably get away with it. She probably can't even leave the house without his permission; and when she does, a burka can hide any evidence. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 July 2010 at 3:53am
Salaam Bro Fais, Just for the record - all of us muslim brothers and sisters are not trying to convince the lady to "not obtain a divorce". There is nothing wrong with obtaining a divorce when circumstances demand it. The gentleman in this story, (Marie-London's husband) has not exactly been very trustworthy, and Marie didn't sign up for the circumstances she is in right now. She understands her circumstances better, and nobody obtains a divorce for "worldly fun" especially when they have kids. Let this be her decision, we should not sway her on either side. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 July 2010 at 4:01am
There are laws in place that do deal with spousal abuse. There was the case of a Saudi presenter who was beaten up by her husband, she reported it, went public and the husband was arrested. I am not posting a link because Islamophobes are going to ignore the fact that the Govt took action, and are going to focus on the wife-beating aspect only. Saudi Arabia is not an ideal society, and has its flaws. But people like you just take it to extremes. Like you said, good and bad people exist everywhere. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: fais
Date Posted: 28 July 2010 at 10:02am
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Salam sister, Yes i did not mean we are convincing her but in back of our mind we always hate divorce,so we will never make bold comments like just leave that man, I remember sister hopes when i was going through the divorce,she wisely gave me good advises and never directly told me to give divorce to my wife,so this is a muslim behaviour.
we dont know what she will face or what is her situation so we should always avoid advising for divorce to anyone,this is what i meant,but ron is immposssible
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 28 July 2010 at 7:42pm
Finally you both were running around as secular couple! If he was a practicing Muslims and you were a Catholic he couldn't demand a reversion from you but you had to be in a chaste condition and not going bar hopping! But the case law doesn't apply in your case now ... He made the reversion to faith call first so you don't get to say that you want to go back to your religion cuz that will be a reactionary move...You both lacked the religion but now for children sake there has to be a common theme for their sanity not necessarily you two but it will help you I can guarantee! If you had become religious firsts I would say in that case he follows your lead but you didn't... We do not have his side so it is difficult to give an advice that will cover all bases! Both of you have long way go; learn things that are necessary to raise a responsible adults that you both were not! Once the kids are adults and still you guys have problems to fully mature then go the separate ways by all means! First learn, practice and then decide, don't go on the hearsay! If they are raised as Muslims they know they can always get the other choices on the outside for comparison and they can make that call on their own dime! It doesn't matter what happens but the children need their father...no matter what you think about now and what they are telling you! Let them become teenagers they will drive you up the wall and then you will regret! People with no children of their own shouldn't be on this thread IMO! I have seen the children of the divorced and the kind of talk back they give to their moms for a broken home! If you remarry there aren't too many men around who will replace the real one! But who knows if you want to take that route! No one is a seer around here! Looking at your posts you need to also to go back to school and get some professional training that will help to raise your children! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: marie-london
Date Posted: 29 July 2010 at 3:31am
| first of all how rude are you ..... i dont claim to be intellegent or knowledge of any religion and this is why i am on this forum to merely try and understand things a little more, i refer to alot of thing that i have been told about islam by my husband and i am trying to get advice on the things he tells me is a rule of his religion, and just because my children maybe left without a father does not means they will grow up to be delinquents, there are alot of good single mums out there (and considering my good muslim husband has only been in there lives for 21 weeks out of the last 18 months while is is busy on dating sites in saudi arabia looking for his good muslim wife (which his religion allows him) indicates i am looking after my children on my own, with very little financially support. you also refer to me having to go back to school, just because maybe my writing is not correctly presented, does not stop me from knowing the main principal in life .... trust, honesty, love, guidance and a whole raft of other morals which has been my moral upbringing. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 29 July 2010 at 4:55am
Sister, its going to be hard - but - ignore the negativity. I for one think that it was wise of you to try and get validation for whatever your husband claims that Islam says. You cannot obviously take him for his word. He has not proven himself to be trustworthy. Trust is earned, its not a right to be given.
I agree with you Sister - being a single mom doesn't mean your children will grow up to be delinquents. The mere "formal" presence of a father does not ensure good kids. Besides, he will always remain their father whether or not you live together. If he is a good Muslim and a good father, he will make an effort to stay in the life of his children. That decision is not your sole responsibility. He needs to make that decision too. Like they say, "it is better to lose a lover than to love a loser". You can decide better if your husband is a good influence on your family's life. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting Divorce - I just think its a decision ONLY YOU can make, since you have all the facts and the whole picture with you. We cannot advise you based on a few facts. You mentioned that his religion allows him a second wife - well Sis, in case you were not aware, if he throws that excuse in your face - you have certain rights as well. Islamically it is his legal responsibility to provide you with the same things he provides his second wife. Provided you both remain married. If you get divorced, then you are only entitled to your marriage dowry i.e. Mahr. For e.g. if he buys her a house, he has to buy you a house. He is also financially responsible for the maintenance of his children. He is also bound to spend equal time with both the wives. If that means spending 6months in each country, so be it. Islam will fully protect your rights as the first wife. Having said that - obviously there is no Shariah Law in the UK that can implement that. But if he actually did have a religious awakening - you should be able to settle these issues with him amicably. Tell him plain and simple that those are his legal responsibilities and not fulfilling them is a sin. He will be held accountable on the day of judgment. I hear there are Shariah Courts in the UK ? If so, and if your husband doesn't co-operate, you could perhaps approach the Shariah Court to settle your disputes. They deal with issues of Divorce and Family etc. I don't know how "Islamic" they are, but its worth a try. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 July 2010 at 4:06pm
 Priceless - and true!------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 December 2010 at 8:08pm
This evening I heard an interview with Nathalie Morin, a Canadian woman held captive by her husband in Saudi Arabia. I had to post it here, just in case anyone thought I was making this up. You can hear the full interview (which was cut short because of the danger that her husband might come home) here:
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2010/12/16/trapped-in-saudi-arabia/ - http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2010/12/16/trapped-in-saudi-arabia/
Here are a few excerpts:
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |