As'Salaamu Alaikum brothers,

I'm sure those of you who have seen my post regarding this issue (as well as the moderators) are probably tired of me bringing this up, but I have to say that this issue needs to be widely address. The lack of addressing this issue also says a lot about our Ummah (Muslim community). Under the guidance of Allah we are united under one single principle. Those in which assist in forming those principles are those keyelements that we need to retain one of which the prophet Muhammad spoke before his death was doing good deeds, and that, that is the determinant for the herefater.

He aslo stated that no white (person) is better than a black (person) and no black (person) is better than a white (person) only through good deeds. Now unfortunately centuries later there are still racial tensions in our community. In regards to choosing a mate a lot of cultures mostly Eastern and South asian culture tend to instill this cultural endogamy upon their children. If a daughter decides to marry a white man even if he shares the same faith I've seen that has become a problem. The question is why?

The usual response I get is: Well its called cultural compatibility. How can such an individual marry another from a different culture if he doesn't understand it? It wouldn't work out.

My response: How do you know? If the daughter chooses to marry outside the culture then its her choice and ultimately her decision. If the individual pleases her and respects her then why does culture in that instance matter? Isn't kind deeds and respect for our wives a rule in which the prophets addressed in Hadeeth? Didn't Allah say that we all were created in various forms and colors to know each other? Did he not say we are all from one single soul?

There is no refutation to what I say except ones ignorance of scripture and truth, and therefore we will still live in denial that racism doesn't exist in the Muslim community. Racism does exist in the Islamic community and what is funny is that we look at western society and complain, but the one thing I do respect is that western society does address the racism issue and event hough it still exist within that society it is still addressed by those men and women to address them unlike some of us within our community.

One of the things the prophet Jesus (AS) said in the Bible that I remember was "How can you take the needle out of your brothers eye when the needle is in your own eye?" translation: Why focus on one issue if you have an issue of your own?

Sound familiar?

Most if not all of us understand and acknowledge that racial problems exist not only in the larger society, but also with adherents of our faith.  But, having said that, we all have the right to marry those who are pleasing and desirable. 

What about marriage to an overweight person, poor person, uneducated, handicapped, tall, short�  It is so wrong that a father would desire that his daughter marry one from her own country, having an equal educational and financial background?  I believe the more couples have in common will increase the level of success in their marriage.

If white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes were the qualities that are attractive, why would someone want to marry the opposite?  

Glad you brought that up!

The problem here is what you mentioned "The father" first and foremost one of the things about Western society is that family is family and marriage is marriage there is no in between. My family is not involved in who I marry to the extent that they make decisions for me. If I love someone who is "over weight" or has blond hair and blue eyes that is of my own concern, not theirs. What makes this a "problem" is that certain culture instill these so-called values in their children especially if they're Muslim.

For example why when a father discusses these issues with their child would say "Marry this Pakistani" and not this Black man for the Pakistanis has more in common with you than the black man. Now to me that doesn't make sense. Without knowing the other person he automatically suggest marriage with the pakistani. Why? because he's black and assumes that this individual doesn't speak the language? Suppose that this person has lived in Pakistan and is well aware of the language and culture? There are so many loop holes.

There is nothing wrong with a person liking another who they desire. What becomes a problem and contradictory to the teachings of Islam is that cultural preference is more important than the good intentions. Not everyone from a Middle Eastern or of South Asian culture believes in this. I believe what makes things "common" to people are not just culture but individual interest and the good intentions of another not the cultural affiliation. To me this is the problem with our community. Now if you can find a justification for this then I'd like to see it abu!

Also adding to this the "more you have in common" stuff. That isn't always true bro ever heard of opposites attract? the reason Arab girls and Pakistani girls marry outside their culture here in the U.S is because the American culture is so different. A lot of women find that too much similarity is boring hence you dont learn from others I tend to find this quite true.

For example why when a father discusses these issues with their child would say "Marry this Pakistani" and not this Black man for the Pakistanis has more in common with you than the black man. Now to me that doesn't make sense. Without knowing the other person he automatically suggest marriage with the pakistani. Why? because he's black and assumes that this individual doesn't speak the language? Suppose that this person has lived in Pakistan and is well aware of the language and culture? There are so many loop holes.

Brother, speaking from the heart, the problem as I see it, is that never before in the history of Islam, have we had so many Muslims choosing to live in Western societies.  You therefore have Western converts meeting Asian girls, and liking them.  The parents of these girls are concerned for their girls in these societies, and for reasons that I'm sure you would agree.  The fact that families desire for them men from their own culture makes perfect sense to me.  Likely these men know how to properly respect this girl�s family and Islamic values, something often times missing with converts.  They speak to her family concerning intentions for marriage, and not seek to have "girlfriend" type relations, so common in the West.  So, I don't blame families for being cautious concerning Western converts.

There is nothing wrong with a person liking another who they desire. What becomes a problem and contradictory to the teachings of Islam is that cultural preference is more important than the good intentions.

Well, people do not know your intentions; only you and Allah.  But, they are aware of what they see.  A free mixing society, dating, and talking on the telephone, emailing, and a host of other problems they do not wish for their daughter.  Do you really think a Pakistani father could feel proud to phone Pakistan and tell his extended family that his daughter has met this great Black guy on campus - who has "good intentions" and she is in love with him?

Not everyone from a Middle Eastern or of South Asian culture believes in this. I believe what makes things "common" to people are not just culture but individual interest and the good intentions of another not the cultural affiliation. To me this is the problem with our community. Now if you can find a justification for this then I'd like to see it abu!

My dear brother, there is life as we wish it to be, and life as it is.  Most marry from their own people.  If  you  desire a girl from another culture or race; I have no problem with that.  I simply would not like you are meeting my daughter at school or work, flirting and wooing her.  Don't come to me after you are both already in "love" seeking my permission for marriage.

Also adding to this the "more you have in common" stuff. That isn't always true bro ever heard of opposites attract? the reason Arab girls and Pakistani girls marry outside their culture here in the U.S is because the American culture is so different. A lot of women find that too much similarity is boring hence you dont learn from others I tend to find this quite true.

Well, I don't believe that "a lot" of Arab and Pakistani girls marry outside their culture, certainly a few do.  Opposites attract; nice clich�, but as you are finding, the reality on the ground is quite different - and understandably so.

Abuayisha Wa' Alaikum Salaam,

As I understood from what you say the preventitive measures that many cultures take is to safeguard their children from the inclination of the sins of the world most notably Western socieities as you mentuion. Ok, this perhaps is understandable. But brother what you perhaps maybe blind to see is that there is a difference in what you've stated and what I've stated. I'm merely talking about the philosophies of these cultures (Those who do not live in western society) who imput in their children the stigmas of individual cultures not nationalities.

When I made the analogy of the Pakistani father telling his young daughter ( or son) to not marry another of their culture my intent was to clearly state the problem of the philsoophies of the individual not the culture per say. Yes I may state generally what I find to be a problem but let's get something clear when a man tells another his opinion on the world it is just that his opinion. Having said that let's look at some of the stuff you said brother and to get points across clear I wil dissect what you say (No offense):

>>>Brother, speaking from the heart, the problem as I see it, is that never before in the history of Islam, have we had so many Muslims choosing to live in Western societies. You therefore have Western converts meeting Asian girls, and liking them. <<<

Brother you sound as if this is a problem! I believe us "Western converts" (I would use the more politically correct term "reverts" as this is the nature of humans who recognize again their primordial faith). I find that those "converts" who meet their loved one in Islam within the faith and is of another culture I see no problem with that. As Allah has stated in the Qur'an that he has made us "various nations and tribes so that we may know one another." So again what is the problem with this? Oh maybe if we continue you might explain better as you said:

>>>The parents of these girls are concerned for their girls in these societies, and for reasons that I'm sure you would agree. The fact that families desire for them men from their own culture makes perfect sense to me. <<<

Ok let's get something straight you're telling me because of Western society a father of perhaps Pakistani descent may not want his daughter marrying someone of a different culture because of society or the individual? You tell me. Now if a father is worried about his daughter getting involved in the sins of society then he has failed in his understanding of fatherhood.

1) A father cannot control every action of his child

2) He his only responsible to the point of a child to an adult establishing his/her own independence therefore his opinion only goes so far when it comes to social matters. Of course nothing beats fatherly wisdom but an adult male/female will ultimately make their own decisions.

Brother, Father of Ayisha! I would accept the fact that you would say it preferable for a father to wed his daughter to someone of his own culture for cultural preference but to say because of western society is pointless no offense. Society which is everything but Islamic she be understood with the preservation of character and the correct knowledge to battle some of the sins in such a society. Therefore in light of this a father telling his child to not marry another because of western society/or because western soceity is multi-cultural is not a good father instincts. Now if a father states that he would rather his Son/Daughter marry because of cultural preference then that's fine.

There is nothing wrong with some compatibility, but if you look at this more deeper this is why we have cultural divisions rather than unity in the Islamic community and no I disagree with you brother no all Muslims acknowledge this ever read up on the Sundan disaster?

>>My dear brother, there is life as we wish it to be, and life as it is. Most marry from their own people. If you are desire a girl from another culture or race; I have no problem with that. I simply would not like you are meeting my daughter at school or work, flirting and wooing her. Don't come to me after you are both already in "love" seeking my permission for marriage.<<

Brother with all due respect to you you have nothing to worry about! I do not "meet at work" nor do I "flirt" I may seem charming and have been said to be extremely handomsome  but that is not my character besides I'm single and too busy with school! In addition to what you said in the latter portion it would be said for such an intelligent man as yourself to deny another young man, with good intentions to deny him because he may not be suitable to you culturally. I cannot stress the importance of the prophet's last speech when we says that no culture is better than the other save those individuals who do good deeds.

As Rev. Martin Luther King said "I have a dream that my children will not be judge by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." To me those are elements of Islamic principles many individuals in our community lose sight of and you I'm sure agree to what I've said here thus far. Brother as you said nobody knows the good intentions save Allah so therefore why would any man deny another y oung man the opportunity to share his life with another (of a different culture) because the father may not know his intentions or his culture? Has humans today become that ignorant that we care more about cultural compatibility than about individual happiness? If your daughter didn't find any compatibility then ever thought maybe she wouldn't have chosen this prospective husband? Not saying you in particular brither but this question is general.

I agree that its important to have some compatibility culturally because both parties can share their similar experience sin life and can enjoy those particular celebrations in that culture. But again to deny another person solely because he isn't from that culture or because he is from the U.S or from a Western society is not (in my opinion) internal Islamic wisdom. Islam calls for cultural unison therefore our philosophies must be align with:

1) Is the prospective person Muslim and strives (not perfect) to get closer to God?

2) We Muslims always ask this most common question: What is his/her intention? Well for one I would assume marriage. But more importanlty on this matter the man's response would be to meet his other soul in his Iman. Second to stregthen his faith in Allah by sustaining a family. 3) That he will have children and to continue his/and his wifes legacy to raise them fairly.

3) Asking the your daughter/son the question: Does he/she make you happy? Are you willing to struggle with this person? If I give you away will you promise to love him/her and cherish their imperfections?

So on and so forth.....

Alhamdulilah I should be married by now but Allah has much better plans for me and I pray that this what I've written here thus far pleases him Amin!

Well, I don't believe that "a lot" of Arab and Pakistani girls marry outside their culture, certainly a few do.  Opposites attract; nice clich�, but as you are finding, the reality on the ground is quite different - and understandably so.

Yes it is a nice cliche you think so too? No a lot of Pakistani and Arab girls don't marry outside their culture but some do at least in California where I live. Some come from Muslim families and date and some come from non-Muslim families and still date or hook up with others from different cultures. I agree the reality on the ground is different in some areas yes I agree and in some cases is understandable. But is it understandable that parents instill such inclusive values in their children using cultural stigmas? No.

I challenge any parent her eor abroad the reason for this and I can give them 99 (Islamic references of course) on why this isn't so. You know brother I'm 23 years old and I haven't lived live as long as many here but what I do understand is growing up in a single parent household I've seen my mother be involved with different men ( as far as character). Of course majority of them were African-American but one thing she told me before she passed was that regardless no matter what person you meet be it black or white or of another culture as long as they make you happy and are faithful to you and vice versa then it all good. The problem with many cultures from the Middle and Far East is that there is an unwillingness to adapt to another different culture.

Because of this maybe many still instill these values of culture endogamy in thier children. In my family no matter who you are and if you are my wife my family will treat you like family. Maybe this is why we in the U.S is the most multicultured in the world and perhaps this is why we have many social benefits.

Apologies sister Jenni what you mentioned earlier about those individuals who bleach their skin is nothing new. In America there used to be a system called the "brown bag system" which if a person enters a room whose skin is darker than a brown bag (or is as the same color as the bag) they were to eat or sit in the section where "colored people" used to sit. Now in the wold we live in today the color "black" or of any dark skin color was seen as evil or of the devil. This was nothing new when the prophet came in Arabia. Even Abu Jahl called Bilal "son of a slave woman!" no surprise there. Now we come to people bleaching their skin to look whiter! nothing new there.

The ethics and philosophies of Islam is not ingrained in the Ummah of today because culture prevails. culture has twisted the minds of so many people that we have those who justify their own prejudices using Quran and some go to the extent in making up things to justify their own prejudices. A friend here (And you know who you are) said I'm too young and eventually my views will change. I DONT THINK SO! When I was 15 my views about the world didnt change perhaps my views now and from then have perhaps added a few more thoughts.

I don't think I'm too young for this issue this should be an issue we should not allow such an issue to prevail because this is how life is. To me any individual here or abroad says "This is how life is" has given up. I choose not to say this is how life is. So many here love to talk negative about the west and even though the west has its history and share of racism at least there is education and appreication in our school systems of cultures and at least there is some celebration of our diverse society unlike our so-called egaliatarian countries (Home of the beloved prophet mind you) saudi Arabia and other countries bent on criticising the U.S

Wow, ok here goes.

Jenni is right when she says that cultures perfer lighter skinned women and lighter skinned men. Is this right? No, of course not. Mohammed tried to change all the with the slave Bilal. The daughter of a wealthy man married this slave after Mohammed declared he was an equal and he was black.

In society, indirectly, I think every one is taught that lighter is better. If you take a group of children and give then dolls, White, black and darked skinned 99% of the time they will tell you the white one is prettier. Even the black and darked skinned children will. Why? I think it is taught  in the home,in media, movie stars ect...

Men and women can perfer any skin color when they want to marry but the overwhelming majority will choose lighter skinned men and lighter skinned women. This is just fact, we need to change things from the grass roots level. My mother, whom I love very much, taught me that everyone was equal but that you never marry a black man or even consider them as attractive. Why? That is how she was taught. It all starts at home and gets worse as we grow up and get out into school and society.

As far as women from other countries (espically Muslim countries) marrying the man of their choice is LAUGHABLE! The men of different cultures have more rights when choosing their wives. The women have their husbands choosen for them. Afterall, you approach the parents first, if they do not like you or your skin color or your nationality, their daughter never gets to marry you. Also, there are a lot of forced marriages in Islam. One of my friends was in love with an Arab Muslim man and she was Pakistani, he begged her father to talk to her family and refused. He went himself to her family, they turned him away, they then brought men for her to choose to marry, when she did not want any of them, her parents forced her to marry the last one that chose. Sound like a horror novel? Yes, but it does and is happnening. So, when you all say that it is because the culture is closer, that is really just saying because I want her marrying her own, period.

If you want to change the way things are, get over yourself first and what you think is right for your child. If your child is in their 20's and educated then they can make an informed decision. You do not own their souls and you do not have to be married to their partners for the rest of your life. I cannot stand the thought that my son would have his wife chosen for him. I do not have to be married to the person he chooses. If he asks me I will give my opinion but I refuse to say anything about the culture he chooses or the color of her skin.

There are 2 times in life when you are competely equal, Birth (because no one cares at that age who you are or the color of your skin) and death for the same reasons.

If my son or daughter were to miss out on someone that made her happy just because of my fears and prejudices then I will have to answer to Allah for that. Some people condem their children to hell with the marriage partners they have chosen for their children, no matter how self righteous they think they are being.

I would like to know how many men out here had their wives chosen for them and then I would love to know how many women had theirs chosen for them.

Lameese

Lameese excellent point,

But the problem here in the Muslim community is that this problem is acknowledged but is not discussed openly even among the so-called world's best scholars. Yes the stigmas and prejudices of other cultures does start at homes and in those environments that is what I acknowledged before. The problem I have here is that this is not a worldwide problem for other Muslims. Another problem I have here is that countries such as Saudi Arabia Pakistan India etc etc If I'm not mistaken do not teach cultural sensitivity along with the Islamic cirriculum. My thing is how can we created a doctrine of understanding between our respective culture inside the Islamic unmbrella?

We are the most diverse religion in the world and even though we acknowledge this there is nothing which appreciates that save the Qur'an. There are no scholars out in the open that discuss this matter and yes even though it may sound redundant and yes even though its Islamic sense that there are no cultural barriers in Islam millions upon millions of people are ignorant of this because cultures from the Mid East to Asia breed a different philosophy.

As I mentioned the woman of Arab descent whom I was going to marry told me (when she broke it off) that Allah said in the Qur'an that Arabs were to only marry Arabs...LOL now I hope Allah has mercy on her soul as she just blasphemied the Qur'an. But this type of mindset is not uncommon. We as a community do not talk about the importance of interracial marriages. To me I think these breed more of an understanding and unity among cultures than marriages that are not interracial. Bro Abuayisha quit just after a few post in this discussion. Though I give congratz for ladting thus far many cultures who breed ethnocentrism would not give this topic the time or day.

Sister Lameese there are excuses for this (meaning excuses for cultures not wanting to marry outside the culture).

1) First excuse is interracial relationships can create confusion

2) Interracial relationships are difficult to maintain

3) Interracial relationships are difficult because the two parties come from two different backgrounds and thus its more simpler to marry within one's own group.

To answer to 1) Interrcial relationships do not create confusion. In matters of children both parents acan discuss with the child the importance of both cultures. Also the parents can make the child feel a sense of belonging to both cultures not just one. It's up to the parents to teach the child this.

2) Interracial relationships are difficult to maintain if both parties are unwilling to compromise. If one party is willing and the other unwilling then in any relationship it wouldn't work. If both parties love each other and are willing to struggle in this matter together no matter what then this is not difficult its called UNDERSTANDING.

3) The same here is as above. Because one may come from an Anglo family and the other from a chinese family doesn't mean both can come to a point where both can partake in the festive of both cultures. This can create an appreciation of the foreign culture if one gets involved. Even if the foreign culture is not agreeable at least find some common ground. Not all human tribes and cultures are totally dissimilar.

Laziness and ethnocentrism and prejudice are the three components that plague our Ummah of today. We will never get over this until we (as sister Lameese states) change ourselves and our backgrounds. In matter sof choosing our life partners I believe culture should be the last thing in our minds. Sure we want compatibility but most important we want an individual who we feel will make us happy and can respect and maintain a family. If the first thing that comes to mind is whether this individual is Pakistani or Arab then we as parents, potential parents, hopeful parents have failed in our Islamic mindset.

We shouldn't think this way because as the prophet mentions that our distinction in the eyes of Allah comes from our deeds not our cultures.

As'Salaamu Alaikum brothers,

I'm sure those of you who have seen my post regarding this issue (as well as the moderators) are probably tired of me bringing this up, but I have to say that this issue needs to be widely address. The lack of addressing this issue also says a lot about our Ummah (Muslim community). Under the guidance of Allah we are united under one single principle. Those in which assist in forming those principles are those keyelements that we need to retain one of which the prophet Muhammad spoke before his death was doing good deeds, and that, that is the determinant for the herefater.

He aslo stated that no white (person) is better than a black (person) and no black (person) is better than a white (person) only through good deeds. Now unfortunately centuries later there are still racial tensions in our community. In regards to choosing a mate a lot of cultures mostly Eastern and South asian culture tend to instill this cultural endogamy upon their children. If a daughter decides to marry a white man even if he shares the same faith I've seen that has become a problem. The question is why?

The usual response I get is: Well its called cultural compatibility. How can such an individual marry another from a different culture if he doesn't understand it? It wouldn't work out.

My response: How do you know? If the daughter chooses to marry outside the culture then its her choice and ultimately her decision. If the individual pleases her and respects her then why does culture in that instance matter? Isn't kind deeds and respect for our wives a rule in which the prophets addressed in Hadeeth? Didn't Allah say that we all were created in various forms and colors to know each other? Did he not say we are all from one single soul?[\quote]

Walai kum As'Salaam

If maintaining our cultural identity is wrong why did God say in the Holy Quran  �O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other"?. And why was Muhammad (S.A.W.S) a proud Quraish? Or, if I love my family members more than other Muslims, does that mean I am being unfair to other Muslims,just because of that?

God didn�t create man in to different tribes and nations just because He wanted to make us interesting to each other (especially considering the amount of bloodshed and suffering that has caused amongst mankind). God develop in us the quality to recognize ourselves in terms of our duties towards those who live in our proximity so that we can live unitedly and help each other at the time of hardships.

Pre-Islamic Arabs, who later converted to Islam, were unknowledgeable, but they were tough people of the desert and did mean what they said. Weak-hearted Western converts to Islam cannot be compared to them. To most of the people in the West, the concept of religion as a way of line is alien. Besides, many of them convert to Islam only for the sake of marriage.

Candor As'Salaamu Alikum,

Apparently you didnt read all of my statement nor did you give it any deep thought, let me help you out. First off I was addressing the socio-ethnic problem in th Muslim community. This comes from the parental household who breed the philosophy that, "to sustain a community one must be equally 'yolked' and must desire to be with one of that community." Now in light of that and in the glorious words of the Qur'an to prefer another person based on race (and not of their good nature) contradicts Quranic philosophy.

So if I choose Jane because she is of Arabic Descent over Jamaal who is black even though Jamaal may treat me better and is much more on my intellectual plane is wrong of me. Number one I'm wrong in showing cultural favortism. Two I'm overlooking another's qualities because I desire to be with someone of my own kind regardless whether the other persons qualities superceed the others.

Cultural favortism in Islam is a plague and should be extinguished not only with the dying off of previous generations but through education. Dont get me wrong not saying here dont be proud of ones own culture, but in the decision of choosing one's decision shouldn't be based on culture its illogical to calculate any decision based on that because what it all boils down to is personality. Muhammad the prophet said no person of color is better than another person of non-color and vice versa except through piety...unfortunately candor your ending remark (asserting if I were to take your comments as deragatory) does not show true Islamic knowledge.

Walai kum As'Salaam,

And finally, if you still think I racially discriminate unfairly against you (and your community), and then feel free to racially discriminate against me, I don�t want anything from you (or your community) and I won�t mind.

I agree that was not well-thought out. It can be interpreted to have other meanings that I didn't intend it to have.

And after sorting out my feelings/views about the matter, I think my partiality is only for Western culture. That is because I believe "good nature" of a person (as is defined by Islam) is, usually, greatly determined by his/her culture.

I do acknowledge racial discrimination exists amongst the Muslims (although, I don't believe it exists in the form as you believe it exists). But there are other more serious problems that confront the Ummah and which require immediate political and miltary solution. It is pointless to feed a starving man if he is bleeding to death (bleeding should be stopped first).

Jenni wrote: Candor, you have differing shades of people even in the same country who share the same culture. My husband has a good friend who is from the same city in Pakistan and went to the same college. Yet this friend is very dark skinned so that people here in the U.S. think he is south indian. To the point when it comes to marraige in south asia many state in the ads that they want a fair skinned spouse, sometimes they expect someone more fairskinned then they are, that is absurd. They are self hating, they hate thier brown skin and want thier children to be lighter than them, so silly to me.

That is probably because of the inferiority complex that developed amongst the people of the sub-continent because of 150 years of British rule.

Or perhaps, it is because fairness indicates gentleness and tenderness. People who work hard, become strong and usually develop a darker complexion. And may be because strength  evokes fear whereas tenderness makes a person trustworthy (people assume that weak people won't dare to act wrongly). But that is my theory, I am not sure.

Candor I assume you haven't delt with racism much when you stated:

>>>But there are other more serious problems that confront the Ummah and which require immediate political and miltary solution.<<<<

Candor perhaps you'd like to go back to Hadith where Abu Jahl calls Bilal "Son of a slave woman." If you think racism is not an even more important issue now than it was 1500 years ago then perhaps your ideas on what is important and not are definitely mixed up. Racism is perhaps the second if not most single important issue that effects this Ummah. Sure you have different cultures and sure you have different cultures banning together. But as the topic implies when it comes to marrying one another that is a different story.

It is usually "I'm your friend until you marry my daughter" type thing. Such as I'm good enough to pray next to you and make you my friend but the case is different in marriage....Think about it.

Oh BTW darker complexion doesn't come from hard work it comes either genetically or through the acclimation of sunlight......... 

candor wrote: Pre-Islamic Arabs, who later converted to Islam, were unknowledgeable, but they were tough people of the desert and did mean what they said. Weak-hearted Western converts to Islam cannot be compared to them. To most of the people in the West, the concept of religion as a way of line is alien. Besides, many of them convert to Islam only for the sake of marriage.

Assalamu Alaikum:

I must take offense at this statement. Obviously you have no clue as to just how tough you have to be to revert to Islam in the West. Most Westerners who revert lose their friends, families, culture, and freedom. Everything that they knew, even the way they have lived their lives changes. They have to choose to leave all of this behind and accept an almost voluntary exile. Something that you must be very strong to do. It is much more difficult to choose this way of life than to be born into it.

I also find it offensive that you say most Westerners revert to Islam because of marriage. I have been a Muslim for 9 years, and been around Muslims from numerous countries for years before that. I can honestly say that reverts are some of the most well read, intellectually knowledgeable Muslims I have met. Most of them read everything they can and seriously study Islam before reverting. It is a life changing choice that you have to approach very seriously. Most reverts know why they have chosen Islam and why they have to follow the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet. They don't do it just because everyone else does, or because their parents make them.  

It is very rare to see a Western woman who has reverted to Islam without hijab. It is very rare to see a Western man who has reverted to Islam who does not live Islam in every aspect of his life everyday. Most of the rising scholars in Islam today are from the West, many are reverts.

I do not believe that any Muslims today can be compared to the Sahaba.

Assalamu alaikum,

Sister Mishmish, thank you for forming a reply to Candor's ill informed comment on "weak-hearted Western converts to Islam".  My heart was too angry at the comment to form a civil reply.  You have done so, nicely.  May Allah reward you for your patience with a matter that surely tore at your heart, as it did at mine.

As to Candor's comment that "there are other more serious problems that confront the Ummah and which require immediate political and military solution".... that may seem true, but in real life, in people's day to day striving to survive and worship Allah as best they can, it is family which forms the core concern of any human being.

Politics, world affairs, struggles between nations, economy, business....these all take a back seat to what is really important in people's everyday lives - that being the people they care the most about, spouse, children, parents, kin.

When people view someone from the "other" as not an option for marriage, how can we expect humans to get along on a grander scale?  It is the marriage of two people that forms the very soul of human existence.  When we can learn to look beyond colour, culture, language, and ethnicity in our marriages, we human beings just might finally learn to get along at all levels.  Racism is an important issue, whether between two persons or between two factions/countries/ideologies - it is at the core of many of the problems in the world today.

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu Alaikum Ummziba:

I agree with you 100%. If we take care of the smaller issues on a day to day basis, then the bigger issues become so much easier. It is difficult to focus on changing the larger scale ills of the world if you are struggling in your everyday life and Imaan. So many times I have seen Brothers who are at the Musjid constantly and are very concerned in worldly affairs while their children, the young Muslims who will be the Ummah of tomorrow, sit at home without guidance. O.K. Maybe that was a little off of the subject, but still true...

But Brothers, you talk about the injustice of the Ummah today and the prejudices within it, yet your posts reflect these very prejudices. Israfil with his notions that other cultures in Islam are against reverts, and Candor with his weak Westerners remark. Both show the very thing that they are complaining against.

I am married to a Brother from another race and culture, as are most of the reverts I know, including the Brothers. I have no problems at all with my husband's family. The few people I know that do have in-law problems would have probably have these problems no matter what race or culture they were. This happens. I also know some single Sisters who are looking for husbands and they do not care where they are from as long as they are pious, practicing Muslims who will treat them kindly.

In the end the person you marry is naseeb, and until that person comes along you must be patient and accept Allah's plan.

Salaams.

Wa alaikum Salaam,

Let me first say that it takes a lot of patience and understanding here on this website even though this is a website and none of us has seen each other just by the very fact that we can have a somewhat civil discussion is miraculous. What upsets me on this website is when people take my words out of context and use them for their own illogical assertions. Let me first address to Mishmish illogical assrtion.

Sister with all due respect let me say that what you posted about what I say in conjuction to us "brothers reflecting the very prejudices of our Ummah" is not only unwarranted but totally wrong. Mishmish if you asked sister Ummziba all of my post reflect the realism of society and how we as individuals, not as an Ummah must change it. Before we can change our social infrastructure we must individually change ourselves. I neevr said specifically that all cultures in Islam are against reverts I don't know where you got that crap from, because it is what it is crap!

It appears I can't be sympathetic to people here because I highly dislike it when people just brisk through  what I read and assert things that I totally did not say. Secondly Candor is obviously an ignorant Muslim hands down. I use the word ignorant because obviously for any Muslim to allocate a specific cultures qualities with those who revert to their primordial faith is obviously ignorant of the true spirituality of Islam. Most of those who respond here are absent of the ole philosophical subject: logic.

My whole point here was not to post some complaining on why this is this, and why that is that. My whole point here was to discuss the reality of our world and how ignorance parades through our community unknown. This subject has nothing to do with reverts and non-reverts. This has something to do with our own socialogical dysfunctions and how we should combat it. True we are all entitled to our opinion but what we must do prior to stating our opinions is "GET ALL THE FACTS" sister Mishmish disappointing that you overlooked all that I said and the only thing you can state about anything what I said was something totally different. Perhaps you are carrying over comments in the women's section. Actually I haven't even gone back to that subject because I chose not to continue the discussion perhaps you are carrying what you said to here I don't know just making an assertion like you did here.

Some of you may look at my age and say I haven't even known 1/3 of life yet but living in a country which of course was not by choice, you learn a few things. Living in Islam you obviously learn more things and practicing it, you learn a lot! On this subject here (which I like to bring everyone back to) its knwon here that racism is not the very top of our discussion. The only thing I can say I admire about the Nation of Islam is that it discusses racism on a real level. Although I don't agree with their inital philosophy on spirituality I agree that racism starts with human beings (of course they have their own brand where racism start but I only took what they implied).

Racism in culture starts with the individual and until we change the individual and our perspective on life only then we can notice any differences within our community. Sometimes it takes the "out of the box" approach by us to do that. Look at Rosa Parks. Not too many Muslims here give her her due but if we can take anything in our time from that individual we can say that she went above and beyond off one simple act. It took a woman, an African-American woman to say "no!" in defiance of the law to change history and that she did. Of course there are others to mention but point being here is that it starts with us.

We Muslims here complain about the war in Iraq, Iran, Syria and any country with a high Arab population but what about Sudan? Ethiopia? Malaysia? We have problems in other areas yet we focus on Arab states. We focus on Pakistan yet we dont focus on Muslim women being raped by Arab militas. Hmmm I see a pattern here. Not point figers at cultures but I'm saying that there is a pattern of where our priorities are as a community. We can talk about Bush all day long but the thing is until we equip ourselves with knowledge and of true Islamic principles only then we can acheive that enlightenment where our society changes. As for Candor and Muslims like him they will always win so long as we Muslims keep looking elsewhere......Yes I have a lot to say here because I'm sick of Muslims picking each other apart rather than supporting...I take this approach because I'm sick of people overlooking all what I say and only using parts of what I say. I write a lot so why dont you read!!!

Israfil wrote:  Now unfortunately centuries later there are still racial tensions in our community. In regards to choosing a mate a lot of cultures mostly Eastern and South asian culture tend to instill this cultural endogamy upon their children. If a daughter decides to marry a white man even if he shares the same faith I've seen that has become a problem. The question is why?

Brother, I don't think I said that you stated ALL cultures, but above is what you did state. Perhaps I am wrong, but this does seem to be pointing a finger at a specific group of people and claiming that they act in a specific manner. Is this not the very definition of prejudice? That they act a certain way, have certain mannerism, etc...I'm sure I don't need to go into any cliches.

You say that they are prejudice against certain groups because they are different in some manner, but by pointing out the specific groups as you have done,  you are doing exactly what you accuse them of doing.

Israfil wrote: We Muslims here complain about the war in Iraq, Iran, Syria and any country with a high Arab population but what about Sudan? Ethiopia? Malaysia? We have problems in other areas yet we focus on Arab states. We focus on Pakistan yet we dont focus on Muslim women being raped by Arab militas. Hmmm I see a pattern here. Not point figers at cultures but I'm saying that there is a pattern of where our priorities are as a community. We can talk about Bush all day long but the thing is until we equip ourselves with knowledge and of true Islamic principles only then we can acheive that enlightenment where our society changes. As for Candor and Muslims like him they will always win so long as we Muslims keep looking elsewhere......Yes I have a lot to say here because I'm sick of Muslims picking each other apart rather than supporting...I take this approach because I'm sick of people overlooking all what I say and only using parts of what I say. I write a lot so why dont you read!!!

Assalamu Alaikum Brother:

I did read what you wrote. Have you read what you wrote? You say that you are sick of Muslims picking each other apart, yet you spent the entire paragraph doing just that.

I am not sure what the point of your posts are. You make very sweeping statements and generalisations, yet when someone questions these or answers you with a different opinion you become upset. Are you wanting someone to agree with you that there is prejudice? I agree, there is prejudice. But not everyone is prejudiced and not everyone has shared your experiences.

Assalamu Alaikum Brother:

Let me clarify what I stated in a logical manner so that you might better understand what I meant.

1. You stated: "In regards to choosing a mate a lot of cultures mostly Eastern and South asian culture tend to instill this cultural endogamy upon their children."   In this statement you are specifically mentioning a group of people: Eastern and South Asian, and stating that they perform a specific task: instill this cultural endogamy upon their children. By choosing this specific group of people to make this statement about, you are in effect stereotyping Eastern and South Asians. Stereotyping by it's very nature is prejudicial: Muslims are terrorists, Arabs are oppressors of women, Eastern and South Asians are exclusive of other cultures... etc... thus my statement that you are doing the very thing about which you are complaining.

2. You stated: Yes I have a lot to say here because I'm sick of Muslims picking each other apart rather than supporting...  By picking each other apart the assumption is: they are harsh, they are judgemental, they point out each others shortcomings and faults, etc.... Yet, here is the content of the paragraph in which you wrote this statement:

We Muslims here complain about the war in Iraq, Iran, Syria and any country with a high Arab population but what about Sudan? Ethiopia? Malaysia? In this sentence you are inferring that Muslims do not care about countries where the population is not Arab.

We have problems in other areas yet we focus on Arab states. The same as above.

We focus on Pakistan yet we dont focus on Muslim women being raped by Arab militas. In this sentence you are inferring that Muslims find the problems of Pakistan of more importance than that of the Muslim women being raped, I am assuming in Sudan.

Hmmm I see a pattern here. The pattern being that Muslims care only for certain cultures within the Islamic Community?

Not point figers at cultures but I'm saying that there is a pattern of where our priorities are as a community. Here, by stating that you do not wish to point fingers at cultures you are doing just that, then infer that the priorities of the Community lie only within certain cultures.

We can talk about Bush all day long but the thing is until we equip ourselves with knowledge and of true Islamic principles only then we can acheive that enlightenment where our society changes. Here you are inferring that the Muslim Community in general is not knowledgeable of true Islamic principles, and spends time in idle talk. 

As for Candor and Muslims like him they will always win so long as we Muslims keep looking elsewhere..... Here you name a specific person and group of Muslims that somehow fall short of the Muslim ideal.

In each of these sentences you have pointed out a  shortcoming, fault, or been judgemental of your fellow Muslims. In fact, when you state you are: sick of Muslims picking each other apart rather than supporting...   you are pointing out another fault of Muslims. Isn't this pointing out of faults, shortcomings, and actually naming of fellow Muslims picking them apart? Something that you state you are sick of other Muslims doing?

3. In response to my earlier post where I stated: But Brothers, you talk about the injustice of the Ummah today and the prejudices within it, yet your posts reflect these very prejudices. Israfil with his notions that other cultures in Islam are against reverts, and Candor with his weak Westerners remark. Both show the very thing that they are complaining against., you wrote: "I neevr said specifically that all cultures in Islam are against reverts I don't know where you got that crap from, because it is what it is crap!"      The tone in which you responded in this sentence and the language you used causes me to assume that you were upset/unhappy/offended at what I wrote. this is why I wrote that you were upset because I posted a different opinion.

4. You wrote: "True we are all entitled to our opinion but what we must do prior to stating our opinions is "GET ALL THE FACTS" sister Mishmish disappointing that you overlooked all that I said and the only thing you can state about anything what I said was something totally different."   I believe I have all of the facts as I am in fact using the words that you yourself wrote, copying them directly from your posts.  I have not overlooked anything, nor am I referring to any other forum on which you might have posted, but rather what you have written here.

Sister funny you posted a comment I made in another forum here to justify some point you are making. I'd love to contradict and dissect your post ehrer but there really is no point derailing the discussion. However I'd like to point out one remark you used to justify a comment you made here:

You mentioned my point in the first paragraph above:

"In regards to choosing a mate a lot of cultures mostly Eastern and South asian culture tend to instill this cultural endogamy upon their children."   In this statement you are specifically mentioning a group of people: Eastern and South Asian, and stating that they perform a specific task: instill this cultural endogamy upon their children. By choosing this specific group of people to make this statement about, you are in effect stereotyping Eastern and South Asians. Stereotyping by it's very nature is prejudicial: Muslims are terrorists, Arabs are oppressors of women, Eastern and South Asians are exclusive of other cultures... etc... thus my statement that you are doing the very thing about which you are complaining.

Sister No offense but do you know what endogamy means?

It means to marryw ithin one's own tribal (or own group). This can pertain not only to tribes but cultures etc. Although you've mentioned this at the bottom of your paragraph I don't think you understood the true reasoning why I posted that. It's not a stereotype if it is fact. I can prove it to you. Most countries which do not have a diverse population let's say Saudi Arabia.

Most of the known inhabitants that are there who have married within their own tribal/cultural group for generations upon generations eventually develope an inherent cultural philosophy based on culture and family. If one immigrates to another country where the society is different and multicultural the individual however amazed to a multicultural society still retains that inherent cultural philosophy of endogamy which as you stated is "exclusive" most culture from that reason feel more comfortable being "with their own" because of share cultural traditions etc. This is a proven fact and not a stereotype because the same can be said by us who have been born of a multicultural society! We would be more open minded and tend to look beyond culture (however its not always evident in all people).

Again sister read my logic because its ell proven. Secondly when I attribute to the Muslim community I mentioned those individuals who still retain that cultural endogamous philosophy I find it a contradictory element to Islamic principles because how can one follow Islamic guidence if one believes in the philosophy of cultural exclusivism in regards to marriage and family? Thus the topic here! I dont think you'll get my point but all I ask for you is to contemplate and if you dont believe me travel abroad and do empirical research for yourself you'll know what I mean. Reverts have hard times marrying those of those countries (middle Eastern South/Asian) because the elements of those philosophies exist because that's all they know.

I'm sure some would say: "If that is the case how are they wrong?" They are wrong because they cannot mix an exclusive ideology with another ideology which is inclusive religiously and culturally which is Islam.

Assalamu Alaikum Brother:

Exclusive: Singled out in preference: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/choice - choice , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/chosen - chosen , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/elect - elect , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/select - select . See http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/category/choice - choice , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/category/include - include

Not diffused or dispersed: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/concentrated - concentrated , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/intensive - intensive , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/undivided - undivided , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/unswerving - unswerving , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/whole - whole . See http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/category/collect - collect , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/category/edge - edge , http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/category/part - part

I think sometimes people see what they want to see. I live in an area of the US which has a very large Muslim population. I would say that 98% of the married Western reverts are married to Muslims from Middle Eastern/Asian/South Asian countries. All of the American women reverts that I personally know have husbands from these countries. All of them, and it does not matter what race or ethnicity these Sisters are. Most of the American male reverts have wives from these cultures. A large number of the African American brothers have actually gone overseas to Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, etc, and returned with wives.

There are multi-cultural marriages everywhere within the Muslim population, just look around. I would venture to say that most of the married Western reverts who post here are married to someone from the Middle East or Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc...

As for your assertion that I will not get the point of your topic, you are correct. Not in that I don't understand your posts, however philosophically deep you might believe them to be, but rather I do not get your reason for posting this topic at all if you feel that no one here will understand the point and you argue with anyone who doesn't agree with you. You keep repeating that what you are saying is proven fact, so what is the point? If it is a proven fact, then why even bring the subject up. A fact is a fact and continually bringing it up will not change it.

If you feel that this proven fact is at odds with Islamic principles, then why not go out amongst the Ummah and work to change what you see as a serious problem? In fact, Islamically that is your duty. If you see an injustice, you should speak out against it.

Mishmish you say 98% of the reverts in the States (in the section where you live) live in multi-cultural relationships. Great! But out of how many immigrants do the United States get per year? Hundreds of thousands (not singling one group but in groups of thousands) I would assume the 98% of the western rveerts that are in, interracial relationship is a fraction of a small population when you measure the grand Muslim community. That's not a very big population if you ask me perhaps its about %1 of the billion Muslims.

You ask that I repitiously say that this is proven fact and yes it is proven fact and I will keep saying this ere because this is a serious issue. You make it seem that because your community is diverse that there is no problem with race. I find that laughable. ecause United states doesn't practice slavery doesn't mean racism doesn't go on in the U.S because it does frequently.

My point being is that racism and the issue with the marriage/family unit is an issue that I find really important. Of course some here may not think so because so here from others countries don't experience it on grand scale as we do here in the U.S. By the way sister how do you know I haven't done anything already here with my MSA (Muslim Student Association) and haven't done any awareness programs? You may assume all you want there but I've done plenty on my end physically here with my uiversity, what have you done? I come here because not all here are aware that this is an issue.

Again let me remind you since the evolution of tribal warfare racism has existed long before Muhammad and long before prophets in the Qur'an with the exception of Adam. This is another issue in which we can repair within our social infrastructure. I find this to be a good discussion because marriage and family is the other half of our Iman so why do I bring it up here that's why? If you wish not to read repiritious post I suggest you keep yourself blind to this truth and not respond if that is what you wish. By the way how do I argue with someone who doesn't agree. There is nothing to argue here because frankly most thinking Muslims agree that racism is one of the social issues of our community.

You may bring up great examples of reverts and stuff who marry outside their culture but remember we live in the United States where pockets of immigrants have not choice but to acclimate to the American culture here. Some culture is bound to get mixed up with another culture. But again this is less than a percent of theMuslims in the world. Now let me say if those who you know who have marriage others from the Middle East I wonder if they would have the same luck going to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Bangladesh in hopes of finding a husband or wife in a deely rooted culture and tell meif they find the same results....

Sister FYI by your early post with your definition obviously you dont know what endogamy is...let me help you out (and this is with sincerity not being sarcastic here)

endogamy One entry found for endogamy. < name=entry =/cgi-bin/dictionary method=post> < = value=endogamy name=hdwd>< = value=endogamous name=listword>< = value=Dictionary name=book> Main Entry: en�dog�a�my javascript popWin'/cgi-bin/audio.pl?endoga01.wav=endogamy'"> Pronunciation: en-'d�-g&-mE Function: noun : marriage within a specific group as required by custom or law - en�dog�a�mous javascript popWin'/cgi-bin/audio.pl?endoga02.wav=endogamous'"> /-m&s/ adjective

Assalamu Alaikum Brother:

I actually do know the meaning of the word endogamy, but I felt as though it was not the precise word that was needed as used within the reference of your post as the Muslim Ummah as a whole are endogamous regardless of their culture since they primarily choose to marry within the Islamic Community. I personally found the word exclusive to be a more correct definition of what you are trying to state.

In answer to: "You may assume all you want there but I've done plenty on my end physically here with my uiversity, what have you done?"  First, I haven't assumed anything and I have done nothing in regards to this issue because I don't see it to be the overwhelming problem that you see it to be.

There is prejudice everywhere there is ignorance. You can lead a person to enlightenment, but you cannot make them accept it. Even within the so-called multicultural societies prejudice is very apparent. Just look at what is happening in France right now with the North Africans and Muslims. Paris was once called the City of Enlightenment, and African Americans from the US went there to live in the early 20th century to escape oppression. Now the country has disenfranchised these young people to such an extent that they are running amok.

It appears this is something that you are somewhat obsessed with, for whatever reason, and no matter how many examples people bring forth of intercultural marriage, or what reasoning they give you for not wanting to marry a specific person or even not wanting their child to marry a specific person, you will see it as a matter of bias. I think no reason will be good enough for you. Maybe you should look within to see why this is such a huge issue for you personally.

What I know for a fact, is that everything good that happens to us and everything bad that happens to us is our naseeb. Whoever you marry, that is the person you were meant to marry, and you have to be patient until that time comes. If a woman is meant for you, then nothing will stop her from becoming your wife.

Well this is not an issue I'm solely "obsessed" with. I could talk about the Iraqi war and the U.S and west bashing but I tend to find those topics redundant. I find this (racism and marital relationships) interesting and important as I have said earlier, because they are issues that reflect our social infrastructure. Again sister if you are content with the state of affairs then by all means think in that way. Besides racism, the whole point here is that we need to change ourselves individually. as you mention about being leaders and such its hard being a leader when centuries of ignorance has plagued the  minds of people. Look how long people truly accepted Islam in Arabia! It took a short time but in the hearts of the converts in Arabia I'm sure the comfort wasn't there.

Point being here as you mentioned that ignorance is everywhere thus the spread of racism and prejudicial beliefs, but its that same ignorance that also occupies the minds of the individuals who believe it doesn't exist either. In a further response to your statement regarding the term endogamous is rather the appropriate term since it specifically implies the act of marriage. To be exclusive is broad and can reflect many things sister.

When did I say racism is not a serious problem?

I said that there are problems which are even more serious besetting the Ummah. They have to be solved first. 

Any non-trivial attempt to resolve the issues relating to racism will result in creation  (at least, initially,) of greater divisions amongst Muslims which the external enemies of the Muslim can exploit to their own advantage. I will prefer status quo to be maintained until Muslims ward off external threats.

Besides, racism exist in the Ummah mainly in the form of sectarian discrimination (such as shia-sunni conflict etc.) wherein Muslims belonging to the same race are not at peace with each other  because they follow different "versions" of Islam. It is naive not to distinguish it from racial discrimination. In my country, bald men and dark women find it hard to find spouses, but that cannot be called "racial" discrimination because they can be found in any of the various races of the people living here.

Israfil wrote: You may bring up great examples of reverts and stuff who marry outside their culture but remember we live in the United States where pockets of immigrants have not choice but to acclimate to the American culture here. Some culture is bound to get mixed up with another culture.

I don't know the reason why other Muslims don't marry outside their culture in america. But, if I would (ever) to immigrate to U.S to work, I won't certainly like to assimilate in to the American culture and neither would I want my progeny to do that. I would expect to return back, along with my family, to my country when condns. back home get better. And I would want my progenies to marry Muslims from their own community, so that while returning home, they all return home together (and not get globally dispersed by settling in countries of their spouses).

But again this is less than a percent of theMuslims in the world. Now let me say if those who you know who have marriage others from the Middle East I wonder if they would have the same luck going to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Bangladesh in hopes of finding a husband or wife in a deely rooted culture and tell meif they find the same results....

Candor when you say "there are more serious problems besettling the Ummah besides racism" that is equivalent of saying racism is not as important as other issues when that is the issue. Secondly, racism is not sectarism. Candor I'm sure sure of your scholastic background but Shias and Sunnis are not distinctive races as there are Arab Sunnis and Arabs Shiites so where you got Sectarian classes as a type of racism is amusing to me. Thirdly to assume that the Muslim community will "war off" racist belief itself is idealistic but its not plausible. That's like saying the ignorant will stop being ignorant unless the ignorant realizes he is ignorant. That is ridiculous! Those who exercise prejudice may not believe they are prejudice so how can you say they will solve the issue themselves if they are unaware?

Forthly on this matter when I discuss racism I don't mean the isolation of a Muslim versus a Non-Muslim (which you seem to show in your post) I mean within the muslim community i.e A Muslim Arab racist against A Muslim Pakistani e.t.c

This exist not only in the sectarian communities but also around the world because my main argument here was that there are some cultures who sustain their belief in ethnocentrism when they come to America some do and some don't. Regardless my understanding of Islamic principle is that this type of belief contradicts the philosophy prophet Muhammad left for the Muslim Community.

Candor I don't know what you mean by you wouldn't allow your progeny to marry (or settle in America) because of your limited views are not understandable to which classes of people you refer to? Are you saying Muslims of America? Or non-Muslims? Or i they are Muslims they must be of you race or which is it? Either way it sounds ignorant to me, please ellaborate. It's not surprising that from the last few post you written that you showed your ignorance against American Muslims so again please ellaborate....

Israfil wrote: Candor when you say "there are more serious problems besettling the Ummah besides racism" that is equivalent of saying racism is not as important as other issues when that is the issue.

Poverty and political instability are greater issues for most of the Muslims. And in India I haven't faced any  serious racial discrimination by the Muslims here. Some Muslims have sometimes called me names but not really racially discriminated against me.

Secondly, racism is not sectarism. Candor I'm sure sure of your scholastic background but Shias and Sunnis are not distinctive races as there are Arab Sunnis and Arabs Shiites so where you got Sectarian classes as a type of racism is amusing to me. Thirdly to assume that the Muslim community will "war off" racist belief itself is idealistic but its not plausible. That's like saying the ignorant will stop being ignorant unless the ignorant realizes he is ignorant. That is ridiculous! Those who exercise prejudice may not believe they are prejudice so how can you say they will solve the issue themselves if they are unaware?

I assumed that you believe that the word 'racism' encompasses all types of discrimination. Therefore, the confusion.

 

Forthly on this matter when I discuss racism I don't mean the isolation of a Muslim versus a Non-Muslim (which you seem to show in your post) I mean within the muslim community i.e A Muslim Arab racist against A Muslim Pakistani e.t.c

I meant the same thing earlier.

I don't know of any racial discrimination that exists among Muslims within India. But I have heard that Mohajirs (i.e,Muslims who migrated to Pakistan at the time of partn. of India in 1947) face some discrimination in Pakistan, but you can confirm it through any Mohajir you might know that its not a big issue for them.  

However, Pakistani Army did commit excesses against the Bangladeshis, who were Muslims. But the impression I have got from chatting with some of the Bangladeshis is that they don't hate/blame the people of Pakistan for that. Pakistanis claim that they don't hate Bengalis, either.

About the Arabs, there are very few around here therfore I can't say. Indian Muslims and Pakistanis who go to Gulf states face discrimination while searching for jobs (i.e. locals are preferred over them) from the government, but that is natural because they are not the citizens of the same State.

 

 

About my views on racism that exist amongst Muslims currently, let me explain it to you through an analogy. During the World Wars, English and Germans used to hate each other and those of opposite lineages/descent living in their country were suspected and thus, racially discriminated against. However, once the War was over Germans were freely accepted in America and Australia as immigrants but not the people with dark skin.

 

I believe, currently racism among Muslims does not exist in more serious form than it existed between Germans and the English during the World Wars.

That is, Muslims mostly racially discriminate against fellow Muslims only at times of war (rarely, otherwise).

-------------
Courage is not absence of fear.
Smoking is injurious to health.
Bigger is the gun, smaller is the brain.
Intelligence=Knowledge+Imagination.

I consider it relevent to post in this thread that when there was a war in Rwanda http://www.mpac.org/world_article_display.aspx?ITEM=251 - Hutu Muslims saved their Tutsi Muslim neighbours while Hutu non-Muslims betrayed their Tutsi neighbours .

Assalamu Alaikum

It never ceases to amaze me how people go about justifying putting cultural and traditions above Islam.  It is clear in both the Qur�an and the life of the Prophet that the one and only true criteria of marriage is the condition of a person�s deen.  To place other conditions prior to that is to go against the basic principles of Islam.

Brother Candor, why is it okay to come to the US to take advantage of the economy but not allow your offspring to marry a good Muslim in the US?  If the US Muslim community and American way of life is not good enough for your family, then there is something seriously wrong about thinking its money is any better.  If the society is corrupt, don�t you think that any money you would obtain from that society would therefore not be halal for you?  It is clear in Islam that immigration and migration for reasons other than Islam are not truly worth seeking.

Brother Israfil, I beseech you to consider the possibility that the problem is not rooted in race but rather in cultural customs/traditions.  One of the most horrible sicknesses facing the Ummah today is placing local customs/traditions above Islam.  Most people are so accustomed to doing so that they are deaf, dumb and blind to it.  Although I have see cases of some Muslim men who marry outside of their culture, it is very rare to see a Muslimah do this.  For some reason, I think the Ummah has been confused in believing that since Muslimat are not allowed to marry Christians or Jews but Muslim men are, that it means Muslimat also should not marry outside their tight little Ummah within their community.  I honestly don�t think this is because it is what the Muslimat want, but rather, more of a demand on them by their families.  That is why arranged marriages still exists so widely in Islamic communities despite the fact that it is forbidden in Islam.  And it is also why we see �honor killings� in Islamic communities in many parts of the world as well.

Just as racism is a means of control, what you see in the Ummah with respect to marriage is also.  And just as racism is wrong, so is what happens in way too many cases within the Ummah.  Allah gives us clear signs as to what is right and wrong for the Ummah but some humans are inevitably unwilling to see.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Khadija

"It is clear in Islam that immigration and migration for reasons other than Islam are not truly worth seeking."

Would you be kind enough, since; "it is clear in islam", to site your evidence for your statement?  Seems to me economics, ie., feeding one's family, is a worthy and honorable pursuit.  Further, education would be another good reason.

"....why is it okay to come to the US to take advantage of the economy but not allow your offspring to marry a good Muslim in the US."

These are separate issues, one having nothing to do with the other in my opinion.

Abuayisha, it is clear in both the Qur�an and Hadith that migration for anything less than for the sake of Allah will not be rewarded by Allah. 

Those who believe and migrate and strive in the Way of Allah can expect Allah's mercy. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (2:218)

The angels ask those they take while they are wronging themselves, 'What were your circumstances?' They reply, 'We were oppressed on earth.' They say, 'Was Allah's earth not wide enough for you to have migrated elsewhere in it?' The shelter of such people will be Hell. What an evil destination! (4:97)

Those who migrate in the Way of Allah will find many places of refuge on the earth and ample sustenance. If anyone leaves his home, migrating to Allah and His Messenger, and death catches up with him, it is Allah Who will reward him. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (4:100)

As for those who migrate for Allah's sake after being wronged, We shall give them good lodging in this world, and the reward of the hereafter is greater still if they only knew. (16:41)

Now if we turn to the Hadith regarding the issue of migration we see the following:

Narrated By �Umar bin Al-Khattab:  I heard Allah�s Apostle saying, �The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended.  So whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for.�  (Hadith 001 of Vol 1, Book 1, Shahi Bukhari) (This hadith is repeated several times.)

It is clear that if the person is not migrating of emigrating for the sake of Allah, then he/she is migrating or emigrating for the sake of what he migrated or emigrated for such as worldly gain, education or even marriage.  The reward is what you get here on earth and not a reward given by Allah.  You may believe that some things are worthy reasons for migrating or emigrating but I beseech you to adhere to the wisdom of the Qur�an and Hadith because it is clear that what we perceive to be good for us with respect to migrating may indeed not be.

Narrated by Abu Zuhair:  I heard Allah�s Apostle saying, �Yemen will be conquered and some people will migrate (from Medina) and will urge their families, and those who will obey them to migrate (to Yemen) although Medina will be better for them; if they but knew.  Sham will also be conquered and some people will migrate (from Medina) and will urge their families and those who will obey them, to migrate (to Sham) although Median will be better for them; if they but knew.  �Iraq will be conquered and some people will migrate (from Medina) and will urge their families and those who will obey them to migrate (to �Iraq) although Medina will be better for them; if they but knew.�  (Hadith 099 of Vol 3, Book 30, Shahi Bukhari) (This hadith is also repeated several times.)

So, do I think that migrating for the mere sake of economics and/or education is un-Islamic, yes I do.  Am I saying that feeding one�s family and education are not of importance, of course not.  But we should be careful when choosing to migrate or emigrate because we too might not know what is �better� for us.  Migrating for the sake of economics, education or even marriage alone my place us at risk of losing something which is of far greater value to us if only we could see things more clearly.

Abuayisha, you have the right to see the world as you choose to see it even if doing so fragments it; however, I prefer to see all things as they relate to Allah and as far as I can see in both the Qur�an and Hadith no part of our life as Muslims if free from our responsibilities to Allah through Islam

"Abuayisha, you have the right to see the world as you choose to see it even if doing so fragments it; however, I prefer to see all things as they relate to Allah and as far as I can see in both the Qur�an and Hadith no part of our life as Muslims if free from our responsibilities to Allah through Islam"

May Allah, Most High, reward you for seeking to live according to Quran and Sunnah, however what you have presented as evidence is not supportive of your statement;

"It is clear in Islam that immigration and migration for reasons other than Islam are not truly worth seeking."

  I do not want to derail this thread with hijrah issues, but economics (trade), education,  ability to practice our faith, and dawah allow us to live in Western countries.  Maybe a thread on hijrah would be more appropriate for further discussion.

Bismillah

Assalamu'alaikum.

With regards to most recent posts in this thread, I think we should look at what Islam stands for.. and then look at the concept of migration for the sake and reasons of Islam. Marriage, business, education may well represent Islam, provided there is sincere intention and faith in Allah.

As'Salaamu Alaikum Wa' Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh!

Salaam guys thought I stopped by just to say that I've sent PM's to the following PM's to sister Khadijah and Candor. Although I'm techinically here back and forth I'm currently not participating in any discussions however I'd like those people to respond.

MOCKBA wrote: Bismillah Assalamu'alaikum. With regards to most recent posts in this thread, I think we should look at what Islam stands for.. and then look at the concept of migration for the sake and reasons of Islam. Marriage, business, education may well represent Islam, provided there is sincere intention and faith in Allah.

Brother MOCKBA,

I agree with that.  If the reason for migration is for the sake of Allah then there is no problem and the person will be rewarded accordingly.  However, one cannot simply say that their mirgration for economic gain, marriage or education is for the sake of Allah.  As you pointed out, their intention must be in the right place; i.e., that in doing so, it is for the sake of Allah, a means to enhance their deen.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Khadija

Salaam all!

Just wanted to stop by because Sister Khadija and Candor have yet to reply to me via PM, but then I thought, that perhpas your inbox too was full. A couple things I wanted to add. To Sister Khadija in your inital message to me you mentioned that its not racism that plagues the Ummah its cultural influences. Althought that maybe true such influences that are culturally influenced can transform into racism, thus there is no dissimilarities between something that is culturally influence for the sake of that type of bias then flat out having a racist mindset.

Candor you mentioned that it's not racism that plagues Islam is poverty and lack of education. In actuality racism and breed both poverty andlack of education, look at the caste system in India. Although its not racist per say it is a type of system which pressuposes a type of prejudice to a specific class. On a similar level the same with America history has shown that the European leaders in the history of America have constantly kept minorities from empowering themselves with education and rather used drugs as a substitute goal.

This type of behavior has destroyed the will of some potential pioneers and thus have spawned a generation of people who either have the desire to acheive better or to acheive worse. The problem here what I see is that not many here have experienced racism to its fullest affect and therefore some of you have biases on what's important to the Ummah.

Sister Mishmish believes womens issues superceed racism (which is scary since racism and sexism are too important issues practicially on the same level of importance) Candor believs poverty and education are more important because racism is not as a high level dilemma using the analogy of the Germans and the Americans (a really poor analogy at that...). sister Khadija coins this as a type of cultural bias (which on the same note breeds racism thus there is no dissimilarity here).

Modern Islam of today is cultural. Let's face it we have a domninant class (Sunni Arabs) and minority classes who use their culture to influence their own way of practicing Islam. We wear clothing which historically relates back to a similar dress of the Bedouin Arabs. We have women getting hennah tattoos which the art itself is an Middle Eastern Sotuh Asian custom. We are all involved in culture. Because of this our social stigmas in pertaining to others are also influences of us as a people, family and our children. When we use our own cultural philosophies to internalizes certain descisions we make towards others we at the same time dissintergrate the core teachings of Islam.

Mishmish wrote: It appears this is something that you are somewhat obsessed with, for whatever reason, and no matter how many examples people bring forth of intercultural marriage, or what reasoning they give you for not wanting to marry a specific person or even not wanting their child to marry a specific person, you will see it as a matter of bias. I think no reason will be good enough for you. Maybe you should look within to see why this is such a huge issue for you personally.

I am also tired of silly PMs he writes to me (although, I don't reply to tem). and considering that he calls me ignorant and insults brother Ahmadinejad, I will try my hands on guessing what he is. Considering the discussion in this thread he has probably been dumped by some Asian or "bornt Muslim" girl and blames it on racism of the girl instead of accepting his own lameness.

With jerks like him in the police force, his city does not need criminals.

Israfil wrote: Sister Mishmish believes womens issues superceed racism (which is scary since racism and sexism are too important issues practicially on the same level of importance)

Brother, I believe that when women in "Islamic" countries and cultures are being mutilated by circumcision, when women in Afghanistan died under the Taliban because they had no man to accompany them to a doctor or to go to work, when a woman's son has more authority over her life than she does, when women are being burned alive for more dowry money, when in most "Islamic" countries women do not even have the legal right to divorce even in cases of abuse, and when women are being killed for the sake of "honor" then these issues are more important than which culture will marry whom.

If the Ummah today does not treat one half of the Believers correctly and with the rights given to them by Allah, I am referring to women, then how do you expect the Ummah to treat individual cultures and ethnicities?

Allah made it very clear in the Quran that men and women are different but equal. The Prophet stressed the importance of women by stating that Jennah lies at the feet of your Mother, and that your Mother is three times more worthy of your love, yet within the Ummah women are treated quite badly by their Muslim Brothers, who should know better.

Before all of the Sisters get all up in arms and start defending the treatment of Muslim women, I am not saying all Muslim men are bad. But you have to take an honest look at the Muslim world today and see that things are not as they should be. Women have few legal rights, they are physically hurt and even murdered and little is done to stop it.

So yes, I do believe that physical violence and death are more important than cultural identity.

I would also like to add that I find the fact that you don't find this more important is scary.

Or perhaps it's indicative of the mindset of the Muslim male in the Ummah today. It's okay to set your wife on fire if her family can't afford to pay you more money for her dowry, but just make sure that the wife your setting afire is a good Asian girl....

Candor responded with the same ignorant statement....where do you guys get the impression that I was with an Asian girl? Is this a preconcieved notion that somehow Asians are in too deep with their culuture? Mishmish any rational person would clearly see sexual discrimination and racism as equal in regards to the stigma and the impression it has given humans for centuries. Secual discrimination is not more important than racism they are fairly equal.

For example African-americans in the early 1900's have experienced this for years specifically black women. Not only during slavery was the black woman raped by her slave master (for whateevr reason) and discriminated against sexually but she was also cast asided socially because of her culture again a rational person can see this.The examples you are mentioning are true and heart felt but those issues are not more important than racism.

sister I don't mean to call you ignorant or stupid but I don't appreciate so-called Muslims PMing me accusing me of something then making dumb remakrs as me marrying an Asian girl or being with one or being heart broken over one. Not only is it childish to assume about someone's personal life but shows the ignorance that is prevalent in Muslim society.

If she was not Asian then probably some other Muslim girl who was bornt into a Muslim family. Anyway, who cares.

And you stop sending me silly PMs, I will stop responding to them.

I doubt that women will unite and take up arms to improve the plight of Muslim women. Loyalty to gender is perhaps weakest of all loyalties.

Any scient Indian will surely acknowledge the pivotal role mother-in-laws plays in harassing the bride for dowry and mental torture of the father of the bride when his daughter is harassed for dowry.

Israfil wrote: Just wanted to stop by because Sister Khadija and Candor have yet to reply to me via PM

Then, who posted this. A hacker???

You are not just a liar, you are a dumb liar.

Brother israfil, I was not assuming you were with any girl. That was merely a fictitional example and had nothing to do with you personally.

I'm not alluding to something that took place in the 1900's but something that is happening to Muslim women everyday in the present. Just yesterday a Muslim man in the city of Agadir, Morocco got into an argument with his wife, he beat her unconcious, took her out into the country, poured gasoline on her and set her on fire. This happened one day ago, not 100 years ago. Where are all of the Muslim Brothers who claim to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet and the teaching of the Quran to stand up in the Ummah and say that this behavior is totally Haram and not to be tolerated in any way, shape, or form? Isn't it man's role to be the protectors of women?

Maybe I am ignorant Brother, but I cannot compare a woman being burned alive with a family not wanting to marry their child to someone of a different culture.

Perhaps you should look at the big picture of what is happening in the Ummah today and not just focus on what you obviously take as a personal affront. There are people dying. War, occupation, natural disasters, famine, genocide, poverty...these are just some of the conditions that Muslims are living in daily. Perhaps most Muslims don't see culturalism and ethnicity as a huge problem because they are just trying to survive on a daily basis and it's kinda hard to worry if your being the victim of racism if you are dodging bullets or digging in the sand for grains of rice.

Mish then obviously our opinions vary...As a philosopher I don't see any rationality in thinking one suffering is greater than another because the effect is still the same. I agree that most Muslims of other cultures who live in countries where racism isn't as prevanlent are perhaps ignorant to the world outside, but it exist nonetheless. Perhaps you should look at it at the point where those who have experienced racism come from.

Racism has existed long before girls were being buried in the dirt as it existed in the times of tribalism again is make this as a secondary reference. Mish I wish you would unerstand my point here. It's not to say what yuo you say is not true but on the contrary quite true. You also have to accept the fact that your comments regarding this issue is bias and that according to your experience YOU feel its more of an important issue more than racism but perhaps if you experienced it then maybe you'd be signing a different tune.

as for Candor my apologies that i used profanity in the form of acronymns. May Allah most merciful forgive me for that. Since I'm the adult person here I'm willing to accept my wrong you on the other hand I think differently. Mish I would hope you would comm ent more on the issue of racism as that was the point of me making this thread, if you can't then i guess our dialogue is finished. 

But I have experienced racism. I experience it almost daily as a Muslim woman who wears full hijab in the USA. I have been physically attacked by a woman in a supermarket the day after 9-11, I have been called names, I have been threatened by a whole truck full of white men who followed me and almost ran me off the road until I flagged over a police car.  I was denied a job because the interviewer asked me outright if I had to wear that "get-up" to work everyday if they hired me. I'm pretty sure no-one has ever asked you if you have to be black everyday if they hire you.

I have also experienced the prejudice of being a woman. Prejudice in this country where you have to become a sex-object to be accepted, and second class treatment by many Muslim men who think that women don't need to be heard, they must only listen.

So, I outscore you as I have two strikes against me to your one.

Bismillah,

I have read the thread and want to make a comment to you Israfil that responds to your original post.  I agree with a lot of things you and MishMish and Khadija said and some of what AbuAisha said.  I don't quite understand Candor.  But generally, we are all Muslim brothers and sisters, and we need to remember that always.  It is the love of our Allah, SWT, and His Holy prophets that unites us and will continue to do so.  Get mad, but get over it.

I just want to mention something that is a subtly present idea in this discussion, but bring it out openly.  A marriage involves the man and woman and their families and their communities and their races and their cultures and their nationalities. 

Here is my point:   So the second thing to consider after the compatibility of the woman and man is the compatibility of the families of the two.  Or maybe it should be jointly considered.  Most especially it would be vital to life's happiness to avoid a marriage in which the parents hated each other or either their son or daughter in law.  Marriage is a family affair.  Peaceful cooperation between these parties vitalizes and secures marriages.

You seem like a nice, although not perfect, young man.  ISA, you will find a compatible spouse soon.

Culture is a very wide topic.  For example, a southern man wants to marry a northern woman, both white, but his family can't relate to her because she is what they call a Yankee.  They love each other and are perfect for each other, but it won't be a good match because of the extreme hatred of this southern family for the Yankees! 

But this speaks to the compatiblity of the parents of the people wishing to marry, which is my main point.  Even though their cultures seemingly kept them apart, it was his family's actions and behavior that really would have made such a union really impossible.

Israfil, I am just saying to YOU that for your marriage to work, there are many factors you could consider, and her family and yours acceptance of one another is a vital component.

I wish I knew a girl suitable that I could recommend, but I don't know a lot of people anymore.  I tried to find someone for my obese, older friend, but everyone here thought it was a joke.  Who would want to marry an obese, bi-polar older intellectual?  Well, I'm going to post her information on  a marriage site anyway, ISA.

Can i just put this to Isa and Candor politely - Quit discussing your private messages in public!!!!

You either discuss the whole damn thing on the main discussion board or do it all in private, but can you quit moaning about whos not answered who and what whos said and how who replied!!!

And candor - Just because you are not aware of any racial issues in India does most certainly not mean they don't exist. Wih regards to interracial marriages - i believe the biggest set back is that ppl are afraid if they marry out of their casts(!)then,

A - The couple won't understand each other - because your marriages will more than likely be arranged therefore, you'll only meet a few times before the wedding.

B - The families will not get along as they have different rules culturally.

C - That the other person will in some way ruin your family and ppl will make comment and talk about you daughter etc...therefore they chose to make the comfortable decision - and no-one will point fingers.

Its silly really

herjihad wrote: I wish I knew a girl suitable that I could recommend, but I don't know a lot of people anymore.  I tried to find someone for my obese, older friend, but everyone here thought it was a joke.  Who would want to marry an obese, bi-polar older intellectual?  Well, I'm going to post her information on  a marriage site anyway, ISA.

Assalamu Alaikum Sister:

How sad that everyone thought you were joking. I personally know two Sisters who married through the Islamicity marriage site as I helped them post their info. One was in her 20's, one late 30's, both overweight but beautiful, Masha'Allah. They are both very happy and have been married for 7 years.

Insha'Allah you will find a husband for your friend. Just tell her to be patient and pray that Allah sends her what is the best for her.

Salaams.

Mishmish no offense sister but I thought your ending comment about I got two strikes to your one strike" kind of childish and I think anyone here who read that would agree. That is almost saying: I have more scars on my body than you" quite childish would you agree? Mishmish being chased or called name by qhite men because you are wearing Hijab is not racism that is religious discrimination and sexual discrimination but not racial discrimination. sister not to insult your intelligence but I'm more than happy to help define that for you.

Let us get something straight here since Mishmish likes to compare battle scars. I'm pretty sure me as an African-american have experienced more types of discrimination than you have and continued to do so. I'm sure as a black man for 400 years before you and your ancestors perhaps immigrated to the States (or wherever) have experienced discrimination since you wanna go there. I did research on my family tree and to my surprise came from a Muslim family West Africa (Sierra Leone) or known as "Ivory coast."

Guess who sold them to slavery? North African Muslim Arabs...LOL what was funny is that there was an actual document that the geneologist (I believe that is the correct term) had found because the slave that was sold was named Amir Abd'ullah (which is my great great geat................grandfather) who was sold by his owner whose name was Hossein, Ahmad Muhammad. I was astonished all this was documented! I don't know how this family immigrated to Morocco but eventually they fell into slavery and were sold to some European owneers who sold them to a family in Mississippi. From there I'm sure if you read your history book you'll know how and when slavery began.

My point here is that its not only ridiculous to compare battle scars but pointless. So for you to prove your point regaring sexual discrimination and gender issues as more important based on your experiences is ridiculous. All issues are important and none superceeds the others. I don't think you as a white woman (I assume this from your PM) understand this. I'm sure nobody here does understand the issues dealing with Black America and racial issues. Again I remind you even during the time of the prophet (and this is recorded in Hadith) Abu Jahl referred to Bilal as "Son of a slave woman." so yes racism even in the Muslim community is prevalent.

Sister Herjihad ou bring up a good point regarding culture, but what I referred to was not geographical culture i.e culture in where one lives but culture in regards to ethnicity and nationality and how these cultures interrelate. A souther white family and Northern white family I agree would have issues marrying their children to each other because of varying issues i.e religion, wealth etc. But if it was a black Southern Family trying to marrying their son/daughter with a White Northern Family I think the issue would even be more complex.

The White Southern family has a better chance than the black souther family just because of ethnic culture issues not just the religion wealth issues. that is my point and the same goes for Muslim immigrants marrying their son/daughter with Muslim Americans. Let me remind the room that ignoranceis ignorance and it exist within all cultures and the true nature of a Muslim is to see beyond cultural lines. Culture should not be the guideline for one wanting to get married. Remember the prophet said good works superceed all others as this is what Allah judges us on.

As for Muslim Friend here here! I appreciate someone seeing what I'm coming from. I appreciate the fact that someone addressed the issue with Candor's ignorant reply. Yes sister Herjihad we are all brothers and sisters in Islam but I reserve the right to excommunicate someone especially if he/she doesn't address me in the appropriate way as a Muslim. We as a community will never advance until we learn to deal with things.

Mishmish please read what I say and evaluate it and note evetything.

Historically, Muslims did dealt in slaves. But they didn't picked up a particular race for slavery. The Janissaries were mostly White (though, men form other races were also among them).  Thus, slavery practised by the Muslims cannot be called racist. I am not excusing the Muslims for practising slavery but just suggesting that the bigger picture should be looked into.

At the time of Prophet, Muslims had Arab slaves too, I think.

as for Candor my apologies that i used profanity in the form of acronymns

Nope, I didn't mind that at all. What else can be expected from your dirty culture where only sex and wine are important?

Muslim Friend wrote: And candor - Just because you are not aware of any racial issues in India does most certainly not mean they don't exist. Wih regards to interracial marriages - i believe the biggest set back is that ppl are afraid if they marry out of their casts(!)then, A - The couple won't understand each other - because your marriages will more than likely be arranged therefore, you'll only meet a few times before the wedding. B - The families will not get along as they have different rules culturally. C - That the other person will in some way ruin your family and ppl will make comment and talk about you daughter etc...therefore they chose to make the comfortable decision - and no-one will point fingers. Its silly really

How can discriminating on the basis of culture be called racism?? Conservative Muslims here won't like their children to marry even those Muslims who live here but have adopted Western culture or  Indian Muslims who have settled in the West.

Brother Israfil:

You are the one who stated that I was ignorant and didn't understand because I had never experienced prejudice or racism. Aren't you referring to your own experiences in stating that I can't understand because I haven't experienced what you have as an African American?

So, apparently it is not ridiculous for you to base your posts on your own experiences, just ridiculous if anyone else does so.

The difference between us is that I do not see myself as the constant victim. No one can have experienced anything as bad as you have, no one can truly understand your point of view,and anyone who disagrees is just ignorant, uneducated, or not schooled in the way of the great pontificator.

Well, I agree that there is prejudice within the Islamic Ummah, but it is not based merely on race or culture, and it also goes all ways. I told you about the African American brother who asked my Wali to meet me because he thought I was African American also, and when he discovered I was white he told me very forthrightly that he would never marry anyone except a black Muslim woman.

I could have taken this very personally and held a grudge against all African American Muslim men, but why would I want to do that based on one person's preferences. It was his right to marry whoever he wanted, whatever race or culture she happened to be. Was he racist in his remarks to me? Some people would think so, and I'm sure if he were Arab and I were African American and he said the same thing to me you would find it very offensive. But you didn't find it as offensive when I first told you this happened and the circumstances in the PM. In fact, you told me that it wasn't prejudice if he thought my name sounded black. I still have this message if you want me to post your exact words. Perhaps this didn't seem as offensive to you because he was African American and not from the Middle East or Asia.

My point is, it's all a matter of perspective. If you choose to see certain activities as prejudicial rather than a matter of personal preference, then that's your choice. Just as if you choose to see those who don't share your point of view as ignorant. That's your choice. Al HamdiAllah Allah has made us all different and given us all the ability to process information and activities in our own way. Some people choose to see the negative rather than the positive. That's your choice. 

Brother Candor:

You are right, at the time of the Prophet the Arabs had slaves from all races including Arab slaves. Race had very little to do with slavery at that time. Most slaves were captured in war or were sold into slavery or even sold themselves into slavery. Thus the slaves were often Christian or Jewish. One of the Prophet's wives was a Coptic slave named Mariam. I am not 100% sure if she was Egyptian, but most of the Coptics were from Egypt at that time.

One more note Brother Israfil, despite your kind offer to correct my English once again, I must state that these instances were definitely racially motivated.

When someone is shouting at you to go back where you came from you (curse word) terrorist, or following behind you and trilling, (like Arab women do at celebrations) and telling you to go back home Sand N_ _ _ _ _, there are definite racial overtones. Just because these morons were too ignorant to realize I was a white American doesn't mean that it is any less a case of racism.

Conservative Muslims here won't like their children to marry even those Muslims who live here but have adopted Western culture or  Indian Muslims who have settled in the West.

!  - what have you got to prove this point??!!

Mishmish may I suggest before we address each other say As'Salaamu Alaikum Wa' Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

Allah's blessing on you this day........Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays!

Ok now let us continue. First and foremost let me contradict your assertion that I am victimizing myself. You are wrong asserting that I consider myself as a continuous victim either that comment was made in the sense of a generalization towards me being a black person or you just assumed that, either way both are wrong. If I played as a victim I would have excuses for all my problems but that isn't how I was raised nor do I see the world in that light.

Secondly, I don't call you ignorant in the sense of lack of intelligence, or whether you disagree with me or because you have a low IQ. What I mean that you're ignorant of the plight of people of color in America as a history in general. But this had nothing to do with your intelligence.

Regarding the invidividual you mentioned both PM and here I believe I told you my view. First off its not prejusdice someone is interested in you because of your name its called misunderstanding, now if his inention was to be interested in you only because you sounded or because you look like a specific ethnic group then yes that is prejudice. When the African-American fellow who made the ignorant statement that he lost interest in you because your white is ignorance and if you saw my post earlier (like many others) you would find me saying racism/prejudice is prevalent in all societies and cultures.

What he said to you was not only ignorant and stupid but racist and that is my point. before we get off the subject here the whole reason why I made this thread was because I wanted to address the problem with racism/prejudice in the Muslim community. No I would say racism by itself is not the biggest problem in the world but its one of the biggest problems that all humans face so I believe it is an important issue to discuss.

I've heard some Muslims use the argument saying that Muslims are entitled to teach their kids the value of marrying within one's culture and that its nothing wrong with enstilling your children to marry within your own group. Let me remind those Muslims that for non-Muslim's that ideology is right and nothing wrong with that but for Muslims that is not an ideology associated with Islam. we as Muslims must be cognizant of the core teachings of Islam. When we submit its the psychological process we go through to allow our "free" minds to be taken over by the words of God.

One of the things the prophet mentioned before his death was that we excel each other not by our culture but by our works. Now one of the things some Muslim families fail in is that they teach cultural pride to their children but don't enstill the philosophy that any potential mate is worthy of union so long as they are good natured. Have we forgotten about that? Again let me address everyone and say that culture and pride is important but those qualities shouldn't be determinants for marriage clear thinking Muslims would agree.

Mishmish let me say that no suffering is greater than the other. The whole of the human race has suffered and none is greater than the other. I will again say yes women have suffered for so lon by the hands of ungrateful men, but the plight of women cannot be addressed as "greater" than the plight of those who have suffered from racism all of these are important issues. But my main point here was to discuss the issue with interracial marriages but if you wish to start a different thread in the men's section regarding the issue with women I'd be more than willing (Insha'llah so long as I'm here before break ends for us ) to discuss that with you.

I don't see negative quite the contrary. Unfortunately you don't know me as a person and don't have the luxury of knowing me and knowing what I like and dislike and knowing what kind of character I truly am you only know some of me here and vice versa. Let me also say that you mentioned that I believe its ridiculous for others to post their own experience no that is totally wrong. I say it's "ridiculous to compare one's suffering to another" in the sense of who has the most suffering like a game that to me is ridiculous.

Anyway I hope we can ove forward and come to some understanding from this issue Godwilling.

Waliakum Assalaam Brother:

I do not celebrate Christmas or the Holidays as the Prophet said the Believers have only two Eids, the Eid al Adha and the Eid al Fitr.

I can see that these posts are going nowhere, so I will just state once again: I acknowledge that there is prejudice within the Ummah. People are people no matter what their religious affiliation. Being a Muslim or reverting to Islam is not a magic wand that suddenly takes away all of our human faults. We are still the people we are, we are just shown a better path. Whether or not we choose to take that path is completely up to us, the individual. Allah merely gave us the rules to live by. If we follow the rules and do so with a clean heart and good intentions then we are rewarded by a Paradise beyond our wildest imaginings. If we don't follow the rules, then WE choose our own punishment. All we have to do follow the rules. Allah gave us the freedom to choose, and no-one can make someone choose something if they just don't want to. Unfortunately there are those who do not want to be racially, ethnically, or culturally inclusive. All of the talking in the world will not change their minds. Only they can change their minds and for many they don't see what they believe as wrong. You can point it out to them, but Brother, if Allah(SWT) their Creator has already pointed this out and they still choose to follow the path they want, then that is their sin and they must answer for it. There is no point in continously arguing or getting to a point where you are denigrating people and calling them names because then the sin is on you.

Mishmish point understood.

Mismish if I may, as your brother in Islam I would suggest to you in all goodness to practice on addressing the individual's remarks be it good or bad in accordance to what they exactly say and I will do the same for myself. You felt as if I denigrated you because I said you are "ignorant of racism" and according to the last post I've explained why I said that. you mentioned that we have choice. I understand that you believe people can freely choose whomever they want in regards to their spouse, but the point is we as Muslims must uphold the value of good character.

Yes I agree sometimes talking to some people it doesn't help and obviously here in this forum that truth is evident.  When we Muslims start evaluating those whom we mean to marry on the basis of their ethnicity or their wealth or what family they belong to we have in that moment, dissintergrate that core principle value that Quranic knowledge enstilled in us. the human species is composed of many classes of people from different walks of life and unfortunately not many families wish to share in that because of ethnocentric style philosophies.

I believe that talking sometimes does and doesn't help but I believe that the issue of discussing it is important nonetheless. I suggest to you Mishmish that you should focus on those issues which are important to you. As for me I'll kept discussing racism and other topics which need to be addressed. Again sister let me remind you that no injustice against a human is more important than  the other. We as people have experienced many things in life and we know from these negative experiences that the end result is the same: Negative.

Plain and simple......BW sister I understand the Christmas part but both Eid's are holidays themselves but I meant to say that gesture in the nices way possible to at least greet you with a salutation I wish you don't take everythingI say as analytical and personal.

Muslim Friend wrote: Conservative Muslims here won't like their children to marry even those Muslims who live here but have adopted Western culture or  Indian Muslims who have settled in the West. !  - what have you got to prove this point??!!

Discrimination based on culture is not racially motivated. People from the Indian sub-continent discriminate against people belonging to their own race, if they too have adopted the evil Western culture.

Brother Candor:

Where in India have they NOT adopted the "evil Western culture"? Everywhere in India the signs are in English as well as the native language. Men are wearing Western attire, as are some women, Bollywood is thriving, and American companies are relocating for the cheaper labor. Even you are posting on a chat room that is based in the United Kingdom.

Mishmish wrote: Brother Candor: Where in India have they NOT adopted the "evil Western culture"? Everywhere in India the signs are in English as well as the native language. Men are wearing Western attire, as are some women, Bollywood is thriving, and American companies are relocating for the cheaper labor. Even you are posting on a chat room that is based in the United Kingdom.

I doubt if you have ever come to India. But if you did, you have probably visited some metropolitan city. Usage of English language is the legacy of British coloniol rule, that was imposed on India. It has nothing to do with adopting Western culture.

And yes, people have been affected by the Western culture, but only marginally, not much, i.e., to the extent that most men wear Western dresses. Very few people have adopted Western culture fully. Working for american company does not mean adopting Western culture.  

I came to know about this site through IC. And I came across IC while I was searching about Islam on the Internet through google.

candor wrote: I doubt if you have ever come to India. But if you did, you have probably visited some metropolitan city. Usage of English language is the legacy of British coloniol rule, that was imposed on India. It has nothing to do with adopting Western culture.

I will agree with you on this.

One of the things that saddens me about humanity is that none of us really see the value of  each other's culture. We are taught from birth that our culture, our language and pride resides within our own people and we must keep such a chain alive by not intermixing. This was the thought of the early Jews in the Bible actually when they were taken out of Egypt. Similar we see the same philosophies carried on today. Ignorance knows no religion. We teach ourselves as well as our children that it is ok to judge base on cultural preference and hide it behind the term, "individual preference."

This is not some attempt to say "I'm hurt from my experience" but in actuality to show that even when we profess faith in the values of the Qur'an that we are still blinded by our own internal ignorances. We can perhaps take example from the various birds of earth. I'm confident that their language isn't about culture or what birds looks like whom, but the survival of the species. I have seen through experiments birds of different breeds mate with other birds etc without reluctance of any kind. Point? Point here is that we must think along the lines of being a species rather along the lines of wherther or not culture survives.

I believe that culture of any kind survives so long as that individual survives and one can be taught the beauty of that culture through the ambition to teach. Sometimes I feel as if I'm the only human that actually thinks this. Actually, I truly believe that it will take on catestrophic event to bring us all together and to go beyond the lines of culture. I'm pretty sure this event will come soon.

Assalamu Alaikum Family,

This is a very good topic; I think a man or woman should be able to marry any race of people they choose because love is color blind. I do not think arranged marriages are right either you need to know someone if your going to spend the rest of you life with them. I think this whole race issue is largely due to lack of knowledge of other cultures and people not being taught history correctly. It is also being influenced by Western White Supremacists thinking that dark is bad and white is pure and great. Just look at the dark countries of the world vs. the whiter countries of the world see it first hand

This is true and I think also regarding Arabs, I think that when they decide they will marry an Arab, this is simply because these are very traditional societies,

Regarding the white supremacists, unfortunately, they are everywhere....They definitely cannot fit into Islam.

Well Muslimah the Arabs who practice this and are Muslims apparently do not understand that aspect of Islam. Islam, when it came to the Arabs came as a "non-traditional" religion. Sometimes we must see the big picture. If God truly wanted us to be separate then he wouldn't give all humasn on this earth the ability to generate children with others from different cultures. I'm sorry, I feel that any endogamous tradition practices and teaches children to "marry your own kind" is  simple prejudice that goes against Islamic teachings. How can you say you're a believer in the every word God mentions in the Qur'an yet practice prejudice. Again its hypocrisy!

Like I said before the religion of Islam when it came to the pagan Arabs was not an Arab tradition. The Bedouin Arabs who migrated and settled in Arabia worshipped many gods which became apart of their tradition and since the advent of Muhammad the religion of Islam has thus became apart of their tradition now. Sometimes change is good. The same can apply for interracial marriage.

I do agree with you Asrafil!! 100%!

Tradition is not Islamic, unfortunately it is still very strong in many countries...

InshAllah, as people are getting more educated and that education is mor available to a greater number, it will change inshAllah!

We also need to free ourselves from the mentality of colonised people...Like in Nroth-African where we think it's better to  have a fair skin than a dark one. And same applies in the rest of African, or Asia.

Sister Muslima thank you for your understand......

Unfortunately, like evolution, people will have to gradually change their way of thinking and unfortunately it will not happen in my life time. I have seen too many cultural practices implimented behind the face of religion. Some practices justiy themselves using religion. These are unnecessary attributions to the Islamic culture.

This is the reason we need to educate people in those countries and in our countries too.

I think people are more educated than before and they are changing a lot more.

Salam brother!

I'm a very fair-skinned, blue eyed blond American female.  When I was young I dated both an Arab and a Black military officer.  In high school I dated young men of all races.  There is nothing wrong with different races dating, marrying, and having beautiful children.  Many of my friends have done so, and have very happy and stable marriages.  For those who disagree, I see that as their problem, no matter what country they live in or what religion they belong to.  This is just plain old ignorance to think it is wrong to have interracial marriages, imo.

Peace to all.....

I think people tend to gravitate towards thier own "culture" which is partially due to societal pressures and also a loack of critcal anaylsis.

I visited a friend from another cutlure for a few days. They were a decent Islamic household. And their actions were cultural. For instance: having 5 course meal with tea at 1am! (Now try and get up for morning prayers going to bed at that hour??). How we act, dress, food, language all makes people fee like they have a place, an identity. This is good for community but needs balance as to remember the greater meaning in a wider world. Most of us are not isolated. We live in a diverse and dynamic world. No culture has a monopoly on the good and correct way to be. Being exposed is not a bad thing to open up horizons and for self-growth. We have minds we should use them, in halal ways of course.

Dear Schwester, you said this:

"and my friend who's in US says that it's so scary to pass by black people especially when you're in a place where only black people gahter. so it makes scary to love a blackman? "

I think your friend must have gone into a "ghetto", which is very unsafe.  It is usually inhabited by the poor, drug addicted, alcoholic and violent gangs.  There are white slums too....and no one who cares for their own safety would ever want to go there either.  They are usually referred to as 'inner city' areas and they are quite dangerous to walk around in alone. 

But they are very easily avoided, and the rest of the cities are quite nice and pleasant.  This is where your friend should be visiting.

God's Peace.

hmm

"and my friend who's in US says that it's so scary to pass by black people especially when you're in a place where only black people gahter. so it makes scary to love a blackman? "

I think your friend must have gone into a "ghetto", which is very unsafe.  It is usually inhabited by the poor, drug addicted, alcoholic and violent gangs.  There are white slums too....and no one who cares for their own safety would ever want to go there either.  They are usually referred to as 'inner city' areas and they are quite dangerous to walk around in alone. 

We tend to associate poor, inner-city with danger and bad people. And this in this country is associated with black people. Through media, etc, I have seen many people either from the suburbs or immigrants think that poop=black=dangerous.

I go everywhere by bus in my city-Washington DC. Many times the buses go through less-developed areas. Many people would be afraid to be there. But alas I never have a day of trouble. Whereas my friend's father was murdered in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods. In a "good" neighborhood.

I have heard racist comments by many immigrants regarding black people. Their perception is through what they see on TV News.

I agree there are white slums as well but that is not what people think.

Having taught self-defense to many people, the reality of the situation is often different then what is the perception. Most people will be a victim of crime by someone from their own ethnic group.

Peace