Your thoughts on this quoted passage from an article I wrote.

Quote:

Salam Alaikoam

Though some people want to say that religion is locked up in books and laws it is not.  Religions is always evolving and progressing.  Well most of the time.

Whether we take the Quran, the Hadeath, The Bible, The Torah or any other Religious texts these can and will all be rewritten and hopefully updated to reflect our knowledge of better ways to deal with particualr cultural or social issues we are faced with at the time and hopefully focused on a better future for all not just some of the people.

So it is not disrespectful to say that some Religious texts need to be revised with updated laws that abide by the Human Rights Act which can only be a docuement from God, Allah, The Creator or what ever life force you recgonize.

Remembering that education and counseling must go along with the updated Religious texts so all the people can learn to be better people.

For this we require education and training teams in teaching Healthy Boundaries, Good Communication Skills, Good Conflict Resolution Skills, Parenting Skills as well as education in sexual health isses like the stages and levels of sexual frustration and other frustrations and what to do when these happen.

Along with this there must be greater more affordable access to training and education as well as access to community resources like counseling centers, parenting centers, support groups and other resources that help create happier healtheir people.

Another area that people need encouragement with is living healthy productive lives and keeping fit.  This can be encouraged by making more things in the community affordable, like sporting activities and if people become nicer people, people will have more courage to go for more walks and be active as there would hopefully be less crime.

If these training and education activities were done then there would probably be less crime as more people would have the self esteem to manage their issues better and also maybe more people would realize that sharing more of the resources amongst all of the people not just some of the people could reduce crime and medical illness.

All this will take a major Call to an Inter Faith Jihad (Jihad means struggle and the self is the first level of this struggle) calling all the People of all Nations to this effort and encouraging Team Spirit that might inspire people to become healthier and happier people in the end if successful saving the government and Nations Billions spent on Crime costs and medical costs which could be redirected towards things that are a lot more interesting and fun.

There is hope and it begins with each of us.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

I am working on my religion, Islam.

There are a number of laws that need to be changed and in fact education and training with prayer and living prayer as well as Hajj (Pilgrimage) made to all levels of our lives seeing where we need training and education or assistance and giving assistance to others on a journey to a place of no sorrow in other words Heaven within and within the World must be the first justice.

Laws that do not abide by the Human Rights act should not be used.

Laws that cut peoples hands or heads of should be cut out from the religion and society.

As well as the laws that tell people to hang or stone other people or injure them in any way.

Muslims are suppose to Fear Allah not other Human Beings and we are to be as merciful as Allah doing anything less does not do justice to the wonderful spirit he gave us.

Islam means to submit to the will of Allah and we are all in this process to degrees and therefor we are all Muslims and each of us is given freedom to choose our religious or none religious path as we like and Allah has created many paths for us to choose from.

So regardless of who you look at in a run of a day these are all Muslim brothers and sisters working on being better people hopefully as this is the right path.

Anne Marie

Sister you are talking without knowing the rituals of islam...i can't find what to say...there are so many examples like you in the time after the last prophet under the name  khalifah of Hz.Abu Bakir(r.a.) and Hz.Omer(r.a.)...sister please first work on the fundamentals of islam...leave the rest...then you will understand the rest...i swear on the name of Allah that you are not doing an good thing...i don't want to scare you...you are in my prayers....

Sister please work on that article and see how can a person astray from Allah with using the name of Islam...an interesting example for you...sometimes evil comes from the right!!!(with the name of islam effecting the thoughts on ayats,misunderstandings)...

The Third Statement of Maulana Syed Abul A'la Maududi in the Court of Enquiry, Pakistan Regarding the Qadiani (Ahmadiyya) Cult

[From the Book: The Qadiani Problem, by Syed Abu A'la Maududi]

(Various stages through which the Movement launched by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad passed; various claims put forth by Mirza during these stages; and the impact of these claims on the Qadiani beliefs and conducts).

In the year 1880, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appeared among the Muslims as a preacher and champion of Islam. Before we describe various beliefs and ideas propounded by the Mirza during the various periods of his life from 1880 to the year of his death (26 May, 1908), it is necessary to arrange these periods in chronological order, so that the beliefs and ideas relating to one period may be easily distinguished from those of the other period.

Chronological Order

1. From 1880 to 1888 - In this period, the Mirza was a preacher of Islam and a champion of the Faith who defended the religion of Islam from the attacks of non-Muslims. Mirza insisted that his beliefs in regard to all matters were the same as the beliefs held by the general body of the Muslims.  Although the Muslims were startled even then by various claims latent in his writings, yet the Mirza always managed to pacify the Muslim sentiment by offering various interpretations for his claims.
   
2. In December, 1888 A.D., he published an advertisement inviting people to render allegiance to him. In 1889 A.D., he started receiving oaths of allegiance. At that time, he claimed himself to be only a 'Mujaddid-i-Waqt' (Renovator of the Age) and one 'Appointed by God'.  He set up a comparison between himself and Masih (peace be upon him) on the ground that as Masih lived in poverty and humility, so was the Mirza carrying out his task in a state of destitution.  In those days, the Muslims thought of the Mirza in favorable terms.  However, they felt uneasy about the Mirza's claim that he was superior to all the venerable saints of Islam.  
   (Seerat-ul-Mehdi by Sahibzada Bashir Ahmad Part I, Pages 14, 31,8; Tabligh-i-Risalat, Volume I, Pages 11, 12, 15).
   
3. In 1891, Mirza pronounced that Masih (peace be upon him) was dead, and he put forth his own claim to be the Promised Messiah and the Promised Mehdi. This caused great unrest among the Muslims. (Serrat-ul-Mehdi, Page 31 and 89).  In the early part of this period, Mirza wrote: "For about twelve years, which is a long period of time, I remained completely unaware that God had appointed me the Promised Messiah in the Burahin (i.e. Burahin-i-Ahmadiya) with great emphasis.  I had adhered to the traditional belief in the second coming of Christ (peace be upon him).  After the passage of twelve years, the time came for the truth to be revealed to me.  A continuous chain of revelations descended on me proclaiming that I was the Promised Messiah." (Ijaz-i-Ahmadi, Appendix to Nazul-i-Masih, Page 7).  Mirza wrote in another place: "Although in the Burahin-i-Ahmadiya, God has name me 'Isa and had affirmed that He and His Apostle (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had foretold my advent, yet since a group of Muslims held steadfast to the belief which I also shared with them that Hadrat 'Isa (peace be upon him) would descend from heaven, so I did not wish to contradict the obvious meaning of the Quran and the Hadith.  I gave a different interpretation to this revelation and continued to share the belief held by the general body of the Muslims and published it in Burahin-i-Ahmadiya.  Subsequently, however, revelations descended on me like a torrent proclaiming that I was the Messiah whose advent had been promised"
   (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Page 149).
   
4. In 1900, some leading disciples of the Mirza started proclaiming him a prophet in unambiguous terms. They raised him to that status which according to the Holy Quran, is reserved only for the Prophets (peace be upon them).  Sometimes, Mirza affirmed their statements; at other times, he would interpret these statements by calling himself an incomplete prophet, a partial prophet, or an innovator merely to win over those who showed some hesitation in reposing their faith in his claim to prophethood.  During the same period, Maulvi `Abdul Karim, a leading disciple of the Mirza, delivered a sermon to the Friday congregation on 7th August, 1900.  Mirza himself was present at that congregation.  In the course of his sermon, Maulvi `Abdul Karim exhorted the Ahmadis: "If you do not follow the lead of the Masih Mau`ud (Promised Messiah) in all matters and if you do not affirm in him even as the companions believed in the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), then you shall stand guilty of discriminating among God's Prophets just as the non-Ahmadis do".  At the conclusion of Friday Prayers, Mirza affirmed the above statement in the following words: "You have given a faithful description of my religion". (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Sahib-zada Bashir Ahmad, Page 167). Yet, in spite of this affirmation, Mirza abstained from putting forth in clear terms his claim to prophethood. According to Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad, the Mirza's creed in those days was that "He was partly superior to Hadrat Masih (peace be upon him) and that he claimed to be a kind of 'Prophet in part' and his prophethood was imperfect".
   (Al-Qaul-ul-Fasl, Page 24.  For a further detailed clarification please refer to Munkarin-i-Khilafat Ka Anjam by Jalal-ud-Din Shams, Page 19).
   
5. In 1901, Mirza, openly and unreservedly claimed himself to be a prophet and a messenger. He ceased qualifying his 'prophethood' with expressions like 'incomplete prophethood', 'prophet in part', or an 'innovator prophet' etc. in most of his writings. (Seerat-ul-Mehdi, part I, Page 31).  Jalal-ud-Din Shams, in his book, Munkarin-i-Khilafat Ka Anjam, explains: "In some of his writings before the year 1901, the venerable Hadrat (i.e., the Mirza) denied his prophethood and said that he was not a prophet but an innovator.  But, in his writings after the year 1901, he did not call his 'prophethood in part', nor did he style himself an 'Innovator'.  Instead, in his writings, he always referred to himself as a 'prophet' in positive terms" (Page 19).  In this same connection, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad [Mirza's son] states: "He effected a change in his creed in 1901. The year 1900 should be regarded as an interim period, which forms a boundary line like Barzakh (a barrier) between the two concepts...  Hence, it is certain that the reference, which date prior to 1901, in which he denied his prophethood, stand abrogated now and it is wrong to base any arguments on those references."
   (Haqiqat-ul-Nubuwwat, Page 121).
   
6. In the year 1904, among other claims, the Mirza also claimed himself to be Krishna. (Lecture by the Mirza delivered at Sialkot, November 2, 1904).  
   
   Let us trace through the above periods different statements of the Mirza and the policy adopted by his community with regard to matters of dispute between the Ahmadis and the Muslims. These statements and viewpoints of policy are grouped below under different headings: 

Khatm-i-Nubuwwat
(Finality of Prophethood)

1.  Basic Concept

Initially, Mirza believed in the concept of the Finality of Prophethood exactly as the Muslims do, i.e., the line of prophethood came to an end in Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and that no prophet shall come after him. Explaining this, in several of his works, he writes:

1. "Are you not aware that the Munificent and High Lord bestowed upon our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the name of 'Khatam-um-Nabiyyin' (the Last of the Prophets) without any exception, and our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) explained it clearly by the saying: 'No prophet will come after me', for the benefit of the skeptics.  If we permit the advent of a prophet after our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as lawful, it is tantamount to regarding as lawful the opening of the door to the office of the prophethood when once it has been closed by the Command of God.  And this, as is clearly believed by every Muslim, is certainly wrong. How can a prophet succeed our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), when the chain of revelation came to an end with his death and God sealed the line of the Prophets in him (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)?"
   (Hamamatul Bushara, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 34).
   
2. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had repeatedly observed that no prophet would come after him.  The tradition, 'No prophet will follow me', was so well-established that nobody ever doubted its authenticity.  The Holy Quran, in which every word is absolute and final, also affirmed in the verse.  "He is the Messenger of Allah and he is the Last of the Prophets", that prophethood has ended in our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
   (Kitab al Barria, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 184).
   
3. It is certain that no person can attain the office of prophethood after our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
   (Izala-i-Oham, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 577).
   
4. The Holy Quran does not permit as lawful the advent of any prophet, old or new, after the Last of the Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
   (Izala-i-Oham, Page 761).
   
5. Hence, what a bold audacity, recklessness and insolence it is to follow evil notions and willfully ignore the stark reality presented by the Quran and to accept the idea of the coming of a new prophet after the Last of the Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
   (Ayyam al-Sulh, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 146).
   
6. I believe in all those precepts which form part of the Muslim creed and in which the Sunni sect believes.  I accept all the tenets which are authenticated beyond doubt by the Quran and the Traditions.  I regard anyone who claims to be a prophet or a messenger after our Master and the Last of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as an impostor and infidel".
   (Proclamation issued by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, dated October 2, 1891 [the print in the book says 1861, but I think this is a typo], and reproduced in Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. II, Page 2).
   
7. Before this congregation of the Muslims present in this House of God (Jami' Masjid, Delhi), I declare without any reservation that I am a believer in the Finality of the Prophet hood of the Last of the Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and I regard anyone who refutes the Finality of Muhammad's Prophethood as a pagan and outside the pale of Islam.
   (Written statement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad which was read out in Jami' Masjid, Delhi, on October 23, 1891., reproduced in Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. II, Page 44).

2.  Explanation of Earlier Claims

In order to set at rest the suspicions which some of his writings had aroused in the minds of Muslims that he claimed to be a prophet or he was about to lay claim to prophethood, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad offered the following explanations:

1. "We also condemn the claimant to the prophethood with curses and we believe in the creed 'There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.' We believe in the Finality of the Prophethood of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). We do not profess to be the recipient of Prophetic revelations. We only acknowledge to receive revelations on behalf of and under the protection of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and the revelation which is transmitted to the friends of God who are faithful followers of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).  I do not lay claim to the status of Prophethood.  I only claim friendship with God and profess to be a Renovator".
   (Proclamation of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Reproduced in Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. VI, Page 302).
   
2. "This humble individual is neither a Prophet nor a Messenger, but only an inferior servant and follower of the innocent Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
   (An observation of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Reproduced in Qamar al-Mehdi, by Qamar-ud-Din Jhelumi, Page 58).
   
3. "It is true that in the Inspiration revealed to this person from God, this person has been frequently addressed as Prophet, Messenger, and Envoy.  But, these words have not been used in their real sense.  It is our conviction and belief that in the real sense of the word 'Prophet', no new or old Prophet will come after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).  But, it lies in the power of God to address an inspired person as a Prophet or a Messenger in the metaphorical sense".
   (Siraj-i-Munir, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, Page 302).
   
4. "For twenty years, this humble person has constantly received inspirations from God in which often the word 'Prophet' or 'Messenger' has been used for him.  But, the man who infers that this prophethood or ministry is real would be guilty of a grievous error...  These words which have been used with regard to my person in a metaphorical sense only create a schism in Islam and entail evil consequences.  Hence, the community should avoid the use of these words in common parlance."
   (Letter addressed by the Mirza to Akhbar al-Hukm, Qadian, dated August 17, 1899. Reproduced in Mashih Mau'ud and Hatm-i-Nubuwwat by Maulvi Muhammad Ali, M.A., Page 4).
   
5. I am not a prophet, but I am the bearer of a divine message from God (Innovator) and I am the One with whom God holds communion (Interlocutor)".
   (A'ina Kamalat-i-Islam, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 383).
   
6. "I have certainly laid no claim to prophethood nor have I said that I am a Prophet.  But, these people showed haste and erred in comprehending my saying...  I have conveyed to people nothing except what I have written in my books and that is that I am an Innovator (a bearer of a message) and God holds communion with me in the same manner as He does with Innovators".
   (Hamamatul Bushra, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 96).
   
7. "I am an Innovator, who among the Messengers is both the follower of a Prophet and an imperfect prophet himself".
   (Azala-i-Auham, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 569).
   
8. "In one sense, an Innovator (Muhaddith) is also a Prophet.  Though not a perfect prophet, he is, nevertheless, a prophet in part as he enjoys the privilege of holding direct communion with God. Things that are hidden from ordinary people are revealed to him, and just as the revelations transmitted to the Prophets are exempt from interference by the Devil, so are the inspirations revealed to him".
   (Tozih-i-Maram, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 18).
   
9. "This humble individual has never at any time claimed to be a Prophet or a Messenger in the real sense of the word.  It is no heresy to use a word in its metaphoric sense or to use it in speech in its lexicographic connotation.  But, I disapprove even of this lest it should cause misunderstanding among the general body of Muslims".
   (Anjam-i-Atham, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 27).
   
10. "So, this is only a question of semantics.  In other words, what you call a 'dialogue' or an 'address', by the command of the Almighty, I call the same phenomenon, when it occurs frequently, as prophethood.  Everybody has his own terminology to use".
    (Tamta Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 68).
    
11. "This humble individual wishes to bring to the notice of all Muslims that all the expressions used in my Risala Fateh al-Islam, Tauzeeh al-Maram and Azala-i-Auham, such as 'In one sense an Innovator is a Prophet' or 'To be an Innovator is to be a Prophet in part' or 'Muhadithiat' (Innovation) is a sort of imperfect Prophethood are not used in their real sense.  These have been used in their literal sense for the sake of simplicity.  Otherwise, in no way, do I lay claim to real Prophethood...  Therefore, I wish to make it clear to all Muslim brethren that if they are incensed over these words and if those words are shocking to their hearts, they should consider all the above expressions as amended and regard me only as an Innovator, because I would not in any cause schismatic strife among the Muslims.  At every point, in place of the word 'Prophet', please substitute the word 'Innovator' and consider the word 'Prophet' as deleted".  
    (Written statement read out at a Public Meeting, dated February 3, 1892. Reproduced in Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. II, Page 95).

3. Various Claims to Prophethood

Then, the Mirza laid claim to being a Prophet and this claim was not presented in a single form, but in many different forms on various occasions:

1. An 'Ummati' Prophet: "Later, the revelations from God descended on me like a torrent. This occurrence dislodged me from the present creed and the title of a Prophet was definitely conferred on me in such a way that on the one hand I was a Prophet and on the other a faithful follower of the Prophet, "
   (Haqiqatul Wahi, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 149).
   
2. A Prophet Without a Mandate: "All prophethoods save that which is authenticated by Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are abolished.  No Prophet bearing a mandate will come.  And none can become a Prophet without carrying a mandate, save the one who is already a faithful follower of the Prophet (Ummati).  Hence, on this basis, I am a faithful follower as well as a Prophet".
   (Tajalliyat-i-Ilahia, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 24).
   
3. A Prophet Bearing the Canonic Law: "Try to understand the real nature of 'Shariat' (The Canonic Law).  He, who is inspired by divine revelation, sets up a code of injunctions and prohibitions and gives a law to his followers, becomes a mandate-bearing Prophet... My mandate contains both injunctions and prohibitions...and if you think that a mandate invariably contains original commandments, this is a fallacy.  God affirms: ..., i.e., The teachings of the Quran are also contained in the Torah".
   (Arba'in, No. 4, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Pages 7-83).
   
4. A Shadow Prophet or Incarnation of Prophet: "Even as Real and Permanent Prophethoods are types of Prophethood, so the shadow or incarnate Prophethood represents another type.  The Promised Messiah's status as a Shadow Prophet does not dispossess him of his status as a Prophet; it represents merely a type of Prophethood... The Shadow Prophet enjoys the same privileges as are bestowed upon real and permanent Prophets, for the substance of Prophethood is one and the same".
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 118).
   
5. Incarnation of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): "On the authority of the Quranic verse...I am the incarnation of the same Last Prophet.  Twenty years ago, God addressed me in Burahin-i-Ahmadiya as Muhammad and Ahmad and created me an Incarnation of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
   ('Ek Ghalti Ka Izala--Clearing a Misunderstanding by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad).
   
6. A Composite Prophet Embracing All Prophets: "No Prophet came into this world whose name was not given to me.  In Burahin-i-Ahmadiya, God has affirmed me as Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Ishaque, Ya'qub, Isma'il, Moses, Dawud, 'Isa, son of Mary, and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).  I am the incarnation of all these Prophets".
   (Tatimmah Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 84).
   
7. Prophethood Ends in the Mirza: "In this Ummat, the distinction of being called a Prophet was bestowed upon me alone and all others are undeserving of this appellation."
   (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 391).
   
   "In no case can more than one Prophet be appointed from among the followers of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Hence, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) foretold the advent of one Prophet of God from among his followers and that Prophet is the Promised Messiah.  None save the Promised Messiah has been addressed as the prophet of God or the Messenger of God, nor did the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) prophesy the coming of anyone else.  On the other hand, he refuted the others by saying, 'No Prophet will follow me', and explained it clearly that 'no Prophet and no messenger will come after me save the Promised Messiah'.
   (Tashhiz-ul-Azhan, Vol. 9, No. 3, Pages 30-32).

Different Interpretations of the Finality of Prophethood

In order to provide grounds for their various claims, Mirza and his community gave numerous interpretations to their idea of the finality of Prophethood on different occasions, which are reproduced below:

First Interpretation

1. "If a follower, who receives divine messages and revelations and attains to the status of a Prophet on the basis of his faith in and obedience to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), is honored with the title of a Prophet, the seal of prophethood is not thereby violated, for this man is a follower.  However, the advent of a Prophet who is not a follower is a violation of the Finality of Prophethood".
   (Chashma-i-Masihi, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 41).
   
2. "The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the "Seal of the Prophets" in the sense that in the first place, all the accomplishments of prophethood have been concentrated in him and, secondly, no Messenger bearing a new mandate will come after him nor will follow any Prophet who is not a follower of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
   (Chashma-i-Ma'arifat, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Appendix, Page 9).

Second Interpretation

1. The Magnificent Lord appointed the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as the Seal of the Prophets.  In other words, the Lord bestowed upon him the Seal which was denied to the other Prophets in order to raise him to the highest order of excellence.  It is for this reason that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is called 'the Seal of the Prophets'.  Adherence to him blesses one with the excellence of Prophethood and his spiritual guidance does not carve out a Prophet.
   (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 96).
   
2. "In respect of 'the Seal of the Prophets', Hadrat Masih Mau'ud (the Promised Messiah) observed, The Seal of the Prophets' means that no Prophethood can be authenticated without his seal.  When the seal is affixed, the paper becomes authentic and is considered valid.  Similarly, the Prophethood which is not authenticated and confirmed by the Seal of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not genuine".
   (Malfuzat-i-Ahmadiya, by Muhammad Manzur Elahi, Part V, Page 290).

Third Interpretation

1. "Through His Wisdom and Bounty God so willed that for thirteen centuries after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Prophethood became extinct among his followers, so that the dignity of his Prophethood may be established (in other words, his Prophethood may not be sullied by the advent of successor Prophets just after him).  But, then in order to maintain the glory of Islam, certain persons were required who could be addressed as 'Prophets of God' after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and further God willed to complete resemblance with the series of the Prophets of yore (from the series of Moses).  So, God enjoined upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) towards the close of his life to utter the term 'Prophet of God' in reference to the Promised Messiah".
   (Statement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Published in Akhbar-ul-Hukm, Qadian, dated 7th April, 1903. Also produced in the pamphlet entitled 'Khatm-i-Nubuwwat by Fakhr-ud-Din Multani, Page 10).

Fourth Interpretation

1. "I am the shadow of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Hence, the Seal of Prophethood does not stand violated.  Muhammad's Prophethood is contained in Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him); in other words, none other than Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the Prophet.  As I am the incarnation of the Prophet and all excellent traits of Muhammad, including his Prophethood, have been reflected in the image of my shadow; how could I be regarded as a separate person claiming prophethood distinct from Prophethood of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
   (Ek Ghlti Ka Azala, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad).

Revelation

As in the case of 'Khatm-i-Nubawwat' ('Finality of Prophethood'), Mirza's position with regard to 'Revelation' and 'the visitations of the Archangel Gabriel' has been constantly shifting through various stages.  A survey of Mirza's changing outlook is given below:

Initial Position

1. "To believe in the advent of a new Prophet after our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is tantamount to believing in the doctrine that the door to the office of prophethood will open after having been closed; but this is certainly false, as is known to all Muslims.  How can a Prophet come after our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) when the chain of Revelations was completed at his death?"
   (Hamama-tul-Bushra, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 34).
   
2. "Even if it be supposed for once that the transmission of divine revelation is open and that Gabriel will convey but a single sentence from God to man, it would clearly negate the idea of the Finality of Prophethood.  If the Seal of Finality is broken and the transmission of divine messages opens, it makes no difference whether it is a single sentence or more thus transmitted...  After the demise of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Gabriel has been forbidden to convey Prophetic Revelations for all time to come."
   (Azala-i-Auham, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 577).
   
3. "The Holy Quran does not admit the advent of any Prophet, old or new, after the last of the Prophets.  A Prophet receives his knowledge of Divine Law through the agency of Gabriel, but the office of Gabriel is now defunct as far as the transmission of divine revelations is concerned.  And the advent of a prophet in the absence of divine revelations is impossible".
   (Azala-iAuham, Page 761)
   
4. "To be the recipient of Divine Law through revelations transmitted by Gabriel is a necessary attribute of the Messenger.  And it is now established that the series of Prophetic revelations has been closed till Doomsday."
   (Azala-i-Auham, Page 614).
   
5. "Hence how audacious, bold and insolent it is to pursue evil notions and willfully neglect the clear injunctions of the Quran and to admit the advent of a new Prophet after the last of the Prophets and to open the series of Prophetic revelations when God has closed it, for he who holds the dignity of a Prophet is also the recipient of Prophetic Revelation".
   (Ayyam-us-Sulh, Ghulam Ahmad, Page 146).

Second Position

1. "We also condemn the claimant to Prophethood with causes and believe in the creed, 'There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah'.  We believe in the Finality of Muhammad's Prophethood (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and we are convinced that one who is a follower of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) may, under the shadow the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) receive 'Revelation by inheritance' rather that 'Prophetic revelation'".
   (Proclamation published by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, vide Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. 6, Page 302).
   
2. "Is it necessary that one who claims to receive divine messages should also lay claim to Prophethood?"
   (Jang-i-Muqqadas, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 67).
   
3. "I am not a Prophet, but God has appointed me an Innovator and an Interlocutor".
   (Aina Kamalat-i-Islam, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 383).

Third Position

1. What an absurd and erroneous fallacy it is to believe that the series of divine revelations has been closed forever after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and there is no possibility that the chain of revelations will be resumed until Doomsday. Shall we worship mere legends?   Is such a religion worth the name in which direct communion with God is extinct?"
   (Appendix to Burahin-i-Ahmadiy, Part V, Page 183. It must be pointed out that part V of Burahin-i-Ahmadiya, came out in the year 1908).
   
2. Persian Verses: [Translation]
   "Whatever Wahi (revelation) I receive from God
        I swear I will know it to be free from mistakes;
   Just as I do with Quran, I will hold dear my Wahi
        It is my belief to know it is pure from errors;
   I swear by God this Word is great
        From the mouth of a Pure and Knowledgeable God."
   
3. "Just as I believe in the verses of the Holy Quran, in the same measure, without an iota of difference, I believe in the truth of the divine message which has been revealed to me in a constant chain of signs.  I can swear in the House of God (Baitullah) that the sacred revelations received by me have been transmitted by the same God who conveyed His Divine Word to Hadrat Moses, Hadrat 'Isa (peace be upon them) and hadrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
   (Ek Ghalti Ka Azala, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad).
   
4. "I believe in the truth of the divine Messages revealed to me in the same measure as I believe in the Torah, the Bible and the Holy Quran".
   (Arba'in, No. 4 by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 25).
   
5. Persian Sentences: [Translation]
   "Gabriel^(AS) came to me and chose me by pointing to me with his finger; and said that God will protect you from your enemies."

Christ (peace be upon him) and the Question of His Reappearance

In respect of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and his reappearance and Mirza's own claim to be the promised Messiah, the viewpoint of Mirza has been changing through different stages. An outline of his varying positions is given below:

First Position

1. "This humble person's claim to be an incarnation of the Promised Messiah, which some dimwitted people have misunderstood as 'the Promised Messiah' is not a novelty which people have heard from me only at the present time...  I have certainly not claimed to be Christ, son of Mary (peace be upon him).  The person who alleges that I have made such a claim is a disruptionist and a liar.  On the other hand, over a period of seven or eight years it has been constantly published in my behalf that I am an Incarnation of Christ".
   (Azala-i-Auham, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 190)
   
2. "It is possible, quite possible, that in some future age a Masih should appear who would appear true to all the apparent meanings of certain words contained in the Traditions".
   (Azala-i-Auham, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 199)
   
3. "It has been revealed to this humble person that this insignificant creature by virtue of his poverty, humility, reliance upon God, self-denial and signs and lights represents an image of Christ's earlier existence on this earth.  The nature of this humble person is akin to the nature of Christ (peace be upon him)".
   (Burahin-i-Ahmadiya, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 499).
   
4. "It has been revealed to the author that he is the Renovator of the Age and his spiritual excellence matches the spiritual excellence of Christ, son of Mary (peace be upon him)".
   (Proclamation by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, vide Tabligh-i-Risalat, Volume I, Page 15).
   
5. "If an objection is raised that an Incarnation of Christ must be a Prophet, for Christ (peace be upon him) was a Prophet of God, the answer, in the first place, is that our master and prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not set Prophethood as a necessary attribute of the Promised Messiah.  It is clearly recorded that the promised Messiah would be a Muslim and would follow the Shariat (the Canonic Law) like the other Muslims, and he will offer nothing more".
   (Tauzih al-Maram, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 19).

Second Position

1. "And this is 'Isa whose advent was awaited.  In the revealed texts, the names Mary and Christ have been used in reference to me.  It was said of me, "We will make him the Image", and further it was said, "This is Christ, son of Mary, whose advent was awaited". That which the people doubt is Right and this is the one who awaited and doubt arises from lack of perception".
   (Kishti-i-Noah, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 48).
   
2. "In the third part of Burahin-i-Ahmadiya, God addressed me as Mariam.  Then, as is evident from Burahin-i-Ahmadiya, I was reared in the image of Mariam for two years and continued to grow behind the veil...  Later, as was done in the case of Mary, I was filled with the sould of 'Isa and I was made pregnant in a metaphorical way.  At last, after a period of many months (which is not of more than ten months' duration), I was delivered from Mary in the form of 'Isa by a divine message which is contained at the end of Part IV of Burahin-i-Ahmadiya.  It is thus that I was created the sone of Mary and at the time when Burahin-i-Ahmadiya, was written, God did not reveal to me this hidden mystery".
   (Kishti-i-Noah, Page 46).
   
3. "Hence be convinced that he who has descended is the son of Mary.  He, like 'Isa, son of Mary, did not find a learned man, a spiritual father in his time who could become an agent for his spiritual birth. So, the Omnipotent HImself became his guardian and took him to His bosom and instructed him and name his servant 'the Son of Mary'...  Hence, in a metaphorical way, this is 'Isa, son of Mary, who was born without the agency of a father. Can you prove that he has any spiritual father?  Can you furnish a proof that he is included in any of your four series?  Hence, who else is he but the Son of Mary"?
   (Azala-i-Auham, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 659).
   
4. "We should know that the word 'Damascus', which appears in the Tradition of 'Muslim', or, in other words, as it is mentioned in the text of 'Sahih Muslim', which says that 'Hadrat Masih (peace be upon him) will descend near the white tower in the eastern part of Damascus has always been a puzzle to the research scholars [see note below]...  Be it know that God has revealed to me the interpretation of the word 'Damascus' in this way: in this place, Damascus is the name of a town where live people who possess traits like those of Yazid and follow the perverse habits and thoughts of Yazid...  God has conveyed to me through Revelation that since a majority of its residents possess traits like those of Yazid, this town of Qadian has some connection with and bears similarity to Damascus".
   (Hashia Azala-i-Auham, Page 63-73)
   [Note: It may be pointed out that no scholar before the time of Mirza was ever perplexed over the word 'Damascus'.   There is hardly any trace of amazement in the writing of all the exponents of the 'Science of Hadith'.   However, surely Mirza must have been sorely perplexed as to how he could establish himself as the Promised Messiah in the presence of this clear reference in the Traditions to a well know place.]
   
5. "I swear by God Who has appointed me, and only the accursed ones dispute over the actions of the Lord, that God has deputed me as the Promised Messiah".
   (Ek Ghalti Ka Azala, Tabligh-i-Risalat, Vol. 10, Page 18).

Qadiani Community Constitutes an 'Ummat'

Mirza himself clearly affirmed the principle that a Prophet creats an 'Ummat'.  He, then, proceeded on to call his community an 'Ummat'.  A few extracts from his writings given below to substantiate the point:

1. "The person who claims to be a Prophet will certainly affirm his Faith in the existence of God.  Furthermore, such a man will proclaim that he is the recipient of Divine Revelation... In addition to this, he will relate to the people the Word of God which has been revealed to him.  He will unite his followers to an 'Ummat' (body of the faithful) which believes in him as a Prophet and regards his book as the revealed Book of God".
   (Aina Kamalat-i-Islam, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 344).
   
2. "You should comprehend the real nature of 'Shariat'.  He who sets out a number of Injunctions and Prohibitions through Revelation received by him and establisheds a canon for his 'Ummat' becomes an Apostle bearing the Canonic Law (Shariat).  My revelations include both Injunctions and Prohibitions".
   (Arba'in, No. 4, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Pages 7-83).
   
3. "The former Masih was limited to being a Masih.  Hence, his 'Ummat' was led astray and the chain of Moses came to an end.  If I were also confined to being a Masih, the end would not have been dissimilar.  But, I have also been appointed a Mahdi and, in addition, I am an incarnation of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).  Hence my 'Ummat' will be divided into two sects.  Those who will succumb to the influence of Christianity shall be obliterated.  The other sect will enter the fold of Mahdwiat".
   (Statement by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, published in Al-Fazl, dated January 26, 1916).

Consequences of Refuting Mirza from the Standpoint of Belief

Initial Position

1. "This humble person has been deputed by God to act as a Muhaddith (one who renews or reinterprets the law) among this 'Ummat' (community of the faithful).  A Muhaddith (Innovator) is a Prophet in one sense.  Although his Prophethood is not perfect, yet he is a Prophet in part.  It is obligatory on the Muhaddith (Innovator), as it is obligatory on all Prophets that he should proclaim his credentials loudly and the person who denies the credentials of the Muhaddith (Innovator) is to some extend liable to punishement".
   (Tauzih-i-Maram, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 18).
   
2. "From the start, it has been my creed that no person can become an infidel or a Dajjal (Antichrist) on the grounds of refuting me.  Nonetheless, he will be the one led astray and deviated from the right path, and I do not call him faithless, devoid of religious faith". (Marginal Note) "It should be born in mind that only such Prophets as bring Shariat (the Canonic Law) and fresh mandate from God are vested with the privilege of denouncing their refuters as infidels. With the exception of the bearer of a divine mandate, the denier of all the Innovators and the Inspired Ones, however, exalted a position they may be holding in the favour of God and in spite of enjoying the privilege of holding communion with the Almighty, does not become a heretic".
   (Taryaq-ul-Qulub, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 130).
   
3. "Every Muslim to whom my message has been propagated, and who does not hold me as the final arbiter in all matters nor does he accept me as the Promised Messiah, nor does he believe in the divine origin of my revealed mandate, is liable to be held accountable in heaven irrespective of his being a Muslim".
   (Tuhfat-un-Nadwah, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 4).
   
4. "The person who refutes the Promised Messiah or is indeifferent to the necessity of believing in him is absolutely ignorant of the true spirit of Islam and he nature of Prophethood and the purpose of Divine Ministry.   Such a person does not deserve to be called a true Muslim and a true obedient servant of God and His Apostle...  'Transgressor' is the term for those who do not believe in the Promised Messiah and drift away from his creed".
   (Hujjatullah -- Address delivered in Lahore by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Reproduced here from An-Nubuwwata Fi Islam, by Maulvi Muhammad Ali, M.A., Page 214).

Final Position

1. "The person who does not follow thee does not pledge allegiance to thee and remains thy adversary is a denizen of Hell, for he disobeys God and His Apostle".
   (Proclamation Ma'yar al-Khyar, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, dated May, 25, 1900. Reproduced here from Kaltmat-ul-Fasl, by Sahibzada Bashir Ahmad, Page 129).
   
2. "Now when there is no doubt in the matter that salvation cannot be attained without affirming in the Promised Messiah, why are needless efforts he made to establish that the non-Ahmadis are Muslims?
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 129).
   
3. "Whenever Hadrat Mirza has addressed the non-Ahmadis as Muslims, he has done so because they profess to be Muslims.  Otherwise, the Mirza, by an express command of God, did not look upn his deniers as Muslims".
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 126).
   
4. (After making a reference to a writing of Mirza, the text proceeds as follows): "This writing of Hadrat Masih Mau'ud (the promised Messiah) provides answers to several questions.  In the first place, God conveyed to the Hadrat through inspiration that his denier was not a Muslim, and not only did God reveal this information, but also commanded the Hadrat to look upon his deniers as outside the pale of Islam.  Secondly, the Hadrat expelled 'Abdul hakim Khan from the community on the ground that he addressed the non-Adhmadis as Muslims. Thirdly, to hold the view that the deniers of the Promised Messiah are Muslims is adhering to an absurd belief. Fourthly, God's blessing is withheld from the person who adheres to the above belief".
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 125).
   
5. "Heresy is of two types.  Firstly, a person who refutes Islam and disbelieves in the Divine Ministry of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is a heretic, an infidel.  Secondly, for example, a person denies the Promised Messiah and in spite of the provision of proofs denounces him as an imposter...  When considered closely, both types form the single kind of Heresy".
   (Hadiqat-ul-Wahi, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Page 179).
   
6. "All those Muslims who have not pledged allegiance to Hadrat Masih Mau'ud, including even those who may not have heard his name, are infidels and outside the pale of Islam".
   (Aina-i-Sadaqat, by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad, Page 35).
   
7. "Every man who believes in Moses (peace be upon him), but refutes Christ (peace be upon him) or acknowledges Christ (peace be upon him), yet disbelieves in Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or believes in Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), but refutes the Promised Messiah, is not only a heretic, but a confirmed infidel and is outside the pale of Islam".
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 110).
   
8. "God sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) again in Qadian in order to fulfull His Promise".
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 110).
   
9. "So, the Promised Messiah himself is the Prophet of God who has appeared in the world a second time to carry out the Propagation of Islam".
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 155).
   
10. "Now, the matter is quite clear.   If the denial of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) entails heresy or infidelity, a denial of the Promised Messiah must also amount to heresy, for the Promised Messiah is not other than the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself; they are one and the same".
    (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 147).
    
11. "The person who takes up a neutral positon with regard to us is in reality our refuter, and he who does not affirm faith in us and yet speaks well of us is also our adversary".
    (Statement by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, published in the newspaper Badr, dated April 24, 1903. Reproduced from Munkarin-i-Khilafat Ka Anjam, Page 82).

Consequences of Refuting the Mirza from a Practical Point of View:

1. "Subsequently, Hadrat Masih Mau'ud clearly enjoined upon us: We should avoid all contacts with the non-Ahmadis in matters of bereavement and marriage.   How can we say their funeral prayers, when we do not share their grief?"
   (Al-Fazl, June 18, 1916).
   
2. "The venerable Mirza observes: It is not forbidden to take the daughter of a non-Ahmadi in marriage, for it is lawful to marry women from the people of the Book".
   (Al Fazl, December 16, 1920).
   
3. "It is notified for public information that to marry Ahmadi girls to non-Ahmadi men is unlawful.  Particular care should be taken in this regard in the future".
   (Notification by the Secreatry, Public Affairs, Qadian, published in Al-Fazl, February 14, 1933).
   
4. "Hadrat Mirza abstained from saying funeral prayers for his son (the late Mirza Fazal Ahmad) on the ground that he was a non-Ahmadi". (Al-Fazal, December 15, 1921).
   
5. "So, bear in mind, as God has revealed to me, it is unlawful, definitely unlawful, for you to say prayers behind a person who charges us with apostasy or one who refutes us or one who wavers. Your leader in prayer should be one of your own community".
   (Arba'in, No. 3, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad)."
   
6. "My belief is that it is unlawful to say funeral prayers for those who pray behind the non-Ahmadis, for in my view such people are outside the pale of Ahmadiyat.  Similarly, it is unlawful to say funeral prayers for those who give their daughters in marriage to the non-Ahmadis and die without offering repetance for this sin".
   (Letter of Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad, published in Al-Fazl, April 13, 1926).
   
7. "Hadrat Mau'ud has permitted only such dealings with the non-Ahmadis as were held lawful with regard to the Christians by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).  Our prayers were segregated from the prayers of the non-Ahmadis.  It was forbidden to marry our daughters to them. We were enjoined upon not to say their funeral prayers. What else is there that we can share with them?  There are two types of relationship--Religious and Worldly.   The principal link in religious relationship is joint worship and the chief means of worldly relationship is matrimony.  But, both of these relationships are forbidden to us.  If you ask, 'are we at liberty to take the daughters of the non-Ahmadis?"  My answer is, 'the daughters of the Christians are also permitted to us". And if you enquire, 'why do we extend salam to the non-Ahmadis'?  The answer is, 'it is established from the Tradition that on certain occasions the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) returned even the greetings of the Jews'.
   (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Page 159).

[We are very grateful to brother Hammad Ahmad Awan for having taken the time to reproduce the text of this Historic Statement in electronic format.  May Allah^(SWT) reward his service to Islam and Muslims.]

Statement of Maulana Syed Abu'l Ala Maududi

The Problem of Qadianism

Muslims scholars representing various Muslim organizations and parties from all parts of East and West Pakistan held a conference in Karachi to discuss government suggestions and recommendations for the new constitution presented to parliament. The meeting ended with many suggestions and reforms one of which was "... we demand that the government should consider all those who believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a religious leader a minority equal to many non-Muslim minorities in the country and give them one seat in Punjab's parliament".

Other suggestions were so reasonable and clear that enemies were unable to attack them, and when some invective writers did, their influence was null among the educated.

A great number of educated Pakistanis were not convinced that the suggestion which demanded the separation of Qadiyanis was reasonable and necessary. But here, I am going to explain quite clearly why all Muslim scholars agreed to stand by this suggestion.

Being an independent non-Muslim minority is a natural and reasonable result of all that Qadiyanis chose for themselves. They caused and urged everything that result in making them a non-Muslim community. The first of which is their fabrication of the meaning of "the Last of Allah's apostles", by which they differed from all Muslims who believe in Mohammad (peace be upon him) as the Last Apostle and that there will be no apostles after him until the day of judgment takes place. This is the meaning which the Apostle's companions understood and derived from the following verse "Mohammad in not the father of any of your men, but the Apostle of Allah and the Last Apostle" (Sura Al-Ahzab verse 40). The Apostle's companions fought all those who pretended being apostles after the death of Mohammad (peace be upon him). And this was the meaning which Muslims understood from all the sources, and thus they did not and do not accept any one who pretends to be an apostle.

Qadiyanis only, and for the first time in the history of Muslims, interpreted the Quranic phrase "The Last of the Apostles" (*Malfuzal Ahmadiya by M.Manzur Ilahi pp.290*) to mean that Mohammad is the Apostle's stamp which certifies and signs other Apostle's Messages. What we have said can be proven by the texts quoted here from Qadiyanis books and essays. Here are three quotations.

--"The promised Christ (peace be upon him) said in his interpretation of `Khatamu Nabiyeen': what is meant is that no Prophet's message can be authorized and certified except by Mohammad's stamp. As every document is not accepted unless affirmed or confirmed by stamp and signature, so every message that is not confirmed by Mohammad's stamp is not true. (Malfuzal Ahmadiya edited by M.Manzur Ilahi pp.290)

--"We do not deny that Mohammad (peace be upon him) was the seal of prophets, but what the majority of people understand contradicts the greatness of the prophet (peace be upon him) since it leads to the conviction that the prophet had bereft his nation from Allah's greatest favor - prophets. What is meant by this phrase is that the prophet is the seal which confirms messages after his, so there will be no prophet if not affirmed by the holy prophet Mohammad. In this meaning only we do believe". (Al-Fadl, 22 Sept 1939)

--"The seal is the stamp, and if the holy prophet is the stamp, how can he be a stamp and no prophets to be confirmed". (Al-Fadl, 22 Sept 1923)

The differences between all Muslim and Qadiyanis are not limited to the explanation or the fabrication of one word "Khatem", but differences went to extremes since Qadiyanism claimed openly and frankly that not only one prophet is likely to appear after Mohammad (peace be upon him) but thousands of prophets. This is to be found in Qadiyani texts, some of which are the following "The rise of many new prophets is as clear a fact as the sun in midday". (The Reality Of Qadiyanism by Mirza Bashir Mahmud pp.228)

--"Muslims falsely claim that the sources of Allah ran out and no more prophets will appear. They do not justly estimate God. As for me, I say that not only one prophet may appear but thousands". (Anwar Khilafat by Mirza Bashir Mahmud pp. 62)

--"If a man sharpened swords close by my neck threateningly asking me to say that no prophet will appear after Mohammad(peace be upon him) I would say to him, you are a liar, it is right, there must be prophets after him". (Ibid. pp.65)

After Ghulam Ahmad had opened the way of messages and prophets, he pretended he was a prophet. Qadiyanis believed his pretense and accepted it completely. We quote here some of their declarations and sayings to witness to their deviations and fabrications as well as can be.

--"The promised Christ declared his claim to a Message and to be a prophet, as he wrote `I am a prophet and an apostle' (Al-Badr 5 Mar 1908), or as he also wrote `I am a prophet according to Allah's orders. If I deny this I am sinful. And If Allah calls me thus how can I deny it. I will stand by this claim until my death' (Letter to Akhbar Am by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad written three days before his death and published on his date of death i.e., 26 May 1908).

--"The characteristics Islam gives of the promised Christ means that is truly a prophet". (The Reality Of The Message by Mirza Bashir pp.174)

An essential element in all the persons who pretend to be prophets is to charge those who do not believe in him with disbelief and refection of faith. This is exactly what Qadiyanis do in their congregational speeches and publications against Muslims who deny their pretense. I quote the following from their speeches:

--"All Muslims who do not swear fealty to Ghulam Ahmad are disbelievers, even if they have not heard his name". (Ayina Sadakat by Mirza Bashir Eddin pp. 35)

--"Every man who believes in Moses but not in Jesus Christ, in Mohammad but not in Ghulam Ahmad is not only a disbeliever, but in the deepest levels of rejection of faith". (Word Of Demarcation by Bashir Ahmad pp 110).

--"Since we believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet, and all non-Ahmadis disbelieve in him, we consider non-Ahmadis disbelievers according to the Quranic verse which says that in one prophet is a rejection of the whole prophets".(Mirza Bashir Ahmad's article in Al-Fadl, 26 May 1922).

Qadiyanis not only say they are anti-Muslim in Ghulam Ahmad's message, but say that there are nothing to connect them with Muslims since their God, Islam, Quran prayer and fasting are unlike the Muslims.

Qadiyani caliph's speech published in Al-Fadl on 21 Aug 1927, under the title of `Advice for Students' explains to his followers the differences between Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis. He says "... Since the promised Christ said that their Islam, their God, and their pilgrimage are unlike ours, we always differ from them in every thing".

In Jul 30, 1931, Al-Fadl published another speech by the Qadiyani caliph in which he mentioned a dispute that ensued between two groups of Qadiyanis. One reasoned that since differences between Qadiyanis and Muslims are known, and the promised Christ has clarified them there is no need to establish independent Qadiyani schools: we can learn all undisputed matters in Muslim schools. The other group disagreed. While they were still arguing, the promised Christ himself entered and listened to their dispute. Then, he gave his judgment saying: "It is wrong to say that we differ from Muslims only in the matter of Christ's death. We disagree with them in the wholeness of God, in the prophet, (peace be upon him), in the Quran, in prayer, in pilgrimage and in Al-Zakat. In short, he explained to them that we disagree quite completely with Muslims concerning all religious matters".

Qadiyanis themselves broke relations with Muslims in accordance with the great gap they had dug between them and Muslims. They organized themselves independently, as if they were a non-Muslim minority as affirmed by their own writings.

--"The promised Christ made it clear that Ahmadis should not be led in prayer by a Muslim. Many letters come questioning this matter. My answer to them all is that no matter how many times you repeat the question, I will answer that it is not right, not right, not right to be led in prayer by a non-Ahmadiyan". (Anwar Khilafat by Mirza Bashir Mahmud pp. 89)

--"We must neither believe in non-Ahmadiyan Islam, nor be led by them in prayer, because in our opinion they are disbelievers in one of Allah's prophets". (Ibid. pp. 90)

--"If a non-Ahmadi's son died why ,we do not pray for him though he does not disbelieve in Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Christ! I myself ask those who have questioned me why we do not pray for the son of a Hindu or a Christian when they die....The non-Ahmadi's son is one of the non-Ahmadis and for this reason prayer for them is not right". (Ibid. pp.93)

--"The promised Christ was loathsome of an Ahmadiyan who wanted to let his daughter a non-Ahmadiyan. The man asked him many times, but the promised Christ ordered him not to do so. Then the man allowed his daughter marriage after the death of the promised Christ, so the caliph drove him away from his religious position and did not accept his penitence though the man repeated it many times until six years elapsed". (Ibid. pp. 93-94)

--"The promised Christ did not allow any transaction with Muslims, except those permitted to be so with Christians and Jews. He distinguished us from Muslims in prayer, prohibited intermarriage with them, and prayer for their dead, so what is left to connect us with them? Interactions between people depend on two things and have two forms; a religious and a worldly transactions. The greatest means of religious transactions is to pray together and to intermarry. These two kinds are prohibited in our religion, and if you say that we are allowed to marry Muslim girls, I say that this applies to Christians, too. And if you question me why it is right to greet non-Ahmadis, my answer will be that according to a true prophet's Hadith, he returned the greetings of Jews". (Word Of Demarcation published in Rioy av Religinter, pp. 69)

Not only did Qadiyanis broke relations and transactions with Muslims in their speeches and writings, but they did so in practice as hundreds of thousands of Muslims had reported. They made an independent nation of themselves refusing to pray or intermarry with Muslims.

The problem being so, it is unreasonable that Qadiyanis remain a part of the Muslim community. It is not necessary that their independence should be legally enacted, since this had been a fact during the last fifty years.

By their attitude, Qadiyanis have proved what was difficult to prove before this time concerning the wisdom and practical benefits of the cessation of Allah's messages. In the past, one used to wonder why Allah's revelation and inspiration and Apostles cease to come.

Nowadays, experience has proven the great wisdom and beautiful benefits of this good favor from Allah. The belief that Mohammad was the last prophet united all monotheists in following only one prophet, and thus endowed them with what strengthened and ensured their unity and interactions. The renewal of a doctrine by many prophets separate the nation into many communities. If we expel Qadiyanis, none will dare to rise among us and pretend a new message to destroy our unity and solidarity. But if we overlook Qadiyanism, we will help and encourage many pretenders to rise and feign, and thus we participate in harming Muslim solidarity. And if we neglect this danger, our example will be followed by our sons, and thus the destruction will not stop and our society will face a new kind of danger everyday; dangers which split the Muslim nation.

This is our true argument on which we base our demands of making Qadiyanis a minority which has the rights of any non-Muslims minority. In fact, the argument that reaches home is with us and no other reasonable argument can be brought against our demand. Those who oppose our demand want to divert people from it with pretexts and objections that have nothing to do with the matter under question. They say, for instance, that various Muslim groups are still charging each other with disbelief and, if we go on separating group after another, the nation will vanish. Moreover, they say there are independent Muslim sects, as Qadiyanism, though they do not differ with Muslims in doctrines. Thus, they ask us whether we still intend to break relations with them or whether we chose to treat Qadiyanis a such out of hatred and wrath.

Many others were deceived by Qadiyanis' call to Islam. "Qadiyanis are defending Islam against Christian and Aryan attacks, and spreading it all over the world, so it is right to treat them as you do", they used to say. But we are going to discuss each of these points to answer any possible question.

1. It is lamentable true that Muslims' various groups are still charging each other with disbelief, but it is wrong to make this a pretext for Qadiyanism as a true Muslim sect; that is because:

a) It is unreasonable to give examples of bad charges and judge that any charge is unacceptable, and that charging anyone with disbelief is not right. In fact, it is as wrong to charge people with disbelief for trivial differences as to accept clear and certified deviations from the fundamental principles of Islam. Those who conclude from false charges against some scholars that all kinds of charges are not right are requested to answer whether a Muslim remains a believer if he pretends to be God or a prophet, or if he deviates from Islam's fundamental doctrines.

b) Muslim groups and sects whose charges against each other are being utilized held a conference in Karachi and agreed on the fundamental principles of the Muslim state. They agreed on the same principles because each considers the other a Muslim group or sect. None of them charged the other of being out of pale, though there were minor differences among them. Thus, to think that separating Qadiyanism from the Muslim nation will be a cause for separating many others is an illusion.

c) The Muslim nation's charge of Qadiyanis with disbelief is unlike any charge against others. Qadiyanis falsely pretended the existence of a new prophet who considers those who believe in him a separate nation and those who do not as disbelievers. Thus, all Qadiyanis agree on charging Muslims with rejection of faith, and Muslims have judged Qadiyanis as disbelievers, too.

Hence, it becomes quite clear that this is a fundamental difference which cannot be considered trivial and minor differences, as among various Muslim sects.

2. No doubt there are some sects other than Qadiyani who have withstood Muslims and broken their relationship with them, and organized their sects independently, but the wrong these have done is quite different from that done by Qadiyanis in many respects.

a) These sects have completely separated themselves from the Muslim nation to the extent that they have become like sl*g lying by the road which is neither harmful nor harmed. Their existence is bearable. Qadiyanis mix with Muslims, pretending to believe in their doctrines, discuss them with others, and to argue in the name of Islam, seeding, in fact, to split members off the Muslim community and win them to their side. A great tumult, disgraceful disunity, and oppressive occupations befell Muslims from Qadiyanis agency to foreign countries. For this and many other reasons we cannot abide with them.

b) The sects that have differences with the Muslim community are judged by Islamic jurisprudence. It decides whether their private beliefs drive them out of pale. And even if we suppose that they are not followers of Islam, their beliefs will not endanger Muslims and will not cause any social, economic, and political problems. But Qadiyanis' fabrication do endanger the faith of hundreds of thousands of Muslims and cause a social problem in every Muslim family that is influenced by them to the extent that husband forsakes his wife, and father abandons his son, and an enmity rises between two brothers. Moreover, other non-Qadiyani sects do not have any political trends that can be considered a danger to our national life. Qadiyanis do have some dangerous political tendencies that cannot be overlooked.

Qadiyanis were quite certain that, in an independent free Muslim society, a pretended message could not grow up or achieve its aims. They know that the Muslim nation abhors such pretenses as these which disperse Muslims, destroy Islamic laws, and split Muslim society.

Being aware of the attitude of the prophet's companions towards pretenders of holy messages, and of the fact that whenever Muslims take power in any country they will never admit new and false pretenses, Qadiyanis chose to connect themselves with disbeliever government because under no other shelter they can destroy Islam by feigning it.

They have made the Muslim nation their prey since they call to their doctrines, in the name of Islam. They know so well that it is in their interest to support foreign occupation because it suffocates Muslims and helps them achieve gains and destroy Islam. An independent and free Muslim nation is a hateful unfruitful land which they abhor greatly.

We can quote many texts taken from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's assertions and from his followers' declarations, but it suffices us to quote some and without commentary.

--"The English Government has bountifully rewarded, helped, and favored us to the extent that if we leave this country neither Mecca, nor Istanbul would shelter us. So how came you to doubt its goodness". (Ahmadiyan Talks, vol 1 pp.146)

--"I am unable to perform what I wish in Mecca, Medina, Domascus, Persia, Kabul or Rome except under this government's protection for whose glory and victory I do pray God". (Conveying the Message by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, vol VI pp. 69)

--"Oh, just think a little which land all over the world will shelter you, if you leave this country. Mention one government that will welcome and shelter you. All Muslim countries detest you and wish to kill you because, in their opinion, you are disbelievers. So estimate well the heavenly favor (the favor of British occupation) and be aware that Allah had not brought the British into this country except for your welfare and interests. If catastrophes befall the British, you will not escape their dire effect and if you demand a proof of what I say, go and find shelter under any other regime and when you do this you will see what happens to you. The British are Allah's mercy and blessing, and a citadel for your protection. Estimate the British well and love them dearly because they are a thousand times better than Muslims who oppose you. It is sufficient to convince you with only one thing: the British do not wish to humiliate or slaughter you". (Ghulam Ahmad's valuable advice in conveying the message vol 1, pp. 123)

--"It is well known to all those who study the history of nations how the Persian government maltreated Mirza Ali Mohammad Bab, the founder of Babism and his followers. It destroyed Babism for nothing else than religious disputes. It is as well known how the Turkish government ill-treated Bhah'Allah, the founder of Baha'ism and his followers between 1863-1893. It imprisoned them in Istanbul first, then in Edranovel and Acca. We also not know any other three countries which demonstrated religious fanaticism and narrowness and which do not cope with the age of civilization and culture. Our knowledge of these three countries leads us to the conviction that the freedom of Ahmadis is closely related to the British throne.

All true Ahmadis who believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a holy prophet sent by Allah to people do believe, without any little bit of flattery, that the British Government is Allah's favor and the shade of His mercy. They also believe that the life of the British Government is theirs". (Al Fadl 13 Sept 1914)

These above mentioned assertions quite clearly certify to the fact that this gang of pretenders are aware of the benefits of disbelievers' occupation of Muslim counties because under the protection of occupation they can achieve their aims. If Muslim got power into their hands, these pretenders will be crashed because free Muslims will not abide with those who destroy their religion and split their society.

More dangerous still is Qadiyanis tendencies to establish an independent state in Pakistan. One year after the rise of Pakistan, the Qadiyani caliph made a speech in Ku'ta in Jul 23, 1948, published in Al Fadl, in Aug 13, 1948. He said "British Plukhistan is allotted to you. (Now part of Pakistani Plukhistan). Its population is five or six hundred thousand inhabitants. Though less populated than other districts, it has a great importance. As individuals are valuable in our world, this district is as valuable as any part of Pakistan. An example from the American constitution will clarify its importance. Each state has an equal number of representatives no matter how big or populated it is. Now if we add British Plukhistan to Blukhistan district, the inhabitants will number a million. I think you realize the difficulty of converting the people of a big district. But don't you see that we can convert the people of a small district? If we take care we will spread Ahmadiyan banners over it all. Our doctrine will not succeed unless its roots are deep in the ground. Thus work and spread your doctrines and make them solidly rooted. Establish it in a place first and then if we succeed in converting people we will be proud of our district. As for converting people it is not an easy matter".

After all this talk, I wish to ask those who want us to abide with Qadiyanis and their deeds and who cling to the pretext that there are many sects in Islam whether there are such dangerous tendencies and policies as those of Qadiyanis. Does any sect find Islam harmful, and anti Islamic system beneficial? Is any sect going to abhor Muslims and prepare to establish an independent state in the heart of an Islamic regime? It appears that there is no sect that behaves as Qadiyanism and thus we ask why they want us to treat Qadiyanism as other sects?

This minor sect faces with another problem, it demands independence from us. Is it not right that we should expel it out of pale?

It has been said that necessity drives man to demand anything. The truthfulness of his demand depends on the acuteness of his necessity. Qadiyanis' existence among the Muslim majority harms Muslims greatly, for this the majority demands the legal separation of this harmful minority from its community. Qadiyanis are, in practice, independent from the Muslim majority and utilize their independence to organize their sect and destroy Islam's principles according to a pre-plotted methods. They also hide behind Islam and throw the seeds of split and differences among Muslims. By their cunning method of pretending Islam, they gain more administrative positions and employments. This harms the community and thus what pretext remains for any to let the minority persecute the majority or to refuse our demand of legal separation of Qadiyanis from the Muslim nation.

The majority did not create cause for separation, but the minority did when they established independent societies and broke social and religious relations with Muslims. This refusal to be legally separated from Muslims makes Qadiyanis utterly responsible for their refusal.

Allah had endowed you, readers, with mind and insight so look how they refuse to accept the results of their deeds. If they want to deceive, harm, and mar the unity of Muslims, how do you let the majority, while you are its representatives, fall a prey to the cunning of this deceitful minority.

Let us deal with the last problem which claims that since Qadiyanis defend Islam and spread it, it is not right to treat them as we do.

In fact, this is a groundless argument which tempted some newly educated people. We ask them to study and contemplate what we are going to quote from the writings from Ghulam Ahmad himself which will strip the aims of this pretender's defense of Islam. He says "I have been publishing books in English, Arabic, Persian and Urdu, out of my own enthusiasm to convince Muslims that their duty is to be faithful to the British Government that they should leave the notion of the holy strive and shun waiting for the Mehdi who sheds blood and all other trivial illusions which cannot be verified by the Quran. If they still adhere to these mistakes they must not, at least, deny the favors of this generous government or they will be sinners of disloyalty by Allah's laws". (Tiryak Al Kuloub 28 Oct 1902 pp.307)

In this same petition to the British Government he writes, "It is time I proudly say to my charitable government that this is my twenty year service to you. No Muslim family in British India can do as mine did. It is quite clear that twenty-year-long continuous effort to convince people with the above mentioned teachings cannot possibly be the work of a hypocrite. It is the work of a man who feels faithfulness and sincerity towards this government. I confess that I discuss religious matters with other priests, but with honest intentions. I have published many arguments about Christianity, but I also confess that when some missionaries wrote invective against Islam like the impolite wording of the mischievous argument in Nur Afshan in which the missionary charged our prophet with robbery, lust, adultery with his daughter, lies, and bloodshed, I feared lest these writings irritate Muslims who are quickly angered, so I found it a good policy to write against these books in order to extinguish the fire of Muslims' wrath and lessen the consequent general abhorrence and to deaden the anger of people who may react and cause disturbances that threaten the national security. It is clear that I only wrote against these invective books, because I found that writing was the only way to extinguish the flame of wrath among Muslim enthusiasts". (pp. 308-309) Then he goes on to say "All I wrote against missionaries was motivated by a wish to control Muslims with wisdom and entertain them and deaden their monstrous rebellious minds. I declare I am the most faithful and the most helpful Muslim to the British Government. There are three causes which brought me up to this first rate loyalty to the British; the first is my father's influence, the second is the great favors of this government, Allah's revelation". (pp. 309-310)

Mirza also wrote the same in the annex of his book Shahadatu'l Quran entitled a request worthy of the government's favor, "My religion which I declare once and again is that Islam is divided into two parts. The first is to obey God, the second is to obey the government which ensures the nation's security, shelters us, and protects us from oppressors. This government that we should all obey is the British government".

We also find in his Conveying The Message, vol. VII, a petition to his majesty the district ruler in which he assured the ruler of his family's sincerity to the British Government. He reported the letters Mirza Ghulam Murat Khan had received from Lahore's ruler and Punjabi financial advisor, as well as other British rulers who witnessed to his great services which denote his sincerity, faithfulness, loyalty, and love to the British, and enumerated the most important members of his family who served the British. Then he said ,"The most important work to which I was and still am devoted to is to divert the hearts of Muslims from Islam towards sincerity, love, loyalty and truthful gratitude to the British government, and to get rid of wrong illusions such as the holy war and other silly beliefs which impair sincere relations with the British (pp. 10).

I did not only concentrate on filling the hearts of Indian Muslims with sincere obedience to the British, but also wrote many books in Arabic, Persian and Urdu in which I clarified to the inhabitants of Muslim countries how we spend the days of our life in security, happiness, prosperity, and freedom under the British Government's sheltering care". (pp. 10) Then, he gave a long list of his books which certify to his sincere love and great loyalty to the British. Then, he wrote, "The government should verify whether those thousands of Muslims who call me a disbeliever, swear at me and at my followers, and harm us because I wrote thousands of declarations which were full of my grateful thanks to the government dictated by myself and out of my conscience, heart, and utter conviction and published them in all the Arab countries. Are not these matters clear? I assert that my sect has a first-rate loyalty to the British government and that it is the most sincere, faithful and loyal Muslim sect, because it declares its readiness to sacrifice everything for the British. The principles of the British do not, in any sense, endanger ours". Then he wrote, "I am certain that so long as my followers increase, those who believe in the holy war against occupation decrease. Belief in me is a denial of the existence of a holy war". (pp. 17)

Disregarding whether this language and these expressions are worthy of a prophet, we wish to attract the reader's attention to the fact that these are the aims of the founder of this religion and these are the purposes for which he exerted himself, "defended Islam", and "spread its teachings". Is this service to "Islam" still worthy of thanks and respect after all that we have seen of its stimuli and aims? And if it is still difficult for some people to know the reality of this service to Islam, we ask them to contemplate what we are going to quote from Qadiyanis' confessions.

-- "We came across a book by an Italian engineer who held an important position in Afghanistan. The book was once published and by mere chance only that we got this rare copy. In it, the author says that Sahib Zadeh Abdullatif, a Qadiyani, was killed in Afghanistan, because he was urging people to shun 'the holy war'. The government feared lest his call weakens the passion for freedom in the hearts of Afghanis and thus enslave them to the British. We deduce from this fact that Afghanistani regime did not kill that Qadiyani, except because he called people to shun 'the holy war'. (Mirza Bashir's speech on a Friday Al-Fadl 6 Aug 1935).

-- Afghanistan's Minister of Foreign Affairs issued the following declaration, "After Mulla Abdulhalim Jihar Asiyanis and Mulla Nur Ali Hanuti had become Qadiyanis, they began to teach their fabricated doctrines in the name of reform.....After some time, they were arrested for another matter and tried. Letters from some foreigners were confiscated which prove their agency and conspiracy against the interests of Afghanistan. The letters reveal quite clearly how far they went in selling themselves up to the enemies of Afghanistan". (Al-Fadl, 3 Mar 1925)

-- "Though I went to Russia to call people to Qadiyanism, I always did and served the British Government at the same time because our interests and British Government's are in complete harmony with each other". (Mohammad Amin, a Qadiyani preacher in his essay published in Al-Fadl 28 Sep 1922)

--"The world considers us British agents. When a German minister participated in the opening of Ahmadiyan center in Germany, his government blamed him and asked him 'why did you participate in a special occasion related to people who are British agents'". (A speech by Qadiyani's caliph Nov 1934)

--"We hope that with the increase of British empire, the chances for more converts from Muslims and non-Muslims will increase". (Opinions concerning Lord Harding's tour in Iraq published in Al-Fadl, 11 Feb 1910)

--"The British Government is like paradise to us. Ahmadis are going on well under the shelter of this paradise. If you leave it, you will see what frightening shower of poisonous arrows will come down upon you heads. So why don't you thank this government's favors when you all know what its interests are united with ours, its desolation means ours, and its prosperity affects ours. Wherever this government wins a new country to its domain we win a new field for our doctrines". (Al-Fadl 19 Oct 1915)

--"The relations between Qadiyanis and the British Government are unlike any other; that is because our interested demand this. What benefits the British Government enriches us, and as the British empire increases our chances for progress increase. if it is harmed - God forbid - we will not be able to live safely. (Qadiyanis caliph's declaration Al-Fadl 27 Jul 1918)

Thus, we have clarified the reality of Qadiyanism, uncovering its doctrines, trends, and deeds. And now we are going to explain the rise of this sect.

1. Half a century elapsed and Muslims were still living the worst kind of life under British occupation. Then suddenly a man pretended he was a prophet. He claimed that it was insufficient for Muslims to believe in Muhammad (PBUH), but they should, if they wanted true faith and the right Islam, believe in him, too. Disbelievers in him are out of the Islamic pale. Thus, a pretender rises among the unified Muslim nation to say he is a prophet.

2. According to his false pretense, this man established a new community and an independent society which opposed Muslims as Hindus and Christians do, and disagreed with Muslim beliefs, habits, hopes, and sufferings.

3. The founder of this new community felt, since the beginning of his pretense, that Muslim society cannot bear to be destroyed, so he and his gang chose to be loyal, sincere, and loving servants of the British occupation. This was not only a practical policy, but also in awareness of the fact that his interest are consistent with the victory of the British, not only in India but also in the other Muslim countries in order to spread his poison and fabrications.

4. This sect, according to a conspiracy with the British, disappointed all Muslims' efforts during the past fifty years to separate it from the Muslim community. The government continued to insist on the sect being considered part and parcel of Muslims despite all differences. Muslims were harmed greatly by these measures, while Qadiyanism won great benefits.

The government, despite all scholars' efforts, continued to convince Muslims that Qadiyanis are one of the sects of Islam to enable Qadiyanis to spread their doctrines among Muslims. A Muslim will not abstain from following Qadiyanism, if it is legally considered a Muslim sect, and this benefits Qadiyanis greatly because they are increasing their numbers and power. Muslims are harmed because a new community which opposed them was growing up like cancer in their body.

The plight of Qadiyanism appeared in Punjab, harmed, and destroyed it; so it was natural that the most wrathful Muslims against Qadiyanis are the Punjabis.

This sect won all the favors of the British Government and the most army, police, justice, and administrative posts in the country. It is strange that this sect won all these posts from those assigned to Muslims because the government considers it one of the Muslim sects and continues to convince Muslims that these posts are assigned to them only. Muslims are treated as such in economy, trade, industry, and agriculture.

Brother it true there is much good in Islam, however Brother some Muslims of all religions or those with none included are acting like animals and there has to be some positive change as well as some better guidance as it seems what has been is not working.

Islam is always evolving and getting better and at the same time digressing as some people set Islam back a hundred thousand years with their actions.

People need excellent education and training in not just the kind of work they will do like being a labourer, dentist, cleaner, carpenter etc., they also need education, training, consultation and counseling as well as prayer with living prayers and Hajj (Pilgrimage) made to all levels of their lives seeing where they need assistance or where they can be of assistance.  This world needs an Inter Faith Call to Jihad and this Jihad is to heal and renew individuals, families, communities,  Nations and the World.  

People also need education and training in the following so Islam will be made manifest in the heart and soul of everyone and especially in their actions and behaviors. 

Some of the education and training most need is training and education in Healthy Boundaries, Good Communication Skills, Effective Conflict Resolution Skills, Parenting Skills, How to nurture a healthy relationship and education in the stages and levels of sexual frustration so everyone understands how to cope with these very human but sometimes dangerous feelings, workshops in how to cope with rejection and career planning as well as how to keep the romance alive in your marriage until the end of your days.

If these kinds of training or education are more readily available and accessible and people are encouraged to participate then we will see the world Blossom in Islam.

There is hope and it begins with you.

If you have been abused or have been abusive to yourself or others seek out trained counselors or supportgroups and community resources that can turn your life around and make you a Hero even Bigger than Superman or Super Woman.

May Allah Bless your efforts at positive change and help Islam evolve.

Salam Alaikoam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote: I am working on my religion, Islam.

What do you mean, working on it? working to better understand islam yourself or working on it to change islam ?

There are a number of laws that need to be changed

Are these from fatwas or the hadiths or the qu'ran ?

Laws that do not abide by the Human Rights act should not be used. Laws that cut peoples hands or heads of should be cut out from the religion and society. As well as the laws that tell people to hang or stone other people or injure them in any way.

yes yes and while agree with you but......the laws are from God aren't they which therefore cannot be changed, am I right ?

Do you believe Islam is perfect ? If so why do you plan to change it ? if not then, can you call yourself muslim ? (no offence here)

Anyone, can fatwas be changed ?

Yes I am working on improving Islam and its laws as well as call the people toan Inter Faith Education, Counseling and Consultation Jihad (Jihad means struggle and the first level is self) with prayer and living prayers with Hajj (pilgrimage ) made to all levels of our lives seeing where we need positive change or assistance and where we can be of assistance, this is a call for people of all religions and those with none as We are all Muslims or People in the Process of submitting our wills to Allah or in simpler terms the process of learning to be good people.

Islam is not jailed in the texts of books or docuements. Islam is within the Hearts, Minds and Souls of all Mankind.

Allah breathed His spirit into us at our creation in all His creation and we and all life is sacride as We are the Being of The Most Great, The Mighty, The Powerful and we were meant to reflect all His many attributes in all our activies and spiritual journey until our return to His Spiritual Kingdom.

Making this sacride Hajj to our lives is needed in order to restore order to the world and establish Peace in all the realms of the seen and unseen with affirmations of Faith.

The time has come to accept there is only one process and this is Islam and all religions are a reflection of the evolution of Islam and the need of Mankind to have choices and the ability to choose for themselves their path so therefore even though a religion may have another name it is all Islam and an expression of the process.

True each religion has differences and this is okay as in the end the core foundation is Islam and in this there is in every case Education,. Training, Counseling, Consultation, Prayers and prayers with living prayers as well as Hajj (Pilgrimage) made to some portions of their lives and this is the case even for people who follow no religion.

To say that a Muslim is allowed to chop the hands off a thief, stone someone to death, hang someone, torture them is a sin in itself as in this day and age it is no longer acceptable as Education, Counseling and Consultation are true Justice as well as caring properly for the poor.

Change is happening to Islam everyday and all life is an example of that.

We are all Messengers of Allah and our lives are parables and stories from which to learn and teach others and set excellent examples of people with Faith and Respect for the wonderful Spirit Allah gave them.

There is a lot of work to do but if everyone does there part the money saved from Justice costs, Medical costs can be divertd to education and training and making other activities more accessible and life more fun to live.

Allah wants the best for us anything less is a waste of Our time and His time!

May Allah Bless you if you are being abused or are abusing anyone or yourself and get started on your personal Jihad and get some counseling, education or training and if needed speak to your doctor for a referal to a counselor or health educator in your community for the issues you are faced with.

Allah created you especially to be a bright light and Leader amongst Nations and the World and let your story be a story told ten thousand years from now Inshallah in how you went from being abused to leaving the abuse behind and learning to demand respect for yourself and your family as this is what Allah wants.  You can be a Hero just as motivationial as Mohammed PBUH was in His Mission and your Mission is to make yourself and your life better and improve the world in the process. 

Allah created you especially to be a bright light and Leader amongst Nations and the World and let your story be a story told ten thousand years from now Inshallah in how you went from being abusive and mean to others and yourself and how you overcame these bad behaviors and learned new better kinder communication and coping skills learning to respect yourself, your family and others in the process this is what Allah wants. You can be a Hero just as motivationial as Mohammed PBUH was in His Mission and your Mission is to make yourself and your life better and improve the world in the process. 

In this undertaking Angels Rank on Rank will join you in your efforts and support you as they can at least this is my hope and prayer Inshallah we will have a great sorting out into groups.

People talk about the last days and waiting for the end catastrophy to come well you know what if we work on our selves and become more kinder, friendlier, generous and caring for all levels of our lives then the only castastrophies will be from Nature not from any of us unless accidental!

So this is the Last Day, Judgement day were you abused?  If so then seek out some counseling to deal with what ever issues you may have in resolving this peacefully and safely.

So this is the Last Day, Judgement Day have you abused anyone or caused anyone injury by your anger or frustration or lack of knowledge?  If so then seek out counseling to learn new and better skills to become the person you were meant to be so everyone can see for once that beautiful and wonderful spirit you hide in all that anger, rage and violence and bad behavior.

So this is the Last Day, Judgement Day are you abusing yourself in anyway, not looking after yourself, making excuses why not to exercise and be healthy or participate in community or family activities then it is time to take charge of your life and get off your butt and get to work as the money we will save in health costs we can use to feed and educate Nations!  You are important and your health and well being is important and the world needs you to arise and volunteer and be active in your family and community.

So this is the Last Day, Judgement Day so governments you complain about the costs of violence and crime and health care costs well help inspire the Nations in this Inter Faith Call to Jihad (Jihad mean s struggle and the first Level is Self) and in inspiring them and giving them hope a change will come to the World that will bring Paradise Jannah on Earth that much closer Inshallah and every soul is prescious so don't wait.  Get those teachers, counselors and educators trained and create more support groups and support people in a greater way in improving themselves and their lives and also to help save the environement in the process.  Allah created the resources of this world for the benifit of everyone so it is most fitting that every Nation ensure that a fairer share is given to all the people not just some of the people.

If you do not understand what is at stake then consider that if third world war breaks out becuase people are struggling to feed and educate themselves and just sustain a basic living then the fault is none other than yours.

However there is hope as I suggest a new kind of W.A.R.S. = World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually and call all the peoples of all Nations to this undertaking and make education, training, medical care, accessible as well as more media education programs in encouraging people to seek counseling , support groups or education to solve their issues rather than resorting to anger, violence or apathy.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote: Yes I am working on improving Islam and its laws

so you as a muslim think/believe that islam is not perfect, mmmmm

The time has come to accept there is only one process and this is Islam and all religions are a reflection of the evolution of Islam and the need of Mankind to have choices and the ability to choose for themselves their path so therefore even though a religion may have another name it is all Islam and an expression of the process.

ALL religions a reflection of islam ?? 

I guess satanism is included here  

To say that a Muslim is allowed to chop the hands off a thief, stone someone to death, hang someone, torture them is a sin in itself as in this day and age it is no longer acceptable as Education, Counseling and Consultation are true Justice as well as caring properly for the poor.

Can you answer my question in my previous post? please

Suleyman wrote: I'll turn back to that thread after i have turned back to home....

I'll await

Hi Angel

I suppose you could say Satanism is an expression of it as well as there can be a light and dark side to all things.

Evolution as we have seen with technology when missused is not always a good thing.

There is work to be done on many levels in our societies, families, lives and world and it is a process we can call life or Islam take your pick.

Anne Marie

Angel wrote: Suleyman wrote: I'll turn back to that thread after i have turned back to home.... I'll await

Angel please don't wait,i am not an discussion man at least in english...i just read and value them in my heart and inside of knowledge...take care...

Challenges we all face and it because we all face tests and challenges the same as any of the Prophets of Old like Adam and Eve in the Garden, Moses on the Mountain, Jesus in the desert, Mohammed in the Caves only we each face our tests in our daily lives and we learn and have revelations as a result.

Turning the tide on many forms of abuse is a huge challenge however if each of us accepts our portion of responsibility for ourselves, our families, friends and community and get excellent training, education and guidance to turn our lives around not only do we in time become haelthier we become happier, so do our families, Communities and Nations.

When the bible said Jesus would return and that there would be things like father against son, or son against father it is not always a mean or negative thing just each person addressing issues of abuse or family violence which has to be done and in a productive and caring way.

The elements of change are belieiving in yourself, your family and community that they can learn new things as minds are not incased in stone though hearts may be.

Patience, understanding and forgiveness take a journey into your soul and the souls and minds of others and it is a journey that takes caring and effort, and we are all worth the effort especially you if you have suffered from abuse, self abuse or if you were abusive there is hope for positive change too.

There is hope and this hope begins with each of us.

If you were abused, self abusive or abusive we want you to be a Hero and seek out excellent guidance and training in turning your life around and for you to become a healthier and happier participant in yourself, your family, your community and Nation.  This caring for your self and if others follow your example could save lives, make life happier and healthier for everyone not to mention free up Justice and Medical costs for creating activities and infra structure in the community that could cheer up everyone and make life in general like a journey to a place of no sorrow.

So cheer up and believe in yourself and get the assistance you need to be the best person you can be.

There are a lot of people wishing you well.

If you have begun to address your challenges of being abused, self abusive or abusive then hats off to you and keep up the good work, keep things positive.

May Allah Bless you Abundantly

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Salam Alaikoam

Islam is always changing and evolving and occassionally it takes a step back ward.

What was acceptable 1400 years ago or 200 years ago is now not acceptable and this is due to education, counseling and consultation.

Islam the word means to submit to the will of Allah and Allah is ever revealing His many mysteries and wonders to us each moment and not to one of us but all of us each to a degree and portion.

Many pearls of wisom stream from Allah to us everyday we just have to listen and pay attention.

You may want to and may wish to contain all Islam in the Quran and Hadeath but this can never be done as all life is in a state of Islam and there for one could use the word life interchangable with Islam as it is the same thing, the same process.

Guidance does not just oridginate with books no Leadership and guidance comes from each of us and that is why excellence in education and training in many things is needed especially in skills such as good communication skills, good conflict resolution skills, healthy boundaries, parenting skills, relationship building skills and education in the stages and levels of sexual frustration and how to cope with these in healthy ways and especially community resource centers where questions may be asked.

All life as I mentioned is an expression of Islam and all religions are an expression of the evolution of Islam and it's diversity and the many paths Allah has given us free choice to choose from including following none and each person is responsible for their choice no one else.

There is hope for Islam and Life itself and if we want to see Jannah in this life then there is much work to be done and this work begins with each of us taking responsibility for our lives and our Families and if we are being abused, self abusive or abusing anyone then seek out training, education and excellent counselors to guide you towards a better path you, your Family, your Community is worth the effort.

Though going to counseling or training to learn some of the new skills I mentioned may seem to challengeing at the moment in time you will come to a place where you can say you are happy and this moment is Jannah at least within yourself and maybe your Family.

The Islam I believe in is an Islam that believes in True Justice and that is Education, Counseling, Consultation with Prayer and Living Prayers along with Hajj (Pilgrimage) made to all levels of ones life, ones family, ones community and ones Nation seeing where we need assistance, education, training and where we can be of assistance this is an Inter Faith Call to Jihad (Jihad means struggle and the first level is self.)

There is much hope and it begins with each of us accepting our share of the responsibility for positive and productive change within ourselves, our Families and communities.

No one should ever feel like Allah does not know they are here and that if they are suffering they have not been heard that is why we need to rebuild Self Esteem and respect within individuals, families and communities.

We need World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually.

Inshallah we will have a greater sorting out into resolution and learning groups than we already have now, Surah 99, 1-8.

Allah Bless each of Us on this Journey.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Suleyman wrote: Angel wrote: Suleyman wrote: I'll turn back to that thread after i have turned back to home.... I'll await Angel please don't wait,i am not an discussion man at least in english...i just read and value them in my heart and inside of knowledge...take care...

Is that why you haven't joined in talks of late ?

Once you used to join in

amlhabibi2000 wrote: There is work to be done on many levels in our societies, families, lives and world and it is a process we can call life or Islam take your pick. Anne Marie

So you saying that life is islam / islam is life ?

And if life isn't perfect, then islam isn't perfect ?

Would I be correct in saying that, you did say take your pick up above - life or islam 

I would say that would be an accurate statement of many things including Islam and life.

These theories, paths, methods are always evolving and changing for the better if and when people allow them to.

There is a continuing struggle to learn new and better skills and strategies in dealing with life experiences and in this it can be a challenge to let go of old ways of coping or doing as  they may be familiar and appear easier to do however some of the old ways have lasting negative effects.

There is hope and though there are some people who are getting along well others are still struggling and suffering.

Positive change takes as much effort as negative change but leaves a lasting wave of goodness in its path even though setting boundaries may appear to have other results creating your own little spot of heaven is worth it.

May Allah Bless us All!

I have no Fear of Allah.

amlhabibi2000 wrote: Islam is always changing and evolving and occassionally it takes a step back ward.

You're equating islam with life here. If you put "life" where "islam" is, then yes I would agree with you, life is always changing and evolving.

But I don't think you can say that above and then say this:

as all life is in a state of Islam and there for one could use the word life interchangable with Islam as it is the same thing, the same process.

if all life is in a state of islam, then islam cannot be life, or equated with life nor be interchangable with islam, if ALL life is in a state of islam (which is under the will of God/Allah in other words submits to the will of God) how can you say that islam is life, life is islam ?

No offense to Amy but I think you may be confusing Angel in the name of Islam, and I mean this in the sincerest way. I do however agree with the initial approach that life was created and is functioning in the Islamic way. All of life whthere conscious or unconscious submits to a higher source. The birds may not call Allah by Allah but as Islam (as well as the Qur'an) puts it all life forms be it in the heavens and the earth give praise to God. Now as far as us humans are concerned our life is molded around the Islamic principle:

-When we breathe we submit to the natural function of inhaling and exhaling which our lungs work to get oxygen in our bloodstream to sustain our life.

-The same way when our brains tell us to feed ourselves we submit to this biological function to nourish ourselves with some type of healthy (and hopefully halaal) sustenence.

These particulars can be looked at in the biological function of life being Islam yes, but as the symbolic way of saying life is like Islam (and then Angel using deductive logic to prove that life is imperfect) I can say that symbolically yes and no. First and foremost our ideas of life being imperfect and perfect are totally subjective and hence are not universal. A philosopher by the name of Leibniz once said "This is not the best of all the worlds God has created." To me I believe that our idea of perfection and imperfection in respect to divine providence is flawed.

We cannot compared anything in matter of physical description to God or anything we deem divine. We may think Roses are "beautiful" but we cannot say that "God picked a beautiful color" because even if the words no matter how correct and poetic they are someone in the world even of that same belief may think otherwise hence our collective minds cannot universally believe every particular thing is attributed to God this includes life.

Life is the way God created it but its not our final destination as Allah says in the Qur'an. Hence the life that exist now must be appreciated and must be accepted as a type of divine test, this as much is noted in the Qur'an and other Abrahamic traditions. I do however inevitably think there are beautiful things in the world and things (such as women) are perfect in structure and form, but this is an individual opinion. I do however believe that the structure in which all things are perfect and functioning but then again this is my own opinion. I cannot say that Life like Islamis perfect because as Angel did someone will always say that life is imperfect hence Islam is imperfect....To save that type of disagreement we must accept that life is from divine providence and that its sacred and must be respected.

Angel wrote: amlhabibi2000 wrote: Islam is always changing and evolving and occassionally it takes a step back ward. You're equating islam with life here. If you put "life" where "islam" is, then yes I would agree with you, life is always changing and evolving. But I don't think you can say that above and then say this: as all life is in a state of Islam and there for one could use the word life interchangable with Islam as it is the same thing, the same process. if all life is in a state of islam, then islam cannot be life, or equated with life nor be interchangable with islam, if ALL life is in a state of islam (which is under the will of God/Allah in other words submits to the will of God) how can you say that islam is life, life is islam ?

Angel,....wonderful....so deep par. can open so much doors about the issue....

Yes Islam and Life are the same process as you will know the flowers always do their duty and obey the laws that are unwritten and built into their existance.

With Mankind we have a unique challenge as human beings are given free will do do as they please, however excellnce in education, counseling, consultation and open lines of communication and a positive attitude towards life can work wonders in challenging situations.

Islam is in all life and each of us are in various stages and degrees of submitting our will to be good and excellent people.

The challenge is to inpire people further to work together to solve all the problems and challenges we have in caring and excellent ways.

Respect is key here too however some issues cannot be left to chance.

There is hope and we have to built on this hope and create this hope within ourselves and others.

Positive change takes some effort and we and the world are all worth this effort and caring.

Islam is more than you know....

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Yes Islam and Life are the same process as you will know the flowers always do their duty and obey the laws that are unwritten and built into their existance. With Mankind we have a unique challenge as human beings are given free will do do as they please, however excellnce in education, counseling, consultation and open lines of communication and a positive attitude towards life can work wonders in challenging situations. Islam is in all life and each of us are in various stages and degrees of submitting our will to be good and excellent people. The challenge is to inpire people further to work together to solve all the problems and challenges we have in caring and excellent ways. Respect is key here too however some issues cannot be left to chance. There is hope and we have to built on this hope and create this hope within ourselves and others. Positive change takes some effort and we and the world are all worth this effort and caring. Islam is more than you know.... Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Es_Selam'un Aleykum...

Sister Amlhabibi,just one question for you please,is wearing hijab obligatory for muslim women?...if you will answer in your own mentality with yes or no i will be pleased...i just want to trying to understand ur reference....wa salaam...

In history wearing Hijab was believed to save women from various abuses however it is evident that there are only a few things that can protect a person from the unwanted advances from others and that is fully understanding and comphrending how to cope with the levels and stages of sexual frustration, lonelieness, jealousy, having good communication skills, good conflict resoltution skills, parenting skills, education in how to build a healthy relationship and open lines of communication with friends, family, community and nation.

It is evident that state of dress has little to do with being respected as it has been show that numerous cultures dress in various states of undress and this seems to have little importance as there was no greater amount of promiscuity or abuses in those cultures.

The real issue is having personal boundaires and respect for others regardless of what they are wearing.

One effective veil is the act of lowering your gaze or looking else where.

(One hadeath of Prophet Mohammed PBUH) The time will come when Muslim men are of such high character that if even the most beautiful woman past before them naked in the street they would not harm her what so ever.  (I paraphrased as I do not have the original copy of this Surah)

If people were educated to deal with their emotions better and how to deal with their frustrations, sexual or other then the people and the world would be more caring and generous I believe.

Healthy relationships are key and important and the first relationship we have is with ourselves and learning to respect ourselves and others.

That is one reason why we need an InterFaith Call to JIhad of Education, Counseling, Consultation with Prayer and Living Prayer with Hajj(Pilgrimage) made to all levels of ourselves, our families, communities and Nations seeing what we need assistance with and where we can be of assistance.

There is hope and we have to build on this hope.

So to answer your question if Muslim men of all religions and those with none would respect themselves and other people woman would not have to wear Hijab, Burqa or other head coverings and would be respected regardless of what they wear.

Though I have to say there are appropriate places to wear cirtain things.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi,

There is nothing wrong with making the world a better place, or bettering the state of the muslims.  BUT what you fail to understand is that this happens through Obedience to Allah (his commands).   All of the problems you find in the muslim and non-muslim world are due to the fact that people are not  holding tight (mutamassikeen) to Islam.  YOU CANNOT IMPROVE ON GOD.  Allah has perfected this religion for us.  Allah's laws do not need to be amended as do man-made laws. 

Allah says:

"...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion..."

sura 3 ayat 5

Simply put, Islam is flawless.  You mentioned that you are muslim.  It sounds to me that you are a convert.  Am I correct?  If so, how did you come to Islam/what made you convert?

Alaikoam Salam

The way I understand Islam is that Islam is a process of submitting to the will of Allah and we are all in this process in degreess making us all Muslims with freeedom to choose from the many spiritual paths Allah has set before us.

We are Messengers of Allah and as such we need excellence in education, counseling, consultation, prayer, with living prayer and make Hajj (Pilgrimage) on a daily basis to all levels of our lives, families, communities and Nations seeing where we need assistance and where we may be of assistance.

As Messengers regardless of what we do it is a message from the spiritual world, sometimes it is a cry of ignorance or suffering and we need the tools to be able to be an excellent voice for Allah though as I mentioned there is a Message or Messages in each persons life story and we can learn from this and who knows whose story or parts of it will be remembered ten thousand years from now.

I believe that Islam is always evolving and we are too.  If we have the right attitude and spirit we can accomplish many things and Inshallah personal and world peace will be on of them.

As for when I converted though I am tempted to say recently I have to speak the truth and say I have always been in the process of Islam and that I believe we make Shadah before we are sent into this world, each of us promising to be good people and serve Allah.

However it is the world and our attitude and spirit that either brings us closer to the will of Allah and being good people or giving in to anger, dispair or frustration and ending up being negative and a creator of unrest within ourselves and others.

So as I see it if we have any challenges then we should seek out community resources like counseling, education and training to teach us Healthy boundaries, good communication skills, good conflict resolution skills, parenting skills, how to build a healthy relationship with others and ourselves, education in how to cope with the stages and levels of sexual frustration and how to ensure we make an excellent choice in marriage partner or respect someone we have relations with if this happens.

There is great Hope in Life and Islam and they are the same there is no difference.

Imagine a world where everyone has the education they need, a job of some kind to feed themselves and there families, affordable housing, affordable medical care and recreation we can have all this however as I said it will take a great sorting out of people and everyone taking their place at the Table of Life and Islam and accepting their portion of responsiblitiy, caring for them selves, their families and communities and facing the issues that need to be faced and working as a team to accomplish all the goals.

Inshallah may it be so.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Alaikoam Salam We are Messengers of Allah and as such we need excellence in education, counseling, consultation, prayer, with living prayer and make Hajj (Pilgrimage) on a daily basis to all levels of our lives, families, communities and Nations seeing where we need assistance and where we may be of assistance. As Messengers regardless of what we do it is a message from the spiritual world, sometimes it is a cry of ignorance or suffering and we need the tools to be able to be an excellent voice for Allah though as I mentioned there is a Message or Messages in each persons life story and we can learn from this and who knows whose story or parts of it will be remembered ten thousand years from now.

It's clear to me that you have some issues with abuse.  You mention it a lot in your posts.  So much that I think you copy and paste some of your paragraphs.  Were you abused as a child or an adult? 

As I see it we are Prophets and Messengers each of us with a duty to be the best people we can be and assist others in being their best too, anything less is a waste of precious lives and life.

I will not comment at the moment on my life, however what I do know is that there is a lot of abuse going on in the world and it will take education, counseling and consultation as well as the other things I mentioned to resolve this barrier to personal and world peace in ourselves and others.

There is a great amount of hope in the world and it begins within each of us and we need to nurture and develope this hope more so it will become a certainty.

In this time we need affirmations of Faith from the seen and unseen and abundant caring for all realms of the world.

Whether we call the process Islam or Life really is not important what is important is that we live a good life to the best of our ability in being the best, kindness and caring people we can be most of the other things are are the stepping stones on our path and respect the Creator, Allah, God or what ever name you give the creation force and respect all life in the process of living a healthy balanced life.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote: As I see it we are Prophets and Messengers each of us with a duty to be the best people we can be and assist others in being their best too, anything less is a waste of precious lives and life. Whether we call the process Islam or Life really is not important what is important is that we live a good life to the best of our ability in being the best, kindness and caring people we can be most of the other things are are the stepping stones on our path and respect the Creator, Allah, God or what ever name you give the creation force and respect all life in the process of living a healthy balanced life. Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anne Marie,

You are becoming like a needle stuck in the grove of a scratched record.  Many here have tried to reason with you, tried to warn you of the wrong path you are taking, but you do not seem to want to listen.

"Whether we call the process Islam or Life really is not important..."  Actually, it is of the utmost importance.  You are hijacking the name of a religion and using it to lead people astray by portraying Islam as something that it is not!

"Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who have changed the favour of Allah into blasphemy and caused their people to descend to the House of Perdition? -

Into Hell?  They will burn therein - an evil place to stay in!

And they set up (idols) as equal to Allah, to mislead (men) from the Path!  Say: 'Enjoy (your brief power)!  But, verily, ye are making straightway for Hell!"  Qur'an surah Ibrahim 14:28-30

Please quit calling your man-made "religion" Islam!

Peace, ummziba.

I am not leading anyone astray when I say Life and Islam are the same.

Life and Islam are always evolving and developing better ways of communicating, educating, nurturing and encouraging each of us to be better people and this process is called both Life and Islam.

Also there are laws in Life and Islam that need adjusting as they do not abide by the human rights act and education, counseling and consultation are true justice.

There is no justice in being stoned to death, having ones hands cut off or tortured in any other way to address particular crimes, the only justice, true justice is education, training, counseling and consultation and a world ready and prepared to nurture, guide and protect all of the people not just some of the people.

If we want there to be less crime in the world then there are issues that need to be addressed and attitude is one of them, as well as more sharing and caring so that everyone is educated to their ability and employed in work that can maintain themselves and their families in affordable housing and access to the other things that make life liveable like good food and healthy relationships, open lines of communication and community supports, such as child care and medical attention.

Islam is not contained souly in books Islam is Life itself and as such both are always in the process of change and evolution towards healthier, happier ways of resolving challenges and encouraging the empowerment of all beings seen and unseen and affirmations of Faith.

If you understand what I have shared that is wonderful and if not then consider it for awhile longer in the end you are welcome to take or leave these thoughts.

May Allah Bless you all Abundantly!

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

>>>>There is no justice in being stoned to death, having ones hands cut off or tortured in any other way to address particular crimes, the only justice, true justice is education, training, counseling and consultation and a world ready and prepared to nurture, guide and protect all of the people not just some of the people.<<<<

Every society has laws and guidelines that its adherents live by and if those laws are transgressed by lawless individuals then there should be punishments fitting the crime. Now Annie in response to your post above I would say that your statment is appropriate HOWEVER I believe the Qur'an has made it clear that it (The Qur'an) serves as a guideline for humanity especially for practicing Muslims. With that said along with other supplimental texts (AHadith) those guidelines are set along with their consequences.

When you mention that there is injustice in the cutting off the hands I would disagree with you. If the laws are stated clearly and the consequences are stated clearly what's unjust about that? If the Islamic judicial system is practiced upon Quranic law what injustice is there if the Qur'an is perfect? Do you deny the Qur'an not being perfect? If you do then not only would you statement above is understandable but its also understandable (and clear) that you're not a practicing Muslim either and with that its understandable that you would hold the Qur'an as imperfect as you would think Islam is.

Let me remind the believers that Islam is not like a biology study. allah's will never changes nor does Allah change. However I would say that life grows from an UNCHANGED foundation.

Israfil wrote: Rami how did you figure that out?

Brother please tell me you're joking .  It's pretty clear; the woman's posts are filled with kufr.  

salaam

Alaikoam Salam

Brothers and Sisters

Though you may not understand or agree I see Islam in all things and believe it is a process we all are in regardless of our choosen spiritual path or appeared lack of such and that We are all Muslims.

It is my belief that none of us are excluded from Islam or Life and that we are all called to be Messengers of Allah, God and the Creator and as such Messengers we all need excellent education, training, counseling, consultation and guidance to be the best people we can be.

Islam is a process that transends all Life and is expressed in all life.

Islam does not belong to one person or even a group of people, Islam belongs to everyone and everyone belongs to Islam.

To establish Jannah in this life or Heaven on Earth and within each of us there are elements that need to be brought to the table for everyone and everyone needs to come to the table to share in the responsibilities of positive change.

Also there are some laws that need to be changed as they are no longer considered to be a wise or Islamic approach to resolving issues of crime or injustice.

If we want humanity to be more respectful we have to respect them as well and appreciate some choices have been made due to a lack of knowledge and education or training and therefore some punishments do not fit the crime.

If we want hope to exist in the world and within humanity then we must build on the hope that there is already and provide the needed resources and resource material to resolve what ever challenges there are peacefully and respectfully.

So I am not speaking outside of Islam if anything I am speaking from the source of it.

There is hope and it begins with each of us.

Inshallah there will be a greater sorting out into groups and in time Jannah in this Life and Ourselves.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anne Marie,

You must quit calling your own made-up religion Islam, this is nothing but an outright lie.  If you wish to promote your own "religion", by all means, but quit calling it Islam, it is not.

The only thing you are accomplishing is misleading people who might not know better and that is nothing short of a sin.  You say:  "So I am not speaking outside of Islam if anything I am speaking from the source of it."

This is absolutely not true. The source of Islam is Allah, not Anne Marie. Quit calling what you are promoting Islam,  call it what it is - "Anne Marie's very own made-up religion based on her very bad misunderstanding of what Islam is".  To continue to call what you promote 'Islam' is to continue moving yourself down the road of sin. 

There is no "heaven on earth", jannah exists by Allah's will and we get to it only by worshipping Him and pleasing Him.  No one reaches jannah until after their bodily death and only insha'allah!  Quit pleasing Anne Marie and start pleasing Allah, that is the key to jannah.

Peace, ummizba.

Alaikoam Salam

I understand Islam clearly and have Great Faith in what I understand and how it has had such a positive affect on my life.

There is no confusion for me in how I believe and understand Islam and Life.

There is hope and this hope begins with each of us accepting our portion of responsibility in making the world a better place and being the best people we can be.

I am just doing my part as best as I can and Allah willing we will have made difference.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anne I pray for guidence for all those who sincerely follow God's will and who along the path may sin I pray for the forgiveness for all the believers. Anne I cannot sit here and judge you because I don't know you. I have no right to called you a "disbeliever" however you must understand the responses you'll get from other Muslims on this issue. As I have mentioned before when you discuss issues with pluralistic fashion you contradict not only yourself but you also contradict Islamic theology by stating that Islam has parallels of perfection and imperfection that is false.

Anne in my journey in Islam I've found that Islam is a lot of things and that is how I was drawn back to my primordial faith, but we have to understand that there are universal guidelines in Islam. We also have to be aware that there is no "physical" similitude on earth here which resembles the divine. God is One, absolute incorproeal and incomprehensible we cannot therefore make attempts to harmonize this with our physical world using poetry as what you've seem to have done. Anne your attempts I would believe are not totally harmful as I believe your intentions to connect everything is of goodness and of true sincerity but you have to understand that Islam (orthodox Islam) has certain guidelines.

This is perhaps one of the downfalls of the Muslim community since the time of the prophet. Anne I hope you take what I say not negative but as constructive criticism. If you are Baha'i as brother Rami states you are free to discuss your beliefs here but Anee what does become a problem is that if you are stating things in the name of Islam while the general population disagrees. It's good to think "out of the box" but especially with general principles in Islam I would think that's not permissible because these are foundation beliefs that makes Islam simple. Again, let us be poetic in our remembrence of God and how Islam harmonizes the world but let's do so in the right way.

Alaikoam Salam

Open communication and thoughtfulness is my goal in sharing what I believe and understand and mean no disrespect to anyone or their beliefs.

In sharing what I understand and believe and consulting on this it helps reveal further the Truths in Life and Islam.

Each of us experience Life and Islam in a personal way and this experience is an expression of the level of evolution of Life and Islam in our lives.

A concern I have is that some people are left wondering in dispair or angry at themselves and the world for a lack of education and training to resolve their issues in healthy friendly manners.

There is hope and this hope takes participation from each of us in building healthy minds, families and communities.

As for Bahai agreement on what I believe I cannot comment as I do not know what they think about it.

Anne Marie

Assalamu alaikum brother Israfil,

No one has said Anne is not welcome here!  You had best re-read all her posts, that way you can see that what she keeps professing as Islam is most certainly not.  Those who do not know better can easily be led astray by her proclaimations of what is Islam!  Her sincerity is irrelelent, her misleading labels of things she calls Islam is what the issue is.  This is not judgement, this is trying to prevent someone from misleading others.

You say: "my main goal is to put my brothers and sister in the right direction", so, you would have us remain silent while Anne misleads those who don't know any better?  Israfil, it is Anne who is going in the wrong direction, not your brothers and sisters.

Peace, ummziba.

Alaikoam Salam

Brother I lead no one astray I only offer a new way of looking at religion, spirituality and life in a creative and positive manner at least I try to.

All Life and Islam are in constant evolution and progress towards positive change.

May Allah guide us well and keep us having a positive attitude and outlook on the Renewal of Life and Islam.

We can and do make a difference.

Inshallah there will be a great sorting out into groups to resolve all challenges and give people the skills to address whatever issues they are faced with and especially educate them that there are community support agencies and networks that can assist them in their challenges.

Hope for the world begins with each of us accepting responsibility for ourselves and our actions and as I mentioned learning better skills in dealing with these so no one gets hurt or abused in any way.

May we get the counseling we need to turn the tide on violence and ignorance in the world and become better people who care enough to get assistance from counselors and community when we are faced with violence, anger, frustration or other issues.

May Allah Bless you on this Journey.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote: Brother I lead no one astray I only offer a new way of looking at religion, spirituality and life in a creative and positive manner at least I try to. All Life and Islam are in constant evolution and progress towards positive change.

Anne Marie, no one has issue with your "new way of looking at religion", you are free to have your own views - just quit calling it Islam, it is not.  You may very well lead some astray by calling your vision of how religion should be "Islam".

"And so, the parable of those who are bent on denying the truth is that of the beast which hears the shepherd's cry, and hears in it nothing but the sound of a voice and a call.  Deaf are they, and dumb, and blind: for they do not use their reason."  Qur'an 2:171

Peace, ummziba.

Alaikoam Salam

I see no harm in calling my beliefs Islam and I believe that we need a positive shift in thinking about some things we have taken for granted and possibly not completely understood.

In the end a new perspective can renew our Faith in ourselves, others and our Religion.

Inshallah this will be a time of a great sorting out into resolution groups to resolve all our challenges peacefully and with respect for ourselves and other in the process.

Hope begins with each of us.

May Allah Bless us for addressing our issues of being abused, self abusiveness or abusing others and get the counseling and guidance neeeded to make positive changes in our lives doing this is excellent Dawah.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Sister Ummziba first and foremost how you sounded my post were not directed towards you nor towards anyone else here. Also there is nothing wrong with me saying that my purpose is to help guide my bros and sisters in the right direction. The whole remark with that was (if you understood my undertone hopefully) that I take no responsibility nor propagate what Anee was saying. Yes I've told her she is wrong. Yes I highly disagree with the things she saying in the name of Islam. Yes her words about Islam being imperfect are extremely HARAM and unIslamic. Yes these are grounds for excommunication from the Muslim community. She I myself as my own individual judge her according to these? Yes and No.

I can judge her as a non-Muslim in the sense of how she is expressing her views and her arguments backing such views. But should I condemn her in the sense of calling her Kufr and the like etc. No. God is the ultimate judge therefore whatever she says she will appear before her Lord regarding these issues. My remarks were mainly towards myself. It had nothing to do with anyone else her sister so chill out!

amlhabibi2000 wrote: Life and Islam are always evolving and developing better ways of communicating, educating, nurturing and encouraging each of us to be better people and this process is called both Life and Islam.   Islam is not contained souly in books Islam is Life itself and as such both are always in the process of change

It seems you haven't pondered on my posts in page three

amlhabibi2000 wrote: I see no harm in calling my beliefs Islam

mmmmmm..

You've stated that you don't fear allah, islam is imperfect, allah's laws need to be changed, life and islam are the same while contradicting it (read my post on pg 3) - these are not the beliefs of islam, I as a non muslim know that. So I don't know how you can call what you believe in is islam also ??

Alaikoam Salam

I realize that as a people we want to believe that we know everything and that what we believe is perfect.

However as we can see from history there Life and Islam are always being perfected and new and better ways of dealing with issues are revealed on a daily and moment by moment basis.

Becuase we have accepted to a degree our circumstances we sometimes hesitate to accept new ways of handling issues in our lives like getting counseling when we have had issues of abuse, self abuse or being abusive to others ourselves.

It is great Dawah and a fitting way to make Hajj (pilgrimage) to our lives and see where we need assistance and guidance from trained professionals so that the cycle of abuse and violence can be stopped from continuing its ruinous path of distruction.

Though all paths of Islam (Ie all religions and those with none) tell us to be good people it is not clear in the scriptures, surahs etc exactly how to deal with violence in positive and productive ways so there fore yeas Islam can learn new things, it has to if we want to survive as individuals and people.

I have read many of your posts and I understand that you do not agree with my thoughts on Islam and this is okay as I know it takes a while to understand new ideas.

I am not saying throw all of Traditional Islam or any religions out the window just that wer have to encorporate some new laws and education programs so people have the skills and education to face what ever challenges they have to deal with in the average day.

So there there really is nothing to fear unless you fear positive change for some reason.

Having seen and experienced some of the ignorance in Life and Islam as well as other paths of Islam and seen the suffering that has been purpetuated by this ignorance, fear and apthy I am moved to do what I can to assist in clearing up the confusion as best as I can.

Inshallah there will be a greater sorting out of Mankind into resolution and education, training and counseling and consultation groups to resolve issues of family violence, parenting skills, relationship building and mending and anger manageement skills as well as sexual health information training and good conflict resolution skills training.

As I mentioned before hope begins with each of us, so if you are experiencing family violence, abuse of any kind, self abusive behavior or abusing anyone seek out counseling in your community to resolve these issues in a caring and positive way that gives you and everyone dignity.

As I have mentioned I mean no disrespect to Islam in saying that there are some issues that need to be addressed in terms of out dated and impractical laws that only perpetuate the use of violence and do nothing to educate people in healthier choices or give them better problem solving skills.

Education, counseling and consultation are the best justice and the best prevention from people doing crime as I believe if all are treated with dignity and encouraged to Arise Responsibly and Spiritually they will do so and those who do not can have further counseling and therapy to resolve whatever issues they have so they can be more caring towarss themselves and others too.

Whether Islam, Life, The World or we as individuals like it or not we are always learning new ways of doing things better and therefor we must learn these new and better skills so we can bring an end to the expression of violence in our lives, our families, our communities and our Nations once and for all.

There is great hope in Life and Islam and I believe in the ability of all of us to Arise Responsibly and Spiritually especially when we know what this means and how to do it effectively.

May Allah Bless us all on our Journey to a place of no sorrow in this life some call it Heaven and some call it Jannah.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Hmmm..this can be a confusing thread.

I am not sure how counseling is anything radical.. maybe I am missing the boat?? People have always gone for 'counsel' from family, friends, the Iman...

However as we can see from history there Life and Islam are always being perfected and new and better ways of dealing with issues are revealed on a daily and moment by moment basis.

I am not sure Islam is being 'perfected'. When I think of as perfection is Allah. No person is perfect. (Though some are closer than others )  I think that the striving in an individual effort. Are we better at it then people 300 years ago?? People are all so different. This is NOT about Islam but about the person.

You mention alot about 'unhealhy' practices.. by whom and what you are referring to? You mentioned cutting off hands etc.  Those laws are there for a reason. Some people just do not get it. They are unable to see reason etc. One can talk to their blue in the face to these people.. Set guidelines etc. And it does not work. That is a reality. Some people just don't. That is why there are sometimes harsh punishments.

I believe strongly in forgiveness but there is a societal responsibilty as well. Sometimes things can be seen as 'harsh' but that is to help people remember. and in act is does keep people in line. We are all weak in different ways.

Counseling is all nice but it does not always work. Take pedophiles for example. They are all messed up. And they have found it is almost impossible to rehabilitate them. I hope he can save his soul but if he touch a child he deserves something bad happen to him. I teach kids and have nieces and nephews and would pay retribution myself!  and I am not blood thirsty.. the opposite actually.

You call for an end to violence.. that is very noble and frankly it will not happen.  We are too weak. Allah set these rules because of this. Otherwise we would not here to be tested as individuals.

For me I've noticed in the Quran two ways of reaching people (and there are others).. one with the promise of salvation and heaven.. the wreaching of people with love. Then there is another way.  The threat of hell and retribution.  Why is that? Maybe because for some people they need that. The fear or else they would run amock.

I don't claim to understand or any great knowledge but it obvious that we live on a beautiful planet and one that has great violence. Watch the natural world. We are not separate from that. There are many mysteries. But strong rules are there to help people.  Imagine a person who wants to steal but is afraid of retribution.  That stops him from the crime. Yes there is Allah's judgement, but people lose focus. you can prevent a crime and keep people safe. (and help this person's spirit and soul by helping them to not commit a crime.) Helps everyone.

Alaikoam Salam

Thank you for your thoughts on what I shared.

I believe that behaviors such as violence and sexual abuse can be prevented with education and counseling as well as open lines of communication and a healthy community support system so everyone knows where to call or go when they have particular kinds of issues to resolve.

The challenge of the past is that humanity has been working at learning good counseling skills and healthy ways to resolve challenges and conflicts so everyone wins.

Only a percentage of the worlds population has the tools and education and training they need to feel good about who they are and assist them in solving their challenges with dignity and respect they and all of us deserve.

We have reached a time in history when we can call all the world to Arise Responsibly and Spiritually and recieve the education, training and guidance they need to resolve the challenges they are faced with and inspire them to have hope in themselves, the world and others.

This effort will take affirmations of Faith, Trust, Trust and Accepting Responsiblity and Accountability on the part of each of us.

We each have a role to play in the world and to meet these we need excellnce in guidance and the communication skills, the conflict resolution skills and parenting skills, the relationships skills to address all the issues we have.

In short as I mentioned before we need a great sorting out into resolution groups to recieve the education, training and guidance we need to succeed at the challenges life presents  each of us.

In inspiring everyone to take on the challenge of learning new skills and accepting to respect themselves and others by getting the help they need we can create Heaven, Jannah in this life and within ourselves.

Islam and Life are in the constant process of revealing new and better ways to meet the challenges of life and it is not disrespecting Islam to say so.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Alaikoam Salam

As I understand it there is no contradictions in encouraging people to get the education, training, counseling and consultation to ensure they and others will be the best people they can be with good behavior, coping skills, conflict resolution skills that maintain the dignity of themselves and others.  This is what Islam and Life is all about anything less is a waste of precious lives and resources.

The time has arrived for a great sorting out into groups to learn the skills to accomplish personal and world Peace, Jannah in this Life.

For those who have experienced Jannah in their life already then these people need to support and encourage others on their journey.

One day you will understand, Inshallah.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Rejected were the apostles before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those apostles.  From the Qur'an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2 - - #34

But for the Grace of Allah to thee and his Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before): And great is the Grace of Allah unto thee. From the Qur'an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2 - - #113

Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition? From the Qur'an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=45&translator=2 - #45 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=45&translator=2#23 - #23

O All�h, I seek help from You, ask forgiveness from You, and believe in You and praise You for all the good things and am grateful to You and we part and break off with all those who are disobedient to You. O All�h, You alone do we worship and pray exclusively to You and bow before You alone and we hasten eagerly towards You and fear Your severe punishment and hope for Your mercy, for Your severe punishment is surely to be meted out to the disbelievers.

A Salaamu Alaykum,

I haven't done this in a while so I appreciate your patience with me. I have read every posting in this particular forum and would only suggest the following: Islam commands us to speak from authority, from a knowledgeable base, from the conviction that our religion is perfect and that faith in that perfection commands us to submit and this is belief. Islam also commands us to utilize the facility of reason in the pursuit of faith. Reason, being born of personal experience, is not infallible; therefore, imperfection also lies in the pursuit of faith, for faith could be considered the trust of the imperfect in submission to the perfect. I believe in Allah. I trust Islam. I therefore trust that the laws of Allah are just, I trust that His decrees are perfect, I trust that the Qur'an, being the Word of God, is right and I believe that a belief in the changing of God-given decrees as has been suggested is questionable at best, certainly a demonstration of a lack of faith.

If faith is anything, it is submission. If submission is anything it is trust. If trust is anything it is belief. If you believe in anything then believe in Allah � and if you believe, believe the word of God when He says:

He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.  From the Qur�an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=2&translator=2 - - #269

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.  From the Qur�an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=2 - - #7

"And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"  From the Qur�an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=18&translator=2 - #18 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=18&translator=2#68 - #68

Be patient, please. Keep reading, please. Have faith Ma�ShAllah and trust He into whose hands you have put your faith in.

In turning the ills of the world around there is a lot of work to be done and this begins by looking at our attitudes towards many things, like how we treat ourselves, our families, our communities and Nations.

Being mindful may help as well as learning new skills and having confidence that if we are faced with challenges there are safe places with education and training to do so.

The is hope and and as others have said before me it begins with each of us.

Salam Alaikoam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious , The Most Merciful   

(The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).

But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-

Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?

As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,

To him dost thou attend;

Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).

But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,

And with fear (in his heart),

Of him wast thou unmindful.

By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:

Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.

(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,

Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,

(Written) by the hands of scribes-

Honourable and Pious and Just.

From the Qur'an  Chapter 80 verses 1 through 16 of   Surat-ul Abasa ... He Frowned 

       Asalaamu Alaykum,

       While the sincerity of your intentions, the passion of your convictions and the effort of your striving is certainly valid, it would go a long way to your credibility if you prefaced your statements with evidence of more than conjectural opinion. Islam requires it. While intentions are appreciated, convictions are respected and striving is encouraged, opinions without evidence, without scholarship, without the basis of an Islamic argument to back them are without merit. Opinion alone is not enough, it can�t be �

             � And if your opinion is without merit �

Verily, those who dispute about the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, without any authority having come to them, there is nothing else in their breasts except pride (to accept you (Muhammad SAW) as a Messenger of Allah and to obey you). They will never have it (i.e. Prophethood which Allah has bestowed upon you). So seek refuge in Allah (O Muhammad SAW from the arrogants). Verily, it is He Who is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.  

From the Qur�an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=40&translator=5 - - #56       Surat-ul Ghafir � The Forgiver 

Alaikoam Salam

Point well taken, I will work at providing more docuementation as and when I can to support my understanding and beliefs.

Sharing what I understand and believe has made adifference in my life, hopefully others lives as well.

I believe that the ideas presented are clear and promote thoughtfullness and consideration for where one is in their lives right now and if we have issues we need guidance on that assistance can be found in the community.

Attitude has a large part to play in evolution and change and restoring harmony to ourselves, others, community.

There is hope for Jannah in ourselves, our families and communities though it might be a little different than discribed possibly.

May Allah Bless us all on our journey through this life and guide us to excellent teachers and educators so we may become the Best of Messengers in this Life.  Inshallah.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

No offence Anne but you are very good at giving speeches but not so good in answering questions directly.

I believe I have answered the questions within all my posts however I will reveiw your questions again.

Salam Alaikoam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Salam Alaikoam

Angel

I reviewed your questions and i believe i have answered them all.

Islam and Life are the same process and yes both are imperfect as only Allah is perfect.

Islam like all Spiritual paths have room to be worked on and improved.

A Spiritual path that condones cutting off peoples hands or heads, stoning people or whipping people is not abiding by the will of Allah when Education is true justice to say the least!

Yes Islam has need of improvement as do all religions.

There is a great amount of work to do and we need to work on this work as an Ummah, the Ummah of Mankind not split by religion for Life itself is a spiritual path.

If Mohammad PBUH and Jesus PBUH were hockey or football coaches they would want all the team to be the best and the goal would be to have a great game not slaugter each other.

Each of us is a team leader/coach of some sort to ourselves and others that is why we need to guidance and education to be our best person for ourselves, Allah and the World .

We have to work at eliminating bad behavior due to ignorance, apathy and learn better ways to communicatre and get our needs met.

you are a team member of your community and your health and well being is important because if you have bad behavior it affects everyone.

people may not say your a team member but you are, if you are ill because of not caring for yourself then your suffering is sensless though it is a sign of your ignorance, apathy or poor coping skills or the result of self abusing, being abused or being abusive.

imagine if less money and time were spent on the effects of people not caring for themselves was turned around and everyone cared for themselves and there was no really fat people, drug addicted people, alchol addicted people and all ther bad spin offs were turned into healthy peoples, then the money spent on the bad effects could go towards positive community improving things, like free massage therapies and other community infra structures.

Wish i had thought of this sooner, welll I did I guess but forgot about it.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

>>>>Islam and Life are the same process and yes both are imperfect as only Allah is perfect.<<<<

That comment is surely flawed......

Allah says "Today I have perfected a religion for you Al-Islam" Hmmmm now Anne according to your comment Islam is imperfect. If you take the Qur'an as the word of God and perfect being the context of that verse how is the structure of Islam imperfec then? Does that not contradict Allah?

Alaikoam Salam

Interesting, my comment means that Islam and Life both are always in a state of renewal and evolution and there for there is always room for some perfection in these.

If Islam was perfect then there would be no mention of dumping bodies in wells, cutting off hands, stoning people, or whipping people, these may have been acceptable 1400 years ago though they are not acceptable today as true justice is education, counseling, consultation along with a few other things I have mentioned in others posts.

Though on one hand you could say Life and Islam are perfect for testing and training people however both have areas that need improvement.

I do not believe there is anything wrong in saying this as it is the truth unless of course there is a Quran that does not include cutting off the hands of people, stoning them, whipping them, throwing the bodies of the enemies in empty wells.

Islam has great potential as do all religions for positive and progress change and evolution in guiding people on thier choosen spiritual paths.

I love Islam very much and mean no disrespect just stating what I understand and believe.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Alaikoam Salam

We are all Prophets, we all leave a legacy let it be a wonderful one inshallah!

Each of is a follower and a leader of Nations....

What kind of Nation, Family, personal life do you want?

We all want heaven a little closer to home, do we not anything less is a waste of resources and time and prescious lives.

We have to create the kind of world we all can be happy living in.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

There are treasures and gems within the lives of everyone from which to learn how to be good people and thus I believe each person need be recognised as a spiritual teacher regardless of age, ability or infirmity, there is lessons to gbe learned from one and all and if we respect one another a little more each day soon people will learn to respect themselves a little more too at least this is my belief.

Some ignorant people may choose to follow the negative side of the lessons and only good and excellent counslors, teachers can turn them towards good behaviors and the destiny they were meant to have.

We were created Noble and there is no room for digression even though it happens, it can be alieviated by excellent education in healthy boundaries, good communication skills, conflict resolution skills to name a few things.....

I believe in Mankind as the Prophets for this Day and every day to come here after and that with encouragement, good and excellent guidance they/we will arise to our Station and Nobility.

May the World, Our Nations, Our Communities, Our Families and Our own Being empower us to to arise Responsibly and Spiritually and become shining stars or lights to others on this journey to Heaven within and on Earth!

We and the World are worth the effort especially if we want to have resources to feed, house and care for the generations to come over the next ten thousand years.

Masshallah

May everyone be inspired to be their very best and where needed get education and training to be even better!

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi 

Salam Alaikoam

It is time that all Mankind be respected and treated noblely and also behave in a Noble manner towards themselves, others and the world.

There is no wrong in stating as I have.

If it had been done sooner maybe the world would have been a better place sooner.

Inshallah the Earth bares witness and her woes are many and she has spoken and this is her speech through inspiration.

May the sorting out into resolution, education, training, consultation and counseling groups continue.

Mahssallah every soul is worthy of this task, duty and honor.

Even the best of people still work on themselves daily to improve Themselves and the condition of Thier Families, Communities, Nations and World.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Salam Alaikoam

True some people have bad behavior, however I believe if they are inspired to be better people they will be!  Violence, ignorance serve no purpose other than to dehumanize people.

The best course of action for everyone is to arise to their station and educate themselves, their Families, Communities and Nations in being the best, caring, wonderful people they can be, anything less is a waste of people spirit, resources and energy.

Just imagine everyone trained, educated, counseled to be their best and everyone working to make themselves and the world better inspiring Individuals and Nations in what Heaven on Earth can look like and feel like.

War is not heaven.

World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually is.

This arising does not include ignorant behavior like threats or violence of any kind towards anyone or anything.

I hope you were not threatening me Brother!

The first level of Jihad is working on yourself, knowing yourself very true.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Surah Al Kawsar....?

Myself Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi 

AL-KAUTHER (ABUNDANCE, PLENTY)

Total Verses: 3
Revealed At: MAKKA
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau108.html - Maududi's introduction

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

108.001
YUSUFALI: To thee have We granted the Fount (of Abundance).
PICKTHAL: Lo! We have given thee Abundance;
SHAKIR: Surely We have given you Kausar,

108.002
YUSUFALI: Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.
PICKTHAL: So pray unto thy Lord, and sacrifice.
SHAKIR: Therefore pray to your Lord and make a sacrifice.

108.003
YUSUFALI: For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off (from Future Hope).
PICKTHAL: Lo! it is thy insulter (and not thou) who is without posterity.
SHAKIR: Surely your enemy is the one who shall be without posterity,

This article does not preclude revealation to the everyday day person or allowing for the emmediate designation of Prophet, Prophets, Prophetess confered on Mankind.

As all knowledge and all existance is full of revealations.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote:     This article does not preclude revealation to the everyday day person or allowing for the emmediate designation of Prophet, Prophets, Prophetess confered on Mankind. As all knowledge and all existance is full of revealations.   Salam Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Da da da...This article presents what will happen to the persons who astrays from the truth,this means u should search what the truth is in order to ur assumptions...may be you will find urself in more good position..trust to me it worths more than throwing words...if i had proper, i could do it for u...but sometimes u can't catch the past,sorry...

Salam Alaikoam

Brother the truth is We are the Messiah, The Prophets, The Manifestations of Allah, God, The Creator and the People of Spirit a Living Messiah in the Multitudes not One of Us but all of Us!  We are all Messengers of Allah, God, The Creator and we are all equally according to our ability responsible for the care and well being of each other and the World!  Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

This is the truth Brother and the sooner the World accepts this and arises to their station the sooner Peace will come in all levels of Our Lives!

These passages are history in the making, Inshallah Mankind will arise and accept responsibility for themselves and others and improve everyones standard of living, education and access to medical attention and preventative medicine ie fitness programs and healthier foods.

I believe in you and I believe in Mankind!

I believe we can accomplish Heaven within and on Earth within all of us and all the world.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Islam and Life are the same process and yes both are imperfect as only Allah is perfect.   Islam like all Spiritual paths have room to be worked on and improved.   A Spiritual path that condones cutting off peoples hands or heads, stoning people or whipping people is not abiding by the will of Allah when Education is true justice to say the least!   Yes Islam has need of improvement as do all religions.   We were created Noble and there is no room for digression even though it happens, it can be alieviated by excellent education in healthy boundaries, good communication skills, conflict resolution skills to name a few things.....   I believe in Mankind as the Prophets for this Day and every day to come here after and that with encouragement, good and excellent guidance they/we will arise to our Station and Nobility.   May the World, Our Nations, Our Communities, Our Families and Our own Being empower us to to arise Responsibly and Spiritually and become shining stars or lights to others on this journey to Heaven within and on Earth!

 

IN THE NAME OF ALMIGHTY GOD THE MERCIFUL, THE COMPASSIONATE

 

� This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

 

             � From The Qur'�n Al-Maeda (The Table Spread) Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=5&translator=2 - #5 , incept from Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=5&translator=2#3 - #3

 

� The Arabic word Islam means submission and obedience to the will of God. One of its root derivatives is from the Arabic word Salaam which means peace. The religion of Islam is the complete acceptance of the teachings and guidance of God as revealed to His Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him). A Muslim is one who believes in God and strives for total reorganization of his life according to God�s revealed guidance and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. On this basis, A Muslim works towards building a just and moral society. Islam is a religion with an emphasis more in the development of universal ideals, not so much in the way of personality, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism or other religions whose names derive from their initiators. Islam recognizes Muhammad as The Last Prophet, also known as The Seal of The Prophets. It equally recognizes Buddha, Jesus, Moses and many other servants of Allah throughout history as Prophets �

 

             � From the Article Islam at a Glance � Author Unknown.

 

A Salaamu Alaykum,

 

The above Ayat and following article are cited as reminders to myself of what a Muslim believes. The posts are a reminder to us all of what some Muslims may believe. Unfortunate. The posts on this particular thread are disturbing as they are contradictory to Islamic principal. A Muslim would never state most of these posts, at least what I have re-posited here by way of example. It is a testament to a lack of understanding that this is so; ironically claims to profess a reverence of education demonstrate a perhaps innocent lack of it, certainly a virgin approach to it. If it has yet to be demonstrated or taught, Islam requires evidence, proofs, and verification to support the evidence and proofs of one�s reasoning. These posts have a decidedly Christian influence; given my former background I would dare say it is obvious that Christian origins are very much at the heart of these assumptions. This is not necessarily a bad influence, as much the same influence brought me to Islam eleven years ago. I do believe it is unreliable, however, to mirror Christian tenets in an Islamic forum. It demonstrates a lack of reliance on the principles of Islam to make a point and a lack of faith to profess improvement in a religion that Allah Subhana Wa t�Ala says in The Qur'�n is perfect. We need to improve, that much is clear and this is, I believe, the point; but to contradict the Qur'�n with the profession that the religion needs to improve is tantamount to heresy. Submission is the heart and soul of the religion; submission to its principles, its edicts, its teachings is what we were created to do. Accomplishing this achieves the aims of Allah and subsequently our happiness, may Allah be pleased with us.

 

The following websites may help to clarify the position of Islam�s legal system as certain posts seem to have a difference of opinion regarding the principles of Islamic Law.

 

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/moralsystem.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/moralsystem.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/humanrights/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/humanrights/

 

� Islam, in its clear and direct way of expressing truth, has a tremendous amount of appeal for any seeker of knowledge. It is a solution for all of the problems of life. It is a guide towards a better and complete existence glorifying, in all its phases, God, the Almighty Creator and the Merciful Nourisher. Human beings live according to their view of life. It is an unfortunate yet sincere observation that the tragedy which is secular societies fail to connect the different aspects of life. The secular and the religious, the scientific and the spiritual seem to be in conflict. Islam puts an end to this conflict and brings harmony to humanity�s vision of life. A major problem concerning modern man today is racism. Materially advanced nations can send men to the moon, yet cannot stop man from hating and fighting his fellow man. Islam, over the last 1400 years, has shown in practice how racism can be ended. For example, every year, during The Hajj, the Islamic miracle of real unity of all races and nations can be seen in action. To further expound, the family, which is the basic unit of civilization, is disintegrating in secular society. Islam's family system brings into fine equilibrium the rights of man, wife, children and relatives. Islam nourishes unselfishness, generosity and love in a well-organized family system. Islam provides definite guidelines for all peoples to follow in all walks of life. The guidance it gives is comprehensive and includes social, economic, political, moral and spiritual aspects of life. The Qur�an reminds us of the purpose of life on earth, of our duties and obligations towards The Creator, our kith and kin, our community, our fellow human beings and ourselves. Man is given fundamental principles about a purposeful life and then is left with the challenge of human existence so that these high ideals might be put into practice. In Islam, life is a wholesome, integrated unit and not a collection of fragmented, competitive parts. The sacred and the secular are not separate parts of a human being: they are united in the nature of being human.

 

             � From the Article Islam at a Glance � Author Unknown.

 

             I cite this last to remind myself what it means to be Muslim. I pray this is a reminder to you as well.

 

Verily, those who dispute about the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, without any authority having come to them, there is nothing else in their breasts except pride (to accept you (Muhammad SAW) as a Messenger of Allah and to obey you). They will never have it (i.e. Prophethood which Allah has bestowed upon you). So seek refuge in Allah (O Muhammad SAW from the arrogants). Verily, it is He Who is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.  

 

� From the Qur�an Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=40&translator=5 - #40 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=40&translator=5#56 - #56 Surat-ul Ghafir � The Forgiver  

Alaikoam Salam

There is noting wrong in saying Islam or Life needs some attention and work to make the process better for everyone involved.

Yes prayer is great!

Yes Zakat is great!

Yes Dawah is great though the greatest Dawah is being the best person you can be and care for others as you would Allah, for what you do to yourself, others and the World you do to Allah.

Yes Hajj is great though we need a sacride Hajj, Pilgrimage to our own lives, our families, communities and Nations seeing where we need assistance and where to get the assistance or where we can in turn be of assistance to make life better for everyone and inspire everyone to respect themselves more and others too.

If Islam is so wonderful and great then no Muslim would dare behave in a manner any less fitting than their Station as Prophet, Messiah and arising to this Station means we still need places to ask advice, guidance and education, it does not mean we know it all, it means we a prescious gifts to the world each of us and we deserve to be treated with dignity and respect and be dignified and respectful in our own conduct.

At the time Islam came into being it was when Adam and Ev e walked the Earth and ever since then as we can see Islam has been evolving.

Why would anyone want to hold onto laws that permit someone being stoned for a biological condition that causes people to occassionally loss control, I am speaking of total abstinence from sexual pleasure, this behavior causes a person to become an emotionial time bomb if not guided and educated well how to deal with this condition.  It is part of the religion or spiritual practices so why when someone falls would you kill them for being human????  I do not condone promiscuity however total abstience can cause a person to feel attracted to people of the same sex, children or other unuasual behaviors.

I am amazed that Islam has been around for so long and yet there are still people going hungry in your communities and Nations and most importantly left without education and training.  Then when a child is hungry and steals bread you cut of his/her hands and leave them disabled and begging for life, what the heck is justice in this?

You encourage abstience from self pleasuring yet you whip people for promiscuity when you leave them without excellent community resources such as sexual health education and then you cry oh it is the fault of the women.

Islam is far more than you can ever imagine, it also belongs to everyone not just a few who call themselves Muslim.

Islam is Life, Life is Islam and we are all Muslims regardless of what spiritual path we choose, we all belong under the Ummah of Islam and all spiritual/religions or lack of it paths are all expressions of the evolution of Islam.

Islam is always growing, changing and being renewed, this will never stop, for Islam is ever being perfected.

The Universe is Islam and all contained in it is the Ummah of Islam and the very being and body of Allah, His Breath is Our Breath!

Salam

It makes me upset when old school Muslims try to say all of the laws are perfect when they are not.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anee from all the comments you've made I see that you have your own reason and you have every right to have that. I'm not going to sit here and constantly reason with you because I don't want this to "let's play bash Anne" regardless whether yo feel you are right or wrong God will decide. As for the comment that you've made reagrding the "renewl of Islam" perhaps that can be arguable. If your argument on Islam not being perfect because of our practical laws i.e the cutting off of hands as a type of defficiency of our judicial system then you have to take complaints (if any) to God.

Islam is perfect. However how the pracices of Islam are carried out are through imperfect vessels which is us. the structure of the Islamic family is mandated by God it therefore leaves no room for error. If there were to be any renewl of any type it would be through the individuals not our laws. Life like humanity evolves. Islam is a constant principle much like the elliptical orbit of the Sun around the planets.

Alaikoam Salam

Will return in a few mintues to reply, thank you though for accepting I have a right to an opinion.  Masshallah!

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Salam Alaikoam

If Life and Islam were perfect there would be no elevators, electric lights, air planes, cars, computers, etc. for there would be no use for them.

If Life and Islam were perfect no one would have ill health, be obese, depressed, there would be no family violence, sexual abuse, drug and alchol abuse etc.

As I believe if these institutions were perfect which we are a part of them then life would be Heaven on Earth there would be no wars or rumours of wars.

However with evolution and renewal we can learn new practices that empower people better to be their best and rise to their Station asa Noble human being.

There is hope in Islam and we are that hope, all of us not just some of us.

Inshallah the world will continue the great sorting out process through Education, Counseling, Consultation, along with a sacride Hajj, Pilgrimage to all levels of our sacride lives and the lives of Our Families, Our Communities, Our Nations and World and may we all enjoin towards World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually as we are meant to do.

As One Body, One Mind and One Soul.

We are in the being and body of Allah, we are His voice, His Hands, His Feet, His Body for doing, for caring, for sharing, for guiding, for nurturing and most of all for Loving and Respecting one another.

He created Us to Know and Love Him in Ourselves and Others and to do so well we need to be shown Love, Respect, Caring and Compassion and have places to debrief from critical incidents so these do not turn us into Monsters whom even we do not like or love.

Patience change is coming to the world and in time at least we can have a little spot of Heaven within Ourselves, Our Families and Communities and Nations.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Israfil wrote: Islam is perfect. However how the pracices of Islam are carried out are through imperfect vessels which is us.

Asallamu Alaykum,

Well said and too true ... wa Allah kulli shayin qadeer

Annie you keep equating Islam and life as they are the same exact thing and they're not! Although Islam is the life of all that exist it is not life itself. Islam is the principle in which all things exist but life itself is the principle in which living beings exist. What life contains are the imperfections that we see. What Islam contains are the elements in which all things are guided by, be them perfect or imperfect. Try again!

Anne please concentrate on this article,it may make you loose your world but opens a new door to another world which is  called Islam....all we are working for ur happiness,u are not the first person who claimed that we are the prophets,the issue is well explained in that article....

http://www.al-islamforall.org/litre/englitre/finofprp.htm - http://www.al-islamforall.org/litre/englitre/finofprp.htm

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh,

Dear Sister Anne,

   I haven't gone through the 10 pages of this debate but I have gone through a good deal of what has been said. So I don't know if what I'm about to say has been covered or not. Nevertheless, I thought it is worth discussing.

   In your first post, you mentioned that some of the Islamic laws need to be evolved to conform with human right laws. But you have to bare in mind that human right laws have been put down by humans, who are always prone to err. How can anyone prove that these laws are the ultimate perfect laws for mankind?

   There are two kinds of events in life: there are those events that we don't have control over (e.g the sun rising everyday on time) and those events that we can control to some extent (e.g waking up in the morning and going to work). Now the events we can't control take place with perfect percision. The sun always rises on time without fail because God is the only being in control of that. But events we are in control of, often go wrong, and they usually go wrong because we do them our way. If we follow God's instructions to the letter, things would always turn to the best. And when God states that a thief has to have his hand chopped off, then it is because God knows that it is for the best. It might seem harsh for us, but if the punishment wasn't harsh, people would all easily fall into sin. Added to that, if a person carries out a sin after s/he has been warned about the consequences, then s/he asked for the punishment. It is like a pre-made agreement, and this person made his/her choice.

   This brings me to the next point. Even though some laws in Islam seem harsh, there are good reasons behind them. For instance lets look at the penalty for theft. Reasons behind chopping the hand off are:

   1- Repercussions behind theft can be large. Stealing a wallet off someone can cause this person not to be able to buy vital medicine to an ill person for instance causing this ill person to die. This example might be extreme but if it happens once, then no number of thefts that would benefit any number of people in the world can suffice for the death of a person. Thus the punishment has to be extreme to prevent the crime from being done.

   2- As absurd as it may sound, chopping off the hand of a person can be better for him/her than throwing them away in prison, where not only are they a burden on the community that has to provide for them through tax money to feed them, but also they enter as thieves and come out as drug dealers and murderers after what they learn in prison from worse convicts. Thus prison 'graduates' impose a larger threat to society than they did before getting jailed.

   3- By chopping the hand off and sending the thief home, this person is able to provide for his/her family and still carry out his/her duties without fail; even is they miss a hand. They also get to be an active part in the community instead of being a burden.

   4- Because the repercussions of theft can be dire, people with missing hands are a reminder to others who feel the temptation of unnecessary theft. This doesn't mean that any person has the right to disrespect any thief who has been punished, as this thief has paid his dues.

   These reasons are only some of the many reasons behind cutting off a thief's hand. There are many reasons behind every Islamic law. We might not know many of these reasons but as Muslims we have to learn to put our trust in God, the only supreme all-knowing being. When Mohammed declared 'Al yawmo atmamto alaykom deenakom' he meant that he gave us a perfect religion that can be applied to all times without fail. 'Atmamto' means completed, or in other words perfect. Thus we need not add or take away from what we have been given. Allah has sent a religion that would save mankind a lot of trouble of is was followed. If this religion wouldn't have fulfilled man's needs at all times, Allah woud have sent other prophets after Mohammed to suit every era.

Allah also says 'Wa ma arslnak ela rahmatan lel alameen', indicating that Mohammed was sent to all mankind after him; unlike all the other prophets who were sent to their people only. Thus all the laws put by Allah through Islam are binding laws that can't be change. Islam is a package. If we change one part of this package, then we would end up having something that is close to Islam, but definitely isn't Islam. Again every law has its reasons and they are good reasons. Us not recognising all these reasons doesn't deny their existance. Who is endowed with enough wisdom to rectify Allah's laws? Especially that Allah's laws need no rectifying.

   Islam means 'submitting'. But what or who do we submit to? The answer is simple: not love, not what seems as being in the best interest of mankind. It is submitting to Allah, who will give us all the love we need and more and knows what is in the best interest of mankind at all times.

   I don't know if this sheds new light on the issue, but I hope it does help with understanding some aspects of Islam.

   Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh.

Ahmed Nagi

Alaikoam Salam

The only time limbs should be removed is for medical reasons not anti social behavior, education, training, counseling and consultation are the remedie for that and yes Islam has always been evolving and always will inshallah!

There is no justice in ill treatment to remedie a crime or behavior only kind and juste behavior will properly guide people towards better behaviors.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh

   How long does it take to remedy a person through conseling? How many crimes can they commit during counseling? How many counseling cases have actually produced 100% success results? A crime cannot go unpunished. How would the victims of a crime feel when the criminal that has harmed them goes without punishment? How is that fair to them?

   It would be very unfair to give any punishment without prior warning to a certain action, but if a person has been warned and still goes ahead and commits the crime, then it was his/her choice. The simplest example of the effectiveness of this method can be clearly seen in the rates of crime in Saudi Arabia for instance in comaparison with the United States. The USA is known to be a leader in the application of human right laws, and yet has the highest crime rates, divorce rates and broken homes.

   Also keep in mind that God created man. He created every limb that every man owns and He owns every person let alone every limb belonging to every person, and if it is His will or reason that deems this be the treatment of every criminal then who is endowed with enough wisdom to see otherwise? Who has the right to decide otherwise to be whats right? If we doubt Allah's will, then we would be negating his perfection; which would be a huge contradition with the main premise of Islam. And if we refute any of His laws then we are not totally submitting to Him, which again is against one of the main premises of Islam.

   Things are not always what they seem. An action that may seem as being an extreme one can be what is best for mankind overall throughout history. We need to love God, trust him blindly and follow his will, for He is the only perfect being and thus has the right to blind trust.

Salam

Brother so your telling me you are taking the place of Allah and handing out punishment?

Allah is most merciful and we should be too.

True justice is Education, Training, Counseling, Consultation and making a Hajj (Pilgrimage ) to the sacrideness of the life we have and others share and this is a very important journey to correct any failings in ourselves, our families, communities, Nations we and the world are worth the extra effort and consideration in our personal Jihad (Jihad means struggle and the first and most important level is with self).

Beware least you punish more than the crime warrents.

There is little or no justice in violence or perpetuating ignorant behavior.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Salam

I would say that the death rate of women in the middle east is higher than elsewhere in relation to domestic violence and death by self distructive behavior due to experiencing violence from their spouse, relatives or honour killings a practice is against Allah because there is no honour in killing anyone! 

Allah created us to live a long productive life and become educated, trained, counseled and counsulted towards being the best person we can be and care for ourselves, others and the world in a caring, kind and considerated manner anything less than this effort wastes prescious lives, resources and wastes time and energy.

This practice is used to silence women from the bad behavior of their relatives or partners and the men who do this should be imprisoned for life with no visitations or contact from any family, friends or relatives and should be kept in isolation for ten years until he fully repents and accepts he did wrong.

Anne Marie Habibi

Warning the following is just for thought purposes not to be actually done....

Have you ever had the use of only one hand, try tying your hand up in a sling and using only one and then tell me cutting a limb off is just!

Get a friend to throw a rock at your head and when it hits see if you learn how to change your behvior.

Get a friend to flog you once and see if it really educates you how to change your understanding of why you did the behavior you did and see if it tells you new imformation so you can better cope with sexual frustration and learn healthy boundaries and good communication skills from this assault on your body.

Violence teaches us nothing except how to be more aggressive and violent.

Besides for some they may do the behavior just to get killed and end the suffering they are already experiencing from the hands of their husband or partner.

I am not serious about you getting anyone to do those things this was for thought only not to be actually done.

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh.

   Sister, I am not taking the place of God and i would dare not. I am only supporting his commands. You worry about violence against a criminal. Why didn't the criminal worry about violence against his/her victims when the criminal commited the crime? Again if the criminal ends up with a hand cut off, it would only be because he risked it with full knowledge of the consquences. He doesn't get punished by surprise.

   Sedondly, please don't judge Islam by the actions of Muslims. No where in Islam does it say that Muslim men have the right to abuse their women. If Muslim men do that, their women have the right to divorce. If that isn't carried out by law, then this law doesn't follow Islamic rule.

   Thirdly, you say that no one should experience having a limb cut off of being flogged. To that i have to ask: what is this argument based on? A human's opinion? How can we gauaranttee that this opinion serves mankind im the best way possible? Is there any fact behind it? Can we trust a human's opinion over God's knowledge? On the other hand, cutting off the hand of a thief is based on God's command, which is backed up by His perfect knowledge, to which no one can prove wrong. Why should a female abuser be locked up for 10 years? Why not 5? Or 20 for that matter. What is your decision for an adequete punishment based on? I also need to remind you that in order to stop man from commiting a crime, s/he has to be warned by an extreme punishment in order to make them abstinate from doing that crime. And if they go ahead and commit the crime, then the punishment has to be carried out as promised or else everyone else will know that the warning was nothing but a bluff.

   Yes the world has to be brought together through love and hope, but some people prefer the easier more evil way. And these people have to be kept on bay. Education is not always the cure. Bush is well educated. Look at how his education helped the vicitims in Iraq.

   And again I ask you, how is councelling a murdering rapist fair to a family who lost their girl to that criminal? How is councelling a thief fair to a family who lost a member because this thief stole the money for this member's medicine for instance? I personally know of a case where a family member died from sorrow because he had all what he owned stolen off him. How is conselling the thief that commited that crime fair to the family that lost that person, and how is it fair to the person that died from sorrow? Compassion is a great virtue, but don't let it cross out justice.