Shiitism
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: Matters/topics, related to various sects, are discussed where only Muslims who may or may not belong to a sect take part.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1869
Printed Date: 17 December 2024 at 11:06pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Shiitism
Posted By: Ya Sayedi
Subject: Shiitism
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 12:33am
|
The Glorious Quran was revealed on Prophet Muhammed Mustafa (sallu-aliya-wali-wasalm) not on Hadhart ALi(RA)
Do u guys ever utilise ur brain in proper way? It's ALLAH(Subhanwa'talh) who gives STATUS AND RANK..NOT HUMAN BEINGS.. Every religion is CORRUPTED BY HUMAN BEINGS..besides ISLAM(Sunnism) I wonder y many people hate /dislike our Prophet MUHAMMED(Sallau-aliya-wali-wasalm) where infact this entire Universe was created for him.
My advice is:Do not waste ur time in arguin' fighting like cats and dogs TURN TO ALLAH(swt) ASK HIM TO GUIDE YOU. Inshallah-ul-azim, He will either show u a miracle or dream Jus ASK HIM DON'T TURN TO HUMAN BEING OR SEEK THEIR ADVICE. I wouldn't! Again, do not turn to Human being. fullstop You could be in great error .WHO KNOWS..and this is OUR only FIRST AND LAST CHANCE. So, jus turn to ALLAH(SWT)..and ask him directly..
|
Replies:
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 9:38am
Really? |
Ya Sayedi wrote:Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 15 August 2005 at 9:57pm
| This universe was not created for Muhammad.....That knowledge is left for God. Perhaps in our limited understanding we can forego this type of thinking. True Prophet Muhammad was great in his own right but its nothing in comparison to the message he conveyed which all prophets have taught their people. Ya Sayedi I admire your admiration for the prophet but just a friendly reminder be careful of your words. The last comment which Deus posted seemed to be really extreme |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 03 September 2008 at 10:28am
|
U said: The Glorious Quran was revealed on Prophet Muhammed Mustafa (sallu-aliya-wali-wasalm) not on Hadhart ALi(RA)....
can somebody be more baseless in his words?????? plz dont believ in myths and baseless stories......this is to other sunni bros in this forum....
|
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 4:46am
|
Ya Syedi was right. He did not write anything wrong about the Quran being revealed on the heart of Muhammad and not on Hazrat Ali. There is nothing wrong with that. asda is also right.
It is better to be careful because there are all kinds of foolish person trying to spread mischief. I don't say it is asda. But there are some very ignorant uneducated people who say funny things.
So good-bye to them without any harm to any one. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 4:01am
| br. how can this guy Ya Syedi be right on his blame on shias that shias believe that the Quran shud infact be revealed on Imam Ali (a.s) (maazallah)...this is a tohmat....we shurly dont believe that...The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (a.s) by Allah's will....and no one has the right to deny it....no shia denies it... |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 8:59pm
|
yes, asda, thanks for your clarification. But you do not know the beliefs of all the shias. There are many branches in the Shias and they are now spread all over the world. They all do not believe as you do.
It is better for Ya Sayedi to be careful and not bring any point in advance before some one has uttered something. It is possible that in his area, the Shias may be having some special ideas as they always have for Hazrat Ali. i.e. some misconceptions about real Quran and Hazrat Ali. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 1:53am
| u knw wat bro......i am DYING to meet a shia with such beliefs....i knw and am fully aware about the variations in our beliefs.....but such a belief does not exist...even on the internet i could not find EVEN ONE shia website which such claims...i hav seen these sentences only on anti-shia sites... |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 9:25pm
|
. . . "And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah (i.e. this Qur'an), and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allah's Favor on you, . . . "
"As for those who Divide their Religion and Break up into Sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the Truth of all that they did." [Quran 6:159]
"And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment." [Quran 3:100 - 3:105]"
Ya Sayedi, kindly stop creating mischief, and riling people. It is the month of Ramadhan, that of all things, should deter you. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 4:28pm
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-cults15-2008oct15,0,5061353.story - How do you explain this? Shiite cults seek to wreak havoc in IraqBAGHDAD
-- Falling into a depression after her husband was killed last year,
Iman immersed herself in religious studies and became fixated on a
Shiite Muslim saint.
Soon, a secretive group of worshipers tried to recruit the young widow, telling her that she could help bring the holy figureback to Earth. All she had to do was sleep with the group's male followers.
Horrified, Iman, now 20, refused.
Devout Sunnis also believe in the Mahdi's coming, but do not think it involves the Shiite imam.Her experience shines a light on the rise in Iraq of fanatical cults devoted to Imam Mahdi, the Shiites' 12th imam. A descendant of the prophet Muhammad, he disappeared more than 1,000 years ago. The Shiite faithful believe that in the world's darkest hour, Imam Mahdi will return and bring justice and calm. But where mainstream Shiite believers wait patiently for that day, groups such as the one that tried to enlist Iman are convinced that they can hasten his reappearance by spreading chaos. Already, two Shiite cults have tried to stage violent uprisings in Iraq. In January 2007, as many as 250 followers of a group called Heaven's Army were killed when they massed to attack the Shiite shrine city of Najaf. A year later, as many as 80 people died in battles with the police and army during a revolt in Basra by another cult, Supporters of the Mahdi. Some experts speak of the cults nervously, afraid of being tracked down by the groups for talking about their mysterious practices. Dr. Hassan, a psychology professor at Baghdad's Mustansiriya University who declined to give his full name because of worries about his safety, explained that some Iraqis had embraced conservative Shiite traditions with zeal after the 2003 ouster of Saddam Hussein, who had oppressed the country's Shiite majority. "Before the war, the situation was different. To talk about religious things was forbidden and one could be arrested," Hassan said. "All these feelings bottled up inside and started to appear after Saddam's fall." Iman, who also declined to give her full name, discovered the world of cults as she sought solace in religion in the months after her husband's death. A friend suggested she do something positive while waiting for Imam Mahdi's return. "Her talks charmed me and made me think about heaven," Iman said. She opened up to her friend in a way she couldn't with her family. She told her friend how she had been lonely since her husband's death. "I liked to talk about my needs as a woman, and we were joking about many things. Unfortunately, sometimes I went too far talking about things I should never have talked about, but I was just joking," she said. The woman suggested that Iman sleep with her husband if she wanted to help speed up the Mahdi's return. "I looked at her and laughed. I thought she was joking. I told her, 'No, he is too old for me. I want someone younger,' " Iman said. "She said, 'I'm serious -- all you have to do is sleep with my husband.' " Others shared similar stories about the group, called Mumahidoon, or "those who prepare the way." Abu Jassem said the group preyed upon him when he was unemployed. His recruiter was a good friend who knew of his religious fervor, and of his need for money. The friend sweetened the deal with the promise of a stipend for joining the cult. But then he told Abu Jassem of the one catch: He had to let his fellow believers sleep with his wife, daughter and sister. "I was stunned but didn't show my astonishment. Later I told them I refused the idea because these things were against my traditions and religion." Although Iraqi security officials dismiss the idea that such cults pose a genuine threat, Hassan is not convinced. "The cults in our society," he warned, "could pose a danger." ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 9:54pm
the above picture says it all.... its da same media which was used time and again against HAQ...y do u think the kufaar wud say gud about muslims... if u want to chk how biased they are, just search for things like "islam in saudi arabia" and such stuff...u will get the facts.. and for a fact, they have loads of articles against the taliban that u support and islam....so if these people are saying the truth, according to u.....then i wonder if u r a muslim or not... |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 11:04pm
Duh! what planet do you live on? Do you know any better paper than LA Times? That all you can say am I Muslim? For sure I am not shiit and you know this is not shiit site! No I don't see anti Islam articles here! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 6:57am
If this wrong something to do with shia ,then asda would post bunch of dark stories on sunni since there are some extreme cult organizations do exist among sunni population.So I am afraid this discussion would turn meaningless exchange of bad stories . Do you thing it bring anything good to us?  Despite I am sunni Muslim who Hanifi in fiq ,I think Asda is doing better job here,his message at least brought light to common misunderstanding which we sunni fool ourselves with. by the way brother Asda, i have read a saying of our beloved prophet in which he said companions shouldn't be insulted ,but how are you Shia guys managed to skip this hedisth ? |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 12:33pm
|
ok....i dont mind u believing in words of kufaar..... seeing that u find them "Authentic"..... or let me say this "AUTHENTIC AGAINST SHIAS"..... dunno whre this hate will take u...
u know the media is against the muslims....and LAT is not naive to this situation..... u can search articles on womens rights on islam...u might find some.....and for a fact...many old news articles are not working....so its uselss... but still, probably u like muslim women being potrayed in the following way...dont u... http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-women1-2008jun01,0,5128164,full.story the writer has uselessly related the topic to islam... i can find more but have better things to do in life... |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 4:25pm
Look who is talking about hate when you know deep down in your heart, the shiasm is based on the hate of the Caliphs etc! that no one can deny! I love your contrived innocence! LAT reported some stuff produced in a place run by Hizbullah! LOL They report what is happening! Someone locally is putting in the effort and money on these programs, is it LAT's issue? Aw; thanks for the search and posting the link, I missed it in our print addition! BTW tell me what the name of your local paper and let me see what does it print! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 7:57pm
|
Asalaamu alaikum... I do not mean to be rude, but what is the point of this thread? I am sunni, and my husband is shia, we have been together over 20 years and have not killed each other (the first thing a person who does not know us that finds out asks if we war daily) I do not follow him in prayer. He is a legitimate Muslim that walks a slightly different path. Our one child between us. a son, has chosen the sunnipath. So why all the silliness here? It is the Kafir that cause any division. Muslim is muslim....Allah will be the Judge! ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 3:03am
|
Salaamu'alaikum..
first to br.Uighur.... thanx for ure post and appreciation...i agree with ure opinions raised on the way this thread is going..we have better things to talk about in this thread... can u please let me know where we shias "INSULT" the companions?? our stance towards the people who were with the Prophet (s.a.w) is same as the stance of H.Fatima (s.a)... if any difference is seen, then do let me know.... now to sis mariyah .. it is right that its uselss to "FIGHT" over issues...but discussion does help bring people closer....i have nothing against sunnis nor m sure u dont have anything personal against me...its just that we shud concentrate on removing the confusions between us... talking about confusions, this guy sign*reader is doing its best to prove something baseless...br Uighur is right that if i take ure (sign*reader)'s stance then its useless...as jahaalat exists on all sides..... but still if u want to raise ure question on things wich we believe then u are free....if i knw the answer..or the sources, i will try to adress it... btw....my local paper is not something i consider 100% authentic..specially wen it talks about islam..even if i live in a muslim country... they quote from sources such as Reuters and AFP...wich are kuffaar sources...so useless attempt man.... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 5:42am
|
member_profile.asp?PF=60379&FID=32 - Brother asda I know you guys love Ali and family of our prophet but scholars from sunni also very much like ahlul bayat ,for me Ali is one of the beloved person . Regarding your point ,according your source Ali was prevented from claiming Caliphhood by Abu Bakir ,Omer ,Osman . This is someting I can't understand but shia scholars can/t expalin this strange evet without using some sensitive languages to famous companions like Abu Bakir ,Omer ,Osman.That eventurally damage their own image among muslims . I think that is one important reason why marjoiry of Muslim reluctant to accept shia or do you have better theory to explain this issure ?...I mean without using unacceptable language when it concern with our respected companions |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 October 2008 at 4:42am
|
Salaams br Uighur
the sunnis are reluctunt to accept the shia belief is becaus of 1 REASON....and that is....NONE OF THEM KNOW WAT THE TRUE SHIA BELEIF IS......i am really serios wen i say this and it is not a stray comment.... i live in a majority sunni country, and have loads of sunni friends...and NONE of them know wat the true belief of shias are...i mean accusations like shias have 40 siparahs, shias indulge in dirty sexual acts in the haram of Imam Hussain (a.s), shias kill their children to have Niyaz, shias beat their chldren on ashura, shias hate sunnis, shias believs that Imam Ali(a.s) is Superior to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) (maazallah), shias say Imam ALi (a.s) is god(maazallah) and LOADS MORE TOHMAT ARE COMMON AROUND ME....and for a fact, not even ONE OF THEM IS CORRECT...and what surprised me is that all of this was told to them by SUNNI SCHOLARS which they followed..... well as for ure question goes, it is a vaast topic which can be devided into 2 parts.. 1: Did Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) select Imam Ali (a.s) as his successor, or in short, did Imam Ali (a.s) deserve to be the successor of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)? 2: Was Abu Bakr a person who deserved to be a successor? i want u to pick one of the 2 so that it will be easy for me to discuss the topic... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 18 October 2008 at 9:53am
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 9:09am
|
Br...
u have based the idea of khilafat on the very act of consensus among the muslims......other than than....no method works.....i hope i am clear on ure views... Allah (s.w.t) has said in the holy quran: 24:55. All�h has promised those among you who believe, and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the earth, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Isl�m). And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me. But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the F�siq�n (rebellious, disobedient to All�h). http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/surah24.html can u please show me the same consensus seen in the past before Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)??? beacuse the quran clearly confirms that the way of establishing khilafat will be the SAME as done b4..... it is highly prefferable to do the tafseer of Quran from Quran, thus it is better if u can bring an event in quran where such an act was done... obviosly, the next source is hadith...u can look into history....if u can find any...then do let me know.... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 10:06am
|
member_profile.asp?PF=60379&FID=32 - Brother asda What are you trying to say ? I am confused, perhaps i am not smart enough to get point ... Are you saying consensus is not matter before Allah .So we must keep our eyes on Allah's word & put the consensus aside no matter whose consensus would be . But how this common logic ,which no one can oppose ,something to with my argument ? Or is there a line in holy Quran that saying Imam Ali (a.s) deserve to be the successor of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) before Aba Bekir ? If you find a justification of such claim in Quran by using <highly prefferable tafseer of Quran from Quran> ,it indicate you have better understanding of Quran than Sahabe Kerim ,therefore we must take your enlighted opinion while consensus of derict student of our beloved prophet avaible ? But you know all knowlege we have on islam traced back to sahaba ,should we reconsider these knowlegde according you suggection since you have better understanding Quran ? |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 8:17pm
|
Allah (s.w.t) has said in the holy quran:
24:55. All�h has promised those among you who believe, and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the earth, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Isl�m). And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me. But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the F�siq�n (rebellious, disobedient to All�h). asda, the above is a translation you have given of the verse 24:55. The translation is quite good except that your translation has put in some condition. That is not there in the verse. You perhaps think that Allah will grant them the authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Isl�m). And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me as if it is something that they will have to do. That is not the case.
The verse stipulates that when they will be granted the Khilafat, the religion will be better established and fear will disappear. As a result, the believers will serve Allah and they will not associate any one with Allah. It is not a condition you have initiated as PROVIDED... There is no such thing.
It states that Khilafat will be established. The Momineen will serve Allah only. They will not associate any one with Allah. It also shows that they will not make dance halls and palaces and places of entertainment and dens of drunkards. It is giving correct news that THEY WILL SERVE aLLAH and NOT ASSOCIATE ANY WITH ALLAH.
Please do not say provided they will serve Allah and provided they will not do any Shirk. I agree to the translation except what I have pointed out above. You presentation can lead believers into wrong alleys.
Also, it is important to learn that the prophet s.a.w.s. said, "My companions (Sahabah) are like the shining stars. Whomsoever you will follow, you will be guided." ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 7:28am
|
member_profile.asp?PF=60379&FID=32 - Brother asda I am awaiting your respond?  |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 7:50am
|
Salaam'alaikum
br minuteman from ure post i have understood that u r trying to tell me that the verse is talking about ppl who will serve Allah (s.w.t) only....and will rule as per the rules provided by Allah (s.w.t)...and not bring rules from their pocket... secondly u say: the way Allah (s.w.t) will make a leader for the muslims is his own choice...and we are not the people to decide on it....it means that ANY WAY THAT ALLAH (S.w.t) CHOOSES..HAS TO BE PLAYED BY THE MUSLIMS ON EARTH...and so has to be accepted by ummah...then one does not have to see if he is a faasiq or not... but the history is full of people who abused the caliphate....e.g yazeed... now if u accept that the muslims made abu bakr the caliph, muslims also accepted yazid as the caliph...and the whole umayyad dynasty was accepted by muslims as their leaders...and they were considered as respected leaders of the ummah, weather they were Muttaqqi or faasiq....they way of choosing does not matter to u... so...how can people who are faasiq lead the ummah(varios examplaes)???? remember that u have already said that "ALLAH WILL MAKE KHILAFAT"...and "THE WAY HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED"...and if consensus among muslims apply as the WAY...then loads of people accepted yazid and umaayad the abaasid caliph.... HOW CAN ALL THIS HAPPEN ON ALLAH's INSTRUCTIONS... remember:i am not saying Allah (s.w.t) did not fulfill his promise (maazallah)...but i am trying to say is that the matter of khilafat if made thru consensus has many loop holes....and the deen of Allah (s.w.t) is perfect.. now to br Uighur u wanted a clear proof from quran with a reputable tafseer.. i am taking the following tafseer from the book asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi....the tafseer is of the verse of Surah Ma'idah...Aayat number 55... 1st we will look into the translation: Verily, your Wali (authority or guardian) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer). Translated by Dr. MT Al-Hilali & Dr. MM Khan the tafseer of this aayah as given by "asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi" (Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe�) [5:55>. Said Jabir ibn �Abd Allah: ��Abd Allah ibn Sallam went to the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, and said: �O Messenger of Allah, some people from Banu Qurayzah and Banu�l-Nadir have deserted us and swore not to keep our company. And we cannot keep the company of your Companions due to the distance separating us�. He then complained about the bad treatment he received from the Jews, and so this verse was revealed. When the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, read to him, he said: �We accept Allah, His Messenger and the believers as guardians� �. Al-Kalbi related something close to this and added that the end of the verse was revealed about �Ali ibn Abi Talib, for he gave his ring to a beggar while he was bowing during prayer. Abu Bakr al-Tamimi informed us> �Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Ja�far> al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Hurayrah> �Abd Allah ibn �Abd al-Wahhab> Muhammad ibn al-Aswad> Muhammad ibn Marwan> Muhammad ibn al-Sa�ib> Abu Salih> Ibn �Abbas who said: �Accompanied by a group of believers from amongst his people, �Abd Allah ibn Sallam came to see the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace. They said: �O Messenger of Allah, our houses are very far and we have no assembly or a place in which we can gather for chatting. When our people saw that we believed in Allah and His Messenger and confirmed his call, they eschewed us and vowed never to keep our company, speak with us or marry from or into us. This has proved too hard for us�. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, replied: �(Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe)�, up to the end of the verse. Then the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, went out to the mosque. Some people were standing in prayer while others were bowing. He saw a beggar in the mosque and he asked him: �Did you get something from anyone?� The beggar replied: �Yes, I got a ring of gold�. The Prophet asked him: �Who gave it to you?� The beggar said: �That person who is standing in prayer�, and he pointed to �Ali ibn Abi Talib. The Prophet asked him again: �In which position did he give it to you?� The beggar said: �He gave it to me while bowing in prayer�. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said �Allah is the greatest!� and then recited (And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious)� [5:56>. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0 - http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0 note: tafsir of "asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi" is considered to be one of the MAJOR TAFSEER by altafsir.com thus it should be clear that the WALI (authority or guardian)of believers was declared to be IMAM ALI (A.s)....i dont think there shud be any doubt in it by now... |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 10:11am
|
asda, I do not want to start any argument with you but you did not understand my point of view. First you should consider the people as pious who are electing or selecting the Khalifah.
It is the people who vote or elect. But because they are practicing believers, the Will of Allah guides them to the right person. That is all and that is what happened in the case of Abu bakr. i would not agree to you if you considered abu bakr as a faasiq.
Please see what you have written. I see that you have wandering ideas, not so mature.
but the history is full of people who abused the caliphate....e.g yazeed...
now if u accept that the muslims made abu bakr the caliph, muslims also accepted yazid as the caliph...and the whole umayyad dynasty was accepted by muslims as their leaders.. so...how can people who are faasiq lead the ummah(varios examplaes)???? remember that u have already said that "ALLAH WILL MAKE KHILAFAT" Muslims did not accept or make Yazid as Khalifah. You know it. Accepting is different. It may be imposed upon them as is clear from the murder of Imam Hussain a.s. Did any one elect Yazeed? No. He was nominated by his father.
Abu bakr or Umar were not nominated by the fathers. It is sure that The prophet did not nominate any one as Khalifah and that was the best. The Ummah was in good shape and with good strength mentally and spiritually. There was no problem and no need to nominate any one.
If the prophet had nominated any one, it would mean that he had no reliance on the Ummah after his death. He had no son. So the question of nominating the son was not there. I hope you will understand that there was absolutely no need for any nomination. In fact nomination would have been harmful, as I had already explained in the case of the nomination of Yazeed as Khalifah. That was not Khilafat at all.
If the election of Hazrat Ali as a Khalifah was alright then the election of Hazrat Abu bakr and Umar was also alright. Am I right. Will you please see that it is Allah who makes a khalifah. He guides the believers to the right person. We cannot say that Allah made a mistake in the case of Hazrat Abu bakr, or Hazrat Abu bakr was more powerful than Allah and Abu bakr thwarted the plan of Allah. That is not possible.
If there is any nomination system or special treatment for any class of people then it would become worse that Hindus Pundit system. The spiritual power will circulate amongst a certain family. That could never be right.
I ask you, do you support the Hindus caste system? Please accept my apology if I have said anything harmful. I admit the high qualities of Hazrat Ali r.a. and those appeared at their right time. He was a staunch supporter of the Khilafat e Rashidah. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 10:56am
|
br. Minuteman..
u forgot that umar had NOMINATED few ppl who decided AMONG THEMSELVES THE ISSUE OF KHILAFAT...there was no consensus of the ummah used at that time....(infact saqifa happened among few ppl..and not the ummah...but still if u say that it happened between the ummah, then its ure belief...)so WHERE IS CONSENSUS IN NOMINATING UTHMAN BIN AFAN??? now...who told umar to do that...infact did he think that the ummah is a faasiq that they wud not elect the right person???? similarly mu'awiyah nominated yazid....ppl accepted it...they did not revolt against him..some did....AND THEY WERE THE THE FOLLOWERS OF AHLEL BAYT(a.s) .....but the majority had accepted yazid as caliph....and did not participate in the revolt....(by revolt i mean the role of Mukhtar (r.a) to avenge the killer of Imam Hussain (a.s)...as Imam Hussain (a.s) fought in defence....) and so this issue of khilafat was taken over by banu abbas....now y dont u say that banu abbas was made caliph by Allah (s.w.t) SINCE THE MAJORITY ACCEPTED THEM AS CALIPH.....so...CONSENSUS COMES BACK AGAIN HERE.... Y R U PARTIAL IN URE VIEWS??? so according to u, DID ALLAH (S.w.t) FORGET HIS PROMISE THEN??? i repeat...the khalifa is explicitly appointed by ALLAH (s.w.t)...and this system is not similar to any system which exists 2day......the appointment of people is harmful...as no human is perfect..how can appointment by ALLAH (s.w.t) BE HARMFULL to ummah????? note:the capital letters above does not mean i am shouting...i am just highlighting some points....i apologise if u thot i was being rude... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 12:10am
|
Brother Asada . i knew you would come back with that but if you had read my previous post with little care , you probably answer my actual question instead of showing how knowledgeable you are .But with this information you are indicating that Sahaba were ignorant (at least on the matter of Ali) because they didn't read tafsir of asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi . But how many of them can read ? Interestingly many of the companions of our beloved prophet can/t read .You may consider them ignorant just because they did not read books you did ...Fanny thing is that many of them memoried whole Quran by heart ,they knew which ayat related to which event better than any person who lived after them as they are received knowledge face to face from our beloved prophet .Most importantly they lived with Quran died with Quran .Trusting first hand information is common logic to every body on the earth muslim non Muslim alike. Now some body named asda come up with claim that He is more alim(scholar) than Sahaba . Don't you think this claim is funny ?!? |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:49pm
|
br Uighur
i am not here to test my knowledge... the people u r relying ure debate on were not the People left by the Prophet (s.a.w) for guidence... i have repeatedly written the hadith where the Prophet (s.a.w) has said that he has left the QURAN AND HIS AHLEL BAYT (a.s) FOR THE UMMAH FOR GUIDENCE....the people who were with the Prophet (s.a.w) are not the people chosen for guidence for varios reasons.... the same group of people u r relying in ure post have disobeyed the Prophet (s.a.w) many times...they have contradicted him and tried to over smart him.... so for those who have disobeyed the Prophet (s.a.w) cannot be guide for the ummah.. the guide has to be perfect, and chosen by Allah (s.w.t)...as He (s.w.t) has done for nations before Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)... infact in those days people did surpress the Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and denied the fadhail of Imam Ali (a.s) reaching to people...not only that, they even were termed liars on their claims....while they should have been the source of guidence, people rejected their guidence... so how can one think these people will do justice with the Ahlel Bayt (a.s)???? |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 23 October 2008 at 9:35am
How do you understand testing knowledge? It is funny you have been doing it while you keep denying. Look yourself more closely . You showed this book that book trying to prove that companions were wrong in the electing Abu Bakir as leader !? Do you know how many companions were there on the earth when our prophet passed away ?How long these companions had been lived under leadership of Aba Bakir ,Omer ,Osman ?. Their administration had sustained by moral & physical support of companions. This is historical fact that no one can dispute .,, but you are trying to test your poor knowledge...with that .. more you try more you fool yourself with charging companions with crime & wrong doings untill end up with horrible clash with authoritic hedeth of our beloved prophet like that
Brother asda ,we have prophet who tolled us about them, Basic on this most reliable reference we made our view on the Sahaba ,Are you saying my judgment more reliable than Prophet . First you try to show you more Alim(Schalor) than Sahaba Krim now are you trying to make yourself more important than Prophet? Please do not be such arrogant man .
I am sunni Muslim hanifi in fiq but not shia but you can't image how much i do love Ahlel Bayt,Ali is part of my heart. Prophet's daughter lady Fatima is one more important than my own son & daughter .You don't need to teach us about Ahlel Bayt . In my duwa I always mention Ahlel Bayt.
Should I mention you how our beloved prophet said about his sunne ?What is your reaction could be ?Don't you know Muslim can find enough lines in Quran regarding sunne ? Brother before trying to exchange these lines with sunni Muslim ,please clean your heart . The way you think is very much dirty ,it hurts Muslims .  If any one insult Lady Fatime my heart would be filled with anger . When I thought of Ali my eyes would be filled with tear . If you are Muslim for years love to Ahlel Bayt naturaly have been rooted in your soul . Same way these people around our prophet are our most valuable asset of Muslims ,for every knowledge we have today reached us because of the teaching of sahaba .Who did wrong who did't among sahaba is subject we have no authority to talk about ,it is like layman discussing prefessional mistake of masters . Instead of looking fault of compions just study the way our beloved prophet treaded sahaba , Have you ever heart prophet charged Abu bakir with wrongdoing ?Did you read a line in which prophet have said accuse my sahaba according Quran ? Just contrary he said we should respect them , avoid our tonguse from them . |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:02am
|
1st of all, lets not abuse each other...by saying that wach other is ignorant....lets think with an open mind bro..
u have carefully tried to praise the Ahlel Bayt (a.s), keeping in mind that u dont indulge in facts which actually goes against the the people who were with the Prophet (a.s)... how can u be a SINCERE lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u love someone who had denied the Prophet (a.s) to write his will WHICH WOULD HAVE HELPED THEM NOT TO GO ASTRAY??? how can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u also love someone who had "angered" by H.Fatima (a.s)... "Whoever angers Fatima (s.a), has angered me" -Prophet Muhammad (a.s)... how can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt when u support people who went against the sunnah of Prophet (a.s) after his death...hint:bringing bak marwaan bin hakam's family... how can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u say that Mu'awiyah was right wen he faught BATTLE OF siffeen and BATTLE OF Nahrwaan.... battles are not some small events bro...people get killed...haq or baatil.. How can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u also support the people who faught the battle of Jamal against Imam Ali (a.s).... dont u see...whenever there is a conflict between Ahlel Bayt vs others..u support he "others".....did u forget that Prophet (a.s) has said "Ali (a.s) is with HAQ"....dont u think the rest are baatil???.... how can u be a lover of HAQ AND BAATIL AT THE SAME TIME????cuz those who fight haq, are baatil...isnt it??? or is there a fact u dont want to accept??? u say:If any one insult Lady Fatime my heart would be filled with anger ..... i ask: where is this anger when u come to know that she was shown as a lier on her claim of fidak?? wasnt dat an insult?? plese dont be partial... the point i want to make is that the sahaaba were not sincere...no one can measure knowledge....but sincerity can be seen in ones actions... y dont u cry for them when u lissen to da above zulm done on them???is this unconditional love???actually muslims should be HURT wen they see the way Ahlel Bayt (a.s) was treated..... y do u think mu'awiyah, the person u all praise a lot, dint fight Uthman bin affan??? why was he partial??? was it dat he saw Ahlel Bayt (a.s) comming to power at the time of Imam Ali (a.s)?? if are a true lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), then it is MUST ON U TO SUPPORT THEIR STANCE IN THE ABOVE MENTIONED CONFLICTS....OTHERWISE...i am really sorry to say....U HAVE FAKE CLAIMS..... think with an open mind bro.... |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:20am
|
i just want to add:
is knowledge the criteria for choosing haq or baatil??? surly not... if u dont know, in many universities in the west, the people who teach islam are non-muslims.... but the fact is that they usually know more about islam then a common muslim does.... so having knowledge is no criteria for a person to be on haq... knowledge is the source...not a destination!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 5:15am
|
member_profile.asp?PF=60379&FID=32 - Brother asda It seams you are good at history so you must knew there were disagreements among most well known companions , some disagreement occurred between two individuals while some happen among groups . Of cause there were high possibility of other serious sort of conflict between companions were not written down at all .Like you I have read these events but i never try to judge whose opinion is right whose wrong for I knew I am nothing in front of sahaba . Not only many many things unknown to us regarding the problems between them but also it is impossible for us to know Prophet more than companions who saw him & lived with him ,i means we are not entitled to talk about whose right or wrong since sahaba is better informed than us about Islam But .... you Asda seams know many many things with certainty Before questioning my love to Ahlel Bayt (a.s) please question your claim on companions .If you are not clear on my message ,answer this : Are you in capability to judge on every disagreement occurred between companions with certainty? if you answer is ok,then I will test your knowledge one by one ,you would no longer need to show your knowledge . I am going to see if you can be better than sahaba |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:07pm
|
Br.mm
da aayah u hav quoted on consensus is not related 2 khilafat.cuz we cant see consensus wen abu bakr chose(imposed?) umar his succesor. So y is umar khalifa of allah(ma'zalah) and yazid is not? Without being partial decide:if one is haq da other has to be as well.otherwise both r not haq.as both r not chosen as per way given in quran!!(consensus as u say).. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:22pm
|
Br uigher
i hav already proved 2 u dat knoledge is not da criteria of haq. Wen i read hadith dat "ali(a.s) is wid haq" and that "i hav left u da quran nd ahlel bayt" i dont need 2 think more to judge da ppl who went against da ahlel bayt(a.s).strait away i can say ahlel bayt was haq nd da opposition is not. Y is it not ez to see black nd white clearly?wen da msg of da prophet (a.s) was clear. |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 8:57pm
|
Brother Asda No more more game of words. simply answer this Are you in capability to judge on every disagreement occurred between companions with certainty? As I said previously according record we do have today there were disagreements among most well known companions , some disagreement occurred between two individuals while some happen among groups. For example Aba Baski once in bitter disagreement with his own daughter Ashia ,Ansar had once come close to shed blood with Muhajir ...Please answer above ,I want you talk about these disaggment occurred between companions ,I want see whose were right among them according you .a person who claim his in capability to judge on every disagreement occurred between companions with certainty |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 25 October 2008 at 12:10pm
i have simply answered ure above queries... i dont think i can give a more satisfactory answer in proving my position....
i dont really care much of the conflicts which did not involve the ahlel bayt (a.s).... as i can only clarify haq and batil when it comes to conflicts where ahlel bayt (a.s) is involved..... i havent studied much on other disagreements because it was irrelevent to the history of islam.... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 25 October 2008 at 11:53pm
|
Brother asda Is that means you are in capability to judge on disagreement when it concerned with ahlel bayt (a.s). ? The capability to judge on the conflict between sahaba require intensive interest on the the identity of the certain group according you ...It is every basic I want you go ahead what else we need ? You know ... Muhajir and Ansar had conflict as two group,if you knew Islamic history there were little doubt on this event so if I want(desire ) to have a capability to judge on disagreement intensive interest is not going to be enough ... go ahead please |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 6:30am
|
my judgment is not on my personal likes or dislikes...rather its based on the words of the Prophet (a.s) who cant err....
dere were some conflicts between the sahaaba and the people who were around the Prophet (a.s) which were indirectly linked to the ahlel bayt (a.s)...i am currently studying those...such as the case of H. Abu zarr (r.a) and H.Ammar Yassir (r.a).....and the way they both got killed... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 8:08am
|
Brother Asda Hope you understand me , in your previous post you claimed you are in capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba as long as it concern with ahlel bayt (a.s) because of your intensive interest on ahlel bayt (a.s) .Being free from personal likes or dislikes is important I aggree however since what i want to discuss with you is capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba ,a kind of skill(ability or high degree of Iman, arrogance ? ) no sunni scholar dare to claim on himself,what I interest in is what quality , knowledge or sort of training one must go throgh when he desire to have the capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba I am keep asking you this but your answer always not clear , Please feel free to share you knowledge with a brother I am not salifi or wahabi ,I have no favor on Ibn Tayimme ok  |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 9:16am
|
alhamd i knew u r not a follower of ibn tayimiyah nor a wahaabi....i have delt with people with those views, so i kinda get a hint....
one has to be just impartial wen it comes to conflicts...and has to keep the likings of Allah (s.w.t) and his Prophet (a.s) before anything else... it is clear between u and me that the Prophet (a.s) had dilivered his message crystal clear and complete to the ummah....which has been accepted by all, past or present (dat da msg was complete and clear)....so if this is true, and all the people around the Prophet (a.s) were on haq, then there shud NEVER BE ANY CONFLICT AMONG THEM... since conflicts did arise, i dont see y it is hard to judge between conflicts....cuz there cant be doubts/conflicts raised among da people if dey r on haq and have understood the clear and complete message of the Prophet (a.s)...specially as soon as the Prophet (a.s) left.... now we r left with 2 possiblities in these conflicts: 1: either one has to accept that the Prophet (a.s) did not give his message clearly, or dint explain everything to the ummah (maazallah) which caused the people around him to dispute and fight wars among themselves... 2:If the Prophet (a.s) had given his message clearly then it is true that both sides of the party knew the Position of Haq, whatever it was..... therefore one is forces to accept dat atleast ONE party in the conflict was denying the truth to create mischieve among the ummah... i dont see any 3rd possiblity here..... i hope i have not confused u, and have given my message clearly....if there are any doubts den do let me know.... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 3:19am
|
Brother asda since we are both Muslim(if you do not believe hanifi Muslim are kuffur) I am try to avoid you Vs me mode, ,please give me your attention (1)you claim you are in capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba when it concerned with ahlel bayt (a.s). (2)It shocked me ,i know from history books that there were some conflict or disagreement occurred between companions, some of these event happen among certain groups ,some between individuals however sunni scholars did not claim to have abality to judge on disagreement between sahaba (3)Then I aked you with great interest , what quality , knowledge or sort of training one must go throgh when he desire to have the capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba If you are interest in haq and batal before your intensive interest on ahlel bayt (a.s) ,we can have a topic where we can use term <us >, right ?so would you please offer your answer to this ?What make up a judge who in capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba . islam is religion of mankind ,most perfect system ever on the earth but if you want to be judge on US supreme court ,you won't be as soon as you wish to be because of your intensive interest on certain criminal case right ? You need go through certain formulation ... same way what quality , knowledge or sort of training for person wish to be judge who in capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba?  |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 29 October 2008 at 7:07am
|
Salaams
i dont belive any sunni to be kaafir....they are surly muslims... because one who belives in Allah (s.w.t) and his Prophet (s.a.w) can never be a kaafir..... doubts can be raised for those who skips either one of the 2... the shia scholars have seen black and white clearly in matters of conflicts and disagreements.... u have asked:
well ure question is not inline with my claims... i have not said dat i can judge disagreements among da sahaaba... i have repeatedly said dat one can judge disagreements which were linked to Ahlel Bayt (a.s)only...and not sahaaba in general... how to come up with a conclusion on the the matters of coflicts concerning the Ahlel Bayt? Allah (s.w.t) has made it easy for one to judge between haq and baatil..... to judge between right and wrong... remember: haq cannot mix with baatil.....therefore it is important to differ.. in judging between da conflicts of Haq and Baatil one does not need to apply rocket science... similarly judging the haq in conflicts related to ahlel bayt (a.s) is not a very hard process...one has to study da quran and the hadith of the Prophet (s.a.w)... but from wat i see (correct me if i am wrong): the sunni ulama are not willing to find haq and baatil in these conflicts....for reasons i dont know...it is very important to recognise the right people from whom one can take his religion....because i have already posed a serios question in my previos post, and have given u 2 possible situations wen judging between the people....if a 3rd situation exists then u can explain dat to me... therefore the only qualification lack i see is dat the sunni ulama are not keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among the muslims....i repeat: haq cannot mix with baatil.....therefore it is important to differ.. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 6:59am
Isnt there the possibility that some sahabas made the wrong ijtihad not out of mischief but due to circumstances and that the munafiqs who wanted to destabilize the ummah worked all the mischief that caused the chaos and chasms in the society?
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 9:00am
Brother asda You claim you can judge whose right and whose wrong when disagreement something to do with Ahlel Bayt (a.s) however it means one can be good Muslim if he/she study Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba vision of history with intensive interest take a side of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) after enlightment Is my understanding correct ? However it is interesting to note that how a person who admit can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba . Did you read my mind ? Bunch of Judges on the court who say they can make judgment on certain case but unable to judge on other case should go fishing,am I right ?If you still don't clear ,I am saying that judge must be person who familiar with constitution . Instead of be expert on certain case they are people who live within spirituality of constitution. For this reason people come to them & ask what is right what is wrong from them . From your previous statement I am under the impression that you are most important man in Islamic history becase you claim a ability to judge on sahaba but after asking couple questions I am disappointing day by day,it is pity that I have already prepared a file in which disagreements among da sahaaba mentioned in detail.
Brother asda ,Sunni ulama do keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among the muslims..not only that Sunni ulama do keen deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place in world ..but they are not keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among sahaba . Because there were so many beautiful cooperation mutual respect ,care & love  between Sahaba that battles/conflicts sadly took place among them only occupy little part of their story, Sunni ulama have been focusing this big beautiful picture instead of studying small agurment they have been studying wisdom/ spirituality they learned from our loved prophet .See one are trying to be judge on sahaba,other studying wisdom/ spirituality that sahaba learned from our loved prophet which is better ? |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 12:56pm
that goes inline with the 1st option i have given...
yes...
y wud anybody research on conflicts which does not affect the religion at all.. i mean, do u think u want me to solve their household fights as well...come on....i think u missed out wat i am trying to say.... the conflicts with ahlel bayt (a.s) had supreme importace.... because on one side, we have people who were rated as quite high among the people, and on the other side it there wer da people who were rated very highly among people....if both sides had the best knowledge provided to them by the Prophet (a.s), then one side has to be called mischevios in their behaviour to create conflicts...
if u think Allah (s.w.t) has not shown haq properly to common laymen, then arent u questioning the justice of Allah (s.w.t)??? u dont need rocket science to tell u dat those who disobey the orders of the Prophet (a.s), are not gud muslims...do u???
is der a difference between a muslim and the people who were with the Prophet (a.s)??? dint they have desires like us...werent they tested..... so y is it dat they have double standards on this...how can one say they passed their test to their best wen they were not patient.....arent the sahaba considered to be muslims....y is der a big issue to say dat the sahaaba had done zulm...while the Prophet (a.s) can do zulm (maazlallah)???
i dont see love at all...even among the so-called ashra mubashara...forget the common people..... surely islam has many fields to research on....but these are one of the most important subjects.... y is it that uptill now they havent tried to know who was haq in the wars that were fought...in a war, there is one one situation, one is haq and the other is baatil...one done have any other options...ya in small casual fights u can say the case is so so, but wen it comes to people who had directly taken knowledge from Rasoolullah (a.s), i dont think we should close our eyes... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 01 November 2008 at 11:39am
|
#However it is interesting to note that how a person who admit can't
judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on
disagreements Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba . Did you read my mind ?# #wud anybody research on conflicts which does not affect the religion at all.. i mean, do u think u want me to solve their household fights as well...come on....i think u missed out wat i am trying to say.... the conflicts with ahlel bayt (a.s) had supreme importace...# Brother Asda ,we on the topic of ability to judge on disagreements among da sahaaba , If a judge only care what he think as important he must leave from his office. as previously mentioned judges are people who live within spirituality of constitution . So I am asking you how a person who admit can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba ? I hope you understand what you are talking about ,from you answer it sound like Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba vision of history is far more important than constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth. .A sunni Muslim i believe Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba nothing but a part of some conflicts occurred between sahaba so i am treating it as case before the constitution but obviously you are trying to put it upsite down . Entire human civilization can be understood by constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth but would you try to explain with Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba history ?. I hope you not so much fool . Before turn your face to any other direction ,please give your attention to following two points : (1)claim you can judge on disagreements among da sahaaba accept my file in which disagreements among da sahaaba mentioned in detail. in your previous post you claim you can judge on disagreements among da sahaaba as long as it concerns with Ahlel Bayt (a.s) That means that you are expert on Quran and Hedsth. you are living within spirituality of constitution othwise you won't be able judge disagreements between Ahlel Bayt (a.s) & Sahaba as long as it remain as one of the disagreements among da sahaaba (2)admit you only interest in Ahlel Bayt (a.s) vs Sahaba vision of history.this history is far more important than constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 02 November 2008 at 10:37am
|
Salaams..
i have made myslef clear...but...u have repeated ure queries again and again, and have repeated the same quesries with a bit of different words.....come to da point....
this is because the conflicts of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) were related to Islam....as they were not followed after the Prophet's (s.a.w) death as he had commanded the others to....i have studied other conflicts as well....but all of them are relevent to the history of islam...and they are not household matters...
i repeat..Allah (s.w.t) has not kept the Process of finding haq and baatil very hard and something one cannot understand...its just dat one needs to have the will to find the truth...and accept the result..
these conflicts are part of interpretation of quran and also involves a study into constitutions of quran and explaination of hadeeth....so..in all...all of these are important....in other ways...ure above query is something like: "is it important to study the quran or the words of the Prophet???" the above question is st**id...as both are inter-related....one cannot do one and neglect the other.....
i can judge between the conflicts related to Ahlel Bayt (a.s)... wat file are u talking about...i dint get any file with list of disagreements...
this is a very odd claim i never made...and u want me to claim it to be my words....the history of conflicts of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is very important...but oviosly, there are other parts of history important as well....specially those discussed in quran.....and all those Prophets (a.s) we know since the time of H.Adam till Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)...... howerver u have got wat i am trying to say...i think u r just trying to buy time by reasking me all dat.... btw just to let u knw....i have a life as well...and have loads of other work to do....my responsibilities and taking care of a lot of stuff...to add to dat i never wish to stop in learning about islam...therefore i have loads of books to read wich are pending.....so please be on point...and dont re-ask stuff.... while doing research on the conflicts i am sure it must have surprised u how much the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) was neglected...and the way they were kept away from spreading the religion....infact wen Imam Ali (a.s) got the khilafat, he was kept busy in wars so dat people stay away from the truth...banu umayyah would have been really hurt wen dey came to know dat Imam Ali (a.s) is on da ruling seat...i am still w8ing to knw da info u have collected...lets see.. |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 02 November 2008 at 8:33pm
|
#however u have got wat i am trying to say...# Brother Asda ,sadly you are not got wat i am trying to say ... because you are trying too hard to express yourself. Why not got little time to think over what i am trying to say? In different ways I am trying to make my concern clear but you are answering me with something else ... just walking around topic but never come it... Ok ,let us discuss it again but differently ......... From this post it seams you are saying history of conflicts of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is part of Islamic constitution right ? So It would be wrong of me if i treat it as case ...right ? . So history of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is not case that one must be bring to court but extremely important part of Islamic constitution .In this pretext it is nonsense to treat AHLEL BAYT (a.s) as suject to constitution .. If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring , lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?If Abdurahman had a argument with Caliphate Osman ,ti would be most wise idea for Abdurahman to invite lady Fatima to be judge since lady Fatima's word won't be wrong ? What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ? |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 03 November 2008 at 4:50am
How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions. . .You can also say that the only 'importance' they hold is historical i.e. such and such thing happened. Full stop. What I dont understand is, why are they portrayed as the be all and end all of Islam by the Shiite community? i.e. why the need to create a Firqa over a polictical conflict??? These issues have nothing to do with Islam per se. . . and what I mean by that is - they do not effect the amaal or intentions etc of Muslim Ummah after that. So why drag the issue along for centuries?
How are these conflicts part of the interpretation of the Quran? and hadeeth? I think brother/sister Uighur has a valid point, i.e. what relevance does the issue have with practise of Islam today, and us bieng good muslims? We should treat is as a piece of history - and try to learn from it - learn what? To be unified, and not create fitna and rifts etc. And to focus on the larger picture i.e. qiyamat, amaal, good of muslim ummah etc. Not focus on trivial/petty issues.
How so? What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday? (All the sahaba involved in that issue were esteemed ones... You were not even present at the time, u heard handed down accounts/versions of the conflict, how does that that make you - or me - for that matter, eligible to pass judgements on who was right and who was wrong? I think that is grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan - and leads us astray i.e. we start worrying about irrelevant issues, and forget the bigger picture. This is what the Bani Israel used to do. . . focus on the little, irrelevant things - rather than Allah's compulsory commands. Thats what Surah Baqarah is all about.
We should leave everything to Allah - to decide... and judge. No need to take Allah's job on us, and start passing judgements on who was right and wrong. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 03 November 2008 at 2:11pm
Bro Uighur I am sorry to see you are not getting anywhere with the shill! As you can see the areas of irreconcilability are so many that you might as well give up your creed to be friends with this lot! There is unanimous agreement To some of them, the Qur'an'samong them regarding its authenticity is doubtful, and if itauthenticity, and its text being appears to contradict any of theirsafeguarded from any additions sectarian beliefs or doctrines, thenor deletions. The Qur'an is to be they give the Qur'anic textunderstood in consonance with strange, far-fetched interpretationsthe rules and bases of the Arabic that agree with their sectarianlanguage. They believe in every views. They love to draw attentionsingle letter of it, it being the to the discord that occurred at the word of Allah the Exalted. The time when the Qur'an was firstQur'an is neither temporal nor compiled. The views and opinions newly created, but is eternal. that they falsely attribute to the Falsehood does not approach it Imams of Ahlu-l-Bayt are the primaryfrom before it or behind it. It source of their jurisprudence.is the primary source of all the Muslims' tenets of faith, their rites and rules of conduct. AHAADEETH (THE PROPHETIC TRADITIONS) Sunnis Shi'ite For the Sunnis, it is the second The Shi'ites reject all Propheticsource of revealed law, com- Traditions which were not relatedplementary to the Noble Quran by members of Ahlu-l-Bayt, or theirIt is not permissible to contradict descendants. The only exceptionor reject the rulings and direc- to this rule is their acceptance of tives contained in those a few ahaadeeth narrated by thoseahaadeeth which are reliably at- who sided with 'Ali (may Allah betributed to the Prophet (may pleased with him) in his politicalAllah's blessings and peace be wars. They do not attend to theupon him). The methodology ap- authenticity and soundness of theplied in determining the authen- chain of narrators, nor do they ap-ticity of these traditions utilizes a approach the study of the Propheticset of stringent rules agreed upon Traditions with a scientific by the scholars who specialize in attitude. Their narrations often ap-this field, and involves a detailed pear in a form like that of theanalysis of the chain of transmit- following example: "It has beenters of any given tradition. No reported regarding Muhammaddistinction is made between bin Isma'eel by way of some ofmale and female narrators; judg- our friends through a man whoment is made solely on the basis transmitted it from him ['Ali] thatof individual trustworthiness and he said...". Their books are filledtechnical ability in relating tradi- with hundreds of thousands oftions, and every narrator's traditions whose authenticity can-history is recorded. No tradition not be confirmed. They have builtis accepted from a known liar, or their religion specifically uponfrom one whose morals or these spurious texts while outrightscholarly ability were not cor- rejecting over three quarters of theroborated, or from anyone, authentic Prophetic Traditions.merely on the basis of his family This is one of the main differencesconnection or lineage. The com- between the Shi'ites and the Sun-pilation of the Prophetic Tradi- nis.tions is taken to be a sacred Trust,the fulfillment of which overrides all other considerations. THE COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET Sunnis Shi'ites It is unanimously agreed that the They charge that all save a few ofnoble Companions deserve our the Companions had turnedutmost respect, and are absolute- apostate after the death of thely trustworthy. As for the discord Prophet (may the peace andwhich occurred among them, it blessings of Allah be upon him).is to be considered as the conse- On the other hand, they grantquence of the sincere exercise of the Companion 'Ali bin Abipersonal conviction and opinion. Taalib a very special status; someThe discord was resolved and is a of them consider him vicegerent,thing of the past. It is not per- and some view him as a prophet,missible for us to hold, on the while others take him for a god!basis of past differences among Shi'ites pass judgment onthe Companions, grudges and ill- Muslims in accordance with theirwill which continue for genera- position with regards to 'Ali.tions. The Companions are those Whoever was elected caliphwhom Allah has described in the before 'Ali is held by them to bebest of terms; He has praised a tyrant, an apostate or a sinner.them upon many occasions. It is The same judgment is passed onnot lawful for anyone to make every Muslim ruler who did notany accusation against them or step down for any of the descen-cast suspicion upon them, and dants of 'Ali and his wife Fatimahthere is no benefit to be derived (may Allah be pleased withtherefrom. them). The Shi'ites have thus created an atmosphere of animosity throughout the history of Islam, and the question of par- tisanship of Ahlu-l-Bayt developed into a school of thought which preached and perpetuated such detrimental teachings down through the generations. BELIEF IN THE ONENESS OF ALLAH Sunnis Shi'ites Sunnis believe that Allah is The Shi'ites also believe in AllahOne and the Only God, the the Exalted and His Oneness, ex-Almighty Subduer. He has no cept that they adulterate this partners or rivals, and He has no belief with Mu'tazilism and otherequal. They believe in His at- and strange observances. tributes as they were revealed in They consider their Imams to bethe Qur'anic verses, and they do infallible, to have knowledge ofnot obscure their obvious mean- the unseen, and to partake in theins with far-fetched interpreta- administration of the universe. tions. They do not strike any Shi'ite scholars and clergy im-comparison between the divine pressed upon their followers theattributes and other things, for concept of a hereditary privileg-as Allah says in His Book "There ed class as a matter of religion, is nothing like unto Him." although this has no foundationThey believe that Allah sent the in Islam at all.Prophets and commissioned Knowledge of Allah, is attained,them with conveying to mankind according to them, through theHis Message and Guidance. exercise of reason, not by They conveyed Allah's Message knowledge of divinely revealedso that since people could accept law. That which came to us byit.They believe that knowledge way of revelation in the Qur'anof the unseen belongs to Allah, merely represents an affirmationand His servant can only of reason's judgment; it is notunderstand, about Him, what He considered to be a source whichchooses to reveal to them. is independent of, and beyond the limits of reason. SEEING ALLAH Sunnis Shi'ites Sunnis believe that believers The Shi'ites believe that to seewill be blessed with the sight Allah is not possible in this worldof Allah in the Hereafter, as is nor in the Hereafter.mentioned in the Qur'an: ''On that Day faces of the believers] will be resplendent, looking towards their Lord." THE UNSEEN Sunni Shi'ites Allah the Exalted has reserved They claim that knowledge of theknowledge of the unseen for unseen belongs solely to theirHimself; however, He has Imams, and it is not for the Pro-revealed to His Prophets and phet to inform us about the un-Saints some of the affairs and seen. Some Shi'ites have gone soconditions of the unseen, for far as to claim godhead(l for thoseparticular reasons. The Qur'an Imams.says: "And they do not encompass anything of Allah's knowledge, except what He reveals thereof" AALUR-RASOOL (THE FAMILY OF THE MESSENGER) (May Allah be pleased with them all) Sunnis Shi'ites Aalur-Rasool, according to the According to the Shi'ites theSunnis, refers to all the believing term Aalur-Rasool refers only todescendants and relatives of the 'Ali bin Abi Taalib, and to some Prophet Muhammad, from the tribes of his descendants.of Haashim and 'Abdul-Muttalib. The pious and God-fearing peopleof the Prophet's Community, andparticularly the converts to Islam,are also called Aalur-Rasool in aspecial sense. THE MEANING OF SHARI'AH AND HAQEEQAH Sunnis Shi'ites In the Sunnis' view, the shariah The Shi'ites see the shari'ah as(the divinely revealed law) is being merely the various rulingsitself a relevant aspect of the and directives set forth by thehaqeeqah (the essential knowledge, Prophet; they concern the com-the reality). They hold that the mon and superficial folk only. AsMessenger of Allah did not con- for the haqeeqah, no one knowsceal from his community of believ- it except the Imams of Ahlu-l-Bayters any part of knowledge that con- These Imams acquired thecerns the revealed law. There sciences of haqeeqah through in-was no good thing that he did heritance, one generation afternot guide us to, and no evil thing another. It remains a secretthat he did not warn us about. possession among them. Further-Allah has said 'On this day I have more, the Shi'ites consider theircompleted your religion. Imams infallible; every work andTherefore, the sources of the practice of theirs is deemed in-Islamic faith are Allah's Book and cumbent upon their followers.the Sunnah (practice) of the Pro- They believe that one may com-phet; bad innovations are blamed municate with God only throughand rejected. The relationship intermediaries, and it is for thisof the believer with Allah, and reason that their religious leadersthe path to the achievement of have such an inflated opinion ofgood works and worship, are themselves, as evidenced by theclear and evident. exaggerated titles they take for themselves, e.g. Baabullah (the door to Allah), Hujjatullah (Allah's proof), Ayatullah (the sign of Allah), Al-Ma'soorn (theinfallible one), etc. ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE Sunnis Shi'ites Ahlus-s-Sunnah adhere strictly to They depend only on the ex-the legal rulings and directives of clusive sources which they claimthe Noble Qur'an, as clarified by for their Imams, upon their far-the sayings and practices of the fetched interpretations of theMessenger of Allah. We also depend Quran and upon their contraryupon the sayings of the Com- attitude which puts them at oddspanions and the generation of with the majority of the Muslimtrustworthy scholars who follow- peoples. The Shi'ites considered them. They were the nearest ones their Imams to be infallible, andto the Prophet's era and the most to have the right to create newsincere in supporting his mission, rulings and directives .in con-throughout the tests and trials tradiction to the revealed law.which had to be endured in the For example, they have altered:course of establishing Islam. (a) The call to prayer and theSince this religion has been com- prescribed times and postures ofpleted, no one has the right to prayers.forge new legislation or (b) The rites of Hajj (pilgrimage)directives; however, in order to and visitation to the sacredproperly understand the details places.of the revealed law, and to apply (c) The specified times for begin-it according to new situations ning and breaking the fast.and circumstances while keep- (d) The rulings with regards toing in mind the general welfare zakaah (alms-tax) and its distribu-of the people, one must refer to tion.the qualified Muslim scholars (e) The inheritance laws.who must work solely within the The Shi'ites are very particular tobounds established by Allah's take positions in opposition toBook and the Sunnah of the Pro- Ahlus-Sunnah, thus widening thephet (may Allah's blessings and gap between us and them.peace be upon him). The Shi'ites follow the so-calledSunnis accept as authoritative Ja'fari school of law, and attributeonly those schools of law that are its origin to Ja'far ibn Muhammad transmitted on the authority of as-Sadiq. These claims are comple-the Prophet through the first tely false, since Ja'far as-Sadiqgenerations of Muslims. Of all was not a Shi'te, but a Sunni scholar these schools, only four survive and one of Abu Hanifah's teachers.until today, that is the Hanafi, He has no connection to the so-calledMaliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali Ja'fari school, that was forged more schools. Sunni scholars are una- than one hundred years after his nimous in saying that - among the death. contemporary Muslims - whoever does not follow one of them is nota member of Ahlu-s-Sunnah but afollower of innovation. They also strive their best in refutingheretic schools of law, like thepseudo-Ja'fari (Shi'ite) or thepseudo-Salafi (Wahhabi). Al-WALAA' (OBEDIENCE AND DEVOTION) Sunnis Shi'ites Al-walaa' means "total ad- They view al-walaa' as being oneherence, obedience and devo- of the pillars of iman. They definetion." The Sunnis believe that it as the firm belief in the Twelveit is due to the Messenger Imams. including the "hidden"of Allah, for Allah says in His Imam. They consider one whoBook "Whosoever obeys the does not have strict devotion toMessenger, he has verily obeyed their Imams as one who has noAllah." Other persons deserve faith. They will not pray behindour obedience only when they such a person, nor will they givestrictly abide by Islam. Our him zakaah although he be deserv-responsibilities to others are ing of it. Such a person would bedefined by known legal prin- treated as a kaafr by them.ciples, and there is no obediencedue to any human being if thatentails disobedience to theCreator. TAQIYYAH (CALCULATED DECEPTION) Sunnis Shi'ites It is defined as presenting an In spite of the differences amongouter appearance that belies the various Shi'ite sects, they allwhat one conceals inside, to pro- agree that taqiyyah is a prescrib-tect oneself from harm. It is con- ed duty and a pillar of their faith.sidered impermissible for a Their school of thought couldMuslim to deceive other not stand without it. They learnMuslims, because of the Pro- its principles and methods andphet's saying: Whoever deceives they practice it, especially if theyis not one of us." Resorting to are in dire circumstances. Theytaqiyyah is permitted only in some exaggeratedly praise and flatterspecial situations, like jihad those whom they consideragainst those disbelievers who disbelievers, whom they con-persecute Muslims. That is part of sider deserving of slaughter andthe etiquette of war. It is incum- destruction. The verdict of kufr isbent on the Muslim to be truthful passed on anyone who is not ofand courageous in upholding the their sectarian school, and fortruth, and to be neither osten- them "the end justifies thetatious, nor deceiving, nor means." Their ethics allow everytreacherous. He should give manner of lying, cunning andsincere counsel, enjoin what is deception. good and forbid what is evil. GOVERNING THE ISLAMIC STATE Sunnis Shi'ite The Khilafah is ruled by a caliph Generally speaking, the right toelected to his position of leader- govern, according to Shi'ites, isship from among the Muslim hereditary, and restricted to 'Ali, must be sane, honest and and his descendants by Fatimahknowledgeable. He should be There is, however, some slightknown for his piety and trustwor- difference among them on thethiness, and should also be point of the hereditary right as tocapable of bearing such a whom it belongs to. Due to thisresponsibility. The caliph is view of theirs, the Shi'ites arenominate to his position of never loyal to any ruler unless heleadership by those Muslims en- is one of the descendants of 'Alidowed with knowledge and ex- bin Abi Taalib. When the prac-perience. tice of hereditary leadershipIf he does not hold firm to his vested in the descendants of 'Aliduty, and deviates from the and Fatimah could no longer bedirectives of the Qur'an, Muslims maintained, because the line hadcan openly admonish him and invite come to an end, the Shi'ites in-him to repent and to change his vented the doctrine of Ar-Raj'ah,ways. Otherwise, he totally according to which the last Imamdeserves the obedience and was not dead, but "hidden". Hecooperation of every Muslim. is expected to arise and return atThe role of Khilafah is, to the the end of time, when he willSunnis, a great burden and slaughter all of his political op-responsibility, not a mere ponents, and those of hishonour or an opportunity for ex- ancestors, and will restore to theploitations. Shi'ites their rights-which were "plundered" by the other sects over the centuries.
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 03 November 2008 at 3:01pm
br.Uigher
well there is a difference between laws (constitution) and aqaaed (beliefs)....these conflicts can be solved using the constitution...history cant be just set of laws....i hope u got wat m trying to say... the point where we differ is where to derrive a belief from...the main source is surly the Prophet (s.a.w)...but one group altered the beliefs and the other kept it in its perfect state....a major difference in opinion wich caused wars is evident of this fact..
this has never happend...nor can it happen......the garuntee of their purty has been given in Quran....and purity is not just physical purity....
there were times wen maula Ali (a.s) had to intervene in the rulings of the caliphs to prevent zulm on the people... i mentioned da Ahlel Bayt (a.s) not only H.Fatima (s.a).... br Chrysalis
we cant call these conflicts just political conflicts...for many reasons....one of them is because the prophet (a.s) had left Quran and Ahlel Bayt (a.s) for his ummah....so even if somebody has fought with one of them, do u think he is at the right path....morover to add to that, these conflicts/wars are important to da history of Islam because one shud know where to take ones religion from.....(in da wars in those days)on one side we have people who have narrated many hadith of the Prophet (a.s)...and at the same time on the other side we have people who have also narrated thousands of Hadith of the Prophet (a.s)....so if they are fighting, one of the 2 groups are mischiveios (keeping in mind dat the Prophet (a.s) had given his message perfectly..... to add to da above reasons the Prophet (a.s) has said: In Majma' al-Zawa'id and exegesis of Suyuti it has been quoted from Abu Said Khudri with a variation in words that: For forty days the Holy Prophet approached the house of Fatimah Zahra every morning and used to say:'Peace be upon you O people of the House! The time for the prayers has come'. And thereafter he used to recite this verse: O people of the Prophet's House.... And then said: 'I am in a state of war with him who fights with you and am in a state of peace with him who is at peace with you'. references: * Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v5, p199 * Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, pp 121,168 so do u see the importance of these conflicts... there are many more reasons...but i have mentioned just a few of them...
ya...and to know dat one has to know who is a fitna monger and the ways that person tried to create fitnah among the people....
these are important gray areas wich needs to be sorted out....in order to sort it out one needs to research into it because its eemaan thats at stake...wat shud one follow is da biggest question.....and the answer is given by the Prophet (a.s) wen he says he has left Quran and Ahlel Bayt (a.s) for the ummah.....He (a.s) had said this so that people take them(a.s) as their guide....and not try to guide them by making wars against them....infact those who go against them are going against the Prophet (a.s) and his words(sunnah)...
we have to find the appropriate source of Information which will lead us to true guidance which will lead one to the Path of Allah (s.w.t), the SIRAAT E MUSTAQEEM.... Sign*Reader
the analysis given has been done by an anti-shia....this can be seen in the difference in use of language for explaining both groups.... since its been done by an anti-shia, no doubt 50% of it is something which is a lie...some(10-20% i think) are true...and there are many odd additions....and most of wat has been given above does not exist....i am not surprised to read dat....not at all...these false accustions are da only way someone like u can prove ure point.... wen i say dat i want to add dat i knw da variations in beliefs of shia people...they are not major ones...just some minor issues...thus the above c&p is nothing but mostly a piece of lie...every single sentence can make a topic....if u want, u can go one by one on another thread....if i knw about dat subject i will reply u.... Br. Uigher....m sure he dint like it wen u said:
and has done his best to make me hate sunnis...but alhamd...he has failed.... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 03 November 2008 at 9:04pm
|
Brother Asda Thank you for your fresh explanation on creed of shia Muslims . These would help people understand Shia more accurately . Prejudiced view on Shia everywhere in Sunni land ,many Sunni brothers intentionally or unintentionally defame Shia with malicious accusation. Charging people with malicious accusation is not thing a Muslim should do . We Muslim are people with justice ,no matter who the person we are talking about we should not attribute wrong charges to him ,right? Regarding br Chrysalis's word I aggree with him when he said: <What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday? > <How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions> Disagreement over who had the legitimate right to occupy the post were political issuer but it later developed into theological one . You may familiar with First Fitne ,here I would like to remind you Ibadhi , Ibadism is an outgrowth of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites - Kharijites . Ibadism do have their own creed like Shia but this sect result of political disagreement. Politics nothing but politics it can't be universal like religion . One of their main reason why Shia can't earn hearts of people is that Shia at its core political .They care too much on political issuer between Sahaba ,in br Chrysalis' word <grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan > .Political issuer between Sahaba were not theological issue as you trying picture here . If you talk with Salifi/wahabi Muslim I am sure you can make them look pity & st**id,because they are not acapable to understand diffirance between theological issue & political issure . If basic on this victory you are confidant on your shia believe ,i am affraid you are just fooling youself . On internet always such uneducated young Muslims end up accusing you with dirty languase brother Asda are you getting me ? Since your agurment is political if you try to judge ,instead of looking theological books , you must search reality and facts and actual conditions ,so your attempt to pass judgement on them with theological books are not acceptable. If you talk follower of Ibadism ,he will play same like you . If you really want to know why Shia can't win hearts of Muslim ,just go Islamic forum where a lots Omani are members , you would learn how pity it would be if one try to picture a political event as basic of thelogical argurment .It is like having childish idea : building a large mansion with handful rocks .Did you read my mind ? Religion is much more bigger that a political event in history. Brother Asda , you also skipped my point once again ,I hope you answer following (1) If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?I mean what is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ? (2)#What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ?# #this has never happen...nor can it happen......the garuntee of their purty has been given in Quran....and purity is not just physical purity..# So it is impossible for two to have different opinions,so they think same every minute ?who are they ? As I mentioned earlier My Imam uncle love Ahlul Bayat ,from him I learned that we Muslim should love them , every time I mention Shia he never use word Kafir , but from his eyes I can feel his pain . It is like pain when you see your own bothers doing bad. you love you brother deep inside your heart for sake of brotherhood but it is so hard to hug him for wrongs he have been doing................... |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 06 November 2008 at 1:18pm
|
Salaam'alaikum
hope u r doing gud... imagine this situation: the people who took power after Prophet (a.s), were da same people who took the rights of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and behaved unjustly towards them...so much so that they even did zulm to them... what is ure 1st reaction to the above claim????
all three.....these issues can be solved taken any one of the three points into consideration...but for debates, evidences and reasonable arguments are quite useful..
thats the whole point....u r forgetting that u r talking about one of the "BEST WOMENS EVER LAY FOOT ON EARTH" (s.a) and "THE LEADERS OF THE YOUTHS OF PARADISE!!!"(a.s)... i am not comparing the above situation, but ure quesiton is similar to "can the Prophet (a.s) and Allah (s.w.t) take different interpretations of Quran???" (NOTE: I REPEAT: I AM NOT COMPARING THE SITUATION, NOR DA STATUS....ONLY COMPARING THE TYPE OF QUESTION .... the comparisn of Shia of Imam Ali (a.s) is wrong to what u call ibadism...inshallah u will see it soon... the same sadness and heavy-heartedness is present with every shia.....we have nothing against our sunni brothers..but a lot lies have been attributed to us, due to which its hard to unite....and the only current possible solution is to leave peacfully with each other....cuz shias and sunnis cant unite...no matter wat....there hav been mistakes from both sides....its just dat we have to learn to live together...to make things better.... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:17am
|
So bother asda #the people who took power after Prophet (a.s), were da same people who took the rights of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and behaved unjustly towards them...so much so that they even did zulm to them... what is ure 1st reaction to the above claim???? # Brother ,I knew i am nothing in front of both Ahlul Bayat and sahaba ,don't try fool me here . Any attempt to pass judgment on them is horrible thing to me . May Allah protect me from going that far ...zulm ... whom ? It is interesting that you know zulm as if you know reality and facts and actual conditions when this zulm happen ,to you all written down nothing missed ,yes?  I knew there is something important ,this giving you kind of power ,i am feeling it ,because of this you don't care reality and facts and actual conditionsonce again What is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ? we are approaching the core... please answer it clearly |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:35am
i dont aim to offend u....but i just wanted to knw... btw...wat is the reason of ure above answer???
i have already told u...all three.....but for debate purposes people usually use evidences and reasonable argument... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:15pm
|
www... Brother Asda ,let us approach the point differently again #What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ?# #i am not comparing the above situation, but ure quesiton is similar to "can the Prophet (a.s) and Allah (s.w.t) take different interpretations of Quran???" (NOTE: I REPEAT: I AM NOT COMPARING THE SITUATION, NOR DA STATUS....ONLY COMPARING THE TYPE OF QUESTION# This show that in your eyes ,Ahlul bayat is divine  #What is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ?# #all three.....these issues can be solved taken any one of the three points into consideration...but for debates, evidences and reasonable arguments are quite useful.. # Why you make things so much complicate ?Why not give clear definitive answer Just answer this Ahlul bayat is divine ??? Just YES or No ,do not play word games |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 3:07am
can u please answer the query u left:
how is my answer complicated??? what have i left unclear in dat??please answer.. [/QUOTE]Ahlul bayt (a.s) is divine ???[/QUOTE] yah they are.... i hope u dont find this complecated... 
|
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 5:18am
So it means (a)if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ... (b) It is impossible for lady Fatima to had different opinion with her son because they both divine beings .... Ok Divine nature of Ahlul bayat is something huge business ,which make known to the world clearly according you .you & me not there when this great news revealed but there were human beings who lived at that time.I list them below ,please pick up some one who known for statement Ahlul bayat is Divine
|
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 5:50am
|
#how is my answer complicated??? what have i left unclear in dat??please answer..
# brother asda divinity do not in same line with evidences and reasonable argument,when divinity here no more evidences and reasonable argument is needed. i will not available for next couple weeks , i had business relationship with Iranian who are shia but never had discussion on faith related issuers it is my first experience of talking with shia about spirituality so if anything i said offended you ,i am sorry i knew making Muslim brother unhappy is something one must avoid .Thank you for your information on shia creed ,you enriched my knowledge greatly ,i hope your stay in this forum longer it help sunni understand shia accurately . i am going to debate you later hope you are here when i come back from work , May Allah give you peace |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 10:20am
|
ohh...okay...
we will continue this debate wen u come back...i hope u have a nice time... but just for the readers sake...i will just give a short answer.. the divinity of ahlel bayt (a.s) can be proved by looking into their fazilat shown to us by Prophet (a.s) or thru quran..
thats a very narrow thinking bro....we see that Ahlel Bayt (a.s) cant go against the Quran....therfore their position in every matter can be proved thru quran...which can be seen as an evidence....they all go hand in hand...i knw u wanted to prove dat we follow the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) blindly, by making me say some stuff...but how could i lie??? but still u go on and say:
isnt it possible that the stand of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) is seen to be right because: 1: it goes inline with quran as evidences 2: it goes inline with logic as reasonable arguments and 3: they are right because they are devine... all three can go with each other...cant it??? it surly can.. i again wish u a nice time ahead.... tc.. khz.. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 9:26pm
Divinity??? Of mortal human biengs??? Are we even talking about Islam anymore?
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 29 November 2008 at 4:30am
|
yes we r talking about Physically mortal human beings here....
if one goes near to Allah (s.w.t)(through taqwa) it is possible to achieve a level of closeness which is then rewarded by Allah (s.w.t) through his blessings... proof from the holy Quran: in Chapter al Bara'at, Allah calls the prophet to be, "(he is) most so licitous for your welfare, (he is) most kind and merciful to the believers" (9:128). Wait, you might ask isn't Allah the most kind and merciful to the believers? Isn't this shirk? But Allah (SWT) is saying this Himself. Only people with open hearts come to understand that when Allah(s.w.t) says the prophet is the most kind and merciful, it is because Allah(s.w.t) himself has wanted this attribute to be in the prophet (s.a.w)..and this was a blessing bestowed due to his (spiritual) closness to Allah (s.w.t).. and the verse 33:33 talks about devine purity of Ahlel Bayt (a.s)...... isnt it Possible for Allah (s.w.t) to shower his blessings on his servents??? isnt this Islam??? for there is no doubt in anybody's mind that The Prophet (s.a.w) was a slave of Allah (s.w.t)...cuz in tashahud we recite: "Ash had w'anna laa ilaaha illallah, Wa ash-had wanaa Muhammad o Abdo-ho wa-rasoolo......" Abd means "Slave" regards asda p:s...i am not an expert in roman arabic....there might be minor errors in the arabic sentence i wrote...plz let me knw if u find one..thnx.. |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 30 November 2008 at 11:04pm
|
(33:33) And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance. Establish Prayer, give Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only wishes to remove uncleanness from you, O members of the (Prophet�s) household, and to purify you completely. A section of the people have not only misconstrued this verse to the extent that they have made the word ahl al-bait exclusively applicable to Hadrat `AIi and Fatimah and their children to the exclusion of the holy wives, but have gone even further and concluded wrongly from its words "Allah only intends to remove uncleanliness from you and purify you completely", that Hadrat 'Ali and Fatimah and their children are infallable like the Prophets of Allah. They say that "uncleanliness" implies error and sin, and, as Allah says, these ahl al-bait have been purified of this, whereas the words of the verse do not say that uncleanliness has been removed from them and they have been purified. But the words are to the effect: "Allah intends to remove uncleanliness from you and purify you completely. " The context also does not tell that the object here is to mention the virtues and excellences of the Holy Prophet's household. On the contrary, they have been advised here what they should do and what they should not, because Allah intends to purify them. In other words, they have been told that if they adopted such and such an attitude and way of life, they will be blessed with cleanliness, otherwise not. However, if the words "Allah intends to remove uncleanliness from yon . . . " are taken to mean that AIlah has made them infallable, then is no reason why all the Muslims who perform their ablutions before offering the Prayer are not held as infallable, because about them also Allah says: "But Allah wills to purify you and complete His blessings upon you." (Al-Ma'idah: 6) ------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 02 December 2008 at 3:37am
|
Br Usmani...
hope u r doing gud.. u have poised to me 2 questions and that is: 1: Who are the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) in the verse 33:33?? 2: What kind of Purity does the verse 33:33 talk about?? lets take the 1st one....i.e: Who are the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) in the verse 33:33?? The following tradition is known as "The Tradition of Cloak/Mantle" (Hadith al-Kisaa), and is as follows: Narrated Aisha: One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husain came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)." reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61. another one.. Another version of the "Tradition of Cloak" is written in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, which is narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows: The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663 One can see that the author of the above hadith confirms that: 1.Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain are the Ahlul-Bayt, 2The purification sentence in Quran (the last sentence of Verse 33:33) was revealed for the virtue of the above-mentioned individuals, and NOT for the wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). now to the second question:What kind of Purity does the verse 33:33 talk about?? it is Interesting to see that Messenger of Allah used the purification verse of Quran to prove this point. Ibn Abbas Narrated that: The Messenger of Allah recited "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification". (Quran, the last sentence of Verse 33:33) and then the Messenger of Allah said: "Thus Me and my Ahlul-Bayt are clear from sins." reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, as quoted in: al-Durr al-Manthoor, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, pp 605-606,198 under the commentary of Verse 33:33 of Quran Dala'il al-Nabawiyyah, by al-Bayhaqi Others such as al-Tabarani, Ibn Mardawayh, Abu Nu'aym, etc. i hope i have addressed all issues raised.. regards asda |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 03 December 2008 at 10:55pm
|
Brother Asda;
Brother as far as the who are the ahle bait, Quran is very clear about it. Have a look on the following clarification regarding this issue of Maula Maudoodi the great Islamic scholar.
The context in which this verse occurs makes it manifest that the word ahl al-bait (people of the house) here implies the wives of the Holy Prophet (upon whom be Allah's peace), because the address begins with: "O wives of the Prophet," and they are the addressees in the whole discourse preceding it as well as following it. Moreover, the word ahl al-bait in Arabic is used precisely in the sense in which the word "household" is used in English, which includes both a man's wife and children. No one would exclude the wife from the "household." The Qur'an itself has used this word at two other places besides this, and at both the wife is included in its sense, rather as the most important member of the family. In Surah Hud, when the angels give the Prophet Abraham the good news of the birth of a son, his wife exclaims: "Shall I bear a child now when I have grown too old, and this husband of mine has also become old?" The angels say: What! Are you surprised at Allah's decree, O people of Abraham's household? Allah's mercy and blessings are upon you." In Surah Al-Qasas, whcn the Prophet Moses reaches the Pharaoh's house as a suckling, and the Pharaoh's wife is in search of a suitable nurse for the child, the Prophet Moses' sister says, "Shall I tell you of a household whose people will bring him up for you and look after him well?" Thus, the Arabic idiom and the usage of the Qur'an and the context of this verse, 'all point clearly to the fact that the Holy Prophet's wives as well as his children are included in his ahl al-bait; rather the more correct thing is that the verse is actually addressed to the wives and the children become included in the household only because of the sense of the word. That is why according to lbn 'Abbas and 'Urwah bin Zubair and `Ikrimah, the word ahl al-bait in this verse implies the wives of the Holy Prophet. But if somebody says that the word ahl al-bait has been used only for the wives and none else can be included in it, it will also be wrong. Not only this that the word "household" includes all the members of a man's family, but the Holy Prophct has himself explained that this includes even himself. According to Ibn Abi Hatim, once when Hadrat `A'ishah was asked about Hadrat `Ali, she said, Do you ask me about the person who was among the most loved ones of the Holy Prophet and whose wife was the Holy Prophet's daughter and most beloved to him?" Then she related the event whcn the Holy Prophet had called Hadrat 'Ali and Fatimah and Hasan and Husain (may Allah be pleased with them all) and covered them alI with a sheet of cloth and prayed: "O Allah, these are my houschold, remove uncleanness from them and make them pure." Hadrat 'A'ishah says, "I said: I also am included among your household (i.e. I may also be covered under the sheet and prayed for). " Thereupon the Holy Prophet replied" You stay out: you, . of course, are already included." A great many Ahadith bearing on this subject have been related by traditionists like Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ahmad, Ibn Jarir, Hakim, Baihaqi, etc. on the authority of Abu Said Khudri, Hadrat 'A'ishah, Hadrat Anas, Hadrat Umm Salamah, Hadrat Wathilah bin Aqsa' and some other Companions, which show that the Holy Prophet declared Hadrat 'AIi and Fatimah and their two sons as his ahl al-bait. Therefore, the view of those who exclude them from the ahl al-bait is not correct. Hoping that you will ponder on the above clarification and it will help you to remove yours misconception of ahadith you quoted. May Allah make us to understand the true teaching of Quran and Sunnah. Ameen. Regards, Usmani ------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 8:19am
|
Br. Usmani..
i read ure reply..inshallah i will look thru it thuroughly....i would advice that please next time dont use such small fonts..its irritating... before we continue.....are we square on the fact that Ayah 33:33 talk about both spiritual and Physical Purity?? |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 11 December 2008 at 5:29am
|
Brother Asda;
Quote:-before we continue.....are we square on the fact that Ayah 33:33 talk about both spiritual and Physical Purity??
The purity and cleaniness is means here is that, saving Ahle-bait from shaitan's missguidence etc,its not making them "masume as" All the Prophets of Allah used to be. ------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 9:11am
|
Br Usmani
we are basically looking at two really big chapters and inshallah we will try to look into the depths of it.. the evidence that the verse 33:33 starts with adressing the wives of Rasulullah (s.a.w) cant be applied here because we have already seen in the hadith that the last part was not revealed with the first part of the aayah... The Prophet (a.s) has on other places mentioned only Imam Ali (a.s), H.Fatima (s.a) and thier two sons (a.s) as his Ahle Bayt... . When the verse was revealed "But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars." (3:61), the Prophet (s) called �Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn and said: �O Allah, these are my Family (Ahli)�. Muslim, al-Sahih, (English translation), book 031, number 5915 http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/031.smt.html other sources: al�Hakim al�Naysaburi, al�Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, volume 3, page 150. He states that it is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim Ibn Hajar al-�Asqalani, Fath al-Bari Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 7, page 60 al-Tirmidhi, al-Sahih, kitab al-manaqib, volume 5, page 596 Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, volume 1, page 185 al-Suyuti, History of Khalifas Who Took The Right Way, (London, 1995), page 176 now adressing the second issue... The Messenger of Allah recited "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification". (Quran, the last sentence of Verse 33:33) and then the Messenger of Allah said: "Thus Me and my Ahlul-Bayt are clear from sins." reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, as quoted in: al-Durr al-Manthoor, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, pp 605-606,198 under the commentary of Verse 33:33 of Quran Dala'il al-Nabawiyyah, by al-Bayhaqi Others such as al-Tabarani, Ibn Mardawayh, Abu Nu'aym, etc. regards Asda |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 11:16pm
|
Brother Asda; It is not correct to conclude your own that (last part was not revealed with the first part of the aayah) just because complete ayah is not there. You will find in many ahadith part of ayah to let the people know about the verse they are referring to. In Quran we find them in one verse and that is good enough. Quote:-The Prophet (a.s) has on other places mentioned only Imam Ali (a.s), H.Fatima (s.a) and thier two sons (a.s) as his Ahle Bayt... When the verse was revealed "But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars." (3:61), the Prophet (s) called �Ali, Prophet (pbuh) did not say here that they are the only ahle- bayt and and His wives are not included in ahle-bait.Did you not see the ahadith where Hazrat Aishah (RA) narrated the event (I also am included among your household (i.e. I may also be covered under the sheet and prayed for (" Thereupon the Holy Prophet replied" You stay out: you, . of course, are already included.") I am sorry but its appear that you are some how only trying to get your desire meaning from the ahadith and not realizing the clear words of Quran in this regards.
------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 11:47pm
|
tBrother Asda let us continue our discussion ###if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ...?### ### u wanted to prove dat we follow the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) blindly, by making me say some stuff...but how could i lie??? ### then why you believe lady Fatima always right ? #### 1: it goes inline with quran as evidences 2: it goes inline with logic as reasonable arguments and 3: they are right because they are devine... #### It is interesting where are three element A quran as evidences B reasonable arguments C they are devine So Abu Babir and other sahabas do not know these ABC which you do know ?Can you say I am better person than Abu Babir who prophet praised several times ? |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 9:33am
Br Usmani:
let me remind u that the narrator is narrating the whole incident in the above haidith...therfore if the whole aayah would hav been sent on that occasion, then it is a matter of tahreef from the narrator...since this is not the case....its hard to understand y would the narrator skip out the 1st part (if it was there) widout any good reason... Can u please bring me the hadith where Ayesha have said this " also am included among your household (i.e. I may also be covered under the sheet and prayed for (" Thereupon the Holy Prophet replied" You stay out: you, . of course, are already included"
i would clarify that by devine i dint mean godly creatures...by devine i meant people who are blessed by Allah (s.w.t).... secondly...the comparison of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) to the quran and haq and comparing thier anger to his, and his anger to Allah (s.w.t) and many such sayings by holy Prophet (a.s) in varios hadith proves the point that the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) will never err as for example quran never makes mistakes....and Imam Ali (a.s) is said to be, by the Prophet (a.s), as ONE WHO IS WITH THE QURAN.....the Prophet (a.s) was not reciting some kind of poetry in praise of Imam Ali (a.s) (maazallah) wen he said this....this is a recorded saying in varios books.... i hope further research in such types of hadith will help u analyse this subject better... regards Asad Raza |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 9:38am
|
Br Uigher
welcome bak....how did ure buisness trip go??? did u have any religios conversation with shia brothers u met?? or anything that is intresting or different u saw about them??? do let me know how things went (if its not personal!!!!) I am just saying that H.Fatima (a.s) had better understanding of quran than abu bakr...wen she debated her issue on fidak, she did bring up varios quranic aayats to prove her claim....i mean these people (a.s) were brought up by Prophet (a.s) himself...lived with him 24/7 ....who could have learnt about quran more than them (a.s)... again i would clairify that by devine i dont mean godly creatures....by devine i meant that these people are specially blessed servents of Allah (s.w.t)... |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 December 2008 at 1:37am
|
[QUOTE=asda] I am just saying that H.Fatima (a.s) had better understanding of quran than abu bakr...wen she debated her issue on fidak, she did bring up varios quranic aayats to prove her claim....i mean these people (a.s) were brought up by Prophet (a.s) himself...lived with him 24/7 ....who could have learnt about quran more than them (a.s)... QUOTE] This is what I dislike about Shias. . . u put Sahaba up against each other, and love to comment on thier piety etc and pretend you know whose better than the other.
No good, Allah fearing Muslim would EVER make distinctions b/w Sahaba of the Prophet. Saying such things like u just said simply reenforces how Shiitism is a deviation from Prophet Muhammad's Islam.
Abu Bakr was the 2nd person to enter Islam, and was always in Prophet Muhammad's company, he was mentioned in the Quran as the '2nd of the two' - he is part of the ashrahe mubasharah . . . you simply cannot say that he was less knowledgable than any other Sahabi!!!!!!! Same goes for Lady Fatima (R.A) ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Sometimes I'm amazed people say such things, let alone believe them. To make an entire sect and code of life, based on petty issues such as succession, and who is better than whom . . . it is eons away from the message Allah revealed through Prophet Muhammad. I repeat, Allah will not ask you on the day of judgement whether Abu Bakr was right or whether Fatima was. . . And any 'sect' that is based on exactly those fundamentals, went waaay wrong somewhere down the road.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 4:51am
|
Br. Asad Raza,
Quote�-let me remind u that the narrator is narrating the whole incident in the above haidith...therfore if the whole aayah would hav been sent on that occasion, then it is a matter of tahreef from the narrator...since this is not the case....its hard to understand y would the narrator skip out the 1st part (if it was there) widout any good reason... There could be many reasons for that but please brother do not try to take some meaning out of it which is not there.You are not able to brought any such hadith which is clerly showing yours point so far. Quote:-Can u please bring me the hadith where Ayesha have said this " also am included among your household (i.e. I may also be covered under the sheet and prayed for (" Thereupon the Holy Prophet replied" You stay out: you, . of course, are already included" It is mentioned in the Quran commentory �Tafheem ul-Quran� written by Maudoodi Sahib.There are others ahadith as well. In Sahih Bukhari, the Prophet specifically refers to Aisha as part of Ahle Bayt: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 316 Narrated Anas: A banquet of bread and meat was held on the occasion of the marriage of the Prophet to Zainab bint Jahsh. I was sent to invite the people (to the banquet), and so the people started coming (in groups). They would eat and then leave. Another batch would come, eat and leave. So I kept on inviting the people till I found nobody to invite. Then I said, �O Allah�s Prophet! I do not find anybody to invite.� He (the Prophet) said, �Carry away the remaining food.� Then a batch of three persons stayed in the house chatting. The Prophet left and went towards the dwelling place of Aisha and said, �Peace and Allah�s Mercy be on you, Ya Ahlel Bayt (O the people of the house)!� She replied, �Peace and the mercy of Allah be on you too. How did you find your wife? May Allah bless you.� Then he went to the dwelling places of all his other wives and said to them the same as he said to Aisha and they said to him the same as Aisha had said to him. Sahih Bukhari is considered the most reliable book of Hadith, and therefore there is no doubt that this is an authoratative declaration that the Prophet�s wives are Ahlel Bayt. the reality is that an unbiased view of the Hadith merely confirms the Quran, namely that the Prophet�s wives are part of the Ahlel Bayt. It is narrated in Sahih Muslim by Zayd ibn Arqam (رضّى الله عنه) that the Prophet�s wives are part of the Ahlel Bayt. In Sahih Muslim (Book 31, Chapter 4, Hadith-5920) Quote:-secondly...the comparison of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) to the quran and haq and comparing thier anger to his, and his anger to Allah (s.w.t) and many such sayings by holy Prophet (a.s) in varios hadith proves the point that the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) will never err as for example quran never makes mistakes....and Imam Ali (a.s) is said to be, by the Prophet (a.s), as ONE WHO IS WITH THE QURAN.....the Prophet (a.s) was not reciting some kind of poetry in praise of Imam Ali (a.s) (maazallah) wen he said this....this is a recorded saying in varios books.... Which muslim will deny of what Hazrat Ali were in the eye of Prophet(pbuh).Prophet(pbuh) have also praises many others Shaba in various ahadith even Quran its self praises sahaba in many occasions.Have a look on the following verse and hadith. And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flOw, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement.(Taubah-100) Narrated Humaid: I heard Muawiya bin Abi Sufyan delivering a sermon. He said, "I heard the Prophet saying, "If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and sunna. I am but a distributor, and Allah is the Giver. The state of this nation will remain good till the Hour is established, or till Allah's Order comes." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #415) We have received the Quran and Sunnah through sahabah and who ever following Quran,Sunnah and ways of sahabah, is infact complying to the above verse of Quran and the above mentioned hadith. Regards, Usmani ------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 6:24am
|
to Chrysalis
But surly Allah (s.w.t) will ask me about my actions....and the biggest question is.....where does my actions come from...and recognising them is the biggest question here...Wen i see the daughter of the Prophet (a.s) and abu bakr on two different ends, i shud know who words should i take in order to be a successful muslims... please base ure answer on some facts bro....ure childish comments will not help this discussion go anywhere.... |
Posted By: Uighur
Date Posted: 24 December 2008 at 6:27am
|
Bother asda First thank you for your kind concern over my recent business trip .Since my stuff with Shia brothers are all about business ,I usually do not talk about religion with them . You know many Muslims ,Shia or Sunni , don't interest in theological matters seriously. Any way that is normal . Turning subject I am not trying to win the argument or make you look funny .Becuase in this world there are no winner in true sense ,we Muslim people are trying to be winner hereafter for everlasting life . I believe in this regard we have common ground . From beginning what I am trying here is understanding your point .If my understanding is correct you toke Ahlul Bayat as sole guidance . That probably make you shia however we do not reject Ahlul Bayat , If you study Sunni Islam seriously you would found that we sunni Muslim did have deep & unbreakable connection to the Ahlul Bayt. For example Imam al-Baqir other members of Ahlul Bayt had gived Ijaza to Al-Imam al-A'zam,founder of Hanafi school which I belong to .It well known Imam as-Sadiq had taught Al-Imam al-A'zam. So many teaching of members of Ahlul Bayt are preserved in the sunni Madhhabs as well .Therefore please do not make youself unhappy believing that our ummet lost Ahlul Bayt's teachings . In reality you can't imagine how much do we love Ahlul Bayt .Any muslim who got little education do know that loving Ahlul Bayt is part of Iman. So sadly you keep trying turn a political conflict which happen about 1400 years ago into a theological matter with your ABC (A quran as evidences B reasonable arguments C they are devine) .Religion is much more bigger than a political event in history,history is academical stuff we should better leave this perie of history to Allah for only Allah knew what happen about 1400 years ago . To picture a political event in history as basic of theological build-up is like build a huge mansion with handful of rocks ,you can do it using your imagination but not in real world . World need religion not a detailed analysis of certain event in history |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 24 December 2008 at 1:51pm
Uighur; Very well stated I see the same scenario with Jews their claim of a chosen family trumping everything else! I can give you a point to ponder why has Shiism been gaining ground since the advent of the western colonialism and imperialism just like the rise of the Zionism across the board! Any collusion of the interests and minds? Think about it?
Arafah Day observed at Husseini shrine HOLY CITY OF KARBALA, Iraq: Millions of devotees from Iraq, Iran, India, Pakistan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Tanzania and many other parts of the world paid visit to the holy mausoleum of Chief of Martyrs Al-Imam Abi Abdellah Al-Hussein (peace of Allah be on him) in the holy city of Karbala amid tight security measures marking the blessed Day of Arafah, the Zul-hijja 9, which fell this year on December 8 Monday.
The pilgrims from across the country thronged the holy
shrine on the night and day of Arafah, an occasion when a visit to the
grandson of holy Prophet (peace of Allah be on him and his pure
progeny), Chief of Youth of Paradise Al-Imam Al-Hussein bin Ali bin
Abi Taleb (peace of Allah be on them) is highly recommended by
traditions. What blasphemy? Just pay attention to the home made hadith above by these people who have no qualms in doing what ever like the Jews to create a fitna amongst the brain dead or brainwashed ignorant folks! Then they want stay as Muslims LOL How did Prophet know that these miscreants would be gathering at Karbala 1400 years ago and that they would use his name in vain along Allah's to create this sacrilege in a futile attempt to knock down the value of Hujjaj's effort of spending their time and savings to complete the final pillar of faith! And Allah looking at Karbala before Ararfat...WOW The problem is it all this happening while the Sunni world that became too fat, dumb and happy has been under constant western attacks for over a century and losing the bases and the Shiias have gained every time! The Sunni lands are being invaded by western forces or are under their secular puppets' control while the Shiias are speaking from both ends of their mouths and sitting pretty! Just look at Iraq the moronic Bush and under Zionist and turn coat shia agents went bankrupt creating a new Shiit country with parallel bases against the Arabia.....I don't see the fix any time soon cuz the Sunnis can't speak about it just like the American can't speak about the Zionists who have done a country like US in..........Is it too heavy? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 4:04am
|
Br Uigher..
ya i can understand how bzness trips usually are... well...wat u call politics, these events are actually a source of knowing the character of some people at that time....for example, sunni brothers do highly praise muawiyah and his son (i know most of them dont praise yazid(l.a)..but still some still do)...so its better if we take the example of muawiyah only....one of the places where muawiyah's trechory and lies are exposed when he had signed the peace treaty with Imam Hassan (a.s) and dint abide by it....did he??..or did he not??? well if the truth is in front of u...how can such a person be called "raziallah anhum" (maazallah) because this statement is only reserved for the pious... do u agree or not??? so now...shud we take religion from people who were around muawiyah or even muawiyah himself....wen we know he dint abide by the pact just like the quraysh dint abide by their truce at the time of Prophet (a.s)??? arent people who dont abide by thier promises clearly termed as hypocrites by the Prophet (a.s)(i read dat in a hadith wen i was small)??? same is the case about fidak...even if one of them is not right to fight their case, then obviosly that person either is not faithful or does not have proper knowledge of islam..isnt it??? so atleast one of them is mistaken?? and above all that...dint the Prophet (a.s) ordered us to follow the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) and Quran after him??? so y take religion from other than ahlel bayt(a.s) regardless if others were sincere or not.....i mean...u said 2 of ure fiqhi imams were student of Imam Ja'far e Sadiq (a.s)....so y do u learn from the students??? y dont u learn from the source in itself??? do think about it... and in the end...the importance of a detailed analysis of history cannot be ignored for we can then only know who were the right people and who were the wrong people in history....and whos example we shud follow and whos example we shud not follow.... |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 4:20am
|
now Mr sign*reader....
in ure baseless analysis of an article from a very questionable source, and widout any quote of such hadith...u r not only showing ureself to be a blinded by ure hate towards lovers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) but u hav also showed how much do u follow islam... no doubt there is fazeelat of going to karbala on the day of arafat....but comparing its merits to being in arafat is just baseless... even tho...the website u hav copied from has been influenced by some odd political party in pakistan....so..thus this website is not considered as a source of correct information.... to add to dat.....u see the situation of the world in a way no one does....while the sunni goverments and sunni militant forces bow down to the zionist israel and american leaders, the shia goverment's leader is the only leader in the world who has guts to openly warn the world of the followers of zion....and to add to that, the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) are directly and indirectly the biggest threat to the exitance of israel...hizbullah being the direct ones...and hamas, who is being funded by iran, while condemned by sunni leaders, being the indirect ones are the ones fighting against evil and open enemy....i remember during israel-hizbullah war initially the mullas in saudi supported israel in the 2006 war...but they suddenly realized that this would expose there trechory and lies....and they had to retreat in their stance...and stayed passive....and dint hav the guts to support hizbullah to satisfy the americans..... but still...the real sunnis alhamd knows and accepts the fact and would any day praise hamas and hizbullah for their efforts....the truth is hard to absorb for the haters.. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 3:20pm
You just love to bark what ever comes to your mind....Questionable source, off course...the Largest Shia News in the World.... Why don't you start your own let us know and also contact them for their publishing of the Fitna non sense!
Can you name a viable Sunni one in conflict region?
Which one? Who helped the Zionists attack Iraq remember Ahmed Chillabi! Nouri Al MAliki another Shia and US Israeli puppet!
Oh really! Why is that ? after every Western assault on Muslim lands the Shiias end up with more power... Have we heard the double speak some where?
Non sequitur Do you see me advocating for them? Who told you that Saudis are Sunnis and are on right side of the tracks? They are well known western lackeys! A question why did Iran help west against Afghanistan? The hapless Palestinians would get slaughtered for duplicity of the Iranian propaganda, that is all....I would like to see them come help and prove their crap... ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 11:28pm
lol so u r saying none cud survive the attack of the zionist...well..jordan and the leader of lebanon are the two examples who bowed down to da zionist threats.. to add to that the puppet goverment of afghanistan and the back stabbers of palestine who dint accept the hamas goverment.,...the sunni fatah forces...
lol...u naming those as if they were some kind of religios personalities.....btw..and whos helping them stay..zarqawi etc etc....to add to all that...do u see y america is making more weapons and starting more conflicts in muslim regions...do u know how easily ameirica can get a reoson to attack muslims....its because the famous C.I.A agent TIM OSMAN.....WHO IS TIM OSMAN??? google the name "TIM OSMAN" now to know who he actually is...some shockers dere for u!!! btw...who is supporting hamas in the current situation??
what kind of history u read???made up in ure mind?? u.s attacked iraq in gulf war...guess who came to power???to add to dat, can u please name ONE sunni leader who has not yet bowed down to zionists???atleast ONE!!
in ure dreams....infact the iranians had many afghani refugees in their own lands.... in general..i would remind the readers dat i am no way against the common sunnis...its just that some elements, which exists in both sides are the source of the problem..... |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 28 December 2008 at 10:12pm
|
I asked you to name independent Sunni Sharia run countries in the area and you are beating about the bush......I know there is none since the fall of the Caliphate ........
Duh....
You make me laugh ...why you are going into the trivial no bodies... Fatah Sunni are you kidding they are sold goods...
Non sequitur
Nobody is doing that if you ask me ...Those poor guys are getting slaughtered on the Iranian promises! A good trick to eliminate whatever Sunnis are left in that place! Seems like you are taking a nap.......
In Iraq it is absolutely clear the secular Saddam was killed off by the Iranian agents with the help of US ;Israeli agents in tow handed over the power to the Shiit puppets one after another whether with election or without... now you have Iranian agents sitting pretty after ethnically cleansing the Sunni neighborhoods! The country looks like almost an Iranian colony ...US has no problem other than empty bluster once in while and Bushes eight years have gone by! At least Saddam didn't surrender and so Umar of Afghanistan!
You can google for the information, I don't spoon feed..of course if you can't get it I will help you then, I am reading one article right now.....Big deal if Iran let the Shii Afghanis in ......... I can quote you lots of big examples where the Shii officials helped the invaders in knocking over the weak Muslims states...and millions lost their lives before this remember it was Halaku slaughter! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 29 December 2008 at 4:39am
|
Urghui: file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRaheleh%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Religion is much more bigger than a political event in history Saghife was a political event to deviate from what Allah swt and His messenger had already clarified to do. Let me refer to proclamation of prophet (sawa) with regards to Ali (as) on the day of Gadire Khom. The event of Ghadir Khom in Islam was not a political event. It was performed by the prophet (sawa) in front of thousands of people who were performing the last Haj Pilgrimage with him. It was perfectly a religious event in which the Prophet (sawa) introduced Ali (as) by Allah�s order and asked people to be with Ali (as) (for being not misled after the death of the prophet). However, what happened after the death of the prophet? A group of people formed an emergent meeting (politically) to elect a successor to the prophet (Abu Bakr) while religiously the situation was never black and white. Allah swt had clarified it regarding Ali (as) and Mohammad (sawa) proclaimed it. World need religion not a detailed analysis of certain event in history All religions are to be known from certain events in history. Are the miracles of all prophets not certain events in history? |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 29 December 2008 at 4:47am
|
Sign*Reader: Just pay attention to the home made hadith above by these people who have no qualms in doing what ever like the Jews to create a fitna amongst the brain dead or brainwashed ignorant folks! Then they want stay as Muslims LOL I do not know the level of authenticity of such a hadith. However, how can you let yourself call Shias not Muslims and compare them to Jews, Zionists and others? According to what evidence? Can you give evidence from Quran which proves that anyone who does not believe that Allah swt MUST first look at Arafat on Arafe day is not Muslim? All Shias who may be visitors of Hussein in Karbala on Arafe day for some years would certainly be in Arafat on Arafe day whenever they are performing Haj in some other years. How do you know that the value of Arafat and Haj is knocked down besides Shia Hujjaj? Do you know its value in the heart of Hujjaj or it is just your conjecture or emotion? |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 29 December 2008 at 10:59pm
|
myahya: Please read at the site given down below! The Devil's Deception The Mirage in Iranhttp://kalamullah.com/sects.html - http://kalamullah.com/sects.html ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 30 December 2008 at 2:22am
|
Br.Asda, I am waiting for yours reply of my last post.
Regards,
Usmani ------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 30 December 2008 at 12:26pm
|
dear br Usmani...i apologise for dat...i had not read dat...
I am a bit bz nowadays...inshallah i will reply u in some time...keep looking in this space....hopefulli next week inshallah.... |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 04 January 2009 at 2:53am
|
As Salamu Alaikum
asda - who are "Panjatan" - a concept of your faith ? I mean whom do you comprise these as panjatan ?
myahya, i wish even you to answer it. Hope, you don't hold any such reasons of escapisms -- being busy , was n't well etc
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 06 January 2009 at 4:23am
|
myahya, i wish
even you to answer it. Hope, you don't hold any such reasons of escapisms --
being busy , was n't well etc The very basic concept of
my faith (if you mean the basic pillars) is the following: Monotheism � Prophethood - Resurrection
and Life Hereafter |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 07 January 2009 at 2:07pm
|
Dear Br. Usmani.
Panjetan is a word usually reffered to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w), Hazrat Fatima (s.a), Imam Ali (a.s), Imam Hassan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) in the sub-continent...
By looking into the tafseer "Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi" i dont see why there should be doubts left anymore...inshallah this will help in ure research... tafseer of the verse Al-Wahidi states: (Allah�s wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household�) [33:33]. Abu Bakr al-Harithi informed us> Abu Muhammad ibn Hayyan> Ahmad ibn �Amr ibn Abi �Asim> Abu�l-Rabi� al-Zahrani> �Ammar ibn Muhammad> al-Thawri> Sufyan> Abu�l-Jahhaf> �Atiyyah> Abu Sa�id [al-Khudri] who said regarding the verse (Allah�s wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household�): �It was revealed about five people: the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, �Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn, may Allah be well pleased with all of them�. Abu Sa�id al-Nasruyiyy informed us> Ahmad ibn Ja�far al-Qati�i> �Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal> his father> Ibn Numayr> �Abd al-Malik> �Ata� ibn Abi Rabah who said: �Some of those who heard Umm Salamah related to me that she mentioned that the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, was in her house when Fatimah, may Allah be well pleased with her, came with a pot containing a meat dish. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said to her: �Call for me your husband and your sons!� �Ali, al-Hasan and al-Husayn came in and sat down to eat from the meat dish while the Prophet was sitting on his place of sleep and he had under him a garment made in Khaybar. Umm Salamah said: �I was praying in my room when Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse (Allah�s wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household�). He grabbed the extension of the garment and covered them with it. Then, he got his hands out, raised them toward heaven and said: �O Allah, these are the folk of my household and my closest family members, please remove uncleanness from them and cleanse them with a thorough cleansing�. I put my head inside and said: �And I am with you, O Messenger of Allah!� And he answered: �You will gain good! You will gain good!� � � Abu�l-Qasim �Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad al-Sarraj informed us> Muhammad ibn Ya�qub> al-Hasan ibn �Ali ibn �Affan> Abu Yahya al-Hamani> Salih ibn Musa al-Qurashi> Khusayf> Sa�id ibn Jubayr> Ibn �Abbas who said: �This verse was revealed about the wives of the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace (Allah�s wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing)�. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=33&tAyahNo=33&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0 Please note that Al-Wahidi is quoting a Hadith when he says it was revealed for five people... In order to understand more of what I am trying to tell you, please read from the verse 28 till 33 of the same chapter...
We differ in the last part of the hadith...therfore if u know of any more ahaadith, then it would be better if you bring them forward... Over here i would also like to continue our discussion on the type of purity...as you believe it is physical, while i believe it is spiritual...inshallah the following words from tafaseer will intrest u... Tafseer Tanw�r al-Miqb�s min Tafs�r Ibn �Abb�s: (Allah's wish) in this (is but to remove uncleanness) sin (far from you, O Folk of the Household) of the Prophet, (and cleanse you) from sins (with a thorough cleansing. Tafseer al-Jalalayn Indeed God will but to rid you of sin, O, People of the House, in other words, [O] women of the Prophet (s), and to purify you, of it, with a thorough purification. even though tafseer al-Jalalayn adds this kind of purity to the wives of the Prophet (a.s) as well, but this is not possible...to understand what I am saying please read the same surah from verse 28 till 33 and first few aayahs of surah tahreem..
So is it haram to analyse the lives of the people we take religion from???.....and if there are clear signs of these people being not good muslims then???? It is important to open ones mind in these discussions... regards Asad Raza |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 4:26am
|
Dear I did not ask for it.Any way since you have brought it here and this what we are discussing here as well. See you are failed to brought any hadith where Prophet(pbuh) him self clearly said that these five are the only ale bayt. Instead verse 33:33 of Quran clearly says wives of the Prophet(pbuh) Ale-bayt.Hadith of Bukhari with the haditrh reference provided to you where Prophet(pbuh) him self calling Hazrat Aisha(RA) ahle-bayt .But it seems that without any clear reference from Quran and Sunnah you people have made your aqida that these five are ale-bayt excluding the Prophet�s (pbuh)wives and Ali(RA),Fatima(RA),Hasan(RA),Hussain(RA)are infallible as well.May be that is become so common in shia commnity that this panjatan can be seen in almost every shia mosque here in Pakistan.If you still can�t see yours wrong understanding from Quran and Sunnah with the clear proves provided to you then I can do any thing more. Quote:-Please note that Al-Wahidi is quoting a Hadith when he says it was revealed for five people... The person said it, is not referring to Prophet what he said here,may be this is his own understanding.Further more hadith reference is not there.The hadith of bukhari is considered the most reliable hadith book amongst all ahadith books.Can you see the difference what you have brought and what I? I have red it one more time brother.All these verses are for the wives of the Prophet(pbuh) may Allah blessed them all.. Quote:-We differ in the last part of the hadith...therfore if u know of any more ahaadith, then it would be better if you bring them forward... I have already provided the hadith of bukhari brother. I never said that it physical purity .I also believe that this verse is talking about spiritual purity for ale bayt.How this verse making the ahle bayt infallable you hav'nt show me with clear evidence. Quote:-even though tafseer al-Jalalayn adds this kind of purity to the wives of the Prophet (a.s) as well, but this is not possible...to understand what I am saying please read the same surah from verse 28 till 33 and first few aayahs of surah tahreem.. Why this is not possible? these verses are for the wives of Prophet (pbuh).You like it or not what Allah has to say He said for the wives of the Prophet(pbuh).Allah doesn�t care of mine and yours liking and disliking. Quote:-So is it haram to analyse the lives of the people we take religion from???.....and if there are clear signs of these people being not good muslims then???? It is important to open ones mind in these discussions... One can open his mind but brother,hidaya comes through the chest and which can only be opened by Allah subhanu wa tala.May Allah open our chest for true understanding of Islamic believes and knowledge. ------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 10 January 2009 at 1:28pm
|
Salaams br Usmani..
u have ignored the reference i have provided...but still i will try to clarify that for u inshallah... as the tafaseer states, the verse talks about spiritual purity...or..purity from sins....by ure post, i think we agree here... now lets discuss the verses 28 till 33...inshallah this will further help u understand wat i am trying to tell u... Verse 28: O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing comment: a clear warning from Allah (s.w.t) for the wives if they preffered the world more.... verse 29: And if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward. comment: and IF they chose the path of Allah (s.w.t), he (s.w.t) will reward them.... verse 30: O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this IS easy to Allah. comment: if they commit such a sin, the Allah (s.w.t) will punish them... verse 31: And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and does good, We will give to her her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honorable sustenance. comment: and for those who dont commit such a sin, will be rewarded inshallah... verse 32: O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word. comment: some precautions for the wives of Rasulullah (s.a.w) verse 33: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. comment: an advice to the wives of Prophet (s.a.w).. then comes the verse of Purity of Ahlel Bayt (a.s).....if we accept that Allah (s.w.t) has already purified the wives of Holy Prophet (a.s), then y do u think Allah (s.w.t) has to warn the wives of the Prophet (a.s) of: 1: Desiring this world 2: commiting open decency 3: taking precaution while speaking and other haram acts which is not expected from a person who is not spiritually pure... let me clarify to u that by Allah (s.w.t) warning them, i dont say that maazallah the wives of the Prophet (a.s) commited such acts...surly they had special position...thus Allah (s.w.t) had warned them....if they would have been purified, what was the use of warning them of such sinful acts?? infact all the tafseers i reffered to talks about purity from sinning...do take this all together and think about it....
please dont get inflamed..looks like u are not serios about our discussion....surly the religion of Allah (s.w.t) is superior to all likings..
i was reffering to understanding through the mind...hidayat is a gift from Allah (s.w.t) bestowed to its believers....its just that the heart should hav the strength to accept some facts...if someone is a confirmed lier, how can i quote hadith from him and people around him (muawiyah)....y do u refrain in looking into the lives of the people who one shud take religion from.... btw...just to let u knw in the end....we dont take religion from bukhari and muslim.....as our hadith come from Rasulullah (s.a.w) and his pure ahlelbayt....to add to that..bukhari has varios hadith wich are against the quran...so if something is dere in bukhari, i am showing it for u to understand.... |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 12 January 2009 at 6:18am
|
Usmani: The hadith of
bukhari is considered the most reliable hadith book amongst all ahadith books. asda has alreay qouted
following hadith from Sahih Muslim: 'A'isha reported that
Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped
cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn
under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one
(Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also
took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any
uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough
purifying) Muslim, al-Sahih, (English
translation), book 031, number 5955 http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/031.smt.html
|
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 12 January 2009 at 11:35pm
|
myahya,
Quote:-You claimed that A'isha has said that the prophet told her to be out of the cloak because she is already included. Such a claim has not been mentioned in the above hadith in Sahih Muslim, hast it? Are you saying that this hadith in Sahih Muslim is not reliable? why?
What I have said it is mentioned in the Quranic commentary Tafheem-ul-Quran written by Maudoodi sahib.He did not mention the reference from where he took it from. I am not saying that this hadith of sahih Muslim is not relible.It is a reliable hadith but taking the meaning from it that the wives of Prophet (pbuh) are not Ahle bayt is not correct.It is never said in the hadith. From Quran we know that the Prophet(pbuh) wives are ahle bayt with clear wording.Haith of bukhari says the same with clear wording of Prophet(pbuh). The hadith of Muslim telling us,in addition of the wives are ahle bayt as we know from Quran and sahih bukhari, Ali(RA),Fatima(RA).Hasan(RA), Hussain(RA) are also ahle bayt. I hope it will be clear to you now. Regards, Usmani
------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: Usmani
Date Posted: 14 January 2009 at 1:57am
|
Brother Asad Rara Assalam Alikum,
Quote:-let me clarify to u that by Allah (s.w.t) warning them, i dont say that maazallah the wives of the Prophet (a.s) commited such acts...surly they had special position...thus Allah (s.w.t) had warned them....if they would have been purified, what was the use of warning them of such sinful acts??
As you said, they did not committed such acts still Allah advising them to prevent them self of such acts. Purifying them is not means that they will become infallible as Prophets of Allah used to be. Prophets of Allah used to see the angles used receive revelations through angle.Allah used to give them the knowledge of khaib and shown them the heaven and hell so on so forth.Allah cleaned them to degree so they become infallible. There is no comparison of a Prophet and any other human being what ever the status through taqwa they have or relation with the Prophet.The proves can be seen in these verses as well where ahle bayt are told to obey Allah and Messenger as common people told. In the case of ahle bayt Allah also want to give them a bigger staus because they are Prophet family.So purification of Ahle bayt is not like the purification of Prophet.What is meant here legal(tashri) purification and not the creational (Takwini) purification which is hallmark of Prophets. That is why Allah has told them to be extra careful. ------------- Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 January 2009 at 6:22pm
Moreover, why did they not include, Khadija RA ? I wish to read any hadith from your books either ?
Br. usmani, the problem with the discussions with shiates is they don't accept our books of hadiths like Bukhari and Muslim, They don't accept the narrations of Ayesha or Abu Hurayrah RA, and they give us there books for referring. How is it possible that we come to common terms ? Moreover there Taqqiyah ? How can we even trust if they are discussing fairly with us ?
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 2:01am
|
What I
have said it is mentioned in the Quranic commentary Tafheem-ul-Quran
written by Maudoodi sahib.He did not mention the reference from where he took
it from. Thus, the claim of �Aisha
being already included� is at least seriously questionable even from referencing
point of view. I am not saying
that this hadith of sahih Muslim is not relible.It is a reliable hadith but
taking the meaning from it that the wives of Prophet (pbuh) are not Ahle bayt
is not correct.It is never said in the hadith. First I should emphasize
that the word Ahle bayt (people of house) has a general meaning that everyone can
guess. Everyone knows that wives of a man may be called generally Ahle bayt
(people of the house) since they are living with that man in his house (as long
as they are not divorced). However, in this hadith, obviously the prophet does
not refer to this general meaning of the word Ahlul bayt because: 1- He is
calling his grand children and Ali (as) as Ahle bayt while none of them had
been living with the prophet in one house. 2- If the prophet wanted to refer to
a simple general meaning, it would not make sense to use a cloak to make a
boundary around specific people. 3- Clearly and literally, in this hadith the
prophet has claimed the purity only for those people under the cloak, look: �� he also took him under
it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any
uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough
purifying)� Logically speaking, the act
of the prophet confirms it: discriminating usage of a cloak to show the
difference by making a boundary. In this hadith, obviously the Prophet (sawa)
intended to highlight a characteristic for these four people which neither
belongs to the wives nor anyone else at that time. This is what my intellect
can logically understand from the hadith. Otherwise, the hadith (regarding
the act of the prophet) would make no sense. From Quran we
know that the Prophet(pbuh) wives are ahle bayt with clear wording Do you mean 33:33? How can
one clearly know (Only from Quran) that to whom the last part of the verse 33:33
is talking? Do you think it is clear wording because the pervious sentences are
about the wives? One may guess so, but I think it is not convincing. I do not
call it clear wording. Haith of bukhari
says the same with clear wording of Prophet(pbuh). The hadith of Bukhari is
not about 33:33 and the event of cloak. It might refer to the general meaning
of Ahlul Bayt as I explained above. The hadith of
Muslim telling us,in addition of the wives are ahle bayt as we know from Quran
and sahih bukhari, Ali(RA),Fatima(RA).Hasan(RA), Hussain(RA) are also ahle
bayt. It is neither proved from
Quran nor from Hadith that the word Ahlul Bayt in 33:33 is about the wives of
the prophet (or that the wives are included). Historically, if the wives were
already included in the definition of 33:33, the prophet should have had already
performed the same usage of cloak for the wives. But we know that the prophet
performed it only one time. If the cloak does not have any meaning here why the
prophet used it at all? To waste the time?!! After all, let me quote another
version of the "Tradition of Cloak" written in Sahih al-Tirmidhi,
which is narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm
Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows: The verse "Verily
Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in
the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and
al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was
behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my
House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a
perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I
also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied:
"You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663 |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 9:39am
Mindboggling . . .
DUH ! The verse is clearly referring to the wives of Propher Muhammad. Allah uses the word 'Ahlal Bayt' for them:
Verse 32 says:
Allah is adderessing the wives of Prophet Muhammad directly in the verses that follow, which includes V.33
Notice that Verse 33 starts with 'and' which clearly means it is a continuation of the previous verse. The Wives are adderessed.
Even if we did not have verse 30 to make matters clear, Verse 33 is very clear wording, and one does not have to 'guess' who the subject of the verse is. . .
VERSE 33: And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless."
Word used for members of the family : "ahlaalbayti wayutahhirakum "
How can you be confused about who is bieng adderessed. How is it not clear wording? If not the wives of the Prophet, who else is bieng adderessed here in this verse? Can u pl answer that?
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 16 January 2009 at 1:05pm
|
br Chrysalis
actually we are not confused but sad to see a confused view from your side...reading the verse before 33:33 confirms about the purication issue.... br usmani.. can you bring sufficient proof of your claim on the type of purity...cuz i hav shown you few books of tafseer which talks about spiritual purity only....can you please give me a reason for your rejection?? |