Forgiven!
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Topic: Forgiven!
Posted By: honeto
Subject: Forgiven!
Date Posted: 20 October 2011 at 6:16am
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Many Christians believe that they are forgiven and they will go to Paradise without Judgment by God. They say that a ransom was paid with the blood of Jesus for their forgiveness.
How that makes sense to them? What about those Christians who do not practice their belief, rather do things that are against their teachings? What does 'forgiven' means to them?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Replies:
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 20 October 2011 at 7:11am
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honeto wrote: Many Christians believe that they are forgiven and they will go to Paradise without Judgment by God.
I don't know of any Christians who believe that, but if there are some, they are clearly wrong:
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Posted By: Jack Catholic
Date Posted: 20 October 2011 at 11:59am
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Dear Hasan,
We already discussed this on the string titled, "Did the Holy Bible Evolve?" I showed you where your understanding of Christian belief regarding forgiveness of sin was not really what Christians believe. Yet here you are in a new string makeing the same incorrect claims about what Christians believe. If you want to discuss Jesus and the forgiveness of sin, why don't you first learn what Christians actually believe before you attempt to discuss it again. Or are you just trying to create a fight? I think this forum is supposed to be designed for mutual understanding between faiths... Is that your motive for this post?
Allah bless you,
Jack Catholic
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 October 2011 at 3:45pm
well, that's what most seem to say here in the US, when I go to Mexico, they are a bit different and say they will be held accountable. Now, my next question to you will be, what is then this blood sacrifice is all about? of Jesus (pbuh)for ransom paid for sins?? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Reepicheep wrote:Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 24 October 2011 at 3:52pm
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honeto wrote: well, that's what most seem to say here in the US,
Really? That's what most American Christians believe???
If so, then you should have no trouble providing us with some examples. Please provide us with evidence which supports your claim.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 October 2011 at 3:48pm
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Reepicheep,
this is what I hear when preachers or people who preach Christianity approach me. The truth is that I have heard from Christians many different versions. So, I don't know what is their standard belief. Can you state what is your position on that matter and why? Doesn't your Bible state that too? 1 John 2:2 And he (Jesus and his blood sacrifice) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Forgiven, doesn't that what this verse means? I thought you knew that as a Christian? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 26 October 2011 at 8:16pm
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honeto wrote: this is what I hear when preachers or people who preach Christianity approach me...
Well, unless you can provide me with the names of some Christians who believe they won't be judged, or Christian denominations which have this non-judgement as part of their theology, or can give me some other evidence such as websites, books, or TV shows, then there's not much I can say about this topic. In fact, there is nothing I need to say, if you are unable to provide us with any concrete evidence that this is what some Christians believe.
honeto wrote: Can you state what is your position on that matter and why?
Easy. As I've already pointed out, the bible clearly states:
We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:10
I see no possible way for this verse to be misinterpreted. All people, both Christian and non-Christian, will one day appear before God for judgement. honeto wrote: 1 John 2:2 And he (Jesus and his blood sacrifice) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Forgiven, doesn't that what this verse means?
I thought you knew that as a Christian? Of course I'm familiar with this verse. It deals with atonement, not judgement. And, since this thread is about judgement and not atonement, that's a topic for another time.
Unless you can provide us with evidence of some sort which proves there are Christians who believe they won't be judged, I think this topic is about done. If you like, you can start up a new thread on atonement, since that seems to be a topic which confuses you.
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Posted By: Jack Catholic
Date Posted: 27 October 2011 at 7:14am
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Dear Reepicheep and Honeto,
That's what I said. Start a new topic. Hey, Hasan, I'm sorry if my last post on this string seemed a bit combative. I guess IslamisnotPeace is wearing me down just a little. But Reepicheep said it very nicely. Another string with an adjustment to the topic would be a good idea. But, of course, it is up to you.
Allah bless you both,
Jack Catholic
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 October 2011 at 3:21pm
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So, what you make of those who say that the blood of Christ has paid for their sins?
I don't ask names and phone numbers of people who approach me when they are preaching, they are willing to share the word, but not share more than that, kind of like you who is on the forum to bring out your point of view and belief, but are unable to give even your name! Also, this verse oppose to what you have said, let us look: John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."?? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 29 October 2011 at 6:42am
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honeto wrote: So, what you make of those who say that the blood of Christ has paid for their sins?
I agree with them, as does the bible.
honeto wrote: I don't ask names and phone numbers of people who approach me when they are preaching... Well, the next time this happens to you, it will be easy enough to prove them wrong. Simply quote 2 Cor 5:10 to them and let us know how they respond.
hasan wrote: Also, this verse oppose to what you have said, let us look: John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."?? The English word "judgement" has many definitions. One of them is "a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence." That is how the word is being used in John 5:24
The NIV translation of the bible makes this more clear:
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believe him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 31 October 2011 at 9:55am
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Reepicheep,
yes, we all have our own definitions of things, but there are some standards and each one is free to follow them or not depending on our position and what favors our point of view, but here is what an Engish definition is of "judgment".
Hasan
judg�ment[juhj-muh nt] noun
1.
an act or instance of judging. 2.
the ability to judge, make a http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/decision - decision , or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, especially in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sound - sound judgment. 3.
the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire. 4.
the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence. 5.
the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment. ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 31 October 2011 at 10:15am
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honeto, why did you stop at defintion five? In particular, if we go to your source and look at definition 7, we find: 7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin. I'm curious to know why you think your definition of "judgement" is better than mine. What logical basis do you use to pick your definition?
In any case, you will notice that the NIV translation doesn't even use the word judgement, so your argument is moot.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 November 2011 at 11:30am
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Reepicheep,
because there was no 6 or 7. Let me just post the link as it is so you can see for yourself, there is no 6 or 7 there: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/judgment Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 November 2011 at 11:48am
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Reepicheep,
your argument is not strong because the second part of the verse actually put the "Judgment" idea in practice: " but hath passed out of death into life." meaning there will be no accountability or judgement for those. Also Christian Bibles are always evolving, changing words and understanding. Even though you are right that KJV does not use the word judgment the second part of the verse says it as I mentioned above. It is interesting however that most of the other Bibles actually use the word "judgement". Here is an example: John 5:24 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 24Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life. John 5:24 Darby Translation (DARBY) 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal, and does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life. John 5:24 American Standard Version (ASV) 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. John 5:24 English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK) 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24 New Century Version (NCV) 24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears what I say and believes in the One who sent me has eternal life. That person will not be judged guilty but has already left death and entered life. John 5:24 Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE) 24`I tell you the truth. The person who hears what I say and believes in him that sent me will live for ever. He will not be judged. He has already passed from death to life. John 5:24 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) Life and Judgment 24 " I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life. So dear, the word "judgment" is present and so is the issue that I bring in most of the Bibles out there. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 November 2011 at 12:12pm
Jack, this is not an incorrect claim rather rather real and vast. Different Christian groups and people may answer it differently. I have heard from many people many different versions of it, as I mentioned above. I would like to know your take on it. How do you believe about Jesus paying for your sins with his blood? Do you believe you are forgiven because of his blood? will you not go through judgment as the Bible states? Those are some valid questions for you to answer Mr. Jack. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 25 November 2011 at 4:29am
Look again. If necessary, click on the "EXPAND" button immediately below definition 5.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 November 2011 at 3:44pm
[/Quote] Thanks Reepicheep, in that case still your belief is opposed in this verse: American Standard Version (ASV) 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 01 December 2011 at 8:06am
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Honeto wrote: in that case still your belief is opposed in this verse:
You are repeating a claim which you made on October 28 within this thread. So, I'll repeat my reply which I made on October 29:
**** REPEAT OF OCTOBER 29 POST ****
The English word "judgement" has many definitions. One of them is "a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence." That is how the word is being used in John 5:24
The NIV translation of the bible makes this more clear:
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believe him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24
**** END OF REPOST ****
Your response last time was that I was making up definitions for judgement, and you used a partial "cut and paste" from a dictionary website to "prove" that my definition was invalid. It took us a month, but you now seem to concede that "a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence" is a valid definition of "judgement". Correct?
I stand behind my earlier reply. Your earlier explanation that I was making up definitions for words is clearly wrong. Do you have any other comments you wish to make about my earlier post?
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 December 2011 at 2:51pm
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Reepicheep,
you are right on my overlooking 'judgement' definitions and I thank you for correcting me on that.
However, I do not see how it changes answer to my question regarding John 5:24 "....but has passed from death into life" while you say you believe in Judgment after death. Can you explain your position?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 07 December 2011 at 8:13am
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I don't understand the specific problem you are having with this verse. But, if you were to ask me what I think will happen to me on the day of judgement, here is what I would reply:
On the day of judgement every person who has ever lived (including Christians) will stand before God for judgement. According to the bible, I won't be alone, though. The Holy Spirit will act as my lawyer (advocate).
I don't know for certain, of course, but I believe that my lawyer will tell me to plead guilty of breaking the law. This is because I am a sinner and I am guilty of breaking God's law. I will probably even be found guilty of breaking the law. But, using an earthly analogy, I believe that even though I am guilty, I will be pardoned by God, because Jesus has already paid the penalty on my behalf.
Luckily for me, I won't be standing before God by myself. I will have the Holy Spirit as my lawyer, and I will of course follow his advice. Alas, non Christians won't have this court appointed lawyer, and will be forced to defend themselves.
(Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure what will happen to me on the day of judgement, but based upon what it says in the bible and using earthly analogies, the above is my best guess.)
http://woodburnmc.org/blog.php?a=have-a-good-lawyer - http://woodburnmc.org/blog.php?a=have-a-good-lawyer
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 December 2011 at 6:46pm
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Reepicheep, thanks for clarifying your understanding regarding this serious matter. It is true that what really will happen on the Day of judgment only God Almighty knows.
I will briefly go over what I as a Muslim believe about Judgment Day.
Islamic belief is simple, you believe in Oneness of God, submit to God and obey to His commands and live by them. If any could do just that, on the Day of Judgment God will forgive them their mistakes and admit to the Garden, to the Paradise.
There is only one sin that I know of that God has clearly stated in the Quran, and I know in the Bible as well, that does not have forgiveness. And that sin is the sin of 'Shirk', worshipping someone or something other than God or beside God as God.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 December 2011 at 12:21pm
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honeto wrote: There is only one sin that I know of that God has clearly stated in the Quran, and I know in the Bible as well, that does not have forgiveness. And that sin is the sin of 'Shirk'
Q1: I believe you are mistaken RE: the bible and shirk. Can you provide us with a passage from the bible where it states that shirk is an unforgivable sin?
Q2: honeto, at the start of this thread, you stated "many Christians believe that they are forgiven and they will go to Paradise without Judgment by God." Are all Christians who believe this guilty of shirk since they are, in effect, elevating themselves to God's level by claiming they will bypass judgement?
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 December 2011 at 8:06pm
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Reepicheep, Ans to your Q-1: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12:31&version=NIV - - Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Ans to Q-2. To believe that one is going to Pradise is not Shirk, it is a very common assumption among many people to claim that they are going to Paradise for one reason or another (not just Christians say that). Shirk is when you worship anyone or anything other than or beside God. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |