Interfaith Dialogue - G-d Does NOT Change!

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G-d Does NOT Change!

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24841
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Topic: G-d Does NOT Change!

Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Subject: G-d Does NOT Change!
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 9:45am

Dear Trinitarians,

Please consider the following verse:

Malachi 3:6
"I the Lord do not change...."

Some contend that the Trinity is not G-d changing but revealing himself more. Yet why do you believe in the Trinity when G-d already revealed:
"God IS not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23:19

Jesus was considered both man and son of man in the New Testament so this means Jesus(PBUH) is not God and the Trinity is false.

Replies:

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 11:38am

I can only go by the fact that Jesus came, and what He said and revealed about Himself, and those things which he first spoke about and then came to pass, and those who were with Him saw the Truth, the good news, and went out into the world to share this good news, the Truth from God, even at the price of death.

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 1:44am

Caringheart wrote:

I can only go by the fact that Jesus came, and what He said and revealed about Himself, and those things which he first spoke about and then came to pass, and those who were with Him saw the Truth, the good news, and went out into the world to share this good news, the Truth from God, even at the price of death.

http://knowingallah.com/index.php/en/articles/category/233
What Jesus(PBUH) taught about himself however was not that he is divine but none of us can convince each other, we can only take the information and try to convince ourselves.

I go by the fact that Muhammad(SAW) came, and what he said and revealed. This does not mean that the Bible is wrong or corrupt but men do make mistakes and after a long period of time when the original authors (Moses and Jesus) are no longer present G-d himself must correct it with the Quran.

Try to imagine it from the other side of the argument, just consider Muhammad(SAW) as a Prophet. I would sometimes imagine without taking Quran and Muhammad into consideration(May Allah forgive me) that Jesus did die on the cross for our sins and that would not convince me. But I would never believe in the Trinity as there is not enough evidence to imagine that. Although Satan would try to force the idea into my head when I wake up before Fajr, but he would also try to force idolatry such as the Moabite "god" Chemosh, Praise Allah that I would fight off these thoughts.

May Allah Guide us all and grant us Jannah through his mercy only.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 9:51pm

786SalamKhan wrote:

http://knowingallah.com/index.php/en/articles/category/233

"but none of us can convince each other, we can only take the information and try to convince ourselves."

I agree.

"I go by the fact that Muhammad(SAW) came, and what he said and revealed. This does not mean that the Bible is wrong or corrupt but men do make mistakes and after a long period of time when the original authors (Moses and Jesus) are no longer present G-d himself must correct it with the Quran."

I understand the logic applied in that statement, but I do believe it is a faulty statement. Scrutiny shows that the scriptures have been meticulously preserved.

The only evidence needed for the trinity is in what Jesus Himself said. Have you read the words of Jesus?

I have been doing some reading at the link you shared. There is an awful lot of misinformation there.
There is no doubt of the similarities between all religions. They all begin in Mesopotamian myth and there is unquestionably a thread of truth that connects them all. Man has been seeking to understand their Creator, who has given them signs, ever since time began.

The only conclusive thing that I can always say is, who can argue with the teaching of Jesus? Is there a single thing He taught, and brought to the world, that is not good?

There have been many things said about Jesus and I have delved deeply into every thing that is said, to weigh carefully whether the views I have held are clear and true.
It is this that allows me to realize that any one of us could find, in the end, that we have been wrong.
If anything saves me it may be my humility to accept this truth.
What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible.
With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything.

Salaam,
Caringheart

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Rational
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 3:17pm

Caringheart wrote:

With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything.Salaam,Caringheart

It upsets me to see you talking like this about our beloved prophet Mohammad (Salla Allah Allaihi wa Sallam). If the prophet heard you speak about him like this, I'd imagine he would turn his cheek and pray that Allah forgives you and guides you away from the darkness you live in.

"On the Day their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions." (24:24)

May Allah forgive you Caringheart.

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الله

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 3:49pm

Rational wrote:

It upsets me to see you talking like this about our beloved prophet Mohammad (Salla Allah Allaihi wa Sallam). If the prophet heard you speak about him like this, I'd imagine he would turn his cheek and pray that Allah forgives you and guides you away from the darkness you live in.

"On the Day their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions." (24:24)

May Allah forgive you Caringheart.

Greetings Rational,

I'm sorry, and I know it does, and I am glad that you expressed it so civilly, but it should not be a source of injury to you. We are all truth-seekers are we not? What can Muhammad bring to me that I do not already have? He brought his own people to belief in one god, which is good, but I already had that.
If God thinks I need His forgiveness, then I too, pray that I will receive it, but I am pretty certain that I live in the Light.

Salaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 8:06am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2BNwZk6Wi4&list=WLFHdUBKWxT2GrSQs5SIbA2wS6QDa3W4VJ

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:12am

DYING FOR SOMETHING DOES NOT MAKE IT REAL/TRUE

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 11:17am

786SalamKhan wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2BNwZk6Wi4&list=WLFHdUBKWxT2GrSQs5SIbA2wS6QDa3W4VJ

Greetings 786SalamKhan,

Yes, I have watched that debate before, and I found Evans to be more compelling than Ehrman. I elaborated my reasons why at that time. I don't know if it was posted on the forum, or if I kept my notes. I do know what conclusion I reached.

Regardless, I still ask... Have you read the words of Jesus as they are recorded?
Is there anything in Jesus words as recorded that is not good?

I repeat myself;
"There have been many things said about Jesus and I have delved deeply into every thing that is said(and continue to do so), to weigh carefully whether the views I have held are clear and true.
It is this that allows me to realize that any one of us could find, in the end, that we have been wrong.
If anything saves me it may be my humility to accept this truth.
What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible.
With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything."

I still conclude that;
"The only conclusive thing that I can always say is, who can argue with the teaching of Jesus? Is there a single thing He taught, and brought to the world, that is not good?"

I find nothing of relevance that is disputable in the teaching, or life of Jesus, as it is recorded in the new testament. If we follow the teaching, and way, of Jesus we are led to God.
If Muhammad was a prophet of God, then he too follows the teaching of Jesus, and thus is able to lead his people to God. But you must know Jesus.

Salaam,
Caringheart

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 February 2013 at 11:07am

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

DYING FOR SOMETHING DOES NOT MAKE IT REAL/TRUE

Greetings Mahdi,

Would you die for something without having an awfully powerful belief in its truth?

but yes, I guess your statement would be correct, there are people dying today because they believe they will receive 72 hourris' in their afterlife.

What were the Apostle's dying for?

Salaam,
Caringheart

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 11:56am

Carinheart,
The funny thing is that he did not die, at least not by choice (remember his cries to God quoted in the Bible "...why have you forsaken me. He was killed, if we assume that for a second. There is a difference when someone kills someone vs someone giving his life willfully and that is called a suicide. I have not come across any verse in the OT yet that says that the Messiah will be killed!
There is a difference when someone asks for money from you nicely, vs rob you at gunpoint! According to your version he was killed at gunpoint or it's equivalent of that time. And do not forget he questioned his persecution. John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Thus we consult the Qruan, the only reliable, unchanged and true account of this matter:
"..but they killed him not, nor crucified him,.." 4:157
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 1:11pm

Caringheart wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

DYING FOR SOMETHING DOES NOT MAKE IT REAL/TRUE

caringheart, use your head/brain.

but yes, I guess your statement would be correct, there are people dying today because they believe they will receive 72 hourris' in their afterlife.What were the Apostle's dying for?Salaam,Caringheart
you already believe people can die for something false, so do not ever use that nonsensical argument again.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 3:53pm

Greetings Hasan,

⁴²Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luke)

³⁸For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.³⁹And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.⁴⁰And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
⁴¹The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.⁴²And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (John)

Yes, He questioned the people, but never His Father who sent Him. He gave His life, at the hands of the Jews and the Romans, in obedience to the will of the Father who sent Him.

⁴³I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

³⁰I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

³²There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.³³Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

³⁶But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

³⁷And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis