The Divinity of Christ
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Description: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21169
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Topic: The Divinity of Christ
Posted By: pfmobley
Subject: The Divinity of Christ
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 4:08pm
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As some one who is a Christian looking into the world of Islam from the outside looking in; it appears that most converts from Christianity to Islam had definate issues with the Holy Trinity of God, the Father; God, the Son; and God, the Holy Spirit. Most converts from Christianity saw this as a confusing issue and could never rectify the idea in their minds. I'd like to know, exactly why this is a difficult subject to grasp and how does Islam explain the verse in the Holy Bible in the book of St. John that states,
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Please elaborate.
Respectfully,
Phillip
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Replies:
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 03 July 2011 at 11:21am
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Even though I am not a convert, I can provide the Islamic basis for why some Christians convert to Islam. The difficulty people have is indeed with regard to the status of Jesus (pbuh). First and foremost, the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible. Second, the verses (such as John 14:6) which allude to the divinity of Jesus (pbuh) are contradicted by those which show his humanity. How then can Jesus be God? Third, if Jesus is God, then why is he called God's son? And why was he praying to the Father? Was he praying to himself? These are the difficulties many people have. They find answers in the Quran, which describes Jesus as a mighty prophet, but human nonetheless and the servant of God. The following are some verses about him: "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" (2:87) "Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;" (3:45) "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59) "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (4:171) ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: pfmobley
Date Posted: 03 July 2011 at 2:27pm
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While it is true the word "trinity" is not mentioned in the bible, the presents of the three powers of God are represented and referred to within the bible. Secondly, the verse in St. John 14:6 speaks to the process by which one can come to salvation. St. John 10 verses 1-17 spoken by Christ Himself describes the relationship of Christ to His followers. As far as, how can Christ be God and pray to Himself? He (Christ) is simply praying to the head of the trinity; God the Father. One must understand that even you or I as corporeal beings have the same complexities to our personalities. I have 3 names, a first, middle and last name. I am known by all 3, but all of them mean different things at different times. Because we are corporeal beings, we do not have the spiritual power to separate our physical selves into three or more beings; but God can. If we ignore his power or try to limit His abilities, we limit His power because we do not understand it. If you believe that God is all powerful, then there is nothing that He cannot do; including being 3 separate entities and one God. Jesus is more than just a mighty prophet. I would suggest that if there is any confusion about this, then read the book of John beginning at the first chapter and the first verse. It states, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
This selection of verses speak to Jesus being there at the beginning of creation. When God spoke the words of creation and the universe was formed, it was Christ who was the physical manifestation every word that proceeded from the mouth of God. Christ is so much more than a prophet. He is the physical manifestation of the will of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.(Romans 10:4). I would suggest you read verses 1 through 4. I hope this answers some of the questions that some of you may have concerning Christ's divinity. Blessings, Phillip |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 07 July 2011 at 2:38pm
Hi Phillip. Sorry for the late response.
Perhaps, but are they ever mentioned in the context of "three persons, one substance" as Tertullian put it? Are they ever represented as three persons of the "triune Godhead"?
This still does not answer why Jesus (the "Son") was praying to what is essentially himself as the "Father". If Jesus was "God", why was he praying to himself? Your first, middle and last name analogy simply does not make sense here. You certainly may have three names, but do you ever refer (or talk) to yourself by one of those names? Let's assume your middle name is John. Do you, Phillip, ever say to yourself "You know John, I am hungry. Let's get something to eat"? Probably not. This is the problem I and other people have with Jesus praying to God and constantly referring to Him as clearly superior to himself. Of course, to me it makes sense that he was praying. It shows that he was just a man. God does not pray to anyone, let alone Himself.
Agreed, but this is not the issue. The issue is not whether God is capable or willing to exist in three persons. The issue is why are there so many inconsistencies? Why didn't God just flat-out say from the very beginning "I am a trinity"? Why did this concept have to be introduced quite suddenly after thousands of years of complete silence?
But again, this conflicts with other verses which clearly show Jesus as a human being and nothing more. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
While it is true the word "trinity" is not mentioned in the bible, the
presents of the three powers of God are represented and referred to
within the bible.Posted By: pfmobley
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 6:58am
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Thanks for the reply. We won't get into a theological debate over this topic. I only ask that you read John chapter 8. I believe this may shed some light on this very complex subject.
Blessings, Phillip |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 4:12pm
I have read John 8 and it does not help to answer the serious theological questions. Throughout the chapter, Jesus says that he was sent by God. This would imply that he was a servant of God and not God Himself. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: pfmobley
Date Posted: 13 July 2011 at 6:31am
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Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Savior of the world. Of course He was sent by God to prevent the total destruction of mankind. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." (John 10:14 KJV). "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:15 KJV). "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16 KJV) "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." (John 10:17 KJV) I ask you, who can do this, but God? As far as Jesus praying to Himself...Have you ever talked to yourself? Of course you have. He is the God man. His glory is partially shielded because He, being God, dwelt among us here on earth. Why is this concept so hard to fathom? In the Old Testament, in the book of Exodus, Moses was given the opportunity to see God, but God shielded him, because if Moses had seen the face of God, he would have died, so God allowed him to see only His hind-parts. Why? Because His glory was to great to be seen by human eyes. I think the biggest issue here is that if the honorable prophet Muhammad did not give Jesus the acknowledgment of being God, then Islam would not be Islam...right? What are your thoughts?
Grace and peace be unto you. Phillip |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 13 July 2011 at 4:49pm
Why would God "send" Himself? This is the main problem. You maintain Jesus is God. Jesus said he was "sent" by God. Therefore, the conclusion would be that God "sent" Himself. Is this what you are saying? This is the same as saying God "prayed" to Himself. You say this makes perfect sense, but I ask how does it make sense? If Jesus was God, he should not have said "God sent me" or "God is greater than me". That creates needless confusion. And in a matter of salvation, confusion is a major turnoff.
There is a big difference between talking to oneself as humans do and God praying to Himself as the Bible suggests. Furthermore, on the rare occasion where I do talk to myself, I don't refer to myself in the third person, which is what Jesus does in his prayers when referring to God.
This only explains why God came in human form, not why He behaved like a human. If Jesus was God incarnate, he would not have behaved like a human. Like I said before, this only creates confusion. All Jesus had to do to prove he was really "God" incarnate was to have a human form yet not act like a human. That means, as an example, that he should have been able to go without food and water his whole life. Yet clearly, he ate and drank and went to the restroom like all of us. Why would I worship someone like that? Why would I worship a human?
Islam is pure monotheism and submission to God alone. Muhammad (pbuh) taught that Jesus was a man. So far, you have not given a substantive reason to doubt this.
Walaikum (and on you too). ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: pfmobley
Date Posted: 17 July 2011 at 9:31am
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Why would God "send" Himself?� This is the main problem.� You maintain Jesus is God.� Jesus said he was "sent" by God.� Therefore, the conclusion would be that God "sent" Himself.� Is this what you are saying?� This is the same as saying God "prayed" to Himself.� You say this makes perfect sense, but I ask how does it make sense?� If Jesus was God, he should not have said "God sent me" or "God is greater than me".� That creates needless confusion.� And in a matter of salvation, confusion is a major turnoff.
In order to understand salvation, you must first accept that Jesus was sent from the beginning of time as the sacrificial answer for the sins of man. You ask why didn'tGod send Himself? He did send Himself, in human form. Humanity was given the gift of "free-will"; this means that we are the only creatures, including the angels that were given this gift. We choose to love God of our own free-will. If we then choose to love God, then it follows that we would do His will and keep His commandments or laws. We have been lacking in these areas since Adam and Eve. God knowing this from the beginning of creation, made preparations for the fall of man, through the personage of Jesus Christ, His physical self. Jesus was sent as the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins. The confusion comes from not accepting that God could send Himself in human form to save mankind from total destruction. Jesus Christ was God in veiled humanity. He left part of Himself (His glory) in heaven. Of course Jesus would reverence God as the complete power in the universe because He is the complete power of the universe. To true Christians, this is not a confusing concept. God has three complete attributes that are apart of Him. In order to understand, you must be able to accept that Jesus is who He said He is in the book of John 14:8-12; 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. This is who Jesus is. He and the Father are one in attributes but not in works. This again is a concept that you have to accept if you are to receive the gift of salvation. God bless, Phillip |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 10:24am
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Hey Phillip, Welcome to the Forum. I was raised Catholic. Left that at age 7-psychologically and physically at age 18- left parent's home. And basically you ask in essence why people "turn away" and find "answers" in Islam. Here are a few for myself 1. The concept of original sin. Don't agree with it. God is most merciful and would not blame one for the sins of another. Kinda like how they put families in bondage and the children inherit this "debt." Not for me. Children are not born into sin. The slate is clean and until they reach the age of knowledge and reason they cannot be "sinning" as we know. 2. Did not agree with going to a dark box to "confess" by my sins at a t 7 with some guy "giving me absolution in as God' "envoy." 3. Basically it is all illogical.. God send Jesus - his son- who is also God, but prayed to God- who is not himself. 4. That somehow Jesus, who would be God could be killed in any form by humans. Jesus cannot be God. God is too divine and too mysterious and too great for this to be. 5. Mary (PBUH), a human, gave birth to "God." I left religion many years ago, probably would have defined myself as an athiest years ago. But a deeper understanding and reflection I came to the conclusion that there was something "greater" that created all of this we see. Its too majestic and incredible to be "random." You can quote the Bible and that works for you. But I do believe that is was altered to suit man's purpose. The language has changed according to context. What is the original of those words? I do not know. Someone could have changed it (as there are quite the variations based upon which Bible you read). Islam is about beliefs with actions. One God, Prophets sent, strive hard to improve and do right, ask forgiveness pray. I don't have something illogical I need to figure out and just told its a "mystery" and just believe. Does not work for me. Hayfa ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 6:38pm
But see that's the problem many people have. Why do they need to accept one concept to understand another? To accept that Jesus was "sent from the beginning of time..." would be to accept that he is God, but that is exactly what we are trying to determine. So, what you suggest is a circular argument. In order to understand that Jesus is God, we have to first accept that he was sent (by himself) from the beginning of time which implies that he is God. This simply will not work.
No, I said why would God send Himself. This is like me stating I am sending myself to work or to school. Clearly, I am not sending myself but I am going of my own free will. There is a difference. When the Bible says that Jesus was sent by God, it is implying that he is not God but a subordinate of God.
Of course there is confusion. It is this confusion which has led many people to look elsewhere for answers. Why is this concept so confusing? Why did the Bible have to say Jesus was sent by God? Why didn't it just say God came down Himself, of His own accord, and that He was not sent by anyone? Can you at least understand why many people would find the idea that Jesus was sent by God yet is still God to be confusing and contradictory?
But this is again a circular argument. It would have been very easy if the Bible was crystal clear on the subject, but by purposefully showing Jesus' humanity, while claiming in other places that he was God, it presents a hazy and contradictory story which makes acceptance to be very difficult. As-salaam alaikum. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: Abdul Shakur
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 7:44pm
Greetings, Philip (As-Salaamu Alaikum): My birth name is Robert, but my adopted Muslim name is Abdul Shakur, wich means "Servant of the Most Appreciative One{Allah,swt}". Shakur happens to be one of Allah's (swt) Glorious Names. I'm just His servant. As to your dilemma: Most Arabic people do not quite understand the "Mystery of the Trinity". It just wasn't taught to them. Our Holy Prophet, Muhammad (saas) did understand this mystery, but he chose not to expound on it, nor was he instructed to do so. His focus, in the context of the Qur'an, was on Salvation and living life to its fullest and most joyous aspects by obeying and following Allah's (swt) Will and Commandments. Those Commandments were first given through Moses, in the Ancient Writings, known as the Torah. Then, Jesus, Himself (saas) expounded on those very Commandments when He taught His disciples/Apostles. Yes, Jesus did state that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life....and that no man can come to God but through Him. If you look at that closely, you will find that His Teachings WERE the TRUTH, which indeed brings your inner person to life. He lived and taught (by example) the WAY back to Allah (swt). Therefore, you can now see how He is "The Way, the Truth, and the Life", by virtue of His Teachings and exemplary life. With His Truth dwelling within your mind and very being, you may understand this very 'indwelling' as 'spirit'. In theology, we know that every person has his/her own spirit, and if this Knowledge, which Jesus (saas) taught and lived also lives and thrives in you, you will indeed be blessed with His spirit. The statement you quoted, at St. John 14:6, is not confusing, nor does Islam reject it....you simply need to understand the depth of it (not simply take it at face value, as so many Christians do). Modern day Christianity has strayed from the very Revelations and Book it claims to teach & practice. There are so many Churches out there....just pick one that suites your fancy ....but, please be careful which one. Islam teaches only ONE way of life and Islam has only ONE Holy Book: Al-Qur'an. As I feel sure you know, in the Christian world, you can find the Holy Bible in many translations (minus the original) and many versions (again, minus the original). Do yourself a favor, my friend: go to a Mosque, talk to an Imam, and have him help you, with original documentation, to understand the Bible, as well as the Qur'an. Rather than fall prey to the society you may live in, or other religious pressures, search for yourself and let Allah(swt) teach you His Word....He may even choose to let Jesus(saas) teach you by the Spirit. I've been a practicing Muslim since 1974. I've been a student of theology since 1972....and NO theology has proven itself, satisfactorily, outside Islam. Our Holy Qur'an tells us, right from the beginning, that it was sent partly to CONFIRM the writings of the Prophets(saas) and those of Jesus(saas). Feel free to respond to my dialogue anytime. My personal e-mail is: mailto:[email protected] - [email protected] and I'm located in North California. May Allah(swt) bless you abundantly in your search.
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Posted By: pfmobley
Date Posted: 18 July 2011 at 8:33pm
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It is understandable that most converts to Islam would not believe in the act of salvation and what that entails. I believe fundamentally, we (Christians and Muslim) share the common graces of God. We are both taught to show kindness to our brothers and neighbors, not to practice acts of hatred and violence against other cultures. These are common graces of God that Christians and Muslims both share. This is a part of the Biblical Worldview Lens that Christian Theologians and Muslim clerics should come together on the world stage to show at least that we share this common solidarity in learning to co-exist with each other. I understand your reasons for what you believe and I accept them. Hopefully, you know that I as well believe in the act of salvation and I hope that we can all share a mutual respect for what each of us believes. There are indeed fundamental differences in our beliefs and that is acceptable. If we as children of God can come together and recognize what our shared common graces are, we would see less fear of Islam and Christianity and more humanity and respect for each other as followers of God or Allah.
God bless you all and thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts with you as I have attempted to understand your beliefs better. Phillip |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 20 July 2011 at 7:10pm
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I absolutely agree with you Phillip about the similarities between Islam and Christianity. Certainly, there are more similarities than differences and that should serve to break the ice and lead to more dialog. I have really enjoyed conversing with you. I hope you will stick around so we can have more discussion.
------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: abhi0193
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 12:56pm
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Hello Phillip I can understand what you mean to say as only a person who truly knows Bible and the word of the Lord can understand and needless to say that you have to have a good intellect to understand Bible. Needless to say that people here try to understand Bible from there worldly knowledge and the problem lies their. I would refer everyone to read the book " I dare to call him Father" by Bilquis Sheikh to have a better understanding.Now my point everything on this earth for us human depends on own on judgement.If I were to believe that Jesus is the Lord GOd and its one of of the trinity I gotto trust it however if i chose to be adament and think the Jesus was sent then no one can make me understand.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 September 2011 at 4:00pm
Hi Phillip, welcome to the forum and sorry for a late response. Your question that Trinity being the main reason for those converting to Islam from Christianity. I personally think that Trinity is not hard to understand at all. It is just hard to accept as a substitute idea to God as One, who does not have parents, who does not have offspring, and where none equals to God, where all else only serve God as in Islam and Judaism. Now, I do not understand the connection you made between the idea of Trinity not being understood to John 14:6. Because, there is nothing in it that suggests anything other than what was true. The same could be associated with any of God's prophets: prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is also the way, because he brought the truth (from God) whoever accepts it will receive a life of goodness that is eternal, no one get to God unless accept God's word sent through him. And we don't see a Trinity in that neither! Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: rachelb
Date Posted: 27 January 2012 at 10:17am
| This is such an interesting topic to me. I did not know Islam's thoughts concerning the trinity before. It is interesting how close it is to my own religion, LDS (mormon). We believe that God the Father and Jesus are two separate beings, along with the holy ghost being a separate being as well, thus making a "trinity" of purpose but not of one being. Thus we believe that Jesus is God's son. The LDS church does believe that God is the father for all of us on this earth, in that he made our spirits that inhabit our bodies. Since the post above says God does not have offspring, what is your take on God being our spirit's Father? |