The rejection of modern prophets
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Topic: The rejection of modern prophets
Posted By: Israfil
Subject: The rejection of modern prophets
Date Posted: 18 October 2005 at 9:34pm
| This is meant as a friendly dialogue to our brothers and sisters of faith both Judaism and Christianity alike. I'd like for those of different faiths to prove how its logical now to have modern prophets/or why there are modern prophets....I will post my answer when enough can respond. |
Replies:
Posted By: Abeer23
Date Posted: 19 October 2005 at 1:09am
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 October 2005 at 8:56am
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God has always spoken to his people through prophets. They are his voice on earth. If God has always had Prophets, why would he suddenly stop having them? A prophet is the voice of God on Earth and a leader to the people of God. Without prophets, people go astray, they forget the message of the previous prophets and they start doing what they think is right and not what God wants. I have seen numerous arguements in here from different muslims on what this surah means or that hadith. There seems to be much confusion at times on what is meant by Mohammed's words. His message is very beautiful, full of peace and love. Yet, there are those who take his message and convince 14 year old boys to blow themselves up to kill a few Jews. Do you really think Mohammed would approve of such actions? I do not think so. Nor do I think God would approve. How do I know what God wants of me? Because my Prophet tells me. Twice a year, my Prophet speaks to us at General conference. Every month there is a message from them in our Ensign church magazine, giving us guidance and knowledge. Years before the Massachucetts Gay Marriage debate our Prophet and his counselors made A Proclamation to the World about marriage and its purpose. When the debate rages now, we now what God wants of us. Revelation is another reason for modern prophets. There are truths lost to time and as so many here like to point out scriptures get corrupted by men. When the Council of Nicea cut and pasted together the bible, they lost many truths and they corrupted many scriptures. Prophets like Mohammed and Joseph Smith were sent to correct these corruptions. They were also sent to prepare their peoples for the last days. They reveal to us the nature of God and the paths of salvation. Now, I'm not going to argue who's right and who's wrong. The logic behind living prophets is simple. God is unchanging. He has sent prophets throughout creation to us and he has given us these teachers to guide us. Why would he change? Amos 3:7 7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
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Posted By: rudy
Date Posted: 19 October 2005 at 9:45am
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AA rudy ------------- If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. Mother Teresa |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 19 October 2005 at 10:44pm
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Israfil, what do you mean by modern prophets ? forgive me if this sounds naive. -------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 20 October 2005 at 1:13am
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I am with Angel. Prophet means different things to different people. To
some it means any leader inspired by God. Other take it to mean one who has looked directly in the face of God and lived. Stillothers take it to mean one who can fortell the future. By modern I assume you mean after Muhummad? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 20 October 2005 at 5:21pm
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My apologies to everyone as I have been lately busy but i'm
glad to see that this subject is of interest to everyone. Now first before I go into detail my opinion on this matter let us first define a "prophet." Now i'm sure none of you are ignorant of the word prophet as we have seen it in our respective doctrines. We hold such individuals prophets (or prophetess) as individuals who are "inspired by God" and who are equipped with the knowledge of the divine either by direct contact or through some form of meditation which can transmit a type of divine knowledge. Now I must say that all humans with their intellect are equipped with the faculty of divine reception, what i mean is that we all have the capability of being prophets and prophetess. The philosopher Moses Maimonides in his book "Guide for the Perplex" he notes that the faculty of divine reception is evident in humans but this is not what makes an individual a prophet but the divine knowledge which comes from birth to adulthood. This knowledge is a type of training which trains the faculty (The divine reception). Along with this faculty there is the faculty of morality, purity etc that comes into play. Most prophets most notably Jesus and Mohommad withdrew from society rejecting the physical nature of the world and meditated on the metaphysics of life and the beyond. We see now that the extremely religious of our society today practice this. We also know that many monks in the times of Jesus and Mohammad practiced this as well. This type of practice can be seen as a spiritual purifier which can stimulate the mind to get aligned with the divine nature of the planet isolating all senses and being attunded with the reality of God. We see in the bible Jesus did something similar with his asting for 40 days, and Muhammad did this at Mount Arafat. All of these qualities accumilate to being a prophet a legitimate prophet along with the signs and miracles that God wills through them. I believe every prophet that God has sent had an additonal "supernatural" quality which also verified the truth they brought to their respective people. Now as we turn to the current subject we see that in our time, the time since the advent of Muhammad and Jesus the two worlds famous prophets along with Moses there hasn't been prophet like those three. Now most of you may know that God in the qur'an verifies that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets. It is later said that Allah (God) has sent over 100,000 prophets to various nations. Of curse many of you who may frown on the fact that God would not "seal" the prophetic mission with Muhammad may want to look at my argument for why that is. I have committed 5 reasons why: 1) When we talk about modern time I talk about the zenith of civilization, meaning the time of the climax of our socieities. Because mankind has evolved psychologically it is not necessary to send another prophet since mankind has developed the faculty of morality in contrast to the ancient people of Biblical and Quranic doctrine. What i mean from here is that the philosophical principles which would define religion, morality, law and the like were not as developed in those societies as they are today. Most people even in the time of Muhammad followed a particular law which was openly against the laws of God (i.e the tribes of Quraysh who were openly pagan and the people in that empire had to follow the State religion). The moral faculty of today along with the faculty of reason is another contrast because today in our respective societies we are able to follow our respective religions freedom of persecution. Unfortunately its not as consistent in every society as persecution of religion still exist today, but we must understand that our moral and reason faculty both allow us to make distinction religiously versus those in the past who undertsood spirituality in physical objects. we still have some of this today but on a lesser degree hence the spiritual message of God's Oneness does not need to be repeated since historically it is evident that there is a message of the Oneness of God. 2) The spirituality of God's message has not been duplicated. Since Muhammad there has been no religious institution whose leader has duplicated the spiritual text which the Qur'an has presented to humankind. We see from religious sects and additional gnostic beliefs presenting something which is in contrast to their orthodox brothers and sisters but nothing dynamic enough that would be of divine providence. The message of God's oneness is not unique since it is repetative in our doctrine as well as through reason therefore there is no need to reaffirm this for ages to come. this along with the faculty of our reason is enough to decide on this matter. 3) Anyone can claim prophethood. We have modern day prophets who claim to be successors of Jesus and Mohammad. I can claim prohethood and I can sit at my house and write 500 page book on the message God gave me through a vision or claim that I had direct contact with God. Using theory I can claim to foretell the futue and give futuristic predictions. We've had prophets who have claimed to have had visions of God and Jesus both. We have had prophets who have been "abducted" so to speak and have been transported in front of the court of God (similar to the beliefs of Sikhs of the advent of Guru Nanank) and later claim to be a prophet sent by god with divine knowledge. Anyone can claim prophethood but not all has the training of prophets this is what distinct modrn prophets from those of the old. Training, meditation are just basic forms of training. but even then just these alone cannot make a "prophet." 4) When we talk of prophets we talk about miracles of course and of course miracles doesn't have to be magical spells or tricks that can convince an entire populace, but a type of divine reaction in the natural world. We see with the flood and the parting of the seas as miracles because of divine reaction to the natural world. when challenged there has yet to be a prophet who has come from God who can meet these challenges. Although we Muslims agree that the Qur'an in itself with its beatific language is a type of divine artistry that is unmatched, but ven still Muhammad still perform "empirical miracles" in which his followers saw with their own eyes the divine inspiration within Muhammad. Of course you have prophets who can predict a certain "forecast" of events but we are talking about clear miracles in which the people has seen with their own eyes in consistency with the divine message. Of course God in the Qur'an even says that even if the Angels were shown to people there would be people still in denial calling what they see "magic." But for prophets who perform miracles this is an extraordinary event. And finally 5) Is that the continuation of God's spiritual message alone does not signify God's love for mankind. Many who would argue opposite would say that God's love and care for mankind is the continuation of his message. I disagree. The fact that humans are still on earth and are still free even now to sin, worship gods before the court of God and curse the planet is enoug proof that God continue to love mankind. Also we have found that even through the continuation of God there still is the greater possibility of corruption. We know that all prophets in the Judeo-Christian and Islamic tradition that have died and had successors whose empire flourished eventually fell. With the exception of the Qur'an most of the doctrine within such empires were lost and re-recorded some using the interpretation of individuals. We also know that many of these empire had so-called prophets after who claimed to be from God, nullifying current laws. This reminds me of a story where an individual in Iraq proclaimed to be a true successor of Muhammad and proclaimed to the people that they didn't have to pray 5 times a day! There are of course reasons to believe in the possibility of modern day prophets but as I have said before modern day prophet are extraordinary and are unlike the general population. I agree that we do have prophetic faculties but that alone and even with the particulars of being a prophet are even not enough. It takes the accumilation of these qualities along with divine will to put that individual in the divine category. |
Posted By: amlhabibi2000
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 3:30pm
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We are the Messiah, the Prophets, the Manifestations of God, the People of Spirit a Living Messiah in the multitudes not one of us but all of us. We are all equally resposible foe the care and well being of each other and the world. We are all Messengers of God. Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi 1995 ------------- Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8 |
Posted By: amlhabibi2000
Date Posted: 10 November 2005 at 3:33pm
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We are the Prophets, the People with the power to create heaven within each of us and all the world for the seen and unseen with affirmations of faith. There is hope and we are that hope! Inshallah we will sort more into resolution and caring groups. AM Elderkin Habibi
------------- Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8 |