As'Salaamu Alaikum ya Muslimeen!

I wonder sisters is it discourage in our community especially for a man of the communtiy to be a OB/GYN doctor? It sounds like a no brainer but for all seriousness what do you sisters think? Also yes Angel your response is also necessary it gives the flavor of anothe ropinion....

Assalamu alaikum,

All my Muslimah friends go to female OB/GYN doctors.  I think this is more comfortable and more correct for them, yes?  After all, would a man wish to go to a female proctologist?   (As if a female would wish to go into that field.  )

In my own opinion, it only makes sense to go to someone who has the same parts and knows first hand how they function!

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah

Israfil wrote: As'Salaamu Alaikum ya Muslimeen! I wonder sisters is it discourage in our community especially for a man of the communtiy to be a OB/GYN doctor? It sounds like a no brainer but for all seriousness what do you sisters think? Also yes Angel your response is also necessary it gives the flavor of anothe ropinion....

I have no idea. But I do wonder why men opt for this profession. It could be that from the beginning of science, when the population of women coming in workforce was small, men took over, and the tradition is being carried down till today.

I agree with sister Ummziba, it is definitely more comfortable to see a female doc for reasons of modesty and shyness. It is easier to communicate and less embarassing while going thru a pap test or a digital exam. 

I think men can be as efficient obgyns as a woman, when they go thru a professional training, so I have no reason to doubt a male docs ability, but I wish they had left this area exclusively for women to specialize in

We know that if a woman is forced by necessity to see a male doc, there is no blame on her. So, I hope if a man is forced by necessity to opt for this profession, there would not be any blame. After all the job is to benefit the society at large.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Assalamu alaikum Brother Israfil,

I will be more blunt - for myself, I would rather die than go to a male ob/gyn.  It has nothing to do with his competence or knowledge or qualifications.  It is purely a matter of modesty.  Maybe other sisters feel differently.

Either male or female can do the job.  But, why would a male choose this job?  (I mean, especially a male Muslim - who is not supposed to even see his father's or brother's private parts - why would he chose a job in which he would see something he is not supposed to???) 

Allah tells us in the Qur'an to "lower our gaze and guard our modesty".  Does a Muslim male ob/gyn follow this?  Does a Muslim female who goes to a male ob/gyn follow this?  Of course, in necessity, there is no sin on either.

I know, in the west, females are used to male ob/gyn's, but that doesn't make it right.  Myself, I thank Allah for women who choose to go into this field, they are badly needed.

Peace, ummziba.

I had women attending to me at birth but at the end the doctors came in to attend the nurse and oversee the birth in case their was complications. At that point, near the end of labor, it made no difference to me. The men left quickly because I didn't even notice!

Giving birth is such an amazing experience the gender of the ob seems of small concern at the moment. 

As'Salaamu Alaikum Muslimahs

In God's name I love each and every one of my sister sin Islam for their great knowledge!

Ummmziba you are indeed a righteous person when it comes to one explaining herself. You are indeed right to criticize that scenario. The one thing I understand little about this profession is the female anatomy is all the same--or similar in the sense of their fuctions and their generations. When it comes to these professions sister we have to be careful and not generalize. The knowledge of a female gynecologist and male gynecologist are the same. The go through the same schooling and practice in the same field. Their only difference is perhaps the salary and their sex.

Sister I for one understand the comfort level when it comes to examination. I remmber when playing basketball in college we used to get exams by one physician. All male athletes know about the cough cough check up. To me that was embarassing exposing myself to a male but I now understand that in my mind it was embarassing because I felt exposed but perhaps in the mind oh the physician it was "another job."

The main point of medicine as I understand it is the advancement of medicine and perhaps how we react to such methods are dependednt on our culture/experience. I now know here that majority of you here with the exception of MayPB would be uncomfortable just for reasons of preference. Perhaps its more of preference than anything I see.... To answer you question sister, why would a male choose that line of profession? Well the most noblest answer would be to better understand the human anatomy and to better advance the human condition.

I have a friend who has an inverted uterus (it kinda "leans" in the opposite direction , if that makes any sense)

Anyhow, she tells the story of 2 different gynaecologists she has visited - one a female, one a male. She said the female doctor, when doing a pap smear and whatever treatment was needed that day really caused my friend a lot of pain. She said she was quite rough with her and my friend was quite upset by the incident.

By contrast, she said the male gynaecologist was gentle and very very careful with her and caused her almost no pain and absolutely no distress at all!

So I think it just depends on the individual. the VAST majority of health professionals are just that - PROFESSIONAL. I was in hospital for 9 weeks and you really need to "check your dignity at the door". I was there for a smashed pelvis, so couldn't move at all. I had to use a pan, instead of going to the toilet (and try to tell me that THAT isn't humiliating no matter WHAT the sex of the person attending you), I changed menstrual pads while the male nurse was standing there to take the old one away, etc, etc. You are their patients, they are your professional, medically trained carers. they've seen it all. aS As a patient you have to trust them and not think "Oh my! I'm the ONLY female body they've ever seen!" Cos baby - it ain't true!

Kim...

Kim, quite true.

Israfil,

why would a male choose that line of profession? Well the most noblest answer would be to better understand the human anatomy and to better advance the human condition.

Well, yes but in a not so long destint past being a doctor of any sorts was basically male and its only recently that women are in areas where once it was just men, I think even now women doctors have a hard time getting past this fratenity of men.

I personally think OB/GYN should be left to women

you ask:

is there something I as a man cannot comprehend....?

oh sure, there is, you as a man and other men do not know what a woman goes thru what she feels

The knowledge of a female gynecologist and male gynecologist are the same. The go through the same schooling and practice in the same field. Their only difference is perhaps the salary and their sex.

Well, yes and you say the knowledge of a female gynecologist and male gyneocologist are the same, physically yes but a woman does have an advantage over a male somewhat  

Women understand women better on an emotional and intutive level this is where and what women want most of all, but I will admit that some women can be rough as Kim mentioned and in my experience women some, don't understand another because they do not have or go thru the same as the other woman.

I often think I perfer a woman examining me but honestly I would just want a doctor that is sensitive and gentle towards me. and also up with the world and the advance in the medical profession.

Ummmziba,

I know, in the west, females are used to male ob/gyn's, but that doesn't make it right.

Usually that is through no fault of their own but because of the male domination of this area and hardly women ob/gyn that women do get used to it having a male. But if there was a chance I believe many would see a female.

Israfil,

I agree with Angel. I suppose most women, muslim and non-muslim would too. I strongly feel that practicing OB/GYN should be left to women. Although studying it to further their professional understanding though is a fine for a Muslim man.

Psychological and physical comfort depends on past experiences and perceptions. No matter how much a man studies about the anatomy of a woman, he is not a woman, and therefore the women doctors would have at least that distinct advantage when it comes to treatment and understanding. I wouldn't however go as far as Ummziba who "...would rather die than go to a male ob/gyn..." There are exceptions to every rule and Allah knows All.

ummziba wrote: I will be more blunt - for myself, I would rather die than go to a male ob/gyn.  It has nothing to do with his competence or knowledge or qualifications.  It is purely a matter of modesty.  Maybe other sisters feel differently.

God help you if you hemmorage and there is only a male OB/GYN there.

kim! wrote: I have a friend who has an inverted uterus (it kinda "leans" in the opposite direction , if that makes any sense) Anyhow, she tells the story of 2 different gynaecologists she has visited - one a female, one a male. She said the female doctor, when doing a pap smear and whatever treatment was needed that day really caused my friend a lot of pain. She said she was quite rough with her and my friend was quite upset by the incident. By contrast, she said the male gynaecologist was gentle and very very careful with her and caused her almost no pain and absolutely no distress at all! Kim...

Had the same expierence here Kim and I will never go to another female Gyno! The OB/GYN that did my C-Section is the best in the buisness where I live and knowing that why on earth would I trust my health and my pregnancies to anyone else?

Lameese

I think, Israfil, you missed a few points I made, I agree with kim also, its there right on top of the post

I'll come back later, as I am leaving work now

Assalamu alaikum,

I'll never read this thread at bedtime again.  Last night I dreamed I gave birth.  It was my fifth child.  It was a boy, I named him Omar Mustafa.  The labour was not too painful.  Now the scary part - it was a male doctor, ahhhhhhhhhhhhh .

Peace, ummziba.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

ummziba wrote: Assalamu alaikum, I'll never read this thread at bedtime again.  Last night I dreamed I gave birth.  It was my fifth child.  It was a boy, I named him Omar Mustafa.  The labour was not too painful.  Now the scary part - it was a male doctor, ahhhhhhhhhhhhh . Peace, ummziba.

Walaikum assalam sister,

That was the most interesting comment I have read so far on this thread, alhamdulillah.

If you may, the prediction of your dream is that something very nice is going to take place in your life, insha allah. Giving birth to a baby boy in a dream is absolutely positive - that is what I have heard thru sources

I had this dream once, long ago, and this was the prediction I received from a friend. Indeed something wonderful happened (no it was not a baby boy that I delivered actually), - very unexpected - something that I dont know if I was waiting for or thought I wanted, but alhamdulillah that is how it was.

So, sisters, if you want to sleep after reading this thread, please feel free  - give some credits to Israfil when your life changes for good, insha allah

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

ummziba wrote: Assalamu alaikum, I'll never read this thread at bedtime again.  Last night I dreamed I gave birth.  It was my fifth child.  It was a boy, I named him Omar Mustafa.  The labour was not too painful.  Now the scary part - it was a male doctor, ahhhhhhhhhhhhh . Peace, ummziba.

LOOOOOOOOOL! I feel for you! You did a lot of WORK in that dream. Maybe you will have another one :)

Lameese

Jenni wrote: I think this empasis on a male obgyn is overrated. Let me say that I sought out females with both of my deliveries and had sucsess with them. However I think all of you should know as a Person who worked in Surgery, I was A surgical assistant for 6 years before having kids that your modesty is the last concern during any operation. If you have abdominal surgery your entire abdomen and breasts would be exposed and possibly your pubic area and your stomach shaved. If you have rectal surgery your bottom will be in the air naked if front of many people. And there is no way to get an all female room in most cases,99%. There will be nurses, orderlies and the doctors most likely male in and out of the room. Our main concern was safety and patient care and the last thing we cared about was you naked. It was strictly anatomy or body parts to us and we just go about our business talking and listening to music during any procedure. So the point is professinals, most of them like me have seen so many naked people men and women that we really are numb to it. We want to make the procedure go well, not stare at your private parts. I believe the same is for male gynocologists and if I lived in a rural area with no women I would gladly see one with no shame in it, and I believe there would be no sin in it either. Peace

I am in health care too and everything you said is 100% correct. It is very hard on pt's that need total care but we are professionals and have seen so many naked bodies that no one cares anything about that. The pt is your primary concern, their health and saftey.

Lameese

Assalamu alaikum,

Israfil wrote: Again, modesty has nothing to do with medicine like I said these people have seen private parts so many times that it really doesn't matter...I think the only time when modesty is an issue if the female hygiene is bad.

I'll add two things here.  One, modesty doesn't matter to the health worker who has seen more nakedness than one could count - but it may matter very much to the woman who has to expose her own very private parts (regardless that they look just like everyone elses, regardless that the people looking at them have seen it all before, regardless that the health workers are behaving most professionally) - it can still be very traumatizing to the woman.  This is even more especially so for woman (and unfortunately, there are millions of them) who have ever been sexually abused at any time in their life - this is something that may not have occured to you.

Secondly, the woman's hygiene would not be a cause for her to worry about modesty.  In my opinion, people with poor hygiene are generally unaware of it, or they would certainly do something about it!  Linking modesty with hygiene makes no sense.

Perhaps this whole topic could be summed up by stating that: as long as the health worker is professional, caring and gentle, it is unimportant what gender they are.  The most important consideration is the feelings of the patient, who may or may not be in great stress over whatever proceedure they must endure.  So, empathy and understanding are paramount.

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: Perhaps this whole topic could be summed up by stating that: as long as the health worker is professional, caring and gentle, it is unimportant what gender they are.  The most important consideration is the feelings of the patient, who may or may not be in great stress over whatever proceedure they must endure.  So, empathy and understanding are paramount. Peace, ummziba.

Agree

Israfil, I do wish at times you could wait till I responded  I have to go back to this first post of yours and not the lastest one, I've worked my self up for it

Israfil wrote: Angel you said: >>>I personally think OB/GYN should be left to women<<< I personally think that is a sexist comment LOL

probably can I laugh with you ?

Angel you said: >>>Well, yes and you say the knowledge of a female gynecologist and male gyneocologist are the same, physically yes but a woman does have an advantage over a male somewhat <<<< This is true for both men and women....Women don't know the mind of men as all men think differently just as all women think differently ( i mean different in the sense of individual personality). As far as human anatomy yes there is the advantage because men do not go through life cycles like women yes in this manner I agree.

When I said a female has an advantage over a male somewhat I was leading to below comment of mine.

How can I explain, I don't know if I can, its just something there among women that they don't need to speak, but with men you need to talk and explain and try to get them to understand as to what you are going thru. Its the same for men who have prostrate problems women don't know or understand all entirely, this, male doctors has advantage over a female doctor. You agree? Can you see what I'm getting at? (heck I'm trying to explain to a man about women lol!  ) While I sit here agree with you about the sandwich maker and with Kim, Jenni and Lameese that it doesn't matter who you see (as women can be rough while a man can be gentle) as long they do there job and in a professional matter and that they have seen millions of patients that to the doctor it's nothing. 

Angel said: >>>Women understand women better on an emotional and intutive level this is where and what women want most of all<<< This may be true but this is an assumption of the negative because you're saying that male gynecologist do not understand women or just some? Overall those are good points but to me that is kind of sexist. Sister Ummziba came from the Quranic standpoint because she believes that the examination of the woman's genitalia (yes I am being grammatically brutal here don't be squeemish!) is not modest if the male doctor is examining but as Kim says they are just patients.

It's not an assumption of the negative nor is it a sexist thing, women offer women something that men cannot. But will add, as I said that some women don't understand other women.

I've been thru this when I've tried to talk about my periods to a woman doctor, they don't get it because they do not go thru what you go thru. So anyway......

Each examination is meant to save your life so why does it matter what sex they are?

It doesn't, I know I said personally I perfer women but I also said later: I often think I perfer a woman examining me but honestly I would just want a doctor that is sensitive and gentle towards me. and also up with the world and the advance in the medical profession.

When I said 'a doctor' I meant either gender  males do get to know certain things over time by seeing many female patients.

Since I mentioned to kim, "quite true" does not that also make me agree with your sandwich maker?  Along with Lameese and Jenni?

Now you ladies mention the standpoint of emotion.... Ok let's go there then. Yes its understandable and true that women are attentive to other women. I believe the connection of understanding is there, but I don't believe that it should have any bearing on sex because the male doctor can be as emotionally inclined as the female. Ladies there are some sensitive men in the world!!!!!!

we know :) 

Again ladies as Kim mentions these individuals both men and women, ar skilled at what they do have performed many examinations over and over and over. Comfort level has no comparison to one who can possibly save your life. To me I'd rather choose a highly skilled doctor be it male or female.

And didn't I agree?......

Bismillah,

I prefer a female nurse practitioner for many reasons, but mostly because I have found them to be caring and knowledgeable about the things that are important to me. (It's not just about the exam!)

A person can make a thousand sandwiches and still be bad at it. (Personal referrals and research into the person's medical background are important.)

I do remind the sisters that if we are to respond to one another please greet As'Salaamu Alaikum when responding to your fellow bro/sis including us brothers when responding to sisters......

Sister Herjihad two things in your post starting with your first:

 >>>>I prefer a female nurse practitioner for many reasons, but mostly because I have found them to be caring and knowledgeable about the things that are important to me. (It's not just about the exam!)<<<<<

Two things again as I mentioned do you know that male nurses are not as knowledgable about the things important to you or is this because you prefer female nurses for comfort level? Sisters if this so call it how it is. Because the things that are important such as emotional feeling ( in regards to a certain illness or pain in which is align with the practice of the nurse/doctor) I believe a male doctor can answer just as good as the female. As you say its not about the exam but then again other than for the purpose of health why would you consult a doctor?

Second you said:

>>>A person can make a thousand sandwiches and still be bad at it. (Personal referrals and research into the person's medical background are important.)<<<<

I have many friends who ar ein the medical field and some are doctors and some are nurses and all of them went through hell just to complete their boards/MCAT. Just to get a laminated license thes epeople went through a combined 15 years of med-school/nursing school! Now you use my metaphor in saying one can make a thousand sandwiches and still be bad I doubt it. If that is the case not only is the hospital at fault for hiring that person but the person's license can be revoked. The business of health is serious because it deals with our mortality. I don't think there is room for error (if you are a good nurse/doctor) so here I disagree sister.

Bismillah,

The female nurse practicioners whom I have seen can relate to my experiences on a more personal level, physically and emotionally, because they are female and have every time been mothers like me.

Have you heard of medical malpractice?  We need to be careful of the professionals qualifications and check them out.  Specifically, in actual practice some medical professionals who examine people are clumsy and inept.  Many aren't.  That's to the sandwich analogy.  It's sad that they spent so long in school but they aren't listening to the people they are supposed to be helping.  Now, many doctors are great.  They just aren't all great.

Bismillah,

Salaams,

As Lameese said she is very happy with her male doctor, so many people must be also.  It takes more effort for a man to relate to women's issues than a woman.  So it's really great if a man does this.

 Just as I prefer a female doctor/nurse practitioner, I also prefer female friends.  When I see a doctor or nurse even just for a shot, we often talk about life issues, either personal or not, and I prefer to talk to a lady because she has more similar life experiences with me.

And many doctors are not sued for their misconduct.  This is shown by the fact that doctors who are sued often have new cases come up from many years earlier from patients who felt no one would believe them.  I was just reading about a case today in which a doctor in an emergency room conducted personal female examinations with a nurse present who is being sued by two patients from the same night's work.  (He was let go after one nights' work also.)

It just takes a minute for abuse to occur, and that's why I advocate researching a doctor's background and record before going to someone for personal examinations.  Especially if it's a man.

Now deep down the feelings some of you have upsets me. First it starts off as preference but as you sisters with the exception of a few here explain yourself more it sounds more of sexism than anything. Now this perhaps is unintentional because you have your beliefs and you align them with Islam which is understandable. But if you have left it as a preference then I would as a man except that logically, but its illogical to say (in my humble opposition) that backgrounds should be checked especially if you're a man!

This raies another issue within our community we (and I'm making up a word here) hyper-genderize our society. This has nothing to do with mizing but in regards to daily issues concerning ourselves. We are too afriad to talk openly about sex because of culture (non-Islamic that is) we do not discuss openly what bothers us mentally. We do not try to understand each other. Perhaps this is the only and open prt of our community that bothers me. We most of the times try to separate ourselves rather than unify ourselves and again this is not about mixing. This reminds me of a sister today whom I said As'Salaamu Alaikum all the time I see her at work yet she never looks at me nor greets me back. again this has nothing to do with mixing or lust but of respect to her I greeted her and according to our faith it is mandatory to greet back.

To me I have an edge in the sense. Because I was raised by a woman I understand (as I am myself) sensitivity and about certain issues that women deal with regardless of ethinicity. I believe that the issues dealing with women are historical and modern as well as personal and emotional on all fronts. But herjihad I raise the question as well as you other women how can you expect a man to learn and understand you if you choose to be seperate from him? Again this is not mixing....I've said this so many times so I hope non of you sisters turn this as a way of mixing. This is the one thing I respect of non-Muslim women is that most do ask questions about what men need and expect of women. No offense sisters but herjihad that really bothers me......

Israfil wrote: but its illogical to say (in my humble opposition) that backgrounds should be checked especially if you're a man!

I agree with you, background checks should be done on both genders.

(and I'm making up a word here) hyper-genderize

better watch out, they'll put that in the dictionary next time  

The rest of your post, I agree with.

Israfil, i think you need to understand, if women perfer women because it makes them feel better then it should be fine, whether you think or see it as sexism is not really the point. I'm sure, no I know infact, there are many men who perfer to see men on some certain issues because they feel more better and comfortable and not to do with sexism.

Yes, I'm pretty sure when it comes to emergencies then either gender will be fine or will have to do because all that matters is, is your health.

Herjihad, do not think that malpractice also happens with female doctors ?

herjihad wrote: Just as I prefer a female doctor/nurse practitioner, I also prefer female friends.

I have nothing wrong with your preferences, as I do agree with them, but please tell me, how do you get to know the opposite gender if you don't share, or expect them to get to know and understand you? 

Israfil wrote: so in reality we are all in agreement here then....

yep  

Bismillah,

Salaams,

Specifically sexual assault in the medical field is perpetrated by men in numbers significantly increased over that of women similar to the main population in America and the world over.  The numbers tell me that statistically it is safer to be seen by a female medical professional where my privates are concerned.  Also, as I said, I simply prefer the company of women to that of men.  I enjoy talking with my female nurse practitioners.  I have seen male doctors and they were polite and informative.

Men should study and practice all fields of the medical profession, just as women should.  The more knowledge the better.  There are enough women who don't mind seeing a male, or who indeed prefer it for my preference to be statistically non-significant.

Personally, the way I pick my OB/GYN is calling professional organizations and basing my choice off of years of experience, complaints filed to the AMA and the State Medical Boards.  I research my doctors and know where they studied, how long they have been in practice and what their specialties are.  I do not regard sex when it comes to my health and given a miracle the health of my unborn.  I had a male doctor and a female doctor both miss a critical condition I had and now that my condition is advanced it is very unlikely I will have children.  I will not make that mistake again.  My current doctor has been in business for 27 years, I know where he's studied and I know that he's retired from deliveries.  He now focuses on health and fertility.  One of the other doctors in his office will take over my care if I should have a child on the way.  Women in the USA should take advantage of information services to pick the best educated and experienced doctors, and if she prefers a woman, still check out the educational background of that doctor. 

Unfortunately, in foreign countries, where in many cases women are denied education, they may not have those choices.  They may be stuck with the village midwife or the male doctor who studied in a foreign land.  We sometimes do not realize how good we have it when we make these choices.  To better our communities all over the world we should support the education of female doctors all over the globe. 

In the end when it comes to medicine, education is the answer.

Bismillah,

That's a great approach, Angela, for places where it is possible and for people who can accomplish it.  I preferred my second midwife because she had eight children herself.  This is an important type of experience for someone to have for childbirth.  Being close to a hospital and having a midwife who works easily with the local hospitals and doctors is vital.

Getting to know the opposite gender. Well, why is this important?  Getting to know anyone can be difficult.  I know my friend's husband pretty well because he is has an open personality.  Anyone could know him who wants to.

I can sugggest Dr.Oetker for our sisters,well respected doctor of all times....

http://www.oetker.co.uk/webgate/UK/OetkerENG_WG5_3.nsf/FrameByKey/ACIA-5AYKY4-ENG-p - http://www.oetker.co.uk/webgate/UK/OetkerENG_WG5_3.nsf/Frame ByKey/ACIA-5AYKY4-ENG-p