http://www.mobile786.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17 - http://www.mobile786.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17

what do peaople think of Yusuf Islam.... I was listening to an internview with him on bbc radio and was kinda unsure with the fact that he is returning to pop music... have a listen to the interview.

Salam,

In my view, nothing wrong with music as long as the lyric if any is OK and used for a good mission. If we think clearly, music is the west's religion. If you want to touch the west heart, so music is very powerful media.

Allah/God know best.

Yes, I agree with Semar on this.  It was music that started me on the road to Islam!  It can be a very powerful message.

Peace, ummziba.

Thanks for getting back to me, I really am still un sure about it.... I was brought up with elders saying that music is very bad, and now everyone is fine...... should we not indulge in doubtful matters, as they will evetually lead us astray....

did anyone listen to the interview

http://www.mobile786.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17 - http://www.mobile786.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17

Assalamu alaikum,

Insha'Allah read the fatwa at the link below:

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002024.aspx - http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00002024.aspx

that was an interesting read - anybody else have any thoughts on this?

From the fatwa:
====
"This is also one of the main reasons for the prohibition of music, as it effects one�s emotions, creates arousal, passion and excitement, and also leads to various physiological changes in the person."

"It is also proved that music affects one�s emotions, increases arousal in terms of alertness and excitement and also leads to various psychological changes in the person. In a psychological experiment, it was found that listening to moderate type of music increased one�s normal heart beat, whilst listening to rock music the heart beat increased even further"
===

I totally agree with this. But I think music is just a tool, a "neutral tool" we can use for bad or evil. Music can make someone humble or arrogant, close to the creator or even further, bad excitement or good excitement and so on. Like a knife can be used to kill somebody or to help somebody. So it's not the music as a whole that must be prohibited but the type of music, the type of lyric etc. But "type" doesn't mean that rock is always bad, slow music always good. Probably the correct term is the "value" or "content" of the music. With similar analogy we can not prohibit a knife because can be used to kill somebody.

Allah knows best.

salaamz,

lets hope that Br. Yusuf Islam, may Allaah reward him for his contributions, has done an in-depth and careful research on the subject and would not do something against Islaamic teachings or something that could harm Ummah

his not so old audio-project entitled "I Look, I See", mainly targeted for children, helps establish some basics of Islaam in adults, too. Months of islaamic calendar, respect towards parents (a very nice piece on Mother), unity... voices, percussions - all well packaged on a CD.

Perhaps it is not so much of a music... but communication tool. 

Must be careful though with definitive statements. Something we definetely do not need is for "progressive" groups to start advocating some Islamic Gospels in the mosques...

MOCKBA 

As Salamu Alaikum

I have read lots of articles and heard a lot of lectures given by Br.Yusuf Islam Masha Allah they were very inspiring, but his going back to music that is something I am distressed about. To me it seems like he is undoing his good works even if this is done for a good cause.

The fatawas given by most scholars is that music is Haram.

The Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) stated that Haram is clear and Halal is clear but there are doubtful thing in between the two. It is better to stay away from these doubtful things and music is one of those doubtful things, because there are a few scholars who say it is okay.

Allah knows best as He is the Only One Who knows the intention of each and every one of us.

Salam,

I strongly against gospelization of the mosque. I myself don't like music but my wife and my kids do. They like Islamic song such as Muslim kids song, Adam world song etc. All of their collections have meaningful lyrics. For my kids other than entertaining also help them to understand Islam better, such us the ones of God, memorizing pillars of Islam, history of the prophet, be kind to others, etc.

It seems to me that there is far more "evil" on the internet than could ever be in music!  And yet, here we all are using this evil thing! 

It's not like we are four year olds who don't know right from wrong or how to control ourselves.  We all use this internet and (Allah willing) manage to keep away from all the very bad stuff available at the touch of our fingertips.  Why can't we manage to control ourselves to listen only to good/inspiring/useful music???

I couldn't imagine my life without music (and yes, I like rock).  Music lifts my spirits, makes me happy and most of all reminds me to thank Allah for all His wonderful gifts.

From what I have seen and read of Yusuf Islam, his deen is very strong.  I can't imagine that he would do anything but good, inspirational music that might bring more people to the fold of Islam.  And even if he does "bad" music, are we not mature enough not to listen if we don't want to? 

Peace, ummziba.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

Also from the Fatwa;

�Music and temporary entertainments sink the human in physical pleasures and prevent him/her from true spiritual gains. In conclusion, music has a great role to play in preventing a human from realising the purpose of creation.�

I agree with this 100%.

I admit that in my pre-Islamic period of ignorance, lyrics within music, at times, strengthened my search for the truth. However a Muslim who has given up the use of haram instruments, (in my opinion) should not transgress back therein.

I am aware he may be doing so with pure motivation, but surely Allah (SWT) has placed others (within the music world), who have not yet embraced Islam (but Insha Allah, will do so) to guide the �Lost� into the �Light�?

As I gradually corrected the unlawful things in my life (as I continue to do so), I realised that we do need to �sense something� (ie some evil people use sensory deprivation, as torture). However I found that in the silence of non-music, Allah (SWT) had been dwelling. I heard the songs of His birds, the sound of the trees dancing in the wind.

It is our own conditioning that makes us think, certain things are more enjoyable than others. Why are Allah�s (SWT) songs (which are free of cost & free of any �manipulation�) not as beautiful and enjoyable, as music?

I also agree about the fact that music can take us into a trance like state, where we forget our obligations (�As far as the songs are concerned, if they consist of anything that is unlawful or they prevent one from the obligatory duties, then they will be unlawful�).

Hence I do not intend to suggest that if you listen to music you should replace one trance like state (music) for another (Allah�s [SWT] songs), as in that silence of non-music, Allah (SWT) out of His Compassion, may wish/need to condemn the error of our ways, so that we may move closer to Him.

A final point, if I may, I see the harp used on coats of arms (crests) that belong to people whom I don not trust (I�ll let you decide if you want to look into masonic symbolism, it is easy to find on the internet), and I have even heard a scientific �theory of everything�, called �string theory� I do not want to corrupt you with it�s details, but it is a direct derivative of the �worship� of stringed instruments.

Wa-Salaam

Salam,

Good point ummziba, internet is another tool, another "neutral tool". And there is no script (hadith/quran or even classic scholar) talked about that specifically. So the judgment for it will be purely using logic.

Assalamu alaikum,

I find it very easy to agree with ukhti ummziba that music is a neutral tool, and that far worse things can be found on the internet. However, it would be wise to recall the conclusions of Ahmad Ibn al-Naqib al-Misri in "The Reliance of the Traveller:

****************
The position of the Ash`aris, the followers of Abul Hasan Ash`ari, is that the mind is unable to know the rule of Allah about the acts of those morally responsible except by means of His messengers and inspired books.

So it cannot be said that an act which the mind deems good is therefore good in the eyes of Allah, its performance called for, and its doer rewarded by Allah; or that whatever the mind feels to be bad is thus bad in the eyes of Allah, its non-performance called for and its doer punished by Allah.

"27:16. And Solomon was David�s heir, and he said: O men, we have been taught the speech of birds, and we have been granted of all things. Surely this is manifest grace."

I have heard it said that this is symbolic language used to describe those who live on top of society and study knowledge which is kept from those on the bottom of society. This hidden knowledge allows them to rise far above others. Within these circles, music is spoken of as one of the highest forms of language. Therefore, it is called "the language of the birds". King David was taught this language as a child. Some scriptures say he played instruments while his brothers excelled physically.

I guess the point is that music is a vibration, and everything in the universe vibrates at a resonant frequency. Wise people know how to set up a resonant frequency that is translated as "harmony", using sound. This is why music can unite people who can't even speak the same language.

I don't think this allegorical interpretation of "idle speech" as music, is correct.

"3:7. He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are decisive � they are the basis of the Book � and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge, they say: 'We believe in it, it is all from our Lord.' And none mind except men of understanding."

Thank you.

blond wrote: "I don't think this allegorical interpretation of "idle speech" as music, is correct.

Assalamu alaikum,

You are free to agree or disagree with whatever you choose, but in this case you are diasgreeing with Abd Allah ibn Mas�ud, and Abd Allah ibn Abbas, radiallahu anhumaa, both Companions of the Noble Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, as well as Hasan al-Basri, radiallahu anhu, the author of Tafsir al-Kathiir, the authoritative commentary on the Holy Qur'an.

What is rather shocking to me is that you are bold enough to invoke the Qur'anic injunction in 3:7 against three such indisputable authorities, two of whom walked with our Beloved Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, and listened to his words. Do you really feel you have enough knowledge to do this?

nadir,

I can find "fatwas" on the internet that say music is not haram.  There are as many opinions out there as people expressing them.  I feel you are being rather self righteous about this and very judgemental.  This is not a black and white, cut and dried issue, as all the varying opinions will attest to.

If you choose not to listen to music, good for you!  Please don't call those of us who do innovators and not Muslims - you have no right to judge, that is Allah's place.  Calling a Muslim, not a Muslim is a serious charge.

Take a look at these, if you wish:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=90851 - http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hF atwaID=90851

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=40116 - http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hF atwaID=40116

Perhaps you are prepared to call Ahmad Kutty and Qaradawi innovators and not Muslims?

I am getting a headache, I think I'll go listen to some soothing tunes .

Peace, ummziba (perhaps a lesser Muslim than you but a Muslim all the same)

Yusuf. wrote: blond wrote: "I don't think this allegorical interpretation of "idle speech" as music, is correct. What is rather shocking to me is that you are bold enough to invoke the Qur'anic injunction in 3:7 against three such indisputable authorities, two of whom walked with our Beloved Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, and listened to his words. Do you really feel you have enough knowledge to do this?

W.A.S.

I am no scholar. I am just a baby in Islam. I meant no offense to you or anyone else. I will always admit I am wrong, when I am shown I am in error.

In the Ayat 3:7 that I quoted, I have seen versions where the mere placement a comma changes the meaning of the Ayat.

Example: "And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding."

If you notice, the translator placed the comma in such a way as to make the reader believe that they know the thinking of Allah. This is something that no one can claim, in my perspective. Allah is the Best Knower, not you and I or anyone claiming scholarship.

Therefore, the comma should be replaced with a period.

Example: "And none knows its interpretation save Allah. And those firmly rooted in knowledge, they say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding."

And the period should be replaced with a comma.

Example: "And none knows its interpretation save Allah. And those firmly rooted in knowledge, they say: 'We believe in it, it is all from our Lord'. And none mind except men of understanding."

Again, no offense is intended. But, if the scholars want the credit for scholarship, then they must also take the blame for the condition of the divided Muslim world who follows their scholarship.

Thank you.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

Ahmad Ibn al-Naqib al-Misri in "The Reliance of the Traveller

�The basic premise of this school of thought is that the good of the acts of those morally responsible is what the Lawgiver (syn. Allah or His messenger [Allah bless him and give him peace]) has indicated is good by permitting it or asking it be done. And the bad is what the Lawgiver has indicated is bad by asking it not be done.

The good is not what reason considers good, nor the bad what reason considers bad. The measure of good and bad, according to this school of thought, is the sacred Law not reason (dis:W-3). ("Sacred Knowledge," Chapter One).�

I liked the post Yusuf, thank you, Al-Hamdulilah

It inspired me to answer my own question posted earlier (within the Unity subject), which I�d like Yusuf to correct if he thinks it to be wrong, Insha Allah.

A Muslim should submit to the Sacred Law (decreed within Islam) without having to under/overstand why!!!!! The amount of literature, contemplation, direct experience & sincerity, are only a means to achieve a greater level of submission, hence success (knowledge) is - how well one submits to Allah�s will.

One of the biggest problems facing the Muslim community is that, we all think - �I know best�, the only way to unite, once again under one ummah, is to humble ourselves, and adhere to the Sacred Law � �Allah knows best�.

Hence the above exert is beautiful when it mentions a good deed is not what we think it to be, but what the Lawgiver has deemed (syn. Allah or His messenger [Allah bless him and give him peace]) & vice versa.

Narrated Abu Huraira (may allah be pleased with him): The Prophet (SAW) said, �Leave me as I leave you, for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their Prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can.� [9:391 O.B.]

To Ummziba,

�I feel you are being rather self righteous about this and very judgemental.�

I am not insecure enough to feel that I need to justify myself (& what I know) to you. If I follow Allah�s Last Messenger (SAW), I know I am on the right path, and he definitely did not play a musical instrument, so for me there is no doubt. However you do have doubt, because the topic is unclear.  

If music was Halal - & I was to act upon the above Hadith (with regards to listening/creating music), I would be �lost in a trance of music�. I would rather submit to Allah, & be cognizant of my true surroundings here-now, than be lost in (someone else�s) time zone from the past. You may wish to listen to (the same) songs over & over again, I might prefer to look up at the sky, where a cloud has never repeated the same shape.

Narrated �Abdullah bin �Amr (may Allah be pleased with him): I heard the Prophet (SAW) saying, �Allah will not deprive you of knowledge after He has given it to you, but it will be taken away through the death of the religious learned men with their knowledge. There will remain ignorant people who, when consulted, will give verdicts according to their own opinions, whereby they will mislead others & go astray.� [9:410 O.B.]

Al-Hamdulilah

Salam,

But in many verses in the Quran Allah asks us to use our brain, our mind, to think. Thinking is always comes from "why". It's not fair if Allah asks us to use our brain and on the other hand we can not ask "why" to understand Allah's law.

If so we don't need any more Islamic scholars just follow the text that already written, it has everything, don't ask , just do it. So we will be "taqlid" (follow blindly).

This is probably why Muslim declined since 1100 because they discouraged to ask "why".

Allah knows best.

Assalamu alaikum,

No offense taken whatsoever, blond.

First of all you should be credited with such a sincere determination to understand the meaning of the Ayaats fully, within their context. This is most admirable. However, one must remember that all translations of the Holy Qur'an are merely interpretations. Only someone with sound knowledge of Arabic as it was spoken at the time of the Noble Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, should undertake this effort. I have been studying Arabic for a number of years and still do not feel comfortable enough to consider the nuances of the language.

You mention that Allah Knows Best, not the scholars, and of course I agree. However, if one's opinion varies from that of a specific scholar and one does not possess the linguistic and theological background to adequately address the issue, one should defer to the consensus of scholars who do possess these skills.

As I have learned Arabic, I have found that a number of verses in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Holy Qur'an are not precise, and in some cases other scholars have presented persuasive arguments that some of his translations are erroneous.

As you seem to be most enthusiastic about increasing your knowledge, I strongly recommend the following book:

An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic: An Elementary Grammar of the Language by Wheeler M. Thackston 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936347406/qid=1112225855/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1536555-9364135?v=glance&s=books - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936347406/qid =1112225855/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1536555-9364135?v=glance&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;s=books

This has greatly helped me learn the language of the Holy Qur'an, and Insha'Allah you will find it useful as well.

Allah Hafiz

nadir wrote: I liked the post Yusuf, thank you, Al-Hamdulilah

Walaikum assalam akhi. The "Reliance of the Traveller" is a text every Muslim should have on his/her bookshelf, and now there is a fine new translation Alhamdulillah by Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/reliance.htm#reliance - http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/reliance.htm#reliance

I'll look at your post in the other thread Insha'Allah, akhi, but I'm afraid I am woefully limited in my knowledge and most likely won't be able to offer much.

Allah Hafiz

Thank you very much for your concideration and for the book that you offered to me.

I have studied the Arabic language and read Quran daily. I am no master of the language, but Insh Allah I will become one.

Your spirit seems to be one of nuturing the growth of Muslims. That's cool.

semar wrote: Salam, But in many verses in the Quran Allah asks us to use our brain, our mind, to think. Thinking is always comes from "why". It's not fair if Allah asks us to use our brain and on the other hand we can not ask "why" to understand Allah's law. If so we don't need any more Islamic scholars just follow the text that already written, it has everything, don't ask , just do it. So we will be "taqlid" (follow blindly). This is probably why Muslim declined since 1100 because they discouraged to ask "why". Allah knows best.

Wa-Alaikum Salaam wa Rahmatullah

Semar

I agree that we should use the gifts Allah (SWT) has bestowed upon us, otherwise He would not have given us those attributes (He would have given us wings, if He wanted us to fly).

My point is that I am looking at �the big picture�, this forum is a public place, and hence any one (Muslim or non-Muslim) may pass through (casually or otherwise).

It is upon this premise that I state � submit to the best of your ability (closest to the ways of the Qur�an & Prophet�s [SAW] Sunnah), now, as currently we do not have the attributes to be able to question Allah�s (SWT) will (ie His Messenger [SAW]). The questions/doubts we may have about �clear or unclear� areas, will, Insha Allah, be explained within time.

So yes I agree, it strengthens one�s faith to actually know why we are required to perform/refrain from certain acts, however if you are truly sincere in your belief, you will submit now, & trust Allah (SWT) will calm one�s heart, with regards to our incessant - needing to know why? Because I might know better!    

It is not my intention to judge any as non-Muslim, rather I am thinking of the example we are setting for all whom are brought to view �us�.

Al-Hamdulilah

"7:11. And We indeed created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make submission to Adam. So they submitted, except Iblis; he was not of those who submitted."

This has been a sore spot for many in Islam, because we make submission to none but Allah. Who is the "We", since Allah has no parnters? The Arabic name used is not Adam, it is Khalifa. The meaning of Khalifa is "one who takes the place of another who has died". That definition opens up a whole world of debate, because Allah never dies.

My point is, Adam was a man whom Allah named Khalifa. Is Adam the potential of all of humanity? If so, we all have the potential to become Khalifa and wield great power over creation from Allah.

We cannot grow without the ability to respectfully question our Creator.

blond wrote: "7:11. And We indeed created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make submission to Adam. So they submitted, except Iblis; he was not of those who submitted." This has been a sore spot for many in Islam, because we make submission to none but Allah. Who is the "We", since Allah has no parnters?

Assalamu alaikum,

It is the royal "we," which is a very common  device in many languages, including English. The English kings/queens regularly referred to themselves as "we," as in the phrase "we are not amused."

In the Holy Qur'an, it is used for rhetorical purposes. "We" is used to imply distance between Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and His servants. "I" is used when Allah's closeness to His servants is emphasized. An excellent example of the use of this device in the Holy Qur'an can be found in Sura Ta Ha, where "we" ("nah.nu") is used to decribe Allah's acts, but "I" ("ana") is used when Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, speaks to Musa, alaihi salam.

Yusuf. wrote: blond wrote: "7:11. And We indeed created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make submission to Adam. So they submitted, except Iblis; he was not of those who submitted." This has been a sore spot for many in Islam, because we make submission to none but Allah. Who is the "We", since Allah has no parnters? Assalamu alaikum, It is the royal "we," which is a very common  device in many languages, including English. The English kings/queens regularly referred to themselves as "we," as in the phrase "we are not amused." In the Holy Qur'an, it is used for rhetorical purposes. "We" is used to imply distance between Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and His servants.

W.A.S.

With all due respect to you, When the personal pronoun "We" (referring to Allah) is used, it is BEFORE Adam's creation. How could Allah display nearness to HIS servants, or their works before they existed, by calling Himself "We"? That does not make sense to me.

"We" can't take credit for "Our" creation, before "We" were born.

Who, then, is the "We" referring to?

Also, "And We indeed created you, then We fashioned you", and then, in the middle of the sentence, Allah speaks in the past tense of Adam, "then We said to the angels: Make submission to Adam." as though Allah is calling us Adam. The angels were ordered to make submission to Adam and all submitted, except for Iblis.

This is facinating to me. I love language and I sincerely want to know Allah's meaning of His Book. So, I study every word.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

Dear blond, 

Narrated Anas bin Malik (may Allah be pleased with him); Allah's Messenger (SAW) said, "People will not stop asking questions till they say, This is Allah, the Creator of everything, then who created Allah?� [9:399 O.B.]

Please do not think my quoting this Hadith is a means to dodge your issue, I would love to give you an answer from my own interpretation of the matter, but I am going to first see if Yusuf knows of an article on the matter (by a scholar/learned man), that we may read?

Wa-Salaam

nadir wrote: As-Salaamu Alaikum Dear blond,  Narrated Anas bin Malik (may Allah be pleased with him); Allah's Messenger (SAW) said, "People will not stop asking questions till they say, This is Allah, the Creator of everything, then who created Allah?� [9:399 O.B.] Please do not think my quoting this Hadith is a means to dodge your issue, I would love to give you an answer from my own interpretation of the matter, but I am going to first see if Yusuf knows of an article on the matter (by a scholar/learned man), that we may read? Wa-Salaam nadir

Yessir.

"4:153. The People of the Book ask thee to bring down to them a Book from heaven; indeed they demanded of Moses a greater thing than that, for they said: Show us Allah manifestly. So destructive punishment overtook them on account of their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this. And We gave Moses clear authority."

I understand your point of view. But, that evil intent is not in my heart.

I want to be the full manifestation of what I am created to be, to serve the full purpose for my creation. This is the reason for my perspective on study and accuracy.

Thank you.

blond wrote: Yusuf. wrote: blond wrote: "7:11. And We indeed created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make submission to Adam. So they submitted, except Iblis; he was not of those who submitted." This has been a sore spot for many in Islam, because we make submission to none but Allah. Who is the "We", since Allah has no parnters? Assalamu alaikum, It is the royal "we," which is a very common  device in many languages, including English. The English kings/queens regularly referred to themselves as "we," as in the phrase "we are not amused." In the Holy Qur'an, it is used for rhetorical purposes. "We" is used to imply distance between Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and His servants. W.A.S. With all due respect to you, When the personal pronoun "We" (referring to Allah) is used, it is BEFORE Adam's creation. How could Allah display nearness to HIS servants, or their works before they existed, by calling Himself "We"? That does not make sense to me.

Assalamu alaikum,

I'm a bit busy till evening, but briefly: in the passage you quote, Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, is addressing the angels. Throughout the Holy Qur'an, "We" is used by Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, in His relationship to the angels. Thus, the usage is both consistent and logical, since the angels are also servants, but since they lack the knowledge man possesses, they cannot have the intimate relationship with Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, that man can have Insha'Allah.

Allah 'Alim

Yusuf. wrote: [QUOTE=blond][QUOTE=Yusuf.][QUOTE=blond] Assalamu alaikum, I'm a bit busy till evening, but briefly: in the passage you quote, Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, is addressing the angels. Throughout the Holy Qur'an, "We" is used by Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, in His relationship to the angels. Thus, the usage is both consistent and logical, since the angels are also servants, but since they lack the knowledge man possesses, they cannot have the intimate relationship with Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, that man can have Insha'Allah. Allah 'Alim

But if "We" created Adam, then Adam would make submission to "Us".  But to the contrary, the angels were ordered to make submission to Adam. So I don't agree that the "We" here is referring to Allah and the angels. According to what we read, the angels did not create Adam, they bowed to him at the order of Allah.

I hope you don't feel I am being a "smart alec" by pointing this out, and I hope you are offended. I am just pointing out what my study has manifested and I am striving to learn more.

Thank you.

Has anyone actually listened to Yusuf Islam's interview on Radio five live?

the link is available here....

http://www.mobile786.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17 - http://www.mobile786.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17

blond wrote: Yusuf. wrote: [QUOTE=blond][QUOTE=Yusuf.][QUOTE=blond] Assalamu alaikum, I'm a bit busy till evening, but briefly: in the passage you quote, Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, is addressing the angels. Throughout the Holy Qur'an, "We" is used by Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, in His relationship to the angels. Thus, the usage is both consistent and logical, since the angels are also servants, but since they lack the knowledge man possesses, they cannot have the intimate relationship with Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, that man can have Insha'Allah. Allah 'Alim But if "We" created Adam, then Adam would make submission to "Us".  But to the contrary, the angels were ordered to make submission to Adam. So I don't agree that the "We" here is referring to Allah and the angels. According to what we read, the angels did not create Adam, they bowed to him at the order of Allah. I hope you don't feel I am being a "smart alec" by pointing this out, and I hope you are offended. I am just pointing out what my study has manifested and I am striving to learn more. Thank you.

Assalamu alaikum,

I guess i wasn't very clear. The "we" is the royal "we" indicating distance between Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and his servants, in this instance the angels. But the "we" refers to Allah Alone, subhanahu wa ta'ala.

Yusuf. wrote: blond wrote: Yusuf. wrote: [QUOTE=blond][QUOTE=Yusuf.][QUOTE=blond] Assalamu alaikum, I'm a bit busy till evening, but briefly: in the passage you quote, Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, is addressing the angels. Throughout the Holy Qur'an, "We" is used by Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, in His relationship to the angels. Thus, the usage is both consistent and logical, since the angels are also servants, but since they lack the knowledge man possesses, they cannot have the intimate relationship with Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, that man can have Insha'Allah. Allah 'Alim But if "We" created Adam, then Adam would make submission to "Us".  But to the contrary, the angels were ordered to make submission to Adam. So I don't agree that the "We" here is referring to Allah and the angels. According to what we read, the angels did not create Adam, they bowed to him at the order of Allah. I hope you don't feel I am being a "smart alec" by pointing this out, and I hope you are offended. I am just pointing out what my study has manifested and I am striving to learn more. Thank you. Assalamu alaikum, I guess i wasn't very clear. The "we" is the royal "we" indicating distance between Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and his servants, in this instance the angels. But the "we" refers to Allah Alone, subhanahu wa ta'ala.

Since Allah knows best the precise language of Arabic in which He revealed the Quran, why use "We", when He really means "I"; why use "Us" when He really mean "Me". This royal "We" is Allah, and Allah is not confused over the identity of the "We".

I am not confused on the subject, but I really want to encourage discussion on the subject.

Blond,

Perhaps you should open a new thread on the topic of Allah's pronouns in the Qur'an if you would like to explore this more as we are getting rather off topic!

I'll just put in my two cents.  It is my understanding that Allah is undefinable to the human mind.  It is also my understanding that perhaps Allah uses various pronouns (we, us, etc.) to emphasize that we cannot fathom our Sustainer at all.  If only 'he' or 'I' were used we might form a picture of a "male person", which would not be correct.  Allah is beyond our comprehension and the varied pronouns just support that idea.  (*Perhaps pronoun is not the correct term!!!?)

Apologies to Islamhussain for getting off your topic!

Peace, ummziba.

Thank you.

blond wrote: Since Allah knows best the precise language of Arabic in which He revealed the Quran, why use "We", when He really means "I"; why use "Us" when He really mean "Me". This royal "We" is Allah, and Allah is not confused over the identity of the "We". I am not confused on the subject, but I really want to encourage discussion on the subject.

Assalamu alaikum,

because the royal "we" is in fact an acceptable, widely used and, with all due respect, universally understood literary device that really poses no serious problems. The fact that many westerners do not understand this device is the result of the lack of proper education in the field of rhetoric. Anyone who has read the seminal works of English literature would automatically understand this device, as I did when I first read a translation of the Holy Qur'an.

I am constantly shocked at the low level of understanding of English, their native language, demonstrated by young people in college. The pathetic state of affairs in western education should not be used to criticize the majestic style of the Holy Qur'an, whose clarity in this matter is unquestionable.

I will not be saying any more on this subject.

Yusuf. wrote: blond wrote: Since Allah knows best the precise language of Arabic in which He revealed the Quran, why use "We", when He really means "I"; why use "Us" when He really mean "Me". This royal "We" is Allah, and Allah is not confused over the identity of the "We". I am not confused on the subject, but I really want to encourage discussion on the subject. Assalamu alaikum, because the royal "we" is in fact an acceptable, widely used and, with all due respect, universally understood literary device that really poses no serious problems. The fact that many westerners do not understand this device is the result of the lack of proper education in the field of rhetoric. Anyone who has read the seminal works of English literature would automatically understand this device, as I did when I first read a translation of the Holy Qur'an. I am constantly shocked at the low level of understanding of English, their native language, demonstrated by young people in college. The pathetic state of affairs in western education should not be used to criticize the majestic style of the Holy Qur'an, whose clarity in this matter is unquestionable. I will not be saying any more on this subject.

Thank you.

Your comment sounds as though you have distain for those who you feel do not know as much as you do. I could be incorrect, but that is the perception that is conveyed.

This is a character defect that you will need to correct, to be truly effective at teaching any subject.

I apologize for frustrating you.

blond wrote: Thank you. Your comment sounds as though you have distain for those who you feel do not know as much as you do. I could be incorrect, but that is the perception that is conveyed. This is a character defect that you will need to correct, to be truly effective at teaching any subject. I apologize for frustrating you.

Assalamu alaikum

I have disdain, and contempt, for the educational system of the west, which produces individuals who are only semi-literate in their own language. The people themselves are not to blame, of course.

And I have many, many character defects to correct!!!!!

As Salamu Alaikum

Insha Allah going back to the topic I found this Fatwa from Islam Q and A