Is Jesus really a Prophet?
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Topic: Is Jesus really a Prophet?
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Subject: Is Jesus really a Prophet?
Date Posted: 07 November 2010 at 11:54am
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This quote is from another thread but I think it is significant enough that I am making a separate thread here. I posit that Jesus cannot be a Prophet in Islam as follows: A. The Quran says Jesus was a prophet: B. Jesus prophesied his own crucifixion and death: From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Matt 16:21 C. The Quran says Jesus was not crucified and did not die" Therefore the Jesus of the Quran falsely prophesied His crucifixion and death and thus cannot be a prophet in Islam. |
Mansoor_ali wrote:Replies:
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 08 November 2010 at 2:05am
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To Egwpisteuw I agree Quran and Bible donot agree on same matters but it doesnot mean if Bible doesnot agree with Quran then Quran is wrong and Bible is not.For muslims Quran and Sunnah is scale not Bible and for christians their Bible is authority not Quran. Quran confirms only those things in the Bible which are accurate.Can you quote a verse from a Quran where Quran rejects messengership of Jesus Christ because according to you Jesus is not a Prophet in Islam? |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 08 November 2010 at 4:23am
There cannot be one truth for Muslims and another truth for Christians. Both groups, as well as all men, are subject to the same truth and it is incumbent on us all to diligently seek out and find the truth.
I am a student of both the Quran and the Bible. Both claim to be revelation from God and thus they must agree. Additionally, the Quran makes itself subordinate to the Bible in the exact same way that the NT makes itself subordinate to the OT. Thus, I am prefectly justified in juxtaposing the Quran with the Bible, drawing conculsions, and insisting those conclusions make sense. Am I not?
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 November 2010 at 3:14pm
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 09 November 2010 at 8:46am
If Jesus prophesied His death and crucifixion but did not die and was not crucified, than He cannot be a Prophet. ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 16 November 2010 at 10:11am
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To Egwpisteuw Quran is not subordinated to previous revelations.This is my first point. Secondly Jesus never prophesized his death due to crucifixion according to Quran but if Bible says it then we muslims cannot take such account reliable. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 November 2010 at 3:40pm
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Thanks Masoor for the answer, I was away for a few days.
Jazakallah.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 7:26am
Maybe a quote from Paul Watzlawick can resolve the matter: "The belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions." There can be more than one absolute spiritual truth, because spiritual truths are about beliefs, not scientific facts or first-order logic. Both the Quran and the Bible can be seen as spiritually true. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 12:01am
| Hello. Thought I would participate. The Quran is subject to the Bible as the older scriptures naturally have more credibility than any later interpretation. |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 2:17am
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This quote is from another thread but I think it is significant enough that I am making a separate thread here. I posit that Jesus cannot be a Prophet in Islam as follows: A. The Quran says Jesus was a prophet: B. Jesus prophesied his own crucifixion and death: From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Matt 16:21 C. The Quran says Jesus was not crucified and did not die" Therefore the Jesus of the Quran falsely prophesied His crucifixion and death and thus cannot be a prophet in Islam. Eqwpisteuw, not because the message of Muhammad (S) disagreed with what your bible says mean that Jesus (S) is not the prophet of Islam. All you did was to quote the disagreement of both books. Allah (S) informs us that the people of the book mix truth with false hood and conceal the truth: Ye People of the Book! Why do you mix truth with falsehood, and conceal the truth, while ye have knowledge. (Q.3:71) Then Allah (S) informs us this is the truth: And they said (in boast), �we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah�:- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157)
From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Matt 16:21 That statement was in relation to the prophesies of Jonah:�For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the wale�s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.� http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:40&version=9 - - Matt.12:40 . DID JONAS DIE IN THE WALE BELLY? NO! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the situation. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:35-39&version=9 - - Matt.26:35-39 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43&version=9 - - Luke 22:43 ) Jesus (S) said: �My soul� and not �flesh�, not his human side �flesh� but his spiritual side �soul.� He said in John 16: 32: Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am �not alone,� because the Father is �with me�. Also in John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. If the Father is �with him and in him�, what is the purpose of �sending an angel?� Do angels strengthen God? Or why the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him? The angel was assuring him what is going to happen. Did God Almighty answer his prayers? Let us examine what Jesus (S) says because all the disciples fled from the scene: And they all forsook him and fled. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=14&verse=50&version=9&context=verse - - Mark 14:50 ) Explain to me what this statement mean: �A little http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3397 - - while, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - - and ye http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2334 - - shall http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3756 - - not http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2334 - - see http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3165 - - me: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - - and http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3825 - - again, a little http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3397 - - while, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - - and ye shall http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3700 - - see http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3165 - - me, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3754 - - because http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1473 - - I http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5217 - - go http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4314 - - to the http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3962 - - Father. � John 16:16 (KJV) TNC
------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 3:03am
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Hi TNC,
Well, that should be enough to tell you that the Koran is false, because the disciples not a one of them boasted that they killed Christ the son of Mary. The books of the New Testament were written by the disciples. And none of them boasted about killing Jesus. In fact, where in the nt did anyone "boast" about killing Jesus? All through the New Testament, the message is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected from the dead -in whom we have the blessed hope of eternal life. |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 9:45am
I'll explain it. The Lord came forth from the Father as the first act prior to the creation. The Lord is God perceptible to his creation. Coming forth from the Father is what the term Son of God means. The Lord created everything. Adam and Eve were able to see and hear the Lord because he is God perceptible. 2000 years ago, the Lord entered this world to save man from their sins, by being born into the world as Jesus, son of Mary. Being the Son of Mary that made him the Son of Man as well as the Son of God which the Lord had been before there was any creation. Both the Lord and the Holy Spirit came forth out of the Father. It is like heat and light coming forth from a campfire. Here are the verses. In John 15:16, Jesus revealed that the Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father. John 15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: _____________________________________________________________ And in John 16:27, Jesus reveals that he came out from God, analogous to light coming out from campfire. In the text, please read the verse, Jesus says "I came forth from the Father and am come into the world". Of course, he is not speaking of himself being the son of Mary before coming into the world. He existed long before Mary and Abraham, and creation itself. He is speaking of himself as the Lord come into the world. Jesus in other verses reveals that he is from above, while we are from below, meaning that he came down from heaven, while we as men are of the earth. John 16:27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. The second part of the verse says... "I leave the world, and go to the Father"...meaning that after the resurrection, having completed the prime mission of having made it possible to have our sins removed through his shed blood, he is returning to heaven from where he came. That's why it says in the verse you ask to explain, it says he goes to the Father. And that's what he did, leaving this earth at the Mt. of Olives. When Jesus returns to this earth very near in the future, he is coming back as King of kings, and Lord of lords in great power and glory. He will return to the very spot he left this earth at the Mt. of Olives, not where Mohamed made up lies that he was not crucified but taken to heaven from the streets of Jerusalem... and someone else dying on the cross instead. That is preposterous. There is no truth in Mohamed. That is why God is going to destroy Islam in Ezekiel 38, as the Muslim armies invade Israel, having been deceived by Mohamed by the whole of the Koran. Doug L. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 10:43am
This is not a criteria my dear if this is a case then you must accept Hinduism and their Holy scriptures too.Because Hindu's scared scriptures are much older than Bible.Older doesnot mean reliable.You should investigate both Quran and Bible sincerely then come to the final conclusion. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 11:29am
No where in the entire Quran it is written that disciples of Jesus Christ killed Jesus Christ.
Another false assumption.No where it is written in any Gospels who is the author of particluar Gospel.You just rely on 'traditions' to explain the authorship of these Gospels.And what is the reliability of these traditions?
This is a serious problem with the Bible.It was not a message of Jesus Christ which you explain that Jesus died for our sins and then resurrected. It is illogical that someone died for our sins.It is quite contradictory to message of any Prophet including Jesus Christ. In the end i quote Ulfat-Aziz-us-Samad: ��To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice. |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 4:41pm
Im sorry my dear but Hinduism is not an Abramhic religion. The lineage of reliable truth began with Abraham. This then continued through the jewish prophets and then to the Messiah (Jesus), not Hindism. Messianic Judaism (Christianity) follows logically and prophetically from this foundation. Islam also does not follow this path logically or prophetically. |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 11:59pm
Hi Mansoor,  , the statement in the Koran is that those who killed Jesus boasted about it. Where is the nt is there any basis for that statement that those who killed Jesus boasted about it? Allah (S) informs us this is the truth: And they said (in boast), �we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah� |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 9:28am
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To David Now you are talking about Abramhic faith.What is Abramhic faith?what was a religion of Abraham?was he christian or jew?no where it is mentioned in Bible that he was a christian or a jew.But Quran tells us in Surah 3:64"Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists."So Abraham was a muslim.What is a meaning of muslim?muslim is one who surrendered himself unto God.Even Jesus Christ was not a jew or a christian.I donot think so it is written anywhere in the Bible that Jesus was a christian.He was a muslim and as i said muslim is one who submitted his/her will to God.Jesus Christ says in Matthew 7:22 "Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven."In this statement Jesus places emphasis on �the will of the Father�, submission of the human will to the will of God.This is a message of Islam. But when people deviated from the true message of Prophets(including Jesus and Moses) then they introduced their own theories and concepts and made a new religion as we can see in a case of Christianity and Judaism.So if you are a true follower of Jesus Christ then you must follow last Proophet,Prophet Muhammad. What was a basic message of Muhammad? Basic message of Muhammad was not different from message of Jesus Christ or anyother Prophet.The basic message was: 1.There is only 1 God and worship him alone.There is no such kind of concepts like trinity. 2.Belief in messengership/prophethood. 3.Belief in hereafter So Quran confirms the Bible(not current Bible),it confirms that Jesus was a Prophet,a Messiah.So it is our faith to have belief in Jesus Christ as a Prophet and Messiah.It is our faith to have belief that Jesus was revealed 'Injil'(injil is not your current Gospels). Now question is whether Muhammad is prophesized in your current Bible? There are many many debates and articles on this issue (which you can easily find at google.com) and they are still going on.But from my perspective it is not so much important for me whether Muhammad is mentioned in current Bible or not.There are some reasons for it: 1.The current Bible is not an original Bible which Quran talks about.It may be contain word of God but it also contains word of uninspired people. So you can analyze both Quran and Bible then you decide which way you want to follow.Quran doesnot force you or any1 to accept Islam.There is no compulsion in religion as Quran says in Surah 2:256 |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 2:57pm
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I agree. Abraham was not a Jew a Chriistian � or a Muslim. He was a Pagan from the ancient civilization of Sumer. Long before the law of Moses or the teachings of Jesus or religion of Mohamad. As a Pagan he probably worshiped the Sumerian pagan Moon god, but yes he was submitted and blessed by God. This however does not make him Muslim.
Prove to me that the Jews and Christians made a new religion! The Bible builds upon itself carefully and historically, generation by generation. The older automatically has more credibility over the later simply because there was previous truth and a continuity of historical revelation. I could start a new religion tomorrow and say it is the real truth and all previous truth was wrong. Would you then follow me?� I hope not! The Jewish religion is ancient and spread wide over the world. It would have been impossible for someone to introduce heresies. The writers of the New testament all wrote in the first generation after the death of Jesus, were eye witness observers and closer to the life Jesus than Mohamad who wrote the Quran 500 years later � so whose version should any one believe � of course the older eye witness accounts, not one written 500 years later. Also all New testament writers were martred terribly for their beliefs. Do you think they would have done this if they were liars or not totally sure? I don�t think so. The Torah contains the Messianic prophecies over thousands of years which line up with Jesus as the one promised Messiah. The Quran does not. Jesus was more than a prophet. He was the one and only Messiah the Most High Priest who made sacrifice for man kind allowing us all to become sons of God (inheritors) and priests of God. This was much more than just a prophet. Yes he preached the hereafter and yes Christians believe in only 1 God! The Trinity is simply a theological way to explain the multi dimensionality of God. It is not actually mentioned in the Bible. I don�t believe Mohamad was prophesied in the Bible. I have read many of these arguments too and I am not convinced he was prophesied. Yes Christians believe the Bible is only inspired, not word for word true, as you do with the Quran. That is the difference between Messianic Judaism (Christianity) and Islam. Revelation for us is based on relationship with God while Islam is based on following rituals and a formula. |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 27 November 2010 at 10:57pm
Hi Mansoor, original Bible? If the above statement is true, then where is a copy of the original new testament that is not corrupted? I challenge Muslims to produce a copy of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that fits with Islam's claim that Jesus was not crucified and raised from the dead. All books in the nt are based upon Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection. But I will make it simple and just ask for the four "uncorrupted" gospels. Doug L. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 28 November 2010 at 10:59am
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Hi Mansoor, Smile, the statement in the Koran is that those who killed Jesus boasted about it. Where is the nt is there any basis for that statement that those who killed Jesus boasted about it? Allah (S) informs us this is the truth: And they said (in boast), �we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah� Response I just responded to your false claim that Quran says that "disciples" of Jesus Christ killed Jesus.As i said no where it is written in the entire Quran that "diciples" killed Jesus.Surah 4:157 is not talking about disciples of Jesus Christ.It is talking about Jews.Because we know (and the Bible also agree with me) that Jews wanted to kill Jesus Christ.We know history of Jewish people very well.Jewish people also killed many Prophets such as John the Baptist.So my argument is it was not disciples who boasted but Jewish people. Allah knows best. Hi Mansoor, original Bible? If the above statement is true, then where is a copy of the original new testament that is not corrupted? I challenge Muslims to produce a copy of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that fits with Islam's claim that Jesus was not crucified and raised from the dead. All books in the nt are based upon Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection. But I will make it simple and just ask for the four "uncorrupted" gospels. Response If you ask the same question about the "original" copies of the Mark,Matthew,Luke,John from your scholars then they will tell you that these copies never existed today.These original copies are lost and distorted.What you have today it is just copies of the copies but original are lost.And these is also question mark about the authorship of Gospels.Gospels which were not written at the time of Jesus Christ cannot be easily trusted.Gospels were written by disciples?It is another topic of debate among christians.For example Gospel of John,it is commonly believed that it is written by John son of Zebedee but there are others who donot agree with this claim.For example,christian scholar from Pakistan by the name of Barakatullah doesnot agree that it was written by John.According to Baraktullah it was written by John the Elder not John son of Zebedee. So definitely i have not original documents even not a single christian can claim that he/her has original documents.But yes i use the Quran as a standard to evaluate the current Bible.So my benchmark is Quran not Bible.Just as your benchmark is Bible not Quran. But there were many people in the christian history who had different theories regarding the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.For example brother Abdullah Kareem said in his article: ...The early Gnostic sects believed it was Simon of Cyrene who resembled Jesus and crucified.The Basilidans [Basilides] believed that someone else was substituted for him.The Docetae [Docetism] held that Christ never had a real physical or natural body, but only an apparent or phantom body, and that his Crucifixion was only apparent, not real.The Marcionite Gospel (about A.D. 138) [Marcion] denied that Jesus was born, and merely said that he appeared in human form. The Gospel of St. Barnabas supported the theory of substitution on the Cross... ...The Cerinthians and later the Basilidians, for example, who were among the first of the early Christian communities, denied that Jesus was crucified...The Carpocratians, another early Christian sect, believed that it was not Jesus who was crucified, but another in his place... |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 28 November 2010 at 3:15pm
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I agree. Abraham was not a Jew a Chriistian � or a Muslim. He was a Pagan from the ancient civilization of Sumer. Long before the law of Moses or the teachings of Jesus or religion of Mohamad. As a Pagan he probably worshiped the Sumerian pagan Moon god, but yes he was submitted and blessed by God. This however does not make him Muslim. Response I cannot say precisely whether he ever worshiped Moon-god or not.But 1 thing is sure and you also agree with me that he was blessed by God and this is my point which i want to clarify.If Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian then why you are a Christian?Because our forefather(Abraham) was not a Christian or a jew.Now question is whether he was a muslim?Again i want to make it clear that muslim is one who submitted his will to God.It is not a tag which is only attached to me.In the Bible Jesus also stressed upon submitting your will to God(Matthew 7:22).If anyone submitt his/her will to God then he/she is a muslim.Today how can you submit your will to God,simply follow his instruction(Quran).Abraham submitted his will to God and followed his instructions thats why he is a muslim.Same case with other Prophets including Jesus Christ. Prove to me that the Jews and Christians made a new religion! The Bible builds upon itself carefully and historically, generation by generation. The older automatically has more credibility over the later simply because there was previous truth and a continuity of historical revelation. I could start a new religion tomorrow and say it is the real truth and all previous truth was wrong. Would you then follow me?� I hope not! Response Muhammad never said that he came to start a new religion.Quran never say that Islam is a new religion.Even Quran confirms the previous revelations.It is a misconception among you.Quran says that it is a same religion(Islam) which was followed by Prophets before Muhammad.Muhammad is not a founder of Islam.Religion of Jesus and other Prophets was the religion of submission to God known in Arabic as Islam.Muslims are not called Mohammedan but muslim.Islam is absolute religion which exists from the day one of the mankind.So if anyone accepts Islam then it doesnot mean he/she rejects Jesus,Moses,Abraham,Injil,Torah.Because Quran confirms Injil,Torah etc.But yes Quran confirms only those teachings in current Bible which are authentic and reliable.So disciples of Jesus and disciples of Moses were not christians and jews respectively but muslims.When people deviated from true message of Jesus and Moses then they introduced Christianity and Judaism.I donot think so Jesus in Bible ever called his disciples "Christians".Because he was not come to create a new religion.He came so that people followed the exact way of God Almighty which jews at that time forgot.So when people completely forgot the message of Prophets then God send another Prophet by the name of Muhammad.And it is a last chance for humanity to follow or not to follow. The Jewish religion is ancient and spread wide over the world. It would have been impossible for someone to introduce heresies. The writers of the New testament all wrote in the first generation after the death of Jesus, were eye witness observers and closer to the life Jesus than Mohamad who wrote the Quran 500 years later � so whose version should any one believe � of course the older eye witness accounts, not one written 500 years later. Response I donot claim that everything in NT or OT neither wrong nor correct.Now you are talking about eye-witness.I give you a little example.If writers were eye-witness then we cannot expect that they will do a simple mistake about a same event.For example,In Mark 4:39-40 Jesus firstly stopped the storm then he rebuked the disciples while Matthew 8:26 says that Jesus firstly rebuked the disciples then he stopped the storm.Two stories are not exactly same.I cannot expect such kind of simple mistake by eyewitnesses.Now this mistake raises a question about authenticity of eyewitnesses.Another problem is Mark 16:9-20.There is a still debate among christians whether Mark 16:9-20 is a genuine part of Mark or not.Some christians favor it but other oppose it.I think writers were not inspired but even if they were eye-witness but still they were not inspired as Jesus Christ was inspired because he was a Prophet.They tried hard to write,collect about life of Jesus but still they did a mistake in collecting and writing.They also collected a right stuff as well as wrong stuff.Regarding Quran,Quran is a very different from Bible in a matter of compilation.If you are interested to know about history of Quran then you can click: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/quran/scriptq.htm - History of the Quran by Maulana Maududi Also all New testament writers were martred terribly for their beliefs. Do you think they would have done this if they were liars or not totally sure? I don�t think so. The Torah contains the Messianic prophecies over thousands of years which line up with Jesus as the one promised Messiah. The Quran does not. Response If OT talks about Jesus Christ then it is not a problem for me because we already believe in Jesus as a Messiah but it is a problem for jews who still reject his messengership and his messianic prophecies.Now you talked persecution.Because they were true believers of Jesus Christ,they were true muslims thats why they were badly martred.Even companions of Prophet Muhammad (and Muhammad himself) were subjected to abuse and persecution before migrating to Medina.Thats why Jesus said "A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country" Same with Prophet Muhammad,firstly he was not recognized by his own people where he spent 40years of his life.when Muhammad didnot announce his Prophethood those same people called him "Al-Amin" meaning "trustworthy". Now question is:NT written by original disciples of Jesus?NT contains words of Christ,disciples,historians etc.NT is a mixture of these things.For example who is the author of Mark,Matthew,luke and John?Dr Bart Ehrman (new NT scholar) in his debate with William Craig said: "...The Gospels were written 35 to 65 years after Jesus' death -- 35 or 65 years after his death, not by people who were eyewitnesses, but by people living later. The Gospels were written by highly literate, trained, Greek-speaking Christians of the second and third generation. They're not written by Jesus' Aramaic-speaking followers. They're written by people living 30, 40, 50, 60 years later. Where did these people get their information from? I should point out that the Gospels say they're written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But that's just in your English Bible. That's the title of these Gospels, but whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew didn't call it the Gospel of Matthew. Whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew simply wrote his Gospel, and somebody later said it's the Gospel according to Matthew. Somebody later is telling you who wrote it. The titles are later additions. These are not eyewitness accounts. So where did they get their stories from..." Jesus was more than a prophet. He was the one and only Messiah the Most High Priest who made sacrifice for man kind allowing us all to become sons of God (inheritors) and priests of God. This was much more than just a prophet. Yes he preached the hereafter and yes Christians believe in only 1 God! The Trinity is simply a theological way to explain the multi dimensionality of God. It is not actually mentioned in the Bible. Response Brother if trinity is not mentioned in the Bible then why you follow it?No where Jesus says God is 3 in 1.No where he says worship me.He simply says God is 1 and worship him alone(Matthew 4:8-10) When you say that Jesus is more than a Prophet then you remind me a verse of the Quran where Allah says "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion..." Surah 4:171 .So trinity is not a right concept.So yes Jesus was a Messiah but what does it mean he was more than a Prophet?I think you are talking about crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don�t believe Mohamad was prophesied in the Bible. I have read many of these arguments too and I am not convinced he was prophesied. Yes Christians believe the Bible is only inspired, not word for word true, as you do with the Quran. That is the difference between Messianic Judaism (Christianity) and Islam. Revelation for us is based on relationship with God while Islam is based on following rituals and a formula. Response Well i am not here to convince you.It is not upto me to convice you.I am here just to teach you what Quran is(whatever i know about it i will deliver). I think Bible is also a book of rituals.For example,Bible talks about prayer in many places e.g in Matthew 6:6,Matthew 21:22,Rom 8:26,Phil 4:6,I Thess 5:17 etc. Bible talks about Fasting in Acts 13:2,14:23,Matthew 6:6-18,Matthew 6:5-7,Mark 2:18-20,Luke 5:33-35. |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 2:54am
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Mansoor: So my argument is it was not disciples who boasted but Jewish people. Doug: And my argument is that it is not in the nt that the Jews boasted after the crucifixion about having killed Jesus. ______________________________________________________________ Doug: Hi Mansoor, original Bible? If the above statement is true, then where is a copy of the original new testament that is not corrupted? I challenge Muslims to produce a copy of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that fits with Islam's claim that Jesus was not crucified and raised from the dead. All books in the nt are based upon Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection. But I will make it simple and just ask for the four "uncorrupted" gospels. Mansoor: .... So definitely i have not original documents even not a single christian can claim that he/her has original documents.But yes i use the Quran as a standard to evaluate the current Bible.So my benchmark is Quran not Bible.Just as your benchmark is Bible not Quran. Doug: ...but Muslims use the Christian new testament to claim that mohamed is the Comforter that Jesus talked about in the gospel of John. Mohamed claims that Allah preserves his word, yet the only word preserved is the Christian text, as found in the King James bible. How can muslims claim that Allah preserves his word when there is no "uncorrupted" version? Doug L. |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 3:34am
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Mansoor:...... Muhammad never said that he came to start a new religion.Quran never
say that Islam is a new religion.Even Quran confirms the previous
revelations.It is a misconception among you.Quran says that it is a same
religion(Islam) which was followed by Prophets before Muhammad. Doug: If Islam is not a new religion, then why the Haaj, the Kaaba, praying five times a day facing Mecca ? Those things are not part of either Judaism or Christianity, or something that Jesus did, nor Moses, nor any of the persons in the bible. Doug L. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 7:23am
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I am going to read again Gospel of Mark in my own http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu - Urdu language so i will be absent for few days.I want to read NT. Thanks |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:57am
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Gods Blessings to you Mansoor.
Thanks for your reply. I will get back to you. May our search continue! David |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 1:43pm
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Thanks David. Sorry brother Douggg i cannot write a response because i am little bit a tired at that time and surely want to read Mark. |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 9:49pm
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To Mansoor Gods Blessings to you! Your reply I cannot say precisely whether he ever worshiped Moon-god or not. But 1 thing is sure and you also agree with me that he was blessed by God and this is my point which i want to clarify. If Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian then why you are a Christian? Because our forefather(Abraham) was not a Christian or a jew. Now question is whether he was a muslim? Again i want to make it clear that muslim is one who submitted his will to God. It is not a tag which is only attached to me. In the Bible Jesus also stressed upon submitting your will to God(Matthew 7:22).If anyone submitt his/her will to God then he/she is a muslim. Today how can you submit your will to God, simply follow his instruction(Quran).Abraham submitted his will to God and followed his instructions thats why he is a muslim. Same case with other Prophets including Jesus Christ. My response Because he was submitted to God then that makes him a Muslim? If I am submitted to God that makes me Muslim ? If that makes you feel better then that�s good. However this does not make sense to me. Abraham was pagan and lived before Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad. Abraham was blessed but had only an imperfect or incomplete revelation of God . He only carried the seed of Gods truth. Your reply Muhammad never said that he came to start a new religion. Quran never say that Islam is a new religion. Even Quran confirms the previous revelations. It is a misconception among you. Quran says that it is a same religion(Islam) which was followed by Prophets before Muhammad. Muhammad is not a founder of Islam. Religion of Jesus and other Prophets was the religion of submission to God known in Arabic as Islam. Muslims are not called Mohammedan but muslim. Islam is absolute religion which exists from the day one of the mankind. So if anyone accepts Islam then it does not mean he/she rejects Jesus, My Response Again like I said above if I am submitted that makes me Muslim? Like I said if that makes you feel better that�s good. However like I said it does not make sense to me. Besides the Quaran contradicts itself on this. So who was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37] ??? Your reply Moses, Abraham, Injil, Torah. Because Quran confirms Injil, Torah etc. But yes Quran confirms only those teachings in current Bible which are authentic and reliable. My Response You haven�t proved the authenticity or trustworthiness of the Quran to me. I believe the Quaran is faulty. So the standard you use to judge the Tanackh (Old Tetament) and the New Testament is faulty. Again it is the previous revelation that judges the latter not the other way around. You question the trustworthiness if the New Testament. I believe it impossible for it to be changed without history crying out and recording it ! Even if someone had the desire to change it, the task would have been impossible. A conspiracy to change the New Testament would require several steps: 1. Gather every possible copy of the original New Testament and burn them. By the fourth century the New Testament was in the Greek, Syriac, Coptic, Latin, Gothic and Ethiopic languages. Christendom itself extended beyond these tongues into places as far removed as Britain, Armenia, half way down the coast of East Africa and all the way to India. There was no circle of people powerful enough to seize every single copy of the Scriptures in every church in the world to falsify the New Testament. At this time in history there were many independent Christian churches and under the jurisdiction of no human being. Many of these churches were outside the realm of the Roman empire. We have manuscripts and fragments from the New Testament which are older than AD 325. Did the conspirators also forge these? 2. Forcibly change the practices and beliefs of Christians from around the world. To make the new New Testament accepted, the conspirators would have had to force believers to adopt new customs and ceremonies such as communion (symbolic of the crucifixion of Jesus), baptism (symbolic of the forgiveness of sins in Christ), and religious belief in the Cross. What were the older ceremonies? Why do we have no record of them? How could anyone bring about such a dramatic change without any evidence of controversy? Currently 5800 fragments and partial copies exist. How many more would there have been back then that would have needed to be destroyed or changed by this small group of conspirators? I don�t believe that history would not have recorded this attempt by the conspirators. 3, Remove all traces of the original New Testament. Not only were there the copies of the New Testament, but many writers had already quoted extensively from it in the first, second and third centuries. We know of over 32,000 of these quotations! If the conspirators were going to make their job perfect, they needed to find and destroy any writings that quoted from the original New Testament, replacing them with quotations from the new and corrupt one. This is all impossible. In the way Muslims would have us believe, a conspiracy against the original teachings of Jesus had to completely reconstruct a fraudulent history and convince the rest of the world it was true. The job was obviously so good and perfect that the only ones to discover it were Muslims and a handful or conspiracy theorists. Where is the evidence ? Your reply So disciples of Jesus and disciples of Moses were not christians and jews respectively but muslims. When people deviated from true message of Jesus and Moses then they introduced Christianity and Judaism. I do not think so Jesus in Bible ever called his disciples "Christians". My Response In regards to the name Christian, you are correct. The name Christian (�Christ One�) did not start until a few years later in Antioch Syria. Before that the first believers as Jews saw themselves as Messianic Jews. (Jews who believed in The Messiah of prophesy) Your reply Because he was not come to create a new religion. My Response I agree. He said he had not come to create a new religion but rather to fulfill the old. He is the fulfillment. The Mosaic law was simply symbolic of HIM. He came so that people followed the exact way of God Almighty which Jews at that time forgot. So when people completely forgot the message of Prophets then God send another Prophet by the name of Muhammad. And it is a last chance for humanity to follow or not to follow. My Response Show me where and when the Jews forgot the �exact way�! I read the commentary by Maulana Maududi on this forum and I�m not convinced. See my reasons why on that discussion thread if you like. The life and teachings of Mohammad do not line up with the Messianic prophesies and as a result he is not trustworthy. Your reply I do not claim that everything in NT or OT neither wrong nor correct. Now you are talking about eye-witness. I give you a little example. If writers were eye-witness then we cannot expect that they will do a simple mistake about a same event. For example, In Mark 4:39-40 Jesus firstly stopped the storm then he rebuked the disciples while Matthew 8:26 says that Jesus firstly rebuked the disciples then he stopped the storm. Two stories are not exactly same. I cannot expect such kind of simple mistake by eyewitnesses. Now this mistake raises a question about authenticity of eyewitnesses. My response Eye witness accounts can vary and copies are not always perfect . However the new testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies were made over a huge geographical area stretching east to west from India to Britain and North to south from Armenia to Ethiopia and beyond. More copies exist today than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others ancient historical figures. Remember Christians see scripture as Simply God inspired. I would be more suspicious if everything lined up perfectly because that would be too good to be true. Eye witness accounts usually do not totally line up with each other. Try it on your friends or family some time! If what you say is true and someone changed the New Testament then it would be more likely these corrupters would have got together to collude and get their stories straight. These slight differences actually add credibility in my mind. Also please see the quote and the web link below that discusses the reliability of the Bible. Your reply Another problem is Mark 16:9-20.There is a still debate among christians whether Mark 16:9-20 is a genuine part of Mark or not. Some christians favor it but other oppose it. I think writers were not inspired but even if they were eye-witness but still they were not inspired as Jesus Christ was inspired because he was a Prophet. They tried hard to write, collect about life of Jesus but still they did a mistake in collecting and writing. They also collected a right stuff as well as wrong stuff. Regarding Quran, Quran is a very different from Bible in a matter of compilation. If you are interested to know about history of Quran then you can click: History of the Quran by Maulana Maududi My Response Bibles are quite open about the controversies around Mark 16.9 � 20. Most bibles contain this fact. This adds credibility to the Bible because it shows it has nothing to hide and is not trying to covering any secret. As a follower of God I know that at times I have been inspired and at periods of time I have felt no inspiration from God. At other times it was only looking back in time at an event that I came to see that God was actually using me or was close to me. I just didn�t see it at the time! The isse with Mark was not with the original but with the copyies. Some ancient copies had only the shorter version, some only had the longer and others had both the long and short versions included. There has been much debate within Christianity if different copies have done this accidentally or intentionally. Basically its not important because it does not challenge any fundamental belief of Jesus as The Messiah. Also the last chapter of Mark can be cross referenced for reliability with Mathew 28.16 Mathew 28.9 Luke 24.13 -35 Luke 24. 36-49 Luke 24.50 � 53 John 20.19 -23. Below is a quote as a typical Christian response to those that question the reliability of the New testament. Its from a group called Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries. Ive also included a link http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html �There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now. There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability. The Variants in the New Testament manuscripts are minimal. The many thousands of manuscript copies we possess of the New Testament, scholars have discovered that there are some 150,000 "variants. "This may seem like a staggering figure to the uninformed mind. But to those who study the issue, the numbers are not so damning as it may initially appear. Indeed, a look at the hard evidence shows that the New Testament manuscripts are amazingly accurate and trustworthy. To begin, we must emphasize that out of these 150,000 variants, 99 percent hold virtually no significance whatsoever. Many of these variants simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"); some may involve the absence of one or more insignificant words. When all the facts are put on the table, only about 50 of the variants have any real significance - and even then, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is effected by them. For more than ninety-nine percent of the cases the original text can be reconstructed to a practical certainty. Even in the few cases where some perplexity remains, this does not impinge on the meaning of Scripture to the point of clouding a tenet of the faith or a mandate of life. By practicing the science of textual criticism - comparing all the available manuscripts with each other - we can come to an assurance regarding what the original document must have said. Let us suppose we have five manuscript copies of an original document that no longer exists. Each of the manuscript copies are different. Our goal is to compare the manuscript copies and ascertain what the original must have said. Here are the five copies: Manuscript #1: Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole worl. Manuscript #2: Christ Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. Manuscript #3: Jesus Christ s the Savior of the whole world. Manuscript #4: Jesus Christ is th Savior of the whle world. Manuscript #5: Jesus Christ is the Savor of the whole wrld. Could you, by comparing the manuscript copies, ascertain what the original document said with a high degree of certainty that you are correct? Of course you could. This illustration may be extremely simplistic, but a great majority of the 150,000 variants are solved by the above methodology. By comparing the various manuscripts, all of which contain very minor differences like the above, it becomes fairly clear what the original must have said. Most of the manuscript variations concern matters of spelling, word order, tenses, and the like; no single doctrine is affected by them in any way. We must also emphasize that the sheer volume of manuscripts we possess greatly narrows the margin of doubt regarding what the original biblical document said. If the number of [manuscripts] increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. Comparing the Bible to Other Ancient Writings. By comparing the manuscript support for the Bible with manuscript support for other ancient documents and books, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that no other ancient piece of literature can stand up to the Bible. Manuscript support for the Bible is unparalleled! There are more New Testament manuscripts copied with greater accuracy and earlier dating than for any secular classic from ancient history. The average gap between the original composition and the earliest copy is over 1,000 years for other books. The New Testament, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph [original manuscript], most of the New Testament in less than 200 years, and the entire New Testament within 250 years from the date of its completion. The degree of accuracy of the copies is greater for the New Testament than for other books that can be compared. Most books do not survive with enough manuscripts that make comparison possible. From this documentary evidence, then, it is clear that the New Testament writings are superior to comparable ancient writings. "The records for the New Testament are vastly more abundant, clearly more ancient, and considerably more accurate in their text." Support for the New Testament from the Church Fathers As noted at the beginning of this chapter, in addition to the many thousands of New Testament manuscripts, there are over 86,000 quotations of the New Testament in the early church fathers. There are also New Testament quotations in thousands of early church worship books. There are enough quotations from the early church fathers that even if we did not have a single copy of the Bible, scholars could still reconstruct all but 11 verses of the entire New Testament from material written within 150 to 200 years from the time of Christ. Also the Quaran also has its own contradictions. These contradictions are more serious for Islam compared to Christianity because while Christians view scripture as merely God inspired, Muslims believe their scripture to be from God word for word ! See below for some examples of contradictions - 1.Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses. 2.Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc. 3.Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51]. 4.Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad? Allah had supposedly sent warners to every people [10:47, 16:35-36, 35:24], Abraham and Ishmael are specifically claimed to have visited Mecca and built the Kaaba [2:125-129]. Yet, Muhammad supposedly is sent to a people who never had a messenger before [28:46, 32:3, 34:44, 36:2-6]. This article also raises other issues: What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs? What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael? Etc. 5.What will be the food for the people in Hell? The food for the people in Hell will be only "Dhari" [Sura 88:6], or only foul pus from the washing of wounds [S. 69:36], or will they also get to eat from the tree of Zaqqum [S. 37:66]? Together, these verses constitute three contradictions. 6.Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11]. These contradictions are more serious for Islam compared to Christianity because while Christians view scripture as merely God inspired, Muslims believe their scripture to be from God word for word ! Your reply If OT talks about Jesus Christ then it is not a problem for me because we already believe in Jesus as a Messiah My Response I don�t think you don�t understand the meaning of Messiah. The Messiah is The One, the only promised one to all humanity. He is the fulfillment of the whole of the Torah. Even if you do believe in him by following the laws or Mohammad you are missing out on the blessings he has available to you. The link below lists the OT prophesies about the Messiah. http://www.allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecy.htm Your reply but it is a problem for jews who still reject his messengership and his messianic prophecies. Now you talked persecution. Because they were true believers of Jesus Christ, they were true muslims thats why they were badly martred. My Response But these were the same people you said were not reliable. You are contradicting yourself. Your reply Even companions of Prophet Muhammad (and Muhammad himself) were subjected to abuse and persecution before migrating to Medina. Thats why Jesus said "A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country" Same with Prophet Muhammad, firstly he was not recognized by his own people where he spent 40years of his life. when Muhammad did not announce his Prophethood those same people called him "Al-Amin" meaning "trustworthy". My Response Compare the life of Jesus with that of Mohamad. Jesus was a man of peace while Mohammad a man of war. Jesus was pure sexually- an unmarried Rabbi, but yet able to relate to women beautifully and naturally. Mohammad had many wives. And is it true that in his 50s he married a 7 year old girl and is said to have beaten her? Your reply Now question is: NT written by original disciples of Jesus? NT contains words of Christ, disciples, historians etc. NT is a mixture of these things. For example who is the author of Mark, Matthew, luke and John? Dr Bart Ehrman (new NT scholar) in his debate with William Craig said: "...The Gospels were written 35 to 65 years after Jesus' death -- 35 or 65 years after his death, not by people who were eyewitnesses, but by people living later. The Gospels were written by highly literate, trained, Greek-speaking Christians of the second and third generation. They're not written by Jesus' Aramaic-speaking followers. They're written by people living 30, 40, 50, 60 years later. Where did these people get their information from? I should point out that the Gospels say they're written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But that's just in your English Bible. That's the title of these Gospels, but whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew didn't call it the Gospel of Matthew. Whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew simply wrote his Gospel, and somebody later said it's the Gospel according to Matthew. Somebody later is telling you who wrote it. The titles are later additions. These are not eyewitness accounts. So where did they get their stories from..." My response Mark is the earliest gospel and there are indications that the writers of the other gospels used it and another lost document (called the Q document) to help reference their own eye witness accounts. The Gospel of Mark does not identify its writer but it is thought its based on the eye witness account of Peter. We know that apart from Luke they were all Jews. We know the writer of the Book of Acts is the same writer as the Gospel of Luke and from the book of Acts and Pauls letters it is probable Luke wrote The Gospel of Luke. The Gospel of Luke states it is based on eye witness accounts. With the gospel of Mathew, also known as the Gospel of the Hebrews there is some dispute as to whether he wrote it or whether it was someone else recording Mathews eye witness report. It is the most Jewish of all the Gospels in its theme and also is the only one written in Aramaic as opposed to Greek. All we know about the Gospel of John is that it was written by �The Beloved Disciple�. That means who wrote it was loved very much by Jesus and knew him very well, obviously it would have been an eye witness account. That lines up with the relationship Jesus had with John in the gospels plus in style and content in is very close to the three letters of John also in the NT. Palaeography is the science of dating ancient manuscripts and the consensus of experts is that all the gospels are based in the First Century AD. A good piece of advice is �Do not start with modern "authorities" and then move to the documents to see if the authorities were right. Begin with the documents themselves�. I had never heard of Bart Ehrman before you mentioned him. Looking on wikipaedia he appears to have been from a typical evangelical nominal cultural Christian background where he accepted what he was told instead of having a real and powerful experience of God. Once they start thinking for themselves without a real God experience they usually move to liberal unorthodox type of Christianity. Unfortunately this is common in Christian society. Some people dare to swim into the deeper waters more than others. Looking at the below link you will see Islam also has its unorthodox believers that appear to dispute orthodox Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Heretics_Conference Your reply Brother if trinity is not mentioned in the Bible then why you follow it? My response This does not have to be a difficult issue! The sun gives light. The sun gives heat. The sun is one. The God I follow is ONE. However God is the source of all creativity and beauty on earth He has infinite dimensions. God has a plurality but IS ONE. Verses from the Jewish Tanakh ( the 5 books of the Torah, Books of the Prophets and The Writings ( Old Testament ) that line up with God having a plural nature are many, for example- Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Or Genesis 3:22 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." But from all this multi aspect tp Gods Onesness the Tanakh does imply 3 aspects to the Higher God Head eg. Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. I purposely quoted the Tanakh (Old testament) to show this is just not a Christian idea but and ancient Jewish one. However after all of this both Jews and Christians still believe God IS ONE ! Your reply No where Jesus says God is 3 in 1. My response Actually he did. See John 1 .26 �But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.� Also John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. Your reply No where he says worship me. My Response But Jesus said in John 32 �But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." This means all humanity will look to him. Your reply He simply says God is 1 and worship him alone (Matthew 4:8-10) When you say that Jesus is more than a Prophet then you remind me a verse of the Quran where Allah says "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion..." Surah 4:171 So trinity is not a right concept. So yes Jesus was a Messiah but what does it mean he was more than a Prophet? I think you are talking about crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. My response Again Mansoor I�m not sure that you know what the term Messiah means. The crucifixion and resurrection was part of these ancient predicted prophesies, yes. But the prophesies make it clear Jesus was more than just a prophet. He was the Most High Priest and the one prophesied in the Tanakh (the 5 books of the Torah, Books of the Prophets and The Writings � what Christians call the and Old Testament). What that means is that he was The One � The Chosen Anointed One, The Savior for all of mankind. I believe in the Messianic prophesies. If the Quaran does not line up with these earlier Messianic prophesies from the Tanakh (Old Testament) then the Quaran is wrong. Again if you look at the previous link I sent (below) it will show you where these prophesies were from the Tanakh (Old Testament) http://www.allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecy.htm Your reply Well i am not here to convince you.It is not upto me to convice you.I am here just to teach you what Quran is(whatever i know about it i will deliver). I think Bible is also a book of rituals. For example, Bible talks about prayer in many places e.g in Matthew 6:6,Matthew 21:22,Rom 8:26,Phil 4:6,I Thess 5:17 etc.Bible talks about Fasting in Acts 13:2,14:23,Matthew 6:6-18,Matthew 6:5-7,Mark 2:18-20,Luke 5:33-35. My response Christians are led by Gods spirit as to when to pray and fast. There is no formula of set times. Unlike the set fasts like Ramadan, paying pilgrimage at a set time of the year to walk around an ancient pagan idol meteorite rock 7 times pointing, or to recite your prayers 5 times a day at set times facing a certain geographical direction, etc. etc,etc. Gods Blessings to You Mansoor David |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 11:39pm
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Mr. Dougg, LET US READ IN CONTEXT AND SEE HOW JESUS (s) MAKE YOU A FOOL: Jesus (S) said: ��A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.� http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016&version=9 - (KJV) Then some of the disciples were enquiring what he meant: 17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, �Because I go to the Father?� Now, Jesus (S) explained: 19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, �A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?� In V.20to 32, Christians understood it to mean �the death and resurrection�. So, when he said: �Because I go to the Father� that is referring to his death. It read as follows: 20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. 32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. Which �hour� he is talking? The �hour� of �going to the Father� In that chapter, Christians understand �Because I go to the Father� to mean �the death and resurrection�. We Muslims understand it to mean the sign that was promises to the Jews when Jesus (S) said in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:40&version=9 - - Matt.12:40 :�For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the wale�s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.�. DID JONAS DIE IN THE WALE BELLY? NO! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the situation. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:35-39&version=9 - - Matt.26:35-39 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43&version=9 - - Luke 22:43 ) Jesus (S) said: �My soul� and not �flesh�, not his human side �flesh� but his spiritual side �soul.� He said in John 16: 32: Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am �not alone,� because the Father is �with me�. Also in John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. If the Father is �with him and in him�, what is the purpose of �sending an angel?� Do angels strengthen God? Or why the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him? The angel was assuring him what is going to happen. Did God Almighty answer his prayers? Let us examine what Jesus (S) says because all the disciples fled from the seen. And they all forsook him and fled. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=14&verse=50&version=9&context=verse - - Mark 14:50 ) After the suppose Crucifixion: And when she (Mary Magdalene) had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and she knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener... ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:14-15&version=9 - - John 20:14-15 ) Mary knew Jesus (S) all through his ministry and within a day and a half she did not recognize him, she took him for a gardener, why? Is it another man �the gardener� God Almighty substitute instead of Jesus (S) and place a spirit (Rooh) upon him to act as Jesus (S)? I suppose, if a Christians saw the so call photo of Jesus (s) now and after twenty years they would recognize it, is that a fact? O Yes! Even the disciples did not know him: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:4&version=9 - - John 21:4 ��But the disciples knew him not that it was Jesus.� Why? Because it was not him! Qur�an conforms that: But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture� (Q.4:157) Mary didn�t recognize him nether the Disciples. As the Qur�an rightly said: �There are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge� Behold! Allah said: �O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme... (Q.3:55) The question is when did it happen? Is it possible when Jesus was at Gethsemane, because all the disciples were asleep which also indicate it was night too (see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%20%2026:40&version=9 - ) and that is where they laid hold on him (the supposed Jesus: the Gardiner) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%20%2026:57&version=9 - . May be, Allah (S) has placed a Spirit (Rooh) on him (the gardener) to act as Jesus (S). Of course, it was night and no one had that in mind [that Allah (S) will replace him with another man �the gardener� who Mary recognizes as. Allah (S) said: �And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planner is Allah! (Q.3:54) To be more certain is not Jesus (S) we can look at the accounts of John when they were about to capture him: It is mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2018:1-8&version=9 - - John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with the disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a �GARDEN,� into which he entered, and his disciples. V.3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. V.4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye? V.5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, the went backward, and fell on the ground. V.7 Then ask he them again, whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. V.8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way. You see, they didn�t �RECOGNIZE� the man to be Jesus (S) they were asking for Jesus of Nazareth, Why? Because he was not there! V.4 says that: �Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?� Think about it, Jesus was asking them �whom seek ye?� and what they said? V.5 �They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth.� why? Because they didn�t recognize him as Jesus (S) and he was just in front of them, and the suppose Jesus �the gardener� according to Mary in John 20:15 where she supposing him to be the gardener said: �I am he�. And what happen after that? V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell on the ground. Why? They were shock to know that they man whom they were looking for was right in front of them and they fall back, because they didn�t recognize him. AGAIN when he asks them in Verse7 they insisted �Jesus of Nazareth� why again? Because they didn�t recognize him to be Jesus (S), but the supposed Jesus the gardener insisted �I am he,� and in V. 8 he said: �I have told you that I am he� more emphasis add here, why? Because they didn�t recognize him as Jesus (S) and also where they caught him? In the �garden,� and what Mary said? �She supposes him to be the gardener.� Coincident! You see! He look like a �gardener� and was caught in the �garden�, And they didn�t �RECOGNIZE� him. It was not him! I've established in the CRUCI-FICTION that: 1- Mary didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why? 2- The Disciples didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why? 3- And also when Judas and his band went to capture him they didn't RECONOZE HIM, Why? 4- They captured him in the GARDEN, 5- And Mary took him for a GARDENER. And Allah (S) said: �That the rejected Faith; That they utter against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; And on the Day of Judgment he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.� (Q.4:156-159) Even the supposed Jesus they did not kill as you read on: Jesus said unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and said unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus said unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God. ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+20%3A17§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%252020%3A17&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=20&ncc=20 - - KJV) Remember he told the disciples: �A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.� (John 16:16) And Christians understand it to mean that, he will die and resurrect. But the suppose Jesus is telling Mary he did not go to the father (died) as yet but go and tell them he did, �I http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=305 - � all ready died. But the Devil is quick to draw the vial over your eyes in changing �I ascend� to I will go, I am returning. See this �Link, I http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=305 - � and verified with other translation. For of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157) Please don�t tell me that he was going up in the sky because he was speaking to Mary on the earth and he said, �Say unto them, I ascend unto my Father.� He was just there in front of her. Paul testified that Jesus (S) did not die: Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%205:7&version=9 - - Hebrews 5:7 ) To what extend he prayed? He said: ��My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death... And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will.� ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:35-39&version=9 - - Matt.26:28-29 ) Note: He said: �My soul� and not flesh. Also in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43-44&version=9 - - Luke22:44 �And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweet was, as it were, great drop of blood falling to the ground.� And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43) The angel assured him that God Almighty has answered his prayers: The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%205:16&version=9 - - James 5:16 ) You see that! St. Paul knew, that why he confessed: �Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%205:7&version=9 - - Hebrews 5:7 ) Even some of the Jews knew that he didn�t died, but what they did not know is that, he was the suppose Jesus the gardener. Read for yourself: 62�Now the next day� the chief priest and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. 64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: So the LAST ERROR SHALL BE WORSE THAN THE FIRST ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew.27:62-64&version=9 - - Matt.27:62-64 � They are talking about FIRST ERROR and LAST ERROR. What is the first error? They knew that they didn�t kill the suppose Jesus. Jesus, interestingly, told the Pharisees too: �go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice� [Matthew 9:13]. We all agree that Jesus Christ (S) was a righteous and a pious man and the Bible says that the wicked will take his place: �In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared" [Psalm 9:16], "The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, And the treacherous is in the place of the upright� [Proverbs 21:18], and "The righteous is delivered from trouble, But the wicked takes his place" [Proverbs 11:8]. Who say that? The God of the bible! Last point, what is a resurrected body? Let Jesus tells us: Luke 20:27-27) ��For they are equal unto the angels,� meaning, that they will be Angelised, they will be Spiritualized, they will be Spirit! As to regards the suppose Jesus: �Behold my hand and feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see: for a SPIRIT has no flesh and bone, as you see me have. (Luke 24:39-40) If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=I%20Corinthians%2015:14&version=9 - - I Corinthians15:14 ) Is the crucifixion true or doubtful? The Qur�an says, �It is doubt full with no certain knowledge� Why Mary didn�t recognize him, neither the disciples, even when Judas and his band of men didn�t recognize him when they went to capture him? Because it was not him (it was doubt full) and I would not put my soul in something that is �doubt full!� And they said (in boast), �we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah�:- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157) tnc ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 December 2010 at 8:30pm
Doug,
please get to know your Bible more.
Indeed, Islam is not a new religion. Islam simply means submission to the will of God. Since Adam, God taught humans to worship Him, and that is Islam.
Now to answer your questions about differences, let me say this first: Christians claim Jesus was a Jew but the Jews don't acknowledge that.
Christians and Jews believe and read in the same book (the Old Testament) yet they don't even agree about how to define God. With that example what I am trying to say is that so much has changed from the original that even just between Christianity and Judaism you see differences like night and day.
We do see some traces of practice in both Jewish OT and Christian NT that are similar to what we find in the Final Testament, the Quran, sent for our times.
For example we see both in OT and NT that prophets prayed like we Muslim do, like SAJDA for example, where the person lower and touch their head to the ground to exalt and worship God Almighty. Christians and Jews as far as I know do not do that anymore, yet their book is full of examples and quotes that clearly shows how people like Jesus (pbuh) or Moses or David prayed and worshiped God.
1 Chronicles21:16 "Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown."
2 chronicles 20:18 "Jehoshaphat bowed down with his face to the ground, and all the people of Judah and Jerusalem fell down in worship before the LORD."
Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, �My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.�
As far as facing toward the Kabba, I am sure by now you know that it is done only as it was a command from God. It is a symbol of global oneness to face a singal direction when bowing down in front of God. In Islam, Muslims used to face toward the Holy Temple (Al Aqsa)in Jerusalem until God commanded them to change it toward Mecca.
We do see some traces in the OT that show that prophets did pray toward the Temple. David (pbuh) has quoted to have said this in the OT:
Psalm 138: 1 I will praise you, LORD, with all my heart; before the �gods� I will sing your praise. 2 I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name Also as far as praying certian times a day, we also find some traces of information about that too in the OT. Prophet Daniel (pbuh) has been quoted:
Daniel 6:10 "Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before"
So, yes there is planty of evidence to suggest that all of Islamic teaching are not new, instead they were being pracitced before, just as the belief in One God was and al Islam, the submission to God as well.
Peace,
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 05 December 2010 at 4:23am
Hi TNC, what does Jonah being in the belly of the fish have to do with Jesus's prayer in the garden of Gethsemane? Jesus was not in that garden three days and three nights. The three days and three nights in the earth, in the verse you quoted above, refers to the time his physical body was in grave before the resurrection. The comparison with Jonah being in the fish was the period of time that Jonah was in the whale, which Jesus made quiet clear that he Jesus would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Jesus's body could not be alive in the earth three days and three nights. Jesus did ask if it were possible that the cup of death be passed from him, but he concluded that it was not possible if he were to do the God the Father's will. And it was God's will that he die for the sins of the world, so that we may have eternal life. Mark 14:36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. Doug L. |
Posted By: Douggg
Date Posted: 05 December 2010 at 4:48am
Hi Hasan, Islam includes being a follower of mohamed and his teachings and claims. If a person rejects mohamed, he cannot be a muslim. Because Islam counters both the Jewish Tanach and the Christian nt that makes Islam a new religion. Hasan, you are putting forth a single word argument "Islam" and based on that, you say that Islam is not a new religion. But it is not that simple because of everything that Muslims afix to that word Islam that contradicts and denys both the old testament and new testament in major ways.
A new requirement, for a new religion, coming from one source - Mohamed... who claims that is what God commanded. Mecca is of no importance to Jews or Christians. What is in Mecca? The Kaaba. What importance is the Kaaba to Christians and Jews of the bible? None. So back in his day, why was Mohamed so focused on the Kaaba? Doug L. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 05 December 2010 at 10:54am
|
Religions evolve. Languages evolve. The understanding of holy texts evolves as well. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 05 December 2010 at 1:45pm
|
To Marsoor
Your Comment ...The early Gnostic sects believed it was Simon of Cyrene who resembled Jesus and crucified.The Basilidans [Basilides] believed that someone else was substituted for him.The Docetae [Docetism] held that Christ never had a real physical or natural body, but only an apparent or phantom body, and that his Crucifixion was only apparent, not real.The Marcionite Gospel (about A.D. 138) [Marcion] denied that Jesus was born, and merely said that he appeared in human form. The Gospel of St. Barnabas supported the theory of substitution on the Cross... ...The Cerinthians and later the Basilidians, for example, who were among the first of the early Christian communities, denied that Jesus was crucified...The Carpocratians, another early Christian sect, believed that it was not Jesus who was crucified, but another in his place... My Reply About the above comment on Simon of Cyrene and Gnostic Christianity so again I thought I would contribute. Some early Christians did support Mohammad in his beliefs, for example the Christian monk called Bahira.However you need to understand early Christian history. Many of the Christian churches in Arabia at the time were struggling with a heresy called Gnosticism. While orthodox Christianity has the Jewish religion as its foundation Gnostic Christians had strong influences from Pagan religions from countries like Egypt, Persia, Rome, India and Greece. Mohammad and Islam was influenced and supported by these Christian Gnostic sects who were not strong in their Jewish religious knowledge and influenced by paganism from the above countries. It and it was from these groups that the story of Simon of Cyrene was supported. Most Gnostic writings were much later than the eye witness accounts of the Christian gospels, were in different languages .eg. Egyptian Coptic compared to the Greek and Aramaic which were the original languages of the Christian gospels. So because they were written later and not in the original languages they lack authority. Let me summarize the examples you mention. The Gospel of St. Barnabas was written about 1400 years later than the 4 Christian gospels. Two manuscripts are known to have existed, both dated to the late sixteenth century and written respectively in Italian and in Spanish; although the Spanish manuscript is now lost, its text surviving only in a partial eighteenth-century transcript. Few academics argue that the text, in its present form, dates back any earlier than the 14th�16th centuries and the oldest surviving copy only goes as far back as a partial eighteenth-century transcript. Compare this to the earliest fragment of a current Christian gospel which is dated at the early 1st Century. Barnabas was not written in the original Greek or Aramaic but the original was either in Spanish or Italian and most academics believe it is false or unfounded in its authenticity. The Basilidians were a late 2nd Century group established much later than the first eye witness believers of Jesus. They denied their Jewish roots and had strong pagan Greek and Egyptian religious influences and used magic and witchcraft in their practices. Marcion never wrote a gospel. Instead he was another one who denied the Jewish roots of Christianity and only was prepared to use the Luke Gospel due it being written by a non Jew. The Cerinthians and the Carpocratians also existed at a time when Christianity's relation to Judaism was being challenged by Greek paganism. All religions have their share of sects that move away from the orthodix. It is my understanding the Muslim sect known as the Sufis have strong pagan gnostic influences and there is evidence that the Druze religion started as an Islamic heresy. The concerns Muslims express about the God / man nature of Jesus, the resurrection etc are nothing new and have been discussed in Christian circles for the last 2000 years without causing a serious challenge to orthodox Christianity. The area of theology that is involved in this discussion is called �Christology�. God Bless David |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 06 December 2010 at 1:46am
|
Hello if I may contribute
You Said to Doug � please get to know your Bible more. Indeed, Islam is not a new religion. Islam simply means submission to the will of God. Since Adam, God taught humans to worship Him, and that is Islam. Now to answer your questions about differences let me say this first: Christians claim Jesus was a Jew but the Jews don't acknowledge that. Christians and Jews believe and read in the same book (the Old Testament) yet they don't even agree about how to define God. My Reply - Jesus was born a Jew. Although He was born in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1, Micah 5:2), Yeshua was raised in Nazareth (Luke 2:39-40). Both were Jewish towns at the time, according to archeologists and historians. Bethlehem is just south of Jerusalem while Nazareth is north, in the Galilee section. He was a real, historical person, born in the Land of Israel, during the Roman occupation, in approximately the year 3 BCE. However, at the time His name was actually pronounced, "Yeshua,". That Yeshua was born Jewish is one of the least contested truths of the Bible. Yeshua lived as a Jew. Both of Yeshua's parents were from Nazareth (Luke 1:26-27, 2:4, 39) and they returned there with the Child when they had done everything according to the Law of the Lord that His birth required (Luke 2:39). His aunt and uncle were also Torah observant Jews (Luke 1:6) so we can see that probably the whole family took their faith very seriously. Yeshua's parents made the 140 mile (225 m.) round trip to Jerusalem every Jewish Passover Festival (Luke 2:41) in observance of Deut. 16:16. In adult life, His disciples were Jews (John 1:47, Matt. 20:25-26) and they called Him 'Rabbi' (John 4:31). Mary called Him 'Rabboni' (John 20:16). They sought Him because they believed the Torah and the Prophets (John 1:45). A Pharisee who had not yet come to faith in Him also addressed Yeshua as 'Rabbi' (John 3:2), as did a crowd of people (John 6:25). A Samaritan woman easily recognized He was a Jew (John 4:9). Yeshua's disciples spoke Hebrew (John 1:38, 41) and so did he He taught in the Jewish Temple (Luke 21:37) and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30). Yeshua not only taught others how to live a Jewish life, He lived it Himself. The outward signs of this were such things as wearing tzitzit (tassles) on His clothing (Luke 8:43, Matt. 14:36, Strong's # 2899) to serve as a reminder of the commandments (Num. 15:37-39). He observed Passover (John 2:13) and went up to Jerusalem (Deut. 16:16). He observed Succot (John 7:2, 10) and went up to Jerusalem (John 7:14). He also observed Hanukah (John 10:22) and probably Rosh haShanah (John 5:1), going up to Jerusalem on both those occasions as well, even though it isn't commanded in the Torah. In regards to the difference between the Jewish religion and the Christian religion Jesus was the fulfillment of the Tanakh (Old Testament) The Old Testament is symbolic of him as the Messiah. Everything in the old testament represents him as the Mesiah � the law, the festivals, the whole Torah, the commandments is merely symbolic of the nature of The Messiah. Jesus said �I have not come to abolish the law of Moses but to fulfill it�. Mathew 5.17. The original followers of Jesus (Yeshua) were all Jews plus the ancient Jewish Messianic prophesies were and are about him. For example. Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23) A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16) Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14) Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1) Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7) Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15) Herod�s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18) Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17) Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3) Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35) Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21) Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13) Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11) Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9) Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7) Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving: rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48) betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18) sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15) silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14) being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31) beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26) spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30) piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31) being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38) praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34) piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34) given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36) no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36) buried in a rich man�s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60) casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24) Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31) Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9) Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3) You Said to Doug � With that example what I am trying to say is that so much has changed from the original that even just between Christianity and Judaism you see differences like night and day. My Reply - Who changed it? Where did this happen? when? Where is your proof? You Said to Doug � We do see some traces of practice in both Jewish OT and Christian NT that are similar to what we find in the Final Testament, the Quran, sent for our times.For example we see both in OT and NT that prophets prayed like we Muslim do, like SAJDA for example, where the person lower and touch their head to the ground to exalt and worship God Almighty. Christians and Jews as far as I know do not do that anymore, yet their book is full of examples and quotes that clearly shows how people like Jesus (pbuh) or Moses or David prayed and worshiped God. 1 Chronicles21:16 "Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown." 2 chronicles 20:18 "Jehoshaphat bowed down with his face to the ground, and all the people of Judah and Jerusalem fell down in worship before the LORD." Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, �My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.� My Reply - Are you saying the proper way to pray is always as to bow as Muslims do? Often when I pray I do bow. However I can pray walking or lying down, riding a bike or even working! However here are some OT and NT examples to show there are many aspects to prayer and it is more than just conforming your Muslim behavior or formula to pray. See the OT examples � Moses raised his arms when he prayed. Exodus 17.10 The Israelites prayed by calling out in battle. 1Chronicals 5:20 They spread their hands when praying. Samuel 1:15 They called out and lifted their hands Zechariah 13 and LAM 3: Worshipped with music Exodus 15.20 - 21 David danced when he worshiped God 2 Samuel 6.14 NT examples � Jesus went to a went up on a mountainside to pray. Mark 6.46 Jesus prayed with loud cries and tears Hebrews 5:7 Lifting ones hands, with the right heart attitude 1Timothy 2:8 Jesus placed his hands on the little children Mathew 9.13 However in the NT we learn God is ultimately not interested in the out side external form of prayer but is more interested in the attitude of the heart. The inward sign of the Judaism of Jesus was a circumcised heart (Deut. 10:16, 30:6). John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. Mathew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. The Kaabba, You Said to Doug � As far as facing toward the Kabba, I am sure by now you know that it is done only as it was a command from God. It is a symbol of global oneness to face a singal direction when bowing down in front of God. In Islam, Muslims used to face toward the Holy Temple (Al Aqsa)in Jerusalem until God commanded them to change it toward Mecca. My Reply - The early history of Mecca shows that it was a place of pilgrimage long before Mohammed. The battle of Islam for the conquest of Arabia was determined at Mecca and was very important because this was the capture of the Pagan center. The Black Stone was revered well before the rise of Islam. Manat, the goddess of destiny was worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. By the time of Muhammad, it was already associated with the Kaaba, a pre-Islamic shrine that was revered as a sacred sanctuary and a site of pilgrimage. The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an. A "red stone" was the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and there was a "white stone" in the Ka'ba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca). Worship at that time period was often associated with stone reverence, mountains, special rock formations, or distinctive trees. Before the time of Mohammad when Arabia was pagan Idolators did the same � walked around it a certain number of times and kissed it. Each local tribe of Arab Pagans kissed their own tribal black stones. Islam has simply integrated part of a pagan religious ceremony into its own. I believe the story of the angel Gabriel bringing the rock to earth is a story designed to compromise Islam with paganism and idolatory. Mohammad wanted to compromise pagan idolatry so as not to become unpopular with pagans when he was introducing his new religion. Moharram was the month of the great feast. Tree worship and stone worship as we shall see later belong to the old heathenism. In Nagran a date-palm served as god. A number of sacred trees or groves between Mecca and Medina which formerly were idol temples, are now visited because "Mohammed resided there, prayed there, or had his hair cut under them." (See Bokhari, 1:68-3:36.) Prof. Hurgronje thinks that the existence of the small sanctuaries around the Ka'aba are due to the existence of sacred trees, stones and wells, which formerly were pagan places of worship, but were afterwards Islamized by stating that under such a tree the Prophet sat down � this stone spoke to him � on that stone he sat down � and certain wells even were made sacred because Mohammed spat in them. (Azraqi, p. 438, quoted in Hurgronje, p. 123.) The Kaaba is Symbolic? Even if the official Muslim position is that it is only symbolic, Im sure there have been many individuals over the centuries and even in these days that have regarded it with the same awe as what the past pagan worshippers would have done. For those individuals it would have been, and is an idol. Writing in Dawn in Madinah: A Pilgrim's Progress, Muzaffar Iqbal described his experience of venerating the Black Stone during a pilgrimage to Mecca: At the end of the second [circumabulation of the Kaaba], I was granted one of those extraordinary moments which sometimes occur around the Black Stone. As I approached the Corner the large crowd was suddenly pushed back by a strong man who had just kissed the Black Stone. This push generated a backward current, creating a momentary opening around the Black Stone as I came to it; I swiftly accepted the opportunity reciting, Bismillahi Allahu akbar wa lillahi-hamd ["In the name of God, God is great, all praise to God"], put my hands on the Black Stone and kissed it. Thousands of silver lines sparkled, the Stone glistened, and something stirred deep inside me. A few seconds passed. Then I was pushed away by the guard. Iqbal, Muzaffar (2007). Dawn in Madinah: A Pilgrim's Progress. The Other Press. p. 21. Also see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone#cite_note-19 In recent years, literalist views of the Black Stone have become more popular. Some Muslims accept as literally true an allegorical hadith which asserts that "the Stone will appear on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah) with eyes to see and a tongue to speak, and give evidence in favour of all who kissed it in true devotion, but speak out against whoever indulged in gossip or profane conversations during his circumambulation of the Kaaba" Lazarus-Yafeh, Hava (1981). Some religious aspects of Islam: a collection of articles. Leiden: Brill. pp. 120�124. You Said to Doug � We do see some traces in the OT that show that prophets did pray toward the Temple. David (pbuh) has quoted to have said this in the OT: Psalm 138: 1 I will praise you, LORD, with all my heart; before the �gods� I will sing your praise. 2 I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name. My Reply - Gods spirit resided in the temple, that�s why the Jews bowed toward the temple. Do you believe Gods spirit resides in the black stone ? Also do you sing like David did when you bow to the stone? You Said to Doug � Also as far as praying certain times a day, we also find some traces of information about that too in the OT. Prophet Daniel (pbuh) has been quoted: Daniel 6:10 "Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. "So, yes there is plenty of evidence to suggest that all of Islamic teaching are not new, instead they were being practiced before, just as the belief in One God was and al Islam, the submission to God as well. My Reply - I wouldn�t say that�s plenty of evidence ! And as far as Daniel is concerned while he may have felt led by Gods spirit on that occasion to pray 3 times a day, there is nothing else in the OT to indicate this was a common practice for Jews and there is nothing in the NT to indicate it was common practice for Jesus either. As mentioned by someone else on these forums it appears Muslims simply pick and choose what OT and NT scriptures they want to either accept or reject to support their arguments. I have not seen any solid criteria for Muslims to decide what scriptures they accept apart from if it suits their arguments. God Bless David |
Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 23 December 2010 at 9:28am
|
Very nice questions! But eventually they did know it to be Jesus; would Peter draw his sword for a stranger TNC? And the �man� who miraculously put the guard ear back on that Peter took off, if not Jesus who was he with such power? So, my question to you, was Jesus a Prophet who cannot be trusted? Was the GARDENER to be trusted? I also noticed that you conveniently left out Judas and said �they� didn�t recognize him. Did Judas recognize this �imposter Jesus� or does he just like kissing strangers?
TNC, do you know Muslim say it was Judas who was crucified?
You have just dug yourself bigger holes then you were in! But, I would love to hear your answers truth-now-come. ------------- �If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 December 2010 at 5:39pm
Hi,
its funny when one thing favors your point to apply it only there? do you mean than that Christians should take OT as more credible on issues of Trinity, status of Jesus and salvation??
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 4:25pm
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Hello Honeto
Yes |
Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 05 January 2011 at 10:04am
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Truth now come, when? I�m waiting for your answers to my questions. Did I shut you down too? ------------- �If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 January 2011 at 3:12pm
|
Hi everyone, and Salam to my brothers and sisters in Islam. sorry I have been away from the forum and I see I have some resposes overdue. Inshahallah I will answer each one as time permits. As I look back at this thread I see as always some have drifted off topic. "Is Jesus (pbuh) a prophet"? You bet, he is, the Bible proves it, and the Quran confirms it. The other issues can be discussed but you must start a new thread for that. For example if you have issue with whether Kaaba was eracted by God's prophets before the last Prophet or not, or how to pray properly? and so on. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: jul987
Date Posted: 18 January 2011 at 3:40am
| A very interesting thread. I am not sure if I should follow my heart or intellect on this one. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 January 2011 at 6:10pm
David,
your answer yes means that the OT to be given more value (according to you) and in doing so, you will see that there is no concept of a Trinity there. Does that make things clearer for you?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 January 2011 at 7:43pm
|
David,
you wrote answering my comments, my current response is in red color.
Hello if I may contribute
You Said to Doug � please get to know your Bible more. Indeed, Islam is not a new religion. Islam simply means submission to the will of God. Since Adam, God taught humans to worship Him, and that is Islam. Now to answer your questions about differences let me say this first: Christians claim Jesus was a Jew but the Jews don't acknowledge that. Christians and Jews believe and read in the same book (the Old Testament) yet they don't even agree about how to define God. My Reply - Jesus was born a Jew. Although He was born in Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1, Micah 5:2), Yeshua was raised in Nazareth (Luke 2:39-40). Both were Jewish towns at the time, according to archeologists and historians. Bethlehem is just south of Jerusalem while Nazareth is north, in the Galilee section. He was a real, historical person, born in the Land of Israel, during the Roman occupation, in approximately the year 3 BCE. However, at the time His name was actually pronounced, "Yeshua,". That Yeshua was born Jewish is one of the least contested truths of the Bible. Yeshua lived as a Jew. Both of Yeshua's parents were from Nazareth (Luke 1:26-27, 2:4, 39) and they returned there with the Child when they had done everything according to the Law of the Lord that His birth required (Luke 2:39). His aunt and uncle were also Torah observant Jews (Luke 1:6) so we can see that probably the whole family took their faith very seriously. Yeshua's parents made the 140 mile (225 m.) round trip to Jerusalem every Jewish Passover Festival (Luke 2:41) in observance of Deut. 16:16. In adult life, His disciples were Jews (John 1:47, Matt. 20:25-26) and they called Him 'Rabbi' (John 4:31). Mary called Him 'Rabboni' (John 20:16). They sought Him because they believed the Torah and the Prophets (John 1:45). A Pharisee who had not yet come to faith in Him also addressed Yeshua as 'Rabbi' (John 3:2), as did a crowd of people (John 6:25). A Samaritan woman easily recognized He was a Jew (John 4:9). Yeshua's disciples spoke Hebrew (John 1:38, 41) and so did he He taught in the Jewish Temple (Luke 21:37) and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30). Yeshua not only taught others how to live a Jewish life, He lived it Himself. The outward signs of this were such things as wearing tzitzit (tassles) on His clothing (Luke 8:43, Matt. 14:36, Strong's # 2899) to serve as a reminder of the commandments (Num. 15:37-39). He observed Passover (John 2:13) and went up to Jerusalem (Deut. 16:16). He observed Succot (John 7:2, 10) and went up to Jerusalem (John 7:14). He also observed Hanukah (John 10:22) and probably Rosh haShanah (John 5:1), going up to Jerusalem on both those occasions as well, even though it isn't commanded in the Torah. In regards to the difference between the Jewish religion and the Christian religion Jesus was the fulfillment of the Tanakh (Old Testament) The Old Testament is symbolic of him as the Messiah. Everything in the old testament represents him as the Mesiah � the law, the festivals, the whole Torah, the commandments is merely symbolic of the nature of The Messiah. Jesus said �I have not come to abolish the law of Moses but to fulfill it�. Mathew 5.17. The original followers of Jesus (Yeshua) were all Jews plus the ancient Jewish Messianic prophesies were and are about him. For example. Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23) A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16) Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14) Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1) Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7) Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15) Herod�s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18) Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17) Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3) Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35) Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21) Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13) Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11) Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9) Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7) Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving: rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48) betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18) sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15) silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14) being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31) beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26) spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30) piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31) being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38) praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34) piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34) given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36) no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36) buried in a rich man�s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60) casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24) Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31) Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9) Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3) Honeto: Basically you agreed with my statement about Jesus being a Jew as you quoted the Bible in proving that. And that's my point, you claim to follow a Jew in with Jewish belief, but you refuse to understand that there is no concept of a Trinity in entire Jewish belief. Get it? My Reply -
Who changed it? Where did this happen? when? Where is your proof? Honeto: There are many, but since you are not aware of a single on, it should be enough to give just a couple of them here. The concept of God for example is one of them. OT does not say anything about God being a Trinity, not so the NT. The NT claims Jesus to be the only begotten son of God, the OT shows many other sons of God, even begotten ones before Jesus.
The list goes on.
You Said to Doug � We do see some traces of practice in both Jewish OT and Christian NT that are similar to what we find in the Final Testament, the Quran, sent for our times.For example we see both in OT and NT that prophets prayed like we Muslim do, like SAJDA for example, where the person lower and touch their head to the ground to exalt and worship God Almighty. Christians and Jews as far as I know do not do that anymore, yet their book is full of examples and quotes that clearly shows how people like Jesus (pbuh) or Moses or David prayed and worshiped God. 1 Chronicles21:16 "Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown." 2 chronicles 20:18 "Jehoshaphat bowed down with his face to the ground, and all the people of Judah and Jerusalem fell down in worship before the LORD." Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, �My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.� My Reply - Are you saying the proper way to pray is always as to bow as Muslims do? Often when I pray I do bow. However I can pray walking or lying down, riding a bike or even working! However here are some OT and NT examples to show there are many aspects to prayer and it is more than just conforming your Muslim behavior or formula to pray. See the OT examples � Moses raised his arms when he prayed. Exodus 17.10 The Israelites prayed by calling out in battle. 1Chronicals 5:20 They spread their hands when praying. Samuel 1:15 They called out and lifted their hands Zechariah 13 and LAM 3: Worshipped with music Exodus 15.20 - 21 David danced when he worshiped God 2 Samuel 6.14 NT examples � Jesus went to a went up on a mountainside to pray. Mark 6.46 Jesus prayed with loud cries and tears Hebrews 5:7 Lifting ones hands, with the right heart attitude 1Timothy 2:8 Jesus placed his hands on the little children Mathew 9.13 However in the NT we learn God is ultimately not interested in the out side external form of prayer but is more interested in the attitude of the heart. The inward sign of the Judaism of Jesus was a circumcised heart (Deut. 10:16, 30:6). John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. James 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. Mathew 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. Honeto:What I am saying is that in OT and NT you see some traces of how a "Salath" was done as God taught it to all of His previous prophets, yet those who claim to follow them have transformed, forgotten, changed or left the original way. Through His last prophet, God taught us again how to properly present ourselves in front of Him in Salath which is a composite of all of what you and I wrote. That includes, washing and cleaning one'self, choosing a clean place, removing shoes, facing a particular direction as ordered by God, then bowing down your head to the ground in front of your Creator, God Almighty in worship and praise, and suplication followed by prayers for self, others and all. Yes you find that in bits and peices here and there, as a proof that how similar it was, once, but no more for those who follow it.
The Kaabba, You Said to Doug � As far as facing toward the Kabba, I am sure by now you know that it is done only as it was a command from God. It is a symbol of global oneness to face a singal direction when bowing down in front of God. In Islam, Muslims used to face toward the Holy Temple (Al Aqsa)in Jerusalem until God commanded them to change it toward Mecca. My Reply - The early history of Mecca shows that it was a place of pilgrimage long before Mohammed. The battle of Islam for the conquest of Arabia was determined at Mecca and was very important because this was the capture of the Pagan center. The Black Stone was revered well before the rise of Islam. Manat, the goddess of destiny was worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. By the time of Muhammad, it was already associated with the Kaaba, a pre-Islamic shrine that was revered as a sacred sanctuary and a site of pilgrimage. The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an. A "red stone" was the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and there was a "white stone" in the Ka'ba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca). Worship at that time period was often associated with stone reverence, mountains, special rock formations, or distinctive trees. Before the time of Mohammad when Arabia was pagan Idolators did the same � walked around it a certain number of times and kissed it. Each local tribe of Arab Pagans kissed their own tribal black stones. Islam has simply integrated part of a pagan religious ceremony into its own. I believe the story of the angel Gabriel bringing the rock to earth is a story designed to compromise Islam with paganism and idolatory. Mohammad wanted to compromise pagan idolatry so as not to become unpopular with pagans when he was introducing his new religion. Moharram was the month of the great feast. Tree worship and stone worship as we shall see later belong to the old heathenism. In Nagran a date-palm served as god. A number of sacred trees or groves between Mecca and Medina which formerly were idol temples, are now visited because "Mohammed resided there, prayed there, or had his hair cut under them." (See Bokhari, 1:68-3:36.) Prof. Hurgronje thinks that the existence of the small sanctuaries around the Ka'aba are due to the existence of sacred trees, stones and wells, which formerly were pagan places of worship, but were afterwards Islamized by stating that under such a tree the Prophet sat down � this stone spoke to him � on that stone he sat down � and certain wells even were made sacred because Mohammed spat in them. (Azraqi, p. 438, quoted in Hurgronje, p. 123.) Honeto:In Islam we believe that Kaaba was first erected by Adam, reconstructed by Abraham. We agree that Adam was the first man, and according to the Islamic understanding first Muslim. So there you have it, people, as history shows have a tendency to leave God for idols and leave idols for God. That just explains that yes before the last Prophet (pbuh) Kaaba was a center of idol worship. But like I said, before that Abraham cleared it of idols long time before it was filled with idols again. And with God's mercy and guidance, it is again cleared of idols, restored as a house of God, for the worship of God only.
The Kaaba is Symbolic? Even if the official Muslim position is that it is only symbolic, Im sure there have been many individuals over the centuries and even in these days that have regarded it with the same awe as what the past pagan worshippers would have done. For those individuals it would have been, and is an idol. Writing in Dawn in Madinah: A Pilgrim's Progress, Muzaffar Iqbal described his experience of venerating the Black Stone during a pilgrimage to Mecca: At the end of the second [circumabulation of the Kaaba], I was granted one of those extraordinary moments which sometimes occur around the Black Stone. As I approached the Corner the large crowd was suddenly pushed back by a strong man who had just kissed the Black Stone. This push generated a backward current, creating a momentary opening around the Black Stone as I came to it; I swiftly accepted the opportunity reciting, Bismillahi Allahu akbar wa lillahi-hamd ["In the name of God, God is great, all praise to God"], put my hands on the Black Stone and kissed it. Thousands of silver lines sparkled, the Stone glistened, and something stirred deep inside me. A few seconds passed. Then I was pushed away by the guard. Iqbal, Muzaffar (2007). Dawn in Madinah: A Pilgrim's Progress. The Other Press. p. 21. Also see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone#cite_note-19 In recent years, literalist views of the Black Stone have become more popular. Some Muslims accept as literally true an allegorical hadith which asserts that "the Stone will appear on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah) with eyes to see and a tongue to speak, and give evidence in favour of all who kissed it in true devotion, but speak out against whoever indulged in gossip or profane conversations during his circumambulation of the Kaaba" Lazarus-Yafeh, Hava (1981). Some religious aspects of Islam: a collection of articles. Leiden: Brill. pp. 120�124. Honeto:Personal experiences do have different affects and emotions on people of different places and beliefs. And by saying symbolic I did not mean to discount feelings and experiences believers go through rather the act of faith in this case, to bow in the direction of Kaaba, house of God and not in front of an image or idol that resembles a living being.
You Said to Doug � We do see some traces in the OT that show that prophets did pray toward the Temple. David (pbuh) has quoted to have said this in the OT: Psalm 138: 1 I will praise you, LORD, with all my heart; before the �gods� I will sing your praise. 2 I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name. My Reply - Gods spirit resided in the temple, that�s why the Jews bowed toward the temple. Do you believe Gods spirit resides in the black stone ? Also do you sing like David did when you bow to the stone? Honeto: "God's Spirit" resided in the temple?? Hmmm I thought according to the Bible "God is spirit" I do not know that God physically lives in a temple, do you? It is house of worship of God rather.
We sing God's praise when we recite the verses of the Quran, as our prophet taught us how, not loud, God hears even if you sing/recite His praise in low voice or in your heart. Plus OT is a compilation of several books that God sent to various prophets in various times, we do not know if this compilation is complete or even accurate. Discripencies show that it is not accurate. One the other hand, the Quran is one book, revealed to one prophet, still is in its original language and contents. Bottom line, definetly more reliable than any other.
You Said to Doug � Also as far as praying certain times a day, we also find some traces of information about that too in the OT. Prophet Daniel (pbuh) has been quoted: Daniel 6:10 "Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. "So, yes there is plenty of evidence to suggest that all of Islamic teaching are not new, instead they were being practiced before, just as the belief in One God was and al Islam, the submission to God as well. My Reply - I wouldn�t say that�s plenty of evidence ! And as far as Daniel is concerned while he may have felt led by Gods spirit on that occasion to pray 3 times a day, there is nothing else in the OT to indicate this was a common practice for Jews and there is nothing in the NT to indicate it was common practice for Jesus either. As mentioned by someone else on these forums it appears Muslims simply pick and choose what OT and NT scriptures they want to either accept or reject to support their arguments. I have not seen any solid criteria for Muslims to decide what scriptures they accept apart from if it suits their arguments. We don't, we only show it to those who do not take Quran's word for serious. For us it (the books of the Bible) was sent by God, people changed, altered, erased, added to it over its course of time to its present state where original is lost altogether.
Imagine showing you that your claim is wrong from your own book, what can we do after that is not up to us, but you.
Peace,
Honeto (hasan) ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 28 January 2011 at 9:27pm
|
Hello Hasan
Thank you for your post dated 19 January. YOUR REPLY Basically you agreed with my statement about Jesus being a Jew as you quoted the Bible in proving that. And that's my point, you claim to follow a Jew in with Jewish belief, but you refuse to understand that there is no concept of a Trinity in entire Jewish belief. Get it? MY RESPONSE The word trinity will not be found any where in the Bible, but there are verses in the Tenakh (OT) that point towards it. YOUR REPLY There are many, but since you are not aware of a single on, it should be enough to give just a couple of them here. The concept of God for example is one of them. OT does not say anything about God being a Trinity, not so the NT. The NT claims Jesus to be the only begotten son of God, the OT shows many other sons of God, even begotten ones before Jesus. The list goes on. MY RESPONSE As mentioned above. The NT does not have the word trinity and the NT only points to it. There are verses in the Tenakh (OT) that also point to it. Actually I have had a long discussion with Islamispeace about this and he has only managed to quote two that he would not even have known about if it was not for Christian scholarly transparency and integrity that has made it known to the world with no secrets kept. Plus the verses he quoted are disputable. The Tenakh (OT) states there will only be one Messiah which lines up with the exclusiveness in the choice of the word �begotten� in the NT (Monogenēs - μονογενὴς meaning the one and only legitimate �Son�). Yes you are right �sons of God� is to be found in the OT .eg. Hosea 1.10, however this word is slightly different in that it refers to the people of a nation or a member of a group, rather than an exclusive or begotten one Son. The NT often refers to believers in the Messiah becoming sons of God and you too can become son of Gods blessing and inheritance if you become a follower of the Messiah. Can you quote the list please? YOUR REPLY What I am saying is that in OT and NT you see some traces of how a "Salath" was done as God taught it to all of His previous prophets, yet those who claim to follow them have transformed, forgotten, changed or left the original way. Through His last prophet, God taught us again how to properly present ourselves in front of Him in Salath which is a composite of all of what you and I wrote. That includes, washing and cleaning one'self, choosing a clean place, removing shoes, facing a particular direction as ordered by God, then bowing down your head to the ground in front of your Creator, God Almighty in worship and praise, and suplication followed by prayers for self, others and all. Yes you find that in bits and peices here and there, as a proof that how similar it was, once, but no more for those who follow it. MY RESPONSE You have no proof of how the �original way� was transformed, forgotten, changed or left the original way. Traces don�t convince me. I could find traces of most religions in the Tenakh and NT if I looked hard enough. YOUR REPLY In Islam we believe that Kaaba was first erected by Adam, reconstructed by Abraham. We agree that Adam was the first man, and according to the Islamic understanding first Muslim. So there you have it, people, as history shows have a tendency to leave God for idols and leave idols for God. That just explains that yes before the last Prophet (pbuh) Kaaba was a center of idol worship. But like I said, before that Abraham cleared it of idols long time before it was filled with idols again. And with God's mercy and guidance, it is again cleared of idols, restored as a house of God, for the worship of God only. MY RESPONSE There is nothing in Gods older scriptures of the tenakh or NT to support this. Even if you think the original truth was lost or corrupted or changed there are no traces or anything. Your argument is based on a book that I do not believe in so your argument means very little to me. As mentioned above I believe the story of the angel Gabriel bringing the rock to earth is a story designed to compromise Islam with paganism and idolatry. Mohammad wanted to compromise with pagan idolatry so as not to become unpopular with pagans when he was introducing his new religion. YOUR REPLY Personal experiences do have different affects and emotions on people of different places and beliefs. And by saying symbolic I did not mean to discount feelings and experiences believers go through rather the act of faith in this case, to bow in the direction of Kaaba, house of God and not in front of an image or idol that resembles a living being. MY RESPONSE An idol can be any thing that is not God. To bow to a house or a rock is idol worship. There is no way I would bow or kiss or even point at a rock that pagans used to worship. The pagan influence is still strong. YOUR REPLY "God's Spirit" resided in the temple?? Hmmm I thought according to the Bible "God is spirit" I do not know that God physically lives in a temple, do you? It is house of worship of God rather. We sing God's praise when we recite the verses of the Quran, as our prophet taught us how, not loud, God hears even if you sing/recite His praise in low voice or in your heart. Plus OT is a compilation of several books that God sent to various prophets in various times, we do not know if this compilation is complete or even accurate. Discripencies show that it is not accurate. One the other hand, the Quran is one book, revealed to one prophet, still is in its original language and contents. Bottom line, definetly more reliable than any other. MY RESPONSE Yes you are right. I did not explain it very well God does not �reside� in the temple it was simply where he made himself available to the Jewish priests for their religious administrations. In Act 17:24 it says "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands The reliability of the Tenakh and NT is strong. In fact it is the most reliable and validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified. It can also be argued there are strong difficulties in the reliability of the Quaran. Under the Mesiah all believers in him are now his temple, a living temple. 1Corinthians 3:16 �Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?� YOUR REPLY We don't, we only show it to those who do not take Quran's word for serious. For us it (the books of the Bible) was sent by God, people changed, altered, erased, added to it over its course of time to its present state where original is lost altogether. Imagine showing you that your claim is wrong from your own book, what can we do after that is not up to us, but you. MY RESPONSE No one has shown me where the Teankh or NT is wrong. I have had no proof yet as to which people changed, altered, erased, or added to it or when or why or where. If you find it then please show it to me. Peace, David |
Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 15 February 2011 at 9:21am
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Very nice questions! But eventually they did know it to be Jesus; would Peter draw his sword for a stranger TNC? And the �man� who miraculously put the guard ear back on that Peter took off, if not Jesus who was he with such power? So, my question to you, was Jesus a Prophet who cannot be trusted? Was the GARDENER to be trusted? I also noticed that you conveniently left out Judas and said �they� didn�t recognize him. Did Judas recognize this �imposter Jesus� or does he just like kissing strangers?
TNC, do you know Muslim say it was Judas who was crucified and other Muslims say it was someone else? Who did Muhammad say he was? You never did answer any of these questions.
These are just a few very, very nice quotes for Muslims and Christians to see that Islam, the LAST religion of Abraham as Muslims say does not agree in any shape or form with the religion of Moses, Abraham and Judaism (OT) and Jesus, Paul and Christianity (NT)
The ancient Jews and Christians both accepted the Holy Scriptures, the Old AND the New Testament in its entirety. Followers today because of Christ shed blood still recognizes the importance of the Old with its New Testament, accepting it in its entirety calling themselves Christians be they Jew by birth or not. However, the LAST religion �Islam� disagrees with BOTH Moses, Jeremiah, Abraham Jesus, Paul and all the other Prophets and their teachings. The Quran does not and will not ever agree with the Holy Scriptures teachings because of where it received its source of information from, not from the God of Abraham {YHWH or Jehovah) but from a lesser angel then Jesus to put it politely, yet Muhammad�s Quran likes to quote from the Bible out of conveyance to gain followers after himself much like Constantine in Rome with the Christians but both totally contradicts the entire message of the Law, Prophets Psalms and Gospel, so be it.
1 John 4:1-3: �Test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God.�
The Quran as I agreed before is a book only for Muslims, where as the Bible is a book for all mankind from every walk of life. Right from the start Muhammad doesn�t even prey to the same God that Moses preyed to because of what that angel told him, no wonder Muslims do not accept the first five books of the Bible, the Torah as the pure word of God. From its inception Islam was infected with falsehood, then you think that the Quran would agree with the Holy Scriptures, how ridicules. Islam needs the Bible to function as a religion not the other way around. The Quran plagiarized many of the Bible accounts incorrectly and then say the Bible is wrong, that�s not even funny on so many levels because there is a penalty for that.
So, its okay for Islam to disagree with the Bible, there are older religious books way before the Quran that disagrees with the Bible but at least there is no deceit as to who they prey, worship and follow. I like the way Prophet Moses puts it;
Deut. 18:18-20: �A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.� (Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)
Jeremiah 14:14 And Jehovah went on to say to me: �Falsehood is what the prophets are prophesying in my name. I have not sent them, nor have I commanded them or spoken to them. A false vision and divination and a valueless thing and the trickiness of their heart they are speaking prophetically to YOU people.
Jesus said: �I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things.� (John 8:28) He said: �I have come in the name of my Father.� (John 5:43) Jesus also said: �He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory.��John 7:18. If any individuals claim to represent God but decline to use God�s personal name, and make it a practice to express their own opinions on matters, are they measuring up to this important qualification of a true prophet? Jews, Christians and Muslims agree that Moses, Abraham, Jesus etc. measured up to a true Prophet; it�s in your Quran all though Christians know that Jesus was more than just a Prophet. Can the Bible, Christians and Jews say the same about Muhammad, emphatically no! Why, because it�s not in the Bible and the Quran was �inspired� from a different source other than the God of Moses, Abraham and Jesus. It was inspired from an angel who had no authority to speak any inspired expressions of God, no wonder they were alone in a cave for 23 years with no one to eye-witness such event to confirm its truthfulness. That is why the Apostle Paul said; even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8, 9 The quotes by Muslim members and the posts on this site attest to the fact that what Islam teaches by way of the Quran is something beyond what was declared in the Holy Scriptures; Jesus being the �son of God� the crucifixion and the resurrection which Islam denies but the LAW of the Prophets, the Psalms and the Gospel all believe and accepts in its entirety. ------------- �If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 March 2011 at 11:43am
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David,
may be you are unaware of some of the Bible:
Here is some referance to the house of God.
Psalm 138:2 Genesis 28:16-18 17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven." 18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 05 March 2011 at 4:44pm
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Good post brother Hasan. It seems to me that David is unaware of a lot of things. It does not surprise me that many of his claims just have no basis on facts. He is free to believe whatever he wants, but it is sad that to see such blind belief, not to mention the frequent hypocrisy he engages in.
------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 07 March 2011 at 11:26am
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Please allow me to redirect this thread BACK to the original point which is very simple:
JESUS THE MESSIAH, THE SON OF MARY WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED.
This is an undeniable historical fact. It is not only ubiquitous throughout the Bible, including the many times Jesus himself propesied his own death and crucifixion, but confirmed in numerous contemporary Jewish and Roman extrabiblical sources (Tacitus, Josephus, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar Serapion, the Talmud).
The great Apostle Paul summarized the entire corpus of his teaching as follows:
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus the Messiah, and Him crucified. 1 Cor 2:2
So how in the world can the Quran both take Jesus as a prophet AND deny his death and crucifixion? How did Muhammad get it SO VERY WRONG? ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 08 March 2011 at 1:40pm
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Thanks Islamisjihad
Im not actually discussing this with you and won't be in future due to your emotional immaturity. Im not interested in your evasive, hypocritical responses and your immature adversarial attempts to 'win' arguments through the means of a grinding attrition by confusing an argument with secondary technicalities and diversions. Apart from that Im wondering what the point of these forums is as they appear to produce more heat than light and Ive got better things to do with my time. I will respond to Hasan when it suits. Good luck with the jihad. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 1:41pm
 Welcome back David! It seems you are very keen on disappearing for weeks, only to return briefly to make a useless remark when you realize someone is (rightfully) criticizing you! How "mature" of you! Thank you for wishing me luck in my jihad! You are right. Islam is jihad! It is the jihad against ignorance, false beliefs and hypocrisy, all of which you express quite clearly. I will continue to wage my intellectual jihad against the likes of you as long as Allah allows me to! You can still salvage your shattered reputation by calling out Douggg for his vitriolic rants against Islam. I have asked you so many times to do that, but you just can't bring yourself around, can you? What was the reason? Oh yeah, freedom of speech! So, what will it be David? Are you still "David the Hypocrite/Time Waster" or are you "David the Redeemed"? The choice is yours! ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 1:50pm
None of the sources you mentioned can be counted as first-hand accounts nor can they be considered indisputable evidence. Tacitus wrote his brief account almost 100 years after Jesus' alleged crucifixion. The passage attributed to Josephus is spurious and is not considered authentic. Lucian wrote his satirical work in the 2nd century and it was more of a comedy than a historical work. Mara Bar Serapion never mentions Jesus by name and his letter contains many historical errors. The Talmud and other Jewish sources contradict the Gospels in other ways. For instance, it refers to only 5 disciples of Jesus (instead of 12), which it states were also executed. Therefore, these sources are not good evidence for the claim that Jesus was crucified. Furthermore, none of them agreed that Jesus realy resurrected from the dead (aside from the Testimoniun Flavianum which as stated before is not authentic). Why is the resurrection not "an undeniable historical fact"? Finally, the Islamic point of view is that there certainly was an attempt on Jesus' life and that it was made to appear to the unbelievers that he was crucified and killed. However, the Quran states that God saved Jesus and raised him up to Himself. It is not denying that a crucifixion took place. It is simply saying that crucified one was not Jesus but someone else who was made to appear like him. In short, the Quran says that a miracle occurred. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 2:33pm
What a preposterous statement! Is the Quran a first hand account? Of course not.
You want a first hand account? Here you go:
http://bible.cc/luke/1-1.htm - 1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile AN ACCOUNT of the things accomplished among us, http://bible.cc/luke/1-2.htm - 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning WERE EYEWITNESSES and servants of the word, http://bible.cc/luke/1-3.htm - 3 it seemed fitting for me as well, HAVING INVESTIGATED EVERYTHING CAREFULLY from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; http://bible.cc/luke/1-4.htm - 4 so that you may know the EXACT TRUTH about the things you have been taught. Luke 1:1-4
and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him (Jesus the Nazarene) to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. Luke 24:20 You want extra-Biblical references? They are:
Tacitus, Josephus, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar Serapion, the Talmud as I stated. All perfectly reliabile contemporary sources from a Roman and Jewish cultural and linguistic milieu.
The Quran is uttterly irrelevant. Centuries after the fact in an entirely foreign cultural and linguistic milieu. WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE EVER EXCEPT THE QURAN'S LUDICROUS ABBERANT VIEW OF THE DEATH AND CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS THE NAZERENE? ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 3:46pm
Besides Bible does not exist in its original form, so it is hard to say what is missing from what we have as its version. But one thing is clear if we want to be honest with ourselves and that is that you can never discount facts that you find through God given capabilities and simple methods of using logic and observations to seperate truth from what is not. And my conclusion is that on many issue taken from the Bible, one find many inconsistencies within itself. A sign that it cannot be trusted as a source of guidance or a reliable source of a historical matter.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 9:53pm
No, but you were the making a historical appeal to try to support the Gospel account. And in a historical appeal, one needs to reference actual historical documents which meet historical criteria. Therefore, for any extra-biblical account to be considered authentic, it would have be a first-hand account, written around the time the event in question occurred. You have not proven that.
Now you are just resorting to circular reasoning. Appealing to the Gospels to prove what the Gospels say is not evidence. Furthermore, just because Luke claims there were eyewitnesses and that he "investigated everything carefully", does not actually make it so.
And you did not respond to the points I made. Endless repetition does not serve you well, I am afraid.
BECAUSE THE QURAN IS NOT A HODGEPODGE OF CONTRADICTORY BOOKS WRITTEN BY ANONYMOUS INDIVIDUALS WHICH WERE CHANGED BY ANONYMOUS SCRIBES OVER CENTURIES AND WHICH WERE NOT "CANONIZED" UNTIL 300 YEARS AFTER JESUS. Woo, boy was that a mouthful! Is that loud and clear? And if I may ask a question: WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE EVER ACCEPT THE BIBLE'S LUDICROUSLY CONTRADICTORY/FALSE INFORMATION ON NOT ONLY JESUS BUT OTHER ISSUES (SUCH AS THE UNKNOWN EVENT KNOWN AS THE MASSACRE OF THE INNOCENTS)? ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 4:05am
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Hello Hasan
Thank you for you reply on 3 March. "But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?" 2Ch 2:6. As seen above while the Jews bowed to Jerusalem (not to a temple housing a black stone idol in Mecca!) they recognized God does not live in a temple. All the temple (in Jerusalem not Mecca ! ) was good for was sacrifices and Jesus as the promised Messiah has now fulfilled the sacrificial law by being the last sacrifice, the Passover Lamb. Hindus also bow as part of their religious rites, often in the direction of their temple and god. Does that mean their religion is closer to the Jewish religion than Islam or Christianity? The answer is no. Jesus is the fulfillment and accomplishment of everything in the tenakh (Old testament). The tenakh (Old Testament) is clear that the line of true religion and revelation will come through Isaac and not Ishmael. Jesus was a Jew of that line. Mohammad was not. True religion is not following religious rules and formulas like having to fast in a particular month, sacrifice animals, pray a certain number of times or a certain way, ritual cleaning or making a pilgrimage to an idolatrous rock. True religion is worship of the heart. As the tenakh (OT) states - "The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." Deu 10:16 Jesus (pbuh) fulfilled and confirmed this when he said "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." Jhn 4:23-24 We (believers) are called to be the house of god built with living stones. We are called to have circumcised hearts. The religion you would have the world follow is a religious slavery with no rest and is summarized by Isaiah when he said - "For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule ; a little here, a little there. Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"� but they would not listen. So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there� so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured." Isa 28:10 -13. |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 5:23am
Nothing could be further from the truth:
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18
You can only be saved through the "word of the cross" "Jesus Christ and Him crucififed" 1 Cor 2:2. If it seems foolish to you, then you are perishing.
@Islamispeace, admit it, you and all Muslims are caught in an impossible situatation. If you want first hand accounts of the death and crucifixion of Jesus Christ, they are ad infinitum throughout the New Testamant. If you want extrabiblical accounts they have been adduced. You simply cannot deny the historical fact that Jesus Christ was crucified and died.
What do you want, for Jesus Christ to come and grab you by the scruff of the neck, shake you and tell you personally "I WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED"? ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 8:33pm
Clearly, you are running around in circles and are avoiding answering the points I have raised. To repeat, referring to the Gospels as proof of what the Gospels say is a circular argument and is not proof. Second, the Gospels are contradictory and have been proven to be inaccurate at times. Third, the extra-biblical sources which mention the crucifixion are not historical accounts and therefore do not serve to confirm the Gospels. They also tend to contradict the Gospels at times (for instance, the Talmud example of Jesus' disciples). You choose to get bogged down on the crucifixion issue. What you can't get through your head is that the Quran states that a miracle occurred. I don't see why that is a problem for a Christian who believes that miracles do occur and who blindly accepts the "miracle" of Jesus' resurrection! ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 9:24pm
we don't believe in salvation through blood and killing. God Almighty is Loving and Just.
I think that says enough.
Truth is simple and it does not need repeating.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 9:41pm
I think you need to start paying attention to what you write brother. In answer to your first quote all I will say is that the OT is full of quotes that will show that prophets did build temples.
I think it was you who I have given answer before about the direction in prayer. Muslims use to pray in the direction of Jerusalem before, and it shows that it was for no other reason but a command from God that the direction was changed toward the Holy Kaaba. And for your information it is a universal symbol of oness for all the beleivers to face one direction when bowing down to One and Only God. And I can tell you that it is very powerful for me to feel when I and all believers bow down to our Creator as one. Whether a person is rich, poor, white, black, English, Indian, Arab, Mexican, short, tall, fat, skinny, old, young, man, woman all bowing down in a single direction regardless wherever we are to the One and Only One we all should bow down to and worship and exalt and praise Him. It is indeed very powerful, only a true believer can feel it.
You mentioned Hindus, let me inform you that all religions are a deviation from the one and only true religion that God revealed to Adam the first man and onto the mankind later on through many other prophets to teach submission only to God, to our Creator. That is the reason that all religions show some signs of similarities in some of their practices.
It is really interesting that Jews and Christians claim to hold same book sacred, but deny each others beleives. Jews say Jesus was not the Messiah, and the Christians say God is not one of one but is three in One something that Jews do not beleive and that their Lord (Jesus) was a Jew! What a mess?
May God of Moses, David, Jesus, and Mohammed (pbut) guide you and us all to the truth.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 11 March 2011 at 3:57am
Then you have no salvation:
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement. Leviticus 17:11
without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness Heb 9:22b
------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 12 March 2011 at 7:05pm
Other verses in the OT make it clear that repentance is just as good. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 12 March 2011 at 8:57pm
By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all Heb 10:10
Jesus Christ is the "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" John 1:29
and we have now been "Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" Rev 7:14
in final fulfillment of the OT sacrifices.
No Bloody Sacrifice = No Salvation
------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 3:59am
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Hello Hasan
Thank you for your reply dated 10 March YOUR REPLY David, I think you need to start paying attention to what you write brother. In answer to your first quote all I will say is that the OT is full of quotes that will show that prophets did build temples. MY RESPONSE Yes I am aware in the tenakh (Old Testament) that the Jewish King Solomon built the temple in Jerusalem (not Mecca!). By quoting the OT in 2Chronicals 2:6 I am making clear that God does not live in a temple and while the Jews bowed to Jerusalem (not to a temple housing a black stone idol in Mecca!) they recognized God does not live in a temple. All the temple (in Jerusalem not Mecca ! ) was good for was sacrifices and Jesus as the promised Messiah has now fulfilled the sacrificial law by being the last sacrifice, the Jewish Passover Lamb. If the temple was really that important to God he would have re built it after the Romans destroyed it in AD 70. The reason it has not been rebuilt is the only reason it existed in the first place was for sacrifice of which Jesus as the promised Messiah prophesied throughout the tenakh (OT) has now fulfilled the sacrificial law by being the last sacrifice. He was and is the Jewish Passover Lamb. YOUR REPLY I think it was you who I have given answer before about the direction in prayer. Muslims use to pray in the direction of Jerusalem before, and it shows that it was for no other reason but a command from God that the direction was changed toward the Holy Kaaba. MY RESPONSE So God commanded Mohammad to change the direction to bow from Jerusalem to the Kaaba housing the same rock idol worshipped by pagans in Mecca? What gave Mohammad the authority to do that considering he was not even of Jewish prophetic bloodline and why toward a rock idol? Who says it was a command from God to change the direction to bow ? Mohammad? I do not believe in the authority of Mohammad so that argument means nothing to me. As mentioned many times now and no Muslim writer here has adequately answered me - before Muslims bowed to the rock idol in the Kaaba in Mecca, ancient Arabian pagans used to bow to and kiss the same rock you now bow to. This is idolatry. YOUR REPLY And for your information it is a universal symbol of oness for all the beleivers to face one direction when bowing down to One and Only God. And I can tell you that it is very powerful for me to feel when I and all believers bow down to our Creator as one. Whether a person is rich, poor, white, black, English, Indian, Arab, Mexican, short, tall, fat, skinny, old, young, man, woman all bowing down in a single direction regardless wherever we are to the One and Only One we all should bow down to and worship and exalt and praise Him. It is indeed very powerful, only a true believer can feel it. And for your information it is a universal symbol of oness for all the beleivers to face one direction when bowing down to One and Only God. And I can tell you that it is very powerful for me to feel when I and all believers bow down to our Creator as one. Whether a person is rich, poor, white, black, English, Indian, Arab, Mexican, short, tall, fat, skinny, old, young, man, woman all bowing down in a single direction regardless wherever we are to the One and Only One we all should bow down to and worship and exalt and praise Him. It is indeed very powerful, only a true believer can feel it. MY RESPONSE You said you are bowing �to the One and Only One we all should bow down to and worship and exalt and praise Him�. Then why all bow in the direction of a rock? Do you believe God lives in the black rock or in a building like the Kaaba? I don�t believe so! True religion is not following religious symbols like bowing to a rock or a building. In the Old tetament in Deuteronomy 10:16 it says "The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." Jesus (pbuh) fulfilled and confirmed this when he said - "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." John 4:23-24 YOUR REPLY It is really interesting that Jews and Christians claim to hold same book sacred, but deny each others believes. Jews say Jesus was not the Messiah, MY RESPONSE All the first believers in Jesus as the Messiah were Jews and Jesus was Jewish (unlike Mohammad). There are many Old Testament prophecies that point to Him as The Messiah. All of the Old Testament laws and religious festivals of the Jews are accomplished through Jesus the Messiah. YOUR REPLY and the Christians say God is not one of one but is three in One something that Jews do not beleive and that their Lord (Jesus) was a Jew! What a mess? MY RESPONSE As mentioned to you before the Jewish scriptures do point to 3 and at times even more aspects to the ONE God. While the tenakh (Old testament) does not mention the trinity (and neither does the New testament for that matter) there are many verses in the Old testament that point to 3 or more aspects of God. For example- Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis. 11:7 and Psalm 45:6-7. Also a Jewish plural (adjective - consisting of, containing, or pertaining to more than one) name for God is �Elohim�. It is plural in grammar and often corresponds to the word �cluster� like a cluster of grapes, meaning God is like a cluster with many aspects. The plural form for god is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. YOUR REPLY You mentioned Hindus, let me inform you that all religions are a deviation from the one and only true religion that God revealed to Adam the first man and onto the mankind later on through many other prophets to teach submission only to God, to our Creator. That is the reason that all religions show some signs of similarities in some of their practices. MY RESPONSE Yes all religions are deviations from the one true religion. But these religions can also have satanic demonic influences and false gods that influence them. YOUR REPLY It is really interesting that Jews and Christians claim to hold same book sacred, but deny each others believes. Jews say Jesus was not the Messiah, and the Christians say God is not one of one but is three in One something that Jews do not beleive and that their Lord (Jesus) was a Jew! What a mess? MY RESPONSE It is not a mess if you try not to make it a mess. All the first believers in Jesus as the Messiah were Jews. The Jewish people have always been a stiff knecked people in obeying God. The prophets knew that. Much of what keeps them from seeing the truth is the ignorance of their own scriptures and their traditions. The Old testament prophecies point to Jesus and all of the Old Testament laws and religious festivals of the Jews are accomplished through Jesus the Messiah. As mentioned to you before, the Jewish scriptures do point to 3 and at times even more aspects to the ONE God. While the tenakh (Old testament) does not mention the trinity (and neither does the New testament for that matter) there are many verses in the Old testament that point to 3 or more aspects of God. For example- Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis. 11:7 and Psalm 45:6-7. Also a Jewish plural (adjective - consisting of, containing, or pertaining to more than one) name for God is �Elohim�. It is plural in grammar and often corresponds to the word �cluster� like a cluster of grapes, meaning God is like a cluster with many aspects. The plural form for god is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. YOUR REPLY May God of Moses, David, Jesus, and Mohammed (pbut) guide you and us all to the truth. MY RESPONSE Thank you for your blessing of the God of Moses, David and Jesus guiding me and us all to the truth. However I do not recognize Mohammad as a prophet in the bloodline of the Jewish prophets but I do respect your blessing all the same. Regards David |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 1:21pm
And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazorenes, Lection 33, verses 1-2) Can the blood offering of the law take away sin? To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice. |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 1:42pm
Why would you quote a non-canonical source in your argument? Why not stick with the canon:
The next day he (John the Baptist) saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29
The Quran says that John the Baptist is a Prophet of Islam--why do you reject his witness? ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 7:58pm
Dear newbie,
can you address what you are asked rather than saying things over and over that make no sense, repeating like a parrot.
Honestly can you read my post above and address it. If you cannot use logic, sense, and truthfulness in your practice, what use your efforts and existance means? I pray for your guidance.
Thank you Mansoor and others for showing those answers based on logic, evidance, and most important the truth. I hope that newbie understands that first qualification toward one's salvation is being truthful.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 March 2011 at 2:42pm
See this is typical Christian special pleading. You know you are cornered since the OT clearly contradicts the NT, so you jump to quoting the NT ad nauseum as if it overrules the OT! You asked "Then what is the purpose of the sacrificial system of the Law, the Tabernacle..." You got me, buddy! It ain't my problem since I don't accept the Bible! It is a problem for you since there is a clear contradiction here. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 16 March 2011 at 1:25pm
As I've told you before, if you don't accept the Bible then you don't accept the Quran since the Quran adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity. Let me state it for you mathematically:
X = God's Word
A = the Old Testament B = the New Testament
C= the Quran
The Christian position is valid: X= A + B
where: B builds upon the foundation of A via progressive revelation and B is in perfect agreement with A.
The theoretical position of the Quran is also valid as stated in verses like Surah 3:3:
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
where: X = A + B + C
where: C builds upon the foundation of B and A via progressive revelation and C is in perfect agreement with B and A.
However, even a cursory examination of the Quran yields the following equation:
A + B ≠ C
thus since X = A + B is valid then one can only conclude that C ≠ X
In summary, you cannot simply dismiss entire portions of the Bible, such as the OT sacrificial and Tabernacle because you do not like them. If the Quran is God's word then it must be able to be harmonized with the Bible, and since it cannot be, it cannot be God's Word. ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 2:03pm
And I thoroughly refuted this as a crock. This pathetic attempt at reverse psychology is not grounded in fact. What you fail to realize (as so many of your brethren do) is that even if you are right (which you are not), you still have not done anything to refute the arguments against the Bible. Hence, if the Bible is wrong (as I showed) and you believe that the Quran is also wrong by default since it upholds the Bible (which it does not), then we both have a problem, as both religions would be wrong. By appealing to what the Quran says and ignoring the problems in the Bible, you are not strengthening the Bible. Rather, you are showing that neither religion is right. Therefore, we would both have to reconsider our faiths (perhaps becomes deists or something )...Of course, this is all hypothetical as the Quran does not uphold the Bible, as I showed. You have offered no conclusive rebuttal, besides just mindless repetition. And after all of this, the contradictions between the OT and the NT remain unexplained.
This is complete BS with no supporting evidence. Logic is not how you see it. It is what it is. The evidence shows that A ≠ B, which explains the contradictions. The Christian cop-out is "well, it was a progressive revelation". Even if this was true, one would expect the progressive revelation to not be contradicting anything that came before. Yet, this is exactly what we see. Therefore, the second part of your claim ("B is in perfect agreement with A") is also false.
Actually, I think the better schematic would be A ≠ B ≠ C ≠ A. This is seen quite clearly when one looks at the issue from a non-biased perspective. Of course, there are similarities as well. One could argue that on the issue of God, A + C ≠ B, since the trinity is not found in either the OT or the Quran (I know we are discussing this in the other thread, but I refer to it here for argument's sake). We could also argue that on the issue of the second coming, A ≠ B + C, and so on and so forth.
This is a straw-man argument. I never said what my opinions were on this matter. That is not the issue. The issue is that there is a clear contradiction between the NT's idea of repentance and the previous idea espoused in the OT. Your entire response has tried to evade this issue. You have wasted your response with petty nonsense and meanderings. As a result, your admirable (yet flawed) attempt at logic fails as you made no effort to disprove the contradictions and hence your "logical" argument was doomed from the beginning. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 8:32pm
Iam sorry but you are acting as a hard headed person, and I don't want to address you as such.
See the person who keep neglecting what is shown to them as evidance simply shows how serious they are, or what is there reality.
In your case you seem to deny the fact that in Islam through Quran we know that what is called Gospel, Torah and Psalams were sent by God. The Quran also tells us that people have altered their teachings, we see the same being told in what we currently know as OT. And I have shown you those referances by writing those quotes supporing what I am saying. And you fail to disprove any of my points, so you take the loser's approach by repeating again and agian that has no basees and what is irrelevent.
You are childish and silly to say that 'Quran has to be harmonized with the Bible'. The Quran is pure word of God still with us in the language it was revealed and first written. What you refer to as the Bible does not exist in its original language nor condition. In reality it is altered by men, and any of God's word that is altered by man loses its value as such (as word of God) even if a word is altered, accordingto itself. And there are many Biblical scholars, and even if you read the preface to you Bible, it clearly says and admits of those alterations. If your Bible has a preface please take time to read it and you will see that what I have said it is absolutely true.
Here is the funny thing, the Old Testament you claim is in perfect agreement with the New Testament. If that was true those who follow the OT and those who follow the NT would be same and agree with each other. And here is the funny thing and a fact, both disagree with each other, greatly.
One worship God as one of One, the other say God is three persons. One says Jesus was God, the other says he was an illegitimate child (may God guide them). A and B in agreement you claim? Ha Ha, you must be a very funny man brother.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 11:34am
We donot know who is a author of Gospel of John?whether he was a disciple or not?we donot know. how can we accept such ambiguous statement? |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 1:09pm
The Apostle John
Who is buried in Grant's tomb (since we are asking painfully obvious questions)? ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 3:10pm
|
Honeto (Hasan) I am still waiting for a reply to my 13 march post to you.
|
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 4:44pm
To Egwpisteuw Note:I am quoting Brother Ibn Anwar (Bold and Text colour are mine) When we examine the Bible closely we see that what is preached by Christians and Hebrews 9:22 which says that �without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins� are not compatible with the overwhelming verses and passages found in both the Old and New Testaments that convey the idea of forgiveness without the need of anyone�s blood, Jesus or otherwise. In Mark 1:4 we read, John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. This was years before the alleged crucifixion ever took place. There was no blood involved. John was calling for the remission of sins from the baptism of repentance.The People�s New Testament says that John in the above verse, �makes the temple sacrifices unnecessary for forgiveness and reconciliation with God��which means that blood is not really necessary for forgiveness of sins after all! In the next chapter in Mark 2, verse 5 we read the following, �When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, �Son, your sins are forgiven.� Where was the blood atonement to remove the sins of the paralytic? This too took place long before the alleged crucifixion yet he was forgiven! What was the purpose behind the alleged sacrifice of Jesus exactly?Christians tell us that it is to facilitate the forgiveness of sins which is necessary for entrance into paradise. But we have just illustrated with two explicit verses that God is not incapable of forgiving sins without the shedding of blood.Be it the blood of Jesus, sheep, ram, bulls or cows. If God can forgive without blood then that clearly renders the alleged crucifixion redundant and simply cruel, inhumane and barbaric. In Luke 15, verses 11 to 32 we read about the parable of the Prodigal Son. In this story the son runs away from the father and goes into difficulty and suffering. He later comes to his senses and makes a return to his father. The father is overjoyed and calls for celebration. The son confesses that he sinned against heaven and against his beloved father, but because of his realisation and repentance the father remarks, �For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found�. This parable captures the true and original teaching of Jesus about forgiveness and atonement. One has only to make a sincere resolution not to commit past errors and sincerely pray and ask God for forgiveness to earn His pleasure and be cleansed of sins. Blood is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins. Recommended: http://unveilingchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/salvation-only-comes-through-sacrifice/ - |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 4:46pm
We donot know who is a author of Gospel of John?whether he was a disciple or not?we donot know. how can we accept such ambiguous statement? |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 4:54pm
The Apostle John
Who is buried in Grant's tomb (since we are asking painfully obvious questions)? ------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 5:21pm
1. Blood sacrifice was necessary to pay the penalty for sins and remove the sin barrier as a propitiation to a Holy God:
without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Heb 9:22
This was accomplished at the cross.
2. After salavation, when a believer commits personal sins, confession of sins is necessary to regain the filling of the Holy Spirit:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
Forgiveness in #1 requires a Blood Sacrifice
Forgiveness in #2 requires confession of sins
You must rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15)--when you do, all your supposed difficulties disappear like rain puddles exposed to the sunlight.
Nifty how that works, isn't it. The scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35)
------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 20 March 2011 at 11:08am
|
It seems to me that Eqwpisteuw's strategy is to repeat his argument ad nauseum, in the hope that someone will just give up and believe him. He completely ignores everything which refutes him and simply responds with the same repetitive nonsense. Once again, the blood sacrifice argument is refuted with the following (which I have pointed out several times now): Another example can be seen in how the NT views atonement and how the OT views. On the other thread, you appealed to Leviticus 17:11, claiming that it states that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for one's sins (even if it was, it contradicts the NT in that the sacrifice can only be made at the altar in the temple). This contradicts other verses in the OT which state clearly that repenting is perfectly acceptable: "Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. " (Isaiah 55:7-8) You can also read Leviticus 5 which states that one can even use flour if he cannot afford a lamb or pigeons! [Source: http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=368:testimony-of-scripture&catid=72:scriptural-studies&Itemid=408 - Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal, "The Testimony of Scripture" ] (Darn, that wasn't 100 words! Oh well!) ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 21 March 2011 at 9:48am
|
@Islamispeace you keep ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
What was the purpose of the OT sacrificial system, the Levitical Offerings that required a blood sacrifice, the temple, the tabernacle, all those innocent animals killed over all those centuries?
You have absolutely no explanation for this and I am going to continue to confront you with it until you understand that these sacrifices pointed to Jesus Christ:
knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, http://bible.cc/1_peter/1-19.htm - 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ 1 Peter 1:18-19
------------- Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν Christ died for us |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 March 2011 at 11:54am
Posted By: honeto Date Posted: 22 March 2011 at 3:34pm
Posted By: Experiential Date Posted: 23 March 2011 at 12:14am
Posted By: islamispeace Date Posted: 23 March 2011 at 8:31pm
Posted By: Experiential Date Posted: 24 March 2011 at 2:44am
Posted By: islamispeace Date Posted: 25 March 2011 at 11:55am
Posted By: Egwpisteuw Date Posted: 25 March 2011 at 4:09pm
Posted By: Egwpisteuw Date Posted: 25 March 2011 at 4:31pm
Posted By: Sign*Reader Date Posted: 26 March 2011 at 1:42pm
Posted By: Sign*Reader Date Posted: 26 March 2011 at 2:51pm
Posted By: islamispeace Date Posted: 26 March 2011 at 3:54pm
Posted By: islamispeace Date Posted: 26 March 2011 at 4:01pm
Posted By: Egwpisteuw Date Posted: 27 March 2011 at 5:33am
Posted By: islamispeace Date Posted: 27 March 2011 at 11:08am
Posted By: Experiential Date Posted: 27 March 2011 at 3:58pm
Posted By: Mansoor_ali Date Posted: 28 March 2011 at 2:53am
Posted By: islamispeace Date Posted: 28 March 2011 at 3:42pm
Posted By: Experiential Date Posted: 28 March 2011 at 4:49pm
Posted By: islamispeace Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 11:41am
Posted By: Experiential Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 5:03pm
Posted By: honeto Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:33pm
Posted By: truthnowcome Date Posted: 06 April 2011 at 11:23pm
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