ACE:

1. The best way to start would be to know what makes you think God doesn't exist.
=== You�re changing the topic. I ask �What makes you think that god exist�, you reply with the question �What makes you think he doesn�t exist�.

  2. Atheists usually argue that if God did exist we'd at least be able to see, hear, touch or smell him.
=== Sure, that is st**id argument if any atheist uses that. But look at what you doing � you take an obviously erroneous statement and prove it wrong. I agree with you, but how is it relevant? The fact that atheist are wrong on that one can�t be used as an argument that god exists.

3. There are things which you can only just feel. Pain would be one of the best examples. You don't see it, don't hear it, don't taste it and don't smell it. You can only feel it. That's what muslims mean when they say they can 'feel God'.
=== Basically what you saying � there are things that cannot be perceived. Agree. But that doesn�t mean that the god exist. I fail to see the logic.

3. I believe God has, out of the five senses a human has, given the human the ability to feel which would make him feel God's presence.
=== That is unsubstantiated belief. A supposition.

4. Imagine yourself in a position before you were of this belief, you were in a plane and the plane was about to crash, or a time bomb was about to go off next to you within a few seconds, what'd be your first words, or even reaction? "Oh God!" That's right, this is nothing but a natural feeling that exists . . . that sense of feeling which develops in a desperate situation, that some greater power out there exists, only which has the power to listen to your cry of desperation.
==== That can hardly be a proof, right? Some people do react like this some don�t. You use that argument as if you have enough statistics that back up this data. I have some doubts about that.
You also ask a direct question � what would I feel and for some reason you are convinced that my reaction would prove your point. I travelled for a number of years and I was in a life-threatening situations, our boat was close to drowning in a storm, I did some rock climbing and almost fell of the cliff. I had different thoughts in my head at that time.

 5. Undeniably humans also have this sense and feeling of right and wrong. You somehow seem to realize what's right and what's wrong naturally. Don't deny, its there. Don't even bother kidding yourself by saying you don't have these feelings anymore, because if so, you've just rejected them, since God has also given you the freedom to choose what you may.
=== You almost make it impossible to comment on this one, as you make a statement, call it undeniable, and then ask me not to argue as my argument would prove that I�m wrong.
Still� if you assume that people�s action are the indication of their feeling of right and wrong then you would probably come to a different conclusion.

5. Asked you this question before, you didn't answer it. Who'd best be able to tell me how, say, a complex machine works? The manufacturer, or a designer or a creator, or whatever you wanna call it, right?
=== Sure, the answer is clear � the creator of the device. But in the case when it is not clear if this machine exists, this can hardly be used as an argument.

 6. I doubt you've looked into it with an open mind, but the Quran is the only, I repeat, the only glorious book to ever exist which speaks of countless facts, so much so that I can't even think of going into details here, about the universe and the entire creatures in earth, which science is only starting to discover now.
=== 2000 years before the discovery of atoms, greek philosophers made an assumption that world is comprised of molecules. (Demokrit if memory serves me made that assumption) The theory was not popular at that time but proved to be correct 2000 years later. Alchemist made some assumptions that were verified a couple of ages later. Mexican Indians had a mythology about layered structure of the world which was proved really feasible by late M-theory discoveries.  If we dig into history we probably can find more examples. So it is not unheard of that correct statements about the nature of the world were made long before the actual discoveries. It doesn�t make them the proof of the devine interference.

 7. If you're really not an ignorant who's just to deny God's exstence and really want to go with wits and different angles and views in deciding God's existence you'd definitely look into this.  I assure you, you'll be utterly shocked as to what you discover regarding Quran and modern sceince.
=== I�ve read the same material about Christianity once, they make similar claims. Wasn�t really convincing, but let�s give it a try with Quran as well. Since you mentioned countless examples � I�d appreciate quotes from Quran.

HAYFA and ACE:

:I find this topic interesting as when people answer you as to WHY they have faith that is there is one God, you argue that "their" reason is wrong.
---- I understand where you coming from. When people hear objections they usually think that they are being accused of thinking wrong. This is not my intention. A try approaching it differently as I can�t agree with something that doesn�t stand close scrutiny and I can�t agree with something only to make other people comfortable. In fact I don�t argue with you here, I argue with myself. This is the way I approach it � I ask the question, then I receive the explanation. I can�t agree with explanation unless I see the grounds, the justification, or substantiation for it. I give you my reasons for not agreeing in order to hear counter-arguments, not in order to accuse you or force you into thinking the way I do. In other words � prove that my arguments are wrong, that it just fine.

HAYFA:

It�s like I believe that chocolate ice cream is the best. Is there logic in my mind - yes.
---- This is an illustration of having different preferences when it comes to taste. I fail to see this as an exampe of logic.

:Is it subjective- yes.
--- I don�t know what the subjective logic is, please give me an example.

Let me know what stance you take.

P.S. I can�t believe in god if all logical explanations prove that it doesn�t exist. If I (or you) can find an argument that proves me wrong, then I will change my mind. Do you think that�s a fair approach?


:I too like Martha, would like to know if you and every living creature "just happened along" or you were created?
--- My answer is I don�t know.
There is an irony in the fact that Darwin named his book �the origin of species� � he convincingly describes how evolutions develops, but doesn�t mention the origins of life.
My view is � nobody knows how the life began, the answer is not known. If there is no way to corroborate either point, then the fair thing is to say �I have no idea�.

We both hold views that are dear to our hearts, let�s try avoiding getting on defensive end and try applying logic. You do get defensive as well and actually fell into the same trap as I did with example with a 5 year boy. I stayed away from pointing it out as I didn�t want to turn the discussion into bickering.

:  But my life changed and I was given different ideas of God than the Catholic one and it made sense.
----- It could be great if you can give:
a. The most significant example of the Sign that convinced you
b. The most convincing idea that was given to you that made sense about god existence.

Elijah

MARTHA:

:But there is only ONE God, He is the same God for Muslims, Jews, Hindu's , Buddhists, Christians�
--- Of course, there are people who believe that it is the same one. I was making my argument implying that quran says: �There is no other god but Allah�. If I�m right in this assumption then in my opinion it would be incorrect to say that muslims think that Allah, Yahwe, and Christian god is actually the same one.
I�d like to hear the opinion of other muslims on the opinion that Martha mentioned as well (that there is only one god and it is the same for Christians, jews, and Buddhists)

If you agree that Allah is no different from Yahwe ,  only described in different terms, then I agree that people who believe in god can be called a majority of population.

: Will you just die and that will be it?
--- I don�t know, and I believe nobody knows for sure. Do you know what�s gonna happen to you after you die? Why you think that continuation of your life will be rewarding?

:What would be the point of your existence then? Seems rather pointless.
--- I don�t know what the point is. But does that make it a proof that god exist?

:Maybe you could start a new thread on what your views are?
--- I think it is pretty easy to conclude from my previous discussions and from the post that Hayfa called emotional rant. I�m not complaining about description � it�s just easier to locate it this way. I say pretty nasty things about religion but I�m not fixed on that. I think opinions should liable to change if the right set of arguments comes along. I just haven't seen one so far. I was offered by Ace to take a closer look at quran, I opened a post about it, but for some reason it�s sits in the queue for the third day. I thought moderator was pretty busy, but my other posts are approved pretty quickly.

:As you don't seem to want to listen to us and feel your Godless life is far more rewarding than ours please share.

ACE:

: Good to see however, that you're off it though.
--- Sure. As I said � it was pretty silly argument from the atheist perspective.

: (Example with pain) I doubt it'd make a valid point in the case of the creator. But I see it doesn't further needs to be addressed to.
--- Agree. And yes, I mistook your argument.

: Well, personally I believe you've abandoned those feelings, but alright, since you say you don't at all feel or have ever felt anything even close to it your entire life, sure, lets write this point off and move on
--- Well, it�s not only about me. Even though I related to my personal experience I believe that it is applicable to pretty big number of people. I would also mention that not everybody who says �Oh god!� implies the connection. So I guess we�ll leave it the way it is � we differ in opinions regarding that one and both have reasons to address it the way we do.

: By being "unclear of this machine not existing," as in such a systematic universe having a creator, do you believe, as I've heard, that the process of big bang was initiated by a "mere chance"? Cuz, if anything the first thing to get cleared off with is to deduce if perhaps this earth actually had a creator
--- This one seriously puzzled me. The answer is I don�t know.
There are a number of explanations here:
1. There is a �cyclic� theory of Big Bangs. It basically says that this was not a single Big Bang event, but rather a repetition. Theory states that every 13-20 billion of years the universe expands and collapses.
2.  Another theory states that there are more than one universe that is formed and there is more Big Bangs then one transpiring.
3. Lee Smolin formulated another theory. This theory suggests that the trigger for universe formation is not the Big Bang, but rather processes formed on black holes.
4. There is a theory that states that universe was formed once and for all, that singularity of this event is unique and that behind that stands intelligent creator � god.
In my eyes � all those theories seem pretty equal. I have no reasons at this point to choose over the other.
The scientist would further elaborate: Every theory can be evaluated from the probability perspective. The more probable theory would be the one that can be backed up with data. In that sense scientist would choose the first three over the the #4.

To sum it up. So far, I have no grounds to make a preference in this case.
In my eyes it is a classic trap and a lot of extremely intelligent people fell into that � I actually have a list of famous scientist, that make this leap of faith � biologist, physics, anthropologist. But I find this leap unreasonable: �If something cannot be explained, if something astonishes us by its beauty and complexity, then it doesn�t necessarily mean it was a deed of the intelligent creator�.

: Argument about Quran predictions.
--- It�s open. I�d like to see the information with the links to quran verses. I can try diggin it up myself, but since you have keen interest in it yourself, then it would probably be a huge help if you can point something out.

Eligah,

As a general thought experiment I would agree that something had to be at the beginning of creation.  Logic would seem to demand it.  However, whose God and does God take an active interest in the mundane world of human affairs is another question entirely.  The absolute lack of evidence of a personal God demands that I remain agnostic.  Faith, however, trumps logic every time.