Asalamwalekum...!

 I appologize, if this has been posted before but I was wondering if it is permitted in Islam to marry someone of the Jewish, or Christian faith. My question is, why does this not apply to females...or are they too permitted to marry the people of the book, aslong as certain guidelines are met?

I'm sorry if this upsets anyone's sentiments, but I genuinely would like to know.

Godbless...

-Sister Sadaf

Throughout history, males have been the more dominant sex in the Middle Easter cultures. This was (and still is) true in Arabia. So when a man marries a women, he has more control over his children in terms of how they are brought up. If the man is Muslim, his children are more likely to be Muslim too. If the women is Muslim but the man isn't, then chances are the children would not be brought up as Muslims.

Ever noticed how the pagans always opposed Muhammad because he was changing the religion of "their forefathers."? (e.g. verse 5.104). This shows how it must've been the religion of the fathers that's "inherited".

And to answer your question, yes, Muslim men are allowed to marry any women, provided the children will be brought up as Muslims. Practically though, the wife would most likely convert as well.

Dues if I may correct you you said:

>>>Muslim men are allowed to marry any women,<<<

Now as you may well know Muslim men are only limited to Jewish and Christian women now as far as the history of that there could be reasons other than what you've stated I don't persume to know that maybe you shouldn't either unless research is done and you are sure.

Israfil wrote: Now as you may well know Muslim men are only limited to Jewish and Christian women now as far as the history of that there could be reasons other than what you've stated I don't persume to know that maybe you shouldn't either unless research is done and you are sure.

There we go again. So people who are of non-Abrahamic religions are somehow not people? This is nonsense. Allah has created all beings, so how can someone be less than the favored ones.

It seems to me, that the consortium of people who collaborated (I could say conspired, but won't) who wrote Quran, were politically very astute people. They didn't have to deal with the multitudes of Hindus (Indians), Buddhists (Chinese and other orientals) and assortment of other beliefs (Africans, native Americans etc), so they didn't include those people in the faith. The other possibility is that they were unaware of the existence of these people as well. This clearly shows the limitations of Quran.

Human

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

human wrote: Israfil wrote: Now as you may well know Muslim men are only limited to Jewish and Christian women now as far as the history of that there could be reasons other than what you've stated I don't persume to know that maybe you shouldn't either unless research is done and you are sure. There we go again. So people who are of non-Abrahamic religions are somehow not people?

Hmm. Either your comprehension is bad or mine. However I am unable to read in the above statement any insinuation towards polytheists as "non-human".

Could you please help me understand the methodology that let u arrive to this conclusion ?

human wrote: This is nonsense. Allah has created all beings, so how can someone be less than the favored ones.

Ofcourse concluding the difference in faith as somehow making a person "lesser" in anatomy and physiology than the usual homo sapiens should be regarded as nonsense if not a deliberate attempt to falsify intentions.

human wrote: It seems to me, that the consortium of people who collaborated (I could say conspired, but won't) who wrote Quran, were politically very astute people. They didn't have to deal with the multitudes of Hindus (Indians), Buddhists (Chinese and other orientals) and assortment of other beliefs (Africans, native Americans etc), so they didn't include those people in the faith. The other possibility is that they were unaware of the existence of these people as well. This clearly shows the limitations of Quran.

The Quran addresses as "ya bani adam"  ie O children of Adam. ... now are you yourself telling the forum that people of other faiths are not children of Adam?

Then it goes to classify the children of Adam further to Bani isreal, Nasara, Kafiroon, mushriqoon, Fasiqoon, Mu'minoon. You think the polytheists are not addressed in the Quran, but then you did not even read a simple comment posted here correctly ... so no surprise.

Peace,

Nausheen

Nausheen,

Thanks for your comments. Let's examine what I wrote:

human wrote: Israfil wrote: Now as you may well know Muslim men are only limited to Jewish and Christian women now as far as the history of that there could be reasons other than what you've stated I don't persume to know that maybe you shouldn't either unless research is done and you are sure. There we go again. So people who are of non-Abrahamic religions are somehow not people?

There is a possibility that I misread or misinterpreted what Israfil said. He said, muslim men are limited (in addition to muslim women) to christian or jewish women for marriage. There is a strong tendency amongst muslims to accept whatever Quran says in toto, so I assumed if this statement was meant to be from Quran, then the author endorses that view. I could be wrong, perhaps Israfil can clarify.

Having said that, within Quran itself, and by extension I have seen many muslims referring to the "people of the book" more favorably and other (2/3rds of the population on earth) barely deserving a mention.

human wrote: It seems to me, that the consortium of people who collaborated (I could say conspired, but won't) who wrote Quran, were politically very astute people. They didn't have to deal with the multitudes of Hindus (Indians), Buddhists (Chinese and other orientals) and assortment of other beliefs (Africans, native Americans etc), so they didn't include those people in the faith. The other possibility is that they were unaware of the existence of these people as well. This clearly shows the limitations of Quran.

Nausheen wrote: The Quran addresses as "ya bani adam"  ie O children of Adam. ... now are you yourself telling the forum that people of other faiths are not children of Adam? Then it goes to classify the children of Adam further to Bani isreal, Nasara, Kafiroon, mushriqoon, Fasiqoon, Mu'minoon. You think the polytheists are not addressed in the Quran, but then you did not even read a simple comment posted here correctly ... so no surprise. Peace, Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

human wrote: There is a possibility that I misread or misinterpreted what Israfil said. He said, muslim men are limited (in addition to muslim women) to christian or jewish women for marriage. There is a strong tendency amongst muslims to accept whatever Quran says in toto, so I assumed if this statement was meant to be from Quran, then the author endorses that view. I could be wrong, perhaps Israfil can clarify.

Muslim men should not marry other than muslim, jews, and christians ... this does not mean others are somehow less human. I fail to comprehend how this islamic law can metamorphose all polytheists into orangutans or something similar. 

human wrote: By Adam if you mean, a metaphorical Adam, then I agree with you. It is more likely to be a metaphorical Eve actually who is considered our ancestor, if you ask the archeologists but that's another debate.

Science has accepted the existence of Adam and Eve. They are not metaphores but ancestors of human race. I can show you evidences in peer reviewed articles on Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA (if you like).

human wrote: Otherwise, you must know, Hindus and Buddhists do not believe in the story that there was an Adam and Eve.

If they do not believe in something, it does not mean the Quran has taken them out of the species of Homo sapiens. It rather means, they read themselves as out of the human race, while reading the Quran. So the problems basically lies in their belief rather than in ours.

human wrote: Polytheists are addressed in Quran, but there is no mention of prophets, saints and reincarnations of God that Hindus and Buddhists believe in. Some vague references to polytheists doesn't do justice to rich mythology and history of the eastern religions.

The Gods that Hindus believe in are called associates or partners to Allah, and these are mentioned not once but several times. If you think the mention of partners to Allah is a vague referal, then you are gain wrong.

Again, vague mention of some mythology does not make the believers of that mythology metamorphose into orangutans, unless you insist on doing so.

Peace,

Nausheen

As'Salaamu Alaikum Muslims!

Sister Nausheen pretty much summed it up but I do wish to clarify ony my behalf on this subject. When I said Muslim men are limited to Christian and Jewish men as you mention these are in addition to the marriage of Muslim women. It is preferred (as the Qur'an states) that Muslim men marry Muslim women as there is no debate on later, the religions of the children as there would be in non-Muslim relationships.

This in anyway states that all other humans on this planet that are non-Muslim "less human" God is the Lord of all creation be it human, insect, veggie, atom you name it. I identify all other beings as humans and no human on this earth regardless of religious affiliation is less than that.

Human you indeed misinterpreted as something else!

Nausheen wrote: Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim, Muslim men should not marry other than muslim, jews, and christians ... this does not mean others are somehow less human. I fail to comprehend how this islamic law can metamorphose all polytheists into orangutans or something similar.

That statement says there is something inferior about people of other faiths. It just amazes me that some people believe that God will instruct his own creations to treat his other creations in this way.

Nausheen wrote: Science has accepted the existence of Adam and Eve. They are not metaphores but ancestors of human race. I can show you evidences in peer reviewed articles on Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA (if you like).

I am aware of what you are talking about. Even thought they have found the fossils of an ancestor woman (mind you, no man yet) in Africa, it doesn't prove that she was the only "person" in that locality. In fact she was probably one of the many living in that area and it was a coincidence that they found her fossils alone. So this doesn't necessarily prove that she was the first creation of a human being by God. Typical example of the faithful co-opting science to their own ends!

Nausheen wrote: If they do not believe in something, it does not mean the Quran has taken them out of the species of Homo sapiens. It rather means, they read themselves as out of the human race, while reading the Quran. So the problems basically lies in their belief rather than in ours.

It just goes to show the ignorance of original compilers of Quran about the geography of the world at the time. It is not surprising that they didn't know much about the existence of Hindu and Buddhist faiths at that time because of lack of communication and interaction. It also goes to show the human origin of Quran, though inspired that it might be.

Nausheen wrote: The Gods that Hindus believe in are called associates or partners to Allah, and these are mentioned not once but several times. If you think the mention of partners to Allah is a vague referal, then you are gain wrong. Again, vague mention of some mythology does not make the believers of that mythology metamorphose into orangutans, unless you insist on doing so. Peace, Nausheen

The term "partners of Allah" is a generic term and that can include any God ever conceived anywhere in the world. So it doen't "prove" that the compilers of Quran knew about the oriental religions or their Gods.

I never used the word orangutans. Islam created an artificial class system by discriminating against people of non-Abrahamic faith. This is also proved by references within Quran to slaves and gentle imploration on people who owned slaves to release them. However when it comes to people who commit adultary or theft, the tone is not so gentle. That clearly shows it does discriminate against certain class of people.

Human

Israfil wrote: As'Salaamu Alaikum Muslims! Sister Nausheen pretty much summed it up but I do wish to clarify ony my behalf on this subject. When I said Muslim men are limited to Christian and Jewish men as you mention these are in addition to the marriage of Muslim women. It is preferred (as the Qur'an states) that Muslim men marry Muslim women as there is no debate on later, the religions of the children as there would be in non-Muslim relationships. This in anyway states that all other humans on this planet that are non-Muslim "less human" God is the Lord of all creation be it human, insect, veggie, atom you name it. I identify all other beings as humans and no human on this earth regardless of religious affiliation is less than that. Human you indeed misinterpreted as something else!

Israfil, I did not insinuate that you consider other human beings as less than equal. I am saying, Quran itself discriminates against people of non-Abrahamic religion by stopping muslims from marrying them. Love indeed happens spontaneously between two people, and even amongst non-Abrahamic religions, there could be people believing in one God (though not necessarily believing that Muhammad was a prophet). Their faith or lack of it could not possibly make them unsuitable.

Thanks for your clarification.

Regards,

Human

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Human wrote: That clearly shows it does discriminate against certain class of people.

Discrimination does not mean dehumanization of people. Had you used the word discrimination in the first place the shade of argument would have been different.

Allah does discriminate between those who obey Him from those who disobey. - This aches and hurts the disobedient - among these who are granted wisdom, want to learn more in sincerity and turn to obedience, whereas, other unfortunate ones persist in disobedience and continue to bother the believers about this entire affair.

In reality the affair of believers is to obey Allah. As for how He treats his believing and disbelieving creations, is an affair entirely in His hands.

Peace,

Nausheen

Nausheen wrote: Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim, Human wrote: That clearly shows it does discriminate against certain class of people. Discrimination does not mean dehumanization of people. Had you used the word discrimination in the first place the shade of argument would have been different. Allah does discriminate between those who obey Him from those who disobey. - This aches and hurts the disobedient - among these who are granted wisdom, want to learn more in sincerity and turn to obedience, whereas, other unfortunate ones persist in disobedience and continue to bother the believers about this entire affair. In reality the affair of believers is to obey Allah. As for how He treats his believing and disbelieving creations, is an affair entirely in His hands. Peace, Nausheen

I don't care what Allah does or does not do. I have argued elsewhere that all Gods that we know of are nothing but human creations. We do not and can't know true God. My God does not discriminate against anyone, no matter what their faith.

My concern is that young people get the message, if Allah discriminate against people of other faiths, they must be lacking something. Definitely that is one of the things that helps the suicide bombers opt for martyrdom. It must be okay to kill those who lack something. It is clear to me from these discussions that even "moderate" muslims support the idea that Allah somehow discriminates against human beings.

Regards,

Human

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

human wrote: My God does not discriminate against anyone, no matter what their faith.

You worship your Lord, and I worship my Lord. You will not worship my Lord and I will not worship your Lord. To you is your faith, and to me is mine.

human wrote: My concern is that young people get the message, if Allah discriminate against people of other faiths, they must be lacking something.

They lack obedience to their Creator, and are devoid of guidence from Him. Yet the channel of His compassion and mercy is not closed on them.

human wrote: Definitely that is one of the things that helps the suicide bombers opt for martyrdom. It must be okay to kill those who lack something.

I will not rule this out as one of the reasons for suicide bombers. This scam of producing suicide bombers is quite complicated and uses not one but many premises that precipitate in such henious crimes.

However anything can be twisted and tortured to give a different meaning than the truth. We cannot blame the truth for these methodologies.

human wrote: It is clear to me from these discussions that even "moderate" muslims support the idea that Allah somehow discriminates against human beings.

I consider myself a muslim. Nothing before or after the title. moderate or fundamental, or extreem etc are titles that lable people who pick and choose from faith that which convinces their pysche, while leaving the rest.

For a Muslim, islam is the complete way of life and he/she should strive to adopt the deen as a complete way, not in portions.

Peace,

Nausheen

As Salam o alikum

Why a muslim man can marry a Jewish or Christian women while at the same time a Muslim women can't marry a Jewish or Christian man??

We Muslims consider Moses and Jesus as sacred messengers of God like of Muhammad (may peace be them on all) and give them all the same and utmost respect. So once a Christian or Jewish girl marries a Muslim man she gets same amounts of respect for the messangers of her faith by the muslim family. On the other hand Jews and Christians not only undermine the position of Prophet Muhammed but rather mostly say things about him which are simply intolerable by muslims therefore we can well imagine the emotional, psycological and religious pain which a muslim women would face at the hands of a of Jewish or Christian family. Even her own children would possibly say such like things because usually children follow the faith of thier father. Thus she has been forbidden to marry a man of Jewish or Christian or any other faith.

Moreover a muslim man can only marry a jewish or christian women and not to an atheist or those who assosiate partner with God even if she is born out of a Jewish or Christian family (like most christian consider Jesus as son of god or some Jews consider Aziz as son of god and the angels as daughters). Marrying with any of these women won't be permissible for a muslim man.

God do not differentiate between humans otherwise those who don't believe in God or associate partners with God would have starved on earth. However he has set certain rules and regulations for those who submit to God and follow His instructions as to how they must conduct themselves in their daily lives. But this is purely on voluntairly basis no one is forced to do that he simply do it for his own benifit. Thus we are told to be careful from those people who disbelieve God and should never trust them blindly because most of the time they would try to harm us or to deal with us as of enemy. The prevailing turmoil is sufficient to prove the fact that as a general rule this is true. However there were and would always be exceptions to this rule.

Shams Zaman ( mailto:[email protected] - [email protected] )

Pakistan  

 Surprise, surprise again, again !! Is a Moslem man allowed to marry a Jewish and Christian woman ? Where can I find the verses in the Qur'an underlying this?

Why isn't it allowed here in my country? No Moslem, man or woman, is permitted to marry some from another faith !! They has even made this a STATE LAW, but as explained, based on Islamic law ...... Just last month a Christian niece [of a friend of mine] went to marry her Moslem boyfriend in Singapore ....... [And our government cannot annul that marriage because it recognises marriages under each foreign nations laws .....]

It is truly confusing, bewildering, baffling to discover that there are so many versions of daily Islamic life ? Or are these variations only a product of the human mind?

Sorry, I do not intend to offend nobody, but am just trying to understand Islam better.

Have a nice weekend everybody!

Tom.-

Thanks alot for your input everybody! Reading all of the replies, was truly insightful.

 I would just like to add, that I have been reading about Dr. Zakir Naik's impeccable knowledge regarding Islam, and many misconceptions online...and I have started to watch indepth debates, on Television aswell.

 I was interested in knowing about his take on this issue, and based on the Verses that he obtained from the Glorious Holy Qu'ran, Allah S.W.T doesn't condemn marriages of men with women from the people of the book. Provided that they're believers and don't associate any partners with the one true God:

�And (Lawful in marriage are) chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you��

[Surah Al-Maidah 5:5]

�Among them (Jews and the Christians) are believers but most of them are defiantly disobedient.� [Surah Ali Imran 3:110]

�And do not marry Mushrik (polytheistic) women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you.�

[Surah Al-Baqarah 2:221]

�They (Jews and the Christians) have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.� [Surah At-Tawbah 9:31]

�They have certainly disbelieved who say, �Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary� while the Messiah has said, �O children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.� Indeed he who associates other with Allah � Allah has forbidden him paradise and his refuge is the fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.� [Surah Al-Maidah 5:72]

Thanks Sister Sadaf [SS] for the verses :

But the reality is very much different. 

So what is your comment on that?

And then : any law or regulation that prohibits a man from marrying a Jewish or Christian woman is not Qur'an based, is just a human rule?

Thanks.

Tom.-

Another question:

SS, I take it that Moslem women are prohibited from marrying Jewish or Christian men? Would you, again, quote the underlying verses in the Qur'an?

Thanks,

Tom.-

I don't understand how anybody could deny the verses of the Holy Qur'an and deem them false, especially when it was written by Allah S.W.T and not a mere mortal.

But the reality is very much different.

What's the source of this opinion of yours? Meaning, what is the actual reality, and what do you base it on?

Well SS, the reality that I already mentioned in my posting of Sept 2 : That a Moslem man in my country is definitely NOT ALLOWED TO MARRY A CHRISTIAN WOMAN.

The reality that exists now, in my day-to-day actual life. And it is not an opinion, but just a simple statement of a simple observation of a simple fact. So, what is your comment on this fact that it is not compatible with what the Qur'an says elucidation above?

There is still another question of mine unanwered : where in the Qur'an can I find verses which forbid Moslem women to marry Jewish and Christian men?

Thanks,

Tom.-

I have personally encounter marriages where someone is Chritian and someone is Muslim and they raise their children in both Faiths and they are happy

Right, in "your country". Among other things, you must have also observed many people from your nation not practicing Islam the way it should as outlined in the Holy Qur'an and the beautiful Hadeeths. However, defining a religion based on the actions of how a few people practice Islam will not get anyone, anywhere in trying to understand the essence of the faith...not just Islam alone, be it any religion! To truly understand it, we have to go back to the sacred scriptures and do our own research to grasp it's knowledge. Because many a times, we err in the way we conduct our religious lives.

 I have already outlined the verses from the Qur'an regarding marriages... That "rule" (if you will) from your country that forbids Muslim men from marrying Christian women is more cultural, as opposed to religious.

I feel that if Allah brings two people together with love then it is bettween them and Allah and other people should not interfer.

If a mixed couple can raise their children to respect both religions then why not.

There is hope and it begins with each of us and people and Nations should work at respecting some of these basis rights and choices and not try to stop people from loving one another just because they are different religions.

Why is it that when there are some things different or new some people try and distroy it?

I think what they are really afraid of is that things will change and be different in our societies and families maybe they are scared of being more caring and compassionate.

Being more caring and compassionate is important.

Islam is not contained in a single Book Islam is life itself and there are many expressions of the evolution of Islam and people need to evolve to a higher spiritual level and from what I have seen some people are choosing to act worse than animals all because they say their religion says this or that.

Your religion is no excuse for bad behavior or being disrespectful of others rights and freedom.

I would say that religious Muslims would be serving Allah and Mankind more by abiding by the Human Rights Act which is a docuement that comes from Allah too for all the people.

Islam is changing and will change it has to for Mankind to continue to progress.

Allah is talking to us all the time if we listen and consider the lesson or test in each thought, action or behavior.

If people think Islam is only in one Book then Islam will never be able to meet the needs of an evolving society and Nations.

As some laws that were accepted in 600 Ad are not accepted now and therefore work must be done to make changes to out dated laws that are throwing people back to the stone age.

Allah is most Merciful and Hid revealations will never stop as long as there is a person alive to Hear Him.

This is in part My Islam, the Islam I believe in.

So as far as I am concerned if two people love one another and they want to marry they should be allowed with the encouragement of their families, friends and community.

I heard someone once say there can be unity in diversity and I believe this is true.

To me Islam is not in a box where there is no room to grow or evolve, no Islam is much bigger than even your imagination can imagine.

Islam is not just because you choose to pray five times a day it is gaurdian over people of all religions and those with none.

Allah breathed of His Spirit into all creation not just some of it and all creation has a purpose and a duty.

It is up to Mankind to call all Mankind to the table and address major issues that are disturbing the world like people need to learn Healthy Boundaries, Good Communications Skills, Good Conflict Resolution Skills, Have better access to training and education, parenting skills training as well as an economy where everyone has a job and a purpose.

Even the most ill among us have a purpose and that is for us to show our humanity and care for them as best we can and comfort them and their families.

All life is a test just like Moses was tested on the Mountain, Jesus in the desert, Mohammed in the caves and Buddha under the Bodhi Tree we are tested in our daily lives and that is why we need excellence in education and training to deal with all the tests we have in our lives.

So that we would never harm anyone because we angry or upset or do not understand.

As I see it too many people are using bad behavior for a lack of good education and counseling.

As I said there is hope and it begins with each of us for we contain the Spirit Allah breathed into us at our creation and He would not give us life if we were useless or worthless.

Therefor whether it is marriage or other things we have to truely and carefully ask ourselves is it our right to interfer.

Marriage is bettween the two in love and Allah, of course if the man was really violent and abusive then the woman should be protected from him and he should get some training in Healthy Boundaries, Good Communications Skills, Good Conflict resolution Skills and he should be made aware if he mistreats His wife he will have to go to futrther trianing or even jail.

Thanks SS for your very clear and beautiful response. But, don't close your eyes, : it is LAW here in my country, and, according to our law scholars, based on Islam......

I was just trying to show that we human beings, Moslems, Christians and all other followers of other faiths alike, tend, being human, to speak for God himself, as the reality shows. There are lots of Christians too who "know better" than God, who make laws in the name of God, which is not the word of God, which is not in the Bible. And in our example, it is then also true for the Moslems ....

I try to lead my life based only on the principle that only the word of God we must implement, and not what human beings have invented.

And here I try to speak for everybody else of any other faith, including Islam. That we have to base our religious lives on what God is saying, in the Bible, or in the Qur'an.

That 's why I find it very queer to read AMLHabibie's telling us on "... my Islam.." Your Islam AMLH ? What do you mean by that ? Isn't it more better "God's Islam"? Consequently, whether God says in the Qur'an if it is OK if a Moslem marries someone of another faith?

Returning to our topic: There is the other question that I asked which has not been answered yet : where is it stipulated in the Qir'an, which verses, that a Moslem woman is not allowed to marry a man from any other faith?

Thanks,

Tom.-

 In the Name of All�h, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Hello Thomas

Here are the Verses from the Holy Quran which expressly prohibit marriage of muslim women to the kuffaar (disbelievers). Allah says in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

2:221. And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikun) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember. 

24:3. The adulterer marries not but an adulteress or a Mushrikah and the adulteress none marries her except an adulterer or a Muskrik [and that means that the man who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan or idolatress) or a
prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer, or a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater, etc.) And the woman who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater) or an adulterer, then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan, or idolatress, etc.)]. Such a thing is
forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Monotheism).

60:10. O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them, All�h knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers, send them not back to the disbelievers, they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them. But give the disbelievers that (amount of money) which they have spent [as their Mahr] to them. And there will be no sin on you to marry them if you have paid their Mahr to them. Likewise hold not the disbelieving women as wives, and ask for (the return of) that which you have spent (as Mahr) and let them (the disbelievers, etc.) ask back for that which they have spent. That is the Judgement of All�h. He judges between you. And All�h is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

I hope you find the response helpful.

Regards,

Sarkeranwar

Salam Alaikoam

When I said my Islam I was refering to the fact that I believe Allah, God is merciful and wants His People to be Merciful to themselves and others also and some of the Islam I see and read is not merciful.

I believe Islam is always evovling and that we will become better people as a result.

I guess we have to carefully consider whether something is really from Allah or not.

Sakeranwar : thanks for the so many verses. The Mushriks, idolators are clear. But, who are those 'disbelievers' ? Christians and Jews ?

From so many postings and quotes I understand that the Qur'an says that Christians and Jews  are NOT considered to be 'disbelievers' ?

Are there verses in the Qur'an stating that disbelievers are, or, are NOT Christians and Jews?

Thanks,

Tom.-

thomas wrote: Sakeranwar : thanks for the so many verses. The Mushriks, idolators are clear. But, who are those 'disbelievers' ? Christians and Jews ? From so many postings and quotes I understand that the Qur'an says that Christians and Jews  are NOT considered to be 'disbelievers' ? Are there verses in the Qur'an stating that disbelievers are, or, are NOT Christians and Jews? Thanks, Tom.-

In the Name of All�h, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Hello Thomas

Whoever does not believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day (Day of Resurrection) and Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainments) is a disbeliever. Here are the evidences! Allah says in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

2:285. The Messenger (Muhammad SAW) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)."

4:136. O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and the Book (the Quran) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

54:49. Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation, as written in the Book of Decrees Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz).

57:22. No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.

64:11. No calamity befalls, but with the Leave [i.e. decision and Qadar (Divine Preordainments)] of Allah, and whosoever believes in Allah, He guides his heart [to the true Faith with certainty, i.e. what has befallen him was already written for him by Allah from the Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], and Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

Belief in Allah means belief in Allah's Oneness. He is One, the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks. He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.

If a person believes in Allah but asigns partner(s) to Him then this person is a kaafir (disbeliever).  A believer must believe in the Oneness of Allah, believe His Angels, His Books, His Messengers (peace be upon them all), the Day of Resurrection & the Divine Preordainments.

Jews and Christians are Kuffar (disbelievers) because

-they do not believe in Prophet Muhammd (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)

-they do not believe in the Holy Quran which is Allah's Book

-they assign partner(s) to Allah. Here some Verses in this effect! 

2:116. And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children or offspring). Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him.

9:30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

The above Verses are clear evidence that the Jews & Christians are disbelievers. Therefore, do not believe anyone who says that Jews and Christians are believers. If he insists then ask him to provide evidence from the Holy Quran and Sunnah.

I hope you will find above helpful!

Sakeranwar: thanks a lot for the verses ! It is really helpful, surely -- and very, very interesting --, but, in the sense, that I now see all the complications better .....

1. From the verses you quoted one can easily understand that Christians and Jews undoubtedly belong to the disbelievers. Because they don't believe in the Prophet Mohammad.

2. But what about the statement since the initiation of this topic that " a Moslem man can marry a Jew or a Christian woman? " I assume that this is based on the Qur'an. Which verses?

3. If the statement is NOT Qur'an based, no verses or implications whatever, then the picture is clear :   no Moslem man nor woman is allowed to marry a disbeliever, who is definitely someone of another faith, because the other faith clearly does not believe in the Prophet.

4.  If the statement is Qur'an based, with underlying verses, then logically the question that follows is : which rule/command should be followed, and why?

Note : on verse 5.73

 Fyi : Trinity does not mean God is 3. In very simple word, Trinity is only a description[and only a humanly created word]. Well, this has always been and still is, a very, very controversial issue between Christianity and other faiths especially Islam, but there is a special topic for discussion on this, I think and we can discuss this there]. I personally think that one would better understand the meaning of Trinity if one would read the whole, well, the relevant parts of, the Bible. God's numerous proclamations in the Bible of himself that he is the one and only God, is usually totally and simply ignored by non-Christians; why, I really cannot understand, ok, more at the more appropriate thread.

Sister Sadaf: Thanks for verses you've quoted. But, the verses you've quoted supporting the conclusion that Christians and Jews belong to the disbelievers, raises my question :

5. Is it possible that "... among them [Jews and Christians] are believers ...... " It is clearly contradictory and inconsistent that among the Jew and Christians, who are clearly disbelievers, are believers ??

6.  A short note on the possibility that "God is discriminative" :  Impossible, God to be discrminative. If he is discriminative then he is not God. [This statement is Bible based, God's word through the Bible] I think it is just a common human wishful [mis]interpretation of God's word, from what I know, in the Bible. It is usually always the human ego that wants to speak for God ......

Thanks,

Tom.-

Addendum: Israfil, Sakeranwar's quoted clearly indicated that Jews and Christians belong to the disbelievers. What verses do you base your understanding that Jews and Christians do NOT belong to the disbelievers?

Tom.-

In one Surah it says that Allah breathed of His Spirit into us at our creation and there for I believe that this means at our creation we are all equal neither believers or none believers in one sense but in the true sense I believe that before our soul enters our body we make Shadah in the Spiritual realms to Allah to be good and just people and it is the ignorance or apathy in the world that either turns us towards Him or turns us away and that even though we may reject Him he stills loves and cares for us.

As Allah never has breathed His Spirit into any of Creation that did not have meaning and purpose and He created all life to be respected and in this we cannot reject the evil doers for they need direction and guidance just as we all do.

I suppose it may make some of us feel better labeling others as less than ourselves and may make us feel more important or speacial however to Allah we all have an equal Station and Manifestation as His Messengers, His voice, His arms for doing, His voice for Speaking, His legs for walking and His presence for getting the work at hand done and not making any more excuses as to why not get on with the job of making ourselves and our world better people and better communities and families to live in.

Using a lame excuse like Oh their unbelievers is just a cop out and everyone must move past that and realize that each of our lives has many parables or stories from which to learn where we have done good and where we need assistance to meet any further challenges.

So there may be people who believe differently than we do and this is okay however if these people are called to the table, stake holders meetings on family, community and National issues and the facts are set on the table and remedies are set in place ie training in Healthy Boundaries, Good Communication Skills, Good Conflict Resolution Skills, Parenting Skills, Training in how to cope with the stages and levels of sexual frustration in humaine and caring ways so as to stem the tide of child sexual abuse, rape and relationships started for the wrong reasons and also people trained to respect the person they do decide to have sexual relations with whether it is within the bounds of marriage or not as well as fincial planning, education goal setting and education in how to move from being a couch potatoe to a healthy family and community participant.

No one is disposable everyone is key and important.

Imagine if just half the costs now spent on  poor health due to apathy and ignorance were turned around and people were healthier and less people were involved in crime and the money went into community programs such as free access to sporting activities, sports facilities, recreation areas and more parks for families and educational programs and more affordable food.

There is hope and it begins with each of us.

As I said people might believe differently but that is no cause for disrepecting them.

Labels such as Infidels, Kufar and unbelievers just turns people off from even thinking about taking a look at Islam so it is best not to use those terms as who wants to be called a bad name.

Salam Alaikoam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Well, according  Sakeranwar's post above, if you don't believe in the Prophet Mohammad, then you are a disbeliever, and he quoted several verses to underlying it. Please read Sakeranwar's extensive posting above.

How can then Jews and Christians NOT be disbelievers?

I am not trying just to argue for the sake of argumentation, no, the least of it. I am trying to know what exactly the Qur'an says about mixed marriages. I am trying to understand the Qur'an and Islam better.

And now I encounter difficulties to really understand on what the Qur'an exactly says about mixed marriages.

Thanks,

Tpm.-

In the Name of All�h, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Hello Thomas

Fisrtly I must congratulate you on your correct understanding! You are on the right track!!

If you are a true seeker of truth ( I believe you are!) then please keep in mind that Islam is based on the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (Peace & blessings of Allah be upon him). Nothing less & nothing more then that! Therefore, whatever people say in regard to any issue of Islam without proper evidence from the Holy Quran and Sunnah must be rejected. Please also note that the true muslims will never say something out of his own whims and desire when they talk about Islam. They will always support their statements with evidences from the Holy Quran and Sunnah. Therefore, you may disregard those who do not cite any evidence in support of their statements concerning Islam.

I think you should know that, according to Islam, all other religions are false and are rejected. The following post which was my response to a poster in another forum will make it clear Insha Allah: 

Sarkeranwar :

Am I on the right track?

Frankly, I don't know on which track I am .....Because according to the postings of Sister Sadaf, Israfil, Nausheen among others, then Jews and Christians don't belong to the disbelievers ....... Although, none of them has as yet provided me the verses in the Qur'an stating that explicitly, or perhaps implicit verses concluding that.

Would you perhaps comment on this? [Please read their postings.]

On your rather harsh comments on Yudaism and Christianity, I'll give my comments in the forum "Quran II" which I started. To give it here is a bit deviating.

Thanks.-

Tom.-

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Peace & blessings of Allah be upon our Prophet Muhammd.

thomas wrote: Sarkeranwar : Am I on the right track? Frankly, I don't know on which track I am .....Because according to the postings of Sister Sadaf, Israfil, Nausheen among others, then Jews and Christians don't belong to the disbelievers ....... Although, none of them has as yet provided me the verses in the Qur'an stating that explicitly, or perhaps implicit verses concluding that. Would you perhaps comment on this? [Please read their postings.] On your rather harsh comments on Yudaism and Christianity, I'll give my comments in the forum "Quran II" which I started. To give it here is a bit deviating. Thanks.- Tom.-

Hello Tom

Yes, you are on the right track in regard to your understanding of the Jews and Christians are being the kuffar (disbelivers).

I hope that my muslim brothers and sisters whom you have mentioned would read my posts and correct their misunderstandings in regard to the Jews and Christians, Insha Allah.

I have responded your said post under the other thread.

Regards,

Sarkeranwar  

Sakeranwar : Thanks for your firm answer, appreciate that.

I hope your fellow Moslem brother and sisters who differ from your opinion will give their responses. [I certainly cannot do that ...] They must have their own grounds for differing.

Best wishes.

Tom.-

PS Yes, thanks for your comments on the other thread.

In the Name of All�h, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

thomas wrote: Sakeranwar : Thanks for your firm answer, appreciate that. I hope your fellow Moslem brother and sisters who differ from your opinion will give their responses. [I certainly cannot do that ...] They must have their own grounds for differing. Best wishes. Tom.- PS Yes, thanks for your comments on the other thread.

Hello Tom

A minor but very important correction in regard to your understanding about "opinion" in Islam! Personal opinions are not accepted in Islam. Believers must not have any option but to follow that which Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) have decreed. Allah says in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning): 

33:36. It is not for a believer, man or woman, when All�h and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys All�h and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

Therefore, my statement regarding Jews and Christians being kuffar (disbelievers) is not my personal opinion. It is in line with the Book of Allah ( I have supported my statements with relevant Verses from the Holy Quran).

If any muslim refuses to accept that the Jews and Christians are kuffar as Allah has made clear in the Holy Quran then he /she has refused to accept Allah's revelation! It means that he/she has disbelieved in Allah's religion.

May Allah protect us from ignorance.    

Sakeranwar : accepted and understood.

I still hope to receive comments from those who have a different "perception" -- ? is this perhaps OK?

Thanks for the underlying verse.

Tom.-

Israfil : which are the verses in the Qur'an supporting your comments above?

Thanks.-

Tom.-

Israfil: I would appreciate it very much if you could prove your comments by doctrine.

Thanks.-

Tom.-

People should be able to marry anyone they want except young people under 16.

Other than that if the two people are mature and able to love one another, care about each other and empower each other to be the best they can be what difference does it matter what religion they have.

If they have respect for one another and each others beliefs then as I said they can build a strong foundation on this and decide possibly to educate the children in both religions so they may choose for themselves as Allah, God gives us the freedom to do so.

Maybe if more people did this then there would be less wars.

Anne Marie

amlhabibi2000 wrote:     People should be able to marry anyone they want except young people under 16. Other than that if the two people are mature and able to love one another, care about each other and empower each other to be the best they can be what difference does it matter what religion they have.

Yes Ann and the world would be a lot better if we all would be of the same religion, but, unfortunately we fight over whose right and wrong. We all must abide by the laws which God has set. If we deviate from that then we too will suffer the consequences due t our own ignorance. In regards to marriage what God has prescribed in the Qur'an is what he prescribes nothing more, nothing less.

Marriage is between two people and Allah, God that is it religion is only a small part of it.

I still believe that if two people love one another then respecting each others spiritual beliefs would make their relationship stronger and more spiritual.

I do not believe that it is right to prevent two people of different religions from marrying only because they have different religions.

I could see if they did not respect one another or there was abuse in the relationship, I could see preventing this kind of union but not just because they each have different religions.

We do not in these days stop people of other races from marrying so why would we prevent people of different religions if as I said if they respect each other and each others freedom to choose their religion and beliefs then their marriage and family would be a happy one.

Islam is not solely contain in books it is evolving and expressed in all of life and we have freedom to improve and make things better day by day. Inshallah.

Books do give us some guidance but when it is out dated it needs to be renewed and refreshed to address current times.  Doing this is a sign we respect Allah in creating us and He gives us a mind with potential for abundant learning and positive change and evolution of mankind in all that we do.

There is hope and it begins with each of us and we are meant to be gaurdians and care givers not not jailers, abusers or oppressors of anyone.

Boundaries are good but sometimes we need to learn new ones and this is good.

In undertaking to make the life of individuals and families happier there is no sin or fault in this and it means that there have to be changes made in the doctrines we follow and there is no fear in this from Allah as Allah wants us to have the best life and be the best people so renewing guidance is a good thing.

Guidance that educates people in healthy boundaris, good communication skills, good conflict resolution skills, parenting skills and education in how to cope with frustration and sexual frustration and the stages and levels of sexual frustration so that all people have the people skills needed to be good people and respect one another.

It is not just the Quran and Hadeath but the Bible and many other scriptures that need ajusting or rewriting to encorperate new education in how to deal with particular issues in a more humaine and caring manner.

To do this will take a cooperative effort however a good place to start is to abide by the Human Rights Act.

Anne Marie

Israfil: thank you for your clarification and verses supporting them [postings 13 and 15 Sept.]. If I have understood it rightly, then the verses you quoted state that Jews and Christians and Jews are NOT disbelievers? And so Moslem men are allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women?

Well, I would like to ask your attention to what Sakeranwar has explained in his posting of Sept 7 :

he states that Jews and Christians ARE disbelievers,because a.o. things that Jews and Christians do not believe in the Prophet, giving also the supporting verses.

Which of two statements are true? It would be very confusing for us, non-Moslems, to understand the matter.

How exactly should a non-Moslem view these perceptions, both based on the Qur'an?

There must be an explanation that should solve and the dual concepts ? And perhaps, perhaps, override one of them ?

This is a very interesting example -- for me personally at least -- on how such a matter should bve looked upon, to understand Islam better.

Thanks and best wishes,

Tom.-

Israfil : thank you for the extensive posting. Here are my comments:

1] You refute his statements, but using Bible verses . Not effective, I think. I, as a Christian, know those verses very well, but to refute his statements, you must quote from the Qur'an, if any.

And what is your personal, human, opinion versus God's word in the Qur'an? Yes, it is your logic and mind and brain which is responding, but it is against the word of God in the Qu'ran, and so not much worth.

I am quite familiar with the Bible verses that you quoted. But it would be irrelevant if I want to use them to refute Sakeranwar's statements. I am "on the other side".

You commented : " Since Islamic laws parallel this ...." , which laws? Please quote the verses.

Then :  " Again Jews may not follow the prophet Mohammad but they surely do not deny his existence."  Sure, they don't deny, but they do not believe in the prophet, as neither Christians. And that makes them, Jews and Christians, disbelievers, according to Sakeranwar, underlying his statement on verses in the Qur'an.

Yes, perhaps the "Nazarean Christians" is the group of Christians that belong to the believers, because they do not believe Jesus is the son of God. But mind you, they are not the Christians that we know  who believe that Jesus is the son of God.

So, it would be very, very interesting if there would be verses in the Qur'an, which explicitly, or even implicitly, state that Jews and Christians does NOT belong to the disbelievers.

All the best.

Tom.-

PS   I must compliment you for your knowledge of the Bible, and your mature and pleasant way of commenting.

In Islam, "People of the Book" are the Jews and the Christians, those who believe in the Books of All�h like T�rat and Inj�l revealed to Prophets Musa^(P) and Isa^(P) respectively. Marriage with women of the people of the Book if permitted in Islam according to the following injunction in the Qur'�n:

"This day are all things good and pure made lawful to you. The food of the people of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful unto you in marriage are not only chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the people of the Book revealed before your time, when you give them their due dowers, and desire chasity and not lewdness nor secret intrigues" ^[18]

There is a consensus of opinion of the Ulama of the Ahl al-Sunnah Wal-Jama'ah that marriage with Jews and Christian women is permitted as was the practise of the Companions of the Prophet^(R) (sahabah) like Uthm�n, Talh�, Ibn Abbas, Hudha�fah and their followers (tab�'�n) like Sa�d bin al-Musayy�b, Sa�d bin Juba�r, Al-Hasan, Mujah�d, Taw�s, Akramah and others.

Afshan

I think brother Israfil is quite correct in his understanding of not generalizing all Jews and Christians as unbelievers as opposed to brother Sarkaeranwar. In this direction, let me add a little to what brother Israfil has already provided a great deal of Quranic references.

 The whole crust of getting wrong by bro Sarkareanwar, I think, is his misunderstanding of the basic difference between a "Mushriq" and a "kafir". If you go back to bro Sarkareanwar's post on page 4 (his first one), one would realize that he is making a mistake in defining the Kafir where it should have been a "Mushirk". Here is his definition "If a person believes in Allah but asigns partner(s) to Him then this person is a kaafir (disbeliever)."  The correct definition for such a person, a polytheist, is  "Mushrik" and not "Kafir". But then who is a "kafir". According to Islamic scholars, a kafir is a person who, after recieving the message of Allah in its best possible form, rejects it. That person is then called a "kafir", he may be a polytheist or he may be from the people of the book. This is the core mistake in his understanding of various Quranic verses. Let us see how it makes a perfect sense:-

 Starting from his own statement, we find the definitions of a kafir i.e. non-believer, he says "Whoever does not believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day (Day of Resurrection) and Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainments) is a disbeliever." True; let that be the case, and then he forwards his quranic evidences by saying " Here are the evidences! Allah says in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning): ".

So, being a Christian, do you deny any one of these conditions? Explicitly, do you deny:
1) In the oneness of God.

2) His Angels. (e.g. Gaberial, etc.)

3) His messangers (e.g. Adam, Noah, Moses, etc)

4) The last day of Judgement i.e. the day of resurrection.

5). Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainments).

If your answer to any one of these conditions is yes, then, according to this definition, indeed you are called a Kafir. But, if not, then there is no other condition that can make you called as Kafir.

My bro Sarkareanwar, however, would be quick enough to bring in the issue of "Trinity" to declare any present Christian as "kafir", but the fact remains, has that condition of conveying you a perfect message of Allah been fullfilled? If not, then how can any sane person blame you of not believing? Yes, in the time of our beloved Prophet Mohammad, no person to whom he came across, could had this excuse. But its a totally a different situation as compared to the time when he is no more living on earth.

In the same way, bro Sarkareanwar has assumed that all Jews are enemy of Angel Jabreel and hence are Kafir. Here as well, he needs to account for different sects of Jews those who are not enemy of Angel Jabreel as well as the conditons of tranmission of perfect message of God to them.

 Is there any one who can claim to trasmit the message of Allah as perfectly as the messanger of Allah himself? I don't think so. It is in this situation and circumstances, there is hardly any non-Muslim to whom we can lable him as a "kafir" untill or unless someone really declares such a notion unequivocally, all by himself through his deeds or words.

This concept gains more support once we read all those Quranic verses that bro Israfil has quoted. Not to repeat all of them, but to the most direct evidence of this concept is

">>>>[003:113]  Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the
Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the
Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in
adoration. <<<<<< "

Is there any denying that Allah Himself have alluded that not all of them are alike? and yet we find my Bro Sarkareanwar so apt to classify them in one category as "non-believers".

On the more, such Christian communities, as bro Israfil has already provided the evidence of those early Christain communities, who didn't believe that Jesus has any divination of Sonship associated with God, would definitely be not categorized as "Kafirs". On the same note, if someone happen to know one such community called "ebonites" do exists even today who don't consider Jesus to be son of God, then how can we lable them, in general, as "kafir". Also, we know that the message of Allah, after His messanger has passed away, can't be transmitted to other man kind in the same perfect form as was done by his ownself. Therefore, how can a person be blamed for his ignorance? Yes, they could be called anything, such as polytheists, or "Mushriks" etc, but to call anyone as "Kafir" is really a thing that needs lot of deliberation.

 Afshan :  Yes, it becomes more clearer now that Moslem men are allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women, because the Jews and Christians do NOT belong to the disbelievers according to the Qur'an.

But, to understand Islam more fully, there is the other question that I raised before:

Is a Moslem woman allowed to marry a Christian man?

There is a reason behind my questions : in my country there is a law that rules that no Moslem, man or woman, is allowed to marry a Christian. The state says that is based on the Qur'an. Is this true?

AhmadJoyia :  Hi, glad to meet you here ! I think you are a very, very reasonable and down-to-earth  person. With an unlimited horizon.

Thanks for the very clear elucidations on the disbelievers matter. My understanding of Islam, I feel, becomes better and better.

So then, if a Christian does not deny the conditions: 1] Oneness of God, 2] His angels, 3] His Messengers, 4] The last day of judgement i.e. the day of resurrection adn 5] Al Qadar or Divine Preordainments, he is not a disbeliever, a Kafir? And such a woman may be married to an Moslem man?

But, what about Sakeranwar's criterion that one must believe in the Prophet to be a believer?

Best wishes to you both, and all of you.

Tom.-

AhmadJoyia : forgot something: can you be more specific on "pre-ordainments"? Examples?

Thanks.-

Tom.-

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu

As I have mentioned in a few of my previous responses to related questions, the issue of marriage between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man (including Jews and Christians), except in the case of a polytheist man, has not been expressly mentioned in the Shari`ah. Even though Muslims have traditionally considered the silence of the Shari`ah, in this regard, to imply a disliking for such marriage and have, therefore, considered it more prudent to avoid it, yet, the fact remains, that such marriage, due to the silence of the Shari`ah can only be considered as 'disliked', not expressly 'prohibited' by the Shari`ah.

There could be many opinion, that considers the marriage between a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man (including Jews and Christians) to be expressly prohibited. In my opinion, the stated opinion is not correct and is based on such verses of the Qur'an, which relate specifically to the issue of marriage between a Muslim and a polytheist.

The marriage of Christian man to a Muslim woman is an invalid marriage. Allah says in the Quran:

And give not (Muslim women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe [al-Baqara 221]

Therefore, it is not allowed for disbeliever to marry a Muslim woman. Allah also says,

They (Muslim women) are not lawful for them (the disbelivers) nor are they (the disbeliever) lawful for them [al-Mumtahana 10]

A closer look at both these verse shows that they specifically relate to the polytheists. Neither of these verses discusses the issue of marriage between a Muslim woman and a Christian or a Jewish man (or a man ascribing to any other monotheistic creed).

It is now for the individual to judge for himself as to which of the two opinions is based on sounder reasoning and stronger grounds. He would only be obliged to follow the opinion, which he considers to be more in keeping with the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).

Afshan

"

But, what about Sakeranwar's criterion that one must believe in the Prophet to be a believer?

"

Though I have tried to reply to this question in my last posting, even before it could be raised, yet I give it try from another angle.

All the 5 conditions that I asked you to testify are actually to testify the one who could be a believer. Those who don't testify those 5 conditions or misses any one of them, would not be called a believer, though not necessarily a dis-believer. Specifically, there are two other group of people, other than believers; namely Ignorants and the dis-believers. Among these two, a large chunk of people lay in the group of Ignorants to whom the message of Allah has not reached as it was the case when Prophet Mohammad was among us on this earth. It is simply not enough, I repeat, not enough for Muslims to blame all other non-Muslims (by calling others as Kafirs) when we ourself have not transmitted the message of Allah to them in a best possible manner. Unfortunately, events like 9/11, 7/11 or other similar to them, has done more obliteration to the delivery of this message than doing any better job.

I hope this shall further help understanding the question raised.

thomas wrote: AhmadJoyia : forgot something: can you be more specific on "pre-ordainments"? Examples? Thanks.- Tom.-

Brother Tom, Pre-ordination or Free Will, is quite an involved issue of Philosophy onto which numerous energy in the past as well as in present is being spent. It would probably continue endlessly. Nevertheless, as per my understanding, Pre-ordination is the concept, originated from the infinite capacity of God, through which He knows everything prehand. That is to say, that since He is perfect planner and time is not a limitation for Him, hence everything He has created, He knows the destiny of the creation as well. On the other hand, the notion of free Will given to humans, takes the arguments to the other side of the wall, where it is argued that if God has pre-destined the fate of humans, then there is little reason left to blame him for his misdeeds on this earth (since God is all Just).

I hope this shall throw some light on the concept of pre-ordination viz a viz the free Will. I also hope that some other brothers on this forum may bring more clearer and better picture on this concept than mine.

Indeed, Allah knows the best.

Israfil : Sorry, let me check which question I have not responded yet.

Tom.-

Afshan : Thanks a lot for your objective comments. They throw more light into the issue. Some more questions:

1]  Is it a mayority opinion in the Islamic factions that because the Shari'ah is silent that it means a dislike for Moslem women to marry non-Muslim men? Aren't there further guidelines in the Hadiths?

Or can't you implicitly infer from other parts of the Qur'an that it IS allowed or NOT allowed?

It would be very complicated if the verdict would be only based on human concepts.

Or, just because there is no firm ruling in the Qur'an, that it is permitted? You know : the benefit of the doubt?

2]  But, it is of course very clear and firm that a Moslem women and men are prohibited to marry a polytheist and idolators. As I have learned, polytheists and idolators belong to the "unbelievers". And they are also prohibited to marry "disbelievers". Your verses quoted  [al Baqara 221 and al-Mumtahana 10] clearly rule that.

3]  Because from the discussions in the previous postings there is an indication that, based on the Qur'an, Christians and Jews are NOT considered disbelievers nor unbelievers, then is it right to infer that Christians and Jews are allowed to be married to Moslems ?

On your last paragraph : I strictly don't agree with the alternative to leave the individual to his/her own judgment on the issue. It always leads to confusion and misunderstandings. The final conclusion should be based on God's Words in the Qur'an. Even not explicitly stated, but implicitly. It should be possible to read between the lines and verses the what the guidelines are, and how they fit and be integrated in the whole picture of Islam.

Best wishes.

Tom.

AhmadJoyia :  I must say that your explanation on Sakeranwar's clarification that one must believe in the Prophet to be a believer, was not clear to me. Perhaps you will explain to me from yet another angle?

Thanks for your clarification of "preordainments", [I read the verses on this.]

So, in conclusion -- so far, at least -- can we thus understand that Christians and Jews do belong to the "believers' -- subject to further clarification on Sakeranwar's quotation?

I don't doubt that it concerns very, very, critical and fundamental views. It may further make or break the present general perception that Christians [and Jews] ARE disbelievers.

But, if this general perception can be changed, even very slightly and within certain, even small Moslem groups only, then it would be tiny step of a big leap forward to a better mutual understanding of each other's faiths.

Best wishes.

Tom.-

Israfil:  you are right, I haven't yet reponded to your post of the 19th September. It was ready, below, but I forgot to post it. It was I think, when the internet network here was down, and then I just forgot to send it later on.....

Israfil :  thank you for the extensive posting. Here are my comments:

1] You refute his statements, but using Torah/Bible verses . Not relevant, I think. I know those verses you quoted very well, but it is a Torah/Bible based refutation. To refute his statements consistently, you must quote from the Qur'an, if any.

And what is your personal, human, opinion versus God's word in the Qur'an?  Yes, it is your logic and mind and brain which is responding, but it is against the word of God in the Qu'ran, and so not much worth and useless.

There are lots of other Bible verses apart from the Bible verses that you quoted. But it would be irrelevant if I want to use them to refute Sakeranwar's statements. I am "on the other side".

2]  I understand your reasoning on "belief" of the Jews [/Christians?], but I just understand Sakeranwar's usage of the word "belief" to mean that the Jews/Christians do not adhere to the Prophet Mohammad's doctrinal teachings. Except, except of course, if your clarification on the word "belief" is based on the Qur'anic interpretation, not your own, human, interpretation.

Of course the Jews and Christians do not deny the existence of the Prophet as a human being, but is this non-denial what is understood by the Qur'an?

3] My views on "belief" above apply on your reasoning of the  Noahide covenant as well.

You also stated : " Since Islamic laws parallel this ...." , which laws? Please quote the verses.

Then you further stated :  " Again Jews may not follow the prophet Mohammad but they surely do not deny his existence."  Sure, they don't deny, but they do not believe in the Prophet, as neither do Christians. And that makes them, Jews and Christians, disbelievers, according to Sakeranwar, underlying his statement on verses in the Qur'an.

4] Yes, the "Unitarian and Nazarean Christians" is the group of Christians that belong to the believers, because they do not believe that Jesus is the son of God. But mind you, they are not the mayority of Christians that we know  who believe that Jesus is the son of God.

So, it would be very, very interesting if there would be verses in the Qur'an, which explicitly, or even implicitly, state that Jews and Christians does NOT belong to the disbelievers, even though they do not believe in the Prophet's teachings.

All the best.

Tom.-

PS   I must compliment you for your knowledge of the Bible, and your mature and pleasant way of communication. And I am very happy with your views on the position of us Christians, but I think it better to have a clear cut Qur'anic guideline underlying your perception.

thomas wrote: AhmadJoyia :  I must say that your explanation on Sakeranwar's clarification that one must believe in the Prophet to be a believer, was not clear to me. Perhaps you will explain to me from yet another angle?

Alright my brother thomas let me give it another try. First of all, I must admit my fault of not clearing the terms being used here. Specifically there are three terms being used. That is:-

1. Believer

2. Un-Believer

3. Dis-Believer.

There definitions must be understood with respect to time of Prophet Mohammad's presence on this earth. That is a). Before Prophet Mohammad. b). At the time of Prophet Mohammad. c) After Prophet Mohammad.

So, Believers for time period (a) are all those people who fulfilled those 5 conditions that have been talked about previously.

For time period (b) and (c), all those who accepted Islam, became believers.

Now coming for Non-Believers for period (a), all those who didn't pass the five condition test, became non-believers. Those jews who didn't recognise Prophet Jesus by ignorance and remained Jew throughout their life are included in this category of non-believers. For period (b), All those to whom message of Allah through our Prophet Mohammad couldn't reach due to any physical limitations. This may include anyone outside the map of Arabia etc. And for period (c), All those to whom message of Allah couldn't reach, or though it did reach to them, but not as perfectly as it could be understood properly.

Now for Dis-believers for period (a), all those who denied Prophet Jesus including those Jews to whom Jesus physically addressed or even those after Jesus, provided they attested that the message of Jesus was reached to them perfectly without obliteration. For period (b), all those who denied Prophet Mohammad in his life time including those who might be known as people of the book (i.e. Jews and Christians). For period (c), in which we are now living, all those who rejected Islam provided they attested that the message of Allah through Muslims had indeed reached to them without obliteration.

 With this broad picture in mind, we can now look at the definitons of all three categoris with respect to time period (c) i.e. period after Prophet Mohammad.

So other than believers, there are two distinct categories of people in this world existing nowadays. They are:-  1) non-believers or Ignorants, 2) Dis-believers or kafirs. Between these two, though both are non-believer, every one is considered ignornat (a benefit of doubt) untill or unless he specifically confess that he got the complete and true message of Allah without obliteration, and then rejected it willfully. Since, hardly anyone among Muslims, nowadays, can claim to tranmit the message of Allah, it is even more difficult to categorize anyone as Kafir among the general category of non-believers. I hope this presentation may help you understand the concept of Believers, non-Believers and Dis-Believers.

Israfil : Ahmad is very OK, but it is not true that I don't want your serious answers. You know that I read all the postings and all the verses quoted ? You know that I have very much gained knowledge anout Islam and the Qur'an? And that I need not look up those relevant verses myself in the Qur'an?

You and all the other Moslem participants are really very helpful to guide me through your faith.

Is it perhaps because of my short replies? Well, I just deliberately want to keep them short, so that is reader-friendly.

I really enjoy reading all your comments and all the verses quoted.

So let me have your serious answers. Even if they are repetitions of others. No problem.

Best wishes,

Tom.-

Ahmadjoyia :  

Thank you so much on your detailed clarification on the meaning of non-, dis- and unbelievers -- also formulated in a very gentle way ... :

I just want to make my conclusion from your that with believers it is just meant those who accepted Islam, just as Sakeranwar's explanation ? And we Christians, including Jews, of present day, do not belong to the believers?

Which means that it is not allowed for Moslems, men or women, to marry Jews and Christians?

Please correct me again if my conclusion is wrong. It is very important to know what is  right and what is wrong for Islam. For instance, if my conclusion above is right, then I can now fully understand and accept my Parliament/government's ruling in my country that it is forbidden for Moslems to marry non-Moslems.

Thanks. Best regards.

Tom.-

Brother Thomas

....I just want to make my conclusion from your that with believers it is just meant those who accepted Islam, just as Sakeranwar's explanation ?

And we Christians, including Jews, of present day, do not belong to the believers?

Which means that it is not allowed for Moslems, men or women, to marry Jews and Christians?

No, this is not a right conclusion. Did Bro Sakeranwar said that? In fact people of the book (Jews and Christians) have special status in Quran, even within the general category of non-believers. Hence, according to Quran, Muslim men are allowed to marry them.

Look at it this way

The Jews call non-Jews "Gentiles"

Christians call non-Christians "Lost"

Muslims call non-Muslims either unbeliever or non-believer

But again I just wanted to sum that up hopefully toi boost what bro Ahmad is saying.

Israfil:  I still hope for serious your comments, long our short.  Fyi : I'm going to put all these postings in a book. That'swhy your own thinking is important.

But ifw e Christians are categorised as "unbeliever", we still cannot marry Moslems, based on Ahmajoyia's explanations ?

Thanks, and best wishes. Especially with the coming fasting month. God bless.

Tom.-

Ahmadjoyia :  I think, I think that you have re-explain your clarifications on un-, dis- and believers again, because just cannot yet follow your reasoning below:

Above you confirmed  yes, that we Christians do not belong to the believers. Well in that case we cannot marry Moslem men/women, I should say, because to only persons to marry a Muslim should be believes.

Your additional comments that  we, Christians,  " may not be dis-believers" becomes irrelevant to the issue.

Yes, yes, Bro Sakeranwar [in his posting of Sept 7] explicitly said that Christians are DISbelievers, because we don't believe in the Prophet Mohammad etc. quotation below

Jews and Christians are Kuffar (disbelievers) because

-they do not believe in Prophet Muhammd (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)

-they do not believe in the Holy Quran which is Allah's Book

-they assign partner(s) to Allah. Here some Verses in this effect! 

2:116. And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children or offspring). Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him.

9:30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

5:72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong­doers) there are no helpers.

5:73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

Jews are enemies to Angel Jibrael. On this account they are disbelievers. Allah says in the Holy Quran:

2:98. "Whoever is an enemy to Allah, His Angels, His Messengers, Jibrael (Gabriel) and Mikael (Michael), then verily, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers."

The above Verses are clear evidence that the Jews & Christians are disbelievers. Therefore, do not believe anyone who says that Jews and Christians are believers. If he insists then ask him to provide evidence from the Holy Quran and Sunnah.

Sister/Brother Israfil [posting 19 Sept] then refuted Sakeranwar's views with the clarification that it is not true that Christians and Jews do not believe in the Prophet Muhammad's existence, [below] to which I commented, that Sakeranwar clearly meant BELIEVE in the Prophet's teachings. Surely his EXISTENCE Christians do not deny, but they do not belive in the Islamic doctrines. So I commented that it is rather difficult to understand her/his refutations.

In starting I will refute the first part of his comment. Sakeranwar
states that Jews do not believe in the prophet Muhammad. Now
I would say that I disagree. The reason being is the belief part.
One can believe in the existence of something without heeding
to its call (or nature). Now for Jews the Torah is their code of
law and it is what they follow because it is the law(s) in which
Moses brought to the Israelites from Mt. Sinai.

Now for a Jew to believe in the existence of Muhammad is not
a problem as it does not contradict their belief. In fact, there
were some Jewish Sages who believe in prophets who came
after Moses therefore it is not a problem nor is it false that jews
do not accept the prophet Muhammad they just don't follow his
teachings. However let us note that Jews do in fact believe in
the universal laws in which other non-jews (Gentiles) have as
their code of laws i.e Christians and Muslims.

Apart from all that, I appreciate you and Israfil still keep the door open for us Christians to marry Moslems, but it surely should be a firm guide based on the Qur'an. Where it is not explicitly stated, implicitly, contextually, would be of course acceptable, where exactly the Jews and Christians are positioned in the Qur'an.

Because I know that it is very far from easy, I the more appreciate your and Israfil's efforts to expose this true divine Qur'anic ruling.

But I really don't mind if a firm and clear NO is exposed, as long as it based on God's word in the Qur'an. Definiteness and firmness especially in religious matters, I personally find far more meaningful, than just views hanging in the air. That is objectively speaking.

Sunjectively, I like to be a believer in your eyes ....

Thanks, best wishes.

Tom.-

O my dear brother tom, kindly don't consider non-believers and dis-believers as one thing. They are not the same and have seperate category. It is this difference that must be kept in mind when we looking at the verses of Quran.

"Well in that case we cannot marry Moslem men/women, I should say, because to only persons to marry a Muslim should be believes."

This is not a correct view. Kindly read the verse 5:5 from Quran yourself. Here is the translation by three different translators

"005.005
YUSUFALI: This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

 

Your additional comments that  we, Christians,  " may not be dis-believers" becomes irrelevant to the issue.

I don't thinks so as I have provided sufficient evidence to this concept.

 

Yes, yes, Bro Sakeranwar [in his posting of Sept 7] explicitly said that Christians are DISbelievers, because we don't believe in the Prophet Mohammad etc. quotation below"

 

Though my question concering Bro Sakeranwar was not about his view of Christians but on marrying among them, nevertheless, I have now clarified both of these views. That is, all Christians or Jews in the present time can't be considered "dis-believers" and Quran specifically provides guidance in marrying the women from the "people of book" i.e. Jews and Christians.

Indeed Allah knows the best.

Asalaam Alikum

I have not gone through the thread, this incident may have been quoted already, I htought it would be good time to share it anyways:

Caliph Umar Farouq�s (R.A.) Ruling:

The reign of the second caliph, Umar Farouq (R.A.) , was a period of Islamic dominance; the Muslims emotions were extremely pure and holy and each emotion was dominated by Islamic taste and devotion. But in spite of this the Caliph prohibited marriage with scripturary (People of Books) women, saying

�I do not make the lawful unlawful; certainly Allah has permitted marriage with scripturary (People of Books) women but the general expediency of Muslims requires that this permission is not availed of�

*NARRATOR 'Abdullah Ibn 'Umar, Nafi' narrated that whenever Ibn 'Umar was asked about marrying a Christian lady or a Jewess, he would say: "Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry ladies who ascribe partners in worship to Allah, and I do not know of a greater thing, as regards to ascribing partners in worship, etc. to Allah, than that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah's slaves REFERENCE BUKHARI 7.209 875

This a known fact the christian today are further away from religion then they were 1400 yrs ago, and have now added many new things to their faith.

For it is Allah Who Knows best.

Asalaam alikum

Respected brothers,

I have not prejudged any thing or anyone I have just contributed what I knew. The stand of the one companion [may allah be pleased with them all] on a issue what ever it may be, carry more weight than all the imams, alims or scholars put togather.

These are the people who did not eat stomach full so they may not over sleep and miss Tahajudh.

I apologize if I have offended anyone which was not my intention, still the truth can not be held back. Yes understanding of a issue vary from individual to individual, but truth remain the same.

Fatah-Momin wrote: Asalaam alikum Respected brothers, I have not prejudged any thing or anyone I have just contributed what I knew. The stand of the one companion [may allah be pleased with them all] on a issue what ever it may be, carry more weight than all the imams, alims or scholars put togather. These are the people who did not eat stomach full so they may not over sleep and miss Tahajudh. I apologize if I have offended anyone which was not my intention, still the truth can not be held back. Yes understanding of a issue vary from individual to individual, but truth remain the same.

Wa Alaykum As-salam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh brother Fatah-Momin

Jazak Allahu Khairan for your input and you have nothing to apologise. You have brought us a true statement from Caliph Omar (may Allah be pleased with him). In fact Allah has forbidden the believers to marry those who ascribe partner(s) with Allah. Allah says in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning): 

002 - Al-Baqarah   221. And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikun) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember.

024 - An-Nur   3. The adulterer marries not but an adulteress or a Mushrikah and the adulteress none marries her except an adulterer or a Muskrik [and that means that the man who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan or idolatress) or a prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer, or a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater, etc.) And the woman who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater) or an adulterer, then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan, or idolatress, etc.)]. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Monotheism).

However, Allah has made lawful to marry chaste women from those who were given the Scripture as we learn from the following Verse. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

005 - Al-Ma'idah  5. Made lawful to you this day are At­Tayyib�t [all kinds of Hal�l (lawful) foods, which All�h has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, etc., milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits, etc.). The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals, etc.) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time, when you have given their due Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girl-friends. And whosoever disbelieves in the Oneness of All�h and in all the other Articles of Faith [i.e. His (All�h's), Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and Al­Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

If we consider all of the above Verses, it is very clear that the marrying of the Jews and Christian women who ascribe partner(s) is not lawful for the believers. 

And Allah knows best.

............................................................ .........................

Thomas, Israfil & brother AhmadJoyia: I was absent for sometimes due to other commitments. I have read all of your posts. I must congratulate Thomas for your clear understanding on the issue that the Jews & Christians are disbelievers. You are on the right track and I have prayed to Allah for your guidance to His Straight Way. Israfil and brother AhmadJoyia are manifestly wrong in their understanding of the issue. This is might be due to their misinterpretation of the Quranic Verses and lack of understanding Islam(no offense intended). Insha Allah, I will post further evidence from the Holy Quran as soon as possible to refute their false claims that Jews and Christians are believers.

Until then...

May Allah guide us all to His Straight Way.

O my dearer brother sarkaranwar, I am sorry that I have been posting in your absence and never realized your absence, probably because your words were so loud. Anyhow, to start with, I quote your own highlight text from Quran i.e. "chaste women from those who were given the Scripture " and then your conclusion on it that "it is very clear that the marrying of the Jews and Christian women who ascribe partner(s) is not lawful for the believers". There are two things to note here. First of all, we all know that when Quran was being revealed, the Christians, in general, were already admonished for "Trinity beliefs" by Allah. Since this condition has not changed till now, therefore the category "who were given the Scripture" still includes all those "Jews and Christians" who are not "kafir". Also, I think Quran doesn't address "Jews and Christians" as polytheists. Isn't it? Kindly correct me if I am wrong. So, if this is true then how can we, or for that matter anyone, can make anything which is "halal" as "haram" or vice versa.

The second condition is for "chaste women". Again, since this condition is not exclusive to "believers" only, hence it iis futile to raise arguments about it. Suffice is to say that we are all talking about the "chaste" relations amoung the Muslims and the "those who were given the Scripture ". Hence "shasity" is a non-issue.

Now coming to your final concluding statement, you say

Thomas, Israfil & brother AhmadJoyia: I was absent for sometimes due to other commitments. I have read all of your posts. I must congratulate Thomas for your clear understanding on the issue that the Jews & Christians are disbelievers. You are on the right track and I have prayed to Allah for your guidance to His Straight Way. Israfil and brother AhmadJoyia are manifestly wrong in their understanding of the issue. This is might be due to their misinterpretation of the Quranic Verses and lack of understanding Islam(no offense intended). Insha Allah, I will post further evidence from the Holy Quran as soon as possible to refute their false claims that Jews and Christians are believers.

From the highlighted and underlined text, it is clear that you haven't read my post at all. Though I have tried my best to explain it to a non-bleiever, though my brother Sarkaranwar would have so much trouble in understanding them. Kindly present your logical arguments to negate as what I have mentioned. You would find me ever willing to "correct" myself. Inshallah.

Asalaam Alaikum

Jazzakallah Khair brother for confirming the truth. May Allah bless you with His rehma.

Fatah-Momin wrote: Asalaam alikum Respected brothers, I have not prejudged any thing or anyone I have just contributed what I knew. The stand of the one companion [may allah be pleased with them all] on a issue what ever it may be, carry more weight than all the imams, alims or scholars put togather. These are the people who did not eat stomach full so they may not over sleep and miss Tahajudh. I apologize if I have offended anyone which was not my intention, still the truth can not be held back. Yes understanding of a issue vary from individual to individual, but truth remain the same.

O my dear brother Fateh-Momin, thanks for your contribution through your knowldge. However, there is nothing new in it.First of all, one must understand that all the great scholars of ahadith always use a word of caution for those who wanted to quote from their collection. This was concerning their usage out of context. Hence they stressed upon the people not to use them without learning them under proper guidance from an authentic scholar of ahadith. In this view, do you claim such a learning? If not, then its not prudent to quote ahadith for which their collecters have clearly prohibted their usage without understanding them. However, if you are scholar of such a stature, then I can obviously take guidance from you and may ask such questions that must only be asked to such a scholar.

Secondly, no one is questioning the sincerity and depth of knowldge of "sahaba ikram", yet we know that there opinions were based upon their own time and environment under which they lived their lives. How much they are still valid, as scholars say, much is based upon the case under discussion and therefore can't be applied without understanding the issue. So, my brother, it is not prudent to bring such opinions when they may appear contradictory to Quran. Indeed Allah knows the best. Amin.

AhmadJoyia:
O my dear brother Fateh-Momin, thanks for your contribution through your knowldge. However, there is nothing new in it.First of all, one must understand that all the great scholars of ahadith always use a word of caution for those who wanted to quote from their collection. This was concerning their usage out of context. Hence they stressed upon the people not to use them without learning them under proper guidance from an authentic scholar of ahadith. In this view, do you claim such a learning? If not, then its not prudent to quote ahadith for which their collecters have clearly prohibted their usage without understanding them. However, if you are scholar of such a stature, then I can obviously take guidance from you and may ask such questions that must only be asked to such a scholar.

Jazzakallah for you cautious appraoch to science of Hadith, this is quite rare in this time and era. At same time such pretext are used to propogate ones own beliefs. First I must make it clear that I am not an alim or a scholar of hadith, just a collecter of information, which I hope with time may become knowledge, when, I do not known. 

AhmadJoyia
Secondly, no one is questioning the sincerity and depth of knowldge of "sahaba ikram", yet we know that there opinions were based upon their own time and environment under which they lived their lives. How much they are still valid, as scholars say, much is based upon the case under discussion and therefore can't be applied without understanding the issue.

I beg to differ with you on the issue that the knowledge of the sahabas, may Allah be pleased with them all, was not limited to their time. It actually transcended time, as they understood revelation better then us all. I will not go into detail here as it will be futile. You do have a close mind on the issue.

002 - Al-Baqarah   221. And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone)

Now who are people fo the book? they are the people who follow the revelations of Allah on previous prophet [as], In all the revelations Allah has instructed the believers to worship Him alone. Now look around for people of the book who worship Him alone

AhmadJoyia: So, my brother, it is not prudent to bring such opinions when they may appear contradictory to Quran.

You are preaching caution to others, when it comes to you, you label others without any reservations. This here is contradiction

For it is Allah alone knows the best.

Fatah-Momin wrote: Jazzakallah for you cautious appraoch to science of Hadith, this is quite rare in this time and era. At same time such pretext are used to propogate ones own beliefs. First I must make it clear that I am not an alim or a scholar of hadith, just a collecter of information, which I hope with time may become knowledge, when, I do not known.

Thanks brother for your response and valuable analysis. Collection of information would not automatically make it "knowledge" untill understood through proper means, this is as what I have already stated in my previous posting.

AhmadJoyia Secondly, no one is questioning the sincerity and depth of knowldge of "sahaba ikram", yet we know that there opinions were based upon their own time and environment under which they lived their lives. How much they are still valid, as scholars say, much is based upon the case under discussion and therefore can't be applied without understanding the issue. I beg to differ with you on the issue that the knowledge of the sahabas, may Allah be pleased with them all, was not limited to their time. It actually transcended time, as they understood revelation better then us all.

O my brother, this is kind of reasoning only through "faith" and not through human logic and wisdom that Allah has bestowed to every human. Indeed all humans suffer from the limitations of time and space except for those who have access to divine revelations. Other than Prophets, I think, associating any others into this category is little exaggeration. 

I will not go into detail here as it will be futile. You do have a close mind on the issue.

Well my brother, thanks for your personal remarks, though I shall restrict myself not to reciprocate it.

002 - Al-Baqarah   221. And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone) Now who are people fo the book? they are the people who follow the revelations of Allah on previous prophet [as], In all the revelations Allah has instructed the believers to worship Him alone. Now look around for people of the book who worship Him alone

Well my dear, perhaps you may know that Allah admonishes the chirstians in Quran over the issue of "Trinity" and yet include them as "people of the book".

AhmadJoyia: So, my brother, it is not prudent to bring such opinions when they may appear contradictory to Quran. You are preaching caution to others, when it comes to you, you label others without any reservations. This here is contradiction

Kindly note that I have not "Judged" about any thing in my statement but to suggest to avoid quoting ahadith without qualification. "appear contradictory" can't be understood that I implied "it is contradictory". Isn't it? Kindly refrain making assumptions on others behalf.

I wrote:Fatah-Momin: which I hope with time may become knowledge

His understanding of my statement:.AhmadJoyia:  Collection of information would not automatically make it "knowledge"

What can I say you have your own interpretation of things. May Allah save us from your knowledge. You have still failed to point out a christian person who does not associate any one with Allah, let me remind you, "the father[God], the son[Jesus] and the Holy spirit[this has different interpretations]" Now let us see what your interpretaion of this is.

Fatah-Momin wrote: I wrote:Fatah-Momin: which I hope with time may become knowledge His understanding of my statement:.AhmadJoyia:  Collection of information would not automatically make it "knowledge"

O my dear brother, you hopes may remain alive, but to transform info into knowledge, its not the "time" but the "guidance" which is a necessary condition.

What can I say you have your own interpretation of things. May Allah save us from your knowledge.

Yes, indeed. May Allah save us from all the bad knowldge may it be from any source. However, you haven't provided my "interpretation" that you think is not according to Islamic teachings?

You have still failed to point out a christian person who does not associate any one with Allah,....

I think I have already given the examples of these people in my previous posts where the example of "Ebionites" was given in it for such people.

.... let me remind you, "the father[God], the son[Jesus] and the Holy spirit[this has different interpretations]" Now let us see what your interpretaion of this is.

So, what is your point here? I couldn't get you as what is your question? Kindly be specific and avoid duplication if I have already addressed that question in my previous posts. Thanks.

AhmadJoyia:May Allah save us from all the bad knowldge

Jazzakallah.

Fatah-Momin wrote: AhmadJoyia:May Allah save us from all the bad knowldge Jazzakallah.

Thanks for your acknowledgement. 

Virtually no writings of the Ebionites have survived (see below), except as excerpted in the writings of orthodox Christian theologians, such as Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Tertullian, who considered the Ebionites to be heretics. Mainstream or "Pauline" Christian writers sometimes distinguished the Ebionites from the Nazarenes, one patristic author often depending upon another for his assessment. Without surviving texts, it is even less easy now for us to establish exactly the basis for their distinction. All these sources within Mainstream Christianity agree that the Ebionites denied the divinity of Jesus, the doctrine of the Trinity and the Virgin Birth. The Ebionites emphasized the humanity of Jesus as the mortal son of Mary and Joseph, who was adopted as a son of God when he was anointed with the Holy Spirit at his baptism, and therefore could have become the messianic king-priest of Israel (by virtue of also being both a descendant of king David through his father and a descendant of high priest Aaron through his mother) but was chosen to be the last and greatest of the prophets. It seems that the Ebionites also rejected the doctrine of atonement for sin through the death of Jesus, and judged posthumous sightings of Jesus as spiritual experiences such as dreams and visions rather than an actual physical resurrection. This theory, however, is contradicted by the Ebionite story, included in the Gospel of the Hebrews, according to which Jesus, "risen from those who sleep," appeared to his brother Jacob ("James") and ate bread with him. This sounds very much like an actual physical resurrection. There are no stories from the Ebionite canon that present the opposite view. The Ebionites revered the Desposyni (a sacred name reserved only for Jesus' blood relatives), especially James the Just,(the above-mentioned Jacob, brother of Jesus) as the legitimate apostolic successors of Jesus, rather than Peter.This is supported by the Epistles of Paul, and portions of the Book of Acts that present "James" as outranking Peter. Epiphanius states (''Panarion'' 16:9) that they criticized Paul as a Greek who converted to Sadduceean Judaism in order to marry the High Priest's daughter, and then apostasized when she rejected him. Of the books of the New Testament the Ebionites only accepted an Aramaic version of the Gospel of Matthew, referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews, as scripture. This version of Matthew, Pauline Christian critics reported, omitted the first two chapters (on Jesus' virgin birth), and started with Jesus' baptism by John. Ebionites believed that All followers of Jesus, whether they be Jewish or Gentile, must adhere to Noahide Laws and Mosaic law through an either more restorative (Essene) or progressive (Pharisee) interpretation and observance, tempered with the wisdom teachings of Jesus. The Ebionites were strict pacifists and vegetarians, and also believed in communitarian living and abstinence from alcohol. Some Ebionites such as Cerinthus adopted Gnostic beliefs but are better identified as Elkasites and were seen as heretics by traditional Ebionites, as well as Pauline Christians. The sect did not exert any great influence on Christianity, and gradually dwindled into obscurity. However, the Ebionites are represented in History as the sect encountered by the Muslim historian Abd al-Jabbar (ca. 1000 A.D.) almost 500 years later than most Christian historians admit for the survival of the Ebionites. An additional possible mention of surviving Ebionite communities existing in the lands of the east, Theyma and Thilmes, around the 11th century, is said to be in Sefer Ha'masaoth, the "Book of the Travels" of Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela, or Benyamin Bar-Yonnah, a sephardic Rabbi of Spain.

You actually made my point and refuted your self. The christian that muslims met were/are "mushriks" as they believed/believe in trinity and when one has gerenral discussion one argue dominant facts and not split hairs.

Well my dear brother, this assertion is of no surprise to me since you didn't go through all of the posts that have gone into this discussion. So you completely misunderstood my point. So go back and read again my posts from page 7 to understand what is the point that I am trying to highlight. Similarly, start reading from page 4 where brother Israfil has started his posts to which I merely suported his arguments. Nevertheless, what is more important now over here is to look at your own point on which you began your posts. Here is what you said "This a known fact the christian today are further away from religion then they were 1400 yrs ago, and have now added many new things to their faith". Now can you provide the evidence of your fact that present day Christians are not the same as the one described in Quran 1400 years ago? I shall find no hesitation to accept your "fact" provided you have sufficient evidence  to prove it. Otherwise, all your statements are mere assertions simply meaningless.

Sarkeranwar wrote: ............................................................ ......................... Thomas, Israfil & brother AhmadJoyia: I was absent for sometimes due to other commitments. I have read all of your posts. I must congratulate Thomas for your clear understanding on the issue that the Jews & Christians are disbelievers. You are on the right track and I have prayed to Allah for your guidance to His Straight Way. Israfil and brother AhmadJoyia are manifestly wrong in their understanding of the issue. This is might be due to their misinterpretation of the Quranic Verses and lack of understanding Islam(no offense intended). Insha Allah, I will post further evidence from the Holy Quran as soon as possible to refute their false claims that Jews and Christians are believers. Until then... May Allah guide us all to His Straight Way.

O my dear brother, here is another evidence from the "Tafsir ibn khatir". Here it is

"The Prohibition of marrying Mushrik Men and Women

Allah prohibited the believers from marrying Mushrik women who worship idols. Although the meaning is general and includes every Mushrik woman from among the idol worshippers and the People of the Scripture, Allah excluded the People of the Scripture from this ruling. Allah stated:

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((Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time when you have given their due dowry, desiring chastity (i.e., taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse.) (5:5)"

 Not only this, he further goes on with the issue by including the two of the narrations that brother has also mentioned. He says :

`Ali bin Abu Talhah said that Ibn `Abbas said about what Allah said:

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(And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (female idolators) till they believe (worship Allah Alone).) "Allah has excluded the women of the People of the Scripture.'' This is also the explanation of Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Makhul, Al-Hasan, Ad-Dahhak, Zayd bin Aslam and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and others. Some scholars said that the Ayah is exclusively talking about idol worshippers and not the People of the Scripture, and this meaning is similar to the first meaning we mentioned. Allah knows best.

Abu Ja`far bin Jarir (At-Tabari) said, after mentioning that there is Ijma` that marrying women from the People of the Scripture is allowed, "`Umar disliked this practice so that the Muslims do not refrain from marrying Muslim women, or for similar reasons.'' An authentic chain of narrators stated that Shaqiq said: Once Hudhayfah married a Jewish woman and `Umar wrote to him, "Divorce her.'' He wrote back, "Do you claim that she is not allowed for me so that I divorce her'' He said, "No. But, I fear that you might marry the whores from among them.'' Ibn Jarir related that Zayd bin Wahb said that `Umar bin Khattab said, "The Muslim man marries the Christian woman, but the Christian man does not marry the Muslim woman.'' This Hadith has a stronger, authentic chain of narrators than the previous Hadith.

Ibn Abu Hatim said that Ibn `Umar disliked marrying the women from the People of the Scripture. He relied on his own explanation for the Ayah:

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(And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (female idolators) till they believe (worship Allah Alone)."

Hopefully, this shall serve as a conclusive evidence. Inshallah.

AhmadJoyia Quote Fatah-Momin "This a known fact the christian today are further away from religion then they were 1400 yrs ago, and have now added many new things to their faith".

The christains are not only mushrik today they were mushrik when Allah revealed Surah Mariam 19:35 "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son."

Allah confirm this again 112: 1/4

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

4. And there is none like unto Him.