The idea above is not necessarily new.   Check it out.

Thanks very much, Islamispeace.  I really appreciate the response.  Much!  

You said:
I think what you have said makes sense but it is nothing new.  There are many similarities between Islam and Christianity.  No one will deny that.  The problem is that the differences are in the most important issues, such as the status of Jesus.  Let's face it.  Similarities in accepting the authority of Moses (pbuh) as a prophet or agreeing that Allah is merciful and loving is trumped by the differences is the way we look at Jesus (pbuh).  Christians worships Jesus as God.  This is blasphemy to Muslims.  Conversely, that Muslims deny Jesus as God is blasphemous to Christians.  These are grave differences and they unfortunately trump the similarities.

I'm aware of the grave differences, and frankly, they'll probably be here to stay.  I mentioned those as well.  However, my issue is the issue of faith-grounded "neighborliness" between the faithful members of the "People(s) of the Book."

From the orthodox Christian perspective, the Great Commandments of loving God with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength...and loving the "neighbor" (any and all other human beings) as oneself.  From the Christian standpoint, both Paul and Jesus affirm that loving the neighbor as the self (as conceptualized in Leviticus 19:9-18) encapuslates the core meaning of the Torah and the Prophets.  That means REGARDLESS of whatever "blasphemous" belief a person may have, orthodox Christians are faith-bound, by allegience to God's Messiah and Prophet Jesus as he reified the central truths of the Torah, to love the Muslim as themselves and in so doing, demonstrate love for Jesus' God.  If a Christian believes that Jesus is a genuine "messenger" from God and his chosen Messiah, then they cannot just treat Muslim faithful in any kind of mean or unjust way.  Why?  Because they are "NEIGHBORS."  If I saw any supposedly self-reflective, knowledgeable Christian that did any thing other than love their Muslim "neighbors" as themselves in and through loving God, I would say that they were being quite inconsistent with their faith in Jesus and his proclaimed Truth.  There's absolutely no denying that for Christians.

The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus are mentioned here as scriptures that were sent by God for the purpose of guidance.  As such, Muslims are required, by faith, to believe in the unaltered, original Torah and Gospel as books of revelation.  However, emphasis must be placed on the word "original" because Muslims believe that the Torah and Gospel were altered by the hands of men in later generations.

He's talking about some means of " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahrif - tahrif " of the Torah that's been taken to supposedly obscure things in it, right?  Well, I think that's a major question I have: Is the message of Leviticus 19:9-18) one of the things that has been claimed to have been "corrupted" by Jews or Christians? Is there any Islamic authoritative source that basically says that the subject matter is Leviticus 19:9-18 of the Torah is "corrupted" and is therefore not applicable for Muslim faith? There is no way that the Torah can just be totally thrown out of hand.  I've not seen anything that says that absolutely every verse in the Torah is unusable for guidance by Allah.  (If there is such a thing, I would love for you brothers and sisters to show me such.  that'd be so helpful! )

It appears to me that if there is no justifiable reason to "throw out" Leviticus 19:9-18 (and it's relatively simple injunctions about not stealing, not lying, not promoting injustice, etc), then it would seem that self-reflective knowledgeable Muslims are just as faith-bound by that Torah-truth as Christians are. 

I'll say this flat-out:

Same as it ever was....same as it ever was...same as it ever was...same as it ever was...  (David Byrne, baby...)

Islamispeace:
Boy, you really have a lot to say!

Yeah.  I guess I have mania when it comes to these kinds of subjects. Ha!    And much thanks for taking the time to really engage it.  Kudos!

Islamispeace:
I pretty much agree with everything you have written and if I understand you correctly, your main point is that there is no reason for Christians and Muslims [not] to be neighborly with each other.  Am I right?  If so, then I agree wholeheartedly!

I'm glad there's agreement!  At the same time, I'm actually stating something a lot stronger than that.  My point is not merely there there's no religious reason for not being neighborly. My main point is that orthodox Christians and orthodox Muslims are absolutely committed--by FAITH in their own Holy Books and obedience to the Torat/Injeel teaching of the Holy Prophet and Messenger of God, Jesus/Isa--to showing "neighborliness" to each other. I want to say this in the strongest possible terms: if what's been said is accepted, then Christians and Muslims cannot fully be in "submission" to God unless they love their neighbors as themselves per faithful obedience to Jesus/Isa's re-affirmation of Torah of Moses.  Doing "neighborliness" to the other is essential to proper exercise of Christian and Muslim faith.  For Christians and Muslims to refuse to "love the neighbor as the self" --for whatever reason--is to directly contradict God's will as declared by God's Prophet and Messenger, Jesus/Isa. It is to willfully transgress Allah's revealed commandment for human beings.  That should be a big no-no for a person of genuine faith...whether Muslim or Christian.

Basically, I'm saying that a person can't be a fully-faithful, orthodox Muslim or Christian without obeying Jesus/Isa's teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".   What do you think about that statement, IslamisPeace?  Agree? Disagree?

'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.'
The Words of Jesus/Isa in Surah 43:63-64

In the thread, http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17363 - "Fundamental Articles of Faith", samirfaithful posted some material from From http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Focus-Hammudah-Abd-Al-Ati/dp/0915957744#_ - Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's "Islam in Focus".   Among these were 3 I thought very important to this discussion...

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1. He believes in One God, Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Compassionate, Creator and Provider. This belief, in order to be effective, requires complete trust and hope in God, submission to His Will and reliance on His aid. It secures man's dignity and saves him from fear and despair, from guilt and confusion. The reader is invited to see the meaning of Islam as explained above.

2. He believes in all the messengers of God without any discrimination among them. Every known nation had a warner or messenger from God. These messengers were great teachers of the good and true champions of the right. They were chosen by God to teach mankind and deliver His Divine message. They were sent at different times of history and every known nation had one messenger or more. During certain periods two or more messengers were sent by God at the same time to the same nation. The Holy Qur'an mentions the names of twenty-five of them, and the Muslim believes in them all and accepts them as authorized messengers of God. They were, with the exception of Muhammad, known as "national" or local messengers. But their message, their religion, was basically the same and was called ISLAM, because it came from One and the Same Source, namely, God, to serve one and the same purpose, and that is to guide humanity to the Straight Path of God. All the messengers with no exception whatsoever were mortals, human beings, endowed with Divine revelation, and appointed by God to perform certain tasks. Among them Muhammad stands as the Last Messenger and the crowning glory of the foundation of prophethood. This is not an arbitrary attitude, nor is it just a convenient belief. Like all the other Islamic beliefs, it is an authentic and logical truth. Also, it may be useful to mention here the names of some of the great messengers like Noah and Abraham, Ishmael and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon them all. The Qur�an commands the Muslims thus:

We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes; and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to all prophets from their Lord. We make no discrimination between one and another of them, and we bow to God (2:136, cf. 3:84; 4:163-165; 6:84-87).

3. The true Muslim believes, as a result of article two, in all the scriptures and revelations of God. They were the guiding light which the messengers received to show their respective peoples the Right Path of God. In the Qur�an a special reference is made to the books of Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus. But long before the revelation of the Qur�an to Muhammad some of those books and revelations had been lost or corrupted, others forgotten, neglected, or concealed. The only authentic and complete book of God in existence today is the Qur�an. In principle, the Muslim believes in the previous books and revelations. (YO's Note: The Torat and the Injeel) But where are their complete and original versions? They could be still at the bottom of the Dead Sea, and there may be more Scrolls to be discovered. Or perhaps more information about them will become available when the Christian and Jewish archaeologists reveal to the public the complete original findings of their continued excavations in the Holy Land. For the Muslim, there is no problem of that kind. The Qur�an is in his hand complete and authentic. Nothing of it is missing and no more of it is expected. Its authenticity is beyond doubt, and no serious scholar or thinker has ventured to question its genuineness. The Qur�an was made so by God Who revealed it and made it incumbent upon Himself to protect it against interpolation and corruption of all kinds. Thus it is given to the Muslims as the standard or criterion by which all the other books are judged. So whatever agrees with the Qur�an is accepted as Divine truth, and whatever differs from the Qur�an is either rejected or suspended. God says: 'Verily We have, without doubt, sent down the Qur�an, and We will assuredly guard it� (15: 9; cf. 2:75- 79; 5: 1 3-14, 41, 45, 47; 6:91 ; 41:43).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12407793 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12407793

There is an EXCELLENT OPPORTUNITY here right now to promote the spirit of " http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1 - A Common Word Between Us and You  "...but we've got to proclaim this truth while the window of opportunity is open!

Thanks, mods. 

Hi,

Honeto:
I don't mean to be the black sheep here, but apart from what everyone agrees what about some real issues like associating with God the son and the holy ghost. That is something that is against basic fundamantals of not just Quran but of the Bible. Similarly, when one come accross painted and carved images and representations or I should call misrepresentation of God's beloved people (as no one who painted these images or carved these idols has personally ever seen them) like Jesus, Mary, God, Saints and so on and see people bowing, kneeling and worshipping them. While such acts are forbidden both in Quran and the Bible, how should one settle and accept these acts by others when God has said to have disliked them and warned against a terrible panelty to those practicing them?

I can understand living in peace with all fellow being, but it is not to be based on how many similarities we find between our beliefs rather it is a command from God. Worship of idols and that of other than God is wrong, and it must be pointed out like all the prophets did when they were sent to guide people.  They taught their people to do the same, we must not accept false worship or worship to anyone other than God as an acceptable act even be done by our own brother or sister. It is wrong and must be discussed and the correction made. Of course it is upto the person to decide for themself at the end, for which they will be held responsible.

Thanks for responding, Honeto!  Good stuff. 

Honeto:
First, the command of living in peace with others that I follow as a Muslim is not somthing that I take from the Bible rather the Final Testament, The Quran, which in my observation and examination proved to be more reliable and authentic then the modified versions left with us of what was revealed before it.  Islam's message through Quran is that of peace and justice, peace an individual achieves and that what radiates outward from the heart of a believer toward all created beings.

Well, that's awesome that, as a Muslim being obedient to the Quran, you seek to promote peace and justice.  That's great.

But none of that has to do with the substance (or lack thereof) of the line of thought I'm setting forth. I understand that you hold the Quran to be the "Final Testament".  At the same time, it seems that  a "true Muslim" (per Hammudat Abd Al-Ati) is bound by that same "Final Testament" to hold authentic Torat and Injeel as authoritative Muslim faith.  Please look at his statements again.  Do you disagree with his (and others') assessment on that score?

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Honeto:
In Islam we believe that what the last Prophet (pbuh) taught was no different than what Isa (pbuh) or prophets taught before him. Do we have with us today what previous prophets were given as word of God pure and unaltered. A simple obeservation reveals the true answer.

That's what Maulana Maududi's commentary is supposed to be helpful for: helping to discern the authentic, discoverable Torat and Injeel from the inauthentic.  I'm using HIS criteria here.  Do you disagree with Mr. Maududi's commentary and what it says?

Honeto:
The Quran is the final word, anyone including myself may not fully grasp it, we can only have a clear intention of understanding, beleiving and living by it.  On the issues that the Quran has clearly solved for us, we need not to find mystry or other meaings that we will prefer to see in it. That will be covering up the truth when it is made clear to us.

Sure.  And one of the things that is crystal clear in the Quran is that Jesus is a Messenger and Prophet of God whom Allah himself had given "the Scripture" (19:27-29)...even as he reaffirmed what came before him (61:6).

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Honeto:
On the issue of Torat and Injeel, yes we beleive that they were from God, not because anyone else told us, no, rather God Almighty has told us that through His Final Word, the Quran.

Exactamundo.

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Honeto:
God Almighty tells us through His Final Word, the Quran that people changed word of God and altered the scriptures sent before the Quran. I take Quaran's word as Final, and my own study of the Bible proved that Bible is the altered word and thus unreliable.

That's why the Maududi commentary is so important.  He specifically lays out what is reliable and what is not reliable.  Unless someone wants to say that he is not a true authority for healthy Muslim theology, I don't see why they wouldn't take what he had to say on the matter seriously.

Again, do you disagree with Mr Maududi's persepective?

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Honeto:
God Almighty has sent His Final Word the Quran as source and guidance from the All knowing. What there is left to figure out other than to follow what it says.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

From what I'm understanding of this passage, it's saying that the Muslim believes equally in the prophetic truths of Moses and Jesus as prophets of God.  So, if Jesus is a prophet of God from the Quran's perspective...and Quranically speaking, a Muslim is supposed to be believing in "what was revealed" to Moses and Jesus...and if good reason can be shown justifying the belief that what was "revealed" to Moses was the "Great Commandments" taught by Jesus, is there reason to completely ignore the teaching of a sinless Prophet that is venerated so highly?  That doesn't make much sense to me...but that's just me.

I appreciate the interaction, Honeto.  Sweet.

Honeto:
In other words, if we take the last Prophet (pbuh) and book, the Quran, they were sent for our times. Those of us who were born after him and the Quran sent through him will be judged by it's teachings and standards. It is the book according to which we aught to live out lives. Now those who were born before the revelation of the Quran will be judged on the bases of what was revealed for that time through Pophet Jesus (pbuh).

So, we can follow the examples of any prophets that are mentioned in the Final Testament, the Quran and the hadith beside's the example of the Prophet (pbuh)himself, and these are the only valid sources for our times upon which we will be judged.

Let's say that as a "person of the Book", specifically a Christian, I look at the Quran as the standard for "our time", ok?  Let's see what I see...

"And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)."

"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

Now, this is what I get from this verse...and you can tell me if I'm wrong on this...

Whoever the "people of the Gospel" are need to "judge" themselves by what Allah has revealed within Jesus' Gospel and God's revelations "therein."  That's just what it says, right?  I can't see any other translation for what else that could mean. If you are a "person of the Gospel", you are Quranically bound to "judge" yourself by the Gospel of Jesus.  That's what the text simply says.

And thanks to the scholarly work of Maulana Maududi, I am able to reasonably discern what that Gospel most likely was.

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Honeto:
Not only that but fact is that the Quran and Old Testament tells us that those Scriptures has been tempered with, which can be easily varified by anyone's sincere efforts and just a few examples of inconsistancies would prove the point. We all know and beleive that a pure word of God would not fail to be consistant.

For the sake of argument, I am taking it as TRUE that "tahrif" exists, that the Scriptures have been "tampered with."  I'm not even arguing that point.  What I'm saying--AGAIN--is that Mr. Maududi, whom I'm told is a very reputable Muslim authority on the Quran and other Holy writing, has provided a commentary method of discern what the authentic Torat and Injeel are.  These are HIS WORDS...

"Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations."

This is Mr. Maududi HIMSELF.  Do you disagree with his perspective, Honeto.  I've asked you that a number of times and have failed to get an answer.  It's pretty important to the discussion though.

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Honeto:
Also, on one of your points in the first post on this page about God's love, kindness and Mercy with which I greatly agree but interestingly that is very inconsistant with Christianity's doctrine of so called "killing and blood sacrifice of Christ' as the only way to attonment and salvation for others. I don't see any Love, Peace or Mercy in that act of shedding blood!! Help me undrstand??

My "first point" is specifically talking about the Great Commandments (ie Deut 6:4-6 and Lev. 19:9-18).  I am not talking about the relationship of blood sacrifices and God's love. (Then we'd be talking about the whole Old Testament sacrificial system, which takes us far afield.)  Let's stick with that.

http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/3/index.html - More Maududi...

From the Note on Quran 3:3...

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The Old Testament was compiled by Ezra, when the Israelites returned home to Jerusalem after their captivity in Babylon and built the Temple anew. Ezra gathered together some prominent men of his community, and with their help compiled the whole history of Israel which now comprises the first 17 books of the Bible. Of these Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronorny tell the life history of Prophet Moses and include those verses of the real Taurat which became available to Ezra and his assistants, who incorporated them in those books at appropriate places in the chronological order of their revelation. Thus it is obvious that the Pentateuch as a whole is not the Taurat but includes it. The real Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them. Such portions where the author says, "God said to Moses," or Moses said, The Lord your God says," the Taurat begins, and where the narrative of the life story is resumed, there that part of the Taurat ends. At those places the author of the Bible has inserted certain things by way of explanation or commentary, and it is here that the ordinary reader fails to distinguish the real Taurat from the commentary. However, those who have an insight into the nature of Divine Scriptures, can distinguish, to some degree of exactness, the explanatory. notes from the revealed verses.

According to the Qur'an, only such scattered portions in the Pentateuch are the Taurat and it confirms them alone. And this can be testified by putting together these verses and comparing them with the Qur'an. Here and there one might come across a minor difference in their details, but one cannot find even the slightest difference between the fundamental teachings of the two. Even today one can see clearly that both the Scriptures have come from the same source.

Likewise, the Injil is the name of those inspired discourses and sayings which Jesus (Allah's peace be upon him) uttered as a prophet during the last couple of years of his life. We have no means now of ascertaining whether these pious utterances were recorded and compiled during the lifetime of Jesus. In the introduction to his translation of the Bible, Moffat says, "Jesus wrote nothing and for a time his immediate disciples felt no impulse to write any account of him. The data of the historical Jesus, therefore is based on the vivid recollections and traditions of the primitive Palestinian disciples. How soon their materials took written shape we cannot tell, but at least one written record of them was probably in existence by about A.D.50." Anyhow, when, long after his recall, the stories of Jesus were compiled in the shape of four Gospels, (the period of the composition of Mark, the tirst to be composed was 65-75 A.D.), some of his written or inspired sayings were also inserted at appropriate places in the historical sketches. Thus it is obvious that the first four Gospels are not the Injil, the discourses and sayings of Jesus, but they contain it. We have no means of recognizing thetas from the works of the authors except this: Wherever the authors say "Jesus said so or taught so and so," there the Injil begins and where they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Qur'an, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are condensed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Qur'an, one will tied no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking.

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Does anyone here disagree with Mr. Maududi's view on this? If so, why?

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"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying...": Leviticus 19:1

�Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it: Deuteronomy 6:1

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. �Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� And he (Jesus) said to him, �You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�: Matthew 22:34-40