Muslims arrested for trying to pray in C�rdoba�s f
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Topic: Muslims arrested for trying to pray in C�rdoba�s f
Posted By: Boomer
Subject: Muslims arrested for trying to pray in C�rdoba�s f
Date Posted: 03 April 2010 at 5:16am
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In 711 CE, the Umayyad Caliph al-Walid gave permission to the Arab governer of North Africa, Musa ibn Nusair, to attack It was over within four years, as the vast majority of Spanish land fell to the hordes of Allah's soldiers and became dar al-Islam. The Muslim imperialists named Muslims arrested for trying to pray in C�rdoba�s former Great Mosque
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7085695.ece - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7085695.ece
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Two Muslim tourists were arrested when they tried to pray inside C�rdoba�s famous former mosque, breaking a ban imposed by the Roman Catholic Church. Replies:
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 03 April 2010 at 8:08am
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So..this building was originally built as a mosque, right? Then the Catholics took it over and consecrated it.
These visiting muslims then see it still as a holy place for muslim worship. TBH, don't you think these arrests were going over the top? Prayer is prayer is prayer..surely it doesn't matter in this case how the prayer is done ie on knees or sitting in a pew? The Pope said this."In the international context we are living at present, the Catholic Church continues convinced that, to foster peace and understanding between peoples and men, it is necessary and urgent that religions and their symbols be respected". He also added that this implies that "believers should not be the object of provocations that wound their lives and religious sentiments". Benedict XVI noted that "for believers, as for all people of good will, the only path that can lead to peace and fraternity is respect for the convictions and religious practices of others" I would see it to be a good idea then for the Pope to apologize for the arrest of these men, and give any muslim, in the future, the right to offer prayer in this former mosque. Many people of different religious denominations visit Cathedrals/Churches here in the UK to view the splendid architecture. They are not asked what religion they are from, nor are they prevented from entering. Good grief, can you imagine the problems that would cause? And I expect most people offer some form of prayer or Hail Mary when entering these places. These arrests just sound like a bad case of sour grapes. NOt sure if it is illegal to carry a knife in Spain, either outdoors or in a Church? Somehow doubt the knife was meant as any threat . NOw if it had been a bomb then I would say different. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 03 April 2010 at 7:53pm
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martha I liked what you have posted! After perusing the cited news report my take would be why make a publicity stunt to make money off the Muslim tourists who are sold a package going to the famous mosque? It is pure hypocrisy and worse case of baiting, providentially speaking a mosque can not be converted to any other form of temple. Period Of course the whole world has been made mosque for the believers! And the Mosque of Cordoba is just a marker of the truth...Any thing else doesn't fit the majesty of love that was depicted in its construction and beauty it is when the real believer stands in there that the idolaters may not fathom ever! The occupiers try if they must, can demolish and then build whatever, even then it will be no solution to the disbelief ...It has been tried in the past that is why the Prophet(saw) came to cleanse the main Mosques in Makkah and his Caliph Umar the great (r) did in Jerusalem...that were also converted into a temple of idolatry and rest is ebb and flow of God's law in world history! |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 03 April 2010 at 11:44pm
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Sign*
Glad you liked what I posted I have recently been reading the history of the Taj Mahal. Now that is REALLY interesting. 
You are right of course that muslims believe the whole world is a mosque. When ever I head northwards in the UK it is always pleasing to see muslim brothers offering salat outdoors on the grass areas of the motorway services. It causes quite a stir. 
And surely the world is big enough to accomodate all worshippers. It's all rather crazy, isn't it . ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 04 April 2010 at 11:28am
Hi Martha, First of all, one thing. I thought that I was having a pretty good knowledge of Islam and Islamic traditions, but after time, I still keep discovering things, like this one of the need of a knife to go to the Mosque. Sorry, that is the first time I heard that to pray, a "Muslim" needs a 40 cm. knife!!! And sure it's forbidden to have a knife in Spain, it's a crime itself... so imagine if it's inside a religious place full of people and tourists... Secondly, the Pope should not apologize, they have to do it! They came into a Christian place to provoke, that was their aim. A group who were communicated through walky talkies, who entered the Cathedral by different places and started praying in different places. And another thing that is not allowed in Spain is to attack the police, even if you didn't do anything, you should respect them when they come. This is not the first time that Muslim are trying to pray in the Cathedral, and there is an official prohibition of any other religion pray there that everyone knows. Let us expose the opposite, imagine if I was coming to Santa Sophia Cathedral in Istambul to pray as Christian, as far as that was a Christian place in old times... what do you think that people will do then? Or for instance, there are lot of Christians in Arabic countries, like Saudi Arabia, where they don't find Churches to pray... why they don't allow they to go inside the Mosques to pray? I think that would be a very good sign of their opening, and a step to ask for this "shared use" of the old Muslim places all over the world. But, actually, the truth is that in most of the Muslim countries, even the entrance inside the Mosque of non-Muslim is forbidden, so let us be fair at least for this time, please. We are not talking about an isolated happening, that's something that they planned for long time and what they want is just to provoke. I cannot accept it and I will never do. The fights should be done with different weapons, with truth, words and peace. Only the possession of the knife is already demonstrating the quality of these group of "Muslim". Regards, Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 04 April 2010 at 2:51pm
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HI Pati,
Long time no see here:) Well, in all fairness, I haven't read anything about a 40cm knife, or that this visit to the Cordoba place of worship was planned to disrupt. I agree that if they attacked and seriously hurt 2 security officers then that was wrong. So, would you not go into a non-Catholic church at all? DO you think you should be banned from them? I certainly would not suggest it...but maybe it would be a good thing? I thought the Pope was trying to bring religions more in tune with eachother. Guess not then. That is sad, as it just shows then that Catholics think only they have the truth. Anyone else is wrong with their beliefs. Is that so? I agree that all people should talk about truth and peace, as opposed to fighting about it. Saudi is not a good example to give re:mosques and worship. They dont like most muslims sects in all fairness and sunni's get arrested inside mosques there.BUt most other mosques in the world will let you in. Maybe the Catholics should not have taken the Cordoba mosque in the first place? It's like the Taj Mahal too. That was originally a muslim mosque, then it was taken over by hindu's. Doesn't seem right really does it? Maybe if the world becomes dominated by Islam then all Catholic churches etc will become mosques? Would that be fair to Catholics? Why can't an area be allocated to the muslims inside this place as has been suggested? It certainly does seem to discriminate agains't muslims :( ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 05 April 2010 at 10:26am
Hi Martha, I guess if you really understand what I wrote... I have been in Cordoba's Cathedral with my ex, who was(is) Muslim, and they didn't ban him. Actually, that day the Cathedral was full of Muslim because it was an organized travel from I don't know where, and none ban them from the Cathedral... Everyone is welcome there, and they don't ask about the faith of the visitor, because they don't mind about it. The problem here is that an organized group came there to make something that is specifically forbidden, such as praying in a different way than the Catholic. Do you understand it? We have nothing against Muslims, but lot of things against few Muslim who only want to fight and still dream about "Al-Andalus". Regarding your question about why we converted a former Mosque into a Cathedral... it's simple: it was beautiful, and we didn't destroy it, opposite, we respected and appreciated it. The same way, and I want to insist, that Muslims respected Santa Sophia Cathedral in Istambul. Isn't it? Muslim were banned from Spain, and please, I don't want to start the discussion about why did it happen (I don't think that is the point here), and we are talking about Middle Age, not about yesterday, and we recovered what was our land, only that. If you came to Spain, you would see home many Muslim places we are still having here, and respecting all of them. Cordoba is only another one, we have the Alhambra in Granada, we have water sources, we have bridges, we have old cities like Madinat Al-Zahra.... so many things... Does it means that Spain is Muslim? No, that means that Spanish love the beautiful and useful things, and we did all the possible to take care of it. About that idea that Islam will dominate the world... I think the same, Christians will dominate it... again  Kind regards, Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 05 April 2010 at 2:02pm
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Hi Pati,
I am understanding you more :) BUt is it not possible to have a small area in the Cathedral that could be for muslims? Anyway,.... I know Spain is beautiful. I have a friend that lives in Jaen...and I have promised to visit there. This year would be nice :) I love architecture, so I would be really at home with visiting all these places you have mentioned. Maybe you could show me around? ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 4:02am
I don't think the Taj Mahal was ever a Mosque... its always been a tomb, (mausoleum) made by then Emperor for his late wife. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 7:16am
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Salams Chrysalis,
I was trying to find out where this info I gave came from.(I had previously thought it was built in memory of Mumtaz Mahal..she was muslim, right?) So..from researching today it seems it was originally a Hindu Temple but then was used by both muslims and hindu's. ANd somewhere part of the building was used as a mosque. I am posting this link.You might like to read it? The point that interests me is that those entering the Taj Mahal remove their shoes(as you would do for a mosque/hindu temple) but if it was intended originally as a mausoleum then shoes would be kept on? Take a look, sis, at the link and let me know if you see something I haven't
http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/tajmahal.html ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 8:37am
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Martha, I send a link to someone who writes books on this subject, it'll be interesting to see what she says. but keep in mind there is TONS of politics in the subcontinent. The land may have at one time been a Hindo temple.. Hinduism is pretty old.. but The Taj Majal itself was built by the Moghul king for his wife who died in labor. No you do not wear shoes in masoleums (or many buildings in the India subcontinient.) When I went to famous tombs in Pakistan you did not wear shoes. Cleanliness is a virtue.. It is not a Masjid. There is an area for prayer.. but that does not make is a Masjid. Many houses have areas for prayer. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 9:02am
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Hey Hayfa,
It is an interesting subject isn't it. And I am open minded about it all. It will be good to know what this other lady thinks when she reads it. I would have loved to have studied architecture..now I feel as old as the stones I once wanted to study, lol . ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 10:26am
 Actually, "Madrid" is coming from the arabic, "sweet water" (that what they told me). If you came, you would be able to realize how integrated is the muslim culture here. Actually, for us, this is Spanish culture too, we are studying the Muslim period of Spain in the school and all that. You will see how similar are the people in the south of Spain to the arabic (dark skin, dark eyes...).
And no, it's not possible to share C�rdoba's Cathedral, but sometimes they allow Muslim to prays for special celebrations or special things... but that is a Cathedral, not a Mosque.
Spain is really beautiful in Spring time... and the Alhambra is a dream this time, full of flowers. Actually, the whole country starts being full of flowers, it's like a dream
Regards ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 12:43pm
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Hi Pati,
I will let you know if I visit. I love the cultural influences, especially Spanish, as I lived in Paraguay for a couple of years. ANd I really need to come over there as I want some typical Spanish flower pots, lol! They are far too expensive in the UK
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 4:46pm
You may not realize when the economic structure collapses to a point then nothing matters the Spaniards might put this place for sale! Our mosque is a purchased church that tells where does a Christian's heart belongs that they will sell their churches and move on...As I said previously the mosques can't be any thing else See Bibles at yard sales and that can't be imagined a Muslim selling his Quraan in garage sale! If the inquisitors had any capability besides torturing the Muslims and Jews they should have done complete change over and make it look like a church and not leave any traces of anything Islamic so no Muslim would return to be part of the legacy! Now legally and spiritually you can have a problem brewing for which you may not have a solution, the Muslims and Jews were terrorized out of the country doesn't bode well Did you notice that Islamic inscriptions still adorn the walls and ceiling and you see crosses and idolatry things forced fit like a sore thumb that looks so crude and unnatural while the mehrab still there! Finally all entries in the media always say mosque-cathedral, not cathedral have you thought about that? http://www.infocordoba.com/spain/andalusia/cordoba/photos/mosque_2/index.htm - http://www.infocordoba.com/spain/andalusia/cordoba/photos/mosque_2/index.htm Your mention of Sofia that was converted to Museum under Kamal's orders is irrelevant cuz if you go there you may be able to pray without any hassle in a room provided! But then it was an orthodox church and not a Catholic one to begin with! |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 8:04pm
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Hey Martha, I asked Indu Sundasaran- one of my favorite authors.. she researches and write on Mughul India.. I sent her the article. She wrote me: "The short answer, Sarah, is no. The longer answer is in an article I wrote about the Taj myths; it's with my publicist and agent right now, will let you know when this goes to press!" Once I see it, I'll send it to you! ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 10:19pm
Hi SignReader, First of all, I didn't say that Santa Sophia is Catholic, I know it was Orthodox... but Orthodox are Christians, don't you know? And we can pray in other's churches ;-) Actually, I did in Romania when I went there, and none banned me for being Catholic. On the other hand, do you know about the story of the "Reconquest"? Do you know when the end of the Islamic Empire in Spain started? They built I don't know how many small kingdoms around, and started selling the other Islamic kingdoms to the Christians. That was the way Christians recovered their land, because Muslims were "selling" it through their own betrays. And I insist, I came there, I know the Cathedral is full of Islamic signs... and see? We didn't destroy it. Actually, we have lot of places full of Quran quotes that we didn't destroy. Myself, I think that is a sign of respect, but maybe it's wrong and we should have destroyed it for the sake of "peace"�?. Well... as long as I appreciate it, and the whole country do it, I think we will go on taking care of it. Regarding "Mezquita-Catedral", the Mosque part is just a Museum, while the Cathedral is used for praying up today Regards, Patricia ------------- No God wants the killing, but the peace. The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 10 April 2010 at 11:31am
Thanks Hayfa..I shall look forward to hearing more :) ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |