Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud
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Topic: Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:26pm
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Salaam Alaikum. I originally posted this in the InterFaith section, but for some reason it didn't show, so I will try here. The Quran describes a prophet called Salih, who lived in the Thamud tribe. The Thamud did not worship God, and were disobedient. God sent Salih to warn them, then after they ignored him and murdered a she-camel that God sent, He killed them and left only Salih and those who followed him alive. The story can be found in the following verses. 11:61-68 and 7:73-79 and 15:80-84. The Quran teaches that Salih lived after Hud, and before Shuaib and Moses and other prophets. The Quran makes sure to include that the Thamud would carve out homes in the mountains. 7:73, 74 To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment. "And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth." 15:80-84 And verily, the dwellers of Al-Hijr (the rocky tract) denied the Messengers. And We gave them Our Signs, but they were averse to them. And they used to hew out dwellings from the mountains (feeling themselves) secure. But As-Saihah (torment - awful cry etc.) overtook them in the early morning (of the fourth day of their promised punishment days). And all that which they used to earn availed them not. When Muhammad and his men were passing through the valley where the Thamud used to live, he ordered them to not enter the houses "but weepingly", and they quickly rode through the valley. (5) Ibn Shihab reported, and he had been talking about the stony abodes of thamud, and he said: Salim b. 'Abdullah reported that 'Abdullah b. Umar said: We were passing along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) through the habitations of Hijr, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not enter but weepingly the habitations of these persons who committed tyranny among themselves, lest the same calamity should fall upon you as it fell upon them. He then urged his mount to proceed quickly and pass through that valley hurriedly. (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=042&translator=2&start=0&number=7104 - #042 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=042&translator=2&start=0&number=7104#7104 - #7104 ) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=thamud&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all - http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all Muhammad forbade his men to drink the water from the wells of the people there, and only allowed them to drink from where the she-camel used to drink. (6) Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that the water collected for drinking should be spilt and the flour should be given to the camels and commanded them that the water for drinking should be taken from that well where the she-camel (of Hadrat Salih) used to come. (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=042&translator=2&start=0&number=7105 - #042 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=042&translator=2&start=0&number=7105#7105 - #7105 ) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=thamud&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all - http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all The place is now a UNESCO site, and the pictures of the buildings testify to the accuracy of the Quran's description about the buildings being hewn out from rock.  http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293 - Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih) - UNESCO World Heritage Centre However, the buildings are not homes, they were actually tombs. And what is worse, they were not built by the Thamud but by the Nabateans. They were built not before the time of Moses, but during the first century BC and the 1st century AD. During this time, the Nabateans built structures out of rock throughout their Kingdom. Most of the monuments and inscriptions of the archaeological site of Al-Hijr date from the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE. But the inscriptions in Lihyanite script and some recently discovered archaeological vestiges are evidence for human settlement as early as the 3rd or 2nd century BCE. One-third of the tombs, which are amongst the largest, are clearly dated to between 0-75 CE. The Hedjaz region was integrated into the Roman province of Arabia in 106 CE. A monumental Roman epigraph of 175-177 CE was recently discovered at Al- Hijr. The region then formed part of Roman history, and then Byzantine history, until the 7th century. In 356, the city of Hegra is again mentioned, as being led by a mayor of local origin, but it seems to have been very modest in size at that time. http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293 - Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih) - UNESCO World Heritage Centre 2) The Nabataean city of Hegra or Al-Hijr was formed around a central residential zone and its oasis. The sandstone outcrops at various degrees of proximity offered outstanding possibilities for rock-cut necropoles or spaces, forming a remarkable site for the expression of Nabataean monumental architecture. http://whc.unesco.org/archive/advisory_body_evaluation/1293.pdf - http://whc.unesco.org/archive/adviso...ation/1293.pdf According to the First International Conference for Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries, Al Hijr was settled by the Thamud and other people groups before the Nabateans, but the Nabateans were the only ones who built a city... they carved tombs out of rocks. There have been remains of prehistoric people discovered in some of the mountains as well as petroglyphs. The Lihyanites, Thamud and Minaites left inscriptions... however it was the Nabateans who carved buildings out of rock. They settled in the area around the 1st century BC and built a city.  Al-Hijr lies in northwest Saudi Arabia, between the cities of Medina and Tabuk, 22 kilometres north of the city of al-Ula. Remains of human occupation in the region go back to ancient times. The area has been a significant focus of human settlement over a long period, due to the abundance of factors supporting an early shift to a sedentary way of life. These include fertile land, the presence of sources of water and a strategic position with respect to the great centres of civilization in the ancient Near East. Prehistoric remains have been recorded at the top of some of the mountains which surround the site of Mada�in Salih. Moreover, many rock faces in the area are covered with petroglyphs, some of which are prehistoric. According to several passages in the Qur�an, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC. The Nabataeans probably settled in Mada�in Salih in the first century BC and were politically independent at least until the beginning of the second century AD. They are the only inhabitants of the site who left behind them the remains of a real city. The part of the city in which the people were living was surrounded by various necropolises, which contained monumental rock-cut tombs as well as ordinary pit tombs, while a specific area was devoted to sanctuaries. Water was provided by a dense network of wells. During the Islamic period, al-Hijr was an important stop on the Syrian pilgrimage road. A citadel and a large reservoir were built for the pilgrims� convenience. Finally, at the beginning of the 20th century, a railway station was constructed at Mada�in Salih on the so-called Hejaz railway, which linked Turkey to the city of Madina, also crossing Syria. http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx - First International Conference For Urban Heritage In The Islamic Countries The buildings that Muhammad and his men came across were not built by the Thamud before the time of Moses, but by the Nabateans who built it between the 1st century BC and 1st century AD. * The Quran's claim that the buildings carved out of rock were made by the Thamud during the time of Salih is false. *They were also tombs, not houses as Muhammad and the author of the Quran evidently believed |
Replies:
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 07 August 2013 at 9:49am
| the buildings were made by Thamud,because their historical record is in history of Babylon,king sergon 2 of Babylon defeated them in 8th century BC Nabateans were the descendants of thamud whose capital was Petra in 312 BC in Jordan. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 07 August 2013 at 12:14pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. The Thamud existed as a civilization before the 8th century BC, but they aren't the ones who carved the "homes" at Al Hijir... the Nabataeans were. The Nabataeans carved the buildings at Al Hijr between the 1st century BC and the 2nd century AD, so the sources I have presented show. Why you bring Petra into the discussion I'm not sure, but as you pointed out, it was the capital of the Nabataeans in 312 BC. They built it a few hundred years befpre building the tombs at Al Hijr. Christian, Muslim and Jewish historians differ on when Moses lived, but they agree it was before 1100 BC. The Quran teaches that Salih lived before Moses. The tombs carved out of rock that Muhammad came across in Al Hijr and believed were made by the Thamud during or before the time of Salih (according to the Quran), were carved in fact almost if not more than a millennium later. The author of the Quran, as well as Muhammad, made a historical miscalculation of at least one thousand years. |
NABA wrote:Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 4:37am
| First of all is there any solid proof that nabaeteans created stones???because the writings or carvings of stones are indicating the carvings made of 6th century b.c. even if we take ur logic that nabaeteans created buildings then why they would create scriptures of 6th century B.C??? The author of Quran is almighty Allah which was revealed thru prophet Muhammad S.A.W (pbuh). |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 5:44am
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. Of course the Nabataeans didn't create stones. Neither did the Thamud. Neither did Adam. Only God did. However, the Nabataeans are the ones who carved buildings out of rocks. This has been verified by archaeologists, not only Western ones from UNESCO but also Saudi ones, who dated these buildings. Here is another site set up by both Saudi and Western archaeologists which says the same thing: Mada�in Saleh, not far from al-Ula (22 km), was known as al-Hijr, or Hegra, by the Nabataean people who carved its magnificent tombs into the golden Quweira sandstone outcrops. The delicate details on the entrance portals and the smooth surfaces of its 111 tomb fa�ades reflect the great skills of the masons of their time. The splendor of the natural setting here must have reminded the Nabataeans of their capital, Petra, hewn into the rosey sandstone cliffs to the north in modern-day Jordan. It is no wonder that they chose this very spot to build their second city, Hegra. Based on the many dated tomb inscriptions, Hegra thrived between 1 BCE -74 CE. http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/ It is true that people lived in Al Hijr before the Nabataeans, and they left inscriptions behind them. There are Thamudic, Lihyanite, and Minaic inscriptions on the site. There have also been found human remains and other archaeological evidence. Al-Hijr lies in northwest Saudi Arabia, between the cities of Medina and Tabuk, 22 kilometres north of the city of al-Ula. Remains of human occupation in the region go back to ancient times. The area has been a significant focus of human settlement over a long period, due to the abundance of factors supporting an early shift to a sedentary way of life. These include fertile land, the presence of sources of water and a strategic position with respect to the great centres of civilization in the ancient Near East. Prehistoric remains have been recorded at the top of some of the mountains which surround the site of Mada�in Salih. Moreover, many rock faces in the area are covered with petroglyphs, some of which are prehistoric. According to several passages in the Qur�an, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC. http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx However, the people who carved the tombs and left remains of a city were the Nabataeans. The Nabataeans probably settled in Mada�in Salih in the first century BC and were politically independent at least until the beginning of the second century AD. They are the only inhabitants of the site who left behind them the remains of a real city. The part of the city in which the people were living was surrounded by various necropolises, which contained monumental rock-cut tombs as well as ordinary pit tombs, while a specific area was devoted to sanctuaries. Water was provided by a dense network of wells. http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx The Nabateans evidently carved into rocks which had inscriptions on them left by previous people. You pointed out that the inscriptions were made in the 6th century BC. This would indicate clearly that they couldn't have been made by the Thamud, because Moses lived 500+ years before that. The author of the Quran was very intelligent, and the moral of the story of Salih- to worship God and obey His messenger- is a very good one. However, the author is not Allah, because Allah would have known that the Nabataeans, not the Thamud, were the ones who carved buildings out of rock. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 11:26am
| Thamud tribe was destroyed by Allah by soundwave (rajfa), okay I completely agree that structures we found today are built by nabaetean, but since Allah says that thamud destroyed so nabaeteans created new structures, because if u know the story that unbelievers of thamud asked prophet Saleh (pbuh ) to show the sign of Allah, Allah showed them the sign that a she-camel was produced from mountain, u can c its pics at www.Quranandscience.com.it presents a picture like a palm, area around it doesn't seem that the disaster which was done to thamud people was volcano.so even if nabaeteans created that buildings, there are more chances if reconstruction.Allah is the author of Quran, u can view some of my posts in science and technology. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 2:12pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. Thanks for the site, I checked it out. The pictures do indeed suggest that there was no volcano that destroyed the Thamud. I never suggested such a hypothesis either, of course. I am glad we agree that the structures we see today are built by the Nabataeans, not the Thamud. They were built in between the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD, it seems. The Quran claims that the Thamud carved houses out of rock. God destroyed them, and left their houses desolate, or ruined. They were evidently still desolate when the Quran was written. So those are their houses, desolate* because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know. http://quran.com/27/52 - Surat An-Naml [27:52] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27&verse=52 - The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran * according to Corpus Quran, the word is "ruined". Tafsir Ibn Abbas explains this verse in this way: (See, yonder are their dwellings empty and in ruins because they did wrong) because of their idolatry. (Lo! Herein) in that which We did to them (is indeed a portent) a sign and an admonition (for a people who have knowledge) who believe in that which was done to them. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=27&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Muhammad claimed that the "houses" he saw were those of the Thamud, and told his men to keep away from them. He was obviously looking at the structures in Madain Saleh, the structures which we agree were built by the Nabataeans. The author of the Quran evidently believed that the tombs we can see in Al Hijr that are the work of the Nabataeans, were homes that were carved out by the Thamud, who according to its account, lived at least a milennium before them. Muhammad believed this error, to the point that he told his men that these homes were those of the Thamud, and ordered them to keep away. Allah is the greatest. He is loving, He is all-knowing, He is good. He came down to earth to live among us as Jesus Christ, and died on the cross so that by believing in Him, we could find salvation. The Quran is a book that is filled with lots of wisdom and good advice for humanity, it is also filled with scientific truths that an ordinary person in 7th century Arabia would not know. However, the Quran also contains errors, scientific as well as historical. This proves to me it is not His Word. Allah does not make mistakes. He also would not give Muhammad, or anyone else, false information. He is not a liar. I will be glad to check out your posts in "Science and Technology", thank you for directing me. Regarding this section, I am looking forward to read your response on the thread "Question about 25:53 and 55:19,20" http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25822 If there are any threads in particular that you wrote that you would like me to read and respond to, please list them. May Allah guide us both closer to Him, and may you find salvation in Him. Eid Mubarak wa Allahma3k. |
Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 6:01pm
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I am not young and there was brief time where the village I grew up did not have electricity. It was roughly 10 000 people all up max and there were only two people who had motor bikes. There were four buses depart the village to connect to the outside world, 2 to the south side and 2 to the north side. Sure it was a town instead of a village but to go to the next village barely 8 km away there was an empty gap in between. Well not anymore, that tiny town is choc a block and there is no spaces between villages. Just 40 odd years that's all it took.
That is staggeringly 3000 years ago, yet sometime in the 1888 what part of New york look like, barely passed a century ago: http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/riis_mulberry_bend.jpg?w=600&h=476 - http://theselvedgeyard.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/riis_mulberry_bend.jpg?w=600&h=476 |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 8:18pm
Salaam Alaikum nothing, and thank you for sharing. I'm not sure what this has to do with the Nabataeans and the fact that they carved the buildings out of rock that the Quran and Muhammad mistakenly attributed to the Thamud, but it was interesting and the picture of NYC in the 19th century was fascinating. Allahma3k. Blessed be the Name of the Lord. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 10:17am
| I completely disagree with you when you say that God died.i ask U if God died then who control the world????in Qur'an in ch 112 v 1-4-it is said Allah is one,he is eternal,he is neither born nor begets,there is nothing like him.so we humans can't think about Allah whatever he says we have to follow,moreover Jesus christ(pbuh) says in bible in book of John ch 14 v 28-"My father is greater than I",in book of Mathews ch 12 v 28-"I cast out devils with the help of my lord",so Jesus christ(pbuh) himself says we have to worship one Allah,moreover Allah says in ch 13 v 38 that Allah had send many prophets for particular period of time and place,by name 25 prophets are mentioned in quran,since U have read hadith then U might also b knowing that in all there R 1,24,000 prophets on earth,Allah thru examples wants us to know the danger of shirk and what he had done to those who combine others with Allah,that's y Allah told us the story of thamud because they first ask prophet salih(pbuh) to show sign of Allah when Allah send she-camel to them as a sign they killed her and Allah gave them grieveous punishment,thru this we are being taught a lesson we should not reject Signs of Allah,the last revelation of Allah is quran which is the solution to humanity. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 10:55am
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. I will be glad to respond to your questions responding my Christian beliefs, but perhaps in order to not sidetrack this discussion, could you start a new thread? Maybe on the same subsection of the forum, since it will mean our posts will appear right away.
As a Christian, I believe God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son (Jesus) died on the cross, the Father and Holy Spirit was still alive.
I agree He is one and eternal and there is no one like Him. He does beget though, and He did choose to be born and live among us as Jesus.
Agreed.
True, but Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father. Philippians 2:5-8 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature "#fen-NIV-29398a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29398a - a ] God,did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature "#fen-NIV-29399b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29399b - b ] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death� even death on a cross!
Jesus said to worship the Father, and He worshiped the Father. He was also worshiped several times, and did nothing to discourage people from worshiping Him. If Jesus wasn't God but only a prophet, He would have not allowed people to worship Him. John 9:35-41 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, �Do you believe in the Son of Man?� "#fen-ESV-26464c" - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26464c - c ] 36 He answered, �And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?� 37 Jesus said to him, �You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.� 38 He said, �Lord, I believe,� and he worshiped him. 39 Jesus said, �For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.� 40 Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, �Are we also blind?� 41 Jesus said to them, �If you were blind, you would have no guilt; "#fen-ESV-26470d" - d ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26470d - d ] but now that you say, �We see,� your guilt remains. Matthew 14:22-32 22 Immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go before him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowds. 23 And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24 but the boat by this time was a long way "#fen-ESV-23621b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2014&version=ESV#fen-ESV-23621b - b ] from the land, "#fen-ESV-23621c" - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2014&version=ESV#fen-ESV-23621c - c ] beaten by the waves, for the wind was against them. 25 And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. 26 But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, �It is a ghost!� and they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, �Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.� 28 And Peter answered him, �Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.� 29 He said, �Come.� So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, "#fen-ESV-23627d" - d ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2014&version=ESV#fen-ESV-23627d - d ] he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, �Lord, save me.� 31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, �O you of little faith, why did you doubt?� 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, �Truly you are the Son of God.� When Jesus`disciple Peter was worshiped by Cornelius, he immediately ordered him to stop. Unlike Jesus, Peter was no more than a man. Acts 2:25-26 24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, �Stand up; I too am a man.�
Yes, the Quran and hadiths do teach that.
The point of the story of the Thamud and Salih is one I understand- to not commit shirk and to worship only God. I definitely agree with this, and in the Old Testament, there are also examples of God killing people for not worshiping Him but instead turning to false gods. This is a very clear and beneficial lesson for humanity. I have no problems at all with it. However... what I am pointing out, is that the Quran, in its story of Salih and the Thamud, makes a very obvious historical mistake. There is no way to get around it. According to the Quran, the Thamud lived at Al Hijr before the time of Moses, and carved homes out of rocks. Their homes were left desolate and according to Bukhari, Muhammad came across them later with his soldiers and told them to not enter them because of the fate of their previous owners. The fact is that these buildings were not anyone`s homes, but tombs. And, as you yourself admitted, they were carved out of rock by the Nabataeans... who built them more than 1,000 years after Moses led the Banu Israil out of Egypt. There is an obvious historical error in the Quran and hadiths in this regard. Therefore, the author of the Quran could not have been God, and God could not have been guiding Muhammad. I say this because God does not make errors. Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name. |
Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 4:13pm
I don't do hadith but you are using hadith to prove the case. I hope you are willing to shed some light of this hadith. In the google map I checked the distance from Medina to the Madain Saleh is 361 km. The question is what the Prophet was doing there? Did he go there to prove the point? Remember we are talking about 361 km here, and I am a walker - for my exercise that is, I've been doing it for many years. With joggers on nice road, faster than normal walk I can do about 7 kh, but I only do 6kh mostly. Just for remainder, the Jews and the Arabs, and most people in the past had the habit of exaggeration. The Bible has few of that and the hadith is her little sister. So what he was doing there anyway? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 4:41pm
Salaam Alaikum, nothing. You wrote "I don't do hadith". Are you a Quran-only Muslim, and reject them? According to the hadith being discussed, Muhammad and his men were traveling in that area. I don't know why they were there. You are right, it would have been quite the distance from Mecca. I used the hadiths, because most Muslims I know accept them to be an important part of the faith, since they are Muhammad's teachings and he was allegedly a prophet of God. If you want to discount the hadith though, sure, we can do that. 27:52 describes the houses of the Thamud as being "desolate". The present tense verb "are" is used to describe them, whereas all of the other verbs in the story that describe what happened are past tense. 27:45-53 And We had certainly sent to Thamud their brother Salih, [saying], "Worship Allah ," and at once they were two parties conflicting. He said, "O my people, why are you impatient for evil instead of good? Why do you not seek forgiveness of Allah that you may receive mercy?" They said, "We consider you a bad omen, you and those with you." He said, "Your omen is with Allah . Rather, you are a people being tested." And there were in the city nine family heads causing corruption in the land and not amending [its affairs]. They said, "Take a mutual oath by Allah that we will kill him by night, he and his family. Then we will say to his executor, 'We did not witness the destruction of his family, and indeed, we are truthful.' " And they planned a plan, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not. Then look how was the outcome of their plan - that We destroyed them and their people, all. So those are their houses, desolate because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know. And We saved those who believed and used to fear Allah . Elsewhere in the Quran, it is stated that the Thamud carved their homes out of rocks. These homes were evidently, according to the Quran, still standing when it was revealed to Muhammad. The fact remains though that in Al Hijr, the only buildings that are around that were carved out of rock, were those of the Nabataeans. The Quran is still in error here. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 1:20pm
| I m giving an example to u I live in Bhopal in my house in 2013, hundred years after that I will not b there and may b new generation will create new houses and few yrs after that scientists will discover that new generatios only created the buildings but does it nullify the fact that I live in the house?? I want to tell u that yes nabaeteans may create those structures but there is a possibility that nabaeteans may have replaced those structures with theirs.Allah alone knows the truth but since it is mentionedin Quran i will believe in it as a muslim.I can't understand u agree that Allah is one and then u say Allah is trinity, I want to ask u what is the meaning of begotten according to u??? Since u agree that Allah is eternal then how could u say that he died, because eternal means free from diseases.the quotes u presented from bible nothing mentions that jesus christ (pbuh) claimed divinity.in fact if u believe Allah is one then u should also believe that Allah clearly forbids concept of trinity of God in surah an nisa ch 4 v 171 in quran, Allah doesn't need to take any form to solve problem of mankind, Allah says in surah al anam ch 6 v 8-they say y Allah doesn't send Angels as messengers for mankind Allah said if Allah had send angels as messengers to earth the unbelievers would b dazzled by their light.so Allah always send human beings as prophets for human beings on earth so that human beings could learn from life of prophets and implement them in their lives. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 3:56pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.
This is a great example, let's follow it. If the house you lived in still stood there after 100 years and someone points to it and says "NABA used to live in that house", that would be true. If however someone destroyed your house or it collapsed and someone built a new one on top of it, it would be incorrect to point to that new building and say "NABA used to live in that house". Now let's say that your house was a small one made of wood, and the people after you built a skyscraper 100 years in the future. It would be very much false to point to the skyscraper and say "NABA used to live in that house". Now let's examine the evidence from the Quran. It states that the Thamud not only used to live in Al Hijr, but they carved houses out of stone. Historical evidence shows us that yes, the Thamud did indeed live in Al Hijr. They left some artifacts and a few inscriptions. However, the buildings that were carved out of rock... they were not carved out by the Thamud, but by the Nabataeans. In fact, the Nabataeans carved buildings out of rock not only in Al Hijr, but also Petra. Carving buildings out of rocks was something that the Nabateans were known for, not other civilizations in that area.
How could the Nabateans have replaced rock carved tombs with those of their own? Dating by archaeologists- Western as well as Saudi, shows us that the tombs were carved between the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD. One of the archaeologists stating this is Majeed Khan, who not only has a Ph. D in archaeology, but has been associated with the Saudi Antiquities Department for 35 years. The First International Conference for Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries also backs this up. The buildings described both in the Quran and by Muhammad as "homes" of the Thamud that they allegedly carved out of rock, were made by the Nabataeans.
Allah alone does know the truth. I realize that as a Muslim you choose to believe in the Quran. However, on the topic of the Thamud and Al Hijr, the Quran is mistaken. Muhammad was also mistaken as to who built the houses he and his men were passing by. Allah is perfect and does not make mistakes, therefore He cannot have been the author of the Quran.
Trinity means that God exists as three persons. He exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is something that would be impossible for us to accomplish or be, but for God everything is possible. Both the Bible and Quran say that God is everywhere. He can hear us whenever we pray to Him, and can speak to as many people as He wants. Does that mean that there are many Allahs, since neither of us are capable of listening to billions of people simultaneously and talking to several people at once? Or is He beyond our limitations, and just because something is impossible for us does not mean it is impossible for Him?
Begotten, when used in the Bible to describe Jesus, would mean that He is unique, like no one else. So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning in http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.17 - Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son" (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context. The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%203.16 - John 3:16 (see also http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%201.14 - John 1:14 , http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%201.18 - 18 ; http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%203.18 - 3:18 ; http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20John%204.9 - 1 John 4:9 ). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God ( http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%2020.31 - John 20:31 ), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son�sharing the same divine nature as God�as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption ( http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ephesians%201.5 - Ephesians 1:5 ). Jesus is God�s �one and only� Son. Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html#ixzz2bboKVqkn - http://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html#ixzz2bboKVqkn
Eternal means that one always exists and always existed and always will exist. Allah exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Allah the Son (Jesus) died temporarily, but Allah the Father and Allah the Holy Spirit did not die. Allah died in one way, but in another also remained alive. Again, this would be something completely impossible for us to do. But for Him, everything is possible.
No, but they show us that He was worshiped. If He was not claiming divinity, would not He have told the people who were worshiping to stop? I will give you more examples from the Bible, where Jesus claimed divinity. If you allow me, I am going to plagiarize something I myself wrote on Christian Forums. Jesus said: - That those who have seen Him have seen the Father John 14:7-10 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26664d - d ] From now on you do know him and have seen him.� 8 Philip said to him, �Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.� 9 Jesus said to him, �Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, �Show us the Father�? - That He and the Father are one John 10:29-30 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26499a - a ] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.� - That He will judge the world Matthew 25:31-49 31 �When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, �Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.� 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, �Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?� 40 And the King will answer them, �Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2025:31-49&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24045a - a ] you did it to me.� 41 �Then he will say to those on his left, �Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.� 44 Then they also will answer, saying, �Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?� 45 Then he will answer them, saying, �Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.� 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.� Jesus commanded people to baptize others in the name of the Father, Himself, and the Holy Spirit. This points to the fact that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one God. Matthew 28:18-20 18 And Jesus came and said to them, �All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2028&version=ESV#fen-ESV-24211b - b ] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.� - Several times in all of the Gospels, Jesus was worshiped by people. He never told them to stop worshiping Him. There are numerous examples of this, one would be in Matthew 28:17 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted http://www.christianforums.com/t7670841-8/#post60974335 Did Muhammad ever say he and Allah are one? Did he say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Did he say he is going to judge the world, and decide who will go to heaven and who will go to hell? Was he ever worshiped? Was any other prophet, either in the Quran or Old Testament? Who but God can be one with God? Who but God looks like God? Who but God will judge the world? Who but God can accept worship? The Bible clearly states that Jesus said He is God.
How does 4:171 forbid the concept of the Trinity? Please explain.
Of course He doesn't. He chose to do so. I am sure Allah doesn't need a throne to sit on, but we both believe He sits on a throne. Just because He doesn't need to do something, does not mean He doesn't do it.
We agree that He sent human beings as prophets, until He came down personally in the form of Jesus. The Quran rightly points out that Allah sent prophets. However, some of its stories regarding the prophets are simply not true. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 11 August 2013 at 7:27am
| Surah An Nisa ch 4 v 171-Allah strictly forbids trinity and he says don't commit excessiveness in religion and believe that Allah is one,I have read the article of majid khan in pasthorizons.com he never mentioned about nabaeteans,in fact he said it is difficult to interpret the signs.Jesus christ(pbuh)condemns divinity in book of John ch 19 v 16-17. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 11 August 2013 at 2:30pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. I went on pasthorizons.com and read his article. For those who are interested, it can be read on this url: http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2011/art-rocks-in-saudi-arabia As you will notice, the article is not written about buildings or houses or tombs, but about rock art- petroglyphs. The photos and article describes pictures of animals that were carved into the rocks, as well as inscriptions. The oldest artifacts found were of the Thamud... and what were they? They were were inscriptions carved into the rock as well as carvings of camels. If you visit the site, you will see various photos of the findings. None of them are of the tombs at Al Hijr or Petra. Majeed Khan did not mention the Nabateans in his article, because he was not writing about the buildings carved into rocks at Al Hijr and Petra but about inscriptions and pictures of animals carved into the rocks. On the other site I listed (http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/), he and the other authors explicitly stated that Madain Saleh, or Al Hijr, was built by the Nabataeans... not the Thamud. There is absolutely nothing mentioned in his article about the Thamud carving homes out of rocks, like the Quran alleges, homes which Muhammad claimed he saw and told his men to not enter. Regarding 4:171, I have yet to see how it explains the Trinity: O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. Why should Christians not say "three"? Even one of your prophets said "three". But they hamstrung her, so he said, "Enjoy yourselves in your homes for three days. That is a promise not to be denied." If saying "three" means that one is saying the Trinity is true, it would mean that Salih was also a Trinitarian. Using 4:171 to attack or for that matter even describe the Trinity makes no sense, unless you explain what the author meant by writing "three". John 19:16,17 does not say anything about Jesus denying His divinity. It describes Him being crucified. John 19:16,17 So he delivered him over to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus, 17 and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha Have you actually read the Bible? It's a good idea to do that before telling a Christian what is written in it. I have taken the time to read the entire Quran, and while I do not know it as well as you do, I will at least read passages before telling you what I believe they say. I recommend reading the Bible. It contains God's message for humanity. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 12 August 2013 at 7:33am
| I apologize by mistake i quote that in section of John,it was from Mathews.actually i have group of friends who are christians and we exchange the verses of Qur'an n bible between us.extremely sorry for doing this.in fact i request U to teach what's there in your scriptures.the topic U started nobody can actually prove what was the exact truth,because that place was destroyed and there R chances of complete new civilisation here.since i m a Muslim i believe what Allah says.in that verse(ch 4 v 171)Allah is warning those who believe in concept of trinity of God.in fact Allah clearly says in Surah Al Maidah ch 5 v 72-they are doing a sin those who regard Jesus(pbuh) as God.i m reading Bible but i m not perfect in quoting verses from them,please pardon me from that. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 12 August 2013 at 8:22am
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. There is no need to be extremely sorry. We all make mistakes, the only One who doesn't is Allah, our Creator and Saviour and Guide. I have made mistakes and wrong assumptions about the Quran and hadiths, just ask islamispeace  . We learn by making mistakes. When we make one, we admit it, and move on. I'm certainly not annoyed or angry with you, or think lesser of you because you made a mistake. We are all human.Regarding Matthew 19:16,17; in it Jesus does not deny He is God. He was asked about what food deeds must be done to have eternal life, He responded by saying there is only one who is good, and telling the man to keep the commandments and then follow Him. Sadly, the man was more attached to his riches, and chose not to follow Christ. This is one of my favourite passages, especially verses 29 and 30 when Jesus talks about those who leave things behind to follow Him, being rewarded in the next life. It is a beautiful passage, and certainly does not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. Matthew 19:16-30 16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, �Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?� 17 And he said to him, �Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.� 18 He said to him, �Which ones?� And Jesus said, �You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 20 The young man said to him, �All these I have kept. What do I still lack?� 21 Jesus said to him, �If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.� 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. 23 And Jesus said to his disciples, �Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.� 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, �Who then can be saved?� 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, �With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.� 27 Then Peter said in reply, �See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?� 28 Jesus said to them, �Truly, I say to you, in the new world, "#fen-ESV-23788b" - b ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=ESV#fen-ESV-23788b - b ] when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold "#fen-ESV-23789c" - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=ESV#fen-ESV-23789c - c ] and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. I don't understand how 4:171 mentions the Trinity by saying "three". Many people say "three", including Salih. 5:72 accurately describes what Christians believe, that Jesus is God, even if it mistakenly condemns us for believing this truth. Do you know what 5:73 is about? The tafsir commentators wrote that this verse is about the Trinity, and I have heard other Muslims say this. Is this true? Regarding the topic I originally started, as I have demonstrated, history shows us that the buildings that are mentioned in the Quran at Al Hijr, as well as those that Muhammad and his men passed by, were not built by the Thamud, but by the Nabataeans. The Thamud left inscriptions and carvings of camels. The Nabataeans left tombs... which the Quran's author mistakenly described as houses and attributed them to being the creation of someone else. I don't mean to be offensive, but to continue to believe the Quran's account and Muhammad's hadiths, it is necessary to accept something that is not true. Allah Akhbar! |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 13 August 2013 at 7:35am
| ch 5 v 73 is about trinity,Allah says those who say this R d contenders of punishment,there is clear message in that verse that there is no god but Allah.moreover I still believe that structures were made by thamud because they were destroyed by calamity and after that structures were made by nabaeteans. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 13 August 2013 at 11:58pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. Here is the verse: They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. The Trinity doctrine does not teach that God is the third of three. The Trinity doctrine teaches that one God exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We believe the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Not three different gods, but one God. We do not believe God is the third of three. We believe He is one, and exists as three persons. You can say He is three of three, which would equal one. But not "the third of three".
If the structures made by the Thamud were destroyed by calamity and after that new structures were built by the Nabataeans, the Quran and Muhammad were wrong in referring to Nabataean structures as the homes of the Thamud. The mistake still remains. God is great and loving and wise. He died on the cross for you as Jesus Christ, the Son. He offers you and everyone else on the planet eternal life if you believe in Him. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 14 August 2013 at 7:25am
|
Allah knows everything it was will of Allah that he narrated story of Thamud to teach us the lesson,because The people of Thamud were so cruel that they slaughtered the sign of Allah I.e the she camel and Allah destroyed them this is the lesson that we get that we should not reject signs of Allah,moreover when U say God dies U R committing a big mistake because God is eternal he is free from all diseases,in fact Allah never sleeps(ch 2 v 255 of Al Qur'an)moreover he is one,he doesn't need to take any form to improve mankind,this life is not eternal,not beautiful,U know that there R so many problems around the world,Allah created life n death to test us(ch 67 v 2),Allah regards life as play and amusement in ch 6 v 32.Allah is one and we should not ascribe humanly adjectives to Allah. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 14 August 2013 at 11:03am
Indeed, He does.
That is a good lesson and a well-told story, but unfortunately, the story is not true. The Thamud did not carve buildings out of rock at Al Hijr. The Nabataeans did. The author of the Quran, as well as Muhammad, made a mistake in that regard. This is one of the proofs that the Quran was not written by God, and that God did not inspire Muhammad.
As I showed, God the Son was dead and God the Father and Holy Spirit was not. Even when He was dead, Jesus was in the earth and speaking to the spirits of the deceased. So God is eternal- the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
He is, but He chose to expose Himself to hardships for us.
Christians also believe God is one.
He doesn't need to, but He chose to.
Yes. In Matthew 25:31-49, Allah tells His followers that what they do in response to the suffering and oppressed, they do for Him.
Yes.
Except those that He ascribed to Himself. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 15 August 2013 at 7:23am
| If U pose question on Quran can U clear this query to me regarding bible,in book of genesis ch 1 v 3 n 5-it is said that light was created on first day but in verses 14-19-sun n moon were created on fourth day,how it is possible that cause of light comes after light??,moreover brother I will stick to my point that thamud carve the buildings because there R 100% chances that since Allah destroyed their civilization it was replaced by new one,n y U believe in certain researches,because many years back it was believed that moon has its own light but few 200 years back it was discovered that moon reflects the light of sun but Allah mentioned this fact 1400 years ago in Qur'an in ch 25 v 61,and regarding hardships,as I said there is no word hard for Allah,Allah in ch 85 v 16 says Allah do what he intends.u can't judge Allah,there is nothing like him(ch 112 v 4),u just had to have full faith in him and he give u results. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 15 August 2013 at 6:14pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. Hope your day is going well.
Do you have a lamp at home? Are you able to turn it on during the night, when there is no sun and when there is no moon? What about a candle? If you light it in the darkness, will you not get light? If people are capable of making light without the sun and the moon, do you think God couldn't?
As historical facts show, the buildings carved out of rock that the Quran describes and that Muhammad and his men came across, were not built b the Thamud before Moses, but by the Nabataeans around the 1st century.
Because they are qualified archaeologists who have been doing this their whole lives, and they also include Muslims, like Majeed Khan.
25:61 doesn't say that the moon reflects the light of the sun. 25:61 Blessed is He Who made the constellations in the heavens and made therein a lamp and a shining moon. The word "reflection" is not listed anywhere. The tafsirs of this verse also do not mention reflection. Also, even if we want to make the assumption that the Quran does state that the moon's light is reflected from the sun, it would not have been anything new. Anaxagoras, an ancient Greek astronomer and philisopher who was a pagan, noticed that the moon reflects the light of the sun. An early Christian church leader, Hippolytus, described his theory. And that beneath the stars are sun and moon, and certain invisible bodies that are carried along with us; and that we have no perception of the heat of the stars, both on account of their being so far away, and on account of their distance from the earth; and further, they are not to the same degree hot as the sun, on account of their occupying a colder situation. And that the moon, being lower than the sun, is nearer us. And that the sun surpasses the Peloponnesus in size. And that the moon has not light of its own, but from the sun. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus1.html I don't know how the author of the Quran knew that the moon is illuminated by the sun, if in fact he knew that. I know that long before the 7th century, it was already known to some people. Of course, Anaxagoras made mistakes in some of his theories and beliefs... just as there are some scientific mistakes also in the Quran and hadiths. Feel free to comment more on the error about the barrier between seas that I wrote about on this thread http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25822 and about Muhammad's mistake about the tailbone that I discussed on the thread below, the last post. http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25822 These are not the only scientific mistakes in the Quran and hadiths, but they are enough for now.
The Bible agrees. Allah did intend to die on the cross, no one forced Him to.
Ameen to that. And it is because I have faith in Allah, I believe in what the Bible states and not what is in the Quran or the hadiths. I respect the Quran and I respect Muhammad. However, the text in the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad are clearly not from God, since God does not make mistakes. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 16 August 2013 at 7:18am
| if U have read Qur'an U might come across with this verse ch 11 v 68-Allah says that he had destroyed Thamud community in such a way that as if they had never dwelled or flourished there.this verse clearly suggests the high possiblity that there was not even an atom left of thamud community,means there R high chances of new civilization. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 16 August 2013 at 1:47pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. If according to the Quran the Thamud community was destroyed in such a way that not even an atom remained, then in addition to being historically incorrect, it is also contradictory. This verse 27:52 So those are their houses, desolate because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know. And We saved those who believed and used to fear Allah . means that the houses of the Thamud remained, houses that they allegedly carved out of rock that Muhammad saw at Madain Saleh, still remained. Of course, as we know already, those houses were carved by the Nabataeans. That is a historical error in the Quran and hadiths. If 11:68 is saying that God destroyed every atom of the Thamud, then it would mean that 27:52 and 11:68 contradict. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 17 August 2013 at 7:21am
| the word desolate means devasted,uninhabited means as if nothing existed there,U yourself contraindicating yourself,Allah says in next verse this is the sign for the people to come. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 17 August 2013 at 8:17am
I thought so also, notice that in my last post I wrote "if"... If according to the Quran the Thamud community was destroyed in such a way that not even an atom remained, then in addition to being historically incorrect, it is also contradictory. This verse 27:52 So those are their houses, desolate because of the wrong they had done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know. And We saved those who believed and used to fear Allah . means that the houses of the Thamud remained, houses that they allegedly carved out of rock that Muhammad saw at Madain Saleh, still remained. Of course, as we know already, those houses were carved by the Nabataeans. That is a historical error in the Quran and hadiths. If 11:68 is saying that God destroyed every atom of the Thamud, then it would mean that 27:52 and 11:68 contradict. I did not say the Quran claims that every last trace of the Thamud was destroyed, as you pointed out (and as I pointed out before you), the Quran claims their houses- the ones they allegedly carved into rock- remained. Of course, the buildings that are carved into rock at Madain Saleh were made by the Nabataeans, not the Thamud. So the Quran does not contradict itself on this, but instead, makes a historical error. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 18 August 2013 at 7:01am
| of the houses,desolate means house carved by thamud people were destroyed means no signs left of them,means they were existed and destroyed and few years after nabaeateans may build it,I don't know,Allah only knows. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 August 2013 at 10:52am
|
Greetings TG, On another forum someone made the statement: "How about this, go find another "error or contradiction in the quran". If you think there is one, there must be more than, its only rational. If one makes a simple mistake, then for sure there are others."I shared the link to this discussion. This is their refutation. What response you would give? Here is the supposed 'contradiction' ?Thanks, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 18 August 2013 at 1:17pm
Salaam Alaikum. If the houses carved by the Thamud were destroyed and there were no signs left of them, why did Muhammad tell his men not to enter them? How could they have entered something that was no longer there? And why does the Quran refer to them in the present tense? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 18 August 2013 at 3:17pm
Hello, Caringheart! Long time no talk.
LOL these are my words, right? And the following below is the refutation? I will gladly address it.
7:73, 74 To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment. "And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth." In 7:74, Salih is addressing the Thamud, telling them how God made them the inheritors after the Ad people and gave them habitations in the land, and "you" (a reference to the Thamud) build for themselves castles and palaces and carve out homes in the mountains. Tafsirs Ibn Abbas, Al Jalalayn and Ibn Qathir all state 7:74 applies to the Thamud. I won't copy and paste them, but they (and the tafsirs of all the verses) can be found on www.altafsir.com and www.qtafsir.com
The verse makes it clear that the Thamud carved the homes out of rock. The tafsirs do also.
It doesn't, but 7:74 does.
7:74 states very clearly that the Thamud were the ones who built the homes out of rock. Also, so does 15:80-84 And certainly did the companions of Thamud deny the messengers. And We gave them Our signs, but from them they were turning away. And they used to carve from the mountains, houses, feeling secure. But the shriek seized them at early morning. So nothing availed them [from] what they used to earn. If you read any tafsir, you will notice that this was also meant as a reference to the Thamud. So we have 2 verses where it is clearly stated that the Thamud carved their houses out of mountains.
According to the verses we have examined, the Thamud carved their homes out of mountains before Salih warned them and they killed the She-Camel, and were as a result annihilated. Now, let's see when Salih lived. Although the Quran does not give us specific dates (neither does the Bible), it does tell us some important chronological information. We know that according to the Quran, there was a prophet called Shuaib, who was sent to the Midianites. His story can be found in 11:84-95. His people were disobeying God, and he warned them by saying: 11:89 And O my people, let not [your] dissension from me cause you to be struck by that similar to what struck the people of Noah or the people of Hud or the people of Salih. And the people of Lot are not from you far away. So we know that Shuaib lived after the destruction of the Thamud, since he referred to their punishment in the past tense. Chapter 11 in the Quran provides a chronological list of some of the prophets between Noah and Moses. 11:25-50 tells the story of Noah and his people. 11:51-60 tells the story of Hud and the Ad. 11:61-68 tells the story of Salih and the Thamud. 11:69-83 tells the story of Abraham and Lot and their people. 11:84-95 tells the story of Shuayb and the Midianites. 11:96-99 tells the story of Moses and the Pharaoh. 9:70 also provides a chronological list of some of the peoples who didn't listen to their prophets. 9:70 Hath not the story reached them of those before them?- the People of Noah, and 'Ad, and Thamud; the People of Abraham, the men of Midian, and the cities overthrown. To them came their messengers with clear signs. It is not Allah Who wrongs them, but they wrong their own souls. Notice that they are listed in the same order as in chapter 11. First the people of Noah, then the Ad, then the Thamud, then the people of Abraham, then the Midianites. Another example of that we can see below: 22:42-44 If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the peoples before them (with their prophets),- the People of Noah, and 'Ad and Thamud Those of Abraham and Lut; And the Companions of the Madyan People; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was my rejection (of them)! Notice the order the events and prophets are listed in. If you were to read Lives of the Prophets by Ibn Qathir, you will see that the prophets are listed in chronological order, and that Shuayb is before Moses, and after Salih and Hud. http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Stories%20Of%20The%20Prophets%20By%20Ibn%20Kathir.pdf In reference to the book from a Muslim publisher: Description from the publisher: In this book, the stories of the prophets have been compiled from 'Al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah' (The Beginning and the End) which is a great work of the famous Muslim exegete and historian Ibn Kathir and has a prominent place in the Islamic literature. The stories of the prophets and all the events in their lives have been supported by the Qur'anic Verses and the Sunnah (traditions) of the Prophet (S). Wherever it was necessary, other sources have also been reported for the sake of historical accounts, but on such places a comparative study has been made to prove the authenticity of the sources. Ibn Kathir has reproduced the views and interpretations of all the great exegetes of the Qur'an of his time. The systemic narratives of the Stories of the Prophets have been written in chronological order which renders a historical style to the book. http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b2632.html So it is clear that according to the Quran, as well as commentators like Ibn Qathir, the Thamud lived before Moses. Other Muslim sites that provide a chronological order of the prophets also list Moses as having lived after Shuaib. http://www.iqra.net/articles/muslims/prophets.php Finally, if Ibn Qathir's book and the other verses are not enough, here is definite proof that the Thamud lived before Moses. 40:27-35 Musa (Moses) said: "Verily I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord from every arrogant who believes not in the Day of Reckoning! And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and he has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will befall on you." Verily, Allah guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar! "O my people! Yours is the kingdom today, you being dominant in the land. But who will save us from the Torment of Allah, should it befall us?" Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "I show you only that which I see (correct), and I guide you only to the path of right policy!" And he who believed said: "O my people! Verily, I fear for you a fate like that day (of disaster) of the Confederates (of old)! "Like the fate of the people of Nuh (Noah), and 'Ad, and Thamud and those who came after them. And Allah wills no injustice for (His) slaves. "And, O my people! Verily, I fear for you the Day when there will be mutual calling (between the people of Hell and of Paradise)." A Day when you will turn your backs and flee having no protector from Allah. And whomsoever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide. And indeed Yusuf (Joseph) did come to you, in times gone by, with clear signs, but you ceased not to doubt in that which he did bring to you: till when he died you said: "No Messenger will Allah send after him." Thus Allah leaves astray him who is a Musrif (a polytheist, an oppressor, a criminal, sinner who commit great sins) and a Murtab (one who doubts Allah's Warning and His Oneness). Those who dispute about the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, without any authority that has come to them, it is greatly hateful and disgusting to Allah and to those who believe. Thus does Allah seal up the heart of every arrogant, tyrant. (So they cannot guide themselves to the Right Path). This man gave a speech to Pharaoh, and he was describing the Thamud and what happened to them. We know that Moses lives around 1200 BC. This means that the Thamud would have lived before then. So we have a chronological order in place. According to the Quran, the Thamud lived before Moses.
I didn't say there was a contradiction, I said there is a historical error. The Quran doesn't mention the term "Nabataeans", but it mistakenly attributes the buildings built by them to the Thamud. As I have pointed out already, the buildings at Al Hijr were built by the Nabateans, who build them during the first century AD and a few decades before this. The events described in the Quran took place at least a milennium before this. Ironically, although the Quran is extremely clear that the homes were built by the Thamud, if the person wants to argue they were built by the Ad, that would be even worse, since they lived before Salih!
Anytime, sister. Could you please send me a link to this forum and discussion? Thanks so much! God bless you. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 19 August 2013 at 7:08am
| walecum As Salaam,prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said do not enter the dwelling places of those on whom wrath of Allah has fallen upon,see the dwelling place not the scriptures,in other words prophet said don't enter the land,structures are the secondary things. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 19 August 2013 at 7:46am
Wa Alaikum Salaam to you also, NABA. The word I read in the hadiths on www.searchtruth.com are "habitations". Muhammad used them when he was talking about "the stony abodes of the Thamud". (5) Ibn Shihab reported, and he had been talking about the stony abodes of thamud, and he said: Salim b. 'Abdullah reported that 'Abdullah b. Umar said: We were passing along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) through the habitations of Hijr, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not enter but weepingly the habitations of these persons who committed tyranny among themselves, lest the same calamity should fall upon you as it fell upon them. He then urged his mount to proceed quickly and pass through that valley hurriedly. (Book http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=042&translator=2&start=0&number=7104 - #042 , Hadith http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=042&translator=2&start=0&number=7104#7104 - #7104 ) http://searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=thamud&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all hab�i�ta�tion[hab-i-tey-shuhn] Show IPA noun
1. a place of residence; dwelling; abode. 2. the act of inhabiting; occupancy by inhabitants. 3. a http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/colony - colony or settlement; http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/community - community : Each of the scattered habitations consisted of a small number of huts. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/habitation res�i�dence[rez-i-duhns] Show IPA1. the place, especially the house, in http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/which - which a person lives or http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reside - resides ; dwelling place; home: Their residence is in New York City. 2. a structure serving as a dwelling or home, especially one of large proportion and superior quality: They have a summer residence in Connecticut. 3. the act or fact of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reside - residing : during his residence in Spain. 4. the act of living or staying in a specified place while performing official duties, carrying on studies or research, awaiting a divorce, etc. 5. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/residence?s=tthe time during which a person http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reside - resides in a place: a residence there of five years. If you prefer to use the word "dwelling", why not. dwell�ing[dwel-ing] Show IPA noun a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dwelling?s=t So Muhammad was referring to the "houses" built by the Thamud... which were in fact actually tombs that were built by the Nabataeans. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 20 August 2013 at 7:24am
| can U give me the link of those archaeologists who said that the buildings were made by nabaeteans please?? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 20 August 2013 at 7:59am
Of course, my friend. http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/ http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293 Salaam. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 21 August 2013 at 7:30am
| I visited the site Saudi archaeology.com.u never mentioned about dedanites and lythianites.it is mentioned there,Nabaeteans chose hegra before them the predesseccors were dedanites and lythanites.Quran refers to thamudic people earlier than them.they have not counted any error from Quran,no Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn't believe in what Allah says. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 21 August 2013 at 9:36am
Salaam Alaikum. There were people who lived in al Hijr before the Nabataeans. They included the Thamud, Lihyanites and Dedanites. However, the Nabataeans were the ones who carved the buildings at al Hijr. Mada�in Saleh, not far from al-Ula (22 km), was known as al-Hijr, or Hegra, by the Nabataean people who carved its magnificent tombs into the golden Quweira sandstone outcrops. The delicate details on the entrance portals and the smooth surfaces of its 111 tomb fa�ades reflect the great skills of the masons of their time. The splendor of the natural setting here must have reminded the Nabataeans of their capital, Petra, hewn into the rosey sandstone cliffs to the north in modern-day Jordan. It is no wonder that they chose this very spot to build their second city, Hegra. Based on the many dated tomb inscriptions, Hegra thrived between 1 BCE -74 CE. http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/ The Quran is correct in its statement that the Thamud lived at Al Hijr. It is mistaken when it claims that the Thamud carved buildings out of rock. They didn't. The Nabataeans did. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 22 August 2013 at 7:16am
| but nobody in that article contraindicate Qur'an,its ur assumption,definitely yes people say that structures might b created by nabaeteans but they are not going against Qur'an. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 August 2013 at 7:57am
They don't say "the Quran is wrong", but their findings clearly show it to be so. The Quran and hadiths claim that the buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr were built by the Thamud. Archaeology shows they were built by the Nabataeans. the Quran claims that these buildings were built before the time of Moses. Archaeology shows they were built between the 2nd century BC and the 2nd century AD. In their description of the Thamud, the Quran and Muhammad made an obvious error. Could God have made such a mistake in His holy book? |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 7:22am
| so u have admitted that Qur'an is not wrong.Allah can't do wrong nor lie(ch 20 v 52).so u R talking about that findings say so,Allah clearly mentions that the way he destroyed Thamud in such a way that they never existed in ch 11 v 68,I also told u that majid khan said that they cannot interpret,moreover they say Qur'an said the buildings were made by Thamud,moreover if u consider bible as a word of God,can u explain the verse of gospel of mark ch 16 v 17-18,which mentions about the test for TRUE christian believer and can u do that???Allahfiz. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 23 August 2013 at 3:22pm
Salaam Alaikum, NABA.
I said no such thing. Show me evidence that I said that the Quran is not wrong.
Correct. This is how I know He didn't write the Quran.
The Quran's author stated that Allah destroyed the Thamud, but he also wrote that He left their houses standing. The Quran states: "these are their houses, desolate because of the wrong they have done. Indeed in that is a sign for people who know" (27:52)
Majeed Khan said he can't date the words and animals carved into rocks, also known as "rock art", not that they can't interpret the date of the carving of the buildings in Madain Saleh. The website he coauthors clearly states that the Nabataeans are the ones who carved buildings into Madain Saleh. It is written there very clearly.
Yes, according to the Quran, these buildings were made by the Thamud before Moses. In reality, they were made by the Nabataeans about a century before the coming of Jesus.
Mark 16:9-20 is recognized by most Christians to be an addition, and was not in the original text to begin with. Even so, most of the things described there were done by early Christians. Paul was bitten by a snake and not harmed when their ship wrecked in Malta (Acts 28:3). Acts 2:13 describes the disciples speaking in tongues. Acts 5:16 describes Peter healing the sick and casting out demons. There is no record of the disciples drinking poison and surviving but again, Mark 16:17,18 is believed to have been an addition. Now a question for you... while Mark 16:17,18 is an addition, the following hadiths are considered to be authentic for Muslims: Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663:
Volume 7, Book 71, Number 664: Narrated Saud: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates
in the morning, neither magic nor poison will hurt him that day." Sahih Muslim Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: He who ate seven dates (of the land situated) between these two lava plains in the morning, no poison will harm him until it is evening. (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080 - #023 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=023&translator=2&start=0&number=5080#5080 - #5080 ) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=dates+poison&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all �Aisha reported Allah�s Messenger as saying, �The �ajwah dates of al-�Aliya taken as the first thing in the morning, in the state of fasting; contain healing for all (kinds of) magic or toxins.� (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23592) http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/07/hadith-ajwa-dates-and-science.htmlSo according to Muhammad, if you eat 7 ajwa dates in the morning, you would not be affected by either toxins or magic. Bring someone who eats 7 ajwa dates each morning to your house, and feed them some food that is laced with botulism or some other toxin. Regardless of what Muhammad stated, the person would die or at least get very hurt. If you eat 7 ajwa dates in the AM and then are bitten by a poisonous snake, you would also get very badly hurt or die. How do you explain Muhammad's obvious error in this case? |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 4:01am
| We muslims never say hadiths are the word of Allah,u claim bible is the word of God, I m proving to u Quran is the word of Allah and it is, I m quoting u quotes from bible which u claim is the word of God, hadiths are the sayings of Prophet and yes they are moderated but Quran is the pure book Allah takes up the responisibility to preseving Quran in ch 15 v 9 and yes Alhamdullilah most people ranging from children to old people many of them know Quran by heart, ones again brother u r contraindicating yourself by quoting ch 27 v 52, word desolate means uninhabited, means that it never ever existed. U in ur previous post said Quran is not wrong but the findings show it, means on the basis of findings u r saying but did ur findings directly say Quran is wrong?? Scientists say they recorded their findings but they also say the reference of quran means they give preference to Quran first and then they talk.majeed khan said the word interpret in the site past horizon.com, I think u have visited that!!!! |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 5:59am
But don't you believe that Muhammad received his teachings from God? As a Muslim, are you allowed to ignore and not follow the hadiths?
Yes.
You are trying to.
The Bible is inspired by God. Some parts in the Bible were added later and were not in the original copies, like Mark 16:9-20.
If hadiths are sayings of Muhammad, where did he get his teachings from? What do you mean by "they are moderated"?
I believe this. It doesn't mean the Quran is true, however.
"uninhabited" means that no one is living in a place, not that the place never existed. I will show you the tafsirs of this verse. Al Jalalalyn So those then are their houses [lying] deserted (khāwiyatan is in the accusative because it is a circumstantial qualifier, the operator of which is the import of the demonstrative pronoun [tilka, �those�]) because of the evil which they did, that is, their disbelief. Surely in that there is a sign, a lesson, for a people who have knowledge, of Our power and are thus admonished. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=27&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Tafsir Ibn Abbas (See, yonder are their dwellings empty and in ruins because they did wrong) because of their idolatry. (Lo! Herein) in that which We did to them (is indeed a portent) a sign and an admonition (for a people who have knowledge) who believe in that which was done to them. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=27&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 , We destroyed them and their nation, all together. These are their houses in utter ruin,) i.e., deserted.'' http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2234&Itemid=83 So as we can see, the Quran stated that these "houses" were still around during the time of Muhammad, but that they were in deserted and empty and "in ruins".
No, I said that the archaeologists do not say "the Quran is wrong", but their findings clearly show this. If I say "the sun is blue", then science clearly proves me wrong. A scientist does not have to say "TG12345 is wrong", he or she just needs to show that the sun is not blue, and then that means I am wrong whether or not he or she says this.
My findings say that the buildings carved out of stone at Al Hijr were carved by the Nabataeans in the between the 2nd century BC and the 2nd century AD. The Quran claims they were carved out of stone by the Thamud before Moses. Obviously, this shows that the Quran is wrong.
Please show me where, on any of the sites I have shown so far, this is the case.
He said it in reference to the rock art, not the buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr. Have you read the site? Allahu Akhbar! |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 8:04am
| because the hadiths were written 300 years after the death of prophet,some of them are authentic some are not,what the main thing is these are written by humans after all,but Qur'an is the word Of Allah so there is no doubt that we believe in Qur'an but in hadiths we do research and then follow,I can't comment because my knowledge in field of Qur'an and hadith is progressing and will b till the end of my life,moreover regarding blue colour of sun its logical that sun is not blue bcoz we c it,I want to ask U a question the residence U R living is the only residence at that plot,does that mean there were no houses on other plots over like in 1700's or before,similarly u quote me any statement quoted by muslim scientist regarding Qur'an being wrong,u say some verses of bible are inspired by God means still in ur bottom of ur heart u feel bible is not word of God,but I say definitely Qur'an "is" the word of Allah,because if u have believed that bible is the word then u should not have said the word inspired. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 24 August 2013 at 8:35pm
|
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA
No, but that isn't what the Quran verse says. The Quran verse describes the buildings carved out of rocks at Al Hijr that were around at the time of Muhammad and states they were made by the Thamud. In fact, they were built by the Nabataeans.
I already quoted a website co-authored by a Muslim archaeologist (Majeed Khan), which states that the buildings carved out of stone at Al Hijr were carved by the Nabataeans between the 2nd century BC and 2nd century AD. I also cited UNESCO and the First International Conference fro Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries, and they say the same thing. Their findings contradict the Quran's account that the Thamud were the ones who carved the buildings.
Not at all. Only some parts that are in our Bibles were added later, and the editors point that out in our Bibles. Those parts of course as a Christian I do not consider inspired by God, unlike the rest. Jesus taught that the truth will set us free, so I am not afraid to recognize the truth, and neither were the editors of my Bible, and hence they very honestly showed that some verses were not in the originals.
If the Quran is the word of Allah, why did Allah mistake the Nabataeans for the Thamud? Also, you haven't continued our discussion on verses 25:53 and 55:19,20. I showed you clearly that when salty water and non-salty water mix, there is no barrier between them that keeps either water from transgressing. This is as true of the Meditteranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean at the Sill of Gibraltar, as it is of estuaries. http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25822
Why not? The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. Unlike the Quran and hadiths, it contains no scientific and historical errors that cannot be explained away easily. I love Allah. He is my Creator, and my Saviour and my Lord. As the Father, He sent Himself down as the Son to die on the cross for your salvation and mine. I would never ever say a word to insult Him or make fun of Him. Because I love Allah, I could never state that He wrote the Quran or hadiths. The Quran not only denies His trinitarian nature and His death and suffering on the cross, but it also contains mistakes that a human could make, but He couldn't. The Bible describes Him. The Quran says some true things about Him, but also other untrue things, like claiming He is its author. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 25 August 2013 at 7:32am
| Look,I prefer to exhibit I m a Muslim through my actions for example I offer 5 time salaah,this is the action our beloved prophet use to do,means I m following prophet,our prophet said that convey the message of Islam to other,that's what I m doing here and also other places,our prophet used to recite tahajjud(voluntary prayer at night),that also I do but not regularly but in Sha Allah I will do daily,so there are so many things I do what prophet used to do but I don't declare or say I do,thru my actions I show I m a Muslim.i say this to U because U tell me m I Quran-only Muslim??its a fact some hadiths are moderated.i say that i m not 100% good,nobody is if somebody says he is sinless then he is a liar. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 25 August 2013 at 7:48am
| regarding the verse 25-53,go to the site English.islamicmessage.com,it is mentioned that Dr William Hay a scientist has confirmed the phenomenon of barrier between salty and non salty water,its a fact present at gibralter,and in case of estuaries pycnoclinic zone acts as barrier,moreover I haven't found any scientific organizations that contraindicates Qur'an they say they were created by nabaeteans but they also mention what Qur'an says means they give preference to Qur'an which is right.if U say U love Allah y U assign human attributes to him such as dying,I ask U a simple question for one moment think U R neutral and I present U a verse-Allah is one,Allah is eternal,he begets not begot,there is nothing like him.based on this verse do U really think God can die???Allah has no end no beginning Allah is one,the Almighty,Allah says in ch 3 v 185-every living thing will have to taste death,so U think God who is responsible for life can die???think about it. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 August 2013 at 5:34pm
I don't normally link to videos, but in this case I think it is worthwhile to hear what Dr. Hay himself has to say about this in his own words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMTRzqocoFY - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMTRzqocoFY
Dr. Hay explains that he was duped into making certain statements that were then quoted out of context to make it seem as if he was confirming the divine origin of the Quran, when in fact he absolutely denies that claim. Start at about the 4 minute mark if you don't want to hear the whole thing.
No, it doesn't, as I already told you. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline - pycnoclinic zone simply refers to the layer where mixing takes place. And mixing does indeed take place, though maybe not as rapidly as some might expect. There is no barrier. The Quran is wrong about that. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 25 August 2013 at 9:38pm
Salaam Alaikum, NABA.
I would like to see a quote of what he actually said. There is a zone between salty and "sweet" water, but it is a zone in which both salty and "sweet" water mix.
The Sill of Gibraltar is a terrible example to use, given that the Quran verses state that one of the seas is not only "sweet" but also "palatable". 25:53 It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed. Neither the Atlantic Ocean or the Mediterranean Sea is "palatable" or "sweet". If you drink seawater, you will get sick and you may even die. Drinking seawater can be deadly to humans
One of the instruments scientists can use to measure salinity is a CTD rosette, which measures the Conductivity (salinity), Temperature, and Depth of the water column. Seawater contains salt. When humans drink seawater, their cells are thus taking in water and salt. While humans can safely ingest small amounts of salt, the salt content in seawater is much higher than what can be processed by the human body. Additionally, when we consume salt as part of our daily diets, we also drink liquids, which help to dilute the salt and keep it at a healthy level. Living cells do depend on sodium chloride (salt) to maintain the body�s chemical balances and reactions; however, too much sodium can be deadly. Human kidneys can only make urine that is less salty than salt water. Therefore, to get rid of all the excess salt taken in by drinking seawater, you have to urinate more water than you drank. Eventually, you die of dehydration even as you become thirstier. http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/drinksw.html If the author of the Quran referred to either the Mediterranean Sea or the Atlantic Ocean as "palatable", then we have yet more evidence that he cannot be God.
As I have already demonstrated, in estuaries, the water mixes at a certain level. I will post this again. Salt-wedge estuaries are the most stratified, or least mixed, of all estuaries (Molles, 2002; Ross, 1995). They are also called highly stratified estuaries. Salt-wedge estuaries occur when a rapidly flowing river discharges into the ocean where tidal currents are weak. The force of the river pushing fresh water out to sea rather than tidal currents transporting seawater upstream determines the water circulation in these estuaries. As fresh water is less dense than saltwater, it floats above the seawater. A sharp boundary is created between the water masses, with fresh water floating on top and a wedge of saltwater on the bottom. Some mixing does occur at the boundary between the two water masses, but it is generally slight. The location of the wedge varies with the weather and tidal conditions. Examples of salt-wedge estuaries are the Columbia River in Washington and Oregon, the Hudson River in New York, and the Mississippi River in Louisiana. In the animation below, the blue-colored fresh water flows from the river on the right-hand side of the image over a green-colored wedge of salty seawater as it moves out toward the ocean on the left-hand side of the image. http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/estuaries/media/supp_estuar05a_wedge.html The pycnoclinic zone exists in oceans, and it separates water that has already been mixed from other water. Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales, the smallest scale being molecular. If a layer of warm, salty water lies above a layer of colder, fresher water, the heat and salt will tend to diffuse (spread out) downwards to make a single layer with intermediate temperature and salinity values. However, because heat diffuses faster than salt, the process can lead to local instabilities in the density structure which cause mixing within a layer many meters thick. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic.
Several eddies in the Pacific Ocean are visible in this pseudo-color
satellite view of British Columbia's Queen Charlotte Islands
and Alaska's Alexander Archipelago. The eddies are formed by
strong outflow currents from coastal rivers that are rich in nutrients
from spring snowmelt. The nutrient-rich water helps stimulate
phytoplankton blooms, whose chlorophyll concentrations yield the
colored swirls.
Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind (in the upper layers), by tides (particularly close to shore or in confined areas or those with rough topography), or by currents. Mixing by winds and tides often results in a surface mixed layer having homogeneous temperature and salinity. This layer may be separated from the water below it by a jump in temperature or salinity, known as a thermocline or pycnocline, respectively. * Read more: http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html#ixzz2d2vND3wn - http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html#ixzz2d2vND3wn
If they say the buildings were created by the Nabataeans, they contradict the Quran, because the Quran states they were built by the Thamud. Are you a Quran only Muslim? I'm not sure if you've answered my question.
Which of the sites I cited mentioned that? And even if they did, so what, if their findings proved that the buildings the Quran claims were built by the Thamud were actually built by the Nabataeans, almost a milennium afterwards?
This verse is from the Quran, and as I have shown already, the Quran contains some obvious scientific and historical errors, so it cannot be from God. Allah is one. Yes. Allah is eternal. Yes. Allah begets not nor was He begotten. False. Allah the Father begat Allah the Son. Allah begat Himself and came down to the world. There is nothing like Allah. True. We human beings can never be like God. He created us in His likeness and image and has helped us understand Him better through the prophets and Scriptures and by appearing among us as a Jesus, but we can never truly understand Him. Allah chose to die for us on the cross. However, Allah is a Trinity. So while Allah the Son died, Allah the Father and Holy Spirit was alive. Allah was both alive and dead simultaneously. How is it possible for us? It isn't. But for Him, everything is possible. He is amazing!
All this is true.
Of course God can die if He chooses to die. Do you believe God cannot die? Are you saying there are things He can and cannot do? Are you telling God to live by your rules? Are you bossing Him around? May He guide you to Him. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 25 August 2013 at 9:39pm
Thank you for the video and article! The video was quite amazing to watch! |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 26 August 2013 at 7:27am
| Surah Al Boorj ch 85 v 16,Allah says Allah does what he intends to do,Since U accept Allah is eternal so obviously Allah can't die,eternal means free from diseases. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 26 August 2013 at 12:00pm
| U accept that Allah has no end no beginning! ! Then u say God dies (nosbillah) how???? For eg if Naba dies, in other words Naba is ended, so u accept that Allah has no end nor beginning yet u say God dies!!! Moreover in bible in books of acts ch 2 v 22-it is mentioned that Jesus a man approved from u by God through miracles!!!! Miracle was that Jesus(pbuh) was born without human intervention.look Allah is boss of everything Allah says in Quran in ch 6 v 59-even a leaf can't fall without Allah's permission in ch 10 v 61-everything equal to an atom is known to Allah, brother the way u r ascribing humanely attributes to Allah fear him!!!! U know to say merry Christmas(nosbillah) is wrong in islam, because by thisone is giving shahdah that Allah has begotten son (nosbillah), n u r ascribing these words to it??? Is this your love??? U read Quran only to find faults??? U should read ch 19 v 88-92-Allah says they (unbelievers) say Allah has begotten son, if sky would have feelings it would have burst out, if earth would have feelings it would have burst out, the word begotten should not at all b ascribed to Allah.Allah is one, the Almighty, way above all needs.AllahuAkbar!!!!!! |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 August 2013 at 2:54pm
Salaam Alaikum. Allah is eternal, but that does not mean that He cannot choose to die and then come back to life. Are you telling Allah what He can and cannot do? Do you feel you are good enough to tell Him of His limitations? Also, according to both Islam and Christianity, people are eternal beings. We live now, and when we die, we will either enter heaven or hell, and abide there eternally. If eternal beings like us can die, why can't Allah? Are you saying that He is incapable of doing something that humans do? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 August 2013 at 3:02pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.
Yes.
God died by allowing Himself to be nailed to the cross, as Jesus Christ. As the Father and the Holy Spirit, He did not die. He simultaneously died and remained alive.
When NABA or TG12345 dies, we are not ended. When we die, our life on this earth has ended, and we begin preparing for our eternal life. It may be in heaven or in hell, but it will be eternal. Although we die, this does not mean we cease to exist. If we can die and still live eternally, are you saying God cannot?
Yes.
Jesus was both man and God. The Bible teaches this, in Colossians 2:8-10 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits "#fen-ESV-29486a" - a ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29486a - a ] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
That was one of His miracles. He also raised the dead, walked on water, rose from the dead, and did other amazing things.
Allah indeed does know everything and nothing happens without His permission. I love Allah and I fear Him. I do not want to go to hell for rejecting what He did for me on the cross. Do you?
Allah has begotten Himself.
You mean "Merry Christmas"? There is no such phrase in the Bible. Have you read the Bible? I've read the Quran.
No, but as I read it I found several mistakes. You have been unable to disprove them. By saying Allah wrote the Quran, you are insulting Allah. Do you think He makes mistakes about His own creation?
According to the Quran. A book that was allegedly written by Allah, yet contains mistakes.
True. All praise be to Allah, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit! Blessed be His Name!!!! |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 27 August 2013 at 7:19am
| eternal means forever existing or having no end,how can we b eternal???I proved U whatever allegations U put,it is very difficult to repeat the logic to U,at one time U agree that Allah is one yet U believe in concept of trinity,at the same time U agree that Allah is eternal and then u say God dies??then I prove u the meaning of desolate,yet u R sticking at one point no matter how long we are going to discuss,I will remain with views and continously prove u wrong,u didn't respond about gospel of mark ch 16 v 17-18,if u say bible is inspired by God,then how come the definite mistakes in bible are pointed out,give me the link that scientific Muslim organization says Qur'an is wrong.Allah says in ch 39 v 41-truth is in front of u either accept it or reject it.Allah is way superior than human beings,he does not need to do what humans do,for eg if a create a car does that mean I had to drink petrol???similarly we R creations of Allah. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 27 August 2013 at 5:24pm
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.
When we die, will God not resurrect us and make us live forever either in heaven or in hell? Unlike God, we did not always exist. However, like Him, we will live forever. This of course does not mean we will ever be God or similar to Him.
No you didn't. I proved to you that the Quran makes false claims.
Yes. Trinity does not mean Allah is not one. Trinity means He is one and exists as three persons. His oneness is not compromised though. Do you believe Allah is incapable of being one and a trinity at the same time? Are you placing limits on Him?
Yes. Allah died as Jesus, and remained alive simultaneously as the Father and Holy Spirit. Do you believe it is not possible for Him to die and yet remain alive and eternal?
You said that "desolate" means "never existed". You provided no evidence whatsoever to back up such a definition. I provided you both tafsirs and dictionary definitions that show it means a deserted place.
Yes, and unlike you, I back up my answers with evidence.
I look forward to you trying to prove me wrong. Thus far, you have not presented any evidence to back up your assertions that states what you want it to say, and get frustrated with me for using evidence to back up my points.
I did respond. I said it is an addition that was not in the original Scriptures. I also pointed out that most of the things described in these verses were done by people in the early church.
Which mistakes? Mark 16:17-18 is an addition, and not part of the original. Most Bibles have a footnote stating this. Please present me any evidence you see of "definite mistakes" in the Bible? I have already presented two from the Quran... which you are unable to refute.
I don't need to. I gave you a link to a Muslim organization that states that the buildings carved out of stone at Al Hijr were built by the Nabataeans between the last 2 centuries of BC and the first 2 of AD, while the Quran erroneously states they were built by the Thamud before the time of Moses. I have also presented academic non-Muslim sources stating the same thing. You have not presented any academic sources refuting this. I have presented academic sources showing that bodies of water that are salty and less salty do indeed mix, and there is no impassable barrier between them like the Quran states. You presented a Muslim source which quoted an oceanologist out of context, which he refuted in the interview that Rob Webb linked to.
I agree. This is why I accept the Bible and reject parts of the Quran.
Allah is superior to us all, and He does not need to do anything. He does not need a throne, yet Muslims and Christians believe He sits on one. He did not need to die on the cross, yet Christians believe He chose to do so. Allah Akhbar! All praise and glory be to Allah the Father, Son and Holy Spirit! Blessed be His Name! |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 28 August 2013 at 7:31am
| U explain this to me!!!in bible in book of genesis ch 1 v 29-mentioned all fruits and seed bearing plants are edible for us,even a layman knows that there are several poisonous plants,so according to bible God doesn't know what is bad for beings,similarly in book of leveticus ch 12 v 1-5,it is mentioned that when a woman gives a birth to male she is unclean for 40 days,when she gives birth to female she is unclean for 80 days,it is illogical,what U claim doesn't make sense,because I still repeat the fact that 100 yrs from now archaeology will discover that the place in which naba stays was created by John,does that mean I never existed or I didn't have any home,similar is the case of thamud,U didn't mentioned about lithyanites who were also before nabaeteans,and yeah don't say that the verses above are additions,Allah says in Qur'an in ch 50 v 16-Allah knows man than man himself,he describes his closeness in this verse as if it is closer than its jugular vein.Allah says don't consume pork in ch 5 v 1,we all know pork is root of several diseases. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 28 August 2013 at 8:15pm
|
Salaam
Alaikum, NABA. Before Adam sinned, all plants were good for human consumption. After he did, one of the things that God cursed him with was the weeds that would come up from the soil. Genesis 3:17-20 explains that the
ground became cursed because of Adam, and that he would have to work for his
food, and it would produce thorns and thistles for him. 2. Name of Acute Disease: Honey Intoxication Honey intoxication is caused by the consumption of honey produced from the nectar of rhododendrons. The grayanotoxins cause the intoxication. The specific grayanotoxins vary with the plant species. These compounds are diterpenes, polyhydroxylated cyclic hydrocarbons that do not contain nitrogen. Other names associated with the disease is rhododendron poisoning, mad honey intoxication or grayanotoxin poisoning. People who have eaten honey produced by bees that have eaten this plant have fallen extremely sick. The page below contains a list of plants that are pollinated by bees, and which cause them to produce honey that is toxic and sometimes fatal as a "drink" to humans. http://healthmad.com/nutrition/honey-are-you-toxic Genesis 1 describes the earth as it was before the fall. Unless you can
prove me wrong, 16:68,69 gives instructions to people living both today and during Muhammad's time. Adromeda (Bog rosemary), has a substance called grayanotoxin which cause humans, who eat honey made from its nectar, to become paralyzed in their limbs and then the diaphragm, constricting breathing, which leads to death.
Keep in mind that this was the Old Testament law that was given to Jews, and to no one else. It isn�t any more �illogical� than a hadith that states that angels will not enter a house where there is a dog or a picture. (4) Narrated Ibn Abbas: Abu Talha, a companion of Allah's Apostle and one of those who fought at Badr together with Allah's Apostle told me that Allah's Apostle said. "angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture" He meant the images of creatures that have souls. (Book http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=59&translator=1&start=0&number=338 - #59 , Hadith http://searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=59&translator=1&start=0&number=338#338 - #338 ) http://searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=angel+dog&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all - http://searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=angel+dog&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all
This doesn�t make any sense either, but I�m not criticizing it because there is no way to prove or disprove it, or even explain it logically. Likewise with the uncleanliness of the woman after the birth of a male and female child.
what U claim
doesn't make sense,because I still repeat the fact that 100 yrs from now
archaeology will discover that the place in which naba stays was created by
John,does that mean I never existed or I didn't have any home, No, it doesn�t mean that you never existed or that you didn�t have a home. But if someone pointed to John�s house that was built over where your house used to be and said �this is the house NABA built�, that would be false. Don�t you see this? The Quran points to houses that were carved out of rock by the Nabataeans and says they were carved out of rock by the Thamud.
similar is the
case of thamud, See above.
Why would I mention them? Neither they or the Thamud carved the houses from rock that are described in the Quran. The Nabataeans did.
and yeah don't
say that the verses above are additions, Which verses?
Psalm 139:1-6 states that God knows us better than we know ourselves. Before we say something, He knows what we are going to say. His knowledge is so much past ours.
Psalm 139:1-6 1 You have searched me, Lord,
God made pork- as well as shellfish and many other things- prohibited to the Israelites. There are no more dietary restrictions on Christians today.
Also, pork is not any more harmful than other meats. It depends on what part is eaten, how it is cooked, etc. http://www.livestrong.com/article/411907-what-are-the-health-benefits-of-pork-vs-poultry/ - http://www.livestrong.com/article/411907-what-are-the-health-benefits-of-pork-vs-poultry/
|
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 29 August 2013 at 7:33am
| y don't U quote the truth that honey also acts as a medicine,in ulcers,gastric disturbances etc.the disease U R quoting is very rare,U R the first person to show me that disease,y do U quote hadiths,because some hadiths are moderated we R talking about only Qur'an n bible,U claim bible is the word of god and I claim Qur'an is and it is. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 29 August 2013 at 7:58am
That is true. It is also true that eating honey can kill you. It can be a healing drink, it can also kill you.
It's actually not a disease, it is what happens when bees eat some plants... their honey will make people very sick and may even kill them. It has happened in history, and it happens now. Why didn't the Quran's author think of this when he told people that honey is a drink that is good for healing? If someone feeling sick were to drink honey made from a bee that collected from the Andromeda plant, he or she would die, instead of being healed.
I am quoting only the hadiths from Bukhari and Muslim. If they are not sahih, please show me.
I quote the hadiths because for Muslims, they are important and you cannot be a Muslim and ignore them. Do you not believe that Muhammad's teachings came from God? Are you not called to obey both God and His messenger? I have quoted the Quran regarding the buildings mistakenly attributed to the Thamud, regarding its mistake on a forbidden barrier between bodies of water, and now regarding its carelessness in saying that honey is a drink that is healing to some people... while not mentioning that it can also kill. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 29 August 2013 at 9:52am
| how can U say that I m a Qur'an only Muslim.prophet said convey the message of Islam I m doing,prophet said b good to ur parents I m doing,prophet said don't do backbiting I m following this,prophet said in hadeeths no 6114-the real man is one who is able to control his anger,I m following this.Alhamdullilah all this I m doing because of Allah,because not even a leaf can fall without permission of Allah(ch 6 v 59).now coming to the point read the verse carefully eat from the fruits U mentioned then U talk about plants and observe carefully what Allah says in the end this is the sign of people who give thought,means Allah wants to apply our wisdom means we should enquiry before doing anything,Allah says in ch 7 v 31-Allah says eat up all good things but don't commit excess and Allah hate the wasters.now I explain to U for eg cabbage is not forbidden,but a wise man will always wash then eat,cabbage is good but cabbage at shop is not always good sometimes it is sprayed with pesticides or contain worms so if U think logically what is "good",good means free from bad things,means a cabbage with pesticide is harmful for us,so we purify and then eat.moreover how do U know that lithyanites had not created structures for eg 100 years from now a new team will claim structures were made by lithyanites then????ur claim is unique,y don't u accept many organisations say that structure may b created by nabaeteans but they always say about Qur'an means they give importance to Qur'an.similarly Allah says u can consume meat,it doesn't mean I will consume rotten meat,I will check whether it is fresh or not,so Allah urges us to apply our wisdom that he has provided.i believe Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)is the best man,I feel satisfied when I propagate Islam to others because this was his commandment,its a fact some hadiths are moderated so I believe whatever actions I can do I will do,there are many more things I do what prophet said which is impossible for me to tell u.otherwise I will need lot of posts. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 29 August 2013 at 1:22pm
You seem to not want to discuss the hadiths, so I was wondering. I didn't say that you are a Quran only Muslim, I asked if you are one.
Glad to hear you are living out the good things in your faith.
We agree on this also, God controls everything.
No, according to the tafsirs this means that we should reflect on the facts He listed and recognize His greatness, not "apply our own wisdom". (Then eat of all fruits) from all types of fruits, (and follow the ways of your Lord, made smooth (for thee)) made tractable for you. (There cometh forth from their bellies) from the bellies of bees (a drink diverse of hues) red, yellow and white, (wherein) in honey there (is healing for mankind) from illness; it is also said that this means: there is in the Qur'an healing for mankind. (Lo! Herein) in that which I have mentioned there (is indeed a portent) a sign and lesson (for people who reflect) on what I have created. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=69&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Then eat from every [kind of] fruit, and follow, enter, the ways of your Lord, [follow] His paths in seeking pastures, [ways] made easily accessible� (dhululan is the plural of dhalūl, and is a circumstantial qualifier referring to al-subul, �the ways�, in other words, [those paths] disposed for you, such that they pose no difficulty for you, even if it should be rough [terrain], and [such that] you would not lose your way when returning therefrom, even if it be far away; it [dhululan] is also said to be [a circumstantial qualifier] referring to the person of [the pronominal suffix of] fa�slukī, �you follow�, meaning [in this case] [follow those paths] in compliance with what is required of you). There comes forth from their bellies a drink, namely, honey, of diverse hues, wherein is a cure for mankind, from [all] ailments; it is also said [that it means that it is a cure only] for some [ailments], as indicated by the indefinite [noun] shifā�un, �a cure�; or [that it is a cure] for all [ailments] when supplemented with some other [remedy]; or without these [other remedies] but with the resolve (niyya) [to get better]. The Prophet (s) used to prescribe it for anyone suffering from stomach pains, as reported by the two Shaykhs [Bukhārī and Muslim]. Surely in that there is a sign for a people who reflect, upon God�s handiwork, exalted be He. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=69&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 (There is indeed a sign in that for people who reflect.) meaning in the fact that Allah inspires this weak little creature to travel through the vast fields and feed from every kind of fruit, then gather it for wax and honey, which are some of the best things, in this is a sign for people who think about the might and power of the bee's Creator Who causes all of this to happen. From this they learn that He is the Initiator, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise, the All-Knowing, the Most Generous, the Most Merciful. http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2964&Itemid=71
True, but this isn't what we are discussing. A person who eats honey from a bee that collected pollen from toxic fruit will get sick regardless of how much he or she eats.
The difference is that pesticides are made by people, and worms are not part of the cabbage to begin with. Also, the dirt on them is not part of the plant. Bees who make honey from the Andromeda fruits are doing exactly what the Quran tells them to do, and in eating their honey, people are doing something that God allegedly said there is healing. The problem, of course, is that they get sick and/or die later.
The buildings were dated to the time of the Nabataeans. If you can show me any evidence from archaeologists that they were built by the Thamud or Lihyanites, please show me.
Actually, they say that the structures were created by the Nabataeans, and they say when they were created. They don't say "the Quran is wrong" but they also don't say that these structures were built by the Thamud... like the Quran mistakenly claims.
Of course you shouldn't consume rotten meat, you should consume it when it is fresh. You also shouldn't consume rotten honey, it may even ferment. The difference is that fresh meat from a healthy halal land animal is always good, whereas fresh honey from a healthy bee may or may not end up treating you... in fact, it can sometimes kill you.
Feel free to write all you want. I believe Muhammad was a sincere person who believed he was doing good in the world and who believed in God, but he was definitely not a prophet of God. In addition to the evidence I have shown you already to demonstrate this, I can show you more. Come to Jesus, who is God and who died on the cross for you and for me and for Muhammad and everyone else in history. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 30 August 2013 at 7:12am
| I believe that Jesus(pbuh) is the prominent messenger of Allah,no Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn't believe in Jesus(pbuh),ALLAH lifted jesus(pbuh) alive(ch 4 v 157-158),because Jesus Christ(pbuh) is the only messenger whose followers claimed that he claimed divinity which is FALSE.visit the site Just Genesis:Thamudic scripts.Thamud was the community that existed after Ad community,Allah sent prophet Hud(pbuh) to propogate oneness of God to Ad,most people from Ad revolted against him and in return Allah caused calamity and the surviving people after calamity on Ad were Thamud people who are still believed to b one of the best architects of mankind,they used to carve buildings from mountains.from among the thamud community Allah chose Prophet Saleh(pbuh) to propogate oneness of Allah to them. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 30 August 2013 at 8:22am
Muslims respect and honour Jesus and recognize Him as prophet. He was however even more than this. He is God in the flesh, who came down as the Son and died for us on the cross.
It is TRUE that He is God and it is TRUE that He is the Son of God and it is TRUE that He died on the cross and rose from the dead.
Fascinating site, thank you for sharing it. It states that the Thamud were a people who lived in the ancient times, and that they made rock art. It says absolutely nothing about them carving homes out of rock, either at Al Hijr, or anywhere else. http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.ca/2011/11/thamudic-scripts.html
It is true that the Thamud were a community. It is not true that they were "the best architects of mankind". There is no record outside of the Quran of them carving homes from rocks. There is evidence that the buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr... the same ones that the Quran describes in the present tense and that Muhammad told his men not to enter without weeping... were built not by the Thamud, but by the Nabataeans. The Quran is wrong about the buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr, as it is wrong about bodies of water being prevented from mixing by a "forbidden barrier", and about many other things. It's author was clearly unaware of plants, since He told bees to "eat from all the fruits"... even when there are some fruits that bees cannot get to or are poisoned by. It is a good book and there is some truth and wisdom in it, but it is not from God. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 31 August 2013 at 7:09am
| visit the site perishednations.com.i gave U the response,because in that verse regarding bee,the last line was this is for people who give thought,so obviously a wise guy will enquire before extracting honey. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 31 August 2013 at 11:26am
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA. I am quite surprised that you referred to that site... if it is true, it means the Quran is doubly wrong. Harun Yahya wrote: Archaeological Finds about Thamud Of those peoples mentioned in the Qur'an, Thamud are some of the people about whom we have the most extensive knowledge today. Historical resources reveal that a people called Thamud indeed existed. The community of al-Hijr mentioned in the Qur'an are thought
to be the same people as Thamud. The other name of Thamud
is Ashab al-Hijr. So, the word "Thamud" is the
name of a people, while the city of al-Hijr is one of those
cities founded by these people. The Greek geographer Pliny's
descriptions agree with this. Pliny wrote that Domatha and
Hegra were the locations where Thamud resided, and this
latter makes up the city of Hijr today. http://perishednations.com/thamud2.html So the Thamud were first mentioned in the 8th century BC, and they "totally disappeared" between AD 400 and AD 600. Yet the Quran states that they were destroyed before Moses, who lived before 1100 BC. Why you brought this site up, I have no idea. It also does not provide any historical or archaeological evidence for the claim that the building carved out of rock at Al Hijr were made by the Thamud before Salih. The author states that the Thamud carved homes out of rock, using the Quran as his reference, and nothing more. He states there is archaeological evidence of the Thamud... and that it is comprised of Thamudic rock writings and pictures... not buildings. He then shows pictures of buildings carved out of rock at Petra... and admits that these buildings were made by the Nabataeans.
http://perishednations.com/thamud2.html So Harun Yahya mentions that the buildings carved out of rock that are found at Petra (he says nothing about archaeological findings in Al Hijr) were made by the Nabataeans. He states that the archaeological evidence from the Thamud is comprised of rock art.
As I have shown you, the tafsirs explain that the part "for people who give thought" is a reference to that people are supposed to realize that God made the bee. You seem to be suggesting that people should not believe the words of the Quran unconditionally. In other words, even if God says that honey provides healing, we shouldn't really trust Him because sometimes it can also make you sick. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 01 September 2013 at 7:47am
| but honey acts as a medicine yes??okay Allah mention this in ch 16 v 68-69,but Allah in ch 5 v 90 says don't intoxicate ur body,so obviously we will enquire about bees,because Allah also questions our wisdom in the end of verse,do U know how honey is extracted??its a tedious process,in that verse Allah says that eat of fruits to bees not humans,moreover Allah in ch 2 v 222 says Allah loves those who R pure,means pure people will consume clean products that's y Allah urges us to keep our minds open while reading Qur'an.Prophet Muhammad S.A.W(pbuh) said trust in Allah and tie the camel means trust in Allah but work hard.i told u about the site because it doesn't say Qur'an is wrong,u say the word if in ur statement I say definitely the structures are made by thamud.Allah says in ch 29 v 69-strive in way of Allah,Allah will open pathways,so man decided to extract honey slowly slowly Allah guided man to better ways of extraction bcoz u also know not even a leaf falls without permission of Allah(ch 6 v 59). |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 September 2013 at 11:14am
Sometimes as a medicine, and sometimes as a poison. The Quran's author didn't point that out.
Poisonous honey is not an intoxicant.
Yes, He said to bees to eat of all the fruits. This is despite the fact that there are fruits that bees are incapable of eating, and there are others that poison them. Why would God tell bees to do something they are incapable of doing?
Honey from Andromeda is very clean.
So if Allah tells you something is good for you, should you believe Him right away, or make sure you look into it to make sure He isn't wrong?
The site says the Thamud disappeared in AD400-600. The Quran claims they were destroyed before Moses, who lived before 1100 BC.
Archaeologists who have actually done research will tell you that the structures were made by the Nabataeans. Not even the site you cited claims the buildings in Petra were made by the Thamud.
It doesn't matter how slowly or carefully you extract honey from bees that have eaten of the Andromeda plant. The honey will still harm you. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 02 September 2013 at 7:10am
| obviously if any poison comes in our body we will say our body is toxicated,Allah says in ch 16 v 14-fishes are permissible to eat but before eating we have to make sure it is clean or not I can't eat it raw,because I have faith in Allah I m consuming it,Allah has given us brains for what??to live wisely Allah says in ch 8 v 29-that fear of Allah in an individual urges him to differentiate between good and bad,for eg Allah says meat is permissible but in ch 2 v 173,ch 6 v 145,ch 16 v 115,Allah forbids us those food on which other name is there besides Allah,in short we consume halal meat I.e in the name Allah,besides that scientifically halal meat is good for health,I give this example to U because Allah says honey is good for health,I believe in him but when I m consuming honey,I also think that don't intoxicate my body(ch 5 v 90),don't let ir hands to b the cause of your own destruction(ch 2 v 195),disease U quoted is one of the rare diseases it may happen to those who R not professional extracters,i ask U where U buy honey from???from a local source or a branded source??obviously U will buy from branded source because they keep all things in mind. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 02 September 2013 at 10:55am
Salaam Alaikum. The disease I quoted isn`t a disease at all, it is simply the effect of some types of honey... something that the Quran's author didn't consider telling the readers. Making comparisons to halal meat makes no sense, because the Quran makes it very clear what types of meat can be eaten, and what types cannot be. 16:14 talks not only about fish but about living things from the ocean, which God has given for people to eat. 5:90 is a reference to alcohol. Read the tafsirs. Your quote about 'professional extractors' and 'branded source' is quite interesting, because during Muhammad's time, there were no such things. People would extract honey from bees. If these bees took nectar from wholesome fruit, the people eating it would be fine. If the bees took nectar from some dangerous plants, the people eating it would get sick. The Quran has God on record as saying that honey contains healing. This is sometimes true, and sometimes also false. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 03 September 2013 at 7:09am
| Yes U R right about the fact that during Prophet Muhammad(pbuh),there were no facilities for extraction of honey,because during the time verses from Qur'an were revealing at that time,now I m presenting to U the appendix of Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation of Qur'an regarding Thamud and what he researched about them,here are his words-"Mr C M Doughty travelled in North western Arabia and Najd in 1880's,in his book Arabia deserta daughty describes his first view of Madina Saleh,approaching from north west-"At length in dim morning twilight,as we journeyed we come to a sandy brow and straight descending place between cliffs of sandstones.there was some shouting in forward and Aswad told me to look up and said that this was a famous place(Mabrak An Naqa),which was the kneeling place of she camel of Prophet Salih(pbuh),it is short at first steep and issues upon the plain of Al Hijra,Daughty took rubbings of some of inscriptions which were accessible to him and they were studied by great Semitic scholar Ernest Renan and published by Academic des inscriptions et belle letters.Sculpture and architecture are found to b of same kind of nabaeteans monuments at Petra,in Petra there R no dated inscriptions but at madina saleh are several,kneeling place and well of she camel plus no of local inscriptions keep alive the race memory of Thamud and Prophet Salih(pbuh). |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 03 September 2013 at 6:41pm
Then people were in an even greater danger if they took honey from bees. They had no way of knowing what the bees ate. If they followed what the Quran says and ate honey to get healed and the bees took it from pollen of certain plants, they could get very sick!
Interesting. This statement says that: The general result of these studies may be summarized. The sculpture and architecture are found to be of the same kind asthe Nabataean monuments at Petra (for which see note 1043 to 7:73). So even Yusuf Ali admits that the buildings at Madain Saleh were built by the Nabataeans. Yusuf Ali is wrong in saying there are no local inscriptions keeping alive the memory of the Thamud, since archaeologists from UNESCO and the Islamic Urban Heritage Conference mention they did leave behind them some rock art. Remember though what the Quran says... that the buildings carved out of rock at Al Hijr were made by them, and that Muhammad came across them and told his men to enter them weepingly. There is no evidence to indicate that the buildings at Al Hijr are homes made by the Thamud, and all evidence to indicate that they were in fact tombs built by the Nabataeans around a milennium after the events described in the Quran allegedly took place. Also, Yusuf Ali has no historical education, only a religious one. This is in contrast to the archaeologists... Muslim and non-Muslim... who dated the tombs at Madain Saleh and concluded they were built by the Nabataeans, long after Moses and even longer after Salih. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 03 September 2013 at 7:20pm
Here is the UNESCO description of Madain Saleh and the buildings found in that city.Outstanding Universal ValueThe archaeological site of Al-Hijr is a major site of the Nabataean civilisation, in the south of its zone of influence. Its integrity is remarkable and it is well conserved. It includes a major ensemble of tombs and monuments, whose architecture and decorations are directly cut into the sandstone. It bears witness to the encounter between a variety of decorative and architectural influences (Assyrian, Egyptian, Phoenician, Hellenistic), and the epigraphic presence of several ancient languages (Lihyanite, Talmudic, Nabataean, Greek, Latin). It bears witness to the development of Nabataean agricultural techniques using a large number of artificial wells in rocky ground. The wells are still in use. The ancient city of Hegra/Al-Hijr bears witness to the international caravan trade during late Antiquity. Criterion (ii): The site of Al-Hijr is located at a meeting point between various civilisations of late Antiquity, on a trade route between the Arabian Peninsula, the Mediterranean world and Asia. It bears outstanding witness to important cultural exchanges in architecture, decoration, language use and the caravan trade. Although the Nabataean city was abandoned during the pre-Islamic period, the route continued to play its international role for caravans and then for the pilgrimage to Mecca, up to its modernisation by the construction of the railway at the start of the 20th century. Criterion (iii): The site of Al-Hijr bears unique testimony to the Nabataean civilisation, between the 2nd and 3rd centuries BC and the pre-Islamic period, and particularly in the 1st century AD. It is an outstanding illustration of the architectural style specific to the Nabataeans, consisting of monuments directly cut into the rock, and with facades bearing a large number of decorative motifs. The site includes a set of wells, most of which were sunk into the rock, demonstrating the Nabataeans' mastery of hydraulic techniques for agricultural purposes. The testimony borne by Al-Hijr to the Nabataean civilisation is of outstanding integrity and authenticity, because of its early abandonment and the benefit over a very long period of highly favourable climatic conditions. The State Party has begun to set up an extremely comprehensive Local Management Unit, and this process is now under way. The announced management plan should enable satisfactory protection of the property. With this in mind, the plan should organise systematic monitoring of the conservation of the site, and prepare a project for the presentation of the Outstanding Universal Value of the property for the benefit both of visitors and of the population of the region. http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293 The Quran's author made a mistake. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 04 September 2013 at 7:29am
| U admit that Allah cause calamity to thamud???for ur sake lets believe that All structures made by thamud R destroyed its a chance that nabaeteans have created structures after them,moreover U have never mentioned about kneeling place n well of she camel which is still present today,i believe 100% that structures were made by Thamud. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 04 September 2013 at 5:24pm
Where did I say that?
If the structures made by the Thamud were destroyed and the Nabataeans built over them, it would mean that the Quran is wrong in describing the houses of the Thamud as still standing.
The Quran does not mention that the kneeling place of the camel still exists, unlike the houses of the Thamud. We know the Quran is wrong regarding the houses of the Thamud. The buildings carved out of rock at Madain Saleh are not houses of the Thamud, but tombs of the Nabataeans, built approximately 1,000 years after the events mentioned in the Quran. What archaeological or scientific proof do we have that the kneeling place of the camel was formed during the time of the Thamud and Saleh? What if it was formed before or later? We have dating of the tombs of at Madain Saleh... and it proves the Quran and hadiths wrong. Do we have dating of where the she-camel allegedly knelt? Please show it to me if you do.
Well, archaeology makes it 100% clear that they were made by the Nabataeans. Science also makes it 100% clear that there is no forbidden barrier between salty and non-salty water. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 05 September 2013 at 4:19am
| Watch the video truth uncut in which scientist dr William hay said that this Quran had come from a divine being, in other words he is accepting Quran is from Allah which is TRUE!!!!!!!!! Allah did cause calamity to Thamud didn't i show u the verse 68 from ch 11?? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 September 2013 at 4:23am
Salaam Alaikum, NABA.
Please provide me with a link to the video. Better yet, tell me his reasons for stating such a thing.
This is what 68:11 says: [And] scorner, going about with malicious gossip - What does this have to do with the Thamud? The Quran does state that God destroyed the Thamud. It also states that they carved their homes out of rock, and their homes can be seen at Al Hijr. We know that the "homes" in Al Hijr are in fact tombs that were carved out by the Nabataeans about 1,000 years after the events described in the Quran allegedly took place. The Quran made a very obvious historical error. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 06 September 2013 at 7:20am
| I said U to read ch 11 v 68 U did vice versa. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 September 2013 at 8:31pm
Salaam Alaikum, NABA. I read the verse. It does nothing to provide any evidence that the buildings at Al Hijr were built by the Thamud. It is evident that the Nabataeans built them. You have not been able to provide a shred of evidence to the contrary. I have provided you tons of evidence that the Nabataeans, not the Thamud, were the architects of the structures that Muhammad and the author of the Quran mistakenly attributed to the Thamud. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 07 September 2013 at 7:10am
| no U haven't showed that any science organization said Qur'an is wrong!!! |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 07 September 2013 at 3:41pm
I showed you evidence that the buildings in Al Hijr were built by the Nabataeans between 200 BC and AD 200. The Quran claims they were built by the Thamud before Moses. Conclusion: The Quran is wrong on that issue. I showed you evidence that salty and fresh water mixes. The Quran claims there is a barrier between them that is a forbidden partition, and that they do not transgress. Conclusion: The Quran is wrong on that issue. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 08 September 2013 at 7:30am
| no not a single scientist said that Qur'an is wrong,it can't b because Qur'an is the truth. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 September 2013 at 12:14pm
They don't need to. Their findings prove that it is wrong on some of the things it says. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 09 September 2013 at 7:03am
| U said that Islamic scientists also agree with ur view,I want to inform U that a person can't b Muslim if he doesn't believe in Qur'an so majeed khan is a Muslim therefore he cannot say Qur'an is wrong. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 September 2013 at 3:35pm
As I have shown you, according to the site that is coauthored by Majeed Khan, the buildings at Al Hijr were built by the Nabataeans. This fact is attested to also by other archaeologists. This assertion flies in the face of the Quran's statement that they were built by the Thamud. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 10 September 2013 at 7:19am
| I have seen that Majeed Khan said that it was difficult to interpret as a Muslim he believes what Qur'an says,he also applies the logic that they are chances that nabaeteans may have create structures several years after demolition of thamud but kneeling place n well of she camel confirms the fact that structures were made by thamud. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 11 September 2013 at 7:50pm
Salaam Alaikum.
He said this about rock art, not the buildings at Al Hijr. Why are you misquoting him?
Majeed Khan did not write anything about the kneeling place or well of the she-camel. Please provide me a quote from him even mentioning those things, directly or from the site he co-authored, or "confirming" that the structures were made by the Thamud. I provided you quotes from the site he coauthored that states that the Nabateans built the structures at Al Hijr. |
Posted By: quintessential
Date Posted: 12 September 2013 at 6:58am
|
@TG12345 Please do not alienate yourself by stating absolutes! At least preface your proclamations with "I believe" or "To the best of my knowledge" To just state "The Quran is wrong" as you do time and time again invalidates your intellect. We're all humans, you,me, the scientists,the archeologists,just mere humans. We do the best that we can and deduce the deductions we can. These deductions and such change over time as our means to deduce them increases. The guarantee that from a scientific standpoint at any given time we are absolutely correct is NOT 100%. That is what Science is,a constant study, a constant refining. For you or anybody to come out say, this,this,and that, boom! I know this for a fact now guys, this is how it is for sure,and then go on to make grand statements like "the Quran is Wrong, Mohammed(S.A.W) was not guided by Allah" is for lack of a more respectful word foolish. What you can say is:To the best of my understanding. All current Archeological evidence leads me to believe that the Nabaethians were the ones that built what the hadith described, not the Thamud.....that's a perfectly fine statement to make based on the evidence we have today. In my understanding from you're detailed reasoning and proofs of the subject it seems very clear the Naebethians did build stone carvings that stood around that time. Does that mean that it is entirely impossible for the Thamud to have ever built stone carvings themselves,the uses of which were later incorporated or adapted and thus ascribed to Naebethians by modern day scientists,or that later on their civilization was destroyed, left desolate? Nope! sorry to burst your bubble.... Because archeological evidence and research of the present day does not point to something, does not mean it is 100% QED categorically proven absolutely false. I'm sorry, that's not how science works. Of course it does not prove that its true either. Can you find me a panel of experts categorically stating that it is impossible for the thamud to have built any stone carvings that might later have been trans-mutated in form or use by a subsequent civilization? i doubt it. All in all Science and the Quran go hand in hand, i doubt your objectivity if you can skip over the big bag theory(one of the greatest scientific theories of our time) clearly stated in the Quran and choose a study of a hadith to come to a conclusion that "quran is not the word of Allah" You're not fooling any real muslims,not to sound preachy but we've been told of people like you. Ignore the obvious and stretch out the not so obvious to try and prove a point. You can choose to believe whatever you want but please, enough with the grandiose proclamations. You, like the rest of us have limited knowledge. Allah knows best. On the subject of the Quran vs Bible. Its not even an argument. The Quran is today as it was then. You know full well the bible has been added to and subtracted from countless times since its inception. Treaty of nicea aside its impossible to know whats what in the bible. I do,like all muslims believe that there is an authentic bible somewhere out there brought to us by Jesus but it lost to mankind from all the tampering since.This is generally agreed upon historically. Books added and excluded for political gain and what not.Translation after translation through the ages. It not being in its original tongue alone is enough cause for concern.Still I read it as it exists for what truth still lies underneath. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 12 September 2013 at 7:03am
| did Majeed Khan said Qur'an is wrong??moreover I have not said that khan told about kneeling place of she camel,In fact i showed U the appendix of Abdullah Yusuf Ali regarding this fact. |
Posted By: quintessential
Date Posted: 12 September 2013 at 8:05am
|
@NABA In the hadith mentioned it is possible Rasul was not even speaking about "houses" literally but as a metaphor for the location simply because it is the same location where the Thamud used to inhabit in the past. Metaphors and simiitudes and parables are very common. If the Thamud did spend time occupying that location previosly, despite subsequent civilizations it is not a stretch by any means to still refer to the land as the "house of the thamud" The area was generally still called Thamud long after the Thamud had gone even when it was occupied by others. Your're talking about Arabs here, very poetic, known to frequently not speak in the literal sense. Its not like he said "do not go into that house right there where i am pointing where the Thamud lived when they were alive, that house right there that was specifically carved out of stone by the thamud people and no one else, that same people that were destroyed ,the people Allah spoke of in the Quran when he said built stone carvings out of mountains, I am not speaking metaphorically I am categorically stating that those are the only people that built them" I think he was warning them not to go to the location where the thamud people that once lived there used to go when they were alive. he wanted them to go somewhere else to get water. What he spoke of when he said house of Thamud was the location they were, not what was specifically AT the location or which specific people built exactly what was presently at the location. That is left for us to speculate,study and what not. Even if you take it literrally and want to say they were "tombs" not "houses" One can surmise that "tombs" are "houses" of the dead. Nabathians could have chosen to build tombs there because Thamud built their tombs there previosly. Who knows. In Islam when you die your tomb where you are buried becomes your home until the day of judgement. So it would be where the spirits of the now deceased Thamud would be "housed", it does not matter if nabaethians built over it afterward.They died there so that is where their spirits "habitate"....but i'm just thinking out loud at this point.Its an authentic hadith though not the word of Allah, it was said by a man, written by a man and is subject to interpretation of men. Rasul was a deeply soulful man and he had a way with words. Islam itself is beautiful and the way things are conveyed are beautiful and require thought and reflection and then more thought. EDIT: I think you shouldn't waste any more time here, you're arguing with a Christian(and not a monotheistic one either, one that practices shirk. Anything other than saying Allah is "One" is shirk.Saying anything more is Shirk. Allah in three forms is shirk. Period.) with an agenda here. He's specifically going for one conclusion,he will never settle for any other possible interpretation of the hadith in question other than the one that leads him to where he wants to go. He is clearly bright enough to have gleaned at least one other possible train of thought that might cast doubt but instead has chosen to stay with this ONE line of reasoning for the sake of his quran is not the word of Allah grand proclamation purpose. One rebuttal is enough: "Lakum deena Kum waleeya deen" |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 12 September 2013 at 8:00pm
Salaam Alaikum.
No, but his research clearly shows this to be the case.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Yusuf Ali did not provide any evidence that the kneeling place of the she-camel is what he says it is. I have shown you evidence that in addition to the buildings in Al Hijr, the wells were also built by the Nabataeans. A question for you. Does the Quran state that Hinduism is false? |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 13 September 2013 at 7:28am
| Qur'an says only religion acceptable in sight of Allah is Islam(ch 3 v 19),Allah says no religion is acceptable besides Islam(ch 3 v 85),so there is no question of another religion,but Allah says in ch 6 v 108-don't blame another religion because in ignorance its followers will disrespect Allah,moreover Allah says in ch 16 v 125-Invite to the way of lord with beautiful words and preachings and argue with them in best possible manner.again I will repeat 100 years after at my residence new generation will create malls does that mean my house never existed??everbody is applying this logic in this case except U!!!!!.at quintessential brother Allah says in ch 88 v 21-22-give the message giving guidance is in hands of Allah but I feel very disgusted when someone attributes death to Allah.this is totally unacceptable.our prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said if U can't stop bad thing with ur hand at least stop with ur mouth,how can I keep silent when someone interferes with oneness of Allah. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 September 2013 at 11:03am
|
Hinduism is false, Polytheism is the worship or belief in multiple deities usually assembled into a pantheon of gods and goddesses, along with their own religions and rituals.
The Quran says Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, 112:2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge. 112:3 He neither begets nor is born, 112:4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent. Now who is the Author of the Bible? and did Jesus hear the word Christian? Was Jesus a Christian???? |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:19pm
Salaam Alaikum.
You have no problems with stating absolutes, so why you tell me not to do is beyond me... On the subject of the Quran vs Bible. Its not even an argument. The Quran is today as it was then. You know full well the bible has been added to and subtracted from countless times since its inception. Treaty of nicea aside its impossible to know whats what in the bible. All in all Science and the Quran go hand in hand, i doubt your objectivity if you can skip over the big bag theory(one of the greatest scientific theories of our time) clearly stated in the Quran and choose a study of a hadith to come to a conclusion that "quran is not the word of Allah" Consistency is a great thing, and it goes a long way.
Agreed. To that list, I would also add the author of the Quran.
So your argument seems to state that because our scientific knowledge may change, we don't know that we are absolutely correct. Yet you have no problem with using science to defend the Quran. How do you know that this scientific knowledge is 100% correct? The evidence that we have points us to the obvious fact that the buildings at Al Hijr were built not by the Thamud, but the Nabataeans. The Nabataeans also built such structures at Petra. There is no evidence to suggest that the Thamud ever built such structures.
As long as you say that from the best of your understanding, scientific evidence suggests that the Quran is correct, and manuscript evidence suggests there were additions to the Bible, instead of stating absolutes, like you have done so in the response.
I am glad you acknowledge this fact.
Is it possible for the Thamud to have built stone carvings, the uses of whuch were ascribed to the Nabataeans? Sure. It is also possible that these stone houses were built by angels, or demons, or a group of people that lived long before the Thamud. Maybe Adam built them, who knows. If you want to throw archaeological and scientific findings out the window and ignore evidence, it is your perogative. I don't see a panel of experts stating it is impossible for the Thamud to have built the homes, any more than them stating it would have been impossible for Adam or Gabriel to have built them. The archaeologists clearly state that the structures were built by the Nabataeans. Even you have admitted this. The Quran states they were built by the Thamud. The Quran and hadiths are wrong in this case.
I would love to see where the Quran states anything about the Big Bang Theory. I would also be curious why you would allude to it, since for all we know it could also not be true.
Please show me where I "ignore the obvious" and "stretch out" the "not so obvious".
I would suggest taking your own advice, my friend. I agree with you that Allah knows best.
Aside from a few verses that were added, the Gospels for the most part are the same. There are very minor variations that for the most part have no effect on the text. You are correct that the Quran has more manuscript evidence, but making a statement "the Quran is today as it was then" is also a grandiose proclamation. If you were to follow your own advice, you would have written "I believe the Quran is today as it was then".
It is "generally agreed upon historically" that Jesus have people "an authentic Bible"? Really? Please show me some non-Muslim scholarly sources stating such a thing. Does even the Quran or hadiths state such a thing?
What "political gain"? You can read the books that were excluded easily. Most of them do not present anything different from what is in the Bible we have today. There are Gnostic Gospels that were definitely rejected. If you were to read them, you would easily discover why.
Why is it a cause for concern?
And how do you decide what in it is that "still lies underneath" and what isn't? For someone who criticizes others for speaking in absolutes, I am surprised by the many absolutes you use in your responses. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:27pm
Salaam Alaikum.
You didn't answer my question though. Is there a verse in the Quran stating "Hinduism is false"? I ask because you demand that I show you a statement by Majeed Khan or other archaeologists that the Quran is false. I am asking you to adhere to the same standards that you expect of me and show me a verse from the Quran that states Hinduism is false.
The verse does not simply state that the Thamud built the houses, but it states that they are "abandoned" and "ruined", referring to them in the present form. Muhammad rode by these structures, and stated that they were the places where the Thamud lived. These structures were built by the Nabateans between the 2nd century BC and 2nd century AD, not the Thamud before Moses. Don't try to ascribe to me things that I did not say, it is dishonest to do such a thing. I didn't say that the Quran is wrong for saying that the Thamud carved homes out of rock. I am saying it is wrong in ascribing the stone tombs at Al Hijr by the Nabataeans to homes built by the Thamud.
Allah is one even as He is a Trinity, and even as He died on a cross. You are putting limits on Allah, and suggesting there are things He can and can not do, in the process denying what He did for you on the cross. That, my friend, is disgusting. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:34pm
Salaam Alaikum.
I made that argument in response to NABA's demand that I show a quote from archaeologists that the Quran is false. Of course, according to the Quran, Hinduism is false. It is false according to my faith also. We know this to be true from evidence from the Quran and Bible that clearly state there is one God who is our Creator and is to be worshiped and followed, not others. We also know that archaeologists have discovered that the buildings at Al Hijr were built by the Nabataeans, not by the Thamud.
The Bible was written by men throughout the centuries, whom God inspired.
Since God hears everything and Jesus is God, the answer is obviously yes. However, when He was on earth, the term "Christian" was not used.
Jesus is God. He is no more a Christian than Allah is a Muslim. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 16 September 2013 at 10:44pm
Greetings TG12345,not 6.
So How many men do you think wrote this Bible????I know that the first 5 books attributed to Moses were not written by Moses.Matthew,Mark,Luke and John were not written by them.These are all anonymous books.
Jesus is God??? whoa,I beg to ask what type of a God was he ?a man God? a God man?a God that eats and drinks?? please explain. Jesus did not hear the word Christian or Christianity nor did he subscribe to this three in one and one in three.called Trinity Jesus did not hear all these fancy misunderstood terms. Have a good day |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 17 September 2013 at 1:09pm
| U r not following the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) by believing in trinity, Jesus Christ (pbuh) said in various places in bible that our God is one yet u believe in trinity.a muslim is a person who follows commandments of Allah, u say bible is written by man Quran is the last revelation of Allah.y don't u mention about the kneeling place of she camelwhen u started the discussion, because u also believe inside that buildings were made by Thamud, ch 17 v 81 of Quran says when truth n false are in front of each other falsehood perishes. |