Hello

I posted this almost a year ago on the old forum under the title - Please help me - and while it didn�t generate much help I am trying again. I have posted this here in �Discussions-islam for non muslims but I believe it should go into �Discussions-basics of islam� even then its still not the right forum, but since I seem to not have access anymore and want it open for ALL, here it is. Did thought of �General discussion� but this is more than general.

Also, I have pretty much posted as I did back then, I did edit a little but not much.

And also, I know that there is no scholars here

Hi All,

I�m wondering if anyone can help me in furthering my understanding and knowledge of Islam, I would like to have my questions and queries answered if they can, it seems they are being ignored and I stay in the area of wondering�

If anyone can help it would be appreciated because I can�t go on further, I�m left with my thoughts without no correction. But sometimes I have to wonder about the silence � is it that I am already correct in my thinking and understanding of certain verse of the qu�ran, because this is somewhat different I normally get responses or some kind of action if I am wrong.

I have moved on from basic understanding to a more intermediate understanding I believe.

I have placed all my relevant thoughts and posts about the issue under one thread so its all together for easier viewing. But it is mostly the post my thoughts and my views part 2 that is of concern here as I have proper references I believe are relevant and what my thoughts or my understandings are and along the way pose questions/queries.

Everything to me is legimite and sincere and truthful from my end, I feel some people do wonder and want to find out also. But for my own sake of knowledge I want something. I am trying to have an intellectual discussion from my end, I have laid everything out and is open. I don�t want any crap such as you�re only arguing for the sake of arguing or this is dumb or this is boring or entertainment purposes because all that is incorrect, I am serious here in searching the truth and in asking, in knowing, those that are long time regulars should know this of me.

As I have said before if anyone of you don�t know or can�t help me, then that is totally fine, all I ask is that you say so.

Israfil, since most of my posts are with you, they are still gathered because they contain important issues of mine, extra thoughts but you do not need to feel you need join because some of your points are there. It is up to you if you want to join in and help me. I am trying to put things together (if it can be) once and for all.

They are legit concerns, something that I believe should be enquired about.

There is a link to the old forum for some posts but I don�t think the link works so I have posted those posts beforehand before �my thoughts my view part 2�

Lets get started, read, ponder, ask others, come back and posts whatever you have.

Thank you in advance

Ah now my big post

My thoughts, My view � part 2

A disclaimer:
This essay is just my thoughts and I mean my thoughts even if it is similar or same as some others who may think like me,  I haveJinfact some do anyway, on the matter, so no need to get all tense ok?  tried my best to use authoritive sources that muslims use highly instead of media and opinions of others. And I�ll probably get that well versed quote: it�s a bad translation and / or you don�t understand, well I think I pretty much understand a lot and besides I have used proper resources so initially it�s not a bad translations. I also believe the verses are self evident, oh then there�s the other quote, you need to know arabic to fully understand it all, well, perhaps I don�t understand it all then because I only have English to go by and if that is a problem then God / Allah has made a big mistake that its for all people.

As for my thoughts on Prophet Muhammed, I haven�t spoken about them as such (my thoughts) and I am not going to yet, so do not jump to conclusions on what I think.

My reason for writing this is to try and get an understanding of these so called Islamic terrorists and what they use as a justification for their actions. Yes I know that other religions have fanatics and extremists and whatever other whatnots but they are in no way in comparison to Islamic ones, in my opinion, most especially these days.

Along with the two posts in the way forward thread which is kinda a continuation of my thoughts from there using references. If you like click here to read post 4 of 15 and 8 of 15: http://wb.islamicity.com:8080/ - Other version of Bukhari has:
�I have been ordered by God to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger, and that they establish prayer and pay Zakat (money). If they do it, their blood and their property are safe from me" (see Bukhari Vol. I, p. 13).

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 63:
Narrated Al-Bara:
A man whose face was covered with an iron mask (i.e. clad in armor) came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first? "The Prophet said, "Embrace Islam first and then fight." So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, A Little work, but a great reward. "(He did very little (after embracing Islam), but he will be rewarded in abundance)."

The Accession:
� [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. �
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0& ;byte=267454

There are more, all you have to do is do your learning and search.
I think these few above speak quite clearly without deep explaination.

Yes yes, ok, I know there are verses in the Bible also but we are talking about Islam and terrorists who calls themselves muslim, here, not other groups and do you really think that is a justification for what is happening today ? Christians have pretty much put them behind them and not adovacate them, the church has learnt if they want to keep their followers they had to change.

People will find out for themselves these days anyway, you cannot stop the flow of information

From: Sahih Bukhari:
� Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause." �


Well we know that some terrorists call themselves muslim and has belief in Allah and they believe that they are being oppressed and/or their brothers and sisters are oppressed, so they do as the qu�ran says, they are going out in fighting those who fight against them. They believe the West is against them (well in a way yes) so they fight them. Are they really wrong then ? (Although I think this is a cop out, a lie for some to justify their actions so they wouldn�t get much blame among their peers) :

A verse that helps support:

From: Sahih Bukhari:
� Volume 3, Book 43, Number 622:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . " �

I guess greatly why the muslim leaders in the Middle East hold onto their brothers and not hand them over to the opposition to be prosecuted or the leaders to prosecute and bring justice to them for wrong doing on both muslims and non muslims.

The verse for self defense:

� And fight in the Way of All�h those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, All�h likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jih�d, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)]. (Al-Baqarah 2:190 )

Verily, the number of months with All�h is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by All�h on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred, (i.e. the 1st, the 7th, the 11th and the 12th months of the Isl�mic calendar). That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and fight against the Mushrik�n (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h) collectively[], as they fight against you collectively. But know that All�h is with those who are Al-Muttaq�n (the pious - see V.2:2). (At-Tawbah 9:36) �

For the transgressing not the limits, well when you got the verses that I supplied above, where does the limit stop ? � when one is dead because they won�t submit to Allah and his messenger ? or because they have a slightly different view than what should be ?

I would love to believe there are limits but I have a hard time believing so, the qur�an or should I say Allah has mixed messages there, I really cannot believe this is God�s work let a lone words.
How can God advocate the killing of a people ? such as the Jews and as the qu�ran verse seems to mention:

From: Sahih Bukhari:
� Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " �

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." �
Sure�.., that�s a blow to the Jews thinking that they will be treated with kindness, coming from the same line of monotheism along with Christianity � O�People of the book.�

How is that teaching tolerance ?
Also this verse below from: http://www.al-bukhari.org/Chapter4.html

�10. Inna allatheena kafaroo lan tughniya AAanhum amwaluhum wala awladuhum mina Allahi shayan waolaika hum waqoodu alnnari
Those people who have adopted the path of infidelity (Kufr), neither their wealth nor their offspring will benefit them against All�h. They will become fuels of the Hell.

11. Kadabi ali firAAawna waallatheena min qablihim kaththaboo biayatina faakhathahumu Allahu bithunoobihim waAllahu shadeedu alAAiqabi
Their end will be like, as it has been of the companions of Fir'aun and of the disobedients before them that they denied the revelation (Ay�t) of All�h -- the consequence was that All�h caught them for their sins and that All�h is Severe in punishment. �

Well that is plain not nice, is that suppose to be tolerance of another people ??

� "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Surat At-Tauba 9:29"�

In the same suras:
� "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem� �

*****Well�guess I�m doomed ;-))))******

I don�t know about you but slay means kill.

It is known that muslims, moderate muslims also get hurt, oppressed by Islamic terrorists, and it is also a duty for other muslims such as moderate muslims to fight these so called muslim terrorists, you also need to fight the oppressors that oppress you. And in the qur�an it seems a strong advice/order. In this case the same verse from above:


�And fight in the Way of All�h those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, All�h likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jih�d, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)]. (Al-Baqarah 2:190 ) �

And from: http://www.al-bukhari.org/Chapter4.html

216. Kutiba AAalaykumu alqitalu wahuwa kurhun lakum waAAasa an takrahoo shayan wahuwa khayrun lakum waAAasa an tuhibboo shayan wahuwa sharrun lakum waAllahu yaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona
You have been commanded for a war (Jih�d) and you do not like it-- it may be that you dislike one thing and the same thing might be good for you. And it could be that you like one thing and the same might be bad for you. All�h knows, you do not know. (R) 10 �

I�ve come to learn that there is different levels of Jihad, not just personal struggle and physical fighting But to stick with the issue at hand, I�ll provide the reference below: from: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng which is: www.islam-qa.com

� Shaykh �Abd al-�Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
�Jihad is of various kinds, with one�s self, one's wealth, by making du�aa�, by teaching and guiding, by helping to do good in any way. The greatest form of jihad is jihad with one�s self (i.e., going oneself and fighting), followed by jihad with one's wealth, jihad by speaking out and guiding others. Da�wah is also part of jihad. But going out oneself to fight in jihad is the highest form.
(Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 7/334, 335) �

Note the last bit, the hightest form of jihad, it seems to be above the fight with one self even thou is it the greatest form of jihad.
And we also have this from: www.islam-qa.com

�Shaykh �Abd al-�Azeez ibn Baaz said:
�We have previously explained on more than one occasion that jihad is fard kafaayah, not fard �ayn. All Muslims are enjoined to support their brothers with their selves (i.e., physically, by joining them), or with money, weapons, da�wah and advice. If enough of them go out (to fight), the rest are freed from sin, but if none of them do that then all of them are sinners. �

I must admit majority of the explanation from islaam q&a.com regarding Jihad I agree with and wouldn�t rule it out.
Let�s continue.

In my search, I also came across something that makes deceiving another lawful which I thought was wrong:

��Umar ibn al-Khattaab wrote to the commander of an army that he had sent out: �I have heard that some men among you look for kaafirs, then when they run to hide in difficult mountainous terrain they say, �Do not be afraid,� then when they catch up with them they kill them. By the one in whose hand is my soul, if I hear that anyone has done that I will chop off his head.�
It was narrated that Abu Muslimah said: � �Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: �By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if any one of you were to point to the sky [i.e., a gesture to imply that he will not harm him] to make a mushrik come down to him and then kill him, I would kill him for that.� �

And here is a verse in the qur�an which makes it alright to deceive, if I have the right understanding,, from Sahih Bukhari:

� Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf." �

This really has to make me think, for what because the guy hurt Allah ??
Since I haven�t came across this verse before perhaps I do have a misunderstanding, I just don�t get it get deceived and killed for hurting Allah, hurt how ? It�s totally wrong in my eyes.
Isn�t Allah Al-mighty and powerful and wise enough to not get hurt, especially by us mere humans ?


If I understood well this explanation mentions that tricks and deception is allowed to achieve your goals but not treachery. Sure�, that others deceive to achieve their goals but its not exactly for religious stake and I don�t nessecarily dispute deception in war, everyone does it but if its just for plainly to kill without proper justice then I�m against it.

Here is the section of explanation from: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng which is: www.islam-qa.com :

�Islam has forbidden treachery, and treachery is not one of the kinds of tricks and deception that are permitted in war.
This Islamic sharee�ah makes a distinction between the kinds of deceit that are permitted and that which involves treachery and breaks treaties. �

I must underline the words � �treachery� is NOT one of the tricks and deception that are permitted� So this leaves me to think that deceit of wanting to kill a person because they may have said a bad thing about Allah or Muhammed then it is allowed.
Is this wrong in anybody�s eyes ? This is not just about denouncing a person nor banishing him from home but murdering him or her.

There is a verse that is troubling and it seems to take away the responsibility of a person, mentioning that it is Allah instead doing., so how can one be brought to blame and be accountable for his actions ? I really believed that you were accountable and no one else, in Islam.

The verse from:
http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm ?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=2

The accession:
� 8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand. �

So here we have some justifications for the so called Islamic terrorists, for the ones who do so in self defense � fight those who fight you and for those (which is about ALL muslims) who have orders to do so otherwise because Islam is only the one that should be ruling, religion of Truth, on earth.

So tell me, how can there be or one to believe islam is tolerance, peace among people, letting others live how they want to live, being equal, when faced with all this ?

And nowdays people are able to get information and read and learn for themselves about such things, there is not much control of information. And as they say in the library world, free flow of information is the right of the people, they have a right for information at their disposal, minus the private details of a person of course ;-).



I have found some interesting articles that I feel are highly recommended for the average muslim, which I also like. Just the links are provided, read them if you like.

Islamic Spirituality, the forgotten revolution by Abdal-Hakim Murad:
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/fgtnrevo.htm

Faith & Reason: Muslim terrorists embrace a very secular heresy,
The Prophet taught that to find the enemy of peace we must look inwards - not out at others
By Abdal Hakim Murad:
http://argument.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=51 6991&host=6&dir=140

A Time for Introspection.
"The worst enemies of Islam are from within", writes American convert scholar of Islam
by Hamza Yusuf:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/hamza01.htm

Monkey See, Monkey Do" - Not An Islamic Ideal:
http://www.muslim-answers.org/blog/2004/09/monkey-see-monkey -do-not-islamic-ideal.html#comments


While I agree to most of what is said in these above articles, only to some extent because alittle of it contradicts the verses above but nevertheless I brought them here to share with you guys :-)

See I�m not that bad afterall ;-)))))




An end disclaimers, I am not challenging anyone or even to prove back, I do not ask anyone to accept what I have talked about, you have your views and thoughts also and you are entitled to them. No matter what I brought of my thoughts here about this issue, I don�t denounce islam, never have nor peace loving friendly muslims - I just denounce the above and the next section of my essay.
I know there is some good things that islam offers :-), its seems its a matter of sifting thru the bad stuff.
In fact I like this verse that Muhammed mentions:

:[QURAN 4.94] "O you who believe! When you go to
war in Allah's way, make Investigation and do not say
to any one who offers you peace: "You are not a
believer". "Do you seek goods of this worlds life?
But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were
such before, then Allah conferred a benifit on you:
Therefore make investigation: surly Allah is aware of
what you do.

I wish this would be but it seems that other verses counteract it :-(

:Allah's Apostle said, 'The best among you are those
who have the best manners and character.'


Islam does as any other religions does make sure it survives and proves others are false ;-)

No one knows anything ? no one can help ?

Hi Angel,

Sorry, it is a lot to digest!  I would suggest that a good place to start would be for you to read some tafsir, especially of verses you have questions/confusion about.  This is a good site, and I believe the tafsir there (by ibn Kathir) is considered very sound:

http://www.tafsir.com - www.tafsir.com

I would be happy to try to answer any individual or specific questions you have, but my poor "leaky" brain cannot tackle all your concerns at once.  Your above posts are gone from my head by the time I get to the third paragraph , sorry!  I wish I could be of more help.  I am more than willing to try to tackle one thing at a time.  Maybe someone else can be far more helpful.

I would at least offer this: investigate with an open heart and an open mind!  I do hope you find the answers you seek.

Peace, ummziba

Ummziba is kinda rite........, i dont think i hv read all u wrote very carefully, but only the verse of quran and footnotes u provided.

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24"..."

Here fight may also mean to strive(Jihad), that is Prophet(PBUH) says that he will try or strive till they believe in Allah and his messenger.Sad, yes, the so called TERRORISTS will wrongly interpet  them.

But Quran should be seen as 100% truth and these hadith should be filtered."...And if one of you killed a man..(unjustly), it is like he has killed the whole humanity."-or words to these effect are in Quran.

The next Hadith and the verse u point were actually of time when a battle was in progress.

Next, u urself pointed with the title that it is SELF DEFENCE and not offence!Allah dont like transgressor, that is, he asked us not to kill those who r not fighting, but KILL those who have come to KILL us.Justice, aint it?Sure u r not going to give em tea who come to kill u?Also, these people hv not been nice with muslims, and till then muslim were asked to tolerate.

Yes u r rite.If u dont believe in One God and commit shirk, then u r going to burn in hell.Why?Because, if u dont believe in the God who created u, gave u shelter, etc,etc, and u insult Him, the outcome wont be nice, trust me.

"Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem� Ah, my fav. topic this.Firstly, this surah was revealed during the battle of badr.Secondly, did u read all the verse in this surah?Or were u toooooo engrosed in copying and pasting?Well, read again.When Allah asked the then muslim to fight, he says in another surah not to harm those who dont want to fight and ESCORT THEM TO SAFETY.Which army general would ask his soldier to show so much heart?Thats wat is in Quran.

Deceived:try to deceieve some one else.Any fool with two eyes will see tht it was an SPECIAL PERMISSION given by prophet(PBUH) to kill that person, who had commited lots of crime against muslim but was difficult to catch.

Last, the verse is about the battle of badr and Allah says that it was He who defeated the ary of pagan, so dont take credit, rather thank God.

I hope against hope u r satisfied.

Thanx,

Dayem bin Anwar.

Thanks Dayem and Ummziba,

ummziba, yes its a lot to digest and I don't expect you or anyone else to tackle it all at once  I did my research and put it together over days. So if you want to still go ahead with this... 

And I cannot get any specific other than what I have done, everything I have enquired and asked and what my understanding might be are all there  I cannot do any more.

I believe it is something for both muslims and non muslims to tackle and learn and try to understand why certain things are, why the so called islamic terrorists/extremists, (they do call themselves muslim and profess to follow the Prophet and God's law the qu'ran), are the way they are and do what they do. Is it really that "ALL" do have a misunderstanding of what true islam is ? What is true islam anyway - is it what the terrorists/extremists/fundamentalists say or is what the moderate (sorry have to use that word) muslims say it is ? 

Dayem wrote: i dont think i hv read all u wrote very carefully, but only the verse of quran and footnotes u provided.

Then how can you help me ?  

Dear Angel,

O.K., here is one small part of your concerns.  You posted:

From: Sahih Bukhari:
� Volume 3, Book 43, Number 622:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . " �

I guess greatly why the muslim leaders in the Middle East hold onto their brothers and not hand them over to the opposition to be prosecuted or the leaders to prosecute and bring justice to them for wrong doing on both muslims and non muslims.

Now, I am not a scholar, nor do I even pretend to understand the complicated world of the science of ahadith.  But I think the two following Qur'an verses will help explain the Muslim stance on justice.  I believe the hadith quoted above does not instruct Muslims to obstruct justice or protect Muslims who have committed wrongs from justice.  I believe that the above hadith instructs Muslims to protect one another from oppressors.  There is a big difference from protecting someone from an oppressor and trying to obstruct justice.

Here are the two verses, and I hope this does help you see a bit more clearly on this issue at least:

"O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both.  Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do."  Qur'an an nisa 4:135

"O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice.  Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah.  For Allah is well acquainted with all that you do."  Qur'an al ma'idah 5:8

To protect someone from oppression is doing justice, to sheild someone from justice goes against Allah's words in the Qur'an.  Does this help?

Peace, ummziba.

Dear Angel,

Again, I am not a scholar, nor even a very learned person, but, I do want to try to help you understand the things that are puzzling you.  So, I'll attempt my humble opinion on what you said here:

I'll ask again, why is there no action taken against the terrorists from muslims ?

I would have to ask you, what is it you feel we Muslims should be doing as action against the terrorists?  There is no world governing body for Muslims, the caliphate disappeared with Ottoman Turkey.  Now, we have many Muslim countries, but, as I am sure you know, they are not governed by Islamic law (with the possible exception of Iran, which has twisted Islamic law into a mess).

So, one can hardly expect the corrupt dictatorships, false kingdoms and puppet governments of the Muslim countries to do anything about this (certainly not in the name of Islam!).  Who would take action against the terrorists then?  Ordinary Muslims?  How?  The United Nations?  Don't hold your breath on that one!  A rogue army of fed up Muslims who want to put things right?  In your dreams .  Wouldn't such an army be considered mercenaries or terrorists by many anyway?  And who would lead them?  Pay for them?  Organize them?

Do you see where I am going with this?  The only thing the average Muslim can do is to continue to spread the word of Islam and show by our example how Muslims are supposed to act.  What else would you have us do?

Angel, there are many, many good Muslims in the world.  The sad part is, we seldom hear about them, the news sells a lot more advertising with sensational stories.  I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make and I hope I haven't come across as a smart aleck - I am only trying my best to help you with your concerns.

In my humble opinion,  when it comes to terrorists, many people worry too much about, think too much about, pay too much attention to, focus on them more than they are worth, and get way too out of kilter over them.  And that is exactly what the terrorists probably want us to do.  Life goes on.....

Peace, ummziba.

Hi Angel,

Don't you consider Leaders of Pakistan any Muslims? or don't you consider the present government of Afghanistan Muslim? On the same note, don't you know that its 90% of Iraqi Muslims who get killed in the bomb attacks either by the rebels or by the occupying forces?

I can only say that day to day observations are not substantiated by your assertions. Yes, terrorists do take the support of religion. But this is not unique to Muslims only. At this time the word 'terrorists' circulate around Muslims as 'Islamic terrorists', whereas in the past, it used to be called as "crusaders" etc.

The verses from the quran are simply presented out of context and hence misinterpreted.  Yes, Quran does guide us to fight, but to fight against the agressor. Similarly, when in the strategem of war, Muslims should steadfast and not turn away; and similarly many more guiding principles. Of course, fighting had been in the past, fighting is in the present and fighting shall remain in the future as well with the history of man kind. So, how can Muslims be negelected for this important part of human life. But again, its only against the agressors.

I hope I have clearified some of your misconceptions about guidance of war with regard to Quran. If not, feel free to ask more. Till then, take care.

AhmadJoyia wrote: The verses from the quran are simply presented out of context and hence misinterpreted.

how, where, show me, give examples, put the correct meaning where it is wrong (if wrong)

Do actually know everything properly in all I have presented in my thoughts my view ?

If things are wrong, then correct it, telling me that verses are misinterpreted and/or out of context, doesn't show me anything or teaches me what is the correct meaning.

I hope I have clearified some of your misconceptions about guidance of war with regard to Quran. If not, feel free to ask more. Till then, take care.

Actually you really haven't cleared up anything  

And by the way, ALL my questions and queries are in the post, the post is one big query  

ummziba wrote: Do you see where I am going with this?  The only thing the average Muslim can do is to continue to spread the word of Islam and show by our example how Muslims are supposed to act.  What else would you have us do?

I understand your point, So does this render the points and views in my posts all wrong ? Are all the points from quran and hadith wrong? Do all need extensive explanation and none not taken literally ?

ummziba wrote: "O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both.  Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do."  Qur'an an nisa 4:135 "O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice.  Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah.  For Allah is well acquainted with all that you do."  Qur'an al ma'idah 5:8 To protect someone from oppression is doing justice, to sheild someone from justice goes against Allah's words in the Qur'an.  Does this help? Peace, ummziba.

yeah a bit

Angel wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: The verses from the quran are simply presented out of context and hence misinterpreted.  how, where, show me, give examples, put the correct meaning where it is wrong (if wrong) Do actually know everything properly in all I have presented in my thoughts my view ? If things are wrong, then correct it, telling me that verses are misinterpreted and/or out of context, doesn't show me anything or teaches me what is the correct meaning.

First of all one must try to understand the difference between the Quranic verses and the Ahadith. Without realizing this difference, one is bound to understand things contrary to the actual. For example, here is the mistake, when you say

" ... How can God advocate the killing of a people ? such as the Jews and as the qu�ran verse seems to mention: "

and then you put forward this

"From: Sahih Bukhari: � Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " � "

It must be realized that not everything in Arabic is Quran. Here is another similar mistake once your say

"How is that teaching tolerance ? Also this verse below from: http://www.al-bukhari.org/Chapter4.html �10. Inna allatheena kafaroo lan tughniya AAanhum amwaluhum wala awladuhum mina Allahi shayan waolaika hum waqoodu alnnari Those people who have adopted the path of infidelity (Kufr), neither their wealth nor their offspring will benefit them against All�h. They will become fuels of the Hell. 11. Kadabi ali firAAawna waallatheena min qablihim kaththaboo biayatina faakhathahumu Allahu bithunoobihim waAllahu shadeedu alAAiqabi Their end will be like, as it has been of the companions of Fir'aun and of the disobedients before them that they denied the revelation (Ay�t) of All�h -- the consequence was that All�h caught them for their sins and that All�h is Severe in punishment. � "

It is this misunderstanding of Quran, that probably led you make a false opinion about Islam. If you simply correct this problem, that is, to seperate Quranic verses from others, it would be rather easier for me to explain the verses of Quran that you think are not tolerent from human perspective.

I hope I have clearified some of your misconceptions about guidance of war with regard to Quran. If not, feel free to ask more. Till then, take care. Actually you really haven't cleared up anything   And by the way, ALL my questions and queries are in the post, the post is one big query

As you amalgamated everything on Islam, suffice was for me to show there are many within the Islam fighting against the evil of extremism. If your questions get specific, so shall my response be.

Bismillah,

Angel,

There are rules of war that Muslims follow.  When people break these very important rules, they can be considered non-Muslims, or at least hell bound.  You can do a search for the rules.  I need to take a walk with my child right now.

AhmadJoyia wrote: If your questions get specific, so shall my response be.

I am already specific enough and thorough to,  and also I have laid out everything. How much more specific do you want me to be? I cannot do anymore, sorry  

If you truly cannot help, then fine.

Angel wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: If your questions get specific, so shall my response be. I am already specific enough and thorough to,  and also I have laid out everything. How much more specific do you want me to be? I cannot do anymore, sorry   If you truly cannot help, then fine.

Ironically, your incorrect "thoroughness" is of little value. Missunderstanding ahadith as a Quranic verses is very naive, if nothing else. Don't you think?

AhmadJoyia wrote: [ Ironically, your incorrect "thoroughness" is of little value.

thanks very much

I'll just say ignorant then! and anyone who wants to know what is right and incorrect!

Missunderstanding ahadith as a Quranic verses is very naive, if nothing else. Don't you think?

Nope. I'm not muslim so, sorry for this naivity!  

For all the time here and getting to know islam fairly well, the one thing I haven't grasped is the difference or the know how to differentiate between hadith and quran verses.!

Sorry for this inconvenience on your part, afterall I as a non muslim am here to learn where things are incorrect with my understanding.

If you know something and you're not helping because of the mix up I have with the difference of verses then this on your part is silly!

Are my observations in my posts really all wrong ? or do I have some inkling that some are correct ?

Angel, this may sound really silly, but, perhaps you could really clear up a lot of your own confusion about Islam by reading a good interpretation of the meaning of the Qur'an in English (one with commentary would be most helpful to you - try A. Yusuf Ali, or Muhammad Asad).

That way, you would see for yourself exactly what is in the Qur'an.  Hadith can be a very confusing 'science' even to Muslims - how the string of narrators works, which are weak or strong, reliable sources....  Start with the Qur'an, I think it would really be helpful to you.

After you have read it (perhaps it could be your personal goal for Ramadhan! ), you may find all of your questions or confusion cleared up.  If not, I am sure some of us can try to help you again.  I don't know what other advice to give you at this point .  Read the Qur'an, Angel, then we will see what confusion you still have to clear up, O.K.?

(We are not scholars here, just regular people - so, when in doubt, go to the source! )

Peace, ummziba.

I meantioned it many times, I know you guys here aren't scholars

I thought maybe we all can tackle this together and talk about it and help each other, I guess not.

I don't know what I was thinking  

I do really believe that you guys don't no much about it either, so you can't help, that's fine

Hi Angel, I guess it would be not prudent to put everything on the Muslim members of this forum to reply the obivous misunderstandings of someone, even though they have been explictly highlighted. Nevertheless, I may try to pick up your points from your big muddle of postings and see how it can be appropriately replied. I don't know how you want to go about it replies, however, here is your post.

Sure I agree with that but what if one calls themselves something as in this case 'islamic terrorists' proclaim to follow the quran and proclaim to be muslim, then what ? Are we just going to ignore it ?

No, we must not ignore it. Rather ask for evidence as from where in Quranic verses are they referring to? Secondly, do they have any scholarly opinion on which they have based based their interpretation or at least do they have any logic in their view?

As I have said many times before for muslims, if one proclaims to be muslim you ought to believe them, its in the quran is not ?

Bellieving them in what sense? One may believe in their seriousness but its a totally a different thing if one believe in the correctness of their proclamations. Isn't it? Every claim must be verified against the references e.g. Quran etc, if they provide any.

And in a way islamic terrorists are fighting for islam so really you cannot denouce that either.

That is an assertion without evidence. Would you consider all crusaders fought for Christianity? I don't think so. Do you?

One says they are fighting for true islam and the other says they are also fighting for true islam, which is it, who is right ?

Very simple. Go for evidence they provide from the references and then consult those who know the scripture to find out who is right and who is wrong.

No one stands up to the terrorists and say to them they are wrong nor to the world. If these terrorists are so wrong then somethings got to be done! But nothing is.

This again a misleading statement. Who are the victims of these terrorists? Aren't the Muslims themselves? You seemed to ignore my argument of highlighting the efforts of Muslim countries, such as Pakistan, to resist such fanatics.

The answer that seems to float around its the west fault and its the US faults, and that they should pull out then the terrorists acts will stop, that is a load of crap. Sorry to say and I'm not enitrely excusing the US or the West, I own they got stuff to be blamed for. Everytime this issue comes up I bring up the same and what is excepted of a muslim and it never gets refuted. You can't say that not its islamic.

Kindly see my comments about this on this forum at http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2077&PN=1&TPN=8 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2077& ; ; ;PN=1&TPN=8  and also see page 9 of the same thread.

If the terrorists are so wrong and wrong about the quran, then do something! You can't say that the media has got it wrong and others got it wrong when the terrorists proclaim otherwise. Sure the terrorists maybe just a handful among the 1 billion other muslims but surely 1 billion can out do the terrorists if a mass demostration and action is against them (terrorists) I can tell you now that if things are going the way it is then the terrorists will gain their islam. While nothing gets done, the terrorists have won anyway and you know what they know it because they know what is prescribe in the quran and what fellow musims must do.

It is not correct to say that nothing is being done by Muslims. Muslims are resisting these people both intellectually as well as physically.

And another thing, how can those in proverty be terrorists they don't have the means to get arms. The proverty get sucked in by the promise if they fight for islam they will have all the good in heaven, Jannah. No, it is the well off people who are educated both in islam and qur'an. It is those (terrorists) that are fighting for islam under the milltary guidence in the qu'ran. If I am wrong then correct me.

Yes, you are  absolutely wrong in this view. Yes, they may be well off people, but fanaticism is not exclusive to poors; Yes, they may be educated people; however, their education is in everything but the Quran. Not every modern learned Muslim can be taken for granted to be learned in Islam as well. This is especially true for those living in non-Muslim countries.

I want to know why the many muslims who say that the islamic terrorists are wrong and yet do not fight them, are they (terrorists) not fighting against Islam ? Aren't you suppose to be fighting for islam also ? fight those who fight against you.

O my sister, what kind of fighting are you talking about? As I said, fighting against is going on on both intellectual as well as at physical level, but by the appropriate people. Your assertions are really beyond comprehension.

I wonder what the Prophet would do ? Angel.

Bismillah,

Angel,

I don't support George Bush's terrorism or that of Al-Qaeda.  I know that Allah, SWT, will punish them both because leaders who lead people astray are the most deserving of punishment. (Maybe they'll have to live in little houses beside each other that get flooded a lot.)

You are not the only one who has announced that you think Muslims should stop other Muslims from terrorizing people.  As Ahmad pointed out, the terrorists are terrorizing Muslims more than anyone.  More Muslims have died in Iraq than anyone else!

So, let's pray against evil despots who abuse people, power, money, weapons and time to achieve their goals.

Those same terrorists wouldn't consider me a Muslim, and they wouldn't blink twice to kill me or you if it benefited them.  I don't consider murderers of Muslims and others to be accepted by Allah, SWT.  Why would they be?

(We had a lovely walk, by the way.)