Judaism and Islam
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Topic: Judaism and Islam
Posted By: howard
Subject: Judaism and Islam
Date Posted: 28 September 2005 at 4:53pm
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What for Muslims are the fundamental
THEOLOGICAL differences between Judaism and Islam? We know what the theological differences are between Christianity and Judaism and between Christianity and Islam. In fact, both Judaism and Islam reject Christianity for IDENTICAL reasons as both religions maintain that God cannot have a Son and that the notion of the Trinity contradicts the essential Oneness of God. Of course I know that Muslims consider that the Jews 'tampered with their Scriptures' and that they castigate Jews for not recognising Jesus and Mohammed as Prophets. But in the Bible itself the Jews want to kill Jesus for the blasphemy of claiming that he is the Son of God - surely what was blasphemy for the Jews would also have been blasphemy for Muslims. Again, not acknowledging Mohammed as a prophet does not consitute a THEOLOGICAL difference between Judaism and Islam. The fact that Judaism does not recognise Mohammed does not mean that the Jews are not rigourours monotheists, prohibiting graven images - synagogues like mosques are only decorated with writings from holy scriptures -there are no statues or paintings in them as you find in churches. So what's the difference? PS. I am not a Jew! |
Replies:
Posted By: Khaledee
Date Posted: 28 September 2005 at 6:52pm
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although both worship one god but The differ in prophets that make Islam and Judaism very much diverse . While Muslims easily recognised openly the three great prophets Moses , Jesus and Muhammad Pbuh , sadly , jews didnot recognised in both and rejected both as prophets , , not only rejecting them , jews were hostile to both prophets in the beginning of thier missions and continued to the current day and age . That is very fundamental and central for a start before looking deep into discussion of similarity of both monotheists Islam and Judasim . If this is central of part of the three prophets is absent , there are no hope for the jews to reconcile with the muslims . Muslims did reconcile with Judaism as they Love moses as thier own prophet . Muslims always speak about great moses against king Phoraoh but remained muslims , but it is left to the jews to make that great move! |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 29 September 2005 at 3:20am
Hello Khaladee, But what you mention does not constitute a THEOLOGICAL difference. The fact of not recognising as prophets Jesus and Mohammed does NOT constitute a theological difference. What did Mohammed say about the Oneness of God that Jews would have disagreed with? What did Mohammed say about idolatry that Jews would have disagreed with? What did Mohammed say about polytheism that Jews would have disagreed with? The only book that tells us the CONTENT of the message of Jesus to the Jews is the Bible. The Koran gives us absolutely no notion at all of the CONTENT of the message of Jesus/Isa to the Jews (unlike what the Koran writes about Moses and the Hebrews). In the Bible the Jews condemn Jesus to death on the grounds that he maintains that he is the Son of God. Muslims would have done exactly the same! So the reasons for the opposition of Judaism and Islam to Christianity are IDENTICAL!
This is from a JEWISH website. What is there in it that Muslims would disagree with on THEOLOGICAL grounds? As far as I can tell NOTHING! |
Khaledee wrote:Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 29 September 2005 at 2:30pm
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Howard I agree there is no theological difference between
Judaism and Islam. Both religions are of the Abrahamic tradition and both have the fundamental principle of the "One of God" in that there is no difference the only difference you may find are religious and historical differences. As for the comment made in regards o Jesus I don't think Muslims would kill their prophets especially if the knowledge of God had come to a man and whose signs were clear. This is the religious distinction. The Jews in Jesus' time knew of the miracles he had performed and yes they assumed he blasphemied against God by claiming that he is the Son of God, but then again we must do not accept this part of the bible anyway. |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 29 September 2005 at 3:29pm
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Israfil, hello
What I find interesting is that in the Koran we can read much about the actual relationship that Moses had with the Hebrews of his time. There are passages in the Quran where Moses/Musa upbraids the Jews for not following God's laws. On the other hand there is a COMPLETE ABSENCE in the Koran of what Isa's message was to the Jews of HIS time. The Quran speaks about Isa's childhood and his death but NOTHING about the content of his message, NOTHING about the content of the Injil that was supposedly revealed to him. Do Muslims claim that the Jews of Isa's time were tempted by idolatry and polytheism as they were in Moses time'? What did Isa tell the Jews about the Oneness of God that they didn't know already? The Koran remains strangely silent on such crucial questions and it is one of the reasons why it is not so much the Injil that should be suspected of 'distorting the truth' but the Koran itself. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 29 September 2005 at 4:43pm
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Howard I suspect you may have not read the qur'an entirely or
at least in some depth the following are brief passages of some sayings of Jesus: [43.63] And when Isa came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me: [61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic. [61.14] O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah, as~ Isa son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided those who believed against their enemy, and they became uppermost. [5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. 43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. Surah AS-SAFF chapter number 61 verse number 6 "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" " Howard the qur'an clearly denies the death of Jesus here: 4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. Allah says here that rather he ascended to Empyrean [3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. Howard you have to understand that the Qur'an does not in detail discuss the particulars of the Gospels nor the Torah but rather their central messages. Not all Jews practiced monotheism as we see that Jews we in fact captive as well as inhabitants in the Roman empire at one point as we see in the times of Jesus. There were some who left the orthodox aspect of judaism to adopt pagan monotheism in the Roman empire, adopting certain philosophical principles that philosophers such as Plato held. Or as the heterodoxical tales of Lilth added to Jewish legend. All these things summed up the reason why God sends his prophets at specific times. As the Qur'an notes about the injeel (Gospel) o my assumption the Injeel is a supplimental text which confirms the Torah also adding additions to the Law it's specific are unknown to me. "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus, the Son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We gave him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah." 5/46. Another saying of Jesus: "I am indeed a servant of Allah, He gave me the Book and made me a prophet." 19/32 Here are some things you may find that are mentioned in the Injeel and Torah but only briefly: "The similitude of the companions of the Prophet Muhammed� in the Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong, it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, feeling the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result it fills the unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those amongst them who believe and do righteous deeds, forgiveness and a great reward." 48/29 "My mercy is extended to all things. That mercy I shall ordain for those who do right and pay zakat and those who believe in our signs. Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet, who they find mentioned in their own scriptures, the Torah and Injeel." "We sent him the Injeel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him. A guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah." 5/46. Finally we come to the end of what you mentioned regarding he sayings of Jesus and whether there was something in addition to what Jews already knew. The main theme of Jesus like tht of Muhammad wa the reaffirmation of the Oneness of God. Because of cultural influence in those societies it is not uncommon to assume nor to find in the history of the Jews and Christians that the loss of monotheism was evident. I hope this helps. |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 04 October 2005 at 12:17pm
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Israfil,
The quotes you have given above say nothing about the content of the Injil. Are these supposed quotes part of the Injil? Or are they 'ahadeeth'? Which Jews in Israel were practising polytheism? Jews were divided into sects at the time of Jesus (Essenes, Pharisees, Saducees) but there is no historical record of Jews ever having practiced anything but the strictest monotheism in Israel itself. Their own Scriptures warned them insistently and vehemently of the error of slipping into polytheism. What were the clear signs that Isa presented to the Jews? Again, we have no precise details from the Quran. What were the miracles Isa performed as an adult? The same miracles as are related in the NT or other miracles? Did Isa write the Injil? Did his disciples write it? What became of it? Why did Allah reveal a Kitab to Isa if it were not going to survive for even a century? Why did Allah let so many people be DELUDED into thinking that Isa had been crucified? Finally as I've asked on another thread, why did Allah in the Quran give the name Injil (derived from the Greek) to the Kitab that was revealed to Isa? According to Muslims was Isa's mother tongue Greek? |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 October 2005 at 2:11pm
| Though I leave the rest of your post for brother Israfil to respond as it is nothing but rudimentary in nature, however, concerning your assertion about word "Injeel" being derived from Greek, kindly go back to the same thread and you shall find the appropriate response to it. |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 04 October 2005 at 3:51pm
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Dear AhmadJoyia,
I responded to your remarks on the Injeel before you wrote this last post. Your assertion that the word Injeel is derived from Arabic just does not stand up to examination. Read my reply please. |
Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 04 October 2005 at 9:19pm
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I will reply to your question if brother Israfil fails to reply within two days from now. Thanx, Dayem bin Anwar. ------------- "the mooslims! they're heeere!" LOONWATCH.COM |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 2:05pm
| Due to unfortunate circumstances my comp did not let me post this long post I've written..... I don't however think Howard is sincere anyway so I choose not to re-write it again......I've concluded this because of how Howard's conduct wa sin the other foum. |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 3:09pm
| What other forum? |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 October 2005 at 11:44pm
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Howard I've constantly had battles with people like you....You're constanting questing just to refute Islam is known therefore there is nothing for me to say. If you sincerely disagree with Islam fine but constantly trying to refute Islamic principle is pointless. If you disagree how about "To you your way and to me mine."
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Posted By: Dayem
Date Posted: 06 October 2005 at 2:26am
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 06 October 2005 at 2:47am
Israfil, hello Well obviously if one disagrees with the tenets of a religion or a belief system, then one will try to refute it. Don't Muslims try to refute Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, Christianity etc? A problem often occurs when people with different if not opposing beliefs resort to personal abuse in order to 'argue' their position. I do not use such methods. Now, Muslims here by quoting certain Koranic verses have tried to show that Mohammed was illiterate . I examined the verses in question in a calm and rational manner and came to the conclusion that the ayat in question do not prove that Mohammed was illiterate - btw certain Muslims such as the Kharadjites also hold to the opinion that Mohammed was not illiterate. If you want to maintain that Islam is beyond rational analysis and that your religion is just a matter of faith, then fine. And in that case, yes, any rational discussion becomes impossible |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 06 October 2005 at 6:02pm
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first and foremost Howard how you approach the subject of
Islam and its various components is indeed in question. first off you ask for proof. I gave you proof then you asked for other things other than what you've asked. I gave you those yet you still disregard my post. the transition from a rational discussion to a perennial discussion of pointless arguments is what I do not look for. When one disagrees with the religion one makes it known that he/she disagrees but doesn't make points to try to refute the religion. How can I or anyone here take you seriously if you try to refte Islamic theology? Obviously your arguement sare subject thus the possibility of an irrational behavior and irrational discussion. If your disagreement was out of sincerity then its understandable then there are no quarrels because you just disagree with Islam. But you coming here trying to disprove the Qur'an is not sincere nor is it Christ-liek (if you are a Christian) nor is it the nature of a Judaic follow (if you are a Jewish follower). If you are atheist then I'd say the nature of you words are appropriate. That is whay I refuse to discuss the issue any further with you. You talk about rational discussion, but I have yet to find one out of you so I would suggest to you stop calling what you are discussing now rational. BTW the lacking part of your so-called rational discussion is evident in your words "Muslims always ty to refute Hinduism, Buddism Christianity etc." Obviosly you are God so you know all 1.2 Billion Muslims in the world. I haven't on here tried to refute non of thoe religions nor should you make a broad sweeping assertion. Again I have yet to find any rationality in your person therefore this conversation is over...... |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 07 October 2005 at 12:08am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem I havnt read through this in its entirety but from what i understood of Howards earlier posts i should point this out. The Concept of a trinity is forign to the Bible you will not find it mentioned specificly anywhere, but as the chritian scholars explain it comes from the culmination of the understanding of a number of passages. It did not come about untill much later than the time of jesus and the first christians never heard of such a thing, so questioning/comparing the theology of Islam to jewish and thus christianity is pointless, the common teaching is tawhid oneness of god were it varies is the later christian teaching of the trinity. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 October 2005 at 4:47pm
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As'Salaaum Alaikum brother Rami, No offense brother but this is regarding the theology of Judaism and Islam what does the trinity have to do with the discussion of Judaism and Islam? |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 11 October 2005 at 4:39pm
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Israfil, hello
As you have stated that I ignored your proofs, we can go through them one by one
So what ARE these clear arguments? Why does the Quran remain so silent about this?
So had the Taurat been 'adulterated' or not when Isa spoke to the Jews? Did he tell them that the Taurat had been tampered with? If the Taurat hadn't been tampered with when Isa was a Prophet to the Jews then when did the Jews tamper with it? Who is Ahmad? Muhammed? Again WHAT are the clear arguments that Isa used? The Quran says NOTHING about the CONTENT of these 'clear messages'. And why did the Jews accuse Isa of using magic? We know that Musa was accused of using magic when he transformed a snake into a stick. But that episode is in the Torah...
Is that for Muslims what Isa's message can be reduced to? "Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah?" Is that all?
This verse simply proves that Mohammed had heard a garbled and erroneous version of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is composed of God, the Holy Ghost and Jesus. Mary is NOT part of the Trinity as the Koran would lead one to believe.
SO WHAT ARE THE CLEAR SIGNS ?
So why did Allah let so many people be deluded? Did Allah know that his sending a Kitab to Isa would end up as a total failure? Did he know that His efforts would not only result in a religion that practiced 'shirk' but that woudl be practised by more people than Islam? If I had been Allah I would have let the Jews alone - at least for a Muslim they were more rigourous monotheists than those who thought they were following Jesus. Shouldn't Allah have just simply 'skipped' Isa and gone straight to Mohammed? If Allah did not know that his efforts would result in a shirk-practicing religion then he isn't omniscient. If he did know that, then why did he send Isa to the Jews in the first place? |
Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 12 October 2005 at 8:42pm
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bismillahi rahmani raheem Quran, 5:116-118 And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner�self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All�Knower of all that is hidden and unseen. Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world). If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All �Mighty, the All �Wise." |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:08pm
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O my dear brother Howard, though your questions are addressed to bro Israfil, however, I may also like to respond to them. In this, I would like to begin with a little bit of basics of Islam that appears unfamiliar to you as to most of my Christian brothers. In Islam, we never say that Allah needs us, but the fact is that we need Him, we need his mercy and we need his never-ending forgiveness of our own sins. Secondly, the message of all Prophets (from Adam to Moses to Jesus to Mohammad with all others in between) was the same i.e. to guide the mankind to Allah and Allah alone. With this premise, let us see how I can answer your questions.
Israfil, hello Quote: [43.63] And when Isa came with clear I don�t think Quran is silent about this, as I have already mentioned that the basic objective of all messenger was essentially the same. Here it is in Quran � Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=2&translator=2 - #2 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=2&translator=2#136 - #136 ) � In the same token, Quran says "(4) It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus). (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=2 - #3 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=2#3 - #3 )� In essence, the clear arguments were about their psudo-monotheism and the real monotheism. Read on where I have provided the reference verse from Quran.
Quote: [61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O O my dear brother, from where this issue of �tampering of Taurat� came in from these verses that you picked to ask? On the contrary, the verses show that Jesus came and said ��surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat����. Hence, your questions are totally misplaced to understand the verses.
Yap, this is the right question within the context of the verses that have been quoted. Yes, Ahmad is also another name of Prophet Mohammad given to him by his mother.
To answer your question kindly read �57:27. Then, We sent after them Our Messengers, and We sent ��s� (Jesus) - son of Maryam (Mary), and gave him the Injeel (Gospel). And We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy. But the monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them, but (they sought it) only to please All�h therewith, but they did not observe it with the right observance. So We gave those among them who believed their (due) reward; but many of them are F�siq�n (rebellious, disobedient to All�h).�. Hence, they were accused of psuedu monasticism that they had invented out of the scriptures given to them plus their rebellious disobeidience. One would recall that even in the time of Moses, in his absence, this nation had started worshipping the golden calf for which they were severely rebuked by Moses on his arrival back.
Oh, I thought you are about to figure it out yourself. Nevertheless, I think all the miracles performed by Jesus were to convince the people of his Prophet hood. But, as the habit of this nation was, they failed to recognize him and shrugged off all such miracles on the false assertions of �magic� etc.
Quote: [61.14] O you who believe! be helpers (in the Yes, this is what I call the gist of the whole message, which is not only of Jesus but also of all the Prophets who came before him or after him. It can�t be described more precisely and elegantly as it is presented here.
Quote: [5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Probably you forgot to note that Quran�s foremost addressees are the people living in the surroundings of the messenger so that the message could be understood readily. It is fact that the Christian community living in that area venerated �Mary� as �Mother of God�, though not necessarily as a part of doctrine of �Trinity�. Kindly refer to �eastern orthodox church� and their beliefs about �Mary�.
Quote: 43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, Clear signs are the Miracles that he performed as a proof of his Prophet hood, same as the Prophets before him performed. Quote: 4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed So why did Allah let so many people be deluded? Well my brother, not Allah but the arrogance of people through the work of Satan, had deluded them. If one may realize, we on this earth are under test. It is we who has the need for good deeds to pass this exam. Allah only provides guidance, but to take heed of, it is the sole prerogative of humans. Simply because, each individual human being shall be responsible for his own deeds and actions at the Day of Judgment when the result of this test shall be announced. No one carries the burden of any other human being, no concept of �original sin� etc.
I think I have already clarified your misconception. It is not Allah who need us but we who need Him. To your question specifically, Allah says in Quran �Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=2&translator=2 - #2 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=2&translator=2#253 - #253 )�
If I had been Allah I would have let the Your false assumption of �rigorous monotheists� have been answered above where Allah opens up their pseudo- monotheism. On the more, how do you account for the fact that treatment which Jesus received from Jews was not unique as these Jews had the history of Killing their Prophets before Jesus. The example of John the Baptist may be recalled and similarly many more Prophets before him who came to guide the lost sheep of Israel and got killed by none others but by this nation. Your underlying assumption about Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy of �Son of God� is false and self-contradictory simply because how else the notion of �One God� could ever be retained within the Christianity. You yourself have acknowledged elsewhere on this forum that the notion of �Trinity� was invented some 300 years after Jesus.
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 5:34pm
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I am not sure why that would be interesting, unless of course one would have an idea that the Quran is a book about the message of Jesus in a "specific" sense, and that the specifics you cannot find in his message was relevant and necessary for someone to be Muslim or to fully understand Islamic doctrine, such that a "mistake" would be in order.
How did you come to your assumption?
He could have made claims similar and parrallel to the other Prophets during the entire history of Judeah and/or the Northern Kingdom, who would also have been as enlightened as those of the very late second temple period. The real question is, how does this imply that the Quran must give certain details about the entire message of Jesus, aftrer all, it does not give us the ingredients to make "mana" either, or if Moses preferred tahinni or humus on his falafel.
Argument from silence can be valid and it can also be a fallacy. Given that "ignorance", or some other "fallacious" defect is not the only possible reason, and that an assumption of a dubious reason has not even been clearly presented by you, except for your claim that it some how must be, seems to place the entire topic in a "null" light. In other words, I see no reason to indulge in the question. ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |