I am afraid you are mixed up in your understanding of FGM as compared to female circumcision.  The later is a small cut in the hood of the clitoris, the former is much more and completely forbidden in Islam.  Anything more than a small cut is not circumcision at all, but mutilation.  I do hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

Just to be clear, female circumcision is not obligatory in Islam.

Begbie wrote: Hmmm, there seems to be a difference of opinion here; Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world. But whoever chooses not to do it is not considered to have committed a sin for it is mainly meant to dignify women as held by scholars. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886 - Islamic rule on female circuncision (FGM) How would this "dignify women" I wonder ?

So, where is the difference of opinon since I clearly highlighted it to be a cultural practice than having anything to do with divine origin? same as  the shiekh himself has declared it when he says "..But whoever chooses not to do it is not considered to have committed a sin ........". On the more, the evidence presented in support of FGM, is not authentic. Hence, there is no doubt left. Whatever, the Shiekh is saying is his personal feelings, depending upon his own cultural inclinations.

Begbie wrote:   i'm not disputing divine or cultural. I'm questioning the ethic.

Well then, this comes down to personal opinion since different people have different views of "ethics". But the question of whether or not Islamic law commands it has already been answered.

Begbie wrote: I don't believe I am mixed up or misunderstanding anything.

I don't mean to lecture you on semantics nor anatomy... but as mentioned already, circumcision is not the same as mutilation. The former involves removing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoral_hood - prepuce of the clitoris (the female equivalent of the male foreskin). The latter involves cutting the clitoris.
Islam commands neither. But from what has been presented in this thread, it looks like Islam promotes circumcision (and it stresses that even this must not be severe as to affect the sexual pleasure.)

I personally believe this issue to be of a cultural origin that seems to have crossed the line of various religious groups including Muslims, Christians and Jews.

I personally believe it to be an unnecessary practice.

Begbie, you are absolutely right! So much for scholarship these days! To justify it in any form is abominable and it is not Islamic! It is sickening!

Assalamu alaikum,

Begpie, too bad you didn't start off your first post with your position that "I believe it is an unnecessary practice".  On that point I am sure most would agree!  Personally, I would go so far as to say neither female or male circumcision is a necessary practice - after all, if we are not even allowed to pluck our eyebrows because it "changes Allah's creation", why would we cut off a part of our body?

Peace, ummziba.

Begbie wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: So, where is the difference of opinon since I clearly highlighted it to be a cultural practice than having anything to do with divine origin? qaradawi says it's sharia, i'm not disputing divine or cultural. I'm questioning the ethic.

Well you are not very correct in quoting Sheikh Qaradawi. Here it is as what the website says, if at all anything about shariah but not by the Sheikh Qaradawi. "As for the Shari`ah stance on female circumcision, it�s a controversial issue among the Muslim scholars and even doctors." (Bold and underlined are from my self to highlight the actual stance).

Hence, your assertion is not supported but contradicted. Secondly, the issue of ethic in FGM is intrinsically associated with culture, as is now clear, therefore, its meaningless to find its roots from religion, though I have already provided the answer to that.

AhmadJoyia wrote: same as  the shiekh himself has declared it when he says "..But whoever chooses not to do it is not considered to have committed a sin ........". and then says I personally support this

I guess personal opinions are different than official ones. That is how I understand it. Personal opinions are, sometimes, held due to cultural influences, as I have alluded to, than on sound evidence.

What has it got to do with sin anyway ?

I don't know. Probably you need to consult the one who said this.

AhmadJoyia wrote: On the more, the evidence presented in support of FGM, is not authentic. Hence, there is no doubt left. Whatever, the Shiekh is saying is his personal feelings, depending upon his own cultural inclinations. Then the sheik is a dangerous quack ?

I don't say such a thing simply as I have already explained as how a "personal opinion" could be different than the "official" one.

Allah knows the best.  

It disturbs me tht the quackery of qaradawi is held in such high regard in certain muslim (and leftists) quarters.

This is unfortunate. The first ayat that came down to the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was "Iqra" meaning "read". We are to read and seek knowledge and that would mean to start with the Qur'an and then the "hadith" and so on. When we are well equipped with the treasure that has been revealed to us in the Quran and then listen to scholars we can distinguish between the right & the wrong or the truth & the false. I have little knowledge of this person that you refer to except that I heard a person preaching youngstrs that it is alright to eat at "Mcdonalds" eventhough it is not halal. This she quoted was from qaradwi. I am not in agreement with this.

Maryga wrote:  I have little knowledge of this person that you refer to except that I heard a person preaching youngstrs that it is alright to eat at "Mcdonalds" eventhough it is not halal. This she quoted was from qaradwi. I am not in agreement with this.

If indeed Yusuf Qardawi gave that fatwa it was on the basis that Muslims are permitted to eat the food of the people of the book (Jews and Christians).  However, I've found that many foreign Muslims(by foreign I mean not form the west) assume that all Americans (or westerners I suppose) are Christian; and that simply isn't the case.   Mc Donald's has never claimed to be a "Christian restaurant" so we can't assume the food there is halal for us.

Salaam

Maryga, I agree with you that muslims should support the efforts of other muslims in making halal food available.  BUT, that still doesn't change the legality of eating the food of the people of the book.  Allah made their food halal for us, without any clause.  And technically, the people of the book don't eat pork.  Unfortunately, Christians in the states don't always follow the rules.    Whether or not we choose to eat the food of ahl-kitab is up to us; but as I stated before, that doesn't change the hukm clearly stated in the Quran.

You're lucky to be in Australia.  While I was in China I noticed a lot of the products in the supermarket with the "halal" symbol were from Australia.  We don't have such conveniences in supermarkets in the States.  I personally have always chosen to just make trips to the halal meat market and load my freezer up.

Salaam

Begbie wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: Well you are not very correct in quoting Sheikh Qaradawi. I quote him because he is a well known, prominant "scholar".

Well my dear brother Begbie, I didn't say "why" you quoted Sheikh Qardawi but incorrectly quoted him. Kindly go back and read my objection again and verify. 

Surely you mean qaradawi is contradicted ?

 Again, you misunderstood the whole reply of mine and same you are doing to the personal opinon of Sheikh Qardawi. 

I know that but it concerns me that the likes of qaradawi allows this "culture" to perpetuate by condoning it in a pseudo islamic grounding.

I don't blame the Sheikh, but the website which is promolgating the personal opinons without qualification despite the fact that they know that the issue is "controversial" and yet forwarding a biased "personal" opinon in favour of one side without the other.

He seems to draw his opinion from islamic teachings, does he not ?

Why wouldn't you call him a dangerous quack if he is so far off the mark ?

The website is to be blamed for this issue.

His personnal opinions also stretch to killing homosexuals and apostates. Does anybody in the muslim world take this man seriously ?

Begbie wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: Well my dear brother Begbie, I didn't say "why" you quoted Sheikh Qardawi but incorrectly quoted him. Kindly go back and read my objection again and verify.  No, qaradawi is quoted correctly.

This is what I call wastage of time simply because people forget what they wrote and don't want to reconcile if they err. Kindly show us where did Sheikh Qardawi says "It is Shariah" as what you told us concerning him?

AhmadJoyia wrote: As I said before, its more of a cultural influence than anything else, simply because there is not authentic source for his "official" opinon, though the website is blamed for advertising such an image. So lets say a muslim convert living in Cornwall, England reads qaradawis "opinion" and decides to take action based on that opinion, how does culture fit it now ?

This is again an hypothetical reasoning without understanding as what the impression is about this issue. Even so with the "personal" opinon of Shiekh, it is clearly an optional thing for those who don't want to go for it.

This is again an hypothetical reasoning without understanding as what the impression is about this issue. Even so with the "personal" opinon of Shiekh, it is clearly an optional thing for those who don't want to go for it.

Assalamalaikum AhmadJoyia, Ramadan Mubarak! May Allah guide eveyone of us to the right path. I have read many of your posts and have respect for the patience with which you handle every query/debate. I have no intention of causing any rift between anyone, but I could'nt help responding to what you have written only because in my view this practise is abhorrent and who are we to correct God's creation. Allah has created us in the most perfect mould and when nowhere in the Quran or hadith this practise is mentioned why do people torture others by this inhuman practise. People of respectable standing or so called scholars should be very careful in mentioning their personal opinions in public. Ignorant people value the opinions of the "shiekhs" or "scholars" and will happily put it into practise at the expense of the innocent and the weak/helpless. There would be no confusion in the minds of the people if scholars withheld their personal opinions and spoke only of what is clear and unambiguous in Islam.

Maryga wrote: This is again an hypothetical reasoning without understanding as what the impression is about this issue. Even so with the "personal" opinon of Shiekh, it is clearly an optional thing for those who don't want to go for it. Assalamalaikum AhmadJoyia, Ramadan Mubarak! May Allah guide eveyone of us to the right path. I have read many of your posts and have respect for the patience with which you handle every query/debate. I have no intention of causing any rift between anyone, but I could'nt help responding to what you have written only because in my view this practise is abhorrent and who are we to correct God's creation. Allah has created us in the most perfect mould and when nowhere in the Quran or hadith this practise is mentioned why do people torture others by this inhuman practise. People of respectable standing or so called scholars should be very careful in mentioning their personal opinions in public. Ignorant people value the opinions of the "shiekhs" or "scholars" and will happily put it into practise at the expense of the innocent and the weak/helpless. There would be no confusion in the minds of the people if scholars withheld their personal opinions and spoke only of what is clear and unambiguous in Islam.

Brother, I think, I don't have anything to disagree with you as I already pointed out this. Thanks anyway for the clarification.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Even so with the "personal" opinon of Shiekh, it is clearly an optional thing for those who don't want to go for it. It doesn't seem optional to the young girls who suffer with this practice. So I don't agree it is optional.

O my dear brother, why is there so much difficulty to understand a basic issue. Here is another statement from the link you have provided by anothor Islamic scholar on the same issue "Because there is no absolute proof from the sources of Islam prescribing female circumcision, the vast majority of scholars do not include it in the OBLIGATORY rituals of Islam." If you don't find it, here is the link

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545826 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamO nline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=111950354582 6

Look under " http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=79655 - Female Circumcision: Is It Really Obligatory? " to reach the above stated link from your provided webpage. Hope this shall pin the issue down, once for all. Inshallah.

Begbie wrote: Not on my part. You keep saying it is "optional". It is not optional for the 3 year old girl being pinned down though is it ?

Yes "optional" according to people's customs and not according to Islam. Can anyone blame Islam for the cultural habits of different people of this world? I don't think so. 

AhmadJoyia wrote: Here is another statement from the link you have provided by anothor Islamic scholar on the same issue "Because there is no absolute proof from the sources of Islam prescribing female circumcision, the vast majority of scholars do not include it in the OBLIGATORY rituals of Islam." But it still ALLOWS it and in some cases, PROMOTES it as a ritual of islam. Francis Begbie

I think, this new webpage quite categorically makes this thing clear that this practice is not from Islam. I don't know from where the impression of "still ALLOWS it" comes in? Not from this web link at least. 

 But definitely "and in some cases, PROMOTES it as a ritual of islam" is total exaggeration. Hence your assertions are nothing but false.

It is unfortunate the way this debate is heading. Instead of openly condemning this practise I find now that there is a distinction made in the way this heinous practise is performed. When Allah and His Prophet have not sanctioned this practise the debate should end with open condemnation. Though it is cultural it is the Muslims in certain countries that are practising it and every scholar should condemn it outright. I see a subtle defence of this practise and it is not surprising that it is coming from some of the male quarters. The real sufferers from this are the innocent and helpless females especially children whose rights have been snatched from them even before they can speak and understand.

I do not see any ignorance on the part of the questioner.

salamou alaikoum

bismi Allah a Rahman a rahim

i though i wil visit quikly to see who is say what, but when i saw this thread, i could not help myself but writing something

mister rami, our brother is stating that femalle circomp is not forbiden

i have never heard such a thing, not in the coran nor in the hadith

since when was a madhab ,the source of revelation, while the chrition are preasing jesus to the point of equating him with God

we muslim are venerating scholors to the point of equating them with messangers

prophet mohamed peace be upon him has said and Allah knows best

i am parahrazing " the halal (permitted) is in the Holy Coran, and the Haram (forbiden, not allowed) is in the Holy Coran"

this Hadith sums it up, nobody and i mean nobody even prophet Mohamed peace be upon hin can allow or forbid something without Allah permissiong, and in the Holly Coran everything is stated

about femalle mutulation, go to the Holly Coran and read it from the begining to the end and you will not find anything refering to a such unjustified action (also barbarique to my point of view)

now, is male circom stated in the holly Coran (i am not sure) but i know that it is a sunna of our prophet Mohamed peace be upon him

and the sunna like the islam revelation is like a beam of light that started from the day of the revelation and it will end the day of judgement (proof at hand: Allah will spread and conserve that beam of light until the day of judgement, it is in the holly coran), i guess will  blow away the idea of not considering hadith and sunna as source of revelation, hadith is merly an expleanation of what is in holy coran, not an other module or extantion to the revelation of Allah swt

salam

rami said

"Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem

Just pre-emting the next person to repeat what the last few posts have said.

I want someone to Define female circumcision and the procedure and clearly state what is the harm and why it is mutilation! "

i will take a step back and ask you because i am ignorant about this matter or maybe we are referring to different subject so let us first reach a common ground,

 1) tell me  please  what do you mean by female circumcision and what is the purpose behind it ? and did Prophet Mohamed (pbh) allowed

2) i have nothing about the scholars of Islam, but when using them as reference or explanation , tell us their studies and finding and what source you have gotten that information,

to just say madhab x say that and madhab z say this is really not helping us, and except for the holly Coran everything is subject to questioning, such as was this really said or not, did he or she really said it, in what context was it said, did he or she said something else negating the first thing said etc..

stating my point of view does not make me a scholar, nor does it portray me as making fatwa, but let me see brother rami how you will define female circumcision and what are your references that is the essence.

salam

Now that bro Rami has brought in totally new perspective through Shafi Madhab, I shall refrain commenting about the topic till he provides his evidence from this Madhab as on what evidence this view is based, though the website clearly rejects all such evidences of ahadith by calling them un-reliable.

As far as bro begbie's "My assertion is based on the evidence provided by a leading scholar of islam who is promoting the practice so I neither exaggerate or provide false information." is concerned, I think he already admitted his mistake of misquoting the scholar. I have nothing else to say untill any new evidence is provided "for or against" the issue.

However, one thing may be realized that in a cultural traditions (not Islamic) of FGC (not FGM), it is the women who insists on continuing their cultural traditons more than their men. Hence, within the cultral tradition, this act is not considered un-human or abhorrent of any kind. Their mothers are infact the real torch bearer of this tradition to continue this activity to this time more than their fathers. However, now this cultrual tradition has taken the umbrella of religion, where religion is not the source but an excuse of continuity. 

rami wrote: Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem Just pre-emting the next person to repeat what the last few posts have said. I want someone to Define female cicumsision and the procedure and clearly state what is the harm and why it is mutilation!

Brother, it seems like no one can.  Could you define it for us????  jazak allahu khairan

Salaam

I think its not wise for me to respond to either defend or accuse a Muslim scholar in discussions. Yes, we can critize his decisions through logical arguments but its totally a different thing if we starting calling names to him. On the more, the topic of this thread happens to be "FGM" and not cursing a scholar. Hope this distinction must be kept while postings.

Specifically responding to bro begbie, I couldn't understand your response when you say: "Yes it is". Kindly elaborate.

AhmadJoyia wrote: However, one thing may be realized that in a cultural traditions (not Islamic) of FGC (not FGM), it is the women who insists on continuing their cultural traditons more than their men. Hence, within the cultral tradition, this act is not considered un-human or abhorrent of any kind. Yes it is. All you are doing is providing the apologetics to allow it to continue under the guise of religion.

Secondly, I think you got me wrong from the day one on this thread, this is why you say

AhmadJoyia wrote: However, now this cultrual tradition has taken the umbrella of religion, where religion is not the source but an excuse of continuity.  And now you contradict yourself. You are now saying the practice DOES have religious (read islamic) connotations.

I hope people on this forum would use their own wisdom to understand as what my position was and is, on this topic. Indeed Allah knows the best.