To Muslim women:

I have been looking at some things from the Qu'ran about women. Now I recognize that Islam at the time of its inception was far ahead of most other cultures and religions in the world in terms of women�s rights. But that was 1400 years ago, I am wonder what modern Muslim women say about some quotes in the Qu�ran today:

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

-or-

[2:223] Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. You shall observe GOD, and know that you will meet Him. Give good news to the believers.

Basically the message is the same, that women are only a means to an end for a man. The man thus can have sex with her whenever and however he wants. Now this part puts in some questions:

�so long as you maintain righteousness�

I suspect that this means this:

�send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah,�

Not to be righteous in relation to the woman, but to be righteous as in fearing God. Basically if you are a believer of the faith and Allah, you are righteous.

Now is my analysis incorrect? Is there something missing, is there a contradictory quote from the Qu�ran? Or is the spirit of the Qu�ran greater then this one quote? As a Muslim woman how do you feel about a man having privilege?

Please help me understand what Muslim women think�

Nico wrote:Not to be righteous in relation to the woman, but to be righteous as in fearing God. Basically if you are a believer of the faith and Allah, you are righteous. Now is my analysis incorrect?

Yes, your analysis is incorrect. Fearing Allah means to do the right thing by His creation. If the treatment to the woman is unfair then one cannot be righteous to God. I am giving you a brief reply and there are many articles on the web about the status of women in Islam. I am sure some of the more knowledgeable members here will answer your question God willing.

Nico,

Here is a good tafsir that explains verse 2:233:

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5921 - http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5921

In fact, you will find there can be much to learn by reading through the whole site http://www.tafsir.com - www.tafsir.com .

It is always better to get one's knowledge of Islam from reliable, scholarly sources.  People here at this forum are just regular folk, and not scholars at all.

As far as how I feel about "a man having privliage", I do not know where you get such an idea.  Men and women are equal in the sight of Allah, they both have rights concerning the other - like a perfectly complementary pair, completing one another. 

I hope this was helpful.  Do look to reliable sources for your information to avoid much confusion.

Peace, ummziba.

So nico, get the correct meaning first, question later.

Best of Luck, Dayem.

A means to What end???

To those who call me ignorant, I never claimed knowledge so to call me ignorant is incorrect. I came from a point of ignorance and asking the wise for their advice.

Now like I said I am happy that you all have been able to give quotes from other parts of the Qu�ran which tell me the spirit of the Qu�ran in relation to women. But none of you have touched on this part of the quote:

Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness.

That is the part of which I am having trouble with, so mind my ignorance but please help me understand. From what I read from that quote and what you wise people have told me seems to contradict, for instance:

Fearing Allah means to do the right thing by His creation. If the treatment to the woman is unfair then one cannot be righteous to God.

That makes sense to me, but it contradicting the first part of the quote to which a man may enjoy his �priviledge� however you likes�meaning does it not that there are no restrictions. Then the quote supports you but saying if the man remains �righteous� (which means?) do tell me what that means, from what I have been able to read thanks to Tafsir that most likely means not having sex in the anus with a woman, but all other acts of sex with a woman is ok�does this also include rape? If no�why not? Now lets not go stray away to other parts of the Qu�ran where women do have rights�lets stick on this quote so I may be able to understand from obviously wise members of the forum to educate me.

nico wrote: Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. ..but all other acts of sex with a woman is ok�does this also include rape? If no�why not?

Rape is not ok. Why? Well, the verse itself explains it - "so long as you maintain righteousness." Now to define righteousness, we have to look elsewhere in the Quran where righteousness is mentioned. Off the top of my head, I know that rape would be at least be considered adultery, which is definitely unrighteous.

Sori I am confused

Why would a man want to rape his wife?

Do non-muslim men rape their wives?

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem, In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful,

Nico, your interpretation is YOURS.  No Muslims look at this topic in the manner you present, none.

As for myself, my husband of many, many years is and always has been a perfect gentleman regard to this topic.  Husbands and wives are garments for each other, protecting, loving, and supporting each other, hiding one anothers' human impefections, and making each other look better than either one would alone.  When our Loving Lord tells a husband to approach his wife with righteousness, that says that whatever he does, God knows, and he must be as perfect as he can be in our Forgiving Lord's sight. 

A Muslim husband's responsibility to behave properly is clearly stated here.  And a man  who has Taqwa (fear of displeasing the one he loves most -- Allah, SWT) always takes care to never harm anyone, especially his wife.  What is harm regarding this topic?  Anything that displeases her in regard to this would be harmful and should not be considered.

Lots of non-Muslims don't like the tilth simile.  Get past it and think clearly and study all the references you can that the sisters and brothers have provided to you.

The assumption Nico is making is that Islam permits rape; that is, Nico believes Islam permits a man to literally force his wife to have sex if he desires to have it and to force her to have sex with him in any manner that he desires without taking into consideration how his wife feels about the issue.  Nico obviously doesn�t know anything about the history behind this ayat and what it is referring to.  I strongly suggest to Nico that he/she go and learn about Jewish history and the common practice of the way a married couple had sex.  This ayat is a means to correct that practice.  Furthermore, the preposition, �Thus, you may enjoy this privilege however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness� is a conclusion.  We know this by the word �Thus� which it begins with.  It is a conditional conclusion:  A is true only if B is also true.  That is �you may enjoy this privilege however you like� is true only if �so long as you maintain righteousness� is also true.   So, the first part doesn�t contradict the second part at all.  The first part is actually conditional based upon the truthfulness of the second part.  If the second part is false, then the first part is necessarily false too.  In other words, a man can enjoy the privilege of having his wife however he likes only if he is able to maintain righteousness.  If he cannot maintain righteousness, then he is not allowed the privilege of having his wife however he likes.  This implies that a man must not only know what is righteous, he must be able to do what it is that is righteous.  Any righteous Muslim man will know that enjoying the privilege of having his wife the way he likes doesn�t entail rape.  In fact, he would know that it is not righteous to have his wife in any way that affects her negatively.  He should not want her to do something that would affect her Islamic haya. 

When I read Nico's comments I instantly got this image of a cave man in one of those old cave man cartoon where he simply goes up to a woman, knocks her over the head with his club, drags her to his cave and has her the way he likes.  It is very sad that there are people in this world who are so narrow minded to think that a faith based upon the Divine Revelation of God would condone such actions.  You can easily tell by a person's approach to Islam whether his/her approach is based upon some biased view that Islam is barbaric. 

Nico, I am a Muslim woman.  Despite the misconceptions of many individuals, Islam is not a faith that gives privileges to men and not women.  Women have rights over their husbands as well, especially in the area of sexual satisfaction.  The only reason a man has any degree over a women is based upon the fact this it is his duty to provide for her maintenance which includes to house her, cloth her, feed her and provide for the other things she needs.  Also, he is to do this in kindness.  Because men do this, they receive more inheritance than women do.  A woman�s money is hers and she need never spend it on her maintenance.  A man also has the ultimate say in important matters of family life.   This doesn�t mean that women are not allowed to have a say or that a man should not listen to their wife�s input.  It simply means that someone has to be the final decision maker.  To be honest with you, as a woman that was previously a non-Muslim, I truly believe the concept of marriage life in Islam is beautiful.  If an Islamic couple lives a righteous married life, there is no doubt they will enjoy a wonderful life of love, kindness, comfort and peace within a family unit that is well balance and blessed by God.

PAZ

Sister Khadija

Mmm... what about verse 4:34 from the Quran, which permits a man to beat his wife on fears of disloyalty alone?

I think this is not being fair to the womenfolk.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Not to be apologetic, what is "disloyalty" you think is referred in Quran verse 4:34?

The meaning of that word is irrelevant, because verse 4:34 prescribes punishment based on fear alone, not a strong evidence of any disloyalty.

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Trident wrote: My fears could be wrong. It could be based on a variety of assumptions, hearsay or even jealousy. This verse didn't mention that women should be beat only after gathering strong evidence of their disloyalty, but based on a man's insecure fears alone. How if I misjudged the situation? Would the women unfairly suffer as a result?

Your fears are unfounded if people are mindful of as what Quran teaches them to follow. However, if they omit all required actions what precedes word �beat� in the verse, only then, I think you are correct. But in that case, are we really following Quran? I don�t think so. Moreover, see the very next verse (4:35) that provides the complete solution to the issue. Hopefully you will not stop reading at one word but some verses before and after it, to make full understanding of the issue.

Bismillah,

On another occasion too, the husband is allowed to exercise his authority against the wife, and this too is an occasion where the wife`s conduct is openly immoral: � And as for those of your woman who are guilty of an indecency ( f�hish�h), call to witness against them four witnesses from among you; then if they bear witness, confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.�( 4:15 ).

How many of the Muslim countries look for four witnesses, and how many just take the "law" in their own hands?

There are so many if clauses in the commands that are ignored by the Brothers that if they started to pay attention to them, many of this world's problems would be solved.

We have this little rule in Appalachia that I like to use:  If he cheats, he's out of here! (Sometimes with a frying pan not far behind him.)

Assalamualaikum

[وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ]

(beat them) means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet said;

�وَاتَّقُ
608;ا اللهَ فِي النِّسَا 69;ِ، فَإِنَّه 15;نَّ عِنْدَكُ 05;ْ عَوَانٍ، وَلَكُمْ عَلَيْهِ 06;َّ أَنْ لَا يُوطِئْن 14; فُرُشَكُ 05;ْ أَحَدًا تَكْرَهُ 08;نَهُ،فَإ& #1616;نْ فَعَلْنَ &# 1584;َلِكَ فَاضْرِب 15;وهُنَّ ضَرْبًا غَيْرَ مُبَرِحٍ 48; وَلَهُنّ 14; عَلَيْكُ 05;ْ رِزْقُه ;ُنَّ وَكِسْوَ 78;ُهُنَّ بِالْمَع 18;رُوف�

(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.) Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.

[فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً]

(but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance),) meaning, when the wife obeys her husband in all that Allah has allowed, then no means of annoyance from the husband are allowed against his wife. Therefore, in this case, the husband does not have the right to beat her or shun her bed. Allah's statement,

[إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيّاً كَبِيراً]

(Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.) reminds men that if they transgress against their wives without justification, then Allah, the Ever Most High, Most Great, is their Protector, and He will exert revenge on those who transgress against their wives and deal with them unjustly.

[وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِقَاقَ بَيْنِهِمَا فَابْعَثُواْ حَكَماً مِّنْ أَهْلِهِ وَحَكَماً مِّنْ أَهْلِهَآ إِن يُرِيدَآ إِصْلَـحاً يُوَفِّقِ اللَّهُ بَيْنَهُمَآ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيماً خَبِيراً ]

(35. If you fear a breach between the two, appoint (two) arbitrators, one from his family and the other from her's; if they both wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation. Indeed Allah is Ever All-Knower, Well-Acquainted with all things.)

Assalamu Alaikum:

The Prophet Mohamed(PBUH) said that you should never strike anyone with anything larger than the miswak. For those who don't know, a miswak is a small twig of wood that Arabs used to clean their teeth. It is about 4 to 5 inches long and very small in diameter. The Prophet also said that Muslims should treat their wives as the Prophet treated his wives, and the Prophet never raised a hand to them.

In the Quran, if your wife is suspected of lewdness, you should first chastise her and ask her to correct her behavior. If this doesn't work, then you should turn from her: not sleep with her, until she corrects herself. If this second step doesn't work, then you may "beat" her, but this is only a symbolic "beating" meant to show your displeasure at her continued bad behavior.

We know this is symbolic do to the Hadith from the Prophet stating not to hit anyone with anything larger than a miswak held in the hand. Even a person's hand or fist would be larger than the miswak.  

Any Muslim man who beats his wife is doing something very wrong. The Prophet stated to the Ummah that the "best of you are the ones who treat your wives well."  

As for men having the right of rape:

The Prophet said: �None of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let there first be a messenger between you.� The Companions exclaimed, �What is that messenger?� The Prophet replied, �Kisses and (romantic) words!� (Reported by Al-Daylami)

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good (Qu�ran An-nisa 19)

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)" 

Assalamu Alaikum!

Sister Mishmish, Masha Allah very good post. I just would like to add here part of last sermon of Prophet ( SAW ) regarding how women should be treated in Islam.

"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste."

Peace

Bismillah,

Great post, Sister Mishmish.

I love the blessed Prophet's last speech, Brother Peacemaker.

If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness.

This, however, seems to address women who are supported financially by their husbands.  What about the women who support themselves or even the whole family, or who just contribute financially by working part-time? 

 What do you think?

Assalamu Alaikum!

"This, however, seems to address women who are supported financially by their husbands.  What about the women who support themselves or even the whole family, or who just contribute financially by working part-time? 

 What do you think?"

Good point, sister herjihad. Well, it is not the duty of women to work in order to feed themselves or even the whole family. But, if they do, following islamic principles, fulfilling their primary responsibilities as 'women in Islam', insha Allah they would be rewarded multi fold by Allah ( SWT ).  

Anything that involves going extra miles in the matters of faith and responsibilities assigned to Muslims by Allah (SWT ) will bring tremendous rewards insha Allah. Only on the day of judgement would we able to see, in reality, the enormous generosities of Allah ( SWT ).

Hope this helps.

Peace

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother Peacemaker, what is the husband simply refuses to support the wife and/or children?  What if he earns enough money to support the family yet simply is not doing so?  What if he makes enough money to support the family but he beleive it is the wife's responsible to also work and help pay the bills?  Is this a true Islamic marriagae?  What then becomes of her duties and obligations to him is the marriage?

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija

Assalamu Alaikum Sister Khadija:

May I answer your question?

Maintenance and protection is the one obligation in faith that Allah(SWT) has given men over women. It is not a choice but their duty. Quiwama (maintenance and protection) is your right as a woman, unless there is some reason such as sickness that prevents your husband from working.

If the woman does work outside the home, any money that she makes, along with any inheritance or money that she brought to the marriage is hers and her husband has no right to it. She is not obligated Islamically to share this money, although she may choose to do so.

This is an excerpt from The Status of Woman in Islam  by Dr. Jamal Badawi:

"Islam decreed a right of which woman was deprived both before Islam and after it (even as late as this century), the right of independent ownership. According to Islamic Law, woman's right to her money, real estate, or other properties is fully acknowledged. This right undergoes no change whether she is single or married. She retains her full rights to buy, sell, mortgage or lease any or all her properties. It is nowhere suggested in the Law that a woman is a minor simply because she is a female. It is also noteworthy that such right applies to her properties before marriage as well as to whatever she acquires thereafter.

With regard to the woman's right to seek employment it should be stated first that Islam regards her role in society as a mother and a wife as the most sacred and essential one. Neither maids nor baby-sitters can possibly take the mother's place as the educator of an upright, complex free, and carefully-reared children. Such a noble and vital role, which largely shapes the future of nations, cannot be regarded as "idleness".

However, there is no decree in Islam which forbids woman from seeking employment whenever there is a necessity for it, especially in positions which fit her nature and in which society needs her most. Examples of these professions are nursing, teaching (especially for children), and medicine. Moreover, there is no restriction on benefiting from woman's exceptional talent in any field. Even for the position of a judge, where there may be a tendency to doubt the woman's fitness for the post due to her more emotional nature, we find early Muslim scholars such as Abu-Hanifa and Al-Tabary holding there is nothing wrong with it. In addition, Islam restored to woman the right of inheritance, after she herself was an object of inheritance in some cultures. Her share is completely hers and no one can make any claim on it, including her father and her husband.

"Unto men (of the family) belongs a share of that which Parents and near kindred leave, and unto women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be a little or much - a determinate share." ((Qur'an 4:7).

Her share in most cases is one-half the man's share, with no implication that she is worth half a man! It would seem grossly inconsistent after the overwhelming evidence of woman's equitable treatment in Islam, which was discussed in the preceding pages, to make such an inference. This variation in inheritance rights is only consistent with the variations in financial responsibilities of man and woman according to the Islamic Law. Man in Islam is fully responsible for the maintenance of his wife, his children, and in some cases of his needy relatives, especially the females. This responsibility is neither waived nor reduced because of his wife's wealth or because of her access to any personal income gained from work, rent, profit, or any other legal means.

Woman, on the other hand, is far more secure financially and is far less burdened with any claims on her possessions. Her possessions before marriage do not transfer to her husband and she even keeps her maiden name. She has no obligation to spend on her family out of such properties or out of her income after marriage. She is entitled to the "Mahr" which she takes from her husband at the time of marriage. If she is divorced, she may get an alimony from her ex-husband.

An examination of the inheritance law within the overall framework of the Islamic Law reveals not only justice but also an abundance of compassion for woman."

Assalamu Alaikum!

Sister Khadija , I see that sister Mishmish has already answered Masha Allah. I still would like to post my reply in the hope that the status of women in Islam becomes more clear to us as opposed to many misconceptions in our societies.

"Brother Peacemaker, what if the husband simply refuses to support the wife and/or children?  What if he earns enough money to support the family yet simply is not doing so?  What if he makes enough money to support the family but he believes it is the wife's responsibility to also work and help pay the bills?  Is this a true Islamic marriage?  What then becomes of her duties and obligations to him in the marriage?"

As per islamic law ( shariah ), if a husband refuses to support his wife and/or children, she should speak to him and remind him about his duties towards her in the light of Qur�an and Sunnah so that he pays her due expenses ( basic and essential needs ). If he doesn�t comply with her request, she should speak to relatives and friends who are close to both, if nothing works out, and he continues to refuse to fulfill his responsibilities, and all the reconciliatory measures fail, she should take the matter to the court ( islamic court if available otherwise the jurisdiction she lives in ) that would order him to support wife / children. If he continues to violate court�s instructions, the responsibility of supporting her and children falls on the state, and the court may even proceed the matter of Khula ( islamic divorce at the request of wife ).

In a true islamic marriage, husband can�t force wife to work to pay bills. Both husband and wife should work together to fulfill their responsibilities amicably. Both have their status and responsibilities. Neither husband can take the position of wife, nor wife can take the position of husband. Allah has made them unique in everything. And that fact we should appreciate. Therefore, it would be foolish to ask if husband is superior to wife or wife is inferior to husband.

My father struggled all his life to take care of all responsibilities-mother, father, teacher etc due to my mother�s sickness. He worked outside and then did everything at home and provided all his children best education. He did all this with kindness. Never did he show us that he was doing any favour. When I look back at his life, I get the message that insha Allah he would be tremendously rewarded by Allah ( SWT ) for doing what was not his 'duty'. Likewise, there would be stories where mothers singlehandedly took up all the responsibilities. But, all this should come out of one�s own realization, free from any compulsion or force.

Islam respects and entitles women with rights that no system on the earth in the history ever did. Even today, in so called modern era, rights granted to women 1400 years back still remain unmatched, and will remain so until the day of judgement. 

Following are some links about the status of women in Islam.

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=BFpNkF - http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?h GuestID=BFpNkF

http://muslim-canada.org/statusbadawi.html - http://muslim-canada.org/statusbadawi.html

Hope this helps.

Peace

Bismillah,

"due to her more emotional nature"

Brother Peacemaker, I am glad you had such a good role model of a dad.  May Allah, SWT, increase your family and status so that you can guide your brothers-in-Islaam who don't have the understanding and dignity that you do.

Assalamu Alaikum Sister Herjihad:

Well, I am much more emotional than my husband. That doesn't mean that I am feeble-minded or lack intelligence and logic, it just means that things affect me on a more emotional level than they do my husband, and probably most men.

I am sorry to hear about your friend, it is always sad when men behave so badly. If she has gone to the Imam and explained her situation and they have done nothing, then she should go to another Imam. But, there is only so much they can do, no-one can force a man to be responsible or to follow Allah's laws.

Why does the Sister you know in this situation stay with her husband?

Assalamu Alaikum!

"Brother Peacemaker, I am glad you had such a good role model of a dad.  May Allah, SWT, increase your family and status so that you can guide your brothers-in-Islaam who don't have the understanding and dignity that you do."

Jazak Allah Khair sister herjihad. May Allah bless us all here and hereafter.

Peace

Bismillah,

There are women, like you Sister Mishmish, who are more emotional than their husbands, and there are women like me whose husbands are more emotional than them. 

The sister has actually achieved an Islaamic divorce after many years.  However, the Brother needs to spend his money on the kids and her as well instead of himself and his own selfish desires as he does.  People ask where to send their charity, and I would like them to send some to her and her children.

She is pretty busy homeschooling, working and caring for her kids and life generally.  Imam shopping isn't on her list.  She has gone to the local, large mosque, and they have misguided her and deserted her financially.  The Brothers need to take action with their brother in Islaam, but they are too shy or something.  Whatever.

Ameen, Brother Peacemaker.