Hi everybody,

Because many of us were just drifting away from the thread of the topics - in "Is Mohammad the last Prophet?" and "Islamic state" -- and touched upon the fundamentals of Islam [ and Christianity ] I think I better start this topic : The Qur'an II. And if you want to wander away and make comparisons to the Bible then it is just OK with me ....

I named this topic The Qur'an II, because in July 2002 I started  in this forum the topic " The Qur'an", which only lasted a month, after 54 postings, because I got confused and needed a break ...  But after a few days of its start 'The Quran" was then joined by the topic "To Thomas" by Nausheen, because she was so very kind and very serious to explain to me the meaning of Islam. So, after lasting also a month, it produced an additional 63 postings.

 A summary of all the relevant substances, hoping to get as close as possible of what have been commented and meant follows in the next posting. It is a gigantic effort to grasp the real meaning of what has been said, so forgive me if it is not actually meant as described. Well, the more reason to correct me ......

I threw in the question on the origins of the Qur'an  as follows:

Hi, I'm a Christian, but have also read the Qur'an,even though only part of it.
        When I read the elucidations on the origin of the Qur'an, they say that the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet by God.
        But when I compare its contents with the Bible, then most of them are the same, the figures, the events, etc.
      But why then have the stories on Moses, Noah, Abraham, David, Jesus etc. been well known to the Meditteranean world already for 600 years already, before the Islam? And, even, the Old Testament stories some hundreds years more?

Or, how should one regard this problem correctly?

Thank you,
Tom.-

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But apart from the substances that were previously discussed, [next posting,] which I hope you give further comments to,  I would like submit the following question as a starter for The Qur'an II :

1.  Is there a story that the Qur'an is telling us ? What is the nucleus that can be described of the Qur'an? Is there a certain "big picture" that we can see? If we see a tree from a distance, then we can recognise a pine tree, a apple tree, etc. with their distinct trunks, branches, leaves etc. Is there a "big picture with a distinct story" visible of the Qur'an ?

I am asking this because in the Bible you can discern the great structure of the Bible tree, there is a clear, visible story:

The Old Testament :  creation of man, stubborness of man, forgetting his Creator, sin and downfall of man, God's eternal love, His promise to save mankind through Jesus Christ through the prophets [prophecies].

New Testament:  Jesus Christ's birth, His salvation through the cross, resurrection, ascension to Heaven, and prophecy of Jesus' second coming and judgement of man by Him.

I have tried to grasp the great outlines of the Qur'an but failed.

Only one statement that was repeatedly made by my Moslem commentators that seems to be relevant : that the Qur'an is a "correction" or  "amendment" to what God has spoken through the Scriptures before.

But, but but, does this mean that the "original" word of God is in the Scriptures/Bible/Torah, and that the Qur'an just rectified its "authentic" sources ? And what exactly has been rectified? And what of the "authentic" substances are not corrected, and are still valid? Jesus Christ's judgement on judgement day?                                   

 Is there anyone who can help me out?

Thanks a lot.

Tom.-

Here is a very brief summary what has gone in 'The Qur'an' and 'To Thomas'  before :

1. There were practically no direct answers to my question; the only close comments were that of David Clark and Servetus, both non-Moslems ......, on the authencity of God's word in the Qur'an, both pasted below.

If the same author writes a new book on a subject
he has previously written on it is no less original.

DavidC

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and Servetus's [cropped] :

 "In my opinion, when something is revealed, it is original, even if it is a repeat. Prophets, I have noticed, tend often to repeat themselves and each other."

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I got no confirmation or direct response, neither rejecting nor approving, on :

1.  Whether God has revealed the stories, His word, through several people, in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, and through only one person, the Prophet, in the Qur'an. And that it is God's privilege whom to chooses to convey His Word.

2.   When the Qur'an is correcting the Scriptures, Bible/Torah, as was explained by several, then which was corrected, would be the original, authentic source ? And of course, the corrections are authentic, comes from an authentic source, God, through the Prophet?

3.  And, where is point 2 above explicitly stated in the Qur'an? Or just only implicitly?

4.   Then, if the Qur'an is rectifying the Scriptures, then the Qur'an is Scripture based, as some verses in the Qur'an indicate, "confirming" the Scriptures. Then, after the necessary corrections, what is then left, remained of the original source [= the Scriptures] ?

As usual, most of the commentators, wandered off ....... far off .... drifting to the Bible instead keeping with the Qur'an, and also explained to me the fundamentals of Islam. Well, the matter touched upon will later on, inevitably, I'm sure, emerge in the subsequent discussions.

Thanks,

Tom.-

Hi everybody,

Well,  in "To Thomas" I already posed the question whether there is a "big picture" visible of the Qur'an, just as of the Bible, and then got this response from Salmaan, who drifting away, unintentionally made the comments that are responsive. [I paste the entire posting below, the relevant part is in red, final part]

My question is : is the picture that is depicted here more or less the "big picture" of the Qur'an  ? My comments are in blue]

Tom,

>That's still the problem I'm wrestling >with. If God's word will be of equal
>weight to some persons to whom He has >revealed His word, would then His word
>through the Prophet be equal to those >revealed before the Prophet?

The message revealed to the messengers before Muhammad (sas), were specific to their ppl/nation. eg: Message of Moses and Jesus for the children of Israel and the Message of Noah and Lot for their respective ppl. However the Message of Muhammad (sas), the Qur'aan, was for all nations, a universal message for everyone until the day of Judgement.

>>The Qur'aan is based on the >>revealed words of Allah and
>>not on anything else. Unlike >>the bible, it is one book with >>one author, Allah.
>>
>Here again, you have been misled about >the Bible. I mean, it is true that there
>are lots of reporters, but they all >conveyed the Word of God. Only one >source.

Am I mislead? Not according to the revisors of the RSV Bible, who                

say that some of the authors are UNKNOWN? They say that the author of SAMUEL is "UNKNOWN" and that of CHRONICLES is "UNKOWN"!

Now how can u say that one was conveyed the word of God and he is "Unknown". Why is half of the New Testament written by a man who never even met Jesus in his lifetime? PAUL claims to have seen a vision of Jesus to justify that he had met Jesus, while on his way from Jerusalem to Damascus!

>And here again we stumble upon the fact >that several reporters have conveyed the OT
>stories, whereas as you stated above, >there is only one author of the stories
>in the Qur'an which are similar to those >of the OT.

As I've said many times before, we do not say that the whole of OT or NT is corrupted by man. There are still a few passages which have not been altered, since the Torah and Injeel were revealed (from one source, Allah) and ,these were re-confirmed by the final revelation, Al-Qur'aan, from the same one source, Allah.

>>My point was to emphasis that >>Muhammad (sas) was not the
>>author of the Qur'aan (it was >>Allah) and also to clarify
>>that the Qur'aan is not based >>on any previous sources,
>>rather it confirms those >>scripture before its time, >>like the Bible
>>
>
>I'm afraid I have to really to crack my >mind to understand what you mean by it.

>You mean that the authenticity is not >with the Qur'an since it is only a >confirmation?

I didn't say it is 'only a confirmation' but it is the 'criterion' (Al-Furqan, another name of Qur'aan) for mankind to attain salvation.

Let's review what we've discussed so far:

Allah, out of His abundant Love and Mercy for mankind has not left us in darkness to discover the right path by trial and error alone. Coupled with our intellectual capability to reason, our Creator bestowed upon us Divine Guidance that outlines the criterion for truth, knowledge, as well as the reality of our existence in this world and the Hereafter.

From the beginning of mankind, our Creator sent Prophets to convey His revelation and to invite human beings to the path of true peace and obedience to the One True God. This is Islam. This message is conveyed towards successive generations of man through the different prophets, all inviting mankind to the same path. However all the earlier messages or revelations from God were distorted by people of later generations.

As a result of this distortion, pure Revelation from our Creator was adulterated and polluted with myths, superstitions, idol worship and irrational philosophical ideologies. The religion of God in a sense was lost in a plethora of religions. Human history is a testament of man's drift between light and darkness, but God out of His abundant love for mankind has not forsaken us.

When mankind was in the depths of the Dark Ages, our Creator sent His final Messenger, Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu �alaihi wa sallam) to redeem humanity with the final revelation which represents the ultimate and permanent source of guidance for the whole world.

"He (All�h) has ordained for you the same religion (Isl�m) which He ordained for N�h (Noah), and that which We have inspired in you (O Muhammad (sas), and that which We ordained for Ibrah�m (Abraham), M�s� (Moses) and `�s� (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion). Intolerable for the Mushrik�n [polytheists, pagans, idolaters, etc.], is that to which you (O Muhammad (sas) call them. All�h chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance and in obedience." (Qur'an 42:13)


was'salaam
Salmaan

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Thanks,

Tom.-

Still nobody who may give another answer to my question why the Koran contains stories, figures etc that were already known in the world for some 680 years and more than 1000 years, especially the OT stories.

Copied ? No, of course, say all Moslem participants. But still equally authentic as the Bible ? Yes, according to David and Servetus. The Koran is correcting the Bible explain all Moslem commentators. Is that so, I asked, if so then WHAT has been corrected and WHAT HAS NOT BEEN CORRECTED ?

Has Jesus as a son of God been corrected? By which verses in the Quran?

Has Jesus been corrected as the Judge at the end of days, as the Bible says ?

Well, I hope to have answers soon.

Thanks.

Tom.-

well as muhammad is a muslim, so does Jesus is a muslim all the way to Adam. the religion is one. so it's no surprise anyway the Quran to reveal the stories of the prophets. plus, the Quran does truthfully states future happening, i.e. the Roman. "Within 3 to 9 years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with Allah, (before the defeat of Romans by the Persians, and after, i.e. the defeat of the Persians by the Romans). And on that Day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by All�h to the Romans against the Persians) [30:4]

that's just one example.

Has Jesus as a son of God been corrected? By which verses in the Quran?

just read surah 19 about Maryam (Mary) & Isa (Jesus). Jesus is a human prophet, simply like any other prophets. Allah created him like how Allah created Adam. "It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is" [19:35]

and the Quran reinforces the believe of One & Only God, the same One & Only God believed by Abraham, & rejects polytheism, rejects any son of god. "They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Jesus: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them." [5:72-73]

i learn Prophet Muhammad, on his first revelation, he was so frightened he covered himself with blanket & shivered. thus his wife Khadija refered to a Christian scholar to confirm his stories. plus the Quran even states "So if you (O Muhammad ) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taur�t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it) ." [10:94]

to bring monotheism during a time when ppl are polytheists, he was called crazy etc. people hated him so much they want to kill him. so why is Muhammad doing this? because it's the truth. & when i see the victory as recorded by history, i believe he does bring the truth. & the truth will always prevail no matter what.

if you have read the Quran, you just know it. a lot of times when i read the Quran & i ask questions. Praise to Allah, the Quran answered it in no time! as if it's written to answer my questions. & it does answers all my questions. it happens a lot, & i must say that Quran is indeed a miracle.

 Hi Firewall, Thanks for your extensive comments. Let me study them carefully first, before giving you further response.

And I'm mighty glad, there is now a Malaysian Moslem participating in the discussions.I've visited your country many times and am truly amazed how your country as an Islamic state has regulated a society with coexisting faiths so peacefully

I just want to ask you a favour : what are your answers and comments on several questions that I've raised in the topic: Islamic State ? With special regard to your country, which I have mentioned several times in my postings ?

Thanks,

Tom.

Firewall:

From the extensive and intensive explanations I understand that Islam means "a way of life", man's submission to one God, so that anybody who submits himself to the one and only God, regardless of his faith, is a Muslim? Plse correct me if I'm wrong.

Once again: because I submits myself to one God, and I am thus a Muslim, does my Christian faith still adheres to me? Am I subject to my Christian beliefs even I am a Moslem? I think it very unlikely that a Christian can be called a Muslim if he still believes in the Christian faith, except in the sense of "a way of life".

I assume that you mean that Jesus is a Muslim, but without regard  with what he is preaching? That he is just a human being? In other words:in the context of the Islamic view?

It would certainly more complicated, I'm sure, if you listens what Jesus is saying about himself. Not just what you quoted above, not, that 's not enough. But ALL, EVERYTHING that is written in the New Testament. You just cannot ignore what is written beside what you've quoted above, to really understand it.

On your comments that Jesus not being God's Son, and on the Trinity concept:

Why isn't it possible that God would begot a son of a human being, an earthly woman?

Because the Qur'an says so? I personally believe that God is All Powerful, All Knowing and that he, being God, can create whatever event he wishes, any event beyond our capacity to understand, including begetting Jesus through Maryam.

Also: why isn't it possible that God manifests himself in the trinity?

Why can't God with his unlimited powers, express himself in a Trinity, that we human beings cannot understand?

With this statement I must remind you that the Christian concept of Trinity, is not that there are 3 Gods, that is always concluded by other faiths, inclusive Islam [that I think is more caused by incomplete data by those who think that.] No, from the Old Testament on to the end of the New Testament there such a vast amount of material that declares, and by God himself, that there is only one God.

So, to understand that, it would be better to study the Bible thoroughly instead just basing such divine concepts from certain, uncomplete verses of the Bible.

And it would be better that to refrain from speaking for other faiths, let us just speak for our own faiths, in order to have a fruitful discussion.

And, it surely, certainly is blasphemy if one would say that the Christian God consists of 3 persons, 3 Gods, because Christianity itself does not preach 3 gods ...... Just only one.

So, a verse referring that the Christianity believes in 3 gods is totally irrelevant and incompatible, just way out what Christianity preaches !

I think the non-Christians should really listen to what Christianity is saying !

Returning to the thread:  What does the verse you quoted exactly mean about the orah and the Injeel? I really hope your explanation !

"So if you (O Muhammad ) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taur�t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it) ." [10:94]

Thank you.

Tom.-

Firewall :  ...to me, yes it's impossible that God manifests himself in trinity. bcoz that manifestation simply weakens God. as muslim, i believe Allah is the All Mighty,The Most Great. the trinity makes that the complete opposite. if jesus is born, thus he was once weak as an infant. why would the All Mighty God manifests Himself as weak? why would the Creator manifests Himself as the created? ...

Impossible for God to manifest himself in another form of existence? Is it because God has not the powers to do so, or because it is unthinkable, unimaginable, absurd, inconceivable to the human mind?

Or, is it only because the Qur'an says so?

I would say, apart what whoever says so, using the logic that is bestowed on the human mind, that it would be quite easy for God to that. Just as you mentioned, on Adam ... He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was." [3:59]

Why wouldn't He beget a son through Mary and why does he manifest himself in 3 forms in the Trinity ?

You can find all the reasons in the Bible, why. That there is a reason.

Personally, and my statement is not based on the Bible, but just based on our modern, far advanced knowledge today, perhaps God thought it the best way of communication to explain his appearance as Jesus Christ as a basis for salvation for the human race. To have the best effects .... It is just a personal inference.

Trinity is not a Biblical term, but is a concept based on the Bible, what is implicit in all what has been written and declared in both testaments. You will find all the verses you need to understand the Trinity term in the Bible.

Having arrived at this, I just want to comment on your response to my statement not to speak for our faiths that ...the verses i shared was simply stated by the Quran ... is quite understandable, but not quite sufficient. I mean that you have to read the Bible yourself, ALL OF IT AND NOT PARTIAL, not only a few verses, to better understand the teachings of the Bible. If you don't read all the interconnecting parts that depicts the whole picture, the complete substance, you get easily misled. Of course you don't speak for our faith, but it seems to me that Islam wants to speak for Christianity?

Isn't it better that we, apart from knowing our respective holy books, but then also listen to what the oher books is saying? That is why I always try to listen to what you, and other Moslem friends, want to say, and the relevant verses in the Qur'an.

And, returning to our thread,  1] I read the verses in the Qur'an that Yesus will judge all men at judgement day. This is a very fundamental prophecy for us, Christians. Has thisbeen rectified or amended by the Qur'an? And how should one understand exactly the reference in the Qur'an?

2] In my topic "islamic State" I posed the question whether the Qur'an strictly forbid a Moslem to change to another faith, and, as I was told by a friend, that this rule is in force in Malaysia? Is this true? And if so, where can I find the verses in the Qur'an?

Thanks,

Tom.-
 

Firewall : once again : first, read the whole, the entire background of Trinity, and then make your opinion. Second, it is unthinkable, yes? Of course it is unthinkable, ununderstandable, beyond our human mind ! That it is why it's divine!

Our human mind is limited to our logic, to what our human can understand. If we can understand something, and accept something with our logic, then it is a human creation. As soon it goes beyod our logic, then we reject it as impossible ... But the perception of a Divine Being, a Super Being, is not limited to our human mind! God has created Adam out of dust, thus say the Qur'an and the Bible. We can understand this only when we ascribe the Super Divine Powers to the Super Being, God. He is quite capable to do non-logic things. The Trinity concept and God as a human being in Yesus, is FAR, VERY FAR BEYOND OUR HUMAN LOGIC AND UNDERSTANDING. But isn't it possible for God?

You know the example of the goldfish in our aquarium? When we, humans, feed them, then it is a miracle how food can just fall in the water like that. This is what the fish will think, if it can think. Usually it has to seek food between the reefs or weed. But it is possible and very real and actual : we human have superior brain than the fish ...

Just read the Bible yourself Firewall. Then you can, I'm sure, better understand our, Islam and Christian God. Perhaps, after reading the contents of the Bible, which are also God's OWN WORDS, you will understand it, but not accept it. Well, that's another matter.

I find the relationship of God's word in the Qur'an and the Bible very, very interesting, and just try to sort it out.

My initial questions are still very relevant I think, in solving this big, gigantic puzzle: on the origins of the Qur'an,its authenticity and what exactly the Qur'an rectifiyng the contents of the Scriptures/Torah+Bible, and what is exactly remaining of the Scriptures after rectification by the Qur'an?

Again : is f.i. what still holds of the Scriptures that Yesus will be the one who will judge man at judgment day?

Thanks,

Tom.-

It seems this a superfluous topic... Everybody already commenting in other topics.

Nobody endeavour helping me with answering my questions above?

Tom.-

Sakeranwar:

To have a meaningful and fruitful discussion, I propose that we refrain from attacking each other faiths, because that indicates that we just close ourselves from listening what the other faith has to say. Also, that we refrain from speaking for the other's faith, because usually we use our own faith to judge the other faith.

If we cannot do what I proposed above, then I'm not inclined to continue the discussions, because then we will be talking past each other and not to each other.

For instance : you stated that  "..... according to Islam, all other religions are false and are rejected ....".

Surely, I can understand that Islam says so. But Christianity -- and Yudaism, I presume, I'm not a Jew -

- I'm a Christian -- says that as well.

And, I hope you can accept this: I think both faiths have the full right to claim that.  And, both faiths must have their respective reasons to be able to claim that.

Yes, both faiths say : my faith is the true religion because it is based on the word of God. God himself have conveyed his messages through various channels, and, in both faiths that God's messages were given by him to mankind through his various messengers.

This is why I have started this topic : the Qur'an, and started the question: 

 How is that most of the people, figures, stories in the Qur'an are similar to those in the Bible ? And that those stories are already known in the then Mediteranean world for more than 600 years before Islam was born?

I put up this question already 3 years ago, but from the subsequent discussions, there was no clear answer.

If we can have some picture, some idea, even vaguely,  of what is the relationship, the connection

between the Bible and the Qur'an, then we may have a better understanding of our faiths, and move closer to each other. The gap between both faiths at present can, hopefully, be narrowed, and then bridged one day. 

Thanks.-

Tom.-

Other comments follow.

Thomas are you trying to say the Quran is wonderful?

The only things in the Quran I feel are not acceptable today is the cutting off the hands of thieves, stoning people or whipping them and where it says a man may chastize his wife with a stick no bigger than his thumb.

I have read most of Quran and it is indeed a wonderful Book.

However it is not the last book and in terms of literary and spiritual value I think there are hundreds of thousands of books out there that are just as important in terms of teaching people Spiritual values.

Islam is always evolving and all religion and even the lack of it is an expression of the evolution of Islam and the evolution of Mankinds Spiritual Frame work.

As I see it Islam is a evolving process that all Mankind is in and therefore we are all Muslim Brothers and Sisters regardless of our religion as all religion is an expression as I said of the evolution of Islam.

I will say that the Quran is an interesting Book however Islam is not contained in a book or a single person, Islam is contained and expressed in every aspect of life itself.

Life is always in a state of Islam and We are all Muslim People.

Salam Alaikoam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Es_Selam'un Aleykum Sister Amlalhabibi,

Sister please more concentrate on Qur'an then take the last decision...before being an ancient sycamore it is not good on giving individual fatwas...just keep on walking...leave the rest...after an time you will see the difference...insh'Allah...

Alaikoam Salam

Brother why can we not give a Fatwa of our own?

Thomas, I was reading the page one and would like to comment.

Why is trinity impossible in case of God?Cant Allah do anything and evrything?The answer is , NO.Nowhere in the quran Allah tell us that he can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.Rather Allah says "HE has the POWER over evrything".

So if He has the power over everything, why cant he take the form of Human?To understand this, let us look at the foolowing verses of Quran.

Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

4. And there is none like unto Him.

Amlhabibie :  well, when I read the Qur'an -- in English -- it is truly beautifully phrased, its prose is really a relish for the eyes and mind and heart.

But then about the substance of the Qur'an, as you may have noticed, there seems to be many verses that allow violence, coercion, force, etc.  on non-Moslems, especially in Moslem-states.  And referring to so many examples of terror and violence which various Moslem factions exercise justifying their actions based on Qur'anic verses, the how should a Moslem really understand Islam?

Jihad, attacks and desctruction of churches -- in my country well over 400 churches have been burned and closed during the past ten years.

From various from participants in this Interfaith dialog, I can summarize that there are both hostile and and peace-declaring verses, so WHAT EXACTLY IS TRUE, the hostile or the peace-expounding verses?  No answer on this question yet.

A paper on Islamic views says : that violence and coercion and force is NOT the nature of ISLAM, and that these violence inducing verses are "situational" verses, that only apply to certain situations during the Prophet's time.

So is the conclusion then that the present hostility and terror by the Islamic militant groups towards non-Moslems based on misinterpretation of the Qur'anic verses by those groups?

Dayem :  thanks for your response. I have to repeat inshort what I wanted to say in my afore-postings : I raised the question why God - the one and only - as a, what we believe and are convinced of, Super-Supernatural Being, could not have Superantural Powers to express himself in 3 "existencies", beyond the grasp of our human mind and logic? And just because we have the ability to think, to reason -- only humans can do it, other loving things, definitely cannot -- exatcly because we can do that we know that there is a God and a God with infinitely powers to create and to do anything what He wants, and ; BEYOND THE LIMITS OFTHE HUMAN MIND.

In short : if we cannot grasp something, then it is impossible for God --- like Trinity ..... I don't think so.

Just as you mentioned "...... He has the Power over everything .... " Why can't he take the form of a human? You quoted the verses of the Qur'an -- with many thanks.

The Christians say : He can: Yesus Christ. Is it a human invention? NO, BECAUSE GOD IN THE BIBLE SAYS THAT OF HIMSELF !!

Please, please, please, sister/brother Dayem : I did not claim He is 3, as you stated. No, Christianity believes just in One and Only God, as Islam does. And why do Christians believe in the One and Only God ? BECAUSE GOD HIMSELF SAID SO, IN THE BIBLE.

And your example of frozen water/ice, water-liquid or water vapour is a very, very good example. IT REMAINS H2O and THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE TELLS US.

If you are told that Christians believe that God is 3 then you are totally misled.

So now I can confirm, very very firmly, and definitely to you that the Christian God is One, and Only One, like H20 .-

When Christ ate food, so what's wrong with that? On other occasions he walked on water and healed people and raised Lazarus from the dead ....

I hope I have quided you to the right perception of God in Christianity. If I haven't, then I would strongly recommend that you read the Bible -- ALL THE RELEVANT PARTS on God's Oneness, or listen to what a Christian scholar explains to you on that matter. And please LISTEN, LISTEN. If you don't listen and shut yourself up within your own walls of Islam, then it is very difficult to carry out meaningful and fruitful discussions on both our faiths.

Apart from all, I'm  really happy that you made comments.

Tom.-

PS:  What do you think of the fact that most stories and people and events in the Qur'an have already been known in the Mediterranean world for some 600 years? Before the Prophet was born? So they are not original?

Brother Thomas

I think believe your question will be answered if you read the thread, the Renewal of Islam

or you may read articles I have written on this subject at the following url.

http://groups.msn.com/TheRenewalofIslam/_whatsnew.msnw - http://groups.msn.com/TheRenewalofIslam/_whatsnew.msnw

It is in part for some of the reasons you mentioned that I was inspired to write and share the articles I wrote in hopes of encouraging positive change amongst all peoples.

I may not be able to change the world however at least I can try and at least might efforts have chnaged me so if nothing else I have accomplished something.

Brother Thomas

I think believe your question will be answered if you read the thread, the Renewal of Islam

or you may read articles I have written on this subject at the following url.

http://groups.msn.com/TheRenewalofIslam/_whatsnew.msnw - http://groups.msn.com/TheRenewalofIslam/_whatsnew.msnw

There are many reasons why I was inspired to write and share the articles I wrote.

It is my hope to encouraging positive change amongst all peoples.

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Hi Thomas

To have a meaningful and fruitful discussion, I propose that we refrain from attacking each other faiths, because that indicates that we just close ourselves from listening what the other faith has to say. Also, that we refrain from speaking for the other's faith, because usually we use our own faith to judge the other faith. If we cannot do what I proposed above, then I'm not inclined to continue the discussions, because then we will be talking past each other and not to each other. For instance : you stated that  "..... according to Islam, all other religions are false and are rejected ....". Surely, I can understand that Islam says so. But Christianity -- and Yudaism, I presume, I'm not a Jew - - I'm a Christian -- says that as well.

My earlier post to you no way constitutes an attack on your faith. I simply stated  how Islam views of other religions! It was not an attack. You have asked for  information on Islam and I gave you the information. I have told you before that, according to Islam, mankind has only one Creator and He ordained for the mankind only one religion to follow. This religion is the natural religion of Isl�mic Monotheism (i.e. Allah's Fitra - worship none but All�h Alone). And our Creator has instilled this natural belief into our hearts when He created us. Allah tells us in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

And, I hope you can accept this: I think both faiths have the full right to claim that.  And, both faiths must have their respective reasons to be able to claim that. Yes, both faiths say : my faith is the true religion because it is based on the word of God. God himself have conveyed his messages through various channels, and, in both faiths that God's messages were given by him to mankind through his various messengers.

Yes, of course you have the right to claim whatever you want to claim. The import question however is whether your claim is right or wrong. This is what you need to find out first. How can you find it out? Easy because 

Your Creator has created you with the following belief & faculties:

Belief: you worship none but your Creator Allah Alone! And you have made a covenant with your Creator on this effect before He sent you here (to try you as to whether you are a liar or a truthful one).

Moreover, He has shown you the right way and given you the natural knowledge to distinguish between the right and the wrong.

Faculties: He has equipped you with the faculties of uderstanding, hearing and seeing so that you can follow the way He has shown to you, renew & keep your covenant which you have made with Him and perform your most

important duty of worshiping Him Alone.

If you fail in your obligations & duties you will be punished in Hell. If you fulfill your obligations and duties you will be rewarded with Paradise. Your excuse of not knowing the Straight Way and your excuse of not knowing your obligations & duties to your Creator will not avail you in the Hereafter! 

This is why I have started this topic : the Qur'an, and started the question:     How is that most of the people, figures, stories in the Qur'an are similar to those in the Bible ? And that those stories are already known in the then Mediteranean world for more than 600 years before Islam was born? I put up this question already 3 years ago, but from the subsequent discussions, there was no clear answer. If we can have some picture, some idea, even vaguely,  of what is the relationship, the connection between the Bible and the Qur'an, then we may have a better understanding of our faiths, and move closer to each other. The gap between both faiths at present can, hopefully, be narrowed, and then bridged one day.

What muslims believe in regard to Bible is that it is a book written by men! The name of the original revelation which was given to Prophet Iesa, son of Maryam, is Injil (Gospel) and this does not exist any more in its true form! It has been altered /corrupted by men from time to time.

There might be few statements of Bible which are consistent with the Injil. Therefore, muslims do not reject those statements because what was written in Injil was Allah's revelation and thus will not contradict the Holy Quran! 

You should know that, as I have explained to you before, Allah's religion is one religion (Islam) which He ordained for His slaves via various Prophets (peace be upon them) from time to time. And the Holy Quran contains the confirmation of the previous Messages! Therefore, we are not surprised if some statements from your Bible (i.e. altered/corrupted Injil) are similar to the Holy Quran.

There is no question of a gap between Islam and any other religions! This is because Islam does not recognise any other religion at the first place. Therefore, question of narrowing the "gap" & "bridged" is irrevalent. If you worship Allah Alone then we are together otherwise please ponder over the following Verse from the Holy Quran:        

60:4. Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibr�him (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides All�h, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever, until you believe in All�h Alone," except the saying of Ibr�him (Abraham) to his father: "Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from All�h) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before All�h." Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return,

Regards,

Sarkeranwar

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Firewall wrote: for the sunnah, it is not a revelation, but it's the way of life of Prophet Muhammad. as Prophet Muhammad follow Al-Quran, so his lifestyle will mirror it. that's why muslims are told to follow the sunnah as well (refer Prophet's last sermon).

Assalamu Alykum Wa Rahmatullahi Barakatuh

Please note that Sunnah is revelation (wahy). Our beloved Prophet (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him) did not say anything out of his own desire but that what was inspired by Allah. Allah says in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

53:1. By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).

53:2. Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

53:3. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

53:4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired

Firewall : no problem ! I believe in what you said about Moslem being a non-violent, peace-loving faith. I am just still wondering, why there are still so many violent Moslems today. I need not mention where, you and everybody knows where.

I repeatedly mentioned the case of some hundreds of churches that were burned and destroyed in my country during the past 7 years. And just 2 weeks ago there some 10 churches besieged by some Moslem factions here. Why ? Can you answer my  question ?

I was told by some Moslem friends that there are hostile verses in the Qur'an which do not tolerate other faiths in their environment. And which are used by the militant Moslem groups to justify their terror and violence. What is your comment on this?

I am just asking for some explanations, some answers.

I am sorry if you consider my asking as an attack on Islam, and I don't feel that way. Just asking for answers on several actual, existing, current facts. And is it insulting and disrespectful if I asked something which is not clear to me?

Sakeranwar :  No, of course I understand your statement on how Islam views the other religions, so it is not an attack. My wish was just a precaution that we don't get tempted to do that in order  to have a smooth discussion.

And, to have a smooth two-way discussion, what is your comment on:

1] what if I said that Christianity is a monotheistic faith as well?

2] And that this monotheistic faith based religion has already existed for 600 years befor the Prophet Mohammad was born? This the truth.

3] That the Day of Judgement and Resurrection is also in the Bible and one of the fundaments of Christianity, which means, that the Christians are fully aware of this Day of Judghement and Resurrection, already 600 years before the Prophet?

4]  I don't think it is necessary for you to warn the Christians abot God's anger if one is trespasing his commands. It is in the Bible .... 600 years before.

I deliberately mention those 600 years, because of curiosity why the Qur'an contains stories, characters, etc. already known to Christians long before. What is the realtionship between the Qur'an and the Bible?

We, Moslems and Christians alike, certainly believe on One God, and worship the SAME GOD?

I personally believe this, and that is why I just like to know if there is a certain connection between the Qur'an and the Bible.

5]  Ha, exactly what you said:  which word of God is right and which is not right? That's why I am still wondering to what extent the same characteres and stories and moral and ethical rules and regulations in the Qur'an are original. And even it is NOT original, the source is the same, the only One God that both faiths worship, so it is authentic.

6]  If you say that Moslems believe that the Bible is written by men, that is true. Only, that it is written NOT based on those men's minds, no, the writings are based of what God has conveyed to them. Just the same as the Qur'an is conveyed to the Prophet, and he, in turn, has conveyed it to mankind.

Well, if Islam does not recognise the other religions, does it mean that a Moslem is not allowed to listen to what other religions have to say? Not even from Chrstians who believe in the same God -- assuming you agree with this opinion?

Thanks and best wishes.--

Tom.-

TOM WROTE:

Please, please, please, sister/brother Dayem : I did not claim He is 3, as you stated. No, Christianity believes just in One and Only God, as Islam does. And why do Christians believe in the One and Only God ? BECAUSE GOD HIMSELF SAID SO, IN THE BIBLE.

And your example of frozen water/ice, water-liquid or water vapour is a very, very good example. IT REMAINS H2O and THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE TELLS US.

If you are told that Christians believe that God is 3 then you are totally misled.

So now I can confirm, very very firmly, and definitely to you that the Christian God is One, and Only One, like H20 .-

When Christ ate food, so what's wrong with that? On other occasions he walked on water and healed people and raised Lazarus from the dead ....

I hope I have quided you to the right perception of God in Christianity. If I haven't, then I would strongly recommend that you read the Bible -- ALL THE RELEVANT PARTS on God's Oneness, or listen to what a Christian scholar explains to you on that matter. And please LISTEN, LISTEN. If you don't listen and shut yourself up within your own walls of Islam, then it is very difficult to carry out meaningful and fruitful discussions on both our faiths.

Apart from all, I'm  really happy that you made comments.

Tom.-

PS:  What do you think of the fact that most stories and people and events in the Qur'an have already been known in the Mediterranean world for some 600 years? Before the Prophet was born? So they are not original?

DAYEM:Firstly, I would like to apologise; I thought christian believe in 3 SUPERPOWER(God), but you say otherwise.Hmm, thats news to me, so christian afterall dont commit shirk.Cool.

But tell me, why do christian bow down be4 the Christ, ask him for ths and that?Does that not show that he was also considered God??

When Jesus(PBUH) ate food, there was islamically nothing wrong.Afterall, every human require food to survive, and he was just human.But as christian claim(DEFINATELY) that he was the son of GOd, and that,like H2O will have the same property as of God, he would not have been able to eat food.Becoz God dont require food.IF AND IF GOD EAT FOOD HE WILL CEASE TO BE GOD.

Now Jesus (PBUH) on other ocassion used to cure sick people, give life to dead, and other miracles, was because HE HAD BEEN GIVEN THE GIFT OF DOING ALL THIS BY GOD.Of myself I am unable to do anything: as the voice comes to me so I give a decision: and my decision is right because I have no desire to do what is pleasing to myself, but only what is pleasing to him who sent me.  JOHN 5:30.

I believe that the word Father has wrongly put up in Bible in place of GOD.

As you emphasise on me "TO LISTEN", i will definately, inshaallah.Me, I believe in proper analysing and reporting and all that.But let me tell u this, so far I hv watched friendly interfaith debates and each time the person representing Christianity hv lost, trust me.Of course, i hv got lots to learn, but these quiteness of these christian debater on some issue has kind of convinced me of truth.And what do u mean by relevent?I will study everything.

Reply to PS>Brother s.Anwar has already explaine the reason; that is, Bible is the (or was the) word of God and so were some others.Aint that obvious that these things will be repeated?

So wat im saying, that Quran has nothing new to add?YES.Teaching might be same but there r loads of thing, like science miracles and word repetition, etc etc.

Now here is something for U to think.Greeks are known to have lots of knowledge for there time.They believed that earth was round.True.They believed that sun revolves round the eart.Wrong.Now Quran while affiming the fact that earth was round, do not claim that earth is also the centre.So, if Muhammad(PBUH) copied all these fact , how come he didnt copied the irrelevnt portions?

Thanks for your reply-

Dayem.

PS>Im brother.

"There are signs within you; why dont you reflect?"

Too true, firewall.By the way, here is an example for u, Thomas.Say, wats generally the job of mother?'Course, it is to respect her husband and treat there children well, so that they grow up into good people.But suppose, a mother fights with her husband and dont hv a bit of care for her children, then r u going to blame that PARTICULAR mom or the motherhood?

Similarly, are u going to blame these PARTICULAR men who cause havok or there religion?For indeed, a religion dont teaches violence.NEITHER DO QURAN.

Go reflect.

Salam Alaikoam Brothers some laws to promote violence like cvutting the hands of thieves, stoning and hanging people or whipping them these are violent acts that do nothing to give the person education or training to change their ways.

These laws only succeed in giving bad people an excuse to use force to get thier jollies and revenge.

Good laws use education and training, counseling and consultation as justice.

There is hope as Islam was never and can never be fully contained in one book or even a series of books as it is always growing and evoling.

Though I have to say it seems sometimes the people of Islam regresses to cave man level.

Dayem :  you are a swell guy,! At least  I see that you listen, appreciate that very much.

1]  We Christians bow down to Christ, because He is God. And, it si not ME saying that, but he said that himself, and God himself said that Christ is himaself, the Bible says that, God's himself says that. A lot of verses in the Bible say that.

2]  Well Christ is one of the "forms" as you mentioned it yourself : of H2O, where H20 is God. And, of course he can eat food as a human does, but he can also do without food, as God. Why should we conclude that "if God ate food he will cease to be God" ?  Because God does'nt need food? But if he wants to act and to be a human being and eat food, what is wrong with that?

3]  Yes, Yesus can do miracles, just because he is God. If you say that it is GIVEN to him, that is also OK. Why should God not be able to give something to himself ? Perhaps too difficult to grasp?  Not difficult if we human beings, use our reason, our mind, our ratio, and just understand that God is the Super-Super-Super Being, and ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.  Without any limitations. Without limitations and just beyond the capapcity of our human logic. He can become a human being and eat.

4]  The word Father is mentioned in the Bible, and if you judge it wrong, here I say that you don't listen what the Bible says. That's why : just read the Bible, and, of course, most effectively, with guidance of a Christian scholar. "Father" is just being used as in our daily lives, with "Son". But : mind you, both remain H2O.

5] About PS :  I know that Islam considers to be a correction and rectification of the Bible. But, my still unanswered question : What exactly has been corrected? OK, Yesus Christ as God's son, I was explained with the relevant verses of the Qur'an. But then: what about Yesus Christ to be the Judge of us all during Judgment and Resurrection Day ?

Because Yesus as the Supreme Judge has also been mentioned in the Qur'an as I was told. Being stated in the Qur'an then it is still valid what the Bible says?

Then the logical question, on what the Qur'an says:  why ISA Al Masih is the Supreme Judge and not God himself? [Because we Christians believe that Yesus is God then for us it is just simply logic.]

6]  About mother or motherhood: very simpel : the mother is to blame. But, I still have no firm answer on whether those hostile verses really exists in the Qur'an ? I was told that those violent factions do have justification to exercise terror, but then you imply that there are no verses allowing that?

This sofar, Dayem, if there are still other questions I have not commented on just tell me.

I want to keep my posting short, reader-friendly.

Thanks.-

Tom.-

Hi Firewall:  Why many mosques has been destroyed by Americans? In war or peace ?

Well, let's not talk about about war, there is no end discussing that.

Let's stick with during peace-time. Wel my answer, based on the Bible on your questions if there mosques destroyed, is that it is totally wrong. There is no verse in the Bible that commands to destroy houses of worship and even retaliation at all! You know of course of the Chtistian command : "give the other cheek" ?

But you haven't reponded and commented  the very actual current events that there are many Islamic groups that instruct terror and violence, jihad, justifying their acts on the Qur'an?

Well, you can easily look it up in the Internet about the violence and terror towards the Christians - now still ocurring - in my country.

Amlhabibie :  Just keep the problem simpel and solve it step by step. First step : if you don't agree with violence by Islam, where is it stated in the Qur'an that violence is not permitted? If its permitted and the verses [=God's word] supprting that, then it is justified to do that by Moslems?

Thanks,best wishes.

Tom.-

Firewall : short addendum: about destroying mosques by Americans at war: from a legal point of view the United States is a secular state.

It does not have a "religious" flag. All religions are allowed. And, perhaps, among the soldiers and pilots who destroyed mosques there are Jews and Moslems as well.

This is not to defend the US -- I personally condemn fiercely the US invasion of Irak -- no, but just to have our mind setting right. And also the reason why I think it better not discuss religious aspects on matters of war.

The Bible says definitely and firmly : Don't kill. Command 6 of the 10 Commandments.

That's why it is very interesting that the Qur'an allows killing, IF IT IS TRUE ....

Tom.-

TOM:
1]  We Christians bow down to Christ, because He is God. And, it si not ME saying that, but he said that himself, and God himself said that Christ is himaself, the Bible says that, God's himself says that. A lot of verses in the Bible say that.

EARLIER POSTED BY TOM:

"No, Christianity believes just in One and Only God, as Islam does."

Arnt u contradicting urself?Any way, i will ignore it.Say tom, how come there r so many ERRORS in and CLEAR CUT CONTRADICTION in Bible?I posed this question in christian chatroom(Yahoo!'s)and was replied 'This is not original Bible as revealed by God, as it had been trasnsalted from different languages. 'I understand that becoz of this bible may contain some errors.BUT WHAT ABOUT BIG ERRORS?there r thousands of errors in Bible.How can u follow the claim of what Bible says?A book containig errors?It couldnt be the word of God now, with SO many pollution in it?  now Quran claims that this  book also contain the words of people who added lots of other thing for there personal gain!And that looks like truth.
So, if u say that letus remove the irrelevent portion, how will u know wat is true and and what not?U will need another book of God to judge the claims of Bible.And alhamdillilah, we now have another book for that purpose.......a book from God.........Guess?
Im not saying anything against bible, in school, i had one chapter from the Holy Bible and it is really cool and full of wonderful teachings.More or less, the whole thing macthes with the teaching of Quran.But alas, the whole Bible is not like that.

2]  Well Christ is one of the "forms" as you mentioned it yourself : of H2O, where H20 is God. And, of course he can eat food as a human does, but he can also do without food, as God. Why should we conclude that "if God ate food he will cease to be God" ?  Because God does'nt need food? But if he wants to act and to be a human being and eat food, what is wrong with that?

I dont know if there is any verse in Bible which says that God dont require any food, as he is above such needs, but i believe there is one verse in Holy Quran that states that God dont require food(Im not sure).Anyway I was only giving an example of food.As i hv already told u that God cannot do everything and anything, rather he has the POWER over everything.
In fact I can prepear a list of things which God cant do.
a)He cant kill himself.(Logic)
b)He cannot die(like u believe Jesus(PBUH) did, anyway thats not true)
c)Allah says in Quran,"there are none like Him".So if he cant create another God.And even if there were more than one God, how come there happens to be so much of Harmony in nature?
d)God cant tell a lie(now plz dont reply with"Ah, thats what u think".plz)
e)He cant contradict himself(agree?Then u will have to agree that Bible is not the pure word frm God)
f)He cant take the form of Human being or Jinn and act accordingly(like eating drinking, etc.)
In fact there r lots of other thing which God cant do.Reflect.
3]  Yes, Yesus can do miracles, just because he is God. If you say that it is GIVEN to him, that is also OK. Why should God not be able to give something to himself ? Perhaps too difficult to grasp?  Not difficult if we human beings, use our reason, our mind, our ratio, and just understand that God is the Super-Super-Super Being, and ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.  Without any limitations. Without limitations and just beyond the capapcity of our human logic. He can become a human being and eat.

See f) above.How did I say that?cant God take the form of human beings?Yeah maybe he can.If u insist so much on that, i will agree for the sake of argument that he can take the form of Human Beings.BUT I WONT AGREE ON THE STATEMENT THAT HE CAN EVEN LIVE THE LIFE LIKE HUMANS.Why?God cant eat and drink and go to bathroom like humans.U say that it is beyond the human logic to imagine that but it is possible.Thomas, lemme remind u that u r arguing with HUMANS and we people use only that much logic as has been provided by Almighty.Why, if I use my wild  Imagination, I can say that God can even lie.GOD LIEING????Impossible.But now I say that " Perhaps too difficult to grasp?  Not difficult if we human beings, use our reason, our mind, our ratio, and just understand that God is the Super-Super-Super Being, and ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.  Without any limitations. Without limitations and just beyond the capapcity of our human logic. He can become a human being and eat.& lie. and what not".But no, we muslim have faith and it is faith which gives us trust.
I gv u this example.I invent a t.v then to correct it I dont hv to become a t.v set.Remember?

4]  The word Father is mentioned in the Bible, and if you judge it wrong, here I say that you don't listen what the Bible says. That's why : just read the Bible, and, of course, most effectively, with guidance of a Christian scholar. "Father" is just being used as in our daily lives, with "Son". But : mind you, both remain H2O.

I agree.Though i havnt read Bible, even if i will, I will have Quran with me so that i can check regulerly the fact of matter.And no, I dont need any christian scholar breathing on my neck as i read bible.Reason?because these people r already christian, that is, they already believe in abook with lots of error as the book of God.I must say I wont be able to trust them and their ideas.
If, for a hundredth time,ther property were not  to change, then the "son" would not have lived the life like human.

5] About PS :  I know that Islam considers to be a correction and rectification of the Bible. But, my still unanswered question : What exactly has been corrected? OK, Yesus Christ as God's son, I was explained with the relevant verses of the Qur'an. But then: what about Yesus Christ to be the Judge of us all during Judgment and Resurrection Day ?

There u go.Honest, hv u read Quran?What exactly u think quran is:a corrected bible?In many a way it is.But it has other things also, not only about past and all that.Did u expected that Quran will point each and every error of bible, mark it with red pen and correct it?
Anyway,Jesus (PBUH) is not the son of God is mentioned in the quran  , and, applying common sense, if he was not the son of God, he was a human.When Allah(swt) clarified this, do u honestly think that there was any need left to state that Jesus(PBUH) a prophet, will judge the whole humanity??

For eg., I am suppose the chairman of a firm.My job includes giving salary to employees.Now there is a rumour around that a certain Mr.Roy is the new chairman and he will give salaries.I squash this rumour by giving a written statement with the firms trademark singh that i am the chairman and Mr.Roy is only a clerk.Need I specify that Mr.Roy will be the salay giver?No.It is understood that Mr.Roy is only a clerk and the job of clerk is simply different.
It will be almighty Allah who will judge u and me and everyone in this wide world.You are warned, beaware.

Because Yesus as the Supreme Judge has also been mentioned in the Qur'an as I was told. Being stated in the Qur'an then it is still valid what the Bible says?

On the day of judgement Jesus (PBUH) will be brought forward and Allah will ask him why he told the people a lie, by claiming he was God?To which Jesus(PBUH) will reply that he never said that and You know it.
This much i am aware.I dont hv any knowledege as Jesus being the Supreme judge.Can u plz give me the surah and ayat no.?

Then the logical question, on what the Qur'an says:  why ISA Al Masih is the Supreme Judge and not God himself? [Because we Christians believe that Yesus is God then for us it is just simply logic.]

 First confirm ur statement(that Jesus(PBUH) will Judge us by giving refrenc plz.I dont hv god memory, but as far as i know, I hvnt come across this verse in which Jesus(PBUH) is said to be the Judge.

6]  About mother or motherhood: very simpel : the mother is to blame. But, I still have no firm answer on whether those hostile verses really exists in the Qur'an ? I was told that those violent factions do have justification to exercise terror, but then you imply that there are no verses allowing that?

No, the claim is utterly wrong.You ask me where u hv problem(and plz give refrence no.).If u want u can search on the internet.There r lots of sites which accuses islam of this and that..........lots of lie , ridiculus and absurd claims.................

This sofar, Dayem, if there are still other questions I have not commented on just tell me.
Thanx Tom, ur answer was very good and u had tackled everything I wrote be4.

I want to keep my posting short, reader-friendly.

Thats nice.But here is a advice before u reply:Jesus(PBUH) said,"Why do u see the speck in that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log that is in your eye?Or how can u say,"let me take the speck out of your eye", when there is log in your own eye?"
So plz look at ur own religion before commenting on mine.
Thanks.-
U r most welcomed,
Tom.-
Dayem.
PS>Why do u call Jesus(PBUH) as Yesus?

To Dayem, and everybody,

The verses on Jesus coming and becoming the Judge that I read were not in the Qur'an but in the hadiths. The hadits were quoted in a document by a Christian scholar on Islam, about Jesus in the Qur'an. [ When I looked for them  in my native language Hadiths [3 volumes] I could not find them, because the reference numbers didn't check. I have to look for them again. And perhaps you can guide me in how I have to read the reference numbers and then look up them up? ]

Nevertheless, I will just quote them here:

1] Hadith from Musnad Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, book 2: 240, 411 : " Soon will come down to you the Son of Mary as the leading Priest and righteous Judge."

2]  Hadith from Muslim Book 1 page 76 : " By God, truly the Son of Mary will descend as the righteous Judge."

It seems to me that these hadiths confirm the Bible that Jesus will come as the Judge, the righteous Judge. I cannot read from those 2 hadiths above whether Jesus's coming to become the righteous Judge is in the context of Judgement Day. The implication is yes, I think,  because Jesus is dead already and resurrected by the time the hadiths were written. So it is at his second coming that he will descend and be the righteous Judge.

Am I right ? Please correct me if my reasoning and understanding is wrong.

Thanks.

Tom.-

Dayem : You see I'm learning and getting more knowledgable about the Qur'an ! More questions on your very interesting comments:

1] Will you be so kind to quote the verses that tell about Jesus' coming and defeat Dajjal? Is there a certain time frame mentioned, or, the signs of his coming?

2]  Who will judge mankind on Judgement Day, if not Jesus. God himself? Again, the verses telling us this?

3] You stated that " .... Jesus [PBUH] was taken to the 7th heaven [or sky???] ... ", where is this stated in the Qur'an and, does it mean that Jesus was resurrected from the dead?

I have read some verses in the Qur'an stating that God will resurrect Jesus from the dead but I cannot find when. Because Jesus just died as we humans do?

Is there a purpose explained in the Qur'an why Jesus was resurrected from the dead?

Thanks, best wishes.

Tom.

PS are you a student?

Firewall: [ Sister Firewall I presume ? :] thanks so much for your really lovely comments, and verses.

First of all, please don't misunderstand me. It is NOT my intention at all to strike you, or attack you, or Islam, or do whatever unsensible actions. If I did make that impression, I apologise.

What I felt I did was just asking questions, which you may perhaps have the answers to. If you don't have them, that is also OK. I will understand that. I just want to understand Islam better.

Returning to our discussion:  Yes I did say that Islamic groups do and did strike churches in my country. It is just a reality that I was trying to understand why.

But if you say that I signify the Muslim community as violent, no, Not the whole Islamic community, but only a fraction. I think that is just true, the facts speak for themselves. But that does not mean that I signify that Islam is violent ! No, not at all !

Because of the factual violence and terror that certain Islamic groups exercise, I just wanted to know why? Especially when they -- these Islamic groups -- justify their actions on the Qur'an. Are they right in their views and reasoning and justification? As I told the forum in my postings, until today, in my country there are still many hostile actions from some violent Islamic groups, and many churches are currently besieged and closed forcibly. Now one congregation of which their church building is closed, is holding their worship services in the street .......

My personal view until now, and certainly forever, is that a good religion, cannot be based on violence. A good religion is one which is based on LOVE. And thatswhy I consider Islam as a good religion based on Abraham, and commanded by God himself. Even the same God that I know from the Bible, and who is a God of Love.

This fundament for a religion, Islam in this case, as a religion of Love should be found in the Qur'an,

 I think.

And if my logical thinking is right, if the same God reveals his messages to different peoples, why should there be differences, FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCES ? I'm now just trying to find out.

Thatswhy I hope to get some answers from you, and other Moslem friends.

Best wishes. And please don't be too pessimistic. Our God will solve this enmity between us humans.

Best wishes.-

Tom.-

One thing everyone must remember is that even though things are written in a book it is not written in stone and as such everything can evolve and change.

Islam is always evolving and in a constant state of flux.

Just because there are some laws in a religious texts does not mean we cannot be as forgiving as Allah, God , The Creator and seek better ways to express justice.

True justice is Education, Counseling, Consultation with prayer and living prayer along with Hajj (Pilgrimage) made to all levels of our levels seeing where we need assistanc ewith challenges and where we can be of assistance to ourselves, our families, friends, community and Nation, this is an Inter Faith Call to Jihad, (Jihad means struggle and the first level is self).  

Firewall :  I love you truly! You are terrific! Excellent! Superb! Because you have just quoted the verse that I was searching for : the verse that states that the Christian God and the Muslim God are the same !!

Now I am closer to my goal : to find a relation, a connection,  between the Qur'an and the Bible ! And that verse did that ! So my rationale that it is the same God speaks to the Christians and Moslems, has been confirmed by the Qur'an, which is, after all, God's word itself.

I knew I will not find it in the Bible, because God's word in the Bible preceded God's word in the Qur'an !

So I think it is becoming more clear now that the tree of Christianity and the tree of Islam  has the same main trunk; the leaves [= daily rule and regulations] are mostly all the same, as we know already. The 2 main branches are apparently Christianity and Islam.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart !

Now here I have some other questions. Intended also for any one else reading this. In the following Qur'anic verses [which I am not quoting here to keep the psoting short]  from a translation by Moh . M.Picktall, the word 'Spirit" and "our Spirit" is mentioned.

Verses : 2:87 ; 2:253 ; 5:110 ; 17: 85 ; 21:91. [There must be more verses, I haven't read them yet.]

From my own logic and from the context of the verses, I conclude that what is meant is 'God's Spirit' ? Am I correct?

If I am correct, then Islam does recognise the manifestation of God in his Spirit ? In other words the "duality" of God's being ?

If I am wrong, how should we understand the words "Spirit" and "our Spirit" exactly?

Best wishes,

Tom.--

Firewall:  You are truly good! Thanks for your clarifications on the meaning of "holy Spirit" in those verses. So in those verses in the Qur'an that I quoted "holy Spirit" is meant the angel Gabriel.  But, is it explicitly stated in other verses in the Qur'an, or is it just implicitly understood?

And, I must correct the impression that I made with using the term "duality" - which in fact in my posting I have already put between quotations marks.  No I didn't mean to describe that God is 2. No, I was thinking in our Biblical terms, where "Holy Spirit" means the Spirit of God, also termed the "Holy Ghost", and one of the functions of the Trinity, but God is One. And I have always understood that Islam believes just in One God.

Quoting you:  " I find it nice you're looking into a connection between the religions. for muslims, we believe it already. it's the basic of our faith.", I was a little puzzled. What do you mean exactly by it?

And, I appreciate your comments very much, but cannot follow the thread of it. I know that the basic of your faith is One God. So we XChristians believe in One and Only God. Do you perhaps have the opinion that we Christians in 3 Gods? That the Trinity we believe in is 3 gods? No, we believe only in One God, already 600 years before the Prophet was born, and since Adam -- some several thousand years in addition.

In this connection and the references of Dr M Hilali that you quoted, my comments are:

The verses quoted of the book of John on the coming Counselor and Comforter, must be read in its whole context, and not only partially. So you have to read John 14: 15 to 20[not only 15 and 16]; and John 15 : 26-27 and John 16: 5-8 and John 16: 12-14 in the context of the whole chapter John 16. If you don't,  then you will easily get misled.

These verses are -- among others -- the fundaments of the Trinity concept ! In these verses, to be read contextually as a whole, Jesus clearly explains that He is the Son of God and that after his death and resurrection, a Counselor and Comforter will come to help mankind in his daily life : the Holy Spirit who is God and Jesus himself, the Father and Son himself. And all three is the Trinity. It is not ARE the trinity, but IS the Trinity.

I am not going to elaborate further on this here, because in this thread I hope to discuss the Qur'an. But if you like to know more of the Trinity concept,  we can discuss that in another thread, or directly by email.

But I am really happy to be able to discuss all this with you Firewall, especially the very mature way you are responding, without unnecessary emotions, frequently spewed by so many others which lead to nowhere and  only shut the door of communications.

I am just very glad, that I can find a true connection between the Bible and the Qur'an from our discussions.

Perhaps you can give your views and comments on my very, very, first and initial question of this topic which up until now I haven't got an reasonable and acceptable answer: 

"What and how is the connection between the the similar stories, events, figures and characters in the Qur'an and the Bible. How should we see them? In particular because the Christians knew them already for 600 years before the birth of the Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] ?

Thanks a lot, and best wishes.

Tom.-

Firewall: 

1] My question concerning the similar stories of the Qur'an and the Bible is just : Why is it similar?

The logic of the 2 facts is that the preceding stories are the original writings? Is this conclusion true?

2] Yes, definitely yes that the Jews can claim that from the Christians, but we, but we recognise that as the word of God, and also as part of the Bible.

 3] Then my question would be now: do Islam recognises the Bible as the word of God? It surely doesn't consider the Bible as part of the Qur'an?

4]  Thanks for the quotes from the Qur'an. But frankly I can't grasp the meaning of those 2 verses you quoted:  2: 135-136 and 3:65 ?

In what context is  2: 135-136 intended?

And in 3:65, what was really argued about Abraham?

5]  You know who said that in  John 16 : 13-14 ? It was Jesus himself speaking of the Holy Ghost which will come after Jesus has gone to  Heaven [, which was later confimed in Acts]. And those verses are part of most of John which explains clearly the Trinity. The  Comforter and Counselor mentioned there in some verses is the Holy Spirit, and none other.

You have to read the verses in context, not out of context. So read John from chapter 1, to understand John 16. It is a totally integrated and unseparable story of the Trinity.

Sure it fits the description of the Prophet, why not, but is then out of context. It isn't that easy. A paraphrase in the book "War and Peace" could easily fit a character in the book of "Gone with the Wind" but is then out of context. I hope you get my point.

Thanks, best wishes. Especially for the coming fasting month. God bless.

Tom.-

Hello Tom!
Sorry, it was raining here and my phone line was snapped in two-so couldnt paste a respnse earlier.Any way, got the time.

TOM:Hi Dayem,

Thanks for the extensive response. My comments are inserted.

EARLIER POSTED BY TOM:

"No, Christianity believes just in One and Only God, as Islam does."

Arnt u contradicting urself?Any way, i will ignore it.

No, not at all. You need not ignore it. Just tell me. That Christianity believes in one God only ? Because you haven't read the Bible, then I will show the relevant verses or you :

Exodus 20 : 2-5 : [I'm quoting only these 4 verses, there are lots and lots of other verses reiterating this] These 3 verses declare the 1st and 2nd of the 10 Commandents, given by God through the prophet Moses :

" [2] I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. [3] You shall have no other gods before me. [4] You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, .... "

About Jesus Christ as his son :

In John 10: verse 30 Jesus says of himself  "I and the Father are One". In John 17 verse 21 Jesus says "... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you."

DAYEM:I still dont understand what christian believe:Do they believe in ONE God, and worship Him only and dont make any idol of him,...,or they believe in Jesus (PBUH) as God also(Or son of God?)?Jesus (PBUH) said I and my father r one.Does that imply that Jesus is Also God, who does not want his idol to be made?Then surely u do wrong by making idol of Jesus(PBUH)?
Any way, THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACE WHERE JESUS(PBUH) CONTRADICT THIS STATEMENT.
"My father, he is greater than me""My Father is greater than all"John 10:29 "Of my own self I can do nothing,...." ...to quote a few.(I av quoted these outof memory, if u dont believe me i will do an search and give u the exact location).

TOM:There are lots and lots of other verses of, but let us keep it short, because in this thread we are supposed to discuss the Qur'an, not the Bible. There should be another thread to discuss the Bible.

DAYEM:The more u the verses u will quote, the more u will contradict urself.And I dont think that tis a good idea to only discuss Islam, knowing that there r so much common teaching in Bible and Quran....

TOM:You know why? Simply because during the times, 2000 - 3000 years ago when God conveyed his words to his prophets there were no tape recorders yet, no computers ....... no stationary ...... That's why. Can you picture it? All God's messages were only recorded on stone or papyrus and first transmitted mouth to mouth, and then written by heart...... Just, from what I read, as the messages of the Qur'an underwent that phase of, well, recording technology .... That the transmissions finally were subjected to errors or contradictions is easily understood.

And it is just the same with the Qur'an I think. The transmission of mouth by mouth of God's messages is bound to have errors resulting in contradictions. Very simple and very human.

DAYEM:And u know what?1400 yrs ago, there wasnt any computer or taperecorder, how ever, there was bit of stationery.The first verse to be revealed was"

1] Will you be so kind to quote the verses that tell about Jesus' coming and defeat Dajjal? Is there a certain time frame mentioned, or, the signs of his coming?

Well, I did a search for Dajjal and here is what I found:

Who is the evil Dajjal (the "anti-Christ")?
by Mohammed Ali Ibn Zubair Ali 

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

Note: Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wassallam) has exhorted the regular recital of Suratul Kahf which will most certainly save one from the Evils of Dajjal.

Hadhrat Imraan bin Husain (R.A.) relates that, "I heard Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) saying: "Since the birth of Adam (A.S.) till the advent of Qiyamah there is no fitnah (evil, test) much greater that of Dajjal."

 Hadhrat Huzaifah (R.A.) says, Dajjal will be blind in his left eye. He will have very thick hair on his body and he will also have his own type of Jannat (Heaven) and Jahannam (Hell) with him: Although his Jannat will appear as Jannat, in reality it will be Jahannam and likewise though his Jahannam will appear to be Jahannam, in reality it will be Jannat.
(Hadith: Muslim)

 Imraan bin Husain (R.A.) says Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: "Those who hear about Dajjal should stay far from him. By Allah! A person will approach him thinking him to be a Believer, but on seeing his amazing feats he will become his follower."

 Ubadah bin Saamit (R.A.) once said, "I have explained Dajjal to you but I fear that you might not have understood. Maseeh Dajjal will be short, and his legs will be crooked. The hair on his head will be extremely twisted. He will have one eye (with which he can see, and this is the protruding eye about which other ahadeeth inform us) while his other eye will be totally flat. It will neither be deep (in its socket) nor protruding.

 If you still have any doubt regarding him then remember that your Sustainer (Rabb) is not one-eyed. (Because Dajjal will eventually claim to be Allah). In a lengthy Hadith narrated by Abu Saeed (R.A.), Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) is reported to have said: "Dajjal will come but it will be prohibited and impossible for him to enter Madina. He will set up camp in a barren land outside Madina. One person who will be the best of persons will confront him by saying: "I bear witness that you are the very Dajjal about whom Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) has informed us."

Dajjal will say to his followers, "If I kill this person and then revive him, you people will still doubt me?"

 They will reply, "No."

 He will then kill this person, (according to another narration he will split this person in two) and thereafter revive him. This person will say, "I am totally convinced more than ever before that you definitely are Dajjal."

 Dajjal will attempt to kill this person again but his efforts will now be in vain.

 (According to a hadith, after this incident, Dajjal will not be able to harm anyone.)

 Hadhrat Anas (R.A.) says that Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: "Dajjal will come and finally reach the outskirts of Madina. There will be three tremors. At that time, all the disbelievers and hypocrites will flee (from Madina).

 In this way Madina Munawwarah will be purified of all the evil hypocrites.

 Hadhrat Asma bint Yazeed (R.A.) narrates that Rasulullah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) once came to my house and there he spoke about Dajjal. He said that before the emergence of Dajjal there will be three spells of drought. In one year the skies will withold one third of its rains, causing the earth to withold one third of its produce. In the second year the skies will withold two thirds of its rains, causing the earth to withold two thirds of its produce. In the third year, the skies will withold all its water and there will be no crops that year. All animals, be they hooved or toothed, will die as a result. The greatest evil of Dajjall will be to approach anyone and ask him: "If I bring your camel back to life, will you then believe that I am your Rabb?"

 This person will reply, "Most certainly."

 Thereafter Shaytaan (from the many Shayateen who will always accompany Dajjal) will appear before this person in the form of his camel with a fat hump and fully laden udders.

 Likewise Dajjal will appear before another person whose father and brother have long passed away and ask him, "If I bring your father and brother back to life will you believe that I am your Rabb?"

 This person will reply, "Why not?"

 Shaytaan will once again take on the appearance of his brother and father...
(Ahmad)

 Hadhrat Mughira ibn Shu'ba (R.A.) says that, "No one asked Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wassallam) about Dajjal as much as myself. Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wassallam) said to me, "How can he possibly harm you?"

I said: "People are saying that he will have with him a mountain of bread (provisions) and a river of water."

 Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wassallam) said: "In the sight of Allah he is much more disgraced than that. (i.e. Allah knows full well that in reality Dajjal has nothing with him, and all that which appears to be with him is but deception). (Bukhari and Muslim).

 Other Ahadeeth regarding Dajjal inform us that:

He will emerge between Shaam and Iraq, and his emergence will become known when he is in Isfahaan at a place called Yahudea.
The Yahudis (Jews) of Isfahaan will be his main followers.
Apart from having mainly Yahudi followers, he will have a great number of women followers as well.
He will have with him fire and water, but in reality the fire will be cold water while that what appears to be cold water will in reality be a blazing fire.
Those who obey him will enter "his Jannat" while those who disobey him will enter "his Jahannam."
There will be a thick fingernail-like object in his left eye.
The letters "Kaa" "Faa" "Raa" will appear on his forehead and will be deciphered by all Mu'mineen regardless of them being literate or not.
He will have a wheatish complexion.
He will travel at great speeds and his means of conveyance will be a gigantic mule. It is said that he will play beautiful music which will attract the music lovers.
Dajjal will lay claim to prophethood.
He will then lay claim to Divinity.
He will perform unusual feats.
He will travel the entire world. He will send down rains upon those who believe in him, which in turn will cause good crops to grow, trees to bear fruit and cattle to grow fat.
He will cause drought to those who disbelieve in him, resulting in starvation and hardship for them.
During those trying times the Mu'mineen will satiate their hunger through the recitation of Subhanallah and La'ilaha Ilallahu.
The hidden treasures will spill forth at his command. He will stay on this Earth for a period of forty days; the length of the first day will be one year, the second day will be equal to one month, the third day will be equal to a week and the remaining days will be normal.
He will be unable to enter Makkah because the Malaikah will be guarding the Holy City and nor will he be able to enter Madina because there will be Malaikah guarding each of the seven entrances to Madina; From Madina he will proceed towards Shaam where Imaam Mahdi will be stationed.
Finally Isa (A.S.) will descend from the heavens and pursue him and eventually kill him at present day Lydda (Baad Lud).

from: "Signs of Qiyamah"
by Mohammed Ali Ibn Zubair Ali  

DAJJAL-THE ANTI CHRIST

I would like to inform you all of some information I have come across and feel that I must share it with all and hope and pray that we all learn a lesson from this. INSHAALLAH.

You will have heard much about DAJJAL - THE ANTI-CHRIST the Anti-Christ from the Christian and Jewish authorities. But what did The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) say about DAJJAL (The greatest Fitnah (Evil, test)) that will ever befall mankind.

When shall DAJJAL appear? Most of the signs prevalent before the coming of DAJJAL can now be observed. One thing though is for certain, if you are fortunate enough not to witness the Anti-Christ, then your children certainly shall. Before the Anti-Christ shall appear we have been told there shall be a SYSTEM, a DAJJAL- system, that is up and running, that shall await his arrival. This DAJJAL-system, will be the most evil and most corrupt satanic, kaafir force in history.

This system shall promote mass immorality (Homosexuality, Adultery, Fornication), Atheism, Devil-worship, use of USURY, Intoxication, (Alcohol & Drug abuse), Crime, Injustice, Oppression, Fitnah of the Pen (Pornography magazines etc.), cause wars, Famine, Massacres, Rape and suffering on an immeasurable scale.

The DAJJAL-system is of course as we know is http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm - FREEMASONRY Every single position in the United Nations, The EEC and every position in the British Parliament is held by people who are Freemasons. Freemasonry has something in the region of 700,000 members in England and Wales, yet the British public hardly know anything about them. Freemasons secretly worship a Devil-God, known as JAHBULON, If you do not believe me (see pages 230-240 of the International best selling book on Freemasonry �The Brotherhood�, by Stephen Knight & �Satanic Voices�, by David M Pidcock).

The Jews, the Christians, the Atheists and Secularist, the Munafiqeen, the whole of Kuffaar shall fall under the banner of the Anti-Christ, against Islam. It may also surprise you to know that all Christian Organizations are Masonic Institutions. About 60% of the Archbishops are Freemasons and secretly practice Devil-worship (see above mentioned books). If you want to know if a church is being used as a Masonic-Temple, then look on the stained glass windows for a Masonic symbol such as �a snake and a dagger, or a star of David �. If the church is in the shape of a Greek Temple, then it is definitely used for Masonic purposes. In Liverpool, the Roman Catholic cathedral has many Pyramids, Masonic symbols. There may be much fear about DAJJAL, but the final victory has been promised to the Muslims. Whereby every single Jew/Freemason shall be put to death. The whole Earth shall be cleansed of Kuffaar once and for all.

Imraan Bin Hussain (RA) relates that I heard Prophet (SAWS) saying : �That since the birth of Adam (AS) till the advent of Qiyamah (Judgement day), there is no Fitnah (Evil, test) much greater than that of DAJJAL� (MUSLIM).

DAJJAL will emerge from a place between Syria and Iraq, and his emergence will become known when he is in Isfahaan at a place called Judea (Yahudea). He will be of Jewish origin. He will have caused his Jewish parents much distress and pain. The Jews will accept him as � The Messiah� and become his main followers. He will also have a great number of women followers as well. The entire secular world (Jews/Freemasons, Atheist, Christians, Hindus Etc.) shall unite under the banner of the Anti-Christ against Islam. Islam will be the only force standing between him and the total world domination.

Huzaifah (RA) says, �Dajjal will be blind in one eye�. This blind eye will be swollen like a grape : There will be a thick finger-like object in his eye. The letters �KAF�, �FE�, �RE� will be written on his forehead (meaning - Unbeliever). Every Muslim will be able to read these letters whether he is literate or illiterate. He will travel at great speeds by means of a gigantic animal-like a mule.....(MUSLIM & AHMAD).

Note: On the US one Dollar,  There is  a Masonic sign implicating DAJJAL, a pyramid with one eye - check it out, if you don�t believe me !! Underneath it which is written � Novus Ordo Seclorum� -- Translated as:  �NEW SECRET ORDER�.

Ubaidah Bin Saamit (RA) says, Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) said � I have explained DAJJAL to you, but I fear that you might not have understood. DAJJAL will be short, and his legs will be crooked. The hair on his head will be extremely twisted...... If you have any doubt regarding DAJJAL, remember that your Sustainer (ALLAH), is not one eyed. (Because DAJJAL will eventually claim to be God himself. His followers shall accept him as such). He will be able to split a person into two and then bring him back life again....(AHMAD).

Narrated Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman: "Subay' ibn Khalid said: I came to Kufah at the time when Tustar was conquered. I took some mules from it. When I entered the mosque (of Kufah), I found there some people of moderate stature, and among them was a man whom you could recognize when you saw him that he was from the people of Hijaz.  I asked: Who is he? The people frowned at me and said: Do you not recognize him? This is Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman, the companion of the Apostle of Allaah (peace_be_upon_him).  Then Hudhayfah said: People used to ask the Apostle of Allaah (peace_be_upon_him) about good, and I used to ask him about evil. Then the people stared hard at him.  He said: I know the reason why you dislike it. I then asked: Apostle of Allaah, will there be evil as there was before, after this good which Allaah has bestowed on us?  He replied: Yes. I asked: Wherein does the protection from it lie? He replied: In the sword. I asked: Apostle of Allaah, what will then happen?   He replied: If Allaah has on Earth a caliph who flays your back and takes your property, obey him, otherwise die holding onto the stump of a tree.  I asked: What will come next? He replied: Then the Antichrist (Dajjal) will come forth accompanied by a river and fire. He who falls into his fire will certainly receive his reward, and have his load taken off him, but he who falls into his river will have his load retained and his reward taken off him.  I then asked: What will come next? He said: The Last Hour will come.  (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 35, Trials and Fierce Battles (Kitab Al-Fitan Wa Al-Malahim), Number 4232)"

Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The greatest war, the conquest of Constantinople and the coming forth of the Dajjal (Antichrist) will take place within a period of seven months.  (Translation of Sunan Abu- Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4282)"

Narrated Abu Hurayrah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islaam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allaah will perish all religions except Islaam. He will destroy the http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/dajjal.htm - Antichrist http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/dajjal.htm - (Dajjal) and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.   (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4310)"

Huzaifah (RA) also says, He will have with him WATER (Heaven) and FIRE (HELL). In reality his hell shall be heaven and his heaven shall be hell......(MUSLIM). In another Ahaadeeth of Our Prophet (SAWS) has said, that DAJJAL shall not know himself the difference between the two. If you are forced to choose between the two, then choose his fire (Hell), for in reality, it will be cool water, and his water (Heaven), shall be Hell.

Imraan Bin Hussain (RA) says the Prophet (SAWS) said ; �Those who hear about DAJJAL should stay far from him. By Allah! A person will approach him thinking him to be a believer, but on seeing his amazing feats, will become his follower�. (ABU DAWOOD). 

Note : DAJJAL will have the power to cause Famine, Earth quakes and destruction on a mass scale. Many Muslims will join the ranks of DAJJAL on being afraid of his power. Only those with very strong faith will be able to resist. Remember that once you have joined the Anti-Christ, your soul will be doomed forever in the fire of hell. O Brothers / Sisters please come to the religion of Islam and prepare yourself for the big day. I hope this is of use to you and may Allah guide and protect us, so that we my spread the word of Allah in abundance. Ameen

2]  Who will judge mankind on Judgement Day, if not Jesus. God himself? Again, the verses telling us this?

Ahem, here we go:

001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

001.003
YUSUFALI: Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
PICKTHAL: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: The Beneficent, the Merciful.

001.004
YUSUFALI: Master of the Day of Judgment.
PICKTHAL: Master of the Day of Judgment,
SHAKIR: Master of the Day of Judgment.

001.005
YUSUFALI: Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
PICKTHAL: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
SHAKIR: Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

001.006
YUSUFALI: Show us the straight way,
PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path,
SHAKIR: Keep us on the right path.

001.007
YUSUFALI: The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
PICKTHAL: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
SHAKIR: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

QIYAMAH: DOOMSDAY

On the http://www.inter-islam.org/faith/Part1a.html#The Last Dat Qiyamat - Day of Qiyamah, the feet of the human being will not be able to move till he/she is questioned about five matters (and gives a reasonable account):

1.  On what they spent their life,
2.  In what pursuits they passed their youth,
3.  From where did they earn wealth,
4.  On what they spent it,
5.  How much they acted upon the knowledge they required.

I swear by the Day of Resurrection; and I swear by the self reproaching person (a believer.does man (a disbeliver) think that We shall not assemble his bones? Yes, we are able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers. Nay! man denies reserruction and Reckoning. So he desires to continue commiting sins. He asks: "When will be this Day of Resurrection? So, when the sight is dazed, and the moon will be  eclipsed, and sun and moon are united(by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their light etc). On that day man will cry: Where (is the refuge) to flee!" No! there is no refuge! Unto your Lord alone will be the place of rest that Day. On that day man will be informed of what he sent forward (of his eivil or good deeds), and what he left behind (of his good or evil traditions). Nay! Man will be a witness against himself [as his body parts (skin, hands, legs etc.) will speak about his deeds] Though he may put forth his excuses (to cover his evil deeds).Surah Al-Qiyamah:1-15

" So do you think that We created you  but, for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us (for account)?"

(Surah Al-Mominoon:115

A UNIQUE DIFFERENCE

The Holy Quraan states clearly relating belief that Allah is just and His justice demands that there must be difference between the rewards of those who do good deeds and that punishment must be emended to those who live an evil life.  Since it is not always necessary that good deeds are attended by good results in this life, it is necessary that somehow and somewhere man should get full reward for his good deeds and should be punished for his evil deeds. 
Almighty Allah says: 

"Shall We treat those who believe and do good deeds of righteousness, the same as those who spread corruption (do mischief) on earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil (pious), the same as those who turn aside from the right (wicked)?

(Surah Saad:28)

 3] You stated that " .... Jesus [PBUH] was taken to the 7th heaven [or sky???] ... ", where is this stated in the Qur'an and, does it mean that Jesus was resurrected from the dead?

Well, not from the death, in fact he was alive when he wwas taken to heaven, and alhamdillilah, he is still alive.

JESUS RAISED TO HEAVEN

I have read some verses in the Qur'an stating that God will resurrect Jesus from the dead but I cannot find when. Because Jesus just died as we humans do?

Is there a purpose explained in the Qur'an why Jesus was resurrected from the dead?

God will resurrect Jesus(PBUH) frm the dead???Well, as Jesus(PBUH) is alive currently, there aint any need to resurrect him, is there?When Jesus(PBUH) will come back to earth, he will deafeat Dajjal or Anti-Christ, and then die like humans.Of couse, then he will be resurrected on the judgement day like u and me.

I didnt follow ur second question, what is the exact meaning of resurrection?I believe it means to give life again?Sorry, my english is not good, its my third language.But anyway, as quoted above:

And when Jesus perceived their unbelief, he said, 'who will be my helpers in the cause of God? The Apostles said, 'we will be helpers of God.' We believe in God; be witness of our submission. Lord, we believe in that you have sent down, and we follow the Messenger. Inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness.' And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers. When God said, 'Jesus, I will take you to me and will raise you to Me, and I will purify you of those who do not believe. I will set your followers above the unbelievers till the Resurrection Day. Then unto Me shall you return, and I will decide between you, as to what you were at variance on. As for the unbelievers, I will punish them with a terrible punishment in this world and the next; they shall have no helpers.' (3:52-6)

PS are you a student?

Yes, and I thought u were also.

Thanx,I believe , though lengthy, these post will help u understand Islam better.

Dayem

Thomas wrote: Qur'an and the Bible is just : Why is it similar? The logic of the 2 facts is that the preceding stories are the original writings? Is this conclusion true?

hi Thomas. as been said, muslims believe in all the prophets & revelations to them from Allah, The One. thus the issue is not really plagiarism, but more about the source of the revelations. it's all from Allah. each revelations simply confirms its precedents.

Thomas wrote: Yes, definitely yes that the Jews can claim that from the Christians, but we, but we recognise that as the word of God, and also as part of the Bible.

yes, muslims also recognizes Moses & Jesus revelations as the word of Allah. believing in Taurat & Injeel is one the Islam pillars of faith, so muslims must believe or we'll expire our faith. so muslims have no issue at all in believing. rather, I think the issue is more towards wether the Jews & Christians, do they belief in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)?

Thomas wrote: do Islam recognises the Bible as the word of God? It surely doesn't consider the Bible as part of the Qur'an?

 
Yes Islam recognizes Injeel, revealed to Iesa son of Mary (Jesus) as the word from Allah. again, the revelations are reinforcements & confirmations to its precedents. the Quran is revealed, confirming Injeel, Taurat & its precedents, just as the Injeel is revealed, confirming the Taurat & its precedents.

Quran, 3:3 It is He (Allah) Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad [PBUH]) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

Quran, 5:46 And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaq�n (the pious).

Thomas wrote: And in 3:65, what was really argued about Abraham?

as jews & christians promotes their own religions, muslims are told to state that we follow the religion of Abraham to them. if Jews & Christians follow the same religion as Abraham's religion, it's really the same religion as muslims. that was my intention. in Islam, the religion is one. just look at Abraham's religion, & compare it to your own, if you believe in him.

Quran, 23:52-53 And verily! This your religion is one religion, and I am your Lord, so keep your duty to Me. But they (men) have broken their religion among them into sects, each group rejoicing in its belief.

plus the line of Prophets afterwards many descends from Abraham, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself descends of him (Ishmael). the history of Kaa'bah in Mecca also links to Abraham, whereby Abraham laid its foundations. & all of them worships & strived for the worship of the One God, Allah.

 

Thomas wrote: Thanks, best wishes. Especially for the coming fasting month. God bless.

OK, thanks Thomas. May Allah Blesses & Guides you as well. I hope I didn't hurt you or anything, it will blemish my fast.   If did sorry, plss. i tried my best, i hope you know that i'm not a scholar just simply stating what I know. thus I hope Allah Will Help me & fellow muslims will correct any mistakes. Thank you again.

PS: Christians fast at Lent too, correct?

Hi everybody. Here I am again, I had many other things to look after during the past two weeks. I will send my replies on your past postings later in the day.

Until then.

Tom.-

Dayem:  About Dajjal --  very, very interesting:

1]  I 'm a bit surprised that in your postings there is no quote of any Qur'anic verses whatever. I take it that the source  on Dajjal was merely based on the hadiths?

2] Dajjal was/is/will be ? also something as a human being, with a short body, crooked legs, twisted hair and one eye ?

And what is meant by "Jannat" and "Jahanam" exactly?

3] Is this Dajjal a monster with extraordinary powers, such as reviving people from the dead -- posing as these people, and also as animals: a camel, and causing dry spells, etc ?

4] And Dajjal will come at the end of days, preceded by those famines,quakes and fire ?

5] And Dajjal is also the Anti-Christ ? And a "system" ? And members of the Freemasons? And quoting you " ..... all Jews, Christians, Secularists, the Munafiqeen shall fall under the banner of the anti-Christ, against Islam."  ? Well, well my dear friend, isn't this a bit too radical?   Does the Qur'an says so ? Frankly I cannot imagine it.

6]  Quoting your posting:

Narrated Abu Hurayrah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islaam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allaah will perish all religions except Islaam. He will destroy the http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/dajjal.htm - - (Dajjal) and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.   (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4310)"

Welcome back!

Really thomas, for every explanation there r ten queastions!Anyway i will answer them tommorow, busy currently.

Regads,

dayem.

Dayem:  Here are my further comments, somewhat late, but never out-of-date !

DAYEM:I still dont understand what christian believe:Do they believe in ONE God, and worship Him only and dont make any idol of him,...,or they believe in Jesus (PBUH) as God also(Or son of God?)?Jesus (PBUH) said I and my father r one.Does that imply that Jesus is Also God, who does not want his idol to be made?Then surely u do wrong by making idol of Jesus(PBUH)?
Any way, THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACE WHERE JESUS(PBUH) CONTRADICT THIS STATEMENT.
"My father, he is greater than me""My Father is greater than all"John 10:29 "Of my own self I can do nothing,...." ...to quote a few.(I av quoted these outof memory, if u dont believe me i will do an search and give u the exact location).

Let me try to explain in another way: The Old Testament stories span a time of some 4000 years. One of the main issues, even the foremost issues is, that the Old Testament describes is God's anger with the Israelites that they worshipped idols, and that they do not obey him. In the book of Exodus God explicitly and clearly COMMANDED, in the First Commandment, that it only he should be worshipped, AND NO ONE ELSE.

Then God promised in the OT to send someone to absolve mankind from their sins, that was Jesus Christ. And in the book of Matthew of the New Testament Jesus then declared the Holy Commandment just to love God only, just One God.

Of the 1500 standard Bible pages, perhaps the context of 1000 pages concerns the One-ness of God.

This One-ness of God I've tried to describe in 2 sentences. There are millions of books that analyse, examine, dissect, study the monotheism of Christianity .... So if you are serious to convince yourself of that, just read them But even the Bible is clear enough to understand that.

DAYEM:The more u the verses u will quote, the more u will contradict urself.And I dont think that tis a good idea to only discuss Islam, knowing that there r so much common teaching in Bible and Quran...

Ahaa ! You're really good, my friend! I agree fully that we have to study both holy books, the Quran and the Bible together. And this is what I exactly try to do with this thread ! And doesn't the Qur'an says that our Gods are the saem God, the same One and Only God ? 2: 163; 3: 51;18: 110; 19:35; 21: 108; 29: 46 .

And I truly believe that those verses of the Qur'an above is THE CONNECTION between God's word in the Qur'an and the Bible.

DAYEM:Ah, now how very illogical.....You mean that we should ignore the dead and dried leaf and look at the trunk?What r u driving at?IF the leaf are dried, then the trunk will be dead!!And another question, how r u going to seprate the dried leaf which has firmly squeezed the trunk?For instance, u may quote Jesus(PBUH) saying:I and my father r one.;And I will quote:My Father is greater than me.Now which one is the part of trunk, and which one is the leaf?How exactly will u figure that out??
In fact, God also thought that the tree formed by the Bible is weak,its root r old and it may fall any movement, so he sent Quran.And the tree formed by the Quran is yet healthy and not a leaf is out of place.YES!Look at the very surface of this tree, turn the leaf upside down-u will find them healthy!!

I just meant by the example of the tree is that my personal view is to be able to discuss and understand our faiths best is that we better look at the whole tree first, before examining the small leaves. The big picture of the tree, of our faiths will give an impression of what God in principal asks from us, what doctrine is conveyed. The leaves are how we have to implement the fundamentals.

I'm very much convinced that the leaves are all the same: love your neighbour, don't lie etc.

 Believe in one God alone, belongs to the main trunk. But then: don't tolerate, destroy, kill and wipe the "dis/non-believers" off the face of the earth, is that part of the the main trunk? Is it doctrinal? And where is it commanded by God in the Qur'an?

I mention this deliberately -- for the so manyth time -- because of the so many killings and terror against Christians, even today, in many parts of the world, also in my country, by groups that carry the banner of Islam.

And in another thread in this forum I'm currently discussing whether according the Qur'an Christians are considered "disbelievers" ?

Dayem:I beg ur pardon, i dont mean to offend ur faith, but R U JUDGING THE HEALTHY TREE OF QURAN BY WEAKENED TREE OF BIBLE????How can u take a verse of bible(that Jesus(PBUH) is God ), knowing fully well that it is bound to  have some error, as it is not the original BIBLE, and judge QURAN by it?How do I know that a particular verse is the word of GOD or human invention.Through Quran we come to know that Allah did revealed Bible, but this copy is not the exact one.So I hv got only one option, that is to judge BIBLE FROM QURAN and not vice versa.The common material is, all right, word of God, while other have chances that they r not.Anyway,Quran says that Jesus(pbuh) was a muslim(muslim=some one who has submitted his will against the will Of GOD)"Of myself I am unable to do anything: as the voice comes to me so I give a decision: and my decision is right because I have no desire to do what is pleasing to myself, but only what is pleasing to him who sent me."John 5:30.Then this verse is true.While another one say that Jesus(PBUH) was = God, then this verse is wrong.

First a small point, I'm not discussing the Qur'an from the Christian viewpoint.  Well, from the above paragraph, it seems to me that you can only see the Bible from the Qur'anic viewpoint. And that it is difficult for you to accept that the same God that the Qur'an mentions, have told mankind his word through another book, or even, you flatly deny that there is such a possibility ? That God may have conveyed his word and messages through an earlier people at an earlier time? Even the Qur'an is referring God's word in the Scriptures as a recognition of that reality?

My opinion is that it would be very useful to make a conclusion after you have heard and studied what Christianity, which is the word of the same God, has said first. Otherwise you are just shutting the door for a emaning ful discussion and communication, and only going to shoot at us Christians without knowing who we are, and what we really believe.

DAYEM:Prejudices!!!!?Can u tell me how and where?I hv got Quran, I beleive it to be word of GOd and all the teaching in it are very good, a wonderful book, gives all type of answer,.......comparing to bible, I dont say that it do not have important stuff-but contains pollution, contains contradictions, errors, human invention,contains 1=3.....What am I to follow?

My good friend, of course you have lots of prejudices. The whole sentence reflects that!  What you have to follow? Your faith, my friend, just your faith, what you believe ini. But does it mean that you do not need to listen what another faith says? If you can fully understand another faith, then it does not mean that you have to follow that faith! No, not at all. I  myself want to understand Islam better, to gain more knowledge of Islam. Why for instance some Islamic groups are so hostile to us Christians. Is is it Qur'an based?

DAYEM:Then why not read Quran?And why only Quran, the Gita, the vedas, the Guru granth?Why not have a muslim scholar explaining u every type of problems u may come across in Quran, so that u understand Quran better?And Y not ask Allah, God, Ishwar, Bhagwan, ALmighty, to help u in ur search?If u want to search truth, then u will have to leave the religion u follow, and with a neutral mind study all the religion again.Best of Luck.

I think I've answered that already. But, once again: it is not necessary to leave the religion you follow, if you want to understand the other religion! And, it just might be that in search of the truth with discussing and knowing other religions you may just be strengthenend in your faith that you still believe in ........ That the faith that your follow is already right.

My goal in with these discussions is just to first understand Islam better and also : what the connection really is between the Qur'an and the Bible.

DAYEM:Maybe u r right.But they dont justify there action through Quran, or do they?They only claim responsiblity.In fact I will be very surprised if they say that the attack carried out by them r in accordance with Quran..The most they some bad guys do is quote out of context to some muslim youth who is all charged up and....Any way, where is the fault of Quran?Quran has forbidden killing innocents, u know.

Hey, my dear friend, please look at the facts, they're just trumpeting that it is because of Islam !!  I definitely do not conclude that it is the fault of the Qur'an. No, I just don't know why they're doing that. Haaa, thank you for explaining to me what the look of Islam tree really is : No killing! Which verses ??

The conclusion of those killing and terror of non-Moslems is then : just human creations ?

DAYEM:Im very sorry; but if u pose question on Islam and say that bible is correct and quran have errors, i dont have much option than to turn the table over.

No, my friend, I didn't say that there are no flaws and contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible, no, not at all, those are all leaves. But the main trunk and branhes of the Christianity tree is OK.

Dayem:Wow, which language by the way?

Well, the Indonesian language.

Best wishes. Especially for this fasting month. Thanks for reading this very long post.

Tom.-

Dayem:  thanks for the long postings; here are some of my comments and questions

1] On Judgment Day:

It is a pity that verse 1:4 "Master of the day of Judgment" is so very short.

 Are there no other verses telling us more on the Day of Judgment? When this will happen ? Are there signs given by God beforehand? Is it mentioned in the Qur'an?

I have read lots of verses in the Qur'an that judgment is God's only, that is very clear. But when it will come is not prophesied.

2] On Jesus' resurrection from the dead :

You explained that Jesus didn't die and was taken up to heaven alive, But what about these 2 verses in the Qur'an ? Don't these verses indicate that Jesus did die?

4 : 159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

19 : 33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

Firewall: thanks for your comments [Oct 3] ! Good to hear from you again. Here are some comments from me -- very belatedly, but never too late I think ! [ I was very busy with other matters these past 2 weeks.]

No, of course you have not at all offended me! Perhaps you have noticed that I try to put my comments in an academic perspective, rather than on an emotional one [ , which I believe leads to nowhere.] With an academic color, there is less risk for emotional offenses.

Your comments are just what I anticipated! Only what is still not clear to me is what parts of the Bible does the Qur'an recognises. What about the Trinity concept?

Thanks and best wishes.

Tom.-

Hello again,

1]  I 'm a bit surprised that in your postings there is no quote of any Qur'anic verses whatever. I take it that the source  on Dajjal was merely based on the hadiths?

Thats how I see it, yes.

2] Dajjal was/is/will be ? also something as a human being, with a short body, crooked legs, twisted hair and one eye ?

He will be, in future.(Did u actually read that long article I posted?Or r u merelly cross checking?).Crooked leg one eye etec etc r the discription of Dajjal we gt from hadiths.

And what is meant by "Jannat" and "Jahanam" exactly?

Jannat=Heven, Paradise
Jahannam=Hell.(in Arabic or Urdu language).

3] Is this Dajjal a monster with extraordinary powers, such as reviving people from the dead -- posing as these people, and also as animals: a camel, and causing dry spells, etc ?

Yep, and he will have power that shall make him look like he is god, and he will claim to be one, to befool peoples.

4] And Dajjal will come at the end of days, preceded by those famines,quakes and fire ?

Yeah.These r all signs of end of days.

5] And Dajjal is also the Anti-Christ ? And a "system" ? And members of the Freemasons? And quoting you " ..... all Jews, Christians, Secularists, the Munafiqeen shall fall under the banner of the anti-Christ, against Islam."  ? Well, well my dear friend, isn't this a bit too radical?   Does the Qur'an says so ? Frankly I cannot imagine it.

"Anti-Christ" is a term made by people only.Dunno why.Prophet(pbuh) called him DAJJAL which means EVIL.
System?Freemasons?Whats that??Sorry, didnt gt u.
Yeah ur rite, bit too radical, but not really impossible.Say, if tommorow some superman comes, perform strange feats, miracles, in this age of science, and claim he is God, threatens with his 'Jahannam', what r people gonna do?I think, if the muslim r were not warned about this Dajjal, they themself would have converted against his magic.
I dunno if the Quran says about all this; cant say for certain.

7] Why is Dajjal called the "Anti-Christ" ? Is it mentioned in the Qur'an?

Dunno.Maybe cauze Christ(PBUH) is going to kill him?Cauze he will be against him.

8]  It seems that from your quotation above Jesus is considered as representing the "Good" against Dajjal the "Evil". But, what about "Iblis", the "devil" which mentioned in the Qur'an -- if I'm not mistaken? And who is more evil ?

Yep, u might be right.And who is more evil-ha, for one thing Dajjal hasnt come yet.For another, I dont know of any scale which measures an 'evilness' of a person.

Since the Dajjal "monster-evil" is based on the hadith, what weight does it have vis-a-v-s the Qur'an itself?

Ah, now thats a good question.As a matter of fact, I meself am confused.Here is one ray I can grasp:
Quran hints that Jesus(PBUH) will return.These Hadiths speaks about Jesus(PBUH) returning.Apart from that, it also speaks about some signs and Dajjal.These signs, some of them have already been fulfilled, and many are being fulfilled at a fast pace.
http://www.jesuswillreturn.com - http://www.jesuswillreturn.com
This site discusses all the signs fulfilled in great details.Now since one of the signs is Dajjal, who knows that will also be fulfilled soon.

I will reply soon to other comments, watch out!

Regards, Dayem.

Hi everybosy,

Sorry for my 3 weeks absence. I got deeply involved in my business, and then my computer broke down due heavu thunder, adn not yet repaired because the shops are all still closed because of the long Idul Fitri holidays.

Well, there is no significant activity in this forum.It is suspect, because all the fundamental issues of the Qu'ran are already being extensively debated in the other forums.

Anyway, I remain convinced that this is the appropriate forum to discuss the fundamental substances of the Qu'ran.

Welcome Fresh ! If you want to orientate yourself better just read the very first of my posting. But, commenting on your questions:

Well it is not for me to say why one Prophet is not enough !! You have to ask God for that question. You, and I, just have tp face the facts that God has has sent to mankind many prophets. But, what is your problem exactly with your question?

As for the messages for the blind :I think we can solve that problem by assisting the blind with whatever way, and device, to get the messages from God. No problem that I think.

Sure God is the Foreknowing of guidance to mankind, and not only for the time being, but since time ever.

To Dayeem : My friend I think you still have to respond to my comments. And mind you, to obtain a meaningful discussion, don't forget that it mus be 2-way discussion ! Not only one way !

All the best to you all.

Tom.-

Dear Thomas, Dayeem, and Faith,

This thread is really interesting, and I read so many things new. I will not comment for now, since I myself need to study.

Fox

DeVil,

That's wise of you.

Lamp Lighter

Hi every body, sorry for being absent so long, I got so many other thing to attend to.

But glancing through the posts, am happy to see new participants! Hope to read your comments soon!

All my initial questions, posted abt 3 months ago, are still quite answered satisfactorily ...

Thanks.

See you all soon !

Tom.-