salaams,

Right on mouhssine4

hakeema

Begbie wrote: ak_m_f wrote: A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a �Middle Eastern conspiracy� behind the attack. Wow, I did not know this. Can you provide a link to some articles where this was stated ? ak_m_f wrote: The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces. Really ?!!! Again, I would be most interested in finding out more on this. Do you have any further information on the perpetrator ?

Timothy McVeigh who was executed for the Oklahoma City Bombing was a neo-Nazi who was trying to start the revolution foretold in the Turner Diaries.  He was a combat engineer attached to the Marines and studied his bomb making at Fort Leavenworth.  I do remember when the bomb first when off on that day, they assumed that it was done by the same people who bombed the World Trade Center.  It was only after a patrolman pulled McVeigh over and noticed "something" was out of place that the investigation shifted from international terrorism to domestic terrorism. 

All of this information is available online and by a number of credible sources.

i would like every muslim in this place to stand up against this oppression and dictatorship

Mouhsinne, experience has taught me that we have to stand up for ourselves. I very much doubt if you will get much support from our people. There may be a few who will help. There are many others who are fair and will stand up for you and they will come from outside and hopefully change the situation.

Wa-alaikum-Salaam

from a proud muslim alhamdou li Allah, i will say the truth even against my own brother

027.014:And they denied them, though their souls acknowledged them, for spite and arrogance. Then see the nature of the consequence for the wrong-doers!

We make bad terrorists

ak_m_f, no fenc dog, but you've just asked the stupidest question a muslim brother can possiblly ask, Muslims with fundamentalists and terrorists labels just don't belong in the same sentence, and I will give you my reasoning why..when September 11th happened, news stations everywhere were starting to speculate that it was "Muslim"-like or something stupid like that.

I disagree. The heinous acts of terrorism against the World Trade Center for exp were too well-timed and organized to be run by Muslims. I'm serious. I worked for the Muslim community long enough and there are some cold, hard facts about Muslims today:

1) we're not organized enough to pull off a 9/11
2) we're never on time. If there was such a thing as a Muslim terrorist, he would have missed the flight.

Apparently one of the terrorists was spotted at a bar before the plane fiasco. How did they know he was Muslim? Because he accidently left a Qur'an in the bar. Apparently that's what we do as Muslims. We like to carry the Qur'an to dance clubs, bars, burlesque houses and other not-so-Halal places so we can feel better before going on suicide missions. Idiots.

We might make some good villains in movies but in real life, we couldn't do any harm to this country even if we wanted to. We don't really have a good reason to blow up anything either. Unless it's a balloon. Balloons are fun to blow up.

peace - rudy

ak_m_f wrote: rami wrote: <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);"> assalamu alaikum ask them if they have met 1.6 billion muslims. is their any way i can change this prespective of muslims ? I mean where are the times when we were the leader in techonology & medecine? y cant we have those times back? one state one religion.

If you had the knoledge to bet he leader of tech and med then why are you not now??? Where is that so-called "Knowledge"

....Ok.......

ak_m_f in Page 1 said... "I mean where...we were the leader in techonology & medecine?"

So...I asked...

"If you had the knoledge to bet he leader of tech and med then why are you not now???"

Hope that was simple enough for you.

ak_m_f wrote: Salam, someone asked me this question: Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?

It is very obvious.

1. Islam is moving forward converting people along the way, therefore some group who are uninformed about what religion is all about don't like this at all, they think if their own friend or families are convert to Islam they think they are losing, and they do anything to stop the trend. These people are actually fall into the "stupid" category.

2. I play a dos boxing game at this moment, well I've been playing this game since 1993 since the 386 mechine, trust me. Anyway the idea of this game is by fighting the boxers one by one from weaker rank at the bottom end and gradually move up. In the end we will fight "the champ", this no:1 boxer which for some reason just won't stop torturing me in my life, let alone knock him out.

So, to enlighten me myself in my miserable life in this boxing game--even with such punching power, I still fight the lowest boxer in there by the name: "Larry lunch bucket", just to make me happy that at least I still can win, you know what I am saying? No of course you don't.

Imagine if the muslims today having a punching power say like China, will anyone call us terrorist?

Of course not, but because we are the "Larry lunch bucket" they do that. That two are the easiest reasons to grasp by me with my simple mind, mind you.

Anyway, if you ever think to play this game, avoid the number 28 boxer at all cost by the name "Smokin joe blow", that one is a maniac murderer placed in the wrong place. This game is cheating too you know, not just me. 

/////People from all over the world came to study in the muslim empire.
they learned Arabic because most of the knowledge was in that language./////

Where is that knoledge now?? Arabic still exists. Why are ppl not dying to learn in from all over the world now??

It is very simpel but you know how people want to make things complicated, islaam is an arabic word, in english it is submission for the sake of peace.

Submission for the sake of peace with The Creator and sustainer of all and everyone(you and me and all of the living beings) Allaha. Submission to Him means to obey His commands and leave what He forbids as to please Him and thus gaining Peace with Him, and these we find in the books (the torah(jewish) the evangel(christian) and koran(arabic). And doing mending works(good deeds).

We accept all the prophets and messengers who come with the truth of One god, and that Him we should please. We say "alaihim assalaam" which means "upon them is The Peace" when we mention prophets and messengers, because they achieved the peace, which is the peace of Allaha,amongst them are Moses and Jesus. We call christians and jews the people of the book(the word bible comes from the latin word Bibleo which means "book") And the prophet of "islaam" is Muhammed upon him is the peace, who came with the truth (to work to achieve peace with Allaha through obeying Him and do mending deeds in this life.)

We have been given this life and it is up to us what to do with it, the best thing is to leave it behind in a better state then when we came to it(when we were born) through doing mending works, and after we die our deeds and their effect on others is what will remain, and for our deeds we will be rewarded in the hereafter.

This is submission for the sake of peace.

Let me give you the perspective of someone who is not Muslim (or believer in any other faith for that matter).

I was at a park in Southern California the other day.  A large group of Muslims were there having some sort of party, maybe 100 or so.  I was fascinated and curious so I watched them for 5 to 10 minutes.  ALL of the women were gathered around the table preparing the meal.  Each of them were dressed in the traditional Islamic garb for women.  NONE of them were laughing, smiling or appeared to be enjoying the beautiful day.  They did not even appear to be engaged in conversation with each other.  On the other hand, ALL of the men were dressed in comfortable, stylish, casual clothing.  They were laughing, drinking, playing games.  NOT ONE SINGLE male was speaking to a female.

I don't think these people are terrorists but, you know what, this looks like an awful way to spend your life, particularly for the women.  Maybe they accept their lot in life and act accordingly but it "appears" to be oppression to a person like me who has been taught and believes in his heart that we are all equal, male and female.  I enjoy the company of women.  I love to hear their opinions and at times we engage in lively debate.  And you know what, sometimes the women WIN!

Whenever Islam decides to enter the 21st century maybe then outsiders will stop stereotyping Muslims. 

See statements like "Islam is perfect religion, it has no room for correction" scare the Hell out of someone like me.  Aside from it causing stagnation of any cultural or social development, it means that you will do whatever this ancient book, written by a single individual, tells you to do. 

Since 9/11 I've tried to better understand Islam.  I've read excerpts of the Quran and, quite franking, it sounds like the rantings of psychotic individual.  Sure there are a lot of good guidelines in it but there are also a lot of very disturbing passages.  Your complete acceptance of is as "perfect" even when it flies in the face of logic, reason and observation I find terrifying.

Regarding women here a few quick searches of the Quran I just generated. 

4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

2:222 They ask thee concerning women�s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

Granted, some things may get lost in translation but, come on, these are barbaric and ridiculous attitudes.  You guys are stuck in Medieval Times.  Islam will never be accepted by modern cultures while such sanctioned oppression exists nor will Islamic women tolerate such oppression indefinitely.

Oh, and here's some sound advice on how to treat your slaves, etc.:

24:33 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

58:3 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered,- (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.

That's some religion you guys got going on there.  Way to make the World a better place.

24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Oh yeah, that really going to fly in a modern culture.

tgrant, thankyou for taking the interest to read the Qur'an. Yes, even a Muslim who reads the Qur'an casually for the first time will think in the same way as you are thinking. This is because our minds and thoughts are conditioned to the behaviour that we see and experience around us everyday. The people around us and the environment that we live in sets for us what we believe is right or wrong. These rights and wrong are not compared against any criterion and anything that does not conform with the set of standards that we have set up for ourselves is dismissed as medieval or barbaric. But are the standards that we have set up for ourselves delivering the goods? Are we living in a society that is giving us true happiness (not drug induced euphoria)?

I don't think the western society that I live in is really happy. There are fathers who don't know if the child that they are providing for is really their's! There are parents worried about their teenager whether he or she will come home clean. Free sex, drugs, rock and roll, nudity, alcohol, gambling, homosexulaity and even incest are the most shameful things that are in existence today. Would you not want that all the above came to an end and we had a clean society? I certainly do. My heart cries for that homeless teenager in the street injecting himself/herself with God knows what! If only the parents whom he/she was born to had instilled in them some good values they would not be in the situation that they are in. The vicious cycle goes on and everything slowly becomes acceptable - sex without marriage, promiscuity, gay priests, alcohol in moderation, drug injecting rooms, gambling in moderation...... A CHAOTIC WORLD!

But this chaos does not exist in a household that follows the criterion that God has set out for mankind. Why, eventhough they follow these medieval and barbaric laws? Because they have accepted that the answers man has to all the evils in the world are flawed! After all who is man - was he not created out of a despicable fluid? And does he put aside God's wisdom and think he has the answers? My friend there is far greater significance to the verses you have quoted if only you would ponder and seek the commentary to those verses from well known scholars such as Yusuf Ali or Ibn Kathir (the latter I have heard is very good).

rami wrote: Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem If you are talking about the traslator of the Quran Yusuf Ali he was a civil servant not a proper muslim scholar. Today, tens of publishers have reprinted his translation, some even taking the liberty of changing it without acknowledging that changes have been made. Why these changes were necessary has not been explained either. Some, like the Saudis, have reprinted the translation with their own imprints as if it was commissioned by king Fahd in person. Such lack of honesty even with so noble a book as the Qur'an is reflective of the pathetic state of those who have imposed themselves on the Ummah.  http://www.afkar.com/yusuf.html - SEARCHING FOR SOLACE: A BIOGRAPHY OF ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI. http://www.iiie.net/1/content/view/33/44/ -

This is why all Muslims should devote at least part of each day to the study of the Arabic language. A translation of the Holy Qur'an is not the Qur'an but an interpretation and does not hold the validity of the original text.

On the role of women, let me ask it this way.  According to the Quran, are women to be subserviant to men?  Yes or no.  From my, al beit limited, observations, Muslim men appear to treat their wifes as property.  This is a show stopper in civilized cultures which will always make Islam a barbaric and unacceptable religion.  Is this behavior cultural or does in have its roots in the Quran?

rami: Your insightfulness into the dangers of interpretation should send up red flags.  You see, ALL communication is subject to interpretation.  [moderator edited] read the forum guidlines beffore you post.

BTW: I Actually happen to enjoy rock and roll.  Free sex would be great but I haven't come accross that just yet.  I'm not much into the other "vices" you mentioned but I believe in a person's freedom to make their own choices.  See this is were we differ.  You believe that EVERY persons behavior should be dictated by a book YOU find fullfilling.  I don't care if you wish to live in a cave or a castle, eat meat or vegatables, or what clothes you wear.  Live your life, follow your beliefs.  Just be tolerant of others who choose a different path. 

IMHO all religions feel that they constantly must recruit new membership becauase they are conflicted by the contractitions and illogic of their belief system.  They need others to agree with them so that they can feel a sense of "safety in numbers".

Tgrant wrote: BTW: I Actually happen to enjoy rock and roll.  Free sex would be great but I haven't come accross that just yet.  I'm not much into the other "vices" you mentioned but I believe in a person's freedom to make their own choices.  See this is were we differ.  You believe that EVERY persons behavior should be dictated by a book YOU find fullfilling.  I don't care if you wish to live in a cave or a castle, eat meat or vegatables, or what clothes you wear.  Live your life, follow your beliefs.  Just be tolerant of others who choose a different path. 

I am not intolerant of what you do or don't do. To everyone his own. I will not be held accountable for what you do and you won't be held accountable for me. It is not me going on to other religions websites and preaching my religion. When people come on to a website which is meant to expound Islam I am here to help clarify why I believe Islam can offer complete happiness and fulfillment, not the pseudo happiness that you seem to enjoy. You have taken the time to read the Quran and have yourself said that there is a lot of good in it. If you approach it with a clean heart and a cool mind and patience you will also see the truth. There are many who have found the truth and happiness and will never turn away and there are those who approach it in order to find fault and they are blinded, so they continue to blunder about. It is upto you which path you choose. May God guide you.

Tgrant wrote: On the role of women, let me ask it this way.  According to the Quran, are women to be subserviant to men?  Yes or no.  From my, al beit limited, observations, Muslim men appear to treat their wifes as property.  This is a show stopper in civilized cultures which will always make Islam a barbaric and unacceptable religion.  Is this behavior cultural or does in have its roots in the Quran?

The short answer to your question is NO. The roles of Men and women are defined. It is the duty of the Man to provide for his wife and children and also has a duty towards his parents. It is the duty of the woman to safeguard her husband's property in his absence. If the woman has her own earnings, these are for her to keep. He has no right to demand it from her. She can choose to share it or not share it with her husband. She has a share in her husband's estate upon his death and she has a share in her parents estate as well. One thing that at first glance intrigues Muslims and non-Muslims alike is why she receives only half of what a man receives. This is because God has assigned certain duties to men and certain duties to women. While whatever she receives is hers to keep, he has a duty to take care of his family.

Also please don't judge Islam by what you perceive in the behaviour of Muslims. Just as in any other religion there are different types of Muslims and each one will be judged on their own.

tgrant wrote: From my, al beit limited, observations, Muslim men appear to treat their wifes as property.

And of course in America, where men regularly go to clubs where women strip for them, and in some states legally use women as prostitutes, there is such a higher respect for women. Most civilized.

Maryga wrote: The roles of Men and women are defined.

This is were you lose me.  Why do religions have such a need to cast human being into certain roles based on their genitilia?  Why not use hair color?   Or better yet skin color.  This is how America was able to build the strongest economy in the world.  By casting blacks as sub-human.  Yeah, that worked out great.

Why not let a human being define his or her own "role" in life?  Why not let them make their own decisions, good or bad.  Strippers expose their bodies to men and take home thousands of dollars per week.  So who's really being exploited here, the men or the women?  The point is that no one is holding a gun to anyone's head.

tgrant wrote: This is were you lose me.  Why do religions have such a need to cast human being into certain roles based on their genitilia?  Why not use hair color?   Or better yet skin color.  This is how America was able to build the strongest economy in the world.  By casting blacks as sub-human.  Yeah, that worked out great.

In the past the humanity ignored their differences based on their genitilia and the result was - they did not know that their existance and continous existance relied havily by the existance of women who bring humanity into this world. It was religion who inform humanity of this abnormality. Men with men was normal relationship, they just did not know what was wrong with it. 

But yes, if there was no information regarding this or ignore it and they would extinct, we would not be here by now.

Beside that, physically women are weaker and thats why they are encouraged to use their head. Anyway I don't actually know what is your rant all about other than just rant: 

Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward. (33:35)

wrote: Why not let a human being define his or her own "role" in life?  Why not let them make their own decisions, good or bad.

We live in this world as a community, a bad conduct by one member craete an impact or impact to others, commonsense.

wrote: Strippers expose their bodies to men and take home thousands of dollars per week.

So, once you have your way than every woman strip their clothes, will than each and every one of them will take home thousands of dollars per week? The harvard economist will disagree with you - I think.

wrote: So who's really being exploited here, the men or the women?  The point is that no one is holding a gun to anyone's head.

Try refuse to pay tax on your payroll and tell them that you are a free guy who does not live under any master, and see what's happen. It does not do any good barking in here. 

*First post, from a female Christian in USA.

tgrant - I was withya buddy; then, well I simply had to disagree.....

Men and Women ARE cast in certain roles because we ARE different.  How can you put hair, skin color in the same basket as genetalia?  Men and Women can have the same hair and skin color, but most men and women - well, the genetalia is what "defines" them, thus you call them Man or Woman(except in cases of birth defects as hermaphrodite etc...)

Man did not only build strong economy of world only on basis of casting blacks as subhuman - it is "OUR" nature, mankind to be Evil first and Righteous only as struggle through discipline.  We are BORN of sin.

My point (that I don't clearly nor quickly make, sorry) - my point is that - we SHOULD not "make our own choices" based on our own "feeeeelings" of what our role in life should be because then where are the boundaries?  Then there is no line between right and wrong....        &nb sp;         &nb sp;     Like NAMBLA(North American Man/Boy Love Association)>those perverted pedophiles SICKEN me - but they profess it as their CHOICE..........and the ACLU has even come to their defense (reference Michael Savage books and Bill O'Reilly books - conservative American radio hosts.)

We believers base our choices(should)on precise and accurate religeous doctrine word of God - I choose to believe the Bible's teachings that Jesus IS the Son of God.  The New Testament teaches me to follow Jesus and his desciples, not turn to a different source (Qur'an nor Muhammed)

Yes, God gave us free will - but He hopes we choose righteousness and He teaches us through the Bible what is sin, what is right, wrong, perverted, what corrupts, what kills, etc....         Where lies your moral compass?>based on your 'self' determining the rules of right and/or wrong?  based on another 'mans' word - a mere mortal human being?  We are so ignorant and unworthy of such power compared to God.  We humans could NEVER have imagined such perfections as in the laws of physics, the vast universe, the miracle of conception, birth, creation, the details of existance, DNA, scientific relationship connections of energy and matter....etc.  There HAS to be a God(as far as I base my faith)        

I digress - back to original topic - I, as a Christian visiting this site would simply state that I happen to NOT believe that most of the Muslims are terrorists, but I still have serious reservations about Islam and Muslims........

I appreciate your time if you chose to read - sorry for the long post.

Bismillah,

Has a study been done to see where most of the Muslims are in the range of liberal to extreme?  That would be a very interesting thing to read.

There are many different sects and types of Muslims all over the world.  We have to try really hard in this world to find out the facts, the truths, that this world holds.  Keep looking, but look longer, much longer.  Be scientific about your search; keep records.  A little story here and there can't lead you to a scientific conclusion.

I have been to many of those parties.  The women do laugh and have fun many times.  So you just didn't stay long enough to see that.  Yes, many of the women are the primary cooks of the family.  What is your problem with that?  But many of the cookouts the men cook the meat and work the entire cookout also.  I guess you didn't see one like that yet.

We have parties inside where the women dance, laugh, sing and talk.  It's really fun.  Women can and do have fun as Muslim women.  I like being in parties with women and no men because I can be myself, like a kid I guess, and not worry about some guy's impression of me.  I never had much fun at the ones I had to go to as a young girl.  My church had dances that we were encouraged to attend.  They were so uncomfortable!  But that's me.  Well, come to think of it, most of the girls and guys just sat around staring at the floor.  Hmm.

And guess what?  According to Websters I'm probably a fundamentalist.  I'm very opinionated, you might have noticed.  Also, the women in my husband's family, whom are Phalasteeni, are opionated, outspoken and strong women.  A lot of them take care of the kids at home and cook while their husbands work outside the home.

There have to be four witnesses to leud behavior.  These fools who implement the Quraanic laws differently are causing the trouble, not the Quraan itself.

Slavery was accepted and Allah, SWT, was guiding the people in different ways to leave the evil of slavery behind.  The Muslims did it faster and more efficiently than say, Tom Jeffereson and George Washington, who had slaves when they died and did not properly provide for them to be freed and stay with their families and have homes.  Slavery is not acceptable now, and people who do this will be punished by God when they die, if not in this world also.

Rami, I guess I'm the revert of a civil servant then because it was his translation and commentary that caused me to accept Islam years ago. 

Tgrant wrote: �This is were you lose me.  Why do religions have such a need to cast human being into certain roles based on their genitilia?  Why not use hair color?   Or better yet skin color.  This is how America was able to build the strongest economy in the world.  By casting blacks as sub-human.  Yeah, that worked out great.�

I�m sorry Tgrant, I don�t blame you for your understanding of the issue. It is the environment in which you were brought up that inhibits your understanding of something so basic as the differences between a man and a woman. If you believe that the order in which life exists in most parts of the western worlds (which is also permeating to the third world) is perfect then I�d say please continue to enjoy your life in which you have found bliss. But I don�t believe this is so and many are seeking to look out for that perfect order and fortunately, are finding it the truth in Islam.

I think others here have responded to you and I just wish to add that when God has created man and woman differently and when that difference has been based on the word that you use, He has also defined the roles and functions of each of them. A man cannot give birth to a child nor can he wean a child. The physical differences have been attributed to fulfil the roles assigned. No role is in any way inferior or superior and one cannot exist without the other. The lack of this basic understanding has led to the chaos that exists today. Women are taking up the roles of men and we have broken families, single parents and children who don�t know who their real fathers are etc. If you think that is the perfect world God help!

America may be the strongest economy today but are all Americans happy? Here in Australia I have seen a string of documentaries called 30 days (I think) based on the life and society in America, but I can say that the poor in India are more happier than those poor Americans. And you will be pleased to know that in Islam we don�t differentiate anyone by the colour of their skin or hair, everyone is equal before God.

Falcon wrote: Man did not only build strong economy of world only on basis of casting blacks as subhuman - it is "OUR" nature, mankind to be Evil first and Righteous only as struggle through discipline.  We are BORN of sin.

IF the nature of mankind is to be evil first then I think all children born are born with satanic qualities and should have been buried as soon as they were born and the world would have been free of all evil. This makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand Islam believes that every child that is born is pure and free of all evil and comes with the will to submit completely to God. It is the parents or people around the child that make him/her become whatever they become. We are not born of sin rather we commit sin by absorbing satanic qualities of greed, hate etc. But when we seek to rectify ourselves then we also begin our search for guidance. Only a constant desire to cleanse oneself of sin can lead to the search for true guidance. That true guidance is in the belief of the existence of the One and Only true God and to work righteousness by following what He has enjoined.

Unlike the belief of the Christians that man is born of sin, in Islam we believe that man is born pure and has the opportunity to remain pure by believing in the One God and working righteousness. Then he has the hope of a good hereafter. He is accountable for all his actions and only true repentance can wipe out his sins and one cannot escape by just getting baptized into a Christian and confessing his sins to a priest.

Falcon also wrote: We believers base our choices(should)on precise and accurate religeous doctrine word of God - I choose to believe the Bible's teachings that Jesus IS the Son of God.  The New Testament teaches me to follow Jesus and his desciples, not turn to a different source (Qur'an nor Muhammed)

You guys have no idea how hillarious this is to me.  Wathing a debate on the merits of Christianity vs. Islam is like watching two children debate the "science" behind what makes raindeer fly.  Your assumptions are inane to say the least.

I've seen several references in this thread regarding the openmindedness required to understand Islam but before you spend the rest of your lives debating that which is untestable and hence unknowable you might want to "open your minds" to a few other possibilities:

Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org/ - http://www.secularhumanism.org/

String Theory: http://www.superstringtheory.com/ - http://www.superstringtheory.com/

Goedel's Theorem: http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/Logic/goedel.html - http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/Logic/goedel.html

I guess a good analogy would be that you are attempting to understand how an automobile works without looking under the hood.  You're sitting in the comfortable cabin speculating about squirls on treadmills and, worse yet, mystic powers which propel the vehicle.  Take a look under the hood folks.  You might be suprised at the progess intellectuals have been quitely making while the rest of us sat on the sidelines with our fantasies.

Good luck

Bismillah,

If you don't respect us, you really need to leave, Grant.  I took the time to look at your sites.  Sorry, I don't have time for a course in string theory right now.  As for the human secularism site, don't they have a discussion board there where you can communicate with people on your own level?

People who have faith have assumptions.  God is many things to us, and you have no respect for that and don't wish to learn anything from such "inane" people.  Go save the planet; it needs you.

Good on you Herjihad! Aptly said! I wonder why Tgrant came on to his site in the first place when he has already found the company of "intellectuals".

In your debate of Christianity vs Islam, there is no winner.  Every person must find their own way, some choose Judaism, some choose Islam, etc..  However, most accept the religion they are taught growing up!  A sort of indoctrination process.

A religion is based upon faith, there is not one true, correct religion.  Anyone claiming there faith or religion is the one and true religion is overreaching.

Tgran seems to have found a belief he is comfortable with and is just challenging you intellectually and your response is to tell him to get lost.  It is very important in todays world that we keep lines of communication open especially when we disagree.

Bismillah,

No, Lib, people come on this site for the sole purpose of laughing at and ridiculing believers, Muslims, multi-culturalism et cetera.  There are a lot of cases where others have dallied with such folks, and that is up to each of us.  However, we enjoy real intellectual challenges. 

 So it is very important not to clog the airwaves with senseless ridicule by succintly closing  the lines of degradation.

I am new to the discussion board and must tell you that I also see ridicule.  But most of it is done by pro-islam members against anyone with a differing opinion.

My purpose here is not to offend anyone but ask questions to gain a better understanding of Islam and share with you one westerners opinions.

My main purpose is to find out if there is any true compromise between our value of free speech and Islam.  Or does Islam demand punishment or death for saying, writing, drawing, certain things?  In this case there is no middle ground and there is no hope of Islam and western values coexisting.

Am I the only one concerned over the fate of Europe with its growing Muslim population?  Will it soon become the terrorists backyard as Israel is?  And I mean terrorists from both sides of the conflict, Muslims and Europeans!  The IRA was quite a successful terrorist organization.  Will we soon just be killing each other in small blasts until someone finally has had enough and decides to use a nuclear weapon?

liberty wrote: Am I the only one concerned over the fate of Europe with its growing Muslim population?  Will it soon become the terrorists backyard as Israel is?  And I mean terrorists from both sides of the conflict, Muslims and Europeans!  The IRA was quite a successful terrorist organization.  Will we soon just be killing each other in small blasts until someone finally has had enough and decides to use a nuclear weapon?

No you are not.  It is a much discussed topic of conversation for us British.  The fact that we are seeing our very own culture erode before our eyes at an alarming rate resulting in fear.  Many veiw that ultimately we will turn into another Iraq.  We are seeing the beginnings already with the protests, flag burning and "westerners you will die" banners.  Can anyone tell my why every muslim country is in chaos?

Personally I am trying to get my head around the whole thing, and it isnt easy.

Please don't compare the IRA to muslim terrorists it is a completely different issue as the essence of thier attacks was over land which spiralled out of control.  Now pretty much disbanded since the 9/11 attacks.  Did you know they use to send a warning before they attacked?  While unjustifiable its still completely different planting a bomb to walking onto a crowded train with a knapsack.

Can anyone tell my why every muslim country is in chaos?

Interesting question.  But will there be any answer that does not blame the West?

I am surely not qualified to answer or comment since I do not live in a Muslim nation.  I can only comment intelligently about the politics in the USA.

It will be quite interesting hearing a response to this question.

DavidC, Brilliant response. I completely agree.

Ketchup & Liberty, most Muslims do not accept the actions of those Muslims who are involved in violent protest. It is wrong. The cartoons were expression of a satanic quality (inciting hatred & anger) and the response is also a satanic quality (blind rage knowing no boundaries).

The crux of the problem lies in the attitude of the United States and its supporters. The illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel with the blatant support of the US  and the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan by the US & its supporting countries - this is at the heart of the hurt and anger which most Muslims feel for their brethren. The response of the weak and the victims is really bad. But in democracies people have the power to bring down governments which are the cause of terrorism. But we are passive observers giving our "wise" comments and hiding in the comfort of our homes. Unless we (every individual of a western democracy) take responsibility and do as some of us did prior to the Iraq war (rallies of protest against the invasion) we are equally responsible for the terrorism we see and sometimes become victims of.

Maryga, are you suggesting that the US should not have gone after Bin Laden is Afghanistan although the Taliban government was protecting the men responsible for 9/11?

Once again I must state that I and many Americans did not support going into Iraq since they had no connection with Bin Laden.

However, I would suspect that if you ask most Iraqis today if they could choose between Sadam and a democratic government most would NOT choose Sadam.

The US should get out of Iraq ASAP!

However, I would suspect that if you ask most Iraqis today if they could choose between Sadam and a democratic government most would NOT choose Sadam.

Apologies! Apologies! That is why I say that everyone in a democracy is responsible for the ghost of terrorism which strikes us unawares! In your second sentence you first say you did not support the US going into Iraq and in the very next breath you join in the chorus of getting rid of Saddam!

The US did not go into Iraq to get rid of Saddam! They went on a false pretext of WMDs and the main intention was to open up the Muslim world for their evangelical crusade and also benefit from the Oil! But it all went horribly wrong with thousands of Iraqis dead!

Same with hunting the ghost of Bin Laden! Destruction, destruction, nothing but destruction & chaos! What have they achieved? More terrorists! Isn't it? So you still apologise and defend your government? Then you and I, if I were also to believe that the US was justified in its acts would become responsible for the conditions we face today.

I did not join in the chorus of getting rid of Saddam.

What I said was: Ask an Iraqi if he/she would rather continue with the democracy they have now or go back to Sadam's rule.  Which do you think he/she would choose?

I have never supported nor will ever support having gone into Iraq.

liberty wrote: I did not join in the chorus of getting rid of Saddam. What I said was: Ask an Iraqi if he/she would rather continue with the democracy they have now or go back to Sadam's rule.  Which do you think he/she would choose? I have never supported nor will ever support having gone into Iraq.

Well said.   Ukers will remember the massive divide over going to Iraq so while I continue to disagree with the war, I refuse to turn my back on my fellow country men who are posted out there because I'm sure as hell they dont want to be there either.

I sincerely hope that the US is out of there completely with in 5 years or sooner.  However, how long will it take for the muslims in the middle east to accept a democratically elected government in Iraq that does not have it's laws determine according to Koran?

A democratically elected government should be accepted by everyone isn't it Liberty? But when the super power who "champions" for democracy in the Middle East, does not want to accept the democratic choice of the people of Palestine, do you think the dicatorial regimes of many decades will embrace whatever your country imposes upon them? The world is truly tired of big brother. You may not understand this especially because even the press there seems to be very much in control of the government. The documentaries I have seen about the US here re-confirm my repulsion of that country. And it is hard to come across anyone in other countries who would speak one good thing about your government.

And what is wrong with having its laws determined in accordance with the Qur'an? There is no crime, no prostitution, no nudity on the streets of Saudi Arabia and that is what Muslims who like modesty and decency like to see.

And what is wrong with having its laws determined in accordance with the Qur'an?

There is a lot wrong with it for people who are not Muslims!  Or do you plan on forcing everyone one to convert or just accept Muslim law as the final word.  Not everyone, and I would think this is true even in the middle east, wants to live according to the Koran.  Not all believe in this text, just as in the West not all believe in the Bible.

As it is, it difficult enough for me to live in the USA with these fundamentalist Christians trying to push their pro-Christian agenda. No religious state for me, thank you.

We could also eliminate all sin by making them punishable by death.  Then we could live in a place where there is no crime, and no prostitution.  Would you like to live under this rule of law?

Liberty, first of all in Islam there is no forced conversion. One conveys the message and that is it. It is upto the individual to take it or leave it. Where Shariah Law is concerned  - not everything will be applicable to non_muslims. Only social laws such as dress code, behaviour, punishments for certain crimes such as theft etc are those that would apply. I am not an expert at Shariah law, but I am aware that in the past where Shariah law was prevalent, non-Muslims received protection from the state and were happy. 

Not all sins are punishable by death. I would certainly like to live in a place where there is no crime and no prostitution, would'nt you? We wouldn't have to worry about our children walking home from school alone, teenagers returning home late and school kids going on shooting rampages etc. Every system has its advantages and disadvantages. To rule out one to the exclusion of the prevalent is a folly, especially knowing well the high crime rate and deterioration of morality that is today. 

DavidC wrote: I think laws should be enacted only when there is objective damage to human life or property. Restrictions and corrections should be minimal.

DavidC wrote: If God is the only one offended, punishment should be left entirely to God. We all offend God and sin several times a day.

DavidC wrote:  To pick and choose which sins should suffer earthly consequences always ends up as "your sin is worse than my sin" and forces judges to the blasphemous condition of having to speak amd act in the name of God.

DavidC wrote: Believers of course will obey God's laws willingly.

The question of how to deal with non-Muslim living in Muslim dominated society, equitably and justly, are also part of this. If anyone needs to discuss them, certainly it would be a good thread to look at.

If God is the only one offended, punishment should be left entirely to God.

David, punishments exist in every system and thank God for them. Imagine a society where all punishments are left to God. I go to the shopping centre late in the evening when most of the crowds are gone yet, I come back disgusted with the sights I see. Perhaps people would walk about without the little clothes they put on these days.

Laws only for damage to human life & property! what about morality? I would'nt want to see an Ummah where like in some homes the father does not know if the child he is providing for is really his!

DavidC wrote: I think laws should be enacted only when there is objective damage to human life or property. Restrictions and corrections should be minimal.

Yes. Yes. Government should intrude upon our lives as little as necessary.  They should stay out of our personal lives and decisions.  Many people in the West that agree with this are uneasy with Islam since religion and politics seemed linked.

Are muslims happy living the democratic states or are they working towards making them Islamic states?

Bro, I think, your formula might work as long as these so called different task oriented "slaves" don't cross intereact with each other. However, the moment they come across each other, and that is a matter of fact, only that which emphasizes common rules of politics (i.e. Islam) can keep them "humans" on earth.

I think, this discussion of "church VS State" can also be viewed as "athism VS theism". For this kindly refer to my on going discussion with bro Tim at http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=555&PN=1&TPN=4 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=555& PN=1&TPN=4

Angela wrote: Begbie wrote: ak_m_f wrote: A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a �Middle Eastern conspiracy� behind the attack. Wow, I did not know this. Can you provide a link to some articles where this was stated ? ak_m_f wrote: The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces. Really ?!!! Again, I would be most interested in finding out more on this. Do you have any further information on the perpetrator ? Timothy McVeigh who was executed for the Oklahoma City Bombing was a neo-Nazi who was trying to start the revolution foretold in the Turner Diaries.  He was a combat engineer attached to the Marines and studied his bomb making at Fort Leavenworth.  I do remember when the bomb first when off on that day, they assumed that it was done by the same people who bombed the World Trade Center.  It was only after a patrolman pulled McVeigh over and noticed "something" was out of place that the investigation shifted from international terrorism to domestic terrorism.  All of this information is available online and by a number of credible sources.

This is absolutely correct. Whilst PRETENDING to damp-down tension, the Masonic governments of Britain and America are actually heightening it. They want it to look like a religious war, when it is really OIL CRUSADES.

In mid-February 2006, that wonderful Mayor of London (England) Ken Livingstone met up with Muslim leaders in order to promote inter-religious harmony. He stated CLEARLY that the riots in France, and the publication of anti-Muslim caricatures were GOVERNMENT POLICY.

Freemasons have taken over the Wikipedia. I put advice about curing a disease there - it was promptly erased, and a WAR broke out against me. All that I had said was that the skin pigmentation in Addison's disease can be used as a marker - if it goes, then so has the disease.

However, the devil is the God of Freemasonry. "Brothers" force each other to worship the devil, because it frightens them and keeps them docile. Then they spread lies.

So Wikipedia has now re-published the controversial images from Jyllands-Posten, and SEALED the page to "prevent vandalism".

A Wiki is a public-domain area where ANYBODY is entitled to edit the work. The Masonic gang look upon legitimate editing as "vandalism", and provoking violence as "encouraging freedom of speech".

Masons - who worship the devil - are OBLIGED to be FIENDISH.

So Wikipedia has become an unreliable source of information. It does play down the crimes of Masons like Pike or Nixon, but will not allow independent outsiders to express a view.

It has become a vehicle for sly disinformation.

Charles Douglas Wehner

CDW,

It's not an oil crisis, its a dollar crisis.