ISIS: How can Muslim Religious Leaders Stop It
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URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31353
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Topic: ISIS: How can Muslim Religious Leaders Stop It
Posted By: MarieAvex
Subject: ISIS: How can Muslim Religious Leaders Stop It
Date Posted: 05 September 2014 at 9:36am
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Hello, I am writing a think piece about what Muslim religious leaders can do at a local, national, and international level to counter the message and work of ISIS. I welcome any thoughts of people reading this. What sorts of powers do Muslim religious leaders have to issue writings, fatwas, public opinions, etc. which could relate to this topic? How influential can they be and what could maximize that influence? I'm looking for ways the community of religious leaders in Islam can find non-violent but effective ways to deter ISIS.
Thank you, Marie |
Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 6:23am
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Unfortunately Muslims at any level will NOT speak out against fellow Muslims even if they are willing to kill ALL mankind with nuclear weapons. Even if they are killing fellow Muslims.
I'm dumbfounded too. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 8:58am
| MarieAvex, hello and welcome. Muslims must stop with the mantra that ISIS/ISIL, and their ilk, are not Muslims. Indeed they are Muslims, and this ideological battle will require thoughtful argument and debate. Muslims must form the frontline in knowing, and recognizing the "narrative" of ISIS types, and be prepared with a deliberate response when necessary. I have a great deal of optimism in Islam's ability to win the war of ideas against ISIS, however I'm less hopeful the disastrous politics for the region will make our job easy. |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 2:42pm
The Muslim countries surrounding ISIS are all cowards. They will gladly fight this war to the last American. When was the last time the Arabs had any success in a war? Saladin? Wait, he was a Kurd, not an Arab. Even with overwhelming forces, the Arabs couldn't defeat Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, etc. Pathetic. Maybe Allah is trying to tell the Muslims something? |
abuayisha wrote:Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 3:49pm
Greetings marcello, I don't think hurtful words are the answer. asalaam, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 11:25pm
| http://www.scpr.org/news/2014/09/02/46408/la-muslim-group-seeks-to-identify-troubled-youth-a/ |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 17 September 2014 at 7:47am
| http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/Top-Saudi-clerics-issue-edict-against-terrorism-5761417.php |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 18 September 2014 at 9:18am
Hi Caringheart, I'm sorry that you find the truth to be hurtful. Do you find my post more hurtful than the holy Quran? Just a few excerpts from that manual of intolerance: Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90 Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61 Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66 Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. 2:191 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118 "Those [Christians and Jews] are they whom Allah hath cursed." 4:52 Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 4:56 |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 September 2014 at 11:08am
Marcello, What you find anything wrong with those verses you quoted from the Qur'an? If you constantly sin then you must face the consequences. Btw just a reminder, you and all the other non Muslims on this forum will receive a double portion of the punishment and be in the lowest depths of hell because you came to know the Truth but still rejected it. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 18 September 2014 at 7:36pm
What is sad that there are so many evil people in the world who take comfort in those verses and use them as justification for the murder of those who do not believe in that garbage.
I'll take my chances, since neither you (nor anyone else) can demonstrate that your Allah or your hell (or your paradise) even exist. If your beliefs in the existence of these magical, invisible entities give you comfort, so be it. But unfortunately a large number of your co-religionists continue to use those beliefs to persecute those who don't share such fantasies. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 19 September 2014 at 7:04am
I agree. There are some twisted people about calling themselves Muslims when they are not. Wearing beards and 'Muslim attire' does not make one a Muslim. They will be judged as will you and I. These people have hijacked the beautiful religion of Islam and the world now thinks they are the true Muslims. However, if put in perspective they are only about ten thousand or so out of over a billion. It's a real shame that people generally and you in particular do not look into the real Islam which is the only religion acceptable to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.
Believe me Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala hell and paradise really do exist. Of course I can't prove it. One has to believe. It's all about faith. I suppose if I told you that the Qur'an is proof positive of the existence of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala you wouldn't believe me would you? ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 19 September 2014 at 7:56am
A "religion" predicated on the hateful, violent, intolerant garbage strewn throughout the Quran can hardly be called "beautiful". It ironic that this so-called "beautiful" religion incites so many of its adherents to call each other "un-Islamic" and then persecute and murder each other on that basis. The U.S. and its Western allies should clear out of the Middle East and let the Sunnis and Shiites fight it out to determine who the "true" Muslims are.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, which is sorely lacking for "Allah", "hell", and "paradise". There is far more evidence for the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Tooth Fairy than there is for "Allah". |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 19 September 2014 at 8:06am
It is no coincidence that the average educational level is astonishingly low for those who find the Quran to be "proof positive". As of just a few years ago: "Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758. . . . Of the 1.4 billion Muslims, 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read)." |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 September 2014 at 8:15am
If I were a Muslim I would shave off the beard and wear "normal" modern clothing. Muhammad only commanded his followers to have a beard in order to distinguish them from the polytheists at the time. That is no longer an issue; whereas these days it is far more important for Muslims to distinguish themselves from the terrorists. People see Middle Eastern men with beards and traditional Islamic attire and they think "terrorist". I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 September 2014 at 8:17am
Where did you get those numbers, marcello? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 19 September 2014 at 12:00pm
Is education important? That is open to debate. For true believers it is more important towards working to earn the right to live forever with the Creator than earning a phd. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 September 2014 at 12:41pm
The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms�which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. - St. Thomas Aquinas It is easy to sway a people who listen and do not read or exercise their own powers of mind. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 21 September 2014 at 6:05pm
LACK of education is important to the true believers. The more one understands about the real world the less one needs to believe in magical, invisible spirits. Statistically, a population's level of education is inversely correlated with religiosity. Why do you think the Taliban likes to blow up schools? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 September 2014 at 8:26am
Education is NOT important in the grand scheme of things but earning the pleasure of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'laa IS important. It is proof positive that educated people only turn away arrogantly from the Words of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as if they know MORE than the Creator. By the way do you have problems with people who believe in invisible spirits or even people who have different beliefs than yourself? ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 22 September 2014 at 1:36pm
I feel sorry for people who believe in invisible spirits. I feel sorry that they are so ignorant and uneducated and that their lives are so pathetic that they feel the need to believe in such nonsense. But, in contrast to the mandates of the Quran (see, e.g., 9:5), and in contrast to the practices of many of your co-religionists, I do not think that people who believe differently should be killed. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 September 2014 at 1:51pm
Feeling sorry is one thing but do you feel that they should STOP believe or are you against people who do?
Agreed. The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Sallam) never EVER killed a Jew or a Christian for the fun of it. Otherwise all the Jews and Christians in the Middle East after the victory of Mecca would have been annihilated. I do agree that there are people nowadays who are calling themselves Muslims who are killing innocent people for fun. But rest assured they will WILL be judged. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 2:04am
Today I am visiting an endodontist (a specialist in dentistry) to have a tooth fixed. It never even occurred to me to ask whether he has "earned the pleasure of Allah", but I am grateful that he is a highly educated person. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 5:04am
If you have a toothache then just pull out the teeth which gives you pain. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 8:42am
Thanks, that's a much better idea.  Is there a hadith that gives a formula for a local anesthetic, and instructions for how to administer it before extracting a tooth?------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 9:02am
No but there is a Hadith which says that stoopid people will go to HELL. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 1:36pm
I think it is much better to keep our teeth when we can. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 5:59am
Seventh century thinking == Seventh century dentistry. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 6:04am
If being educated and earning a phd means NOT believing in God Almighty then no thanks. However, if on the other hand, I can live in a valley without any mod cons and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala provides for me and I can please Him by praying, giving in charity etc then YES. The trouble with people with phd's is that they are arrogant people and they think they know better than the Creator. Case in point, ALL of you non Muslims on this forum. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 7:00am
Greetings Abu-Loren, All of us 'non-muslims' don't 'think we know better than the Creator'... just some of us don't believe what others follow is from the Creator.  case in point: "All Sufi's I know are the most wonderful, friendly and kind people on earth, however if they err then it is our duty to put them in the right direction In Shaa Allah. " How can someone you can say this about, be 'in a wrong direction'? According the the words of Yshwe Himself: 'Ye will know them by their fruit. Can a bad tree produce good fruit?' (recorded in the book of Matthew) Obviously the sufi tree is not all bad, since it is producing good fruit. I'd have to say that most 'religious trees' produce some good and some bad fruit... maybe it depends on how the tree is grown, or where it is grown, or which one you grow on... either way, we must "know them by their fruit" if it is a good fruit, it must come from a good tree. I agree with you though, that education should never preclude devotion to a higher power... the acknowledgement that there is something higher than ourselves... a Creator with all Wisdom. The Biblical scriptures warn us also; 'in their wisdom they became fools' If we educate but leave out God, we are fools... but to not educate can also deny people knowing the true God. asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 2:31pm
Yes indeed. I still don't know which tree you belong to. Actually the bad tree is Christianity because it goes against God Almighty by attributing equality to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam). Obviously the sufi tree is not all bad, since it is producing good fruit.� [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />I'd have to say that most 'religious trees' produce some good and some bad fruit... maybe it depends on how the tree is grown, or where it is grown, or which one you grow on...either way, we must "know them by their fruit"if it is a good fruit, it must come from a good tree.� [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />I agree with you though, that education should never preclude devotion to a higher power... the acknowledgement that there is something higher than ourselves... a Creator with all Wisdom.The Biblical scriptures warn us also;'in their wisdom they became fools'If we educate but leave out God, we are fools... but to not educate can also deny people knowing the true God.asalaam,CH [/QUOTE] ................................ ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 3:56pm
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Greetings Abu Loren, It is not accurate to say there are no good Christians... or that no good thing comes from Christianity. Can you really consider that an accurate statement? No. If you are honest you can not. Christianity produces much good fruit... they have contributed the most to charity, education, medical provision, and other assistance for the less fortunate of the world. Christianity has produced much good fruit. Yes, it has also produced some bad fruit... as I said... I believe you will find this true of all religion... if you are honest. asalaam, CH According to Yshwe Himself... 'Ye will know those that are mine by their fruit' It is not about which religion... it is about what good you bring to the world... as an individual. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 11:22pm
Yes indeed there are good Christians and good atheists etc but all of your deeds are worthless as you do NOT appraise God Almighty with a good appraisal. All of your good deeds are only worth it if you go about living your life the way He wants you to live the life, according to His rules and laws. Otherwise you are all living this life life like cattle, deaf ,dumb and blind. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 11:55am
Greetings Abu Loren, How can you say that 'they are worthless' if they contribute to the good of mankind... to the good of creation? Do you really believe the Creator places no value on people that contribute to the good of His creation? What is the purpose of the Creator giving His guidance if not to guide us to contribute to the good of His creation?
Precisely, what qualifies as, "living your life the way He wants you to live the life, according to His rules and laws" I believe that the Creator will view any behavior that supports the good of His creation, as living the way that He wants us to live. I believe His guidance is only to guide us to do this good... to live in a way that is good and supportive to His creation... a way that preserves what He has created. ... and that means to not fight with one another, but to care for one another in Love, bringing all people together in caring and loving one another, and through Love, to the way of life God has designed for us. asalaam, CH 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. If one loves God first, then he will love all others second... before self. This is why God requires Love of Him first, above all else.... it is the only way we find the way to love others before self. This is the Truth of God, al-Lah, Creator. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Katana
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 7:38am
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I came here to just be a fly on the wall and get a better understanding of how muslims feel about what is happening in the world in the name of their religion and i gotta say... Abu Loren, you scare me. I dont mean to be disrespectful to anyone here but i'm curious as to why the "marcello" person poses some interesting thoughts or questions and this thread has over a thousand views but only 1-2 people seem to want to try and answer him.
I know nothing of Islam...all i know is what i see in the news. So i come here to try and see what the everyday muslim feels and thinks about current events and the first one I come across is "Abu Loren" and i honestly can see no difference. Unfortunately i am getting a very bad opinion of Islam and so are other folks so why is it that all these "bad muslims" doing all these horrible things....where are all the "good muslims, doing great things?" |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 29 September 2014 at 1:40pm
Are there any examples in recent history of an "Islamic State" that one could argue is "well governed"? Where one would actually prefer to live instead of, say, in the U.S., Canada, or Western Europe? (I note that Abu Loren is in the UK.) |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 September 2014 at 3:12pm
The trouble with (some) religious people is that they are arrogant and they think they know better than people with PhDs.  Nobody has a direct line to God. You can believe whatever you like, but it's still just a belief. It is the arrogant assumption that (some) religious people think they can speak (and therefore act, and sometimes kill) on behalf of God that justifies and nurtures groups like ISIS. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 September 2014 at 3:57pm
In fairness, what do you want Muslims to say in response? Abu Loren already gave what I thought was an excellent answer to the opening post, saying he is " http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31353&PID=189798#189798 - dumbfounded " by groups like ISIS and by the apparent unwillingness of mainstream Muslims to actively resist them. And http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31353&PID=189801#189801 - abuayisha echoed that sentiment in saying that Muslims cannot pretend it is not their problem. That said, I have to add that I have been disappointed several times on this forum with the fatalism and lack of interest of Muslims here to join the "war of ideas", as abuayisha called it. I made a couple of attempts to encourage them to get involved in the big bad world of mainstream Internet discussion forums, letters to editors, reader comments sections of the media, etc., but there was absolutely no interest in that. My only replies were variations on "it's too hard" and "why should we care?" I am by no means suggesting that anybody should post comments elsewhere instead of IslamiCity. On the contrary, places like IslamiCity could be a central point for coordination of other Internet activity. People could report cases here of Islamophobia or false claims about Islam in the media, etc., and a number of "IslamiCitizens" could be dispatched to provide more balanced and accurate information. And then a "most mortem" could be conducted to see whether the responses were effective, how they could have been improved, etc. If enough Muslims cared enough about defending their religion, I believe an "Internet jihad" could make a positive difference. Unfortunately, it seems like most folks here seem to prefer their cozy little "echo chamber" of fellow Muslims.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 September 2014 at 7:08pm
Here's a refreshing development:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/united-against-terrorism-handbook-released-at-winnipeg-mosque-1.2781062 - Posted: Sep 29, 2014 9:21 AM CT ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 5:22am
What you should be scared of is not me but the thought of spending eternity in hell fire. It's really simple to save yourself all you have to do is truly believe in your heart that there is only One God and that Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is His final messenger to mankind. Then once you are convinced utter the Shahada which is "Ashadu anla Ilaha Illallah wa Ashadhu anna Muhammadan abduhu rasooluhu". Where would you like to spend eternity in the next life? Heaven of hell? A very simple question really. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 September 2014 at 8:11am
 Sure, simple."I can't believe that!" said Alice. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 4:03pm
Greetings Katana, I can echo your sentiments, because I also, sought forums where I could talk to muslims, looking to dispel my concerns and not wanting to rely only on the things I would find in the media, and I also did not come to insult anyone, (though I have received many insults) and I have, sorry to say, come to feel that islam breeds hatred. It is my hope through conversation with one another that that hatred and mistrust, and prejudice, may be overcome and be dispelled. This is a good thing that the internet can allow us to do in the name of the Creator who surely would not want to see the creation destroy itself. We do not have to rely on what our leaders tell us... we are able to talk to one another and judge for ourselves. Peace and blessings to you, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 03 October 2014 at 6:58pm
That's not exactly correct. Islam is based on hatred. Violent intolerance of "others" (specifically Christians, Jews, and unbelievers) is explicitly mandated in the holy Quran. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 October 2014 at 7:52pm
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Greetings marcello, I don't take this same view as you. It seems quite likely that islam sprang from Muhammad's sincere desire to unite people under one God... but I do not believe he was rightly guided... i.e., not a prophet, though he may have been made to believe that he was. Knowing the teachings of the Jews and the Christians I believe he began with a true intent to unite the arab people in similar fashion. He may have begun with a message of caring for, and respecting one another, thinking that the others would most naturally be led to believe in, and join with, him... but when this did not happen, he began to change his tune... he began to take a tactic not of 'let us all come together' but one of 'you are wrong'... he began to teach against others rather than teaching for what he believed. It is this that breeds the hatred. Teaching a negative, rather than a positive message... labeling whole groups of people rather than respecting the individual. ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 06 October 2014 at 2:58pm
Hi Caringheart, I agree that your characterization of the evolution of Muhammed's teachings may well be correct (of course, who really knows?). But those teachings--which include repeated, vociferous, and violent intolerance--are in the Quran, and are therefore viewed by Muslims as the directives of Allah. That is why I argue that Islam is based on hatred. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 October 2014 at 12:12pm
Expert analysis of Islam. LOL ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 08 October 2014 at 1:04pm
Thank you. If you wish, I can provide chapter and verse for you. I know that many Muslim apologists try to argue that these verses don't really mean what they say. But many tens (hundreds?) of millions of Muslims indeed take them literally. For example, 86% of the Muslim population of Egypt and 82% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam (according to the 2013 Pew Research study). 89% of Pakistanis support stoning for adulterers. Do you? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 8:18am
Killing apostates is NOT sanctioned in the Qur'an nor in the Hadiths. However, apostates WERE killed during the time of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because he was given permission by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. This is so that he could establish His religion on earth. Stoning is a law that ALL Muslims MUST follow just like the Children of Israel were ordered to do so in the Torah of Musa (Alayhi Salaam). If you think it's uncivilised in the 21st Century then I suggest you take that up with God Almighty. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: sultanmuradII
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 10:16am
I don't think marcello you realised that you have to have a criteria to judge what you consider right from wrong. Whether that be the death penalty for adultry or no punishment. Care to share your criteria here or you can hide behind you computer screen and continue to spout (ironically) your hatred. |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 10:20am
You are misinformed. In the Quran, see 4:89, 88:23-24. In the Hadith, see Bukhari 52:260, 84:57, 89:271. Perhaps you, personally, would consider those citations to be taken out of context. But many hundreds of millions of your co-religionists do not. Also, see the 1991 Al-Azhar (Cairo) Islamic Research Academy endorsed manual of Islamic Law, Umdat al-Salik (pp. 595-96), where it states: "Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst.... When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostasizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. In such a case, it is obligatory...to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed."
Very true. The Torah indeed prescribes death for idolators and stoning for adulterers. But I doubt very much that today you would find a measurable percentage of Jews who support those punishments. The Jews seem to have advanced out of the dark ages, the Muslims have not. When did you last hear that a Rabbinical court sentenced an adulterer to stoning? Not in the past 2000 years or so. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 12:57pm
I had a feeling that you would use verse 4:89. As I've said it is for the time of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). As for 88:23-24 if you had read it carefully it says "Then Allah will punish him with a great punishment".
As for Al Azar University they've probably made a mistake (a grave one I admit) because there is no evidence in the Qur'an nor the Hadiths that the apostates are to be killed. Actually, it says in the Qur'an that they will be punished with a great punishment in the next life.
If the Jews are not following the prescribed punishment then they are disobeying God Almighty. If you think these subscribed punishments belong in the Dark Ages then like I said earlier you should take that up with God Almighty when you see Him. :) ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 2:32pm
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I agree with Abu Loren in this case, that the Quran does not say it is OK to kill apostates. It states God will punish them in the next life, but not to have them executed on earth. |
Posted By: Optimal Unity
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 3:21pm
My view is that the message is to re-examine what Islam is about, Islam needs a revision not fanatical adherence to stone-age ideals. There was a chance for Islam to be the one and only religion of the globe, the message spread far and wide but for some reason it stopped it was subverted, this surely is a message it is not yet perfect and we need revision. |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 6:23pm
My criteria are centered on the 'Golden Rule', which is very old and has been expressed in many forms and in many civilizations, e.g., �Do not do to others what you would not want others to do to you.� (Confucius, Analects 15:23). I have little respect for those who purport to find "morality" in blind obedience based on illusory rewards of paradise and threats of hell, none of which are testable. People who think it is "moral" to kill apostates and stone adulterers are not worthy of respect. And, by the way, what have I written that can be characterized in any way as "spouting hatred"? I don't hate Muslims at all; I just find them to be pathetically (and sometimes dangerously) misinformed. In contrast, as you well know, the Quran is permeated with hatred (see, e.g., 2:61, 3:73, 3:118, 5:12-13, 5:51, 9:5, 9:107, for just a few examples). |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 09 October 2014 at 6:32pm
You are certainly entitled to your opinion as to the meaning of a text that is full of ambiguities. But Bukhari disagrees with you (52:260, 84:57, 89:271). So does the Al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy. And so do the majorities of the populations of Egypt and Jordan. |
Posted By: Optimal Unity
Date Posted: 10 October 2014 at 1:21am
It is only Islam that is keeping at bay the evil side of the western system even though it has been a rewarding system it is a system without God. You only have to look at the Masonic influence on their constitution and their insistence on the separation of church and state. Their Democratic system is removing God from every aspect of their systems. This is not to say Islam does not need reform, but you should be thank full for the martrys. Do I think there is a better way yes. We will get there, but the plan is afoot to revise everything even Islam. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 October 2014 at 9:27pm
It is true that Muhammad did order some apostates to be killed. However, the Quran does not give such a directive, and states there is to be no compulsion in Islam. I am unaware of Muhammad stating that all apostates are to be killed, it is possible that the people he had killed were also fighting against his people in other ways. Also, although Al-Azhar states that apostates are to be killed, there are other Muslims who disagree. Clearly, this is not something that all Muslims agree on, there are many interpretations. |
Posted By: sultanmuradII
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 7:49am
There you go when you present your views it will highlight just how much thought you gave anything before embarking on a hate mission against Islam. How does this golden rule help in the formulation of the laws or boundaries in society, lets take the subjects treason and adultery as the example. If 1/2 the people in a land want to commit adultery and other 1/2 don't, how would this "golden rule" apply. If 1/2 want a severe punishment for the adulterer and the other 1/2 don't what would it mean "do not do unto others... "? And what about treason? Not much of a criteria! What you find illusionary, in my view, is down to your own misinformation or blindness, and if you are willing to discuss one issue at a time then God willing you will find that you have no leg to stand on. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 October 2014 at 7:41am
Every religion bears the potential to breed hatred. If you look at the history of Christianity, there was plenty of hatred, despite what Jesus said according to the Bible. The reason why killing in the name of Christianity is practically non-existent today can be easily identified: Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment, the latter a movement of intellectuals beginning in late 17th-century Western Europe emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition. Yes, Islam based on 7th century thinking alone (Salafism) breeds hatred, while Islam based on 21th century thinking doesn't. There are hundred of outspoken Muslim intellectuals who promote the latter. Unfortunately, not many of them visit Islamicity. And unfortunately in real life many of them are facing threats from Muslims stuck in 7th century thinking. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 12 October 2014 at 11:03am
I agree, there is lots of intolerance in the Old Testament, and some in the New Testament. And Islam has never had a Reformation. Perhaps it's because Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity, and several millenia younger than Judaism. Does that mean we need to wait a few hundred more years before the majority of Muslims come to their senses? One hopes not. But current events give little support for those hopes. |
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 1:44am
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Marcello, today we got the Internet and cell phones. Things change faster. Still, I think it will one or two generations for a modern peaceful Islam to evolve and become widespread. We need to learn from good examples, see my other post about the Kurds. ------------- A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 8:49am
Good point. I hope you're right. Even though the Internet can be used for nefarious purposes (e.g., luring young men into the ISIS fold with promises of Yazidi concubines), the easy access to information has to help. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 9:33am
No, it's because Islam specifically forbids reformation. Muhammad was the final prophet, no further revelation is possible, and "innovation" is anathema. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 10:07am
Greetings Matt, I think the biggest problem is, can islam evolve? I see the point Marcello is making.. the directives of the qur'an itself keep islam from evolving, unless and until the leaders can realize and accept that there are things in it that simply do not and can not apply to our world... toward our humane treatment of one another... of all people. Peace and blessings to you, I love reading your posts. Your intelligence is apparent. I loved your statement(in another thread) regarding what the Kurds are doing right.CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 10:35am
That's a valid point. In contrast, the Old Testament talked about a future Messiah (who, presumably, could bring new rules). But does the New Testament, in its own terms, recognize the possibility of a "reformation"? I don't know enough about the New Testament to answer that. But the European religious wars that came with the Protestant Reformation indicate that it wasn't an easy transition. The whole concept of continuing revelations is problematical. Does a "perfect deity" really change his mind that often? The Mormons seem to have embraced that concept: in less than 150 years their deity changed his mind about polygamy and blacks. I don't know if this is related, but the Book of Mormon is far less intolerant than the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Quran. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 10:55am
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Why don't you people go somewhere else and chat? Your views are laughable in an Islamic forum.
How about www.atheists.com ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 11:24am
Greetings Abu Loren, But then we would never have the pleasure of enlightening people who need enlightenment. No, but in seriousness... we wouldn't have the opportunity to try to understand how one another thinks, or to pursue understanding between us. We will only find God's best through communication with one another. Putting up walls helps no one.asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 12:41pm
That's all well and good but the four of you do not understand Islam for one thing and with your closed minds you are not even trying to understand. What's been posted is just your worthless opinions. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 1:16pm
Greetings Abu Loren, I think we understand pretty well. It's that islam(religion) has many facets, and we each understand different aspects, and understand the facets differently, that's all. That is the point of discussion. asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 1:50pm
You seem to think that anyone who does not accept the Quran as the revealed word of Allah has a "closed mind". Exactly the opposite is true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and that is sorely lacking for the supposed divine source of the Quran. In both ways: first, that a divinity even exists, and second, that the divinity revealed him/her/itself in the Quran. Try freeing your mind (difficult, I know, for a slave of Allah). See what is possible when you embrace freedom. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 10:22pm
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It's funny, I was just watching a movie today where it was said... "Only the closed mind is sure." The rest of us have the sense to realize that any of us could be wrong. (this is having an open mind) This is exactly why I would never impose my belief on another, nor is it right for anyone to impose theirs on anyone else. I've said this before... If they are going to hell, they have no right to make me go with them... and if I am going to hell, I certainly don't want to be responsible for taking anyone with me. It is belief... a thing that can not be proven... not until the day we each meet our Maker... until then we can only, as my signature says; seek Truth together I guess I could add to that... and pray it be revealed asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 8:47am
Proof positive that your mind is closed. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Qur'an that the minds of people like you have a seal against understanding the Qur'an and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. A free mind will think to do anything it feels like such as sinning and wouldn't even are about it. The opposite is true of the believer because he knows that this life is a test and those who pass the test will spend eternity with our Maker Alhamdulilah. On reading the Qur'an with an open heart I cannot come any other conclusion than that IS indeed from our Creator, a human being does not have the capacity to 'write' the Qur'an. By the way, I too was a 'free thinker' and I thank Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala for making me realise that I am nothing more than a slave to His Will. Otherwise I would be in clear error just like you. What will you do if there was indeed a Resurrection? Will you still be arrogant as you are now? ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 11:02am
Greetings Abu Loren, Your reply to marcello confuses me. Which is it, 'proof he has a closed mind', or proof he is 'a free thinker'? asalaam, CH ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 11:49am
Well closed mind in the sense that he cannot SEE God Almighty. Closed mind in the sense that God Almighty has set a seal in his heart so that he doesn't see the big picture. He is a free thinker because he can think whatever he likes. He can think that there is no God because he is free to do so. Like I've pointed so many times here, a slave of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala cannot think like that because a slave has limitations. Thinking that there is no God is unthinkable. :) So true freedom for these people is believing that there is no God and doing everything they possibly can to displease the Creator. They wouldn't, for example, think anything of it whilst they drink alcohol, fornicate, commit murder etc. All they have to worry about is the earthly law and possibly spending time in jail. So in that respect they are also FREE. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |