Asslamualikum,

It seems westren non-muslim thought makes women think that men are the enemy and they have to continously  challange and compete with men. And whilst doing  loose much of her own self in term of femininity and ealy marriage. 

Is this disease also seems to be  gaining ground amongst Some Muslimahs?

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Why does her identity have to be tied up in early marriage?

And what is wrong with not wanting to marry early? No point getting married before she (and he) are mature. the difference between a person when they are 18 and the same person when they are 25 can be huge.

Kim...

jennis mission of hate. Truth is coming out ur showing ur true clours jenni

Actually saudis have probably one of the most literate women in the Muslim world.

Well shariahway.com is from From UK. And Lying is haram. So I suggest you repent.

But maybe you didnt know that the Prophet (peace be upon him was from that part of Arabia. Maybe you have some hate and jelousy (like the jews) for people from that Area.

Allah looks at the taqwa of a girl or boy rather than what degree they did or how much bank balance she has.

We have TAQWA GIRLS

Not I am a meterial girl....U keep ur Madona ideals to your self.

Well keep our Fatima and Aisha ideals for our daughters

http://www.shariahway.com/ - www.shariahway.com

Well kim i am assuming you are non-muslim right ?

Well Girls and boys have needs for each other. For christaisn they can date or sleep with each other not a big deal

For Muslims it is haram. So they should marry to protect themslves from fornication and fullfill their needs.

http://www.shariahway.com/ - www.shariahway.com

yeh and if the west was so literate they would not have to import dr's from poor Muslim countries.

http://www.shariahway.com/ - www.shariahway.com

many Muslims dont want their daughters wearing hijab let alone niqab. Does that make not wearing hijab ok ?

yes 18 is a bit late for a women to marry. SHould be married well before that.

Marry them (and the boys) young keep their minds pure and their bodies healthy

http://www.shariahway.com/ - www.shariahway.com

Brother123 wrote: yeh and if the west was so literate they would not have to import dr's from poor Muslim countries. http://www.shariahway.com/ - www.shariahway.com

Oh Please! We are not importing them! They will not go away!! They are rude, arrogant and nasty and need to be sent home! We do not want them, trust me! They have the same arrogant ideas as you portray! So, please, since you are soooo enlightened, please tell them to all go back home now before they become the capalitists they already are!

Lameese

Brother123 wrote:   yes 18 is a bit late for a women to marry. SHould be married well before that.

Only if the "man" is a paedophile, or some disgusting creep that no sensible, adult woman would touch with a 20-foot barge pole...

Kim...

Kim...

The national health service in britain would not have existed had it not been for Muslim doctors being shipped into Britain.

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Brother.. you are assuming Kim and Jenny 'fornicated' before 18... frankly that is rude. There are MANY women who do not act like that here in the west. Maybe you watch too much TV and movies.  

Seems to me that if you are in a gender segregated society the chances for 'fornificating' before marriage is rather limited.. i have traveled in Moslem areas and people wait to marry until they are older-not before 18, after getting an education. This is true for men and women... If the sexes are segregated then the 'dangers' are far less.

Islam is alot about self-control and self-discipline.  Since men seem to have trouble with this.. less so then women, maybe they should just marry older women like the Prophet (PBUH) did ...

People marry at early ages  in the past or in areas with a lower life expectancy.. Considering that science and knowledge has allowed people to live longer there is less of a need to marry at an early age. There is a direct correlation  between life expectancy and education. It is imperative that both men and women received an education. It lessens the mortality rate. Allah encourages education and knowledge for all.

Muslim doctors being shipped into Britain.

I am not sure doctors are 'shipped' anywhere.. they choose to come to the west. Sometimes for educational, sometimes for personal economic opportunites. You make it sould like they are cattle..

Brother123 wrote: Your stealling all our doctors because you do not have enough intelligent people of your own. And since so many intelligent people converting. If they started to leave for Muslim lands then you would be begging  even more Muslim doctors to coem and save your health service.

so where's your evidence, you can't just claim such a thing without some evidence.

FYI majority of overseas doctors can't practice here anyway if they wanted to. Qualifications of theirs aren't recognised, and in order to be recognised they would have to go back to school. So your ideas that doctors are being shipped here and stealing them is baseless.

what is with all this feminism ??????????

What do you mean by that?

Brother123 wrote: jenni when will your daughters be haveing sex? The national health service in britain would not have existed had it not been for Muslim doctors being shipped into Britain. Your stealling all our doctors because you do not have enough intelligent people of your own. And since so many intelligent people converting. If they started to leave for Muslim lands then you would be begging  even more Muslim doctors to coem and save your health service. And since so many of your preachers have started to convert to Islam. What you going to import. Imams to do sermons at your churches lol http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Well, we could also ask when your 12 year old son will be trying to rape your maids too but that is a little presumtious. But to you that probably is ok, right?

Also, please tell your backwards Doctors to stay where they are, we are sick of them!

And if you are so curious to why they are coming here, ask one. The reply I got was "So, I could make money and not get paid in chickens."

You need a little more education and experience in life and a little less mouth.

Lameese

Brother123 wrote: yes 18 is a bit late for a women to marry. SHould be married well before that. Marry them (and the boys) young keep their minds pure and their bodies healthy

So, to clarify, are you telling us that you have a thing for little girls?

i mean theres no place for feminism in islam

You are right Kim. Remember, Islam changed all this old way of thinking so that women had just as much rights as men. But if she chooses to go with CULTURE and not Islam then that is her right. But honestly she cannot change culture so she is a victim of it.

Lameese

Lemeese women get less inhertance than men. After this will you leave Islam? becase it doesnt agree with your femanism

Your calling Muslim doctors backwards and your kaffir doctors as forward.

More like kufr is backwards into jahilia. So its your kaffir dr's who are backward.

Look at your president bush cant talks like an illitrate and hes ur president lol

Prophet saw married aisha when she was very young and he very old. are you against the prophet Lameeze.

Have you come into Islam fully or just half harted

Prophet (peace be upon him) wnated women to bear lot of children so that his ummah will be the largest on day of judgement,

So we will will follow Islam of teh prophet and not of the westren culturedlly influence (2,5 children lol).

You sisters have coem ing to Islam and trying to impose your westren cultural Islam .

We will take the islam of the prophet you take what ever you wnat

Hyfsa it has been like a cattle market. Especially in the uk, Now they shipping in nurses from poor countries into uk.

Lemeese ur say ur Muslim but  you wana get rid of Muslism from your country. Seems your loyalitys are with the kuffar still and agaisnt the Muslims.

You want to be called a sister but your attitude is against islamic brother/sisterhood.

And then you talk about islam  lol

Brother123 wrote: Lemeese women get less inhertance than men. After this will you leave Islam? becase it doesnt agree with your femanism

You really are hysterical! Actually, everything was mine before I got married, my husband walked into everything. So, I get to decide who to give what to and my husband agrees to this. So, your version of what should and should not be is not really a reality always.

Brother123 wrote: Prophet saw married aisha when she was very young and he very old. are you against the prophet Lameeze. Have you come into Islam fully or just half harted

We do not live in that time now, do we? If you have a thing for children that is between you and Allah and frankley I do not care to hear about it. You and people like you is what keeps Islam down and what gives Islam a bad name!

Lameese

Brother123 wrote: Prophet (peace be upon him) wnated women to bear lot of children so that his ummah will be the largest on day of judgement, So we will will follow Islam of teh prophet and not of the westren culturedlly influence (2,5 children lol). You sisters have coem ing to Islam and trying to impose your westren cultural Islam . We will take the islam of the prophet you take what ever you wnat

I think you follow your own brand of what Islam should be........of course I do not think you have the capability to realize this.

  my islam is following the quran and sunna if thats different from you i guess yea its "my islam"

Which Islam - yours? I mean, if you want to be a door mat and a slave, then good on you.

^thats sounds a little ignorant to me i mean a doormat who said anything about that ????????

I guess it really depends on one's idea of 'feminism'. 

One has to look at the culture of course. Here in the US women WERE 2nd class citizens. We did not have the right to divorce, right to vote etc. People worked to change that. Yes other things went wrong, but people need to take into account hstory is different for different people. Women were not appreciated and treated like children up until recently.

Did not the prophets also do this?  Is it not common knowledge that women's lives in Arabia before the Prophet (PBUH) were really in a bad position?

The Quran makes many references to the rights of women. This may contribute to why more women are becoming Moslems then men.. just maybe

I have no issues with general gender roles for orgaizational reasons. But I don't exercise and do physical things to be "like a man', I do them because it is enjoyable. I like feeling healthy. Everything must have its boundaries as a society to be whole. But men and women are all different.  What is defined by 'feminine'  by one person is NOT the same as others.  We could argue forever what feminine is. Frankly some men like to feel 'in charge' and others really have no issue with women who take more responsibilty.

Frankly with a lot of women they 'act' helpless to control men. They are not helpless. It is called passive control. Some do it to not 'lose their man'. Others do it because its how they are as a person.. I've seen men and women try and control another person to the point it is frankly abuse and its unhealthy.

Is 'feminine' about how you look? How you dress? We want women to be wholesome and natural,  but pretty too. Some men and women like alot of make-up, others do not. We want them to be the best wife and mother.. what is that.. each of us defines it differently.

First of all Mr Islamicity moderator. I dont recall saying to her she has done zina as i know the punishment for that.

secoundly when i said children should be married before 18 say at 14 then she claimed thats was paodphilia. You didnt find anything wrong in that. Demostrates either your  extreme lack of knowledge of Islam or your lack of love of the Sunnah. Why do i say lack of love for the sunanh. because the prophet saw encouraged girls and boys to get married at a very young age. So much that He even  had  married a 14 yr old boy get married. So when she is attacking me she is atatcking the Prophet saw. yet your love for this sister is far greater than your love for the Prophet saw.

And we know what the khalifah Umar did to the man who refused teh judgement of the Prophet saw. He choped his head of and even Allah sent down verses appoving Umars action.

 Under the Khailafh of Umar What would be the lot of  the  Islamicity moderators for allowing the sunnah of the prophet saw to be blaphemed in such a way and even threatening the ones who talk about this sunnah,

Sister hayfa nothing wrong with excersise at home. infact it should be done to keep healthy and look good for the husband.

But the kaffirs when they took femanists as their way to a better society, they went from one one extreme to the other extreme.Just like westren society kaffisr wnet form  no divorce to no zina being ok.

We cannot approve of of either of these extremes.

Just as we cant approve or accept values  of kaffir male shuvanism we cant acccept values of kaffir femanism

So for those who have  grown up in such a society he/she has to be careful that what she was brought up with is not against her deen.

Some times a sister converts to Islam and she see something similat in Islam and starts to reject it. (not saying you).

Problem sometimes occurs when poeple do not tell her what she is doing or saying is wrong so she remains in error and leads others  even into error.

 And as we can see from some of the other poeples posts here that they dislikeed men telling them what to do in jahilai and now in Islam they dislike men telling them about Islam. Such poeple will always have a chip on their shoulder about men even after converting and they start to  give the rest of the converts a bad name. Then no one accept green card holders etc 

Even look at it from a mothers point of view. Islam requires a wife to be obedient to her husband unless he says disobey Allah, do something haram.

If the sisters  has this kuffar attitute "no man can tell me what to do" then you have another sister who says Islam reuires me to obey my hsuband unless he tellls me to do some thing haram.

Whch wife  would a muslim mother choose for her son.

And we know from hadith that the majority of women in hellfire will be women, not becase teyhy are women but becase these particular women do not obey thier husbands and are ungrateful to their husbands.

So the issue of poeple who converted geting rid of femanist ideas is not a light issue. It can be the diffrence of them going into the hellfire or going into heaven.

its asr time now but maybe anotehr day i will write this is more detail or provide a link.

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

So for those who have  grown up in such a society he/she has to be careful that what she was brought up with is not against her deen.

And what is your society? This can be said of yours as well..

And what is anyone's definition of feminisim? How you define it may be different then mine.

What about cultural maichismo... I have been to Islamic places.. you can meet all types of men, some who do not accept the inherent value of women. The right to be educated, the right to be of value as a human being. This is often tied into economics more then anything. But facing men who think that women are dumb, weak or incapable is cultural. You find me a place where it says this in any Quran or Sunnah?  The Quran and Sunnah addresses this in many places- the rights of women. Why did it have to do so? Because some men did not and still do not.  

I had a dialgue with someone from your web site. He says its important for women to know Quran and the women knew it better then men. You'd think the men ought to know it just as well since both genders are responsible..and men need  to know their duties, less they be corrupted by traditional cultural values.

Allah made all of us.. even those of use not born where you think is appropriate. Allah made the Native American peoples, the Buddhists, the traditional religious peoples in Africa, the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus, etc. You may not understand their way of life, but they are human being nonetheless. Would the Prophet (PBUH) treat others as you have? Accusing all non-Moslems as terrible and sinners. You have never met them! Allah asks us to repect life and no be egotistical. And respecting what Allah has created goes along way.

Maybe the west in your eyes 'went to far'. MAybe so. But for what you represent to be an alternative, attacking them is not the best way to go about being a positive role model. What you demonstrate is a lack of compassion, humbleness, friendliness, and decency. 

I remember when I visited A Moslem country. (And let me tell you, there is pornography, drinking, and other sins there too.)The people welcomed me without pre-judging me. They led by example of kindness, consideration and humbleness. I am not saying you have to agree with people and their actions but look into who they are as a person and see that yes people may be messed up but they still are just people.

I can appreciate that you come from a different place then I. Your family is different then mine. Can I relate to your life? No.  Nor can you probably mine. But a dialogue helps promote understanding and greater insights. I learned alot from my Moslem friends around the globe and actually they learned that not all people here hate Moslems.

My friend calls nonMoslems "lost sheep'.  Consider yourself lucky that you are not living in darkness. You have been giving a blessing by Allah.. Bes to use it wisely.

Jenni if you have a problem with the word obediance. Then please take up with the prophet peace be upon him not me.

If you do not like what he said then your problem with with him.

And we will see what the outcome will be when Allah judges who is corrcet you or the Prophet.

As far as i am concerned i love the messenger of Allah with all my heart and i love every word he said. I am happy with what He said.

Those who are not happy with what he said or ordered then they can challange him in the hereafter.

and for those brothers and sisters who love want Allah to be pleased with them read this (if you want..i cant force poeple to love the prophet.  )...

Allah says:

Indeed Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Quran), and purifying them (from sins by their following him), and instructing them (in) the Book (the Quran) and Al­Hikmah [the wisdom and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW (i.e. his legal ways, statements, acts of worship, etc.)], while before that they had been in manifest error.(3:164)

Allah says to His Messenger(SAW)

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3:31)

Allah also says in Surah Al-Hashr

....And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. (59:7)

Again Allah says:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.(4:59)

A Muslim has to show total obediance to the Prophet otherwise he or she will have no faith

And Allah says:

But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

In the next verse Allah again tells his Messenger

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbeliever's(3:32)

These verses clearly indicate that disobedient to either Allah or His Messenger or both takes one out of Islam.Therefore one has to make shure that they are obediant to Allah and His Messenger.

As for thoese who do not wish to obey the commands of the Prophet peace be upon him such as obeying the husband, treating the wife with kindness then i am free from them and the true muslims are free from them.

We can only advice to an extend such people. If they dont wish to follow the above commadments then Allah then they are the loosers.

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Her we have a clasic case of two reaons were why most of the inhabitants of hell will be women

One is disobediance  of the husband.

As  jenni and lemmese seem to be advocating. Those who wnat to be disobedinat to tehir hsubands all we can do is laugh.

Secound case is being ungrateful to their husbands.

had i said the men use dto be more learned in the Quran. hayfa would have said see how bad u muslim men are you dot let women be educated.  But because i said the direct opposite now she is still not happy. So either way i loose.

And this secound weekness that women have accoring to our Prophet saw in that they are ungarteful to their husbands. The husband works  hard to provide for her she will say u never did anything for me.

So for those sisters who really do want to avoid the hellfire they need to be  make sure they dont fall into these two things. And you should know the reason why you are obedinate is to please ultimnatelly Allah. If the hsuband doesnt give you your righst then should you do in kind? if the hsuband goes to hell for not giveing you your rights do you wnat to go to hell for being disobedinate?

In another comment one of these 3 femanist  was the hated muslim men telling them they shoudl wera hijab,

The beauty of Islam is that the true  Muslim men have gheerah for their wives and for the Sisters in Islam. When some one tells you not to do haram and to do good one should be grateful. 

If some  is going into a burning house and some man grabs her because he knows she will be harmed and possibbly die in the house that is totaly engulfed in fire. Should she not be grateful to the man.

 What if the same man said dopy women and laughed just to see her jumping into the fire. Should she say what a wonderful man he didnt tell me what to do. 

or say both men are there together. One saying dont go there it will harm you and she saying you are a man why u men always telling us what to do. And the secound kind gentel man smiles to her and says yes your right. Dont let no man tell you what to do.

 The same case is with say when soem true muslim brothesr tell a women wera hijab for not weraing it will harm you and may put u in the fire .

And there are other  say why tell her she will only insult you. let her roast in hell.

Or even say yes u are right you shoulnt let men tell you what to wear how dare they (becase he wnts the pleasure of seing her beauty

femanist women lack common sense compared to the non femanist women.

Their attitude is if the man i (by not giveing the women her rights)  disobedinat to Allah then why shouldnt i be disobedinat to Allah (by being disobedinate to my husband).

And not only are they harmful for themslves they are harmful for the Iman of other brotehsr and sisters. They are like achild plating with matches in a house as their ability to reson is less than a childs but their ability to type or speak is alos like the childs ability to strike a match and light a fire. And the child she burns her self and the whole family sleeping  in the house.

They really lacks any common sense. As we have seen from the posts of these 3 poor sisters and it will be impossible to reason with them.

(now can i please get back to my own forum i just came on this to relax lol) 

  http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Jenni,

I think you were right when you said just to ignore him. My husband says that this person is either 12-14 years old or is very young and has certianly never been married.

And I agree with you about some men wanting to be married to someone that is their equal. It says in the Qur'an to marry someone that is basically educated because this is who will teach your children. Of course our Brother here leaves out the part of Islam he chooses to forget. When my husband and I married, he said that he loved me because I have a strong mind and personality. He also said he did not want to marry someone that could not hold her own opinion but had to ask him how do do everything, incuding how to think. He said for him, that would be like having a child.

I think Borther chooses to forget that Islam freed women and gave them rights. The way Brother translates everything is that a woman is the "dog" and needs to just be there to obey. Sad for him and even worse for his future wife.........

jenni I dont have dislike for women. But you sure have dislike for the Sunnah of the Prophet peace be upon him.

Well Leemse  your husband obviously doesnt how how to raise a family  and coulnt come out with an argument  as he knows your beaten.

We give men and women the rights that Allah gave them not some made up femanist rights.

And i have seen the fate of husbands like yours who will make even the haram as halal for their semi-convert wife. Who enters the deen looking for something else not teh actual deen.

Then she leaves him and takes the kids and reverts ack to kufr because she never enter completly into Islam just took the bits she liked and twisted the bits she didnt like of islam.

This is what happned to a brother whose wife had same views to yours as to what she wanted Islam to be like not what islam is.

Kicked him out of his hope, kept the kids, took of her hijab and Allahu alim if shes Muslim or not.  Lost his imaan  for her, now lost his kids too. InshaAllah your husband can enjoy the same fate for changing Islam to make  U  happy.

Just a matter of time when you turn on your heals. No matter how much your husband or islamicity change islam for you. It will not be enough,

Brother123, if I had not been educated and able to work, my husband and I would not have anything.  My husband, our main bread winner, was hurt at work.  For 3 months, I carried the 6' 300lb man up and down a flight of stairs to go to the bathroom and bathe.  I worked 40+ hours, rushed home over my lunches to make sure he was okay and then returned to work.  I came home exhausted and took care of him.  I paid the bills, cleaned the house, drove him to the doctor.  Even now, without my income we could not survive.  It is not a matter of obedience vs disobedience.  Or even feminism.  It is a matter of survival of many families.  Part of the reason there is so much poverty in foreign countries is the lack of women able to contribute to the economy.  In Afganistan, if a woman lost her husband under the Taliban, her only choice was to leave her house and go beg for charity.  Or send her children off to work.

Also, as for the 14 year old question.  I worked in a facility that treated victims of abuse, male and female.  Girls at 14, and I stress girls, have not matured mentally, emotionally or physically by the age of 14.  Getting pregnant and giving birth is just dangerous for a girl of that age.  Infant and mother mortality is much higher.  Also, she is not capable of dealing with the emotional stress, nor has she developed her own identity and therefore is hindered in the ability to encourage the development of her children.

But, who are you suggesting she marry?  An equally immature young boy of 16?  Or an adult man of 30?  If its the latter, then that creates many more problems as there is a stark difference in development levels.  A muslim man is to not harm his wife and only take her in righteousness.  How can he say he is doing that if by being with her physically, he puts her life and health in danger?  Or even her emotional and mental well being?  And if you think she should marry the 16 year old?  Then how is he mature enough to establish a strong household in faith and earn the kind of living to support his wife and children?  There are far more issues to think about that, the longer you wait the more likely sin happens.  In my own church, the girls do not have sex before marriage and they marry at around 18-22.  They are educated and dedicated mothers and wives.  It is not the length of time, but the time put in by the parents that matters in a young woman deciding not to destroy her life with premarital relations and drugs and alcohol. 

Besides, the advantages of an educated mother far outway a mother with no education.  She can help her children with their homework, read them the Quran, teach them about history and science.  She can vote for leaders that will continue to make the world a better place and she can have a chance if fate takes her husband from her. 

Perhaps if you're mother had been more educated, you would be in a better position to understand the world around you.

Brother123 wrote: jenni I dont have dislike for women. But you sure have dislike for the Sunnah of the Prophet peace be upon him. Well Leemse  your husband obviously doesnt how how to raise a family  and coulnt come out with an argument  as he knows your beaten. We give men and women the rights that Allah gave them not some made up femanist rights. And i have seen the fate of husbands like yours who will make even the haram as halal for their semi-convert wife. Who enters the deen looking for something else not teh actual deen. Then she leaves him and takes the kids and reverts ack to kufr because she never enter completly into Islam just took the bits she liked and twisted the bits she didnt like of islam. This is what happned to a brother whose wife had same views to yours as to what she wanted Islam to be like not what islam is. Kicked him out of his hope, kept the kids, took of her hijab and Allahu alim if shes Muslim or not.  Lost his imaan  for her, now lost his kids too. InshaAllah your husband can enjoy the same fate for changing Islam to make  U  happy. Just a matter of time when you turn on your heals. No matter how much your husband or islamicity change islam for you. It will not be enough,

Number one do not call me a revert again! Number too my husband is highly educated and so was his mother, and so is mine. Thank God!  You want to use the Qur'an for your purposes to spead your version in Islam. Women have rights in Islam wether you think they should or not! Also, you are all into culture and yourself until I think you are majnoon!

I do believe you have a dislike for women and I do feel sorry for whoever marries you. It seems to me that you are not even educated and do not care to be.  Insha Allah, you change your ways before your own ego eats you alive.

And for your information, I also carried this household for 2 years and did it alone.  Maybe your friend was like you, uneducated and refusing to let his wife have her Islamic rights. Maybe that is why he lost everything! Maybe it was him that did not follow Qur'an.

Kim you are right!  Choice is what makes your rights! With this child, he does not believe a woman should have a choice. He will have to answer for a lot on the day of judgement!

Lameese

Kim I agreed all what you've said until you said this:

>>Woman can choose to wear whatever they want.<<

If God has decreed in the Qur'an that a woman must appear modestyly wearing clothing that reveals her curveture i.e bathing suit, short skirt etc is definitely prohibited. The reason? It is not oppression but protection of hereself and those who are in her presence. If a woman wears skimpy clothing in a house of worship and especially if she is prostrating what others "may see maybe inappropriate. I assume this applies to not just Muslims but to Jews and Christian faiths as well as others as well. There is no "whatever you want stuff" not even for men. So Kim with all you've said I agree except for this one.

Angela .Did i say women cant work or be educated or is it your femanist anger towrds men and some islamic principles that makes you speak without common sense.

Do you think you are a prophetess or soemthing ?

Prophet saw even married young and old women and the sahabah were encouraged to marrying younger females.

This is the problem with some convert sisters they speak about islam without knowledge and condem islamic values.

When you critise things i may have said (as you attribute things to me which i havent said. thus lying doesnt seem to be a problem with your moral values) you are critsinsg thinsg atht are islamic and you are critising  and insulting the prophet.

lameese so what if your husband is highly educared or his mommy or u. many of the great scientists did not ahve common sense. How many of them did istinja. How many made sure tehir clotsh were free of urine. Educataion does not mean you have common sense or know what is right and what is wrong. As is shown in cases of Eistein , plato and others  and their education level was far greater than yours.

The Prophet could not read or write. Some ones secular  education does not make him know what is good or bad. Infact as it shows in ur case it is used for purposes of showing of and in your cases harams you because makes you feel superior and arrogent and commit minor shirk.

WIth all your education and your husbands you could not even win and argument  small Muslim child or even some one who does not have an education. I do have a science degree but science degree doesnt amke me know what is right and wrong . Its my knowledge of Quran and SUnnah that tells me what is wright and wrong.

Soem of my friends could not pass their high school no matter how many times they tried. Yet they have more common sence than my professors at university who reject Islam.

And it make sthem better human beings than these professors because they believe in the one who created them.

Clearly shows you 3 sisters judge what is wright and wrong from a  un- Islamic perspective and you wnat to seek attention through how much secular schooling you have had.

You will be asked if what you said was in accordance with Islam or against islam. Many of the things you 3 have said are the opposite of what the Prophet said. And seems every day you seem dig your self deeper into heresy.

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Kim the punishment for those who leave Islam is execution. So a Muslim women can not choose what to follow.

And when you say men can choose to be non-violent you also mena men can choose to be violent.

Well in Islam men can not choose to be violent. Maybe in christianity they can choose to be violent but in Islam it is haram for Muslim men to hit a women on her face.

Your Christian missionary activites do not work :P But it give sus an indication of your how you works. You know you can not convert Muslims  to Christinaity so you come out with feeble attempts to try and convince Muslims not to follow Islam. You continure in your lost cause. Ever ask your self why no one wants to convert to christianity?

WHnever Christains come out with new feeble ways to divert Muslims away form Islam. It just makes poeple like me more detremined and do more dawah. Which means more practising Muslims and more Christians converts to Islam.

Well  muslims need to encouragements to work hard for Islam.  What ever you do you looose lol

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

lol! Brother123, you are unbelievable!!

You think you know everything, even down to what Kim believes when she hasn't meantioned what religion or faith she follows ?!

See you make things up when you do not have the facts also like what you said about lameese's husband! you got to know her husband quite well from those few words didn't ya

Many of the things you 3 have said are the opposite of what the Prophet said. And seems every day you seem dig your self deeper into heresy.

Really!!, where are they wrong? how about backing up what these sisters have said with evidence from the quran and hadith. And by the way the quran is not what the Prophet has said BUT Allah/God has said!

Did God give rights to women ? and is exercising these rights a right also for women ? if that is acting feminism, then so be it!

I think you need to learn especial in the western or should I say in kaffir sense what feminism is today, it is not all about taking off your bras and burning them infact its not even that these days!

So go and re learn what feminism is all about both islamically and non islamically! 

Israfil wrote: Kim I agreed all what you've said until you said this: >>Woman can choose to wear whatever they want.<< If God has decreed in the Qur'an that a woman must appear modestyly wearing clothing that reveals her curveture i.e bathing suit, short skirt etc is definitely prohibited. The reason? It is not oppression but protection of hereself and those who are in her presence. If a woman wears skimpy clothing in a house of worship and especially if she is prostrating what others "may see maybe inappropriate. I assume this applies to not just Muslims but to Jews and Christian faiths as well as others as well. There is no "whatever you want stuff" not even for men. So Kim with all you've said I agree except for this one.

Well it was Kims version  

The reason? It is not oppression but protection of hereself and those who are in her presence

somewhat disagree with this but that is for another thread.

Brother, I did not attribute a false statement.  I asked if you wanted the young girl married to an older man or a younger man.  I said nothing against the Prophet.  His wife Aisha was very young but he lived in 600 AD.  In those days, the life expectancy was much shorter and children had to grow up much faster, physcially and mentally.  But there was also a much, much, much higher rate of infant/mother mortality.  I am not judging the early marriage on basis of religion, but of simple truth in medical fact.  Where some girls would be mature mentally at 14, physically they would be at risk.  And very few would be mature enough. 

I do not HATE men.  My husband is a priest and we are very happy together.  He is the spiritual head of my house and I have my duties as his wife.  But, you come in here and start telling women they are unfaithful and sinful because they don't follow your interpretation of Islam.  Are you an Imam?  Who gives you the authority to make the judgements that you are making?  Or authorizes the teachings your are proclaiming?  Don't say the Quran, because their are very learned scholars here at Islamicity who have posted in complete contrary to what you've posted on your website. 

WIth all your education and your husbands you could not even win and argument  small Muslim child or even some one who does not have an education. I do have a science degree but science degree doesnt amke me know what is right and wrong . Its my knowledge of Quran and SUnnah that tells me what is wright and wrong.

Depends on the arguement.  Frankly, what I'm most upset here, is you seem to open up with insults instead of actually arguements of fact or surahs supporting your words.  The other islamic scholars here often quote directly from the Holy Quran to support their arguements.  You continue to argue in ignorance.  You obviously know very little about true Christians or women of faith in Western countries.  You know very little about real marriages, even ones where women give their husbands respect and love.  A woman is a support for her husband.  She bares his burdens and shares his trials.  A womans life is one of many facets.  Men have it easy.  Who are you to know what is feminine and what is not.  A woman's job is to care for her family in any way she can.  This sometimes requires that she step away from traditional roles.  This is not feminism, this is the struggles women must go through.  Truth is, there are far fewer men out there these days who have the responsibility and faith.  They leave their wives with nothing, moving on to younger wives or women are forced to leave due to abuse or addiction.  Should a Muslimah stay with her husband if he is committing haram acts?  Or should she leave and raise her children as proper muslims?  You have a very narrow view on what a woman should and should not be.  You accuse Jenni and the other Muslimah's here of being unislamic and make derogatory statements about Jenni's daughters.  Well, here's my response to that.....

1. [24.4] And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
2. [24.12] Why did not the believing men and the believing women, when you heard it, think well of their own people, and say: This is an evident falsehood?
3. [24.23] Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

So your saying the problem is with the islamicity so caleld scholars?

Are you learning to make the haram as halal and vice versa from the islamicity so called scholars?

Well we have been told that a day will come when peopel will make what is haram as halal and vice versa.

Islam is for all times. Is our Husband a preist? what he is not Muslim?

Are you Muslim?

If not. Then who are you to teach us about Islam?

If you are Muslim and your husband is non-muslim. Then a Muslimah cannot be married to a non-muslim man,

And having intimacy would be zina.

From your other post it seem you are a mormon. Hmm so you come here to give trick Muslims. That if you can not convert them to christainity . You will try to get them away form the tecahings of Islam.

No, I am here to learn more about Islam.  I am Mormon, and if you knew anything about my faith you would understand that of all the Christian faiths, we are the closest in mindset to the Muslims.  I am not here to convert, one cannot convert another.  Conversion is a personal thing that comes from ones personal relationship with God and in their own heart.  I am also not here to "teach" others about their own faith, but I do take offense when a hypocrite rears his ugly head and starts making claims of which he has no knowledge.  You come in here and malign western women, but you do not know us.  You know what TV and magazines would have you believe.  You do not understand that there are many women who reject the images that you seem so desperate to label us with.  I promised to love, honor and cherish my husband, forsaking all others.  I honor my marriage vows with veracity and diligence.  I will teach my daughters and sons to save themselves for their spouses and to be married to faithful and obedient servants of God.  You talk of halal and haram, but yet you still have not posted arguements filled with fact and quotes.  You instead attack me as a non-muslim.  I would rather you open that Holy book in your lap and defend your ideas.  You can twist my words and argue that I know little of your faith.  In the latter, you would be correct, but in the former you are only showing your own ignorance.  What I find funny, you come here and reject the words of your fellow muslims and yet....they have rejected what you are teaching?  So who is right, the many or the one????  Who are you to say that these teachers and scholars are twisting the Quran?  Islam has no priesthood that I know of, so you cannot claim to have higher authority than the next and yet they show their knowledge of the Quran through their well written and educated forums while you break down to insults and instead of backing up your claims with scripture and doctrine attack the very person that voices opposition to your point of view.  If you want to be taken seriously, don't attack me as a Mormon, defend your point of view with scripture.  Then the men and women here can counter with their own arguements for and against your point of view.  Or are you unequal to the task? 

Angela 

Kim we are awake. But when are you non-muslims going to wake up?

Open your eyes. God gave you cloths to cover up and not walk naked or half naked.

According to the Quran the One who believes in islam is not equal to the one who disblieves in Islam.   The Muslimah is far superior because she believes in Islam. So convert to Islam and you can have that privalage of belonging to the best Ummah.

http://www.shariahway.com/ -  

Angela Christians are always out there to convert. Even in abu ghraib were  they torture Muslims  to Islam.

You know angela. Do you believe in christianity with conviction or doubt? Do you believe that if you drank posen the bible would save you? If you believe with conviction then you would have no hesitation in drinking the poison. Mojority of christians are not convinced by their religion. Thats why they replace your christian laws with democratic laws. because you think of christianity as a semi myth. You do not know if its true or false. So you can not trust it enough to derive laws from it.

http://www.shariahway.com/ - www.shariahway.com

Brother123 wrote: Kim we are awake. But when are you non-muslims going to wake up? Open your eyes. God gave you cloths to cover up and not walk naked or half naked. According to the Quran the One who believes in islam is not equal to the one who disblieves in Islam.   The Muslimah is far superior because she believes in Islam. So convert to Islam and you can have that privalage of belonging to the best Ummah. http://www.shariahway.com/ -   Angela Christians are always out there to convert. Even in abu ghraib were  they torture Muslims  to Islam. You know angela. Do you believe in christianity with conviction or doubt? Do you believe that if you drank posen the bible would save you? If you believe with conviction then you would have no hesitation in drinking the poison. Mojority of christians are not convinced by their religion. Thats why they replace your christian laws with democratic laws. because you think of christianity as a semi myth. You do not know if its true or false. So you can not trust it enough to derive laws from it. http://www.shariahway.com/ - www.shariahway.com

Where the hell do you get that the Bible would heal me if I drank poison?  The Bible is a book printed on paper.  The power of God does not rest in the paper and ink....only his words and commandments.  My scriptures tell me not to take toxins into my body.  I am forbidden to drink alcohol or smoke or do drugs.  Then why pray tell would I believe that a book would cure me of poison?  You're ignorance is only being proven time and time again.  My faith is in God, not in magic items and sorcery.  God does not help someone who is just being plan stupid and drinking poison is just plain stupid. 

You still haven't accepted my challenge?  Instead more insults and false accusations?  Hmmmm, I thought you said I couldn't win an arguement with a small child. 

Proverbs 23:9  Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

[12.22] And when he had attained his maturity, We gave him wisdom and knowledge: and thus do We reward those who do good.

There are many wonderful passages in all of God's scriptures.  But one must show understanding in order to show wisdom. 

Angela,

I think he is talking about when handeling poisionus snakes? Remember? Something about if they bite you the Lord will heal you. At least that is what I think the current RANT is about.

Lameese

Brother123 wrote: Angela Christians are always out there to convert. Even in abu ghraib were  they torture Muslims  to Islam.

I wonder if the "Muslims" that tortured and cut off the head of that American worker in Iraq tried to convert him to Islam as they were filiming him having his head cut off.

Also, I wonder if the "Muslims" that tortured and killed that female relief worker that had been in Iraq for years tried to convert her before murdering her. Oh yea, and the other nationalities they killed. Do you think they told them how their version of "Islam" was the best out there before they tortured and killed them?

Just as those people were not true Muslims, neither were the workers in Abu Ghraib real Christians. 

Maybe a little shock therapy would help you Brother.

Lameese

 Lameese

But in all seriousness, Nicholas Berg was from Pennsylvania, where I was born.  I could use him as a reason to hate all Muslims.  But, I have the capacity to realize that a few do not represent the many.  I would not spit on the muslim family here in Utah, who's son faked his capture and then deserted his unit.  Its not there fault their son made the choices he did. 

Prejudice is the act of pre judging a person.  Judgement is for God only.

Angela wrote: Brother, I did not attribute a false statement.  I asked if you wanted the young girl married to an older man or a younger man.  I said nothing against the Prophet.  His wife Aisha was very young but he lived in 600 AD.  In those days, the life expectancy was much shorter and children had to grow up much faster, physcially and mentally.  But there was also a much, much, much higher rate of infant/mother mortality.  I am not judging the early marriage on basis of religion, but of simple truth in medical fact.

Why, u must be MAD not to know why prophet(PBUH) married Aisha(ra)! He didnt marry her to satisfy the sexual desire(cause he was above 50yrs at that time and science tell us that a person looss his desire at bout 45yrs) but to strenthen the relation with neighboring kingdoms(or tribes).

Angela wrote:  Where some girls would be mature mentally at 14, physically they would be at risk.  And very few would be mature enough.

I meself dont agree with bro 123 that 14 is the right time to marry.Maybe 16?Any way, prophet ask us to marry as soon as we r in that condition, that is, we can afford being husband or wife.Today, I feel that if this stupid law of marriage,that is, men have to be 21 and women at least 18, was not here, then we would have actually protected ourself from some SERIOUS sin.Prophet has asked us not to look at a person frm opposite sex; do u know how hard it is?A severe punishment awaits who commit adultery;and a person without spouse have more chances of commiting it.

Angela wrote:  Lameese   But in all seriousness, Nicholas Berg was from Pennsylvania, where I was born.  I could use him as a reason to hate all Muslims.  But, I have the capacity to realize that a few do not represent the many.  I would not spit on the muslim family here in Utah, who's son faked his capture and then deserted his unit.  Its not there fault their son made the choices he did.  Prejudice is the act of pre judging a person.  Judgement is for God only.

Maybe some shock therapy would do you good too. I just basically said all of that. I also tried to tell Brother that the real Muslims do not act the way these that call themselves are and real Christians do not torture people locked up in a prision, unless you are saying now that I should not say that because they are real Christians???

Actually your post does not make a lot of sense.

Lameese

Lameese, I was laughing at the shock therapy comment.  Nothing more....the quote thing did not work right.  Calm down and read the smily as being for you and the Berg comment as a response to Bro123.  I was not laughing at your comments.  I respect you too much for that.

As for the "christians" in Abu Graib, I highly doubt any of those numbskulls were Christian.  They were questionable characters to begin with.  I agree their actions were hideous, and I would never think such actions were appropriate.  I personally think that those soldiers are not getting a harsh enough punishment.  I also believe that Guantanomo Bay is a violation of our constitution and basic human rights.  No matter how the White House spins it. 

As for the Prophets marriage, I read in a post she might not be as young as what some believe.  But, I do not believe that Mohammed married any of his wives because of sexual desire.  He seemed to truly love them from what I've read so far.  Your right, Aisha, was a political marriage first and foremost.  Young marriage is good as long as both people are mature enough to understand the commitment and to financially be independent of their families.  I agree with you that 18-21 is a good range to begin looking at marriage as a viable option.  I was 23.  My sister was 21.  But, I have a friend who married at 17 and her marriage failed before its 2 anniversary.  She was not mature enough to handle adulthood, let alone marriage and employment.  I guess, it goes on the individual to decide if they are ready and the families to consel whats best for all. 

The marriages I worry the most about are young women and much older men.  I have seen a number of these marriages and they never seem to be healthy.  Either the husband is controlling and domineering, only looking as his wife like some sexual trophy or the wife is so immature, the husband is constantly battling with an extra child in the house.  That is why I asked him to define a little closer what he meant by a girl should be married so young?  You are literally talking about two different things depending on the age separation between spouses, especially with the woman being underage.

Anyway, that's how I feel.

Brother123 wrote: So your saying the problem is with the islamicity so caleld scholars?

who said that ?

lol! talk about the problem does not lay with you but with others

Brother123 wrote: Kim we are awake. But when are you non-muslims going to wake up?

Open your eyes. God gave you cloths to cover up and not walk naked or half naked.

Didn't Adam and Eve walked naked in the garden of Eden before their fall ?? 

According to the Quran the One who believes in islam is not equal to the one who disblieves in Islam.

sooooooooo you saying that muslims are more superior than non muslims ??

sooooooooo you saying that muslims are more superior than non muslims ??

Course they r; u hv any problem?

Dayem wrote: sooooooooo you saying that muslims are more superior than non muslims ?? Course they r; u hv any problem?

yeah i do, is that a problem ?

Angel wrote: yeah i do, is that a problem ?

Firstly, letme remove any misconception:by muslim I mean a person who has submitted his will,his desire and every thing against the will of Almighty Allah.(Dictionary will define them as 'fundamentals'.)Needless to say, the laws and wish of Allah are in  Qur'an and Hadiths.

In other word, muslim=person STRICTLY abiding by Qur'an and sunnah of Prophet(PBUH).

SO ONCE AGAIN; any problem with muslims(keeping in mind the defination of muslim)?If so, plz specify.

(I believe that is what brother123 meant by 'muslim')

I don't think you read his point either.

brother123 said according to the quran, one who believe is not equal to one who disbelieves, he thinks he is much better because he believes, in other words it is like say that a believer is more superior than a non believer.

Every one is equal, we are all human beings, what one believes or not does not really change that, you are no better than I, and I am no better than you but that is not what is being said here. get it ?

Why are you or muslims better than the next who may not believe in islam ?

I know the definition of muslim.

Angela wrote: Lameese, I was laughing at the shock therapy comment.  Nothing more....the quote thing did not work right.  Calm down and read the smily as being for you and the Berg comment as a response to Bro123.  I was not laughing at your comments.  I respect you too much for that. As for the "christians" in Abu Graib, I highly doubt any of those numbskulls were Christian.  They were questionable characters to begin with.  I agree their actions were hideous, and I would never think such actions were appropriate.  I personally think that those soldiers are not getting a harsh enough punishment.  I also believe that Guantanomo Bay is a violation of our constitution and basic human rights.  No matter how the White House spins it.

I apologize Anglea, I thought you were defending the people in the prision scandel as Christians. Again, I apologize for misunderstanding.

Lameese

We are better than non-muslims because we believe in the true religion of God. God elevates those human beings who believe in his religion   and thus do not ascribe partners like a son, wife etc abover those human beings who do not believe in Islam.

Allah says:
You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'r�f (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islaam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in All�h��. (Quran 3: 110).

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Yes Brother123, I knew that i've read it somewhere, couldnt however remember it.I meant to search for it.Thanx anyway-

Happy Fastings,

Dayem.

Brother123 wrote: We are better than non-muslims because we believe in the true religion of God. God elevates those human beings who believe in his religion   and thus do not ascribe partners like a son, wife etc abover those human beings who do not believe in Islam. Allah says: You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'r�f (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islaam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in All�h��. (Quran 3: 110).   http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Dayem, see  - I rest my point on the superiority issue.  

Angel wrote:   Why are you or muslims better than the next who may not believe in islam ?

Maybe because,er,.......those who dont believe in the last day are rushing headlong towards hellfire?Maybe?

See, a person who believe, know that he will have to meet Allah(swt) one day.He will always be concious that he will have to do good work so as to be successful.He will think twice, thrice before doing something wrong.

Compared to someone who dont believe in the hereafter:He will enjoy his life; work for his selfishness,will not mind doing anything wrong,would not think of sharing two-pence with poors, and finally suffer.

Happy Ramazan,

Dayem.

Well, Allah knows best.

Even if such people, as u say, are, they r very rare.I mean, how many people u know, who dont believe in last day or God or Allah, do things for other?I think i have read some where that when some unbeliever do good, they r rewarded in this life only.

With all my sincerity I ask you, if u dont believe in Last day or Allah, and when you do a good thing, will u not think that 'What the heck I got from this good deed?'I mean, man is born selfish, each one of us.For every action, he looks for a reaction in his favor.........just think fo a moment..........aint that so?Even a muslim, or a christian, or anyone who believe in God or the last day, will think the same thing.....but he will be satisfied, knowing that he has done something good, which shall help him in the hereafter.

A person who 'believe in himself' or call there creation a coincidence.....well....they will surely say whats the use of doing good.

Thanks for your reply mankind,

Regards,

Dayem.

I will say this, when you start treating people equal and with respect, the way you want to be treated then you will receive that back to you.

And that is ALL what we want is it not ?

Hi Angel,

even chritians believe that they are better than the non-chritians....

MANKIND:You are of course right.....all of us do things to plz ourself only.......and that is defined as 'Selfishness'......u know, to plz ourself, we dont even care for others.But I think u meant people who do SOCIAL works,voluantry, benefitting others and getting satisfaction in return..........well u hv got me there.But who knows, these people also believe in God?Or those who dont believe, maybe God rewards them in this life only?

ANGEL:Well yes......but...if we r getting the respect and same treatment in this life only......what is the advantage?

ZEA J:Yes u r rite, but that is because many christian also, alhamdilillah, believe in God and the last day......thereby do good....

Happy Ramazan everyone,

Regards,

Dayem.

Allah owns heaven and hell not mankind. Thus Allah chooses who will go to hell and heaven.

The condition for entery into heaven is the belief in Islam. It is Allah's  law that He will not allow kaffirs to enter heaven unless they believe in Islam and reject kufr. As no religion will be accepted after the coming of Islam.

 It is a crime Against God to not believe in his religion and associate partners with him like a son etc. Crime against God is far worse than crime against humans.

If Allah places soem one in hellfire. No one can get himher out. Even if the whole mankind gathered againsy Allah they will not be able to do anything.

If you want heaven by being good to mankind and not believe in Islam then ask the heaven that mankind can give you. You can not give what does not belong to you.

Actually nothing belongs to you. It all belongs to Allah . Even you.

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

As-salamualaikum warah mutullah wa bar ka tuhu,

Brother123 wrote: The condition for entery into heaven is the belief in Islam. It is Allah's  law that He will not allow kaffirs to enter heaven unless they believe in Islam and reject kufr. As no religion will be accepted after the coming of Islam.

Brother123!I advise you to use english only.......you see, when you say that the condition for entry in paradise is belief in 'Islam'........Islam,when transalated in english means peace(root word=salam)....while in general term is a name of religion.Those who follow 'the religion Islam'....are muslim.....have submitted there wills and desire 100% against those of Allah(swt).....will I think go to Heaven.But Quran itself talks about some people of the book who are good(ie, do good works), believe in God and the last day........will also go to heaven.

Now Kafir means 'some one who knows the truth and denies it'.That is, those person who refuses, even while secretly knowing, the exisence of God or the last day(I am not sure if that is the exact defination)......well of course they will go to Hell...........

Mankind wrote: ..if theres a human n he doesnt believe in anything n he lives normal provides food for his family help others n all that simple goods...

Well, personally I think your question 'could have been better'.There are lots of information which you have not revealed about this imaginary person........he dosn't believe In God, WHY?Allah(swt) has send us in this world for a test........so this person does not acknowledges the test..me thinks he gonna fail....he enjoys the sunshine in winter, rain in summer.........food he eats.etc,etc,.....and he dosnt even reflect who is sending him these things?Or does he have an attitude, 'Who cares?'.....Pity, Pity.....I think that all his good work will be returned in this world only.(Allah swt knows best).

I said ' your question could have been better'......You know.....suppose a child is born at a family which practises shirk......so he grows up.........nice in manner...helping othere...anyway he grow but practises shirk......now he suddenly dies.....where will he go?Well, Allah(swt knows best.

Was salam,

Dayem.

ZEA J wrote: Hi Angel, even chritians believe that they are better than the non-chritians....

So

Does that give you permission/excuse to do the same as well ?

Dayem wrote: ANGEL:Well yes......but...if we r getting the respect and same treatment in this life only......what is the advantage?

what is the advantage you ask, umm lets see...I don't know maybe a good life in the next life

Dayem, people treat others with respect and equality because they see it as the right thing to do, not for satisfaction of this life only but to do good in general because it makes them a better person and the other person feels good about it to, they feel respected and worthy.

Why does there have to be any gain ?? Why can't you do it because that is the person who you are ?

Some think Mother Teresa work was to get into heaven, perhaps a selfish gain and not for the good of humanity.

Do you not do the right in islam to avoid punishment and to get to heaven, is this not also a selfish gain ? Why do you do it for, sure you do it to please God - is that all ??

Is it not, to do good and praise God by doing good for humanity and this universe by giving it respect and equality and treat everyone as you want to be treated.

Have you heard of the ripple effect ?

I simple don't agree with this superiority issue you have, believing that you are better than non believers. So some people believe in God and some don't, so what. We still human aren't we ??

Angel Do we care what you believe. Nope. :)

When some one doesnt treat God with respect. Inventing lies against God. Saying God has a son. Then how can he/she be respected?

God is more important than humans. Dont u agree god is more important than humans? 

http://www.shariahway.com - www.shariahway.com

Man we are open minded to the truth not to the lies. Nice trick ...doesnt work. too clever for u :)

You need to be open minded and realsie human beings are not equal.

A criminal such as an  lier is not equal  to one  who is truthful.

The biggest Criminal is one who lies against Godby saying He has a son.

Dayem You should look up the Shariah meanings rather than being DIY expert in lunguistics ( Even in that you have failed quite poorly in. I am afraid to say)

As salam u alaikum wa rah mu tullah wa bar ka tuhu,

ANGEL:I once again agree with most of ur argument...but..yah there is once again a "but".

U r right, we should respect others..and in turn will get respected..but my point is that even a person who is a muslim will respect others.Because we have been asked to.Now a person cares for other and in turn is respected..now suddenly circumstances changes..suppose he is suddenly converted frm riches to rags..will he continue to respect others?Will he not curse his fate?But if that person is a believer in God and last day..he will know that it is all a test..he will shrugg his shouldier and carry on..

Now when u say something like service of humanity is the service of God..I agree..but frm where did this 'God' came frm?I thought we were discussing an unbeliever.

As brother123 said, God is more important than humans.Well he is rite.We muslims are supposed to pray, as well as care for poors by giving zakath, etc, and try to strengthen the relation ships with other family members.We r doing it for the sake of God's desire only.

As for 'some people not believing in God' they r doing a great sin..God created them and they r themself denying Him.Yes they r humans..but definately not equal to those who believe.

Brother123:sorry, Im only learning here..I will definately look for the shariah defination..but u didnt tell me where im lacking?Whats the meaning of 'DIY expert in lunguistics '?

Brother123 wrote: Angel Do we care what you believe. Nope. :)

I'm not talking about my beliefs here. The discussion is on about you believing that believers/muslims are better than non muslims, you thinking that you are superior than others and why I think its wrong.

When some one doesnt treat God with respect. Inventing lies against God. Saying God has a son. Then how can he/she be respected?

They still believe in God.

They are human beings just like you, just because they don't believe the same way about God as you, doesn't mean that you don't treat them with respect and equality, we are all human beings and face same things in life.

And you seem to stay with one group of people.

When some one doesnt treat God with respect. Inventing lies against God.

And who are they?

God is more important than humans. Dont u agree god is more important than humans?

I'm not going to speak about my beliefs about God here in this thread, this is not the subject. 

Brother123 wrote: Man we are open minded to the truth not to the lies. Nice trick ...doesnt work. too clever for u :)

You need to be open minded and realsie human beings are not equal.

really?? what makes you think that?

We are all human beings of the one and same species, just because some of us believe differently than you doesn't mean we do not deserve respect and equality from each other.

We are one and everything on this planet and universe are made up of technically the same things, since we are all one, we are connected thru all things, we feel what happens in another part of the world, and we hate many of the bad things that happen and we rejoice in many of the happy things, why is that Brother123 ?

Because we are all human beings and we feel and we go thru the same things DESPITE what we believe in, that alone should consitute to being respectful and treated equally. No one needs to be superior over another because of their beliefs. But it seems to be commanded in the qur'an, something I don't agree with.  

A criminal such as an  lier is not equal  to one  who is truthful.

A lair is a criminal ?? mmmm .

The biggest Criminal is one who lies against Godby saying He has a son.

Really and what if they are right ?

You muslims cannot say what is right and what is wrong in the injil so you cannot be certain for sure.

And besides we are all God's children sons and daughters, we are His creation are we not ??

Dayem wrote: As salam u alaikum wa rah mu tullah wa bar ka tuhu, ANGEL:I once again agree with most of ur argument...but..yah there is once again a "but". U r right, we should respect others..and in turn will get respected..but my point is that even a person who is a muslim will respect others.Because we have been asked to.

Do really need to be asked ??

You shouldn't really have to be asked.

So if you weren't asked to mostly especially from God, you wouldn't ??

So much for using you God given brain   

Now a person cares for other and in turn is respected..now suddenly circumstances changes..suppose he is suddenly converted frm riches to rags..will he continue to respect others?Will he not curse his fate?But if that person is a believer in God and last day..he will know that it is all a test..he will shrugg his shouldier and carry on..

You really sure about that ?

The person you describe, may or may not, a person may in the beginning curse his fate but he also has the ability to change his fate again. Some people became humble when they fall. Some people will still respect others.

Just because a believer believes in God doesn't mean he/she will shrug his shoulders and carry on.

Now when u say something like service of humanity is the service of God..I agree..but frm where did this 'God' came frm?I thought we were discussing an unbeliever.

No we were/are discussing this superiority issues, where a believer is better than non muslims.

As brother123 said, God is more important than humans.Well he is rite.We muslims are supposed to pray, as well as care for poors by giving zakath, etc, and try to strengthen the relation ships with other family members.We r doing it for the sake of God's desire only.

While you do it for God's desire, you do it for your desire else well, that is to get into jannah and not the hell fire

As for 'some people not believing in God' they r doing a great sin..God created them and they r themself denying Him.Yes they r humans..but definately not equal to those who believe.

 Again, I rest my case on the "I'm better than you / I am the best because I believe and therefore don't need to treat you the same"

Honestly that is the mentality that is going on here.

Mankind is the only one here that fully understands where I'm coming from. Dayem you somewhat do but you are only half there, and Brother123 you are off track I think you need to learn some more about humanity