I grew up reading these books years ago.  I could never have imagined them as clearly as the movies.  I was eager to see the movies, and I liked them because they were something I was familiar with, I guess.

Now, I noticed something after awhile, which amazes me as to how blind I was before.  How could I not have seen it? All the good guys are white, and all the bad guys are black.  There are no good-guy humans, hobbits, elves or dwarves who are black.  The dwarves are swarthy, and the least well-mannered of the good guys.  (I don't think the tree-people, Ents, count though they are dark brown.)  What do you think?

Assalamu alaikum,

Ah, herjihad, glad you see it too!  I think, however, it (the books themselves) can be blamed on the fact that the author J.R.R. Tolkien grew up in such times (you know, before people of colour were considered human beings by the British).

As for the movies, I can only come to the conclusion that Peter Jackson must be a racist.  What other conclusion is there?

Myself, I think he missed the boat in not casting Morgan Freeman as Gandalf - I think he would have been supurb in that role!  The movies certainly would have been more true to life and more palatable had there been some hobbits, elves and men of colour.  Sad........

Peace, ummziba.

Assalam alaikum,

As for your comment ak_m_f, I don't recall any story where a prophet was turned black....

I think you mean, were there ever any black prophets?

Of the prophets mentioned in the Qur'an, most are from the Middle East and environs, so they would have all been, at the very least, brown (or darker).  As for the hundreds of prophets not mentioned in the Qur'an - Allahu alam!

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: As for the movies, I can only come to the conclusion that Peter Jackson must be a racist.  What other conclusion is there?

oh maybe Peter was reflecting the book, afterall the movie is the moving adaption of the books, it is Tolkins' creation Not Peter Jackson's!   

Myself, I think he missed the boat in not casting Morgan Freeman as Gandalf - I think he would have been supurb in that role!  The movies certainly would have been more true to life and more palatable had there been some hobbits, elves and men of colour.  Sad........ Peace, ummziba.

It's just a fantasy story!

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Herjihad wrote: Now, I noticed something after awhile, which amazes me as to how blind I was before.  How could I not have seen it? All the good guys are white, and all the bad guys are black.  There are no good-guy humans, hobbits, elves or dwarves who are black.  The dwarves are swarthy, and the least well-mannered of the good guys.  (I don't think the tree-people, Ents, count though they are dark brown.)  What do you think?

I dont get it, why r u blaming Lord of the Rings only?

Isnt that the truth, all the good looking-handsome men are Hero in each and every film?

Ohk, if my memory serves me right then Saruman-or whatever his name-who was friend of wizard gandalf, is shown white.(he is a villian, agree?)

Regards,Dayem.

Bismillah,

That's true.  He was a good guy gone bad.  Of course, one of the heros could have been cast as a handsome black or chinese man.  One of the groups of people could also have been cast as a different race than white.  But they weren't. 

I just know that I liked the books and movies as a classic struggle of good against evil.  I just don't like the feeling that the good has to be white and the evil mostly black.  It's just a feeling I got after watching the movies, and after quite a while after I had seen them.  Of course, the Nation of Islam would have to cast the colors of the characters opposite, wouldn't they, since they believe white people are created by the devil?

I'm just thinking outloud.  So you don't see that at all, Dayem?

They were orcs, kk, but just before the final battle, the bad-guys, some of which are human, are shown to be brown.

And let us face it-black person in a movie usually represnt a villian.How many movies have u seen where white guy is bad and black one the Hero?

Regards,Dayem.

And let us face it-black person in a movie usually represent a villain.How many movies have u seen where white guy is bad and black one the Hero?

Wesley snipes in passenger 56,Wesley snipes in all the blade movies.will smith in willed wild west. will smith in the bad Boy movies.Danny glover in all the lethal weapon movies. matron Lawrence in the bad Boyz movies too. martin Lawrence in the black knight.Daniel Washington in virtuosity.Danzel Washington in man on fire.Danzel Washington in crimson tide. Morgan freeman in kiss the girls.oh and don't forget Samuel l. Jackson.played mace windu in the star war movies......lots of movies with black good guys white bad guys.what irks me is the token black guy every director feels they have to put in to keep from being called a racist.a black guy in robin hood?I'm sure Washington had lots of blacks fighting in the colonial army.same with Cornwallis in the patriot it was the 1780's blacks weren't looked at as equals then why lie?oh and U-571 now the US didn't integrate blacks and whites into the military until the 50's so if a German u boat did sink off our coast in WWII and we sent divers to try to retrieve it.how did a black guy get tapped to go?black and white were separate then.even south park has noticed this trend.theres only 1 black kid in all of south park his name?"Token" 

Bismillah,

Saruman misled the otherwise "good" white guys.  But there weren't any tribes of good black, yellow, or red people at all.  This was just something I noticed in this major film series.  People say that this series was meant to depict the wars going on at the time.  If that is so, why aren't there any "tribe's like I mentioned".

People say that this series was meant to depict the wars going on at the time.  If that is so, why aren't there any "tribe's like I mentioned".

good point! the lord of the rings was written in 1939.the war of that time was WWII.mostly whites vs whites in europe that is.

Okay, I am going to pipe in here to defend pour Peter Jackson. 

When JRR Tolkein wrote the Lord of the Rings, he was doing so because England had no epics like exist in other cultures.  He also based many of the events and concepts in LotR from an ancient Finnish writing called the Kalevala.  Now, I'm pretty sure when the Kalevala was writing most Fins had never seen a black man.  Elvish in the books also based from Scandinavian languages and dwarves are also a legend originating from Northern Europe. 

As for Black vs White.....in many cultures Black is evil and White is good, symbolizing a purity....Why do Muslims not where their black clothing on the Hajj???

In India, Kali is often painted black, she is Death and destruction, but Durga is painted White, she is birth and courage. 

The Yin and Yang symbol from Asia is also Black and White.  Yin is the the man, and the Sun....forces of good, Yang is the woman and darkness...sometimes associated with evil.

Often symbolism is used to make it easier for the viewer to pick out the bad guy.  In Sci Fi movies, often the Evil Overlords soldiers are in psuedo Nazi uniforms....but there were other militaries prior to WWII that had similar uniforms. 

I think sometimes we fall too much into the trap of trying to read into things that just aren't there.  Tolkien died before Civil Rights and Multiculturalism were talked about and pushed.  Its probably more of a simple answer of European culture and lack of knowledge or attention to any possible inferences outside of the intended.

Saruman the White is a villian in LotR's, but he is always in White.  This is to show the power of his Magic and that he is not Human.  Gandalf the Gray is a hero and becomes Gandalf the White when he rises in rank as a wizard and transforms into a higher being.

As you notice characters like Aragorn and Legolas are clad in green, this is to represent their ties with nature.  Bright white is a symbol of purity and power, but not in a racist sense of the word. 

We really have to becareful in these days of hightened sensitivities on race and religion to avoid seeing things that aren't really there.  I am a Mormon, we are a people that proselyte....but that doesn't mean my responses to forums are with the intention of converstion.  They are with a sincere wish to share and learn.  I don't like rap or R&B, does that make me racists?  Especially here in the US, labels are often a double edged sword.  Everyone wants to belong to something special...they claim to be Irish on St Patrick's day, or Native American or Russian, even when born in the US.  Truth be told, each of these were a bad thing at a point in time, but not always.  So, what will things be like in 50 years.  Will it be vogue to be from the Middle East, or to be able to trace your roots to a survivor of Katrina or the Tsunami? 

Needless to say, I focus less on things that give the wrong impression and focus more on the things that teach the right thing.  LotR is about battling opression and evil.  Its about Good people coming together to defeat evil, together.  And if you notice, only together do they prevail.  Divided, they lose.

Bismillah,

And poor Gollum/Smeagle saved the world, and nobody said thank you. There was that song they wrote.

Well, Angela, I'll take your point of good sticking together against evil as the most vital thing about the movie.  My thoughts on the unblackness of the good cultures in the film still allow me to focus on one of the important issues that it raised in my mind:  How I look at things changes with time and perspective, and it's important not to exclude cultures and colors in our struggle to defeat evil.

The symbolism of white, black, good and evil is a subject I have pondered for this very reason.  Allah, SWT, uses this device to communicate to us in the Quran.  Maybe that emphasizes its symbolic nature in an effort to make us understand the really difficult ideas.  So symbolism is not reality, I'm pretty sure, but reality is influenced by symbolism when people take it literally as, for example, the American slavers did to justify their abuse of the Africans they abducted.

Did Tolkien mean to present his ideas as an exclusion of people of color depicted in good ways?  I didn't think about his intentions, nor those of Pete, just the effect this absence had on me as an individual.  And I was wondering if anyone else here had felt this at all. (I see that you didn't, and that's my answer on that!)

What colour are elves really?

Tolkien wrote the hobbits to reflect the the 'British Tommy' the ordinary soldiers, the little man who gets on with the struggle and triumphs over adversity when all the lords etc are doing other important things.

I thought Sam was the hero - his unswerving loyalty kept his 'mate' 'pal' 'buddy' going even when despairer was setting in.

Orks were the Nazi SS battalions and tank regiments = Black uniforms (maybe) kenski70 to advise?

Did anybody know that Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were good friends ?

I didn't know that until watching some doco on C.S. Lewis a few weeks back 

What about the use Jeffrey Hunter, a man with blue eyes and blond hair, in the movie "King of Kings' as Jesus Christ? Where lies the 'closeness to reality' in that?

Surprisingly, this picture is becoming a worldwide new of Christ!

Angel wrote: Did anybody know that Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were good friends ? I didn't know that until watching some doco on C.S. Lewis a few weeks back

I did knew that, sorry for replying late.When Lewis thought of writing books for childrens, he was discouraged by many people including tolkien.Fortunately, he didnt heed his advice and went on to write 'Chronicles of Narnia'.Its a cool story...though I dont understand something-was he writing these story after being influenced by paganism or christanity?

Who cares anyway...the stuff was good enough...