Iran to review woman's stoning verdict
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Topic: Iran to review woman's stoning verdict
Posted By: Larry
Subject: Iran to review woman's stoning verdict
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 4:20am
|
Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, a widow and mother of two children has been sentenced to stoning to death in Tabriz, Iran for "adultery." She was first convicted in May 2006 of having "illicit relationship" with two men following the death of her husband, for which a court in Tabriz sentenced her to 99 lashes.
Ashtiani's stoning was approved by Iran's Supreme Court. Mohammed Javad Larijani of the "Iran Human Rights Counsel", referring to the outcry in the West over the verdict, stated, "The hue and cry that the West has launched over this case will not affect our judges. The implementation of Islamic regulations, like stoning and the headscarf, have always been faced with their impudently hostility and opposition." Under Islamic rulings, a man is buried up to his waist for stoning, while a woman is buried up to her chest with her hands also buried. Those carrying out the verdict then throw stones until the condemned dies. This is type of thing that would take place if the West agreed to adopt the practice of Islamic Sharia Law. |
Replies:
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 10:45am
|
Larry
Although I don't agree with certain Islamic laws these laws nonetheless have been practiced by Jews and Muslims for centuries. In Israel in Judaic law there is also death by stoning for adultery as well! There is no dignified way to die as a criminal. In the west we use gas, electricity, hanging and firing squads. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 11:19am
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And then there is Gibbs,, the spend the rest of you like in a hell-hople prison. Where some do not see daylight. Cannot have visitors etc. Every society has its punishments. As you say, there is no dignified way for a criminal to die. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 1:03pm
| I agree |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 8:40pm
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In Israel in Judaic law there is also death by stoning for adultery as well! There is no dignified way to die as a criminal. In the west we use gas, electricity, hanging and firing squads."
The main difference here is that there have been no "stonings" in Israel for 2,000 years. This is the year 2010 C.E., not 2010 B.C.E. Also, I disagree with your characterization of adultery as deserving of dying as a "criminal." You are indeed right that there are executions in the U.S. for capital crimes, but this is only after 10-15 years of mandatory appeals that must be exhausted in appellate courts before implementation of capital punishment can take place. But we don't execute mothers who see "other men" after their husbands die. Adultery in the United States is handled by family courts who determine if a divorce should be granted to the woman or man. We don't brutally beat women or men to death with stones when they have committed no "crimes" against the law. It is a Civil matter, not a criminal one. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 8:50pm
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Hayfa,
I am astonished that, as a woman, you could possibly support the murder of a woman with two children whose only "crime" was in seeing other men after the death of her husband. You justify her death sentence by saying that "every society has it's punishments." This is not "punishment", it is barbarism and cruelty at it's worst, it is reprehensible and revolting to any civilized person. As I said before, this is the year 2010 C.E., not 2010 B.C.E. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 9:43pm
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Actually Larry, I know very little of the specifics of the case. I suspect half of it is political of some sort. They say there are 10 people in prison awaiting stoning and I suspect there are more crimes of adultery, rape drugs, etc going on in Iran. And is any system of punishment free from error and a lack of mercy? Adultery is very hard to prove. For it, 4 witnesses are needed. How many times is it realistic that someone had sex with 4 witnesses? And thus rarely enforceable and should be left up to that person and God. The proof would be so hard to come by -4 witnesses. We are encouraged to have mercy. Interestingly Larry there is a hadith where a man or woman wanted to confess and receive punishment for zina and the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) refused. Let me see if I can find it. He said go and ask forgiveness from God. But for some they want the punishment now, and not in the afterlife. Considering how rare (and thus newsworthy) it is, maybe you don't understand the complexities of shariah law. My guess is it is probably political. That happens everywhere. Yes adultery is not a crime here (or if it is, in some states still, it is not enforced.) But that's the way like is. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 9:35am
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Interestingly enough, this penal code of stoning was introduced into Iran in 1979
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1293064/British-government-joins-celebrities-bid-save-Iranian-mother-stoning.html?ITO=1490 death penalty handed down on the basis of "judge's knowledge" � a loophole that allows for subjective judicial rulings where no conclusive evidence is present. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/02/iranian- woman-stoning-death-penalty I watched a You tube video the other day of a real life hanging of a 29yr old muslim woman. I did so to see how it affected me. I would not allow an animal to suffer this form of death let alone a human being. In the west we are told that encarceration, execution by legal injection, electricution.etc etc. are all abhorant. Over the past few days the European COurt has banned the extradition of Abu Hamza and Babar Ahmad. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10551784.stm isn't it amazing that such cruel archaic practices as stoning and slow hanging are condoned in muslim countries yet these 2 muslim brothers object to extradition because it breaches their human rights? (please read the above article) It kind of makes them look like whimps. Up until the early 1960's hanging was the prefered capital punishment in the UK. (there is no current death penalty) The most well known hangman was Albert Pierrepoint. He was meticulous with his work in as much as he treated all of the condemned with respect. Each prisoner was weighed and measured so Pierrepoint knew how long the hangmans noose should be. THe idea to severe the spinal cord when the body dropped, to make it as quick as possible. The heart continued to beat however for some time. He washed and dressed the bodies after death. So, with the knowledge that men have these days to execute, why is it necessary to make men/women suffer? Justice often needs to be metered out, but it should be as quick and painless as possible. THe point that a lingering death acts as a deterent doesn't hold sway either. In fact I am not sure any capital punishment prevents people from erring. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 4:19am
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I agree Martha, there is erring and also downright murder for those who willing set to die innocent people and we know that this has happened! The US is different then the UK of course. We have 2 million people at any given time in prison. Some are really dumb and do nothing whatsoever to stop the crime. I just watched a show on prisons and how gangs are actually run from the inside of prisons- "business" as well as crime. They have nothing to loose and continue to commit crimes not only this way but to murder and kill while in prison. I do not think that it is any more humane to lock someone up for 30 years or 50 years. Even if you do get out, what are you going to do? Is chopping off a hand any "less humane?" It is the question- what do you do with really, really bad people? I am not talking the minor offense people, I am talking hardened criminals? Can people be rehabilitated? Sure. But who is willing to risk their loved ones? I do not think there are any easy answers. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 14 July 2010 at 12:25am
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"It is the question-what do you do with really, really bad people? I am not talking the minor offense people, I am talking hardened criminals."
So, was the 29 year old woman slowly strangled to death with a noose around her neck a "hardened criminal?" Were the two homosexual teen boys in Iran who were slowly strangled with a noose around their necks, "hardened criminals?" "Is chopping off a hand any "less humane?"" CHOPPING OFF A HAND, FOR WHAT, THEFT? The problem here is that all these people were sentenced under Islamic shariah law. They were not "hardened criminals" they were two teenage boys and a 29 year old woman. And now Iran wants to stone to death the mother of two children because she had "illicit" relations with a man after the death of her husband. This is the huge difference between Islamic shariah law and the law as it is practised in the Western world. Here we don't execute kids because they are gay, nor do we chop off people's hands for theft, nor do we stone women to death for seeing a man, especially if her husband is dead and buried. Shariah law is not justice, it is an arbitrary "legal" system enforced by religious authorities. This will continue to be a problem in Islamic countries until they adopt modern legal principals and standards, without the input of "religious authorities" who should have no role at all in the courtroom. I still remember the videos of the Taliban bringing many women into the old football stadium in Afghanistan in the back of pickup trucks, putting them on their knees and then shooting them in the back of their heads with AK47's, all for "moral crimes." This is what is considered "justice" in the Islamic world? There is no reason that can "justify" these barbaric and loathsome actions, it is a "theological state" gone berserk. God help us all if shariah law actually became the law code adopted in every country in the world. One shudders with horror and revulsion at the mere thought of it! |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 14 July 2010 at 7:50am
How do you know there haven't been any stonings in Israel for 2, 000 years? Remember Jews were in Spain, Europe, parts of central Asia. Like I said our idea of ethics is different than a lot of nations and so we cannot expect everyone to agree or follow the judicial system we have here in the U.S. All laws are flawed and some laws are fueled by race even in the states. For instance blacks who are arrested for possession of "crack coccaine" serve more time in prison than whites who are in possession of powdered coccaine. Yes I know its different than the crime of adultery but my point is fairness and how laws can be viewed as flawed. |
Larry wrote:Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 14 July 2010 at 11:08pm
| Please refer to my previous post. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 15 July 2010 at 1:49am
http://www.evilbible.com/ - +ROTFLMAO= http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm - -
in the Bible  ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 15 July 2010 at 7:39am
|
Sign*
I liked that link. Am sure I can use it, so will copy and print. It is amazing though why people of most faiths seem to harp on about the old religious laws re: death penalty and punishments. As the world has evolved then surely religion has also. It is not necessary to be so inhumane with these out- dated punishments. Tell me..anyone...if there had been electricity 2,000 years ago would there have been electricutions instead of crucifixion? Bring back the guillotine then? Seems maybe the French had the best method to lessen the suffering of death. I agree that the death penalty is sometimes necessary. How it's done is really what needs updating. Even in Islam, sorry to say. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 15 July 2010 at 6:28pm
| Your reply is pointless, as usual. Like I said before, these things happened thousands of years ago. The pitiful thing about Islam is that it is still stoning people, cutting off heads, hands and feet, etc. No matter how you try to downplay or change the focus, Islam is still living in the 7th century. Try again. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 17 July 2010 at 9:59am
| It's shocking to me that we can't see the difference between a punishment for the taking of human life and the punishment for doing something that we are all genetically hard wired for, namely copulating. That's called propagating the species and all species have to do this and have to be hard wired for it or they become extinct. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 19 July 2010 at 11:45pm
Hi Gibbs, the US is not the benchmark for "the west". In Europe we don't use gas, electricity, hanging and firing squads. Don't equal the US with the west. That's presumptuous. And it seems that in terms of the death penalty Turkey is more advanced than the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Death_Penalty_World_Map.svg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Death_Penalty_World_Map.svg ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 2:53pm
Ok I'll watch my comments next time but because the Us is the "world super power" I use it as a benchmark
|
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 8:54pm
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I went with my niece to the National Museum on Crime and Punishment. I saw every method of torture and "punishment" and there is no humane method really. I saw the water method used in Europe long ago and isn't the US govt using it today? Probably somewhere. And living in those cells we put people in for 30 years is no less barbaric than cutting off a hand. And there are those deprived of human contact. How lovely. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 20 July 2010 at 11:21pm
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"and there is no humane method really."
No matter how you try and soften the issue, the fact is that shariah law is not a competent legal system or one that a modern society would want to emulate. People in prison for 30 years and people in solitary confinement, are hardened criminals who have reaped what they have sown and are not a danger to society while they are incarcerated. In the United States people are sentenced to death for heinous crimes, but their executions are painless and without suffering, unlike many of their victims. But even with capital punishment we would never chop off a person's hands or feet or head, or hang someone slowly as they gasp for air as in Iran, with no anesthetic or pain reliever. It is barbaric and cruel in the extreme. And what are their crimes, stealing? homosexuality? adultery? That is what happens when the State and Religion are put together as one. I have seen videos of people who are getting their hand or foot cut off, sometimes both at the same time. The person with the knife simply starts cutting at the joint and when the body part is cut off they just throw it down on the ground, as the victim screams in agony and someone ties a rag around the stump to keep them from dying of blood loss. "and there is no humane way really." Yes, Hayfa, there really are humane ways. |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 3:39am
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Ewww, its getting kinda gruesome.
So, to lighten it a bit...(our system here is REALLY soft) the more hardened the criminal the more comfort they have in prison. HAve heard prisoners have own contained units that resemble small apartments with own w/machine etc etc. Many take university degrees. What is interesting right now is the the English government are being criticized by the Americans for releasing Abdul Basset Al Megrahi. Though actually it was the Scottish Parliament that decided that. So question for you LArry. What is your view on this particular case? Should he have stayed, or on compassionate grounds released? Or should he have been executed humanely? Link below is on the UK system on prison conditions and human rights. I think they might be somewhat different to the US? http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/2009/issue1/pdf/foster1.pdf ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 21 July 2010 at 5:45am
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@Larry
If Shariah Law is such an incompetent legal system I wonder why law schools and universities across America offer it as a class of study (USC George Washington University to name a few). The fact of the matter is Shariah Law is a legal system that is geared toward a Muslim dominated society. Now with the severing of limbs in public the idea behind this psychology I think is to dissuade others from the act that was committed. If I was 13-years old and I see another kid same age as me get his hand chopped off from stealing I'd think twice about stealing. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 1:47am
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"Larry, If Shariah Law is such an incompetent legal system I wonder why law schools and universities across America offer it as a class of study (USC George Washington University to name a few).
Law schools and Universities teach about the Code of Hammurabi also, does that mean they support Babylonian law systems or those of Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union? I haven't seen any Law schools or Universities advocating the idea that Shariah Law be incorporated into our legal system. And the reason that they don't refers to your statement that "Now with the severing of limbs in public the idea behind this psychology I think is to dissuade others from the act that was committed. If I was 13-years old and see another kid same age as me get his hand chopped off from stealing, I'd think twice before stealing." What the ***** are you talking about? Do you actually think that in America we would condone UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES chopping off the hand of a 13 year old kid for stealing something from the store? This is why Shariah Law will NEVER be incorporated anywhere within the Western Legal System. To even think that that is okay to do to a kid is unbelievable, and anyone or anything defending such an action is disgusting and not worthy of being called civilized. In Christianity we don't cut off the limbs of children or anyone else, that is one of the great differences between Christianity and Islam. We believe it would be a horrendous to even think of doing something like this, let alone do it! |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 1:57am
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Abdul Basset Al Megrahi should have been left in prison until he died.
He and his fellow Libyan terrorist were responsible for the destruction of a 747 airliner with 270 innocent people on board and seven people in the village of Lockerbie, Scotland. That wasn't a very compassionate thing to do. I think God will judge his actions and respond accordingly by sending Abdul Basset Al Megrahi straight into a burning Hell where he belongs. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 2:58am
Any suggestions for a "civilised" and "uncruel" punishment ? Any alternatives? (That would produce results). Is the current punishment system all across the world uncruel, or un-barbaric ? What is a "civilized punishment" ?
Larry, Israel bases its legal code and judiciary on a number of sources including religious Judaic law i.e. Halakha. (based on Torah as well as Rabbinical opinions). It is a different matter entirely that the application of their law is hypocritical and based on a "pick and choose" criteria. An interesting aspect of Jewish law is that it is lenient and favorable to the Jews, and oppressive to Non-Jews - whereas Islamic Shariah Law is applicable only to Muslims and is lenient (infact not applicable) on Non-Muslims. Yet people like you have a problem with Shariah Laws, when they don't even apply to you! Its like sticking your nose in affairs that don't pertain to you. If the Israeli government were "good practicing Jews" they would be applying the Halakha punishments of stoning etc as well. Apparently this is what some Jewish politicians and public want as well: "Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman aroused a public outcry this week by stating that "step by step, http://jpost.headup.com/Services/FrontService/Horizon/RenderStatic.aspx?uri=http://schemas.semantinet.com/Info/name/Torah/displaytype//dbpediaSubject/Torah/&name=Torah - Torah law will become the binding law in the State of Israel." "Former justice minister Yossi Sarid expressed his fear that if Israel is turned into a state ruled by Halacha, there would be public stonings or burnings in cases of those who dared desecrate the http://jpost.headup.com/Services/FrontService/Horizon/RenderStatic.aspx?uri=http://schemas.semantinet.com/Info/name/Shabbat/displaytype//dbpediaSubject/Shabbat/&name=Shabbat - Shabbat or were unfaithful to their spouse, or if two homosexual men had sexual intercourse. " "A lot of secular Israelis are afraid that if tomorrow Israel becomes a state ruled by Halacha, people will be stoned or burned to death for transgressing sacred laws, or at the very least will be prevented from driving a car, going to a coffee shop, having a barbecue in their backyard or doing anything else that is forbidden on Shabbat. " http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=162860 - http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=162860 So why is Islamic Shariah Law only picked upon ? ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 3:46am
|
Salam Chrysalis
I suggested the French Guillotine  ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 5:23am
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"So why is Islamic Shariah Law only picked on?"
Because Islamic Shariah Law is PRACTICED in much of the Muslim world. There will never be a "Halacha" system of Law in Israel. A lot of extremist people can talk all they want but Israel is a modern democracy and religious Halacha Law will never be in force. It was okay in 1000 B.C. but it is not a modern, viable justice system. You will notice that you said "Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman aroused a PUBLIC OUTCRY this week by stating that 'step by step, Torah Law will become the binding law in the State of Israel'." The public would never allow religious extremists to control the judiciary as they do in Iran and other absolutist theocracies. The Islamic world would do itself a favor if they would stop using Shariah Law in their courts and legal system and adopt Western forms of Law based on established legal principals and the rule of law. It simply will never be considered civilized in any developed country if it continues to chop off people's body parts, stone women who commit "adultery" and slowly hang people to make them suffer before they die for simply being a homosexual. The Israeli people are different from the Palestinians. You will never see a Jewish woman send any of her children on a suicide mission to kill as many innocent people as they can. There is a mother in the West Bank who has had all six of her sons commit suicide like this, taking dozens of innocent people along with them. And this woman is considered a HERO in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. What moral perversion like this could ever be considered noble or admired? Jewish mothers love their children and the Jewish Torah would never condone actions like this for ANY reason. This is completely against what God in the Torah would ever condone, such as random murder. Any mother who would deliberately send even one of her children to die in a suicide bombing is not a mother that truly loves her children and wants them to have a good life. Instead of encouraging them to waste it by becoming a lifeless bloody mass of flesh to be shoveled into plastic body bags for no other reason than they hate the Israelis. It doesn't matter how "oppressed" a people feel they are, committing mass murder and suicide at the same time is not an action that should attract admiration from anyone, especially God. The Palestinian people are, frankly, st**id in how they seek to have their own "homeland." All they have to do is what Mohandas Ghandhi did almost single-handedly in India to achieve their independence, NON-VIOLENT PROTESTS. If the Palestinians threw away all their guns, bombs and rockets and simply protested peacefully it would put Israel in the same position that Ghandhi put the British Empire in. They would have the sympathy of the world and it would be impossible for Israel to make any military strikes against them and peace would be within reach at last. But shooting rockets at Israeli cities and suicide bombings gets the Palestinians nothing but retaliation from Israel and international condemnation. The "tit-for-tat" revenge gets the Palestinians nowhere. Even the Arab world doesn't want much to do with them because of their self-destructive policies and endless hatred for Israel. But until the Palestinians and the wider Arab world decide that Israel is here to stay and stop dreaming of taking back all of "Palestine" they will get nowhere and the killings and attacks will never end. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 5:32am
|
"whereas Islamic Shariah Law is applicable only to Muslims and is lenient (in fact not applicable) on non Muslims. Yet people like you have a problem with Shariah Laws, when they don't even apply to you. It's like sticking your nose in affairs that don't pertain to you."
Really? So suppose I go to Iran or Saudi Arabia, etc. and kill someone or steal all their money, will I just walk free from their Shariah legal system because I'm a Christian? Your answer is absurd and ridiculous. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 9:14am
well maybe under the sharia you lose a leg or a hand but you'll keep your head  -------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 10:45am
Unfortunately, as with most people - the problem here is your understanding of the Shariah Law. Unfortunately this is what YOU think Shariah Law is. (i.e. the Laws in Iran or Saudi Arabia). While Saudi Arabia does make an attempt to in include certain Shariah policies in their legal system - they are not a correct model or reflection of what the Shariah System is all about !!! Saudi Arabia only applies certain Shariah Laws correctly, while other laws are man-made and were not passed on as Shariah. You as a non-muslim cannot differentiate, naturally, and so assume that Saudi Laws = Shariah or Iranian Laws = Shariah. One simple example - the Shariah has no problem with females driving (i.e. driving transport), but in Saudia Arabia, it is illegal. Another example: in Islam it is perfectly fine for a muslim woman to marry a muslim man of a different culture or race, yet it is illegal in Saudia Arabia for a Saudi woman to do so. . . So basically if you look at it - Saudi Arabia does not wholly apply Shariah, just like Israel does not wholly apply Halakha. Yes, Saudi makes more of an effort than Israel does . . . . but at the end of the day, if Shariah Law were applied to the letter, it would actually remove the loopholes that many Muslim governments have today. Yet if Halakha were applied to the letter; Non-Jews would suffer. I don't know how you would be treated in Saudia Arabia / Iran, - but under actual Shariah Law (and not the version you have in your mind) - while you would definitely not be allowed to go scot-free, as a non-Muslim you have the right not to be judged under Shariah. You would be judged by the laws of your own scripture, or under a Civil Court. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 11:42am
|
Well ladies you must understand that larry isn't educated enough in Islamic philosophy, theology, or legal aspects of Islam. I'm just as ignorant since I don't know everything about Islam.
What this boils down to is larry's Christian influence presupposes that our American legal system is an ideal system of justice. He may be right however, our justice system conceptually pressuposes impartiality when our jail systems shows otherwise. Now switching gears Larry, Muslims cannot enforce shariah because A) they aren't an indigenous group with a sovereign state like native Americans and B) As a citizen and having a large religious community you cannot practice acts that may be deemed "unconstitutional" without due process and because the implementation of shariah takes a different process than that of our law it would create conflicts. Now you (Larry) said that shariah law is incompetent legal system. I responded stating various universities and law school study it. Regardless whether they discuss implementing it or not any incompetent legal system wouldn't make it to an accredited university. If you were college educated like myself you wouldve understood my statement. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 11:46am
Again - the bold part above: "Islamic" Shariah Law is not practiced in "much of the Muslim world". Just because a country chooses to pick one Law, such as amputating a thief, does not mean that they are implementing Shariah. Why? Because under Shariah, there is a whole list of details and prerequisites that need to be present before the punishment can be meted out. EXAMPLE : Under Shariah, if the Thief stole due to extreme poverty or necessity, or during a time of economic hardships - he/she cannot be subjected to the punishment of thievery. Picking one or two Shariah Laws and attempting to implement them, while ignoring all the other aspects of Shariah will not be effective, and could even be unislamic and wrong !!! Punishments under Shariah are part of a WHOLE. Punishments in Shariah are only a part of a vastly larger, integrated whole. They can neither be properly understood nor successfully or justifiably implemented in isolation. This is what many non-muslims tend to do.
How do you know that there will never be Halakha in Israel? . The fact is that these Laws exist, and there is a segment of the Jewish/Israeli public that is lobbying for the Talmudic/Halakha laws to be fully included in the Legal System. They already have bits and pieces under implementation already. This statement was made in 2009, what can we say, perhaps a few years down the road conservative Jewish politicians manage to persuade the government, or be elected as government. The world never thought that the conservative Hamas would be elected in Palestine - but they were. Amusing how you can vouch for Israel's future governments! You say it was okay in 1000 B.C. . . . why ? If these laws are cruel, they are cruel. Were the people living in 1000 B.C. lesser Humans? or did they deserve those punishments and we don't?
Again, interesting how you are so absolutely sure that the Israeli public would "never" allow such laws. The Israelis already allow a number of discriminatory "religious" laws to operate in Israel. Rabbis have a say and control over everything. Jewish Laws, Religion and Rabbis play an integral role in the lives of many Israelis today. Read about how Rabbis managed to turn the public against Foriegn Workers in Israel, using religion: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/tel-aviv-rabbis-renting-apartments-to-foreign-workers-violates-jewish-law-1.300815 - http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/tel-aviv-rabbis-renting-apartments-to-foreign-workers-violates-jewish-law-1.300815
Do us a favor by stop pretending to care about the poor Muslims living under supposed "Shariah" law. We don't need people (such as you) to tell us what is "Civilized" and what is not. Let us choose what we like for ourselves. How pompous ! Your comment reflects how much you "care" about Muslims. You obviously have some sort of deep hatred for Muslims & Islam.
Yes they are, they prefer to steal land and build a society on the blood of innocents.
India gained independence because the British Raj was facing financial difficulties and could no longer control their colonies. Which is why they slowly let the colonies go. India gained independence from the British looooong after those non-violent protests. All those protests did was get people killed under Latthi-Charge and Gun-Fire. Indians were massacred despite the non-violence. It didn't work. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 11:56am
From The Times
July 21, 2009
Non-Muslims turning to Sharia courts to resolve civil disputesFiona Hamilton, London Correspondenthttp://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6721158.ece - http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6721158.ece ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 12:07pm
| Chrysalis your previous posts were informative. Thank you |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 22 July 2010 at 4:39pm
|
All they have to do is what Mohandas Ghandhi did almost single-handedly
in India to achieve their independence, NON-VIOLENT PROTESTS. Well now we know that Larry is still in 7th grade history books from 30 years ago. I thought that too Larry, until I spent an entire semester studying Indian history in college. Now we can all understand Larry's statements. He is using text books from 30 years ago in middle school. Besides even if Larry read there are /were peaceful protests he would discount them. I am sure when Rachel Corrie got run over by a tank with no weapon she really did have an AK-47... ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 12:25am
|
I think I've heard quite a bit about "Islamic philosophy, theology and legal aspects" to last me a while. The point you make about Shariah not being an incompetent legal system because anything that makes it to a University can't be incompetent is just nonsense. University studies include various legal systems from Hitler's Nazi courtrooms to the "legal systems" of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Just because it's a subject in a classroom doesn't make it a ringing endorsement for whatever the subject is.
My point about the despicable practice of cutting hands and feet off, especially for a 13 year old kid shoplifting from a store is still my complete conviction. That is not a legal precedent that would ever make it in any Western legal system. If Islamic countries want to do that then I guess it's fine for them, it's no less barbaric but every country has a right to do what they want within their borders, even if it is heinous and morally wrong. I am college educated and I still maintain that your points were absurd and vile concerning the cutting off of various body parts. If that is the difference between Christians and Muslims then I have no problem with my support of Western legal systems that are based on law and precedent and due process. And Shariah has no place in this type of legal system, that's it. If you want to lop of body parts then knock yourself out, but we Christians are way past barbarisms like that. And if you don't like my opinions then don't read and respond to them. I don't need or want your "approval." |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 12:31am
|
You're an illiterate idiot who understands nothing from history. Because Mohandas Ghandhi used non-violent protests to end the British occupation of India somehow that's "ancient history" to you and no longer valid? For someone who "spent a semester studying Indian history" you sure didn't learn anything. That is exactly why the Palestinians are in the mess they are now, using logic, or the lack of it, like yours.
They can never get over their petty hatreds and revenge, and they deserve everything they get for constantly cutting off their noses to spite their faces. But your statements were probably the most ignorant that I have read on here for a while. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 12:38am
| Blah, blah, blah. You sound like a broken record and your citations are ludicrous and delusional...as usual. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 5:10am
|
Because Mohandas Ghandhi used non-violent protests to end the British
occupation of India somehow that's "ancient history" to you and no
longer valid? No, What I meant was that we learn the "popular" history that Ghandhi was responsible for Indian independence from high school (your version). If YOU knew any history you would know it was by far about economics. And also Larry, not that it matters. You are not a nice person. You put people down all the time if they disagree with you. If you hate Islam and Muslims why do you come here? ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 6:48am
|
Larry the example I used, my college educated friend was my interpretation as to why it is done, and why it is in public. I believe Chrysalis offered you some valuable insight on the conditions of punishment in Shariah Law. Now speaking about universities I really think you aren't educated cause if you were I personally wouldn't perceive your comments on Islam stinking of hateful "christian" websites. In college if you ever went to one, you are exposed to a variety of views amd beliefs.
College typically gives you an accurate and historical point of view of a particular belief and/culture. If you went to college depending on the curriculum, Islam is something you are exposed to and so all that pagan crap you mentioned is not taught to the millions of university students every year. You know Islam is a strict monotheistic faith and you know polytheism is rejected very much so mentioning rocks and idols and such is nonsense because regardless of what was in pre-Islam Arabia it is no more today-in college you'd learn that. Now switching to law schools. Now let say this with little difficulty as possible. The mentioning of hitler and other icons in schools are to teach students about events in moments of time. The teaching of Shariah to law students is not only for the purpose of its historical elements but the legal elements and how it is actually practiced in Muslim society. So if Shariah Law is so incompetent you don't teach students an incompetent legal system unless there is some benefit to future lawyers-yes Larry, the keyword here is benefit because you can't benefit an intelligent college graduate with an incompetent legal system. Shariah Law is a unique legal system which is why it is taught to future American lawyers. The fact that you can't humble yourself to at least admit you don't know shows your arrogance. If you did go to college (junior college doesn't count) you'd learn at least some of these things. If you did go to college as a tax paying citizen I'd like my money back |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 2:29pm
|
I don't "hate Islam and Muslims" I get irritated at the idiotic replies I get from some people. Your supposition that Ghandhi wasn't really the architect and moving force of Indian independence is simply ignorant. The "economic" forces that you are referring to came about as a result of the policies adopted by reformers who were inspired and led by Ghandhi.
And I really don't care if you think I'm not a nice person. I don't think you're all that either. |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 2:43pm
|
Shariah Law is a unique legal system which is why it is taught to future American lawyers."
You're right, Shariah is a "unique" legal system. It is so contrary and subjective as to have no legal meaning in the law at all. Your idea that it is taught to legal students, for anything other than to show how absurd it is, is similarly incompetent and lacking in any understanding of the American legal system, which really is a system, not a theologically-driven tribal justice st**idity that deserves to be cast into the dustbin of barbaric and retrograde ideas. |
Posted By: Gibbs
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 3:05pm
| Larry off topic question but what college did you go to? |
Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 23 July 2010 at 9:01pm
|
1. San Bernardino Valley College. San Bernardino, CA AA History
2. University of Redlands, Redlands, CA. 3. Univeristy of California-Riverside, Riverside, CA BA History/Archaeology |