abujamal wrote: George Bush: "The terrorists (ie Muslims) believe that free societies are essentially corrupt and decadent...." 28 June 2005 What would give him that idea..........The fruits of freedom & democray may be? Guilty verdict in France's biggest paedophile trial By Jenny Booth, Times Online A jury has delivered its first verdict - guilty - in the biggest paedophile trial in French legal history. In total, 65 men and women from the same run-down housing estate in the town of Angers are in the dock, accused of raping and sexually abusing children as young as six months. The court heard how some children were prostituted by their own parents in return for food parcels or cartons of cigarettes. The adults are said to have abused a total of 45 children up to the age of 12 over a two year period starting in 1999. "Parents of one kid sold her for a new car-tyre...." Of the 65 accused, 26 are female.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1710690,00.html - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1710690,00.htm l And this is what they want to spread in our lands! No Thanks!

Assalamu alaikum,

Yes, akhi, they do want to spread that in our lands. Only such decadent societies will buy their useless luxury goods while their brothers and sisters starve.

Sure - every man in the west sodomises boys. It's a growing industry, you know. We like to think of ourselves at The New Ancient Greeks.

I tell you what - we'll stop all our men playing with little boys, if you stop your women from hacking the genitals off your little girls...

No?

Kim...

Just do a search in any news search engine on "Child Abuse", Murder etc and you will see the decadance that plagues the secular nations who want to export their diseases to our lands through their "freedom & Democracy. Everyone is plagued including law enforcement people:

Cop guilty of child abuse
Christine Caulfield
28jul05

A RETIRED police inspector has been convicted of abusing two teenage brothers under the nose of their unsuspecting parents.

But the jury rejected his defence and convicted him on eight counts, including indecent assault, gross indecency and sexual penetration of a child under 16.

The court earlier heard McLennan, married with two adult children, molested the boys throughout the early 1990s, luring them to his Frankston home for weights training. http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16073422%255E2862,00.html - http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16 073422%255E2862,00.html

Retired policeman charged of accessing child porn

Date: July 16, 2005
Source: http://www.chron.com/ - chron.com

A retired South Texas police sergeant is accused of downloading child pornography on a city-owned computer while he was on duty.

http://www.crime-research.org/news/16.07.2005/1364/ - http://www.crime-research.org/news/16.07.2005/1364/

http://www.leylandtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=77&ArticleID=1078019 - http://www.leylandtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=77 &ArticleID=1078019

Bismillah,

What a horrible story.  And this is the one we heard about. Let's be sincere about this.  Sexual abuse and pediophiles exist in "Muslim" countries as well.

B, you are not being sincere.  Stop trading barbs with people long enough to think about the fairness of what they have to say.  You're making numerous eloquent responses with skillful language rather than speaking to the heart of what people are saying.

You say that terrorists and death cultists are the fruit of Islaam and we must take responsibility for them, yet you don't want to give credit to Muslims for the honor and dignity we bring to life when we follow our faith.

America gave Ossama,and many others who shouldn't have had it, (Central American revolutionaries and evil regimes for one) lots of money.  It is vital that we take responsiblity for this aggressive behavior and begin a new order which involves caring for the sick and poor and raising kids free from abuse of all kinds.

You think guns are the solution.  I think love, concern, and care for our neighbors here and abroad will enrich and change our way of life.  People need to lose their prideful ways and in humility before our Lord be as pious, kind, giving, and humble in all of our dealings as we can.  It's harder to build than destroy, but we must struggle in jihad for this while we are on this earth.  (Yes, guns are necessary, but not machine guns or bombs.  Guns are weapons of terror.  I hate guns.)

Kids need to feel safe enough with society to tell when something bad is happening to them.  We are all to blame for not listening to them.  We need to listen to kids to help prevent their abuse.

Peace upon those who follow the Guidance

Muslim lands are not plagued with the West's daily occurences of the fruits of their ideology whether its child-abduction, rape and murder, (quite often together) along with violent-crimes, child abuse, burglary, mugging, drugs, degradation of women into sex-objects etc.

We need to understand that the roots of these are deeply embedded in the evil ideology of Capitalism whose creed of Secularism makes man free to choose his own pleasures and maximize them - so people do leading to the decadence we witness in the west.

As long as such barbaric concepts of sovereignty belonging to man who then through his/her freedom is enslaved to his desires continue to be the basis of the west, these will get worse as in the West, they continues to look for the ultimate pleasure which means becoming increasingly corrupt, criminal and decadent.

Allah sent the Messenger (saw) with the ideology of Haq (truth) to prevail over all other ideologies (Quran 9:33) in order liberate mankind from the enslavement to everything including their own instincts/desires to the enslavement to their Creator.

Its natural for the West to go on the defensive and attempt to accuse the Muslims of having these deseases but if they were sincere, they would not make unsubstantiated accusations. Muslim lands do have some problems as no human society will have utopia and Allah, the creator of Man, recognized that when he revealed Islam and legislated the punishment system. But they are not plagued and rotting with decadence where parents sell their children from the age of six months for cigerettes! (see first post in this thread).

The Solution therefore is to liberate the West from their path to self-destruction to remove the root causes of secularism (freedom, democracy, human rights, pluralism etc) and replace it with Islam.

Note: They ARE using guns to enforce their evil ideology in Iraq and Afghanistan.

b95000 wrote: "especially the wild wild west of Americas where sin and vice leads the ways of life." But jibreel - you fail to mention the child killing and mass murders in predominantly Islamic countries...why not?

Another unsubstantiated accusation. The point it at issue is the decadence in the "Free" secular west which has reached epidmic proportions.

Bismillah,

Please concern yourselves with the poor abused children moren than your egos or pride.  Why this comparative study? 

Brothers, are you saying you don't believe there is rampant sex abuse of children and women in Muslim countries?

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Please concern yourselves with the poor abused children moren than your egos or pride.  Why this comparative study?  Brothers, are you saying you don't believe there is rampant sex abuse of children and women in Muslim countries?

There is no comparison between the established and proven decadence of the West thanks to the evil ideology of Capitalism.

Everyone who is trying to make a false comparison in defence of the West has yet to bring forth any evidence.

Jibreel wrote:

"""So why do you, are you threatened that Muslims will expose your evil ways?,""""

Why do you constantly accuse the "West" of having evils ways and paint us as being Nazis? I am not a Christian but I seem to remember it was Jesus who said "let those without sin cast the first stone". Could Jesus have been telling people to look into the failings of their own lives before pointing fingers at others? Out of interest, can someone tell me if Muslims accept this particular teaching of Jesus? Even if there is no direct reference to it in the Qu'ran, are there Muslims on this board who think Jesus's words express a universal message that could be of benefit to all people regardless of our particular beliefs?

Incredible!

You open by saying, in quotes, "The terrorists" and then ADD (ie, muslims.)

Why do you do such things? People come to forums like this to try and learn about muslims and find nonsense like this.

How is anyone meant to take what you have to say seriously when your paranoia won't let you get past what you THINK someone MIGHT have said or MAY have thought.

If you have a reasoned argument, on any subject, I'll be glad to hear it. But the more nonsense (The world hates us all, type thing) I read, the harder it is to see past your very obvious hatred, to anything rational, or constructive, that you might have to say.

Bismillah,

Child abuse is a vital topic for discussion and searching for methods to provide relief to children and women who are abused.  The decent people of this world need to work together against the evil child abusers instead of having ego battles.

Commonly it is very difficult to have evidence of child abuse and rape.  There is a stigma in America, and there is a stigma and threat to a child and woman's life in "Muslim" countries if they accuse their abuser without crystal clear proof that it was abuse and rape. 

Stop worrying about your countries' images and care about the children and women who are abused regularly.  The whole world has this problem, and it is destroying our families and societies.

Colin wrote: I am not a Christian but I seem to remember it was Jesus who said "let those without sin cast the first stone". Could Jesus have been telling people to look into the failings of their own lives before pointing fingers at others? Out of interest, can someone tell me if Muslims accept this particular teaching of Jesus? Even if there is no direct reference to it in the Qu'ran, are there Muslims on this board who think Jesus's words express a universal message that could be of benefit to all people regardless of our particular beliefs?

Jibreel wrote:

Why do you need others to support you when its my post you disagree with, so why not ask me what i am trying to say if you do not understand?

I was simply asking a couple of general questions to any Muslims who wished to answer. That is not the same as looking for others to support me. If you don't wish to even attempt to understand what I'm saying, that's fine, but don't accuse me of things I haven't done...

And:

1-since you have no education on it i suggest you learn for yourself instead of going with the Conjecture, Jesus (PBUH) spoke against false witnesses.

They are very straight questions albeit in the context of your constant finger pointing and blaming. They are questions relating to Jesus's teachings, thus, have nothing to do with "false witness". If you can't or don't want to give answers, so be it. Maybe there are Muslims here that will attempt to answer my questions. 

Assalamu alaikum,

Colin wrote:  I am not a Christian but I seem to remember it was Jesus who said "let those without sin cast the first stone". Could Jesus have been telling people to look into the failings of their own lives before pointing fingers at others? Out of interest, can someone tell me if Muslims accept this particular teaching of Jesus? Even if there is no direct reference to it in the Qu'ran, are there Muslims on this board who think Jesus's words express a universal message that could be of benefit to all people regardless of our particular beliefs?

I am one Muslim who does believe that "let those without sin cast the first stone" is indeed a universal message that could be of benefit to all peoples.  It is my understanding that harbouring suspicians against other Muslims is a sin in Islam.  It is my understanding that false accusations without clear evidence is an even bigger sin.  Unfortunately, many posters here seem to do nothing but point fingers at one another rather than coming up with viable solutions to problems.

Child abuse is a most serious problem all over the world - pointing fingers at one another solves nothing.  Cleaning up ones' own household, community, bretheren in faith, is a good place to start.

Peace, ummziba.

Hi Colin,

A careful and thoughtful reading of the Qur'an will lead one to the same conclusion, but the words of Prophet Jesus have no direct equivalent. Certainly a significant portion of the Gospels are actually the words of Jesus (some passages are so profound that it is impossible to believe that anyone other than a prophet of God uttered them), and this statement certainly is one such passage.

What has always amazed me, even before I became a Muslim, is how anyone could believe that the words of Jesus, so succinct, powerful, and universal, could have anything to do with the verbose, tendentious, irrational, and bigoted letters of Paul.

Yusuf. wrote: Hi Colin, A careful and thoughtful reading of the Qur'an will lead one to the same conclusion, but the words of Prophet Jesus have no direct equivalent. Certainly a significant portion of the Gospels are actually the words of Jesus (some passages are so profound that it is impossible to believe that anyone other than a prophet of God uttered them), and this statement certainly is one such passage.

Hello Yusuf,

I'm not a Christian but I have much respect for the moral teachings of Jesus.

What has always amazed me, even before I became a Muslim, is how anyone could believe that the words of Jesus, so succinct, powerful, and universal, could have anything to do with the verbose, tendentious, irrational, and bigoted letters of Paul.

I know what you mean Yusuf. I think Paul was on a huge guilt trip. A touch of poacher turned gamekeeper syndrome coming into play maybe?

What are you jiberring on about Jibreel? Why do you read my words, totally ignore them and go off on a strange Nazi obsessed rant? If I weren't so easy going, I would report you to the mods for being an impediment to reasoned debate.....

Hi All,

Please do not compare others with "satanic symbol" such as nazi etc, I believe i'll not help you to convey your point and moreover It'll make the discussion looks ugly.
Thanks for your cooperation.

Bismillah,

Shelters help say those who run them.  Okay.  They do, but not always or for every situation.

Societies need to stop blaming the children and women victims.  The ones who have been attacked need to know that they are not impure because of such things happening to them.  Our societies must clearly inform victims that they are not despised or considered not good enough for society or marriage anymore. 

Rape and abuse are weapons used against our people all over the earth today either by individuals or groups.  Let's lead a campaign to empower the victims by encouraging their belief in their own humanity and worth as well as the rest of the world's ability to respect them as wonderful creations of Allah, SWT, and get past what they have survived.

b95000 wrote: herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Shelters help say those who run them.  Okay.  They do, but not always or for every situation. Societies need to stop blaming the children and women victims.  The ones who have been attacked need to know that they are not impure because of such things happening to them.  Our societies must clearly inform victims that they are not despised or considered not good enough for society or marriage anymore.  Rape and abuse are weapons used against our people all over the earth today either by individuals or groups.  Let's lead a campaign to empower the victims by encouraging their belief in their own humanity and worth as well as the rest of the world's ability to respect them as wonderful creations of Allah, SWT, and get past what they have survived. I totally agree - there are some traditions within all the great faiths that tend to run counter to such reforms.  That is problematic.  How can our faith traditions and improper attitudes toward women be reformed too?  I know in Christianity, Genesis informs us that God created man and woman, male and female, made He them, in His image.  So woman and man are made in God's image.  Also Paul informs us that their is neither male nor female but all are one in Christ. What are some of the pertinent passages in the Qur'an regarding the 'wonderful creations' about which you so eloquently wrote?

XVI.

3. He has created the heavens and the earth for just ends: Far is He above having the partners they ascribe to Him!

4. He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!

5. And cattle He has created for you (men): from them ye derive warmth, and numerous benefits, and of their (meat) ye eat.

6. And ye have a sense of pride and beauty in them as ye drive them home in the evening, and as ye lead them forth to pasture in the morning.

7. And they carry your heavy loads to lands that ye could not (otherwise) reach except with souls distressed: for your Lord is indeed Most Kind, Most Merciful,

8. And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride and use for show; and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge.

33. A Sign for them is the earth that is dead: We do give it life, and produce grain therefrom, of which ye do eat.

34. And We produce therein orchard with date-palms and vines, and We cause springs to gush forth therein:

35. That they may enjoy the fruits of this (artistry): It was not their hands that made this: will they not then give thanks?

36. Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge.

XLIX. 13. O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

II. 62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

VI. 38. There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

XIV. 34. And He giveth you of all that ye ask for. But if ye count the favours of Allah, never will ye be able to number them. Verily, man is given up to injustice and ingratitude.

This is the Qur'anic version of the creation of mankind:

II.

30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

b95000 wrote: Yusuf. wrote: As for the role of women in society, at the time of the Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, Islam was truly revolutionary. Women were property, nothing more, before Islam. The Qur'an gives women the right of inheritance, divorce, and specifically states that they are not to be treated as property. Much of the spirit of this has been destroyed by male chauvinism and tribal custom. I think the attitudes toward women in Christianity has not been as informed by the Spirit of God and the Bible as by male chauvinism and customs either...this is a good starting point for both Faiths to be more consistent with their own Scriptures! Yusuf, we agree!!!!!!!!

Oh I've seen quite a few posts of yours I agree with; I've just been in an obnoxious mood lately!

The decadence of Secularism continues.......

Teenage drinking 'out of control' By Nic Fleming, Medical Correspondent and George Jones (Filed: 02/08/2005) Binge drinking among young people is out of control, the Government was warned last night, after it was revealed that about 13 children a day are admitted to hospital suffering from the effects of alcohol. < = src="/core/NetGravity/mpu.js"> Admissions for alcohol-related disease among under-18s have increased by 11 per cent since the mid-1990s. In 2003/4 some 4,647 children were admitted to hospital suffering from conditions such as mental and behavioural disorders caused by alcohol, liver disease or the toxic effects of bingeing. That was up from 4,173 in 1996/97. During the same period adult hospital admissions because of the effects of alcohol rose by 15 per cent, from 35,740 to 41,122. The figures were disclosed in a parliamentary answer to Paul Burstow, the Liberal Democrat health spokesman and a member of the Commons health committee. Mr Burstow accused the Government of "dither and delay" over alcohol abuse. He said: "The number of children being admitted to hospital for alcohol-related disease is shocking and shows that binge drinking among teenagers is completely out of control." David Davis, the shadow home secretary, criticised Government plans to allow 24-hour pub opening from the autumn. "With illness from under-age drinking on the rise, it beggars belief that the Government is prepared to press ahead with even longer drinking hours," he said. Binge drinking was identified as one of the key public health issues in a White Paper last November. A survey published in December found that Britain's teenagers were among the heaviest drinkers in Europe, with 29 per cent of girls and 25 per cent of boys aged 15-16 admitting to binge drinking during the previous month. The latest figures will underline concern about alcohol contributing to a rise in anti-social behaviour. http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/02/ndrink02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/02/ixnewstop.html - http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/0 8/02/ndrink02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/02/ixnewstop.html Let's here some disbeliever claim that this happens in Muslim lands too (with the usual absence of even of fabricated evidence)

Bismillah,

Thank you Yusuf for answering B.

The Qur'an says a very important thing which would ameliorate child abuse if followed.  When adults are sleeping, either for an afternoon nap or nighttime, children are not to walk in on them.

This points out an Islaamic concept that all human beings have weaknesses in our nature.  We must struggle in jihad to overcome any base instincts that occur to us.  We must avoid situations where abuse could arise.

It is common, very, very common, for Arabs that I know to think that the basic rules like this one do not apply to them because "they are better".  Those silly rules are for lower creatures than them.

If we follow simple codes of conduct to protect our children (the world's children) and women, from abuse this will help.

What other things can we do?  One I can think of is to emphasize that victims are not defiled or less in any way.  Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, married a woman 15 years older than him and they stayed married until her death.  Why do so many men today try to marry virgins?  What's so great about that?  I think that idea leads people to erroneously believe that non-virgins are not worth as much, are defiled.  

Therefore, a child or woman who has been raped has what value to these people in reality?  Would they allow their son or daughter to marry someone who was raped as a child?  No.  They seek a false purity.  Allah, SWT, purifies us all with our faith.

Assalamu alaikum,

Sister Herjihad, you have made some very good points in your post.  It is vital that people realize that the majority of child sexual abuse occurs within the family.  This could certainly be helped by obeying the simple Qur'anic injunction of "no children in bed with adults" - to paraphrase what you mentioned.  (And you are right, I know many people who sleep with their children and think there is nothing wrong with it!!!)

Also, all of us need to pay attention to what children are saying.  Why does 'so and so' make such a fuss about visiting her uncle's house?  Why is 'so and so' abnormally negative about going to grandma's house?  We need to wake up to these cues, they could be cries for help from the abused who don't know how to vocalize what is happening to them.

And you are right, as well, in pointing out that the attitude people have towards those who have been raped and abused must change.  It is not their fault and they should not be seen as "unpure" because of it.

Families really need to wake up and pay attention to the relationships within their own walls, their extended families and then their communities.  Again, the majority of abuse happens within the family - we must realize and do something about this horrible situation.

Looking the other way, being quiet for the sake of the family, putting "honour" over human dignity is all so wrong.

Peace, ummziba.

Jibreel wrote:

All my posts where geared to exposing him to himself,

I suggest all you've really done is expose your real self to the other members of this forum.

and:

id id not play dirty by doing anything on my own accord.

Joining a forum and within days calling a long standing member, a person you don't know, a racist, a bigot and a Nazi, would probably appear to most rational people as playing dirty. I strongly suggest you read the forum guidelines before making any more outlandish remarks.

Bismillah,

Ummziba, B, yes, that is true in America and other countries.  A big concern also is that when people are warring, they still find rape a powerful weapon against their enemies.  The pain and anguish will continue with such violent acts, but what if the victims were loved and accepted by society?  The perpretators would be defeated ultimately if all of us found a way to make a powerful movement calling for the acknowldgement that women and children are not defiled and remain vital human beings even after such attacks.

How can we begin such an acknowldgement throughout the world?

Decadence of Secularism continues.......

Youth remanded over boy rape claims

A 12-year-old boy has appeared in court charged with the rape of an eight-year-old boy.
The youngster, who cannot be named for legal reasons, appeared before Wigan Youth Court charged with a catalogue of sex offences against the young victim.

The boy, from Worsley Mesnes, Wigan, Greater Manchester, spoke only to confirm his name and personal details during the 40-minute hearing.

The child is charged with two counts of rape, seven of sexual assault and three of engaging a child in sexual activity.

The offences are alleged to have taken place between April 1 and July 27 this year in Worsley Mesnes.

The boy's father attended the hearing.

No plea was entered and reporting restrictions were not lifted.

The boy was remanded into secure accommodation and will return to Wigan Youth Court on August 23.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=359813&in_page_id=1770 - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.htm l?in_article_id=359813&in_page_id=1770

Bismillah,

Do you actually believe that children and women aren't raped in non-western countries like Jordan or Malasia?

The problem is not secularism.  So called religious people rape and murder all the time.  The problem is that evil exists in the world and we need to work together to fight it with all of our power instead of poking silly insults at one another.

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Do you actually believe that children and women aren't raped in non-western countries like Jordan or Malasia? The problem is not secularism.  So called religious people rape and murder all the time.  The problem is that evil exists in the world and we need to work together to fight it with all of our power instead of poking silly insults at one another.

Good post Herjihad, I agree with what you say.

Do you actually believe that children and women aren't raped in non-western countries

It's just sad to pretend as if we have distilled some special brew of a Pure Society by the simple magic of adopting Islamic names.

Women are not just raped, but at times gang raped by the consent of an entire village council. And, its far sadder that just one Mukhtaran Mai out of thousands of such women dare stand against her such treatment in a country of 150 million gallant Muslims!