Was Islam spread by the sword?
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Topic: Was Islam spread by the sword?
Posted By: Holly3278
Subject: Was Islam spread by the sword?
Date Posted: 17 February 2012 at 10:48pm
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Hey everyone. I wasn't sure what forum to put this in so I put it here. Moderators, feel free to move it if you need to. That said, I have heard that Islam was spread by the sword. Is this true? |
Replies:
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 February 2012 at 10:59am
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Hi Holly 3278
ITS one of the widely spread misconception about Islam that it has been spread by sword Islam comes from the word salaam which means peace. A religion of peace spread through sword ? It's not true You know sis, that muslims ruled over spain for about 800 years but islam was not spread thru sword. Later when christian crusaders invaded they killed most of the muslims. It/s quiet clear who use swords Am from India. It is said that muslim rulers ruled for more than 1000 years. Yet we muslims are in minority today. We are about 10-12 percent of the population. If islam was spread thru sword, those rulers would have used powers to get them converted. By the way, you know that even today there are many christians in Saudi Arabia , the land of last Prophet. iSLAM does n't approve forcing anyone to get convert, for Allah swt says in the Quran - There is no compulsion in the religion . Infact we are taught "Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." [Al-Qur�an 16:125] ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 February 2012 at 11:02am
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I ALSO HEARD sis that every year about 20,000 people are embracing Islam in USA.There was no sword used ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 19 February 2012 at 2:14am
Hi Holly! Its just a misconception that Islam was spread by the sword. Like Seekshidayath said, if Islam were really spread by the sword we wouldn't find non-muslims living in lands that were for centuries ruled by muslims. (Like India for example). There are Coptic-Christians living to this day in Egypt. Spain is a non-muslim majority, India mostly has Hindus. Did you know the Muslim armies reached the border of France too? Yet we find no accounts of forced conversions etc. The Jewish population in many middle-east countries survived thanks to Muslim rulers who gave them sanctuary during the crusades when even the Jews were targeted. You can even look this up on the internet itself (See: Ottoman Empire, Ottoman Empire & Jews, Ottoman Empire & Non-Muslims) ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Holly3278 wrote:Posted By: docbro
Date Posted: 19 February 2012 at 10:07am
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Welcome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52OpmjfA1wM http://aboutjihad.com/jihad/kill_them_wherever_you_find_them.php |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 February 2012 at 8:07am
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Of course. But so was Christianity in its pre-Enlightenment history. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Holly3278
Date Posted: 21 February 2012 at 2:06am
Was your thing in the 3rd paragraph where you commented about Christian crusaders in Spain an attack on Christianity? If so, I don't appreciate that. I am a Catholic Christian and just because you are on an Islamic forum doesn't give you a right to attack my religion. That said, as far as Christians in Saudi Arabia, if there truly are any Christians in Saudi Arabia then they are there illegally. Christianity is forbidden in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is a Muslim nation too and so this speaks as to just how highly the Muslims of Saudi Arabia value religious freedom which apparently they don't value it very much which is very sad.  |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 22 February 2012 at 2:02pm
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Dear Matt Browne.
Assalamu alaika. Good morning/evening all of you! How can an ideology that meets one with peace be upon you be spread by the sword? Rather it is Greek concept of Christianity bearing in mind the 'cross'. friendship |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 22 February 2012 at 11:23pm
Hi Holly, I'm sorry that you feel your religion is being attacked. As Muslims, we are forbidden by God to insult other religions. Crusades and all that happened during is a historic fact - mentioning the Crusades doesn't mean we are attacking Christianity. I assure you that most muslims (including Seekshidayath) do not blame Christians or their religion for the actions of a few in the past.
May I add that Saudia Arabia is just one of the many muslim countries in the world, and they (the Saudi govt or people) don't necessarily represent Islam or all muslims in everything. Also, there are Christians living in Saudia Arabia - legally. They work there as expatriots and are living comfortable lives. Infact the USA has many bases in the Saudia Arabia too. (I'm assuming they are non-muslims too). Christanity is not forbidden in Saudia Arabia, however proselytizing Christianity is. It is a conservative country yes, it has its own rules, yes. As do many countries & cities all over the world. Feel free to comment and/or ask questions! See you around :) ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 23 February 2012 at 1:34am
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Hello Holly. I just wanted to inform you that I am thinking about moving to Saudi in 8 months for two years for work. In the past month and a half, I have met maybe close to 8 american christians who lived in Saudi for like 2-8 years. And they all said that they loved it too. I did ask some of them how they were treated as Christians and catholics living in Saudi. And they told me that they did not have a problem at all, and they loved it there. I then asked them would they return if they could? And all of them said yes. But the only reason why they came back to the US was because their husbands were able to find more of a stable job here and plus they missed their families in the US.
I lived in Kenya for two years in 2001-2003. And the muslims and the christians respected each other. how? they lived peacefully together in the same village. Also too, they employed each other as well in their own businesses, and they attended school together, and befriended one another. And during the month of Ramadan, the chrisitians would celebrate with the muslims in many ways. If you travel and make friends with people from over the world, then you will see this type of treatment I mentioned above between the muslims and chrisitans occuring many times, and not just on rare occasions.
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Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 23 February 2012 at 8:09am
Just curious, what happens when a Muslim converts to Christianity? Do the other Muslims rejoice for that convert? What exactly is freedom or no compulsion? |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 24 February 2012 at 10:48pm
Freedom and ''no compulsion'' means that nobody is forced or compelled to become a Muslim. God says in the Quran: 'There is no compulsion in religion'. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."" [Quran, Chapter: Baqarah 2:257] Which is why when people say that "Islam was spread by the sword'" they have no idea what they are talking about. As for asking whether or not other Muslims rejoice if a Muslim decides to leave Islam... obviously if we Muslims believe that Islam is the truth, and we see somebody leave the folds of Islam it will sadden us. Just like practicing Christians would feel sad if they saw a fellow christian leave Christianity or go join a different sect. Its an understandable human reaction. I don't think Christians, Hindus, Jews or ANY religious community would rejoice if a member of their community decided to leave their religion. So why the focus on us Muslims only? ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 25 February 2012 at 8:22pm
Why focus on Islam? Main reason is that I have heard that if your son or daughter converts to Christianity, away from Islam, it not only saddens you, but dishonors your family. There are numerous cases where families kill their children who dishonor their family in this way. This doesn't sound like a religion that isn't based on freedom, but compulsion. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 February 2012 at 10:13am
Still doesn't answer the question, why focus on Islam? Have you not heard of Christians or Jews killing people with religious motives? If not, I can direct you to a lot of such instances. That wouldn't make for a very friendly thread though, so I'll desist. If Islam is not a religion based on freedom, then why do people still convert to it in large numbers? [Islam has surpassed Roman Catholicism as the world's largest religion, the Vatican newspaper said Sunday. Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343336,00.html#ixzz1nhX4xBt7 - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343336,00.html#ixzz1nhX4xBt7 ] I'll repeat, even practicing Temple/Church/Synagogue going conservative Parents of other religions will also feel 'dishonored' or sad if their child decides to fore go the religion of their ancestors. Its a human tendency. Such cases are not very common in muslim communities. Such conversions are a rarity, and even amongst these cases 'honor killings' taking place are an anomaly... not the norm. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 28 February 2012 at 6:50pm
In Muslim countries (Those countries controlled by Muslims), we find many things that are not peaceful or free. For example, as was mentioned, the idea of honor killings is not found because of Christian ideas, no where does Jesus or any Christian say to kill another because of honor or dishonor or any belief system. Rather, in Christianity we find freedom and loving even those who we disagree with. In Stark opposition to this intellectual freedom are many Muslim countries that it's against the law to say anything against Islam or Muhammed, and if one is found guilty of such a crime they are put to death. Now, to the outside world the claims to be free and "no compulsion" are laughable. Because everyone knows that if the governmental laws dictate what people can or cannot say about Islam and Muhammed, it's not freedom we are talking about, it becomes obvious that Islam isn't about peace but control and submission. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 29 February 2012 at 7:48am
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Hughes,
Why do you run away from the Holy Bible??????. no where does Jesus or any Christian say to kill another because of honor or dishonor or any belief system. Rather, in Christianity we find freedom and loving even those who we disagree with. Here is what your religion says. APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate), neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him: "But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8, This is laughable. |
Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 29 February 2012 at 12:45pm
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Hi Hughes,
No offence but I find your observation kinda biased.
Well, who is to judge who is happy, free and peaceful? Depends how you define these terms. Are you happy? Is your country peaceful? And for Muslim countries, do you have a reference (apart from Hollywood movies)?
Neither does Qur'an or Prophet Muhammed (peace on him) say that. In fact prophet Muhammed (peace on him) was ridiculed and abused by many of his enemies in Mecca, but after the conquest of Mecca, rather than punish them, the prophet forgave everyone. While Jesus (peace on him) taught us to forgive and love even the enemies, Muhammed (peace on him) showed us practically.
There are peace loving Christians, who follow the teaching of Jesus (peace on him) in true essence. However you cannot deny the fact that there have been, (and are), many crazy-Christians throughout the ages who would hunt up jews, burn 'witches', attack 'heathens', enslave Africans and commit many evil in the name of Jesus (peace on him). Similarly we have crazy Muslims on our side who are using religion to grind their own axes. But Qur'an certainly doesn't teach evil, it is a guidance towards success and eternal peace.
We take our faith very seriously. We truly believe that Islam is the way to God, and refrain from making fun or joking about it. Not only Muhammed, we respect Jesus, Moses, Abraham, and all the prophets (peace on them) and a Muslim cannot make fun of either one of them. Even gods/goddess of other religion, we cannot make abuse, Qur'an has clearly forbidden us. However, a healthy criticism or questions on religion are always encouraged. Compare it with western world where Jesus (peace on him) is used as a curse word, in spoofs, as derogatory character in jokes and movies, etc. If by freedom you expect to mock or make fun and hurt sentiments of someone without a valid reason (other than entertainment) then Islam doesn't give permission.
If that were in anyway true then do you think Muslims would be keen to discuss religion and Islam here? Qur'an actually advises us to hold healthy discussion and answer questions raised in best possible manner. You are free to say what you feel about Islam in a logical way. Only thing it forbids is abusing anyone, just to hurt sentiments,,, well that is wrong. I find your knowledge about Islam is limited and you have basically stated what the usual 'norm' stereotypes is to be found in media these days. I would advise you to read the Qur'an to get first hand info into what we actually follow and believe. Also please go through this article for the truth of http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/09/honor-killings-the-epidemic-that-isnt/%20 - ' honor killing' ------------- "the mooslims! they're heeere!" LOONWATCH.COM |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 29 February 2012 at 9:28pm
While you may think that you've found something that disproves what I said, you didn't. Christians don't follow the Jewish Law, we follow Jesus. You can quote from the OT all day long, but what I stated was "no where does Jesus or any Christian say to kill another..." |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 29 February 2012 at 9:46pm
Notice I didn't state that there are crazy Muslims or crazy Christians who do crazy things. I stated, "no where does Jesus or any Christian say to kill another..." What does the Quran say about those who leave their faith? Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them" This is Peace? This is your guidance? And notice what your prophet said - Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'" So, your religion rewards killing apostates? Wow. And notice that even books on law quote your prophet: Averroes (d. 1198), the renowned philosopher and scholar of the natural sciences, who was also an important Maliki jurist, provided this typical Muslim legal opinion on the punishment for apostasy: "An apostate...is to be executed by agreement in the case of a man, because of the words of the Prophet, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]'...Asking the apostate to repent was stipulated as a condition...prior to his execution." So, here's the case, Jesus never once killed anyone, Muhammed killed many. Jesus never once instructed anyone to kill or harm anyone for not believing or leaving his religion. Muhammed did instruct his followers to kill those who "change their din [religion]", and even stated that those who kill will have a reward on the day of resurrection. And you still want to argue that Islam isn't spread by the sword? |
Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 02 March 2012 at 6:22am
Have you read Luke 19:27? What about First Corinthians 15:24,25? Micah 15:5? Matthew 10:34? All these are prophesy of what is going to happen when 'Prince of Peace' returns. As for Christians, their have been many who have claimed to be following Jesus (peace on him) and subsequently committed, and are committing, unimaginable atrocities. Do you deny that?
You have never read Qur'an, you went to an anti-Islamic site (thereligionofpeace.com), copy pasted certain verses out of context and pasted it here. The irony is these kind of sites are being operated by "honest Jesus following" Christians in many cases, and all they do is twist pick and chose verses and hadiths. If you think you'll gain true information of Islam from these kind of sites, be my guest and keep copy pasting.
Here, treat yourself http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/04/jesus-loves-his-enemies-and-then-kills-them-all/ - Jesus Loves then Kills his Enemies ------------- "the mooslims! they're heeere!" LOONWATCH.COM |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 March 2012 at 8:43am
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While you may think that you've found something that disproves what I said, you didn't. Christians don't follow the Jewish Law, we follow Jesus. You can quote from the OT all day long, but what I stated was "no where does Jesus or any Christian say to kill another..." 1. Christians don't follow the Jewish Law, we follow Jesus. My friend Jesus was a Jew and your Jesus preached the Torah which was a Jewish book.So if you follow Jesus you should have been a Jew.Jesus never heard the word Christian or Christianity. 2. You can quote from the OT all day long, but what I stated was "no where does Jesus or any Christian say to kill another..." I am sorry i did not know that you do not accept the OT.I do not blame you,but now i must tell you a passage from the NT let us see how you worm your way out of this one. Luke 19 KING JAMES VERSION. 27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. THIS IS THE WORDS OF YOUR GOD JESUS. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 02 March 2012 at 8:35pm
You think that quoting the prophecies of what God will do in the future is comparable to the three things I pointed out? 1) That the Quran states muslims should kill 2) That Muhammed killed 3) That Modern Islamic law references the prophet as justification for killing those who leave Islam. I noticed that you said nothing that refuted these three points that prove that Islam is indeed spread by the sword. Here's a little question. Why not just trust God? Why would Islam have to subject people to such coercion? Can't God handle punishing people without the help of Islam? |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 02 March 2012 at 8:48pm
Like I said, I follow Jesus. He preached the Kingdom of God. And as for your NT quote, let's look at that. Luke 19:26 �He replied, �I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them�bring them here and kill them in front of me.�� This is the end of the parable of the Ten Minas, it starts: "11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: �A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. �Put this money to work,� he said, �until I come back.�" Notice that the parable is about the judgement at the end, by God. God is the King. God is the judge. God will judge those who hate him. You disagree with this? Notice also, that the followers of God are the ones that are given rewards, the ones that hate God, are judged. But, it's not the followers of God who do the judging, or pronouncing of judgment, it's God himself. We trust that God is fully capable to judge the matter. Now, juxtapose that with Muhammed, he had to take matters into his own hand or sword as it were, he obviously could not leave the matter to God. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 03 March 2012 at 1:10am
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Hughes: Unless you are planning on converting to Islam, and then leaving it... why are you so worried about Apostasy Laws in Islam? Fact remains, conversion rates into Islam are increasing - despite the bad rep Islam is receiving from hate-sites and hateful people. If your 'fears' had a basis, Islamic conversions would have been on a decline. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 03 March 2012 at 12:05pm
It is an interesting argument, however it is a different subject. How is Islam spread? Conversion rates into Islam are increasing. The question isn't are the rates increasing or not, the question is how is Islam spread? And are people threatened with their life if they want to leave? |
Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 04 March 2012 at 9:55pm
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Salaam,
We should read history fairly.
Islam didn't spread by sword then or now, in Indonesia one of the most populous Muslim in there was no record of spreading Islam by sword. Before Islam came, Buddhism and Hinduism were the main religion there.
And the other hand Christianity brought to Indonesia, Latin America, Africa, Australia and other colonized country by gun (read: occupation). Nobody can denied that in the occupied land horrible story were daily stories. And in every colonized land, the controllers were the Christiano immigrant. The Christian occupier were prosper and the local were suffer.
In the case of Islam spreading, the controller were stay local, they converted to Islam. The local prosper and the immigrant assimilate with the local. Seer in Andalusia, India, Indonesia, Baghdad etc.
If you could tell me in which country Christian not via occupation in asia, latin america and africa. That's why we know of 3G terms during the colonization era:
Glory - occupation Gold- take advantage of resources so they can earn God- to spread Christianity. ------------- Salam/Peace, Semar "We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) "1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air" |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 March 2012 at 2:35am
Ok, so tell me how is Islam being spread today in 2012? How was it spread in the past 10 years? Which wars took place in the past 10... 20...50...100 years that "helped"spread Islam? If Islam were dependent on force (the sword) for its propagation, it would have ceased to spread after the Caliphate was overthrown and Colonialism took over most of the Muslim world. Islam is not spreading because people are being forced to convert, it is spreading because it is a religion that makes sense to people and offers solutions to their spiritual and worldly problems. [and this is the same reason Islam spread in the past]. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 05 March 2012 at 1:24pm
You did the same, pointing to an end of time prophecy of war between Jews and Muslim from Hadith. That was fine by you, I guess? My question, why be so hypocrite...Do you think that after having accepted Jesus (peace on him) as your savior, you get a free ticket to twist facts (and thereby commit sin)?
In self Defensive wars, and Criminal who has murdered (and not been forgiven by victim family), who commits adultery, or spread corruption. If you have a issue with wars then may I ask why your christian state constantly attacked and fought war, and not just turn the other cheek as Jesus (peace on him) advised?
I answered your question, it was in the link. Since you copied pasted your query from an anti Islamic source, if you want I can paste the answer. But I doubt you will read it anyway,,if interested you can click on the link anytime you want. If you don't agree with the material in the link, then do post your query.
Modern day christian state bomb innocents, and has legalized gay marriage. But that is against the Bible. Doesn't matter what modern day Muslims do or don't do, Qur'an is pretty clear, Let there be no Compulsion in Religion.
And I noticed you came with pre-conceived notions, and rather than discuss with open mind, you just referred to anti Islamic sites and refuse to accept any new source. Just repeating a rhetoric and calling it proof does no one any good. Unfortunately, you still continue to carry the biases about Islam; as they say, you can't see light with your eyes closed. ------------- "the mooslims! they're heeere!" LOONWATCH.COM |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 06 March 2012 at 5:00pm
I have one question for you. Do you believe your prophet said, 'Slay those who change their din [religion]'? If so, what sort of self-defense is this supposed to be, since he only killed people for self-defense, or a crime, right? |
Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 07 March 2012 at 8:59am
All right Hughes, let me try again. Since you rely on anti Islamic sites for your knowledge, what you need to realize is that these sites often quotes out of context to butter there points. Pay attention and I will try to show how they do it, insha Allah. The Hadith in question is "�The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that there is no God but God and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: (1) In penalty for murder, (2) a married person who commits adultery and (3) the one who reverts from Islam (apostates) and leaves the community.� (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 12, Book ad-Diyat, Number 6878, p.209) You see that the above hadith clearly mentions "who leaves the community" to be killed, this basically mean a apostates who leaves Islam and joins enemy camp or high treason, (at that time the pagans of Mecca who were at war with Muslims) Based on this we can say a Muslim could be killed only for (1) murder, (2) adultery, and (3) apostasy combined with �leav[ing] the community. As for peaceful apostates, killing is NOT prescribed. To further my claim, here is another hadith: �The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshiped but God and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: (1) a married person who commits adultery; he is to be stoned and (2) a man who went out FIGHTING against God and His Messenger; he is to be killed or crucified or exiled from the land and (3) a man who murders another person; he is to be killed on account of it.� (Sunan Abu Dawud, Vol. 4, Number 4353, p. 126) Quran mentions something similar "�The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: this is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.� (Quran, 5:33) Notice how similar the above verse is to the Hadith mentioned in Sunan Abu Dawud (above). The Hadith mentions the one �who went out fighting against God and His Messenger� whilst the Quran says �those who wage war against God and His Apostle,� and the punishment for such is also the same in both: �killed or crucified or exiled from the land.� This proves that capital punishment is NOT meant for peaceful apostates, since hadith clearly mentions three kind of crimes for death penalty, and peaceful apostate who do not wage a war against Muslims would be fourth-not-found-in-Hadith kind! Here are the circumstances in which these hadiths originated. the Muslims of the city of Medina were under attack by the Quraish �idolaters� of Mecca (which at that time was predominantly non-Muslim). Many of the Muslims in Medina were emigrants from Mecca, who had converted to Islam. Do you see now why religion and national identity was fused at the hip back then? If you were a Meccan who converted from paganism to Islam, you�d be persecuted or even killed by your former co-religionists. So those who converted to Islam would �leave the community� of Mecca to join Medina. The Meccans reacted harshly to this new religion of Islam and desired to wipe it off the map. They gathered armies and marched towards the fledgling Islamic city-state. Naturally, since the converts to Islam came from pagan families, such battles between Mecca and Medina would result in brother being pitted against brother, and father against son. Some of the newly converted Muslims naturally felt uncomfortable having to fight their families, and therefore would apostatize to the side of the idolatrous Meccans. Others were simply weak in faith and felt overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the invaders, so they defected to the pagan army. More insidiously, there were some in Medina who conspired with the people of Mecca to betray the Muslims in battle. They hatched a plan that they would �convert� to Islam to join the forces of Medina, only to apostatize and abandon the Muslims in the thick of things, in order to destroy the morale of the Muslim army. The Quran says of this: �A section of the People of the Book say: �Believe in the morning what is revealed to those who believe, and reject it at the end of the day, perchance they may themselves turn back.� (Quran, 3:72) It was in this particular situation that the Hadiths about killing �apostates� who �leave the community� and �wage war against God and His Messenger� were said. �Leaving the community� is a reference to leaving the community of Medina to join the invaders. Therefore, they reason, it was not merely �peaceful apostasy� which is to be punished, but rather high treason, i.e. trying to destroy the Islamic state�s army. It was a specific plot of the unbelievers to convert to Islam in order to mass apostatize and defect to the pagan side to destroy the Muslims. One can see then how apostasy and defection are linked; back then, there was a pagan army and a Muslim army. If you were pagan, you fought for the pagan army. If you were Muslim, you fought for the Muslim army. If you converted from one to the other, then you�d likely abandon one army and defect to the other. Hence the phrase �the one who reverts from Islam (apostates) and leaves the community.� But Hadiths are secondary source of Information for Muslims. We believe literally the laws in Qur'an, let us see what Qur'an has to say about apostasy: The Quran declares emphatically: �Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth is distinct from error!� (Quran, 2:256) Tafsir al-Jalalayn, a classical Islamic text, says of this verse: �This was revealed concerning the Ansar who tried to compel their sons to enter into Islam.� Some of their children were Jewish, and the parents wished to force them to become Muslims. In Al-Suyuti�s classical text Asbab al-Nuzul (Reasons for Revelation), it also says that there was a Muslim father by the name of Husayn bin Salim bin Awf who had two daughters both of whom were Christians. After failing to convince them to convert to Islam of their own free will, he went to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and requested permission to compel them into Islam. It was for this that the verse �Let there be no compulsion in religion� was revealed, to forbid parents from forcibly converting their children to Islam. �And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?� (Quran, 10:99) �And had God willed, He could have made you all one [religious] community, but He sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. But you shall certainly be called to account for what you (yourself) used to do [i.e. not what others used to do].� (Quran, 16:93) �The Truth is from your Lord; so let him who please believe and let him who please disbelieve.� (Quran, 18:29) �Exhort them to believe; your task is only to exhort. You cannot compel them to believe.� (Quran, 88:21-22) �Those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the Way.� (Quran, 4:137) This verse is evident that there can be NO punishment for apostasy, since the verse is clearly acknowledging those who believe, then disbelieved and again believe (contrary to your thinking that apostates would have been put to death in the first place !) I hope the argument clearly proves that the punishment of apostates is not death in Islam. you can check this link for more info: http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/ - Fathima Bary Needs To Read Her Bible Now care to explain: Deuteronomy 13:6-10 and 2 Chronicles 15:13 ? ------------- "the mooslims! they're heeere!" LOONWATCH.COM |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 07 March 2012 at 10:50am
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I asked a simple question. Did your prophet say those words or not?
Your answer was to attempt to put into context for him saying those words (I'm thinking that's what you were doing). However, I wouldn't even have asked that question if we didn't have examples of "apostates" today, being put to death or sentenced for death simply for changing their religion. These apostates haven't done anything wrong, as per your example, in a war or trying to hurt Islam. All they did was leave Islam. Islam isn't threatened if these people are simply allowed to leave, are they? The Islamic states that are putting these people to death use your prophets statements in their books of Law. So maybe you should explain to them that they are taking him out of context. Until then it remains clear that Islam is spread by the use of force. What does Deuteronomy 13:6-10 and 2 Chronicles 15:13, have to do with Islam being spread by the sword? |
Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 08 March 2012 at 10:23pm
No, it is a practical impossibility for Islam to have high conversion rates among even non-muslim countries in this day and age if it is spread over fear or force. I don't really think that's all that hard to understand. Furthermore, if you have actually gathered stuff from an anti-Islamic source, then that's the problem. That's something which affects credibility, especially in the case of a cause like yours. Doing that means you already believed that Islam is being spread by force or fear, before you had even checked if that happened to be true. That is bias. Not something a non-biased person would do, he/she would verify from a neutral source before accusing. The Quran does not state to kill. What you probably have done is merely point out out-of-context verses, just as many do. What you need to do is to actually bother to conceive the context being highlighted. Just as you attempted to with the Bible verse a member had referred you to. |
Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 09 March 2012 at 12:39pm
I have got a gut feeling you are being intentionally funny. First of all, 'you' didn't ask anything, all you did was copy paste an argument from a known islamophobe site. When I have answered all your points, in detail, all you have done is repeat your question! What, are we going round in circles?
Are you for real ! Were you expecting me to answer in 'Yes/No' only? Period? Well you should have mentioned that, I never leave my answer without an explanation, leaves room for ambiguity.Anyway, I do apologize for wasting your precious time, hoping you may learn better than to trust any random statement from anti islamic sources..Sarcasm intended.
Again you are going back in circle. If you remember you started your discussion with honor killing. And I told you that there are some Muslim, who do wrong just as there are Christian who do wrong, but there maybe nothing in scripture to support them. So yes, if a Muslim country kills a peaceful apostate, who is not plotting against the country or spreading corruption, then they are doing wrong, since it is against Qur'an.
I live in India, here we have Shariah law for Muslims in some respect, but complete freedom of religion. So you want me to pack my bags, go to those country who are taking prophet's statement out of context and 'explain' them...seriously man, are you for real ?! We live in Earth, this planet has 200+ country, many of them ruled by greedy, capitalistic, and crazy leaders who for personal gratification are ready to kill fellow humans as well as sell their own states. Did I mention Majority of these Country has Christian brethren...how about you start a tour first?
Another great logic. What you are saying is that if Islamic States kills apostates then they are SPREADING Islam? How? Apostate are ex-Muslims already, if you kill them or not kill them, how does it affect the number of Muslims in anyway? Spread by force means forcing someone to convert, like what early Christian did to Jews, or what Spanish Inquisition did to Muslims and Jews, or what happened in Philippines.
A fair use of tu quoque, don't you agree? ------------- "the mooslims! they're heeere!" LOONWATCH.COM |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 10 March 2012 at 2:49am
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Well, Hughes obviously has made his mind up. In that case, we have done our job by explaining our beliefs to him... he can go on believing what he wants to. Dayem, JazakAllah Khair for your responses. I found them informative myself. I suggest that we not waste our time engaging him further on this issue. As if what he thinks or believes actually changes reality! I am all for engaging in discussions, but when someone (Hughes) says: "The Islamic states that are putting these people to death use your prophets statements in their books of Law. So maybe you should explain to them that they are taking him out of context. Until then it remains clear that Islam is spread by the use of force. " Then how else can we help him? ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 10 March 2012 at 9:03pm
The comparison to Christianity doesn't help your situation since Jesus never taught his followers to kill, which Muhammed did do. Now, if your region of the world doesn't have these "false" muslims (for lack of a better term), and the violence that goes with it, then I'm happy to hear that. However, what I have observed is the "true" muslims often get shouted down or worse, by these "false" muslims, which leads in the end, to a group led by force and violence. So, while you may argue that Islam isn't spread in your country by the sword now, it certainly was in the beginning by Muhammed. |
Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 5:48am
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THere is more to the parable in Luke 19:11-26. In the parable, it is about a king who is a hard man, and gives his servants money to use profitably while he is away. When he returns, two make him money but the third is afraid of the king and just hides the money. This angers the king and he takes the money away and gives it to another, saying he does not deserve it because he did not even put it in a bank for interest. Then the king says to bring those that did not want him as king to come and kill them in front of him. This is referring to the end times. If you read the book of Revelation, this occurs after everyone has had many opportunities to turn away from following the Antichrist. Finally Satan, the Antichrist and all those that follow them are thrown in to the pit of fire.
As for the money, we are all given "talents" to use for good. If we do not use them, God will not kill us for that. But we should use our gifts for good, not to make monetary profit. There are other parables saying this. (Ex: it is hard for the rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.) We all have one or more natural abilities to use for the betterment of all. Killing others goes against this. This is not a talent. Thou shall not kill. Jesus was againat it when Peter cut off the ear of the Roman soldier that was arresting him. Jesus healed the ear on the spot. Violence is not condoned but man will be man. God does not reward for killing others (take not suicide bombers).
As for Islam, we see today in Egypt and other places the push to remove the Christians. In Saudi Arabia, a cross is forbidden. In Iraq most of the Christians have left. In the Quran, the Christians must pay a fee to remain. Does this make any sense? And Jesus was a Jew. The Jews denied him, in spite of all he did (the many teachings and miracles) but it upset their desire for a king to come and kill their enemies. And they did not want to change their silly laws of doing works to get into heaven. And the Pharisees had too much power and did not want to lose it. We see all this behavior today time and time again. Denial of Jesus. Unfortunately the Muslims are doing the same thing, saying they honor Jesus but still denying him..
This is proof that God does not believe in settling things with violence. So terrorism and Jihad is not the answer. Mercy killings are a sin. No doubt about it. Only God can judge in spiritual matters. Muslims must embrace Christians and seek truth in open forum, and be aware that the Quran was written by man, not God. And it was not written by Muhammed. He could not write. Many people had inputs. People were interviewed about what Muhammed said. We know that people have different perceptions and memory. Ask someone what happened in an accident and you get many answers. At least the bible has multiple witnesses with their name. And there is more and more findings of old manuscripts that back it up.
The crusades were a different time. People are still battling over Jerusalem. Note that this is all Non-Christian fighting- Jews vs Muslims. If Muslims were peaceful, there would be no issue. Muslims are let in to France, Sweden, etc. What do they do? Institute Sharia law, go against local laws, start honor killing, violence, etc.
And the burning of the Qurans- is it worth killing others over? Today they are a dime a dozen. Printers create them cheaply. It is man made, printed paper. There is nothing holy about that. Replace it with another when damaged. Throw the old one away. Man should not worship the book itself. This is like worshiping an idle. Not pleasing to God. Common sense.... is not so common.
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Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 11:20am
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The comparison to Christianity doesn't help your situation since Jesus never taught his followers to kill Why do you Bible thumpers lie go and read your Bible. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:26-28 So, while you may argue that Islam isn't spread in your country by the sword now, it certainly was in the beginning by Muhammed. Prove it |
Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 4:11pm
Nothing personal...but you remind me of Niki, - she was my pet parrot. Apparently there is a big IQ gap...I give up.
If you want to discuss the political development of the Muslim and Christian world, past and present, start a new topic. Trust me, you will never be able to win the blame game. In the meantime, since you seem to have figured out the grand solution for Muslims (which is to throw away Qur'an and read Bible and become Christians  ) why don't you check this article for some different perspective http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/02/quran-burning-the-causes-of-the-protests-in-afghanistan/%20 - THE CAUSE OF PROTEST IN AFGANISTAN ------------- "the mooslims! they're heeere!" LOONWATCH.COM |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 1:03am
Actually Egypt is home to some of the oldest generations of Christians in the world. Egypt has a significant number of Coptic Christians that have been living there for centuries. They were never disturbed, moved or forcibly converted the past centuries that the Muslims ruled Egypt. They didn't even choose to fight against the Ottomans or Muslim Caliphate during the crusades... If they had faced any sort of problems, they would have migrated to other lands like the Armenians or Jews.
In the Vatican City, women cannot wear short shorts. In China, proselytizing Religions is monitored and controlled. You cannot bring Bibles or Qur'ans in large numbers to China. In France the cross is forbidden in schools, so is the Hijab and other religious symbols. In India you cannot slaughter cows publicly or sell meat in many restaurants. Why? Cultural sensitivity and local laws. However I don't think Christians are forbidden from owning crosses and practicing religion in S.Arabia. Public displays of crosses are probably forbidden. However apart from Saudia Arabia, no other muslim country has these laws.
Even after Operation Iraqi Freedom? ;) I don't blame 'em! Iraq is not a very safe place these days... even for muslims. Those who can emigrate, should! Muslims and non-muslims alike.
You mean pay taxes? Makes sense, yes. In a Shairah State - the Non-Muslims (incl. Christians) are exempted from serving in the Army, exempted from Islamic Restrictions that apply to Muslims only, and exempted from other forms of taxes that ONLY Muslims pay (such as Zakat, Fitra, etc). A non-Muslim can choose to not serve in the army of its Muslim government and instead pay a Jizya which ensures that the Muslim Army will protect that non-Muslim community from other armies. A clause that many muslims living in the West wished existed. (choosing not to fight certain wars).
Denying him in what way? We Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was a beloved Prophet of Allah/God. His mother was a woman of exceptional character. An entire chapter in the Quran is dedicated to his mother Mary, wherein Allah describes the pain and troubles she went through giving birth to him. We believe Jesus was a mortal man and He believed in One God. We also love Jesus so much that Muslim men are supposed to dress like Jesus (and all the other Prophets like him. Peace be on them all). Muslim men have beards like Jesus, wear loose clothes like Jesus and believe in one God like Him. Muslim Women dress like the Mother of Jesus, wear a Hijab/Veil and guard their chastity like Mary. How else do you reflect love and belief in a Prophet?
Terrorism is definitely not the answer, and is forbidden (haram) in Islam. Jihad is not terrorism. Jihad is self-defense. If Russia invades USA, USA has a right to defend its people. Similarly, if someone attacks a Muslim country/land - they have a right to defend themselves. In arabic it is called Jihad. Allah/God says in the Qur'an that killing a single soul is like killing all of mankind. It is forbidden. Unless of course it is done by the govt for valid reasons such as punishment for a heinous crime, or during warfare, or self-defense.
I agree. In fact this is what Allah/God says in the Qur'an: Qur'an 3:64-71 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran),
We believe the Qur'an is a Divine Revelation, untouched by man. If you believe the opposite, then tell us why you believe it to be so...
Really? Can you tell me who is responsible for modern-day wars? Is it Christians? Or Muslims? Who invaded Afghanistan and Iraq? Who is responsible for Drone attacks on a sovereign nation such as Pakistan? Is it Muslims or Christians? Also, who was it that attacked Palestine and initiated war. Was it Muslims? Or was it some Zionists (with the help of Christians) ?
How do Muslims go against local laws? Can you tell us please? If they break local laws, the government has a right to arrest them. There is no shariah law in France or Sweden or any non-muslim country whatsoever! Where are you getting all this information? Sounds really ridiculous. You should look these facts up or people may not take you very seriously. (Friendly advise)
I agree that just because a bunch of ignorant fools burnt Qur'ans because they were raised in an intolerant culture - does not mean that Muslims can go on a killing spree. The people responsible should be dealt with according to the law of the land and their country of origin should be asked to step in and resolve the issue. I agree that it is not worth the killings. However it IS a serious issue that needs to be addressed.
While I agree that the violence is not an answer to the above problem... it still is a problem that needs to be addressed. Try burning a Hindu book in front of a Hindu. Or try burning the Bibles in front of Christians... you will see angry reactions because you over-stepped a boundary that should never have been crossed. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |