Logic: Allah�s Omniscience & Omnipotence
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Topic: Logic: Allah�s Omniscience & Omnipotence
Posted By: Jazz
Subject: Logic: Allah�s Omniscience & Omnipotence
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 10:08am
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(I don't have access to a more appropriate section of the forum, so I am posting this here, it seems I am not being a good dhimmi and so I have been isolated from joining-in much of the forum's discussions, there is even a hidden/secret 3 page discussion-thread about "jazz" on the forum, created by Mockba and apparently only viewable by a select few........ moderators and co.) Not to worry................... Here is an article that might be of interest. It discusses the alleged omniscience and omnipotence of Allah. Does anyone have any thoughts and comments on this article? http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/limitedallah.html - http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/limitedallah.html The Logic of Allah's Existence I've debated many Muslims on the net (in chats, via email, on usenet), and I've also debated with a few Muslims in person (at my local university, at the work place). One thing that the real time Muslims ask that the cyber-Muslims rarely do is why I'm an Atheist, which is often followed by "why not Islam?" They can understand how an educated Westerner would reject Christianity, but why reject Islam? Especially when you're already familiar with its tenets. Here I will give a quick run through the reasons I don't believe in the existence of Allah. Surely, if Allah does not exist, then all other claims of Islam fall with Him. I will explore some of His alleged attributes, the attempted arguments for His alleged existence, and what life without Allah means (if anything). These are the reasons why I chose Ilhad (Atheism) rather than Islam. ALLAH AND OMNISCIENCE One of the definitions that Muslims, I assume, would agree to for Allah, is that of a being who is, among other things, infinite in knowledge. Allah knows all things, even what your heart conceals. This makes sense for a being that is unlimited; such a being should know all things at all times. With this I would like to explore this idea, and begin with an attempt to apply the popular "free will" argument to this concept. Suppose it is the time just prior to the creation of the earth. For the sake of a rough estimate to just throw out there, we'll say this is six billion years ago. At this point, does Allah know what sins Bob Smith of Chicago Illinois is going to commit in July of 2001? If the scope of what Allah can see, and what Allah knows is unlimited, then surely He knows what Bob is going to do, and knew such things six billion years before old Bob was even born! That being established, suppose that before the first human is even created, the following HYPOTHETICAL discussion takes place between God and one of his angels: ANGEL: Oh Allah, the most benevolent, ever-merciful, will your servant Bob Smith ever commit a sin? ALLAH: Yes he will. ANGEL: Ya Allah, could you please name one sin he will commit? ALLAH: Bob will consume eight ounces of khamr on July 4th, 2001. Now, if Allah knew what Bob was going to do before he was even born, how could Bob do anything else? If Bob decided to instead heed the Islamic prohibition on liquor, then that would make Allah a liar six billion years prior, which is impossible. However, if Allah knows everything Bob is going to do, then it it is as if he is pre-programmed, and the events of Bob's life are obviously predetermined. If Bob's life if predetermined, he cannot be considered guilty of any "sin" he "commits." This sort of concept begins to hi-light the illogical notion of Allah's omniscience with regards to His creation. Rather than focusing on one being, let us consider his entire creation. At what point is an action the will of Allah, and at what point is an action the result of an independent decision on the part of one of His creations? Do these two things overlap? At the very creation of the universe, Allah must have instantly known everything that was going to happen, from this moment, all the way to judgment day, and every day in paradise, with his servants and their seventy virgins relaxing by a river of khamr. That means that Allah already knew who was going to believe, and who was not, how many would go to hell, how many would go to heaven, which prophets would be killed, et cetera. The entire history of life, past, present, and future, was predetermined. All these events have already happened in the mind of Allah, thus every being is simply going through the motions. There is no way you can truly change your life, as everything you will ever do, was already "written." You have no real choices, as there is only one possibility for you considering that it was already known what you were going to do before you or your ancestors were even created. Thus, it would seem that free will and an eternally omniscient Allah are wholly incompatible and incoherent. On a similar track, the very idea of prayer comes off as totally absurd in light of Allah's alleged omniscience. What are you praying for? If a farmer in Afghanistan prays for rain, he is wasting his time. Billions of years before that man was even born Allah already decided whether or not it would rain that day. Allah knew exactly when every single event would and would not happen, thus to pray for something seems a bit pointless. A prayer for change is worthless, as all things are predetermined if Allah is omniscient. Thus, one would have to conclude that prayers are not for asking for change, but rather meant only to praise Allah. It seems unbecoming of an infinite being, watching over an infinite universe, to order that men praise him five times a day (bargained down from fifty after Muhammad and Moses questioned Allah's original orders according to certain ahadith). Furthermore, due to Allah's omniscience, Allah already knew from the very start who would praise Him, when, and how many times. He knew the exact amount of prayers He would receive over the course of history, thus the idea of prayer being only a method of praising Allah is a bit unspectacular. The idea of prayer being a source of psychological benefit is also absurd, as it was already predetermined who would go crazy and who would benefit psychologically. Another problem with Allah's alleged omniscience is that it cancels out His attribute of being omnipotent. It is totally illogical to claim that a being is both all-knowing and all-powerful. If Allah, six billion years ago, knew everything that would happen after that point, for the rest of eternity, then He would be limiting Himself. Does Allah know every decision and action He will make after that point? If so, he cannot do otherwise. As George Smith put it, "If God knows the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it-in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it prior to its actual happening-in which case he cannot be omniscient." [Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God, (1989, Prometheus) p. 74] To make it more clear, consider the following sequence of statements: (1) Allah is omniscient, i.e. He knows all things. (2) Allah is omnipotent, i.e. He can do all things. (3) Allah knows everything that He will ever do after this point [from (1)]. (4) Allah can do anything He pleases, at anytime He pleases [from (2)]. (5) Allah can change His mind about what he planned to do [from (2) & (4)]. (6) If Allah can change His mind, and do something different from what he originally planned to do, then He did not originally know what He was going to do. If Allah knows everything that will happen, then He cannot change it. If it is open to change, then He does not know everything that will happen. For example, if Allah, six billion years ago, told His angels that "on December 31, 2001 I will make it snow in Montreal, Canada," He, from that point, is locked to that event, and is no longer free. If on December 31 2001 it does not snow in Montreal, then Allah either lied (which surely Allah does not do), or He did not really know what was going to happen. However, if Allah knows that He will make it snow on 12/31/2001 six billion years before He does so, but decides on December 23rd not to make it snow, then He really didn't know what was going to happen, as He made an incorrect prediction six billion years prior. With the concept of omnipotence and omniscience, Allah is continually contradicting Himself, and continually locking Himself to an event. Either he knows what He is going to do, and cannot change it, or He is not so sure what will happen, and is free to make any decision. The only way to escape this contradiction is to admit that Allah is either not omnipotent, or not omniscient. If the Muslim wants to present a logical deity, then he must admit that this deity, Allah, is a limited being due to the fact that one of the aforementioned unlimited attributes must be discarded. ALLAH AND OMNIPOTENCE If Allah is omnipotent, then He can do anything, and He can create anything. As was just shown, the concept of omnipotence contradicts the concept of omniscience, thus for Allah to be truly omnipotent, He would have to be limited in knowledge (as odd as that may sound). If this is in fact the case, then that would in itself negate Allah's omnipotence, as there would already be one thing Allah could not do: make Himself omniscient! The contradiction of omnipotence and omniscience aside, there are other seemingly irreconcilable problems with the concept of an all-powerful deity. What can Allah create? If He is omnipotent, then He can create everything and anything. This is where questions that theists hate comes in. Can Allah create a four-sided triangle? Some theists, including Muslims, have argued that this is an unfair question, as we are asking Allah to create something in a way that is totally opposite to its definition. Regardless, this shows how human beings can limit what Allah can do by way of our own definitions. It is my opinion that "Allah," or "God" is an ambiguous sound that was created by human language, and because of this He/She/It can be limited through human language. Regardless, Christian and Muslim theologians/philosophers (from Saint Aquinas to Ibn Sina) have tried to escape such questions by arguing that God can only do what is possible, and not do what is impossible. This has been an attempt to salvage the concept of God/Allah's omnipotence, but it instead admits that He is limited in power. There are things that are even impossible for Allah, hence Allah's powers are limited, thus Allah is a limited being. Then, to take a page from theist arguments, one might ask "who put those limitations on Allah?" I think from here one could understand that limitations are simply given and defined by the eternal laws of the mathematics, the universe, nature, et cetera, and there is no reason to assume limitations and rules must have a source. Thus cosmological and design arguments become worthless, but that's an entirely different conversation. In July of 2000, physicists, ended a conference on superstring theory at the University of Michigan with a session called "Millennium Madness," choosing 10 of the most perplexing problems in their field. On August 15th, the New York Times ran an article titled "10 Questions to Ponder for a Millennium or Two," which covered this conference, and one of the questions was as follows: "Are all the (measurable) dimensionless parameters that characterize the physical universe calculable in principle or are some merely determined by historical or quantum mechanical accident and uncalculable?" Einstein put it more crisply: did God have a choice in creating the universe? Imagine Allah sitting at His control console, preparing to set off the Big Bang. "How fast should I set the speed of light?" "How much charge should I give this little speck called an electron?" "What value should I give to Planck's constant, the parameter that determines the size of the tiny packets -- the quanta -- in which energy shall be parceled?" Was He randomly dashing off numbers to meet a deadline? Or do the values have to be what they are because of a deep, hidden logic? These kinds of questions come to a point with a conundrum involving a mysterious number called alpha. If you square the charge of the electron and then divide it by the speed of light times Planck's constant, all the dimensions (mass, time and distance) cancel out, yielding a so-called "pure number" -- alpha, which is just slightly over 1/137. But why is it not precisely 1/137 or some other value entirely? Physicists and even mystics have tried in vain to explain why. This relates to Allah's alleged omnipotence because one wonders if the laws of the universe are created, or simply given. Can the allegedly omnipotent Allah control and manipulate the laws of physics, mathematics, et cetera? My favorite example has always been that of the two stones. If a person has one stone, and then adds a second stone to his collection, he will have two stones. No more, no less. This is because in the physical world, 1+1=2. Could Allah escape this fact? Or is even He subject to the laws of mathematics? If Allah had one stone, and added another stone, is there any way He could end up with more or less than two stones? Could He do so without cheating (i.e. creating new stones, breaking the stones, making stones disappear, et cetera)? In short, Allah, or any being that we assume exists, would have to be subject to the laws of the universe. Allah cannot create four-sided triangles; He cannot alter the rules of mathematics. These laws cannot be changed because they are not created. They are simply given facts. The laws of the universe do not require some sort of law giver, and the very nature of these laws help to totally discredit the concept of omnipotence. ALLAH AND INFINITY Is Allah an infinite being? What does this mean in light of the claims of other religions with regards to anthropomorphism? The great Pantheist/Buddhist thinker Brett Neichin was once asked by a Christian if he believed Jesus was God. Neichin, who was not, and to this day is not a Christian, replied that he indeed felt Jesus was God, but he also felt that the Christian asking the question was God, that he himself was God, that the chairs and table were God (not Gods), et cetera. Muslims might consider the opinion of some Mushrik Pantheist/Buddhist named Brett Neichin to be pointless, but it does relate. As Neichin himself once put it, "when you point to something that isn't God, you've just limited God." If Allah and His creation are totally separate, one would wonder where Allah ends and His creation begins. A truly unlimited being would have to be all encompassing, and everywhere. If Isa ibn Maryam was not Allah, then Allah was/is limited. If the current Agha Khan is not Allah incarnate, then Allah is limited. We have found a spot where divinity is not present: it is in the flesh of the current Agha Khan (the great spiritual leader of the anthropomorphist Isma'ili sect of Islam). If Allah is at point X, and the body of the Agha Khan is at point Y, then Allah is limited. It is that simple. The few Muslims who I have pushed this point to would then argue that, if this is true, it also means that Fard Muhammad was Allah (which means the NOI was right after all!), that drugs are part of Allah, that excrement is part of Allah, that pigs are part of Allah, that poisonous plants are part of Allah, et cetera. To them this seems wholly absurd and unthinkable. One Muslim might ask "so you really think Fard Muhammad was God?" The answer is no. I don't believe Allah exists. However, if we are going to claim the existence of an unlimited being, we must be consistent. If the being is at one point, and not another, he/she/it is limited. To be truly unlimited, the being must be in all things, and be all things. The concept of Allah being unlimited is also weakened by certain aspects of the Islamic literature (particularly certain ahadith). In sura al-A'raf, we have Moses speaking with Allah up on a mountain (Sinai?). Why is it that Moses would have to go to a certain spot to meet Allah? Is Allah limited, and at a given spot? That is a moot point, but a stronger point is the idea that the believers will be able to see Allah after judgment day. If Allah can be seen, then that means he has a shape, volume, color, and is thus limited. There is also the concept of Allah's throne, which seems very physical according to what we find in the Qur'an and ahadith, thus if Allah is sitting at a given point, at a given time, He has very physical characteristics, and is limited. It would seem that at a later time Muslims have tried to reconcile and reinterpret these curious passages. Now, some might feel there is a contradiction in this article, as it is claimed that if Allah is unlimited, then Jesus (assuming he existed) must've been Allah. Then in the next paragraph, above, it is argued that if a being has a shape, volume, color, he/she/it is limited. The argument is not that only Jesus and Fard Muhammad were divine, but ALL things. Every inch of our entire universe must be a part of Allah if He is truly infinite. However, the problem with that is things within our universe change, and it would seem that change, as was pointed out by Aristotle long ago, negates perfection. The point of all this is to show the absurd nature of the concept of an unlimited being. PROOF OF ALLAH'S EXISTENCE Whenever I'm in discussions with Muslims, I ask that they prove the existence of Allah rather than just claiming such. The reality is they cannot offer any proof, because, in my humble opinion, there is no proof. The most popular argument used by Muslims seems to be the design argument (which is odd considering that the kalam cosmological argument was perfected by Muslims, but I'll touch on that a bit later). The basic (and wholly circular) design argument from Muslims goes something to the effect of "if something as complex as life wasn't created by Allah, then how was it made? Did it just pop out of thin air?" My favorite response to such questions is to proclaim that the world, and all things within it were created by three green elves from dimension X. If the three green elves didn't create the world, do you assume it just appeared out of no where? The problem is the same: you are simply asserting that the world is designed and that Allah (or the 3 elves in my case) is the designer. This is not a proof. Furthermore, as I've already shown, we must conclude that Allah is limited, or at least that the laws of the universe do not need a creator. Based on that, we know that not all things need a creator. Regardless, don't assert that Allah is the creator; prove it! The design argument does nothing of the sort. Some of the more intellectual Muslims I've encountered have tried to run the cosmological argument. It is actually the same argument, only instead of saying that life's complexities point to Allah, it is argued that everything points to Allah. The argument is that every thing has a cause, and it is impossible to have an infinite regress of causes (this assertion has yet to be proven), and thus Allah is the first cause (another baseless assertion). Once again, it runs along the lines of "if Allah didn't create the universe, who did?" The problem with this is that it is never proven that Allah is this alleged first cause. We could just the same state that all things need a cause, and thus wonder "what caused Allah?" The supporters of this argument want us to just accept the premise that Allah is the first cause, and does not Himself need a cause, which is a case of special pleading, i.e. a fallacy. Quickly, I'd like to explain why Allah's existence can never really be proven, short of Him actually revealing himself. To set an example, I'd first like to offer what I call "the argument from presents" for Santa's existence: (1) If there are presents under my tree, Santa Claus exists. (2) There are presents under my tree. ---------------------------------------------------------- (3) Santa Claus exists. This argument is perfectly valid. Now suppose I used this argument, and pointed to actual presents under my tree. Would this be proof that Santa Claus exists? Despite the fact that it is a valid argument, this is not a proof for Santa Claus' existence. To understand why, one would need a basic knowledge of sentential logic. I'll try to quickly explain it here. Let P stand for "there are presents under my tree," and let S stand for "Santa Claus exists." I will now construct a logical truth table for all the possibilities: - P - S --------- - T - T - T - F - F - T - F - F These are all the possible "truths" for these two statements. Now note the second line. It is possible for presents to be under my tree, and it is also possible for Santa to not exist. Thus, according to sentential logic, P does not imply S. That is the reason that the perfectly valid "argument from presents" does not prove Santa's existence. Anytime that you claim that a totally ambiguous and unobservable entity ("Santa Claus," "God," "the Pink Unicorn," "the 3 Green Elves from Dimension X," et cetera) exists, and try to prove it pointing to something common, it can be argued that the existence of the common thing does not automatically imply the existence of the baseless and/or undefined thing you are trying to prove. Complex life forms do not imply Allah's existence any more than they imply the existence of the aforementioned Three Green Elves from Dimension X. The existence of the universe does not imply Allah's existence. The following argument is the outline of all proofs for Allah's existence: (1) If X, then Allah exists. (2) X. --------------------- (3) Allah exists. While this argument is logically valid, it does not prove that Allah exists because X does not necessarily imply Allah's existence, thus the first premise is erroneous. This is why every argument for Allah's existence can be shot down so easily. It is not that the wicked Mulhid (atheist) is being unfair or irrational. Rather it is because the Muslim pushing these arguments does not understand why the logic behind them is not totally sound. To this point I have, in my opinion, discredited the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, unlimited Allah, and I have also shown why all arguments for His existence are somewhat fallacious. At this point, emotion comes in, and some Muslims might say that they feel Allah deep in their heart. A sincere gut feeling is not proof of anything, as many people sincerely believe many things, and many of these sincere beliefs contradict one another. Many people living in Christian dominated countries (including yours truly) have had experiences such as Jesus coming to them in a dream, telling them that he died for their sins, and is God, the son of God, et cetera, thus if sincere gut feelings or amazing transcendent experiences are some sort of proof, these sorts of things discredit Islam, and prove Christianity. With that being said, some Muslims might say that they can't imagine a world without Allah. What is the point of life if Allah does not exist? I wonder what is the point of life either way. ALLAH'S SIGNIFICANCE The more I ponder the existence of a god, be it the deity of Islam or any other respective faith, the less sense any of it makes. Purandara Dasa said that the only thing that makes life worth living is God. Blaise Pascal's famous "wager" basically argued that we should believe in God, just in case. The question is why? What is the significance of Allah, and how does this make any difference in one's life? Buddha was once, according Hinayana and Mahayana tradition, asked by his disciples if God existed, to which the Buddha replied something along the lines of "who cares?" It seems that Islam, much like Christianity, keeps its believers in line via threats of eternal torment. With all due respect, the descriptions of Jahannam seem crude, and are only slightly more logical than the concept of hell in Christianity. Is this the point of your life? To avoid punishment at the hands of a being more powerful than you? Is that not coercion? To threaten someone, and say "do as I say, or I will punish you severely" is cruel, and very unbecoming of an allegedly merciful being. Furthermore, within the scope of eternity, no punishment seems all that bad. Even the Islamic hell, where skins are roasted off and then replaced, is nothing to be feared. Eternity means forever, and one would think that after a few billion years they could get used to such treatment. Imagine if I punched you in the chest, leaving a bruise. Then I waited for the bruise to heal, and punched you again, and continued the cycle for the rest of our lives. After this cycle had repeated a few times, I imagine you would be used to the punches. Just the same, after about thirty trillion years, a man might actually be looking forward to his new skin suit. In short, eternal punishment is not any sort of punishment at all. Is life meant only for appeasing the whims of a cosmic bully? I would assume no Muslim would see it that way. Instead, I think many believers of any particular strain of Christo-Islamic faith would argue that it is not so much an attempt to escape punishment as it is to make it to heaven/paradise. How many times have we seen images on television of a young Muslims getting ready to fight some Western imperialist force (be it the Israelis or the Soviets) saying that he is not afraid to die, as then he will be a shaheed (martyr) and go to paradise. Is life solely meant for gaining some sort of physical reward? Virgins? Gardens? Rivers of khamr? It would seem that Islam still pushes for some sort of materialistic desire to be acheived in a very earthly paradise. Don't lead a materialistic life here, because you'll have plenty of time to do so in the next. Do not have sexual relations with numerous women in this life, because you'll have time to do that in the next. Do not drink khamr in this life, but in the next it will flow in rivers (Sura Muhammad 47:15). This is not only mildly hypocritical, but it is also seemingly pointless to live one's life solely for the sake of some sort of personal gain. The third and final reason to serve Allah, assuming He exists, is simply for the sake of doing it. Christians "serve" God as part of a "relationship" they have with God; out of love for God. Just the same, it would seem some Muslims, though not claiming to have a relationship with Allah, express deep love for their respective deity. That is perfectly all right, but what does that have to do with anyone else? I think this hi-lights a simple fact that human beings form relationships with or interact with other beings for only three reasons: (1) To gain something. (2) To avoid pain, suffering, or punishment. (3) Out of simple respect for that being. This is the case with all beings, from our pets, to other humans, to our respective deity (assuming we have one). Therefore, Allah is no more different from any other being in the grand scheme of things. You love Allah, and I love my cat and my girlfriend; and if Bill Clinton threatened to have me killed for disputing the legitimacy of his claim to the presidency, I would not think of him as an honorable or merciful being. CONCLUSION Allah's alleged attributes are both illogical and incoherent. The reasons for believing that He exists have been shown to be either fallacious or pointless. No proof for His alleged existence has ever been provided. The very idea of His existence is of a fantastic nature, and thus questionable. It is for all these reasons that I submit to you that Allah does not exist. This is why I am an Atheist, and not a Muslim. |
Replies:
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 12:07pm
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an educated Westerner A bit of a contradiction of terms. You mean a westerner who has been trained to read, write, count, add, subtract and "reason" enough to be a consumer? Education begins where reasoning ends. Someone with even a slight taste of "education" won't prostitute one's ignorance with such effort!! |
Posted By: hurrikanemt
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 12:54pm
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I've already decided that what you're writing is a waste of time, and im not going to waste my time reading it...As i skimmed through it, I realized, I've already heard many of these arguments... In no way shape or form does an Athiest have any real proof or evidence to disprove the existence of God. Every one of your so called "arguments" are all philosophical in nature.. and in philosophy (by its very nature), you can go and on and basically come to any conclusion, which really means you come to nothing, except a headache. It can cause the reader to get an inferiority complex, but the only one at Fault is the Philosopher himself. Point in fact --- Your Arguments are Whimsical... They are not the reason behind your disbelief at all.. Your disbelief comes from something else... Your heart still believes and knows theres a God, its simply covered with dust. If, for instance, you were in a life threatening situation (say you were in a storm on a ship and you were about to die)... You would get on your knees and pray to God. That is something called human nature... An athiest, an idol worshipper, no matter who.. ALL would turn and ask GOD, and only GOD for help at that moment. That is, in and of itself, a proof for God's existence. Before I go on, let me just explain the meaning of Kufr (Disbelief). The linguistical meaning of the word Kufr is to cover up to the extent that something is destroyed. In Islam, Kufr means absence of Iman (that feeling of Faith) from a person, even if his heart believes. The question is, what causes someone to deny? What causes someone to reject or doubt or turn away? It is due to arrogance, UNGRATEFULNESS, and all those things which cause Iman in the heart to weaken. Athiesm by its very nature is foolish.. Most people recognize this fact. About 99% + of the world believes in God (though many commit Shirk with this belief). Less than 1% completely deny His existence (Athiesm). Lately, in America, Athiesm has been growing. These are some reasons why it has been growing: 1) Technology - With technology, man gets this feeling of arrogance that he can control and explain everything. 2) The Failure of Christianity - Led to movements like Separation of Church and State... Theres an idea in the West that there can be no true religion except Christianity, so if Xnity cant work, than nothing can. 3) Darwinism 4) The following of Desires - You want to live your life as you want to. 5) Materialism - The luxuries of America (if you go to a supermarket there are 20 varities of bread!) and we get accustomed to it. We take these things for granted (Materialism and Athiesm usually go hand in hand) 6) We have been cut off from nature - Try growing food. There is no doubt, you would have to make Dua to Allah. Also we are cut off from a lot of the AYAT (signs)! Athiests are simply arrogant, the arguments used by athiests are not what lead to athiesm, but arrogance and all the other reasons... The arguments are just meant to bring doubt to the heart... Let me show you some Questions Athiests pose to Believers: ARGUMENT A: All religions claim that God is an All Powerful entity. Fine, let me ask you: Is it possible that God can create something so heavy that He cannot lift it? Either way you answer, you have shown that He is not all-powerful. Answer: Time and Space are created. Allah cannot be ruled by time and space. The Question is nonsensicle. You are limiting Allah to your perceptions. ARGUMENT B: All religions claim that God can do anything. Is it possible for God to create a circle with 4 sides or an object that exists and does not at the same time? Answer: There is no such thing as a circle with four sides. By Definition, it is not possible. NONSENSICLE. The question is flawed in the first place! ARGUMENT C: Modern Science has proven that life exists as it exists today as a result of direct evolution from previous forms of life. Therefore, it is clear that there is no Creator who needed to create. Science explains everything... Answer: It is not true. It is a theory and it can be refuted in a million ways. Science explains nothing. It only attempts to explain some aspects of how - never why! ARGUMENT D: It is historically clear that religions have been tools used by the powers that are to control the masses. Religion is the single most important cause of upheaval, wars, and death. Is it possible that a true religion would allow this? Answer: 1) Not historically clear (Only Christianity: It is not right to assume that every religion is this way because Xnity is this way, but to the Western Philosopher Xnity is the best possible religion) 2) There are so many huge wars and fights not due to religion (WWI WWII). Religion is just emphasized in War on the Media (Islam on the Media). 3) More people killed due to Greed. 4) Islam kept the Khalifa in order. (Most Muslims would love to have a Khalifa and an Islamic State once again because they know how great it was and Muslims love their history) ARGUMENT E: It is not possible for an All-Merciful God to allow such suffering as we see in the world today. People are dying of hunger and starvation, natural disasters, etc. The existence of evil clearly proves that an All-Powerful, All-Merciful God cannot exist. Answer: 1) Being very 1 dimensional. Thinking only of the Dunya (this world) and not the Akhira (next world). When the Believer suffers he expects to be rewarded. The believer would wish to suffer more when he sees his reward! 2) Evil exists because of sin. Fasad is here because of the hands of men. When Allah addresses man He tells them that whatever evil happens to you, it is because of your hands. 3) There is Divine Wisdom in these Disasters. It brings you closer to God. 4) It is the existence of these Disasters which brings about good deeds (Mercy in peoples hearts, etc). 5) Makes a person appreciate the blessings of Allah (SWT) much more. Also, there is no such thing as pure evil in Islam. Everything that exists there is something good in it! Even in Allah's Creation if Iblis (Satan), there is Wisdom. Anyone who is sincere to his Fitrah (Natural Compass that points one to the Truth and goodness.. something we are all born with) Allah will guide him to Islam. Let me show you some of the many proofs for Allah's existence: CREATION Surah AtTur:35 - "Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?" Surah Mulk: 3-4 - "Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder? Then turn back the eye again and again; your look shall '~ come back to you confused while it is fatigued." Surah Luqman: 11 - " This is the Creation of Allah. Now show me that which those (ye worship) beside Him have created. Nay, but the wrong-doers are in error manifest!" Surah Hajj: 73 - "O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!" NOTE: If a fly takes food from one of these "gods" people worship, this "god" will not be able to get it back. Today, many people worship scientists.. yet even a scientist wont be able to get the Food back from the fly, since a fly's digestive system is on its mouth - right when it comes in contact with the food, it is digested and the different compounds distributed to the flys body. Surah Baqarah: 164 - "Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise." FITRAH (Subconscious Nature) We need simply to ask ourselves, where did we get this knowledge from (Right or Wrong, Good or Bad)? Surah Rum: 30 - "So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not -" All children are born upon a Fitrah, then his parents make him a Jew, Christian, etc. The origin of the Fitrah is the Mithaq (the Covenant) Surah Araf: 172 - "When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":" Allah has left the remnants of this Covenant we ALL had to take - its called the Fitrah. If we remembered the Mithaq (the Covenant), what would be the point of life? But indeed we all have this Fitrah, WE KNOW Allah is the only Lord.. The Quran and Sunnah appeal to the Fitrah - This is why so many people accept Islam. It is the fastest growing religion in the world and in America.. It also spread around the world at a rate faster and before any other religion. THE INNATE FEELING of helplessness, and turning to a Creator is alone proof there is a Lord. "No man on the battlefield is an athiest" - Winston Churchill (I think). SENDING PROPHETS AND BOOKS The very fact that there are people claiming to be the representatives of the Lord, and the perfectness of thier lives, and their giving away of wealth, and all the miracles done (splitting water, etc), and the Quran is proof there is a Rabb(Lord) EVERYTHING IS PROOF AND IS SCREAMING ALLAH IS RABB!!! There are also many Western Proofs for the existence of God, but they are very philosophical and lead to problem areas.. The Islamic Proofs are Pure, Simple, Solid, Comprehensible, Sensible, Universal, and Self Evident... All Proof that Islam is from Allah... even a 5 yr old can understand them. For the record, let me say, I will never win an argument with a philosopher. My only point was to bring light to those who actually use their brains. So go ahead and reply and philosophize about this and that if you want. May Allah Guide you. And if you truly don't think you are arrogant.. then put ur face down on the ground and ask Allah "Guide me" and be sincere.. What do you have to lose? Only a humble person can do such a thing... |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 2:03pm
|
I've already decided that what you're writing is a waste of timeI've already decided that what you're writing is a waste of time Brother why waste any energy at all on such trash? Please leave the poor chap alone. He has nothing else to do in his absolutely empty life. Do you understand Farsi? Urfi tu mendesh ez ghoghaiye raqeebaan - ke awaaz e sagaan kum na kunand rizq e gadaara. How wise is it to answer a street dog's bark? |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 3:48pm
Hi Whisper, You appear to have a problem with the content of the article. Is there any particular part that you might like to point-out that demonstrates the "trash" you speak of? Whisper, what you have written here is so unbecoming, you know nothing about what else I have to do with the life I live. Even if you did, it makes no difference to what is contained in the article, whether I were the author or not. You are commiting a common logical fallacy that is known as - read the following and you might get to understand your error. argumentum ad hominem Definition:
argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked. Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to gain from a favourable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.
There are three major forms of Attacking the Person:
(1) ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion,
(2) ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an
(3) ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the
following a fad. (ad hominem abusive) (ii) We should discount what Premier Klein says about taxation because he won't be hurt by the increase. (ad hominem circumstantial) (iii) We should disregard Share B.C.'s argument because they are being funded by the logging industry. (ad hominem circumstantial) (iv) You say I shouldn't drink, but you haven't been sober for more than a year. (ad hominem tu quoque)
circumstances of the person has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the proposition being defended.
---------------------------------------------------------- ----------- To get this thread back on to the subject................ Are there any comments or thoughts on the original article that was posted?...............please feel free to discuss. |
Whisper wrote:Posted By: hurrikanemt
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 8:16pm
| No, you're right Whisper. It is self evident the falsity of his claims. I should not have even tried to refute it.. Its like refuting a person who claims we are not human beings but monkeys... For such a person, refutation is not neccessary. Asalamu Alaikum... InshAllah I use better judgement next time. |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 8:53pm
|
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 08 October 2005 at 11:04pm
|
Whisper, what you have written here is so unbecoming, you know nothing about what else I have to do with the life I live. My response is exactly what your "education" deserves. Thank you for your extremely "literary" lecture, I am not in the habit of standing idots and time wasters. |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 2:21pm
|
As Salamu Alaykum wa Ramadan Mubarak, In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful,
Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty, - (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=2 - - #3 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=2#105 - - #105 ) Those men, -(Allah) knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their very souls. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2 - - #4 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2#63 - - #63 ) Say: "For me, I (work) on a clear sign from my Lord, but ye reject Him. What ye would see hastened, is not in my power. The command rests with none but Allah. He declares the truth, and He is the best of judges." (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2 - - #6 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2#57 - - #57 ) With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read). (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2 - - #6 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2#59 - - #59 ) Thus do we explain the signs by various (symbols): that they may say, "Thou hast taught (us) diligently," and that We may make the matter clear to those who know. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2 - - #6 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2#105 - - #105 ) But when Our clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)." (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=10&translator=2 - - #10 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=10&translator=2#15 - - #15 ) Those who reject Allah, hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and resist the Messenger, after Guidance has been clearly shown to them, will not injure Allah in the least, but He will make their deeds of no effect. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=47&translator=2 - - #47 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=47&translator=2#32 - - #32 ) Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the mead of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards Allah. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed." And what reason have I that I should not serve Him Who brought me into existence? And to Him you shall be brought back; (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=36&translator=3 - - #36 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=36&translator=3#22 - - #22 ) And thus did We reveal to you an inspired book by Our command. You did not know what the Book was, nor (what) the faith (was), but We made it a light, guiding thereby whom We please of Our servants; and most surely you show the way to the right path: (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=42&translator=3 - - #42 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=42&translator=3#52 - - #52 ) He it is Who sent down tranquility into the hearts of the believers that they might have more of faith added to their faith-- and Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Knowing, Wise-- (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=48&translator=3 - - #48 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=48&translator=3#4 - - #4 ) They think that they lay you under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under obligation by your Islam: rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=49&translator=3 - - #49 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=49&translator=3#17 - - #17 ) And strive hard in Allah�s Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islamic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islam), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship; it is the religion of your father Ibrahim (Abraham) (Islamic Monotheism). It is He (Allah) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Qur�an), that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind! So perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), give Zakat and hold fast to Allah (i.e. have confidence in Allah, and depend upon Him in all your affairs) He is your Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.), what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.) and what an Excellent Helper! (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=22&translator=5 - - #22 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=22&translator=5#78 - - #78 ) All Praise belongs to Allah. We Praise Him, we seek His Guidance and we beg for His forgiveness. We seek refuge in Allah from the evil of our souls and we seek refuge in Allah from the evil of what our hands put forth. To whom Allah Guides there is no one that can lead them astray. Those to whom Allah permits to be led astray, they have no one to guide them. I bear witness there is nothing worthy of worship besides Allah. He is unique and has no associates. I bear witness that Muhammad Ibn Abdullah is the universal Messenger. Peace and blessing be upon him and upon on the Prophet�s family and noble companions. O you who believe: fear Allah as he should be feared and die not except as a Muslim. As for me, my effort is with my fellow brothers and sisters. We strive together, our mutual struggle to encourage each other to enjoin the good and prohibit evil. While it is curious to acknowledge, however briefly, the efforts of those who would engage in the speculative, our time is best served in actions which encourage us to fulfill a much higher purpose. If one�s objective, if one�s effort is truth, one should seek it for it�s sake, let it motivate one to actions which are and have been encouraged by religion and its true and sincere adherents alone for thousands of years. In the ideal sense, a Muslim is called to bring Islam to the world by examples of righteous character. A Muslim is called to vice regency by his Lord, to exemplify integrity, dignity, sincerity and resolve. A Muslim is called to persevere throughout the trials and adversity of this life, as it is a test for the worthiness of this life, the aspiration to a higher ideal, and the benefits of (if one believes) the hereafter. This is a mindset not unique to Islam, and is mirrored in every noble tradition which preceded it. This is our goal, this is our purpose, this is our resolve. It is a motivation inspired by the Word of God and expounded upon by teachers past, culminating in the life of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW). While one chooses to expound upon the perceived illegitimacy of that life by the refutation of the motivating force, I would remind all that the source of that motivation has echoed throughout the millennia, from age to age, in tongues domestic and foreign, has survived centuries of existence and thrives in the best of times and times perceived as �Godless�. This, more than anything, proves the existence of God in that it is an accepted expectation to either embrace or deny. Or in other words, why waste the effort fighting against that which does not exist? Fight poverty, fight crime, fight man�s inhumanity to man � but fighting God? If He doesn�t exist, it�s pointless my friend; if He does exist � equally pointless. As for me, existence has quite a few other worthy causes to engage in. Our challenge is to encourage each other to meet them. In this is our existence justified, in this our life has meaning, in this are we found worthy � in our eyes and, if you believe, the eyes of Allah. ------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 8:02pm
lol! shows what you know -------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 8:10pm
Skswsdom, do you think you can lower your font size, please  ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 8:46pm
|
Asalaamu Alaykum Angel, My apologies. On this page the font size looks normal, on other boards it's a larger size. I'm using Word2000 to cut and paste responses for the sake of brevity and spellchecking; this might be the problem. This was, of course, unintentional and, if I can help it, won't happen in the future. ------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 9:47pm
Cut and paste will do that too, when you have pasted your writing in the post reply box, highlight the text and go to font size and select number 2, that will change it and then submit ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 09 October 2005 at 9:52pm
|
Those men, -(Allah) knows what is in their hearts; My dear brother Skswsdom, why invest so much energy in some dud coin? That's a matter between him and Allah Kareem. Does Allah swt needs our support? Are you originally from Pakistan? If you are I will tell you a story. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 10 October 2005 at 5:00pm
|
I would like Jazz to go to the Islam and science forum regarding
the existence of God 2006 forum. I discussed with an atheist regarding the issue of God (The supreme and merciful) he designer and the others who atheist would say are other possible myths that created the world.... |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 11 October 2005 at 4:30am
In the Name of Allah The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful ...
And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Qur��n) that when you hear the Verses of Allah being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allah will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell, (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=5 - - #140 ) When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2 - #6 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2#68 - #68 )
Salaamu Alaykum Whisper,
While it is incumbent upon us as Muslims to facilitate the cause of Islam by way of dau�wa, my post was for my fellow Muslims. However � To those weak of understanding Make not over your property, which Allah hath made a means of support for you, but feed and clothe them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2 - #4 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=2#5 - #5 ) And even if thou hast to turn away from them in pursuit of the Mercy from thy Lord which thou dost expect, yet speak to them a word of easy kindness. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=17&translator=2 - - #28 ) � p.s. I�m from the U. S. ... p.p.s. thanx for the tip Angel :)
------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: mouhssine4
Date Posted: 11 October 2005 at 4:28pm
|
mister jazz you wrote a lot of things you could go one question to an other, the world will not end tomorrow anyhow, from what i could understand and notice you used the word "see" a lot, you see this you see that etc that is all right, as human we do a lot of Remarques and seeing but as humans we are only limited in our seeing, i mean we see left right up and down we see past and present future to some extent what i want to say we are limited to 4 dimensions, but God (Allah in Arabic) is limitless which means to be able to understand his way of seeing and doing things you should be able to see in n dimensions (n is an unlimited number), of course human can not do that. so for you to explain the way Allah sees things or do things is just impossible unless he (Allah) allows it, and i think that in the next life, we will be able to see in that n dimension and we will be able to see how Allah sits on the throne, and how he does it and all the unseen things that you are asking about, but it will be too late for the unbeleivers is nt it until then, use your 4 dimensions capability to see if really God exist or not, look at yourself, things around you. i have always been amazed at the muscle of the heart all other muscle of our body need to be exited by a flux to be able to react, except the muscle of the heart, it start beating by itself, who do you think gave it that flux, of course God the Creator this is only an example, and there are many that we should not over look and to finish, please do read this With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read). (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2 - - #6 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2#59 - - #59 )
------------- if your heart is not clean of hatred, jalousy and all the bad things your salat or priers are not accepted |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:54pm
|
you used the word "see" a lot, you see this you see that etc Brilliant post brother, he used that word for the sheer desire of being able to see. Akhi el aziz, please let him be. Like so many other Amreekis, he is just trying to "find" himself. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 October 2005 at 11:14pm
| No offense Whisper but can you lay off of the "Americans" statements talking about ones nationality is really inappropriate and not the conduct of a Muslim brother.. |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 12 October 2005 at 2:13am
|
Brother Israfil I respect your point but why be so sensitive about it? I am a simple straighforward Afghan, as long as US troops are on my soil, I chose to keep my present attitude to the American. My brother is what I say worse than leaving DU-238 all over the place? |
Posted By: mouhssine4
Date Posted: 12 October 2005 at 4:05am
|
brother wisper nobody can feel what you feel but israfil is right, an american does not really mean a member of the US gov may Allah liberate your country of invadors ------------- if your heart is not clean of hatred, jalousy and all the bad things your salat or priers are not accepted |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 12 October 2005 at 4:26pm
|
Greetings. The problem with your contribution is that it argues about Gd who is "all powerful", but then concludes that He cannot be "All Powerful" due to a constraint that would only be a constraint to something that is not "all powerful". You cannot have it both ways. Either you define Gd as all powerful and continue an argument from that point, or you talk about another gd who is not all powerful such that you can demonstrate all of the "physical constraints" that all the rest of us are bound by which is of the class of all created things.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 12 October 2005 at 4:36pm
Assalam Aleikum. I am an "Amreeki". I found myself in my search for Gd, and now I am Muslim. The first step to enlightenment is asking the right question. "America" is still my home, as it is to my family and many others who also "found themselves" and are now Muslim. Jazakallahu kair ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 12:08am
|
I am an "Amreeki". My friend, Amreeki is not a nationality or the act of being in some place, it's just a certain state of mind. When this dream "never ending war" collapses, you would possibly be able to understand what is that state of mind. |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 12:10am
|
but israfil is right, an american does not really mean a member of the US gov I love you and Israfil both. I respect your points. But I was given to understand that the Amreekis elect their government? |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 4:16am
Cryptic, if not arrogant and utterly condescending. What does war have to do with an atheist contributing a bad argument in a disingenuous attempt at dialogue with a "state of mind" that an American cannot understand? ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 5:10am
|
�The essence of civilization is the orderly quest for truth, the rational perception of reality and all its facets, and the adaptation of man's behavior to its laws. So long as we follow the path of reason, we shall not move far from the lighted circle of civilization. Its enemies invariably lie among those who, for whatever motive, deny, distort, minimize, exaggerate or poison the truth, and who falsify the processes of reason. At all times civilization has its enemies, though they are constantly changing their guise and their weapons. The great defensive art is to detect and unmask them before the damage they inflict becomes fatal. 'Hell.' wrote Thomas Hobbes, 'is truth seen too late.' Survival is falsehood detected in time.� �Civilization is the rational pursuit of truth within a framework of order. The discovery of truth, of course, is part of this ordering process, the way by which man located himself in the universe. This is a very long, complicated, and cumulative process. Man needs to orientate himself in time, by discovering and perfecting chronology; in space, by acquiring geographical and astronomical knowledge; in nature, by discovering its laws and using them to master his environment. He is also engaged in a continuous effort of moral and social orientation, reflected in his attempts to improve his designs for civil government, for legal and ethical codes, and his image of what a just society should be. There is, likewise, a process of moral ordering, in which man seeks to discover his worth in relation to other men, and to the potentialities of his surroundings. Human beings need to know where they stand in all these matters, for such knowledge is an essential element in their security, and in their happiness.�
�Truth is much more than a means to expose the malevolent. It is the great creative force of civilization. For truth is knowledge; and a civilized man is one who, in Hobbes' words, has a "perseverance of delight in the continual and indefatigable generation of knowledge." Hobbes also writes: "Joy, arising from imagination of a man's own power and ability, is that exaltation of mind called glorying." And so it is; for the pursuit of truth is our civilization's glory, and the joy we obtain from it is the nearest we shall approach to happiness, at least on this side of the grave. If we are steadfast in this aim, we need not fear the enemies of society.� Paul Johnson wrote this in his much praised novel �The Enemies of Society�. It is a fascinating treatise concerning the evolution of the community of man, the length of which I won�t go into either in praise of or quoting more thereof; the above is the essence of his work. What I gained from this, what is important to me is the relevance it has to society�s constant problem; how do we coexist with each other? In the world, there is good and evil; between them lie the varying degrees of action which consummate human decisions, i.e. either one advocates towards the good in this decision, one chooses the other in that decision�etc. What is written in response is an advocation of the former. In the Middle East and much of the Muslim world, there is no voice such as this. Even in America, the common man (so to speak) has at least the �perception� of this type of voice. Ultimately of course what the world sees is seen through the lens of the status quo. The lens through which the current US administration is focused is obviously disconcerting, based solely on the impetus and justification of retaliatory measures to 911. What the American people see of this is filtered through a �heightened anxiety driven� or �heightenedly aware� (take your pick) press, and this from sources supplied by a status quo controlled press. It is dangerously assumptive and patently unjust to say that this is the general opinion of the American people. I don�t believe this to be right, but it is the way it is. We could live in a world where dialogue, specifically faith-driven interfaith dialogue, could facilitate the fostering of relationships to promote understanding. We could regard one another as kindred spirits, whose true boundaries are that as struggling souls rather than within the perception of the man-made boundaries of nationalism. We could, if we tried. I feel for my brother when he says that American troops occupy his homeland yet believe me when I say there are brothers and sisters here in America who rail and rally against the occupations of Afghanistan, Iraq and the rest of the Muslim world day after day. There are efforts towards fostering Peace. In the ideal world which Paul Johnson described, what he wrote is true. In an ideal world, what we as Muslims should attempt to do �inshAllah is exactly what he said, to apply the � � great defensive art � to detect and unmask them before the damage they inflict becomes fatal� by enjoining the good and preventing evil. In an ideal world, there are people working together towards a civilization with the same depth and determination that Paul Johnson wrote. There are those who seek �� the rational pursuit of truth within a framework of order�. Unfortunately, we don�t live in an ideal world. We live in a world where the world over Muslims struggle daily for the bare necessities of mere subsistence. We live in a world where the voice of the Muslim is two-fold, either as a quiet majority who observes or survives oppression everywhere, quietly lamenting in acquiescence or as a proactive, violent minority which commits acts of self justified barbarism. We live in the world the Prophet Muhammad (peace_be_upon_him) described in the Hadith Narrated by Thawban: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The people will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their dish. Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that time? He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and last enervation into your hearts. Someone asked: What is wahn (enervation). Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): He replied: Love of the world and dislike of death. (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=37&translator=3&start=0&number=4284 - - #4284 ). We also who live, live in a world of Hope. In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious The Most Merciful � Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=2&translator=2 - - #218 ) Allah made it but a message of hope for you, and an assurance to your hearts: (in any case) there is no help except from Allah. The Exalted, the Wise: (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=2 - - #126 ) If only they had been content with what Allah and His Messenger gave them, and had said, "Sufficient unto us is Allah. Allah and His Messenger will soon give us of His bounty: to Allah do we turn our hopes!" (that would have been the right course). (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=2 - - #59 ) We hope that our Lord will give us in exchange a better (garden) than this. Truly, we turn to our Lord (wishing for good that He may forgive our sins, and reward us in the Hereafter)." (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=68&translator=5 - - #32 ) ------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 6:26am
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Cryptic, if not arrogant and utterly condescending. None of these at all. I told you, you won't understand and come back with some garbbled message. Peace and be at ease. I know it's not easy to be an American these days. |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 11:10am
Curious. Given that you have deflected from your original point into a kind of "diatribe", it seems you lack "self understanding". The point being that you have digressed from your original comment and given that you did not actually have a solid bases for your original point (your sweeping generalization about Americans), you are now "playing it off" by obfuscating this thread. I know it is not easy being "confused" these days. Perhaps you are in need of finding yourself? My intention for making a comment to your "sweeping generalizations" of Americans, was to make the point that "finding yourself" is a completely valid method for realization, and making "sweeping generalizations" is not only "unIslamic" but irrational, and your replies which have completely ignored the spirit of my reply is unfortunate. As far as the athiest is concerned, it would be best to say "alhamdullilah" that we are not so confused, instead of an irrational "sweeping generalization".
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 11:26am
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Curious. Salaam el khair brother. Sorry, you missed my quite vaild point. No need to be terribly sensitive about Amreekism. Peace. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:26pm
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Whisper kindly go to the general forum and read my topic there. |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:35pm
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Whisper kindly go to the general forum and read my topic there. My brother, I will. |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:38pm
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Brother Skswsdom absolutely great post. |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:49pm
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If Allah is omniscient then presumably he knew
when he created the world that I, howard, was going to remain a non-Muslim and that I would be punished in hell for my disbelief in his 'signs'. So why did he let me be born? Ah yes, as a 'test'. But he already knew what the result of the 'test' would be. If he didn't then he isn't omniscient. Presumably when Allah created human beings he knew that even 1400 years after His final revelation to mankind, that over 80% of mankind would still continue not to recognise his 'clear signs'. If Allah did not want such a situation to occur then presumably, through his omnipotence, he could have prevented it. But why did Allah create beings with a free will in the first place when he could have chosen otherwise? In fact why did Allah create human beings at all? Ah yes, as a 'test'. But he already knew what the results of the 'test' would be. If he didn't then he isn't omniscient. But why does Allah want to'test' beings that he himself created? It wasn't I, howard, who asked Allah to create me and other human beings. If Allah decided to create beings with free will then it is Allah himself who is responsible if those beings go astray. It's the creator's fault, not the creation's. |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 7:44pm
Alhamdullilah hira bil Alamiin wa Shukran ------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 9:19pm
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He knew what you would choose before your last moment on earth. Yes.
Perhaps you might ask Him after you die. Afterall, that sounds like a personal question between yourself and your maker.
a "test" is not a "reason" for your birth, but your life is part of a "test". And yes, He knows what YOU will choose.
The WILL of Allah is not the same nor is it "equivalent" to the "desire" or "pleasure" of Allah. Two very different concepts. Your "choosing" to not believe is YOUR choice, given to you by His will, but "His Will" does not always equate to "His desire to force you to choose one way or the other". There are cases where Allah has closed a person's ability to see or hear or understand as part of a punishment brought about by a person's "choice" to rebel or act against believers.
He knew what a person would eventually believe as far as Gd and religion and everything else.
You are trying to brush the entire thread with "test", which is actually a bit ambiguous in your usage. Please clarify. Allah creating your "will", does not mean He forced you into deciding. He created your decision, and He knows what you will decide, which is not the same as "will = pleasure or force". The specific mechanics of how Allah "hears", or "knows", or "creates", or "wills" is beyond man's cognitive abilities, and as a Muslim it is obligatory to believe, and an innovation to try and "figure out", and disbelief to denounce. Humankind accepts things at face value without being able to explain the mechanics of the process, such as "cause and effect". We all accept it, although it is not founded on any rational bases and the mechanics are beyond our abilities. ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 9:42pm
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In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful � � �The Arabic word Islam means submission and obedience to the will of God. It derives from the Arabic word Salaam which means Peace. The religion of Islam is the complete acceptance of the teachings and guidance of God as revealed to His Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him). A Muslim is one who believes in God and strives for total reorganization of his life according to God�s revealed guidance and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. On this basis, A Muslim works towards building a just and moral society. Islam is a religion with an emphasis more in the development of universal ideals, not so much in the way of personality, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism or other religions whose names derive from their initiators �� From an article Islam at a Glance, author unknown A Salaamu Alaykum Howard, As the article suggests, a Muslim�s concern is with the nature of man, not the nature of God. It is our duty as Muslims, our responsibility as agents of vice-regency and our privilege as servants to a higher ideal that we strive daily to fulfill that purpose. It is anathema for a Muslim to wonder �Why was I created � Why am I here?� when there exists so much else to do. Whether we do it or not is another matter entirely. If you would call this a test, so be it. Regardless, Allah does indeed know all, but we his creation do not. I have no idea if you, I or any of us are destined for Heaven or hell. That�s not the point. The point is in the struggle, the work towards the endeavor of worthiness, not in the eyes of God but in each others eyes. Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar (RA): Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim. So he should neither oppress him nor hand him over to an oppressor. And whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs." (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=85&translator=1&start=0&number=83 - - #83 ) Narrated Abu Hurairah (RA): Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said : "Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the greatest falsehood. Do not try to find fault with each other, do not spy on one another, do not vie with one another, do not envy one another, do not be angry with one another, do not turn away from one another, and be servants of Allah, brothers to one another, as you have been enjoined. A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim, he does him no wrong, nor does he let him down, nor does he despise him. Fear of God is here, fear of God is here and he pointed to his chest. It is evil enough that a Muslim should look down on his brother. For every Muslim is sacred to one another: his blood, his honour, and his property. Allah does not look at your bodies or your forms, or your deeds, but He looks at your hearts". ( Bukhari, Muslim ) Narrated Anas (RA) Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: "By Him in whose hand is my soul, a servant (of Allah) does not believe (truly) until he likes for his brother what he likes for himself ". ( Bukhari, Muslim ) The above are three hadiths, sayings or traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace_be_upon_him). Are they not worthy of introspection? Do they not inspire towards more pertinent endeavors? Do they not focus our capacity towards the plight of each other? This is the Muslim perspective brother Howard. This is what we call Al-Deen � The Life. I welcome you with the traditional Islamic greeting of A Salaamu Alaykum or Peace be with you. This is how Muslims greet each other. What is a Muslim? According to Islamic belief a Muslim is an adherent of Islam. Literally, the word means submissive to God. Ponder this �What isn�t submissive to God? ;) Logic would suggest that at this time that one would use the castigating argument �� but I have free will; I, therefor do not submit.� I would postulate the following: Free will is the result of predestination, if you believe in God. Free will is the momentum and result of one�s actions if one believes in one�s self alone. Whatever the motivation, there exist consequences for those actions whether they conform or conflict with the desires of God and man. Yet the consequences of one�s actions does not consume the believer if their cause is sound, moral and true in the beneficial spirit of advancing the social order. To those who aspire to a higher ideal, to those who hold themselves to a higher standard, whose purpose is given to the pursuit of a just society as a whole, who see humanity as the striving towards a harmonious unity of that social order, their lives are lived with the understanding that with patience, perseverance and personal sacrifice the effort is worth it. The effort is worth it. ------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 13 October 2005 at 9:46pm
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Andulus Wrote: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle Salaamu Alaykum brother Andulus, Thank you for this quote. I collect them. I am indebted to you for this. :) JazakAllah Kahirun wa ramadan mubarak. ------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 14 October 2005 at 8:54am
wa aleikum assalam br, and Ramadan mubarak!
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: mouhssine4
Date Posted: 16 October 2005 at 7:18pm
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salam everybody somebody asked this: why did Allah create human beings at all? simply to worship Him. if you want to do it, you will be rewarded here and later too if you do not you will be punished. Prophet are send to warn people and guide them not to force them to worship. here is hwo some people see things suppose you are in a dark room and in this dark room there is a small light bulb, you are asked to look for a key, that key will help you get out of the dark room. what will a wise person do ? he or she will start looking in the area that is covered by the light bulb,(always start with the easy than move to the hard, right) the uliminated area, if he or she does not find the key he or she will look in the area that is dark, obscure, not explained yet. you guys are asking question s about how God sits, speaks, test, know, that is all part of the unseen, and you know that, if your aim is beleiving in some higher power, i guess your questioning is proof that you are against a much higher power than yourself, but if you are trying to raise questions to shake others beleives, just read the holly coran, other groupes had asked similar question to other prophets and most prophet answerd something like this: I am here to warn you and guide you, just take it or leave it. if you want to really take it, read the holly coran, or youssuf ali translations. your heart and your convictions will get you there. salam ------------- if your heart is not clean of hatred, jalousy and all the bad things your salat or priers are not accepted |
Posted By: howard
Date Posted: 20 October 2005 at 5:41pm
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moussine 4
You ask why Allah created human beings and you answer 'to worship him'. Those who do not are hell-bound. So why does Allah NEED to be worshipped by his creation? And If he does really need to be worshipped UNCONDITIONALLY then he could have created beings without a free will. But it was Allah who decided to create beings with a free will. No human being ASKED Allah to be created with (or without) free will. If human beings go astray then ultimately it is not their fault but Allah's. You make Allah sound first, like a salat-junkie who requires a five-time daily fix from his worshippers - worshippers whom he himself created! - and second, like a sadistic egomaniac who will punish those with ever-lasting hell who do not worship him. In fact, it makes me wonder if Musilms really do WORSHIP Allah. They seem to be more interested in PROPITIATING him. Skswsdom writes:
Yes, that's the reason why one "sheikh" in the UK said on TV after the July attacks "IF I KNEW THAT A MUSLIM WAS PREPARING ANOTHER BOMB ATTACK IN LONDON I WOULDN'T REPORT HIM TO THE POLICE BECAUSE ISLAM PROHIBITS A MUSLIM BETRAYING ANOTHER MUSLIM TO A NON-MUSLIM AUTHORITY." There is a simple word for such touching solidarity among the members of the ummah. Evil. |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 20 October 2005 at 10:01pm
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Howard writes: Quote: There is a simple word for such touching solidarity among the members of the ummah.
True. The Quran says:
Sura 4, The Women, verse 135.
Sura 16, The Bee, verse 90.
Excerpt from a speech to the Grand Assembly in Kyoto Japan by Sheikh Ahmad Kuftaro, Grand Mufti of Syria April 17-23, 1993
A believer has no conflict with the creator; the creation, however, is conflict, or rather the supreme example of that universal constant, change. There are many such universal values of which I am certain you are aware. For those of us who seek enlightenment, wishing this for our brothers and sisters, be it justice, equality � peace, it is for us to decide in accordance with these universal values, these principles for lack of a better word, what path we follow, what voices we acknowledge, what truths we believe.
One will ultimately discover there is one truth.
In the interim there is the path. The best path, inshAllah (God-Willing), takes the road less traveled: Gandhi took it, Martin took it, Malcolm took it, Mother Teresa took it � Jesus (May God be pleased with him), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and every prophet who came before traveled it well. It is the path of faith. For those who have this world as their end faith is meaningless. For the believer, this world is their beginning, it's betterment their test, their struggle the acts of worship and life which, if you believe, grants one the afterlife or, if one does not believe, grants one the satisfaction of leaving behind the best of examples to live by, the knowledge of a life worthy of emulation.
To your point, Allah does not need our worship. We do. It is a daily affirmation, a reminder to remain steadfast in the face of struggle, to remain true to principles, to live within the rule of law, with standards and ethics as guiding principles and human examples, a few of which I listed above, to show us that it can be done.
I hope there is an afterlife, but I have no time to concern myself with that which is the purview of God. If it is there, outstanding, great, maybe I made it and I wish this for my family, friends and everyone on this forum and beyond; if it is not, just as well, because the life still had meaning in fulfilling the needs of others, giving others a place to stay, sharing a meal � saving a life. The six examples I listed above did all of these things; they will be talked about until the end of this world. They were the best of humanity, divinely influence and inspired, exemplary characters all, influential � worthy.
What was the name of the Sheikh you quoted?
------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: skygazer
Date Posted: 20 October 2005 at 10:15pm
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Yeah, and I've heard and read Christians say the US should nuke Mecca. Just like your bile, it doesn't mean jack. The vast majority of Christians love peace, just like the vast majority of Muslims love peace. You're demented, dude. |
Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 October 2005 at 10:32pm
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Skswsdom and skygazer Let's do something better with our time. |
Posted By: Skswsdom
Date Posted: 21 October 2005 at 9:12pm
O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (Chapter http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=3 - #9 , Verse http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&translator=3#123 - #123 ) Salaamu Alaykum wa Ramadan Mubarak, Thank you. ------------- We have a Destiny to fulfill and not a Fate to suffer ... A Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu wa Bihamdihi |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 21 October 2005 at 10:31pm
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Obviously Howard is an atheist and like all others of various background she has the right to say whatever he feels, but however let me address the court here that when Atheist bring up the: Can God (or for the Christian, Jesus) make a rock so big he can't lift? Wh did God make the planets Spherical and not Triangular? Why is the sun redish orange and not white? Why do we feel pain, heat, cold? Why are the stars transparent? Obviously some of these questions are explainable scientifically but ultimately the metaphysical principles that we encounter in our everyday lives are unexplainable by virtue of their own nature, meaning those objects which we have yet to define. Even objects that are define their origin of purpose is yet unknown because ultimately humans do not know the true nature of God therefore even while explainin our doctrine it should be known to those who inquire our faith to understand the true nature of God being unknown. There is no tongue on earth that can give God the glory he deserves nor can we make correct attributes concerning his nature. Our language limits us therefore we should be careful in discussing these issues. But Glory be to Allah I don't have to partake in this any further LOL |