General Islamic Matter - --------------------------------------------------

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Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: General Islamic Matter
Forum Description: Discuss Islamic matters/issues that not covered by other sub catagories
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31400
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Topic: --------------------------------------------------

Posted By: Muslim75
Subject: --------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 10 September 2014 at 6:24am

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Replies:

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 September 2014 at 7:58am

Sufism is obligation for you and other Sufis but not for every other Muslim.

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La Ilaha IllAllah

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 12 September 2014 at 12:49am

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 12 September 2014 at 6:45am

Muslim75 wrote:

Music:

It is the channel of love. Without music there is no love. Music also reminds the soul of the original speech of Allah in the world of souls "Am I not your Lord ?"

Grave worship:

I have heard that there is grave worshipping that takes place. I don't know about it, but I know that these Sufi saints carry the blessings of Allah and His prophet (saws). So if you wish to be blessed - it does you good in your life - go visit them, whether they are alive or dead.

Shirk:

Some students worship their Sufi guides in a way. Well, many Sufi saints in the history of Islam said: "I am Allah" or "I am Muhammad". When Al Hallaj was killed, the river was about to swallow the city of Baghdad. But when the student put the cloth of Al Hallaj over it, it became calm. Part of the secret knowledge they possess contains a part about Allah. When they know that they become extremely close to Him. In Sufism, we say they become one with Allah. Like a drop of water falling in the ocean, it becomes the ocean. So they say: "I am Allah". Like Muhammad (saws):

''And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer" (Surah 53, V9)

When they say "I am Allah", the devoted student worships Allah.

Bid'a:

The prophet Muhammad (saws) and his companions would stay days without eating, fast on hot days, feed the hungry, compete in obtaining the blessings of Muhammad (saws), pray at night and sleep little, praise Muhammad (saws) in poetry, sit in circles of Dhikr, hold all kinds of spiritual talks...Bid'a is Islam the way it is practised by the non-Sufis.

This is an example of the extremes of certain Sufi groups. Sufism in general is not the problem. It is those groups that hold the beliefs you just mentioned.

When someone says "I am Allah", they are committing the worst sin possible. They become unbelievers. We can try to sugar-coat it as much as we want, but it doesn't change anything. It is shirk, and shirk is kufr.

Did the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) or any of the Sahabah ever say "I am Allah"? Of course not! Such an abominable thought would never have crossed their minds. So then, who are these "Sufi masters" who think that they can such things? May Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) protect us from such beliefs.

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 12 September 2014 at 1:51pm

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 12 September 2014 at 2:59pm

Muslim75 wrote:

The Sufism which features the elements I mentioned in my previous posts is actually the Sufism of major figures of Sufism like Jalal Al Din Rumi or Abu Yazid Al Bistami, Sultan Al Arifin or Muhyiddin Ibn Arabi.

What follows is not from me. It is from Sufism. So, please don't quote me. This is commonly accepted in the Sufi doctrines.

Allah Azza Wa Jall says in a Hadith Qudsi:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah ra, who said that Rasulullah saw said : Allah swt said : "Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servants draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask (something) of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about (seizing) the soul of My faithful servant : he hates death and I hate hurting him " (Hadith Qudsi, Bukhari)

Allah Azza Wa Jall in the Qur'an says about Muhammad (saws):

"And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature" (Surah 68, V 4)

"And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;" (Surah 53, V 9)

Surah 9 starts without Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim. It ends, out of nowhere, with a praise of Muhammad (saws):

"Now hath come unto you an Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful. But if they turn away, Say: (Allah) sufficeth me: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!" (Surah 9, V 128-129)

Allah Azza Wa Jall in the Qur'an mentions the story of Musa and Fir'awn (Surah 26)

24.(Moses) said: "The Lord and Cherisher of the heavens and the earth, and all between,- if ye want to be quite sure."

25.(Pharaoh) said to those around: "Did ye not listen (to what he says)?"

26.(Moses) said: "Your Lord and the Lord of your fathers from the beginning!"

27.(Pharaoh) said: "Truly your apostle who has been sent to you is a veritable madman!"

28.(Moses) said: "Lord of the East and the West, and all between! if ye only had sense!"

(Meaning here, both Musa are Fir'awn are greatly knowledgeable about Allah Azza Wa Jall. Just how greatly knowledgeable, this is what we are concerned about.)

Allah Azza Wa Jall says in Surah Maryam:

"Relate in the Book (the story of)" (Surah 19, V 16/41/51/54/56)

The Companions:

Muhammad (saws) said in Hadith he poured in the chest of Abu Bakr whatever Allah Azza Wa Jall poured in his chest.

Ali (k) said if the veil was lifted, his faith would not increase.

The believers:

Muhammad (saws) said in Hadith: "Beware of the vision of the believer for he sees with the light of Allah." Apparently from Tirmidhi and Tabarani, I'll verify Inshallah Ta'ala.

Abu Jahl:

Staunch enemy of Muhammad (saws). He was shown his fate on the battle of Badr just before being put to death. He then lied injured on the ground, about to die. Ibn Mas'ud (ra) later came to him and asked him, as mentioned in Bukhari "Are you Abu Jahl ?" He replied: "Did you kill someone more honorable than me ?" As if he wants to acknowledge the truth he was denying.

I am not sure what your point is. I asked whether the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) or the Sahaba ever said "I am Allah". Who was nearer to Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) than they? Yet we find that neither the Prophet nor any of the Sahaba ever said anything like "I am Allah". But lo and behold, along come some Sufi "masters" who have the audacity to say such things. Were they saying that they were nearer to Allah than the Prophet and the Sahaba?

Anyone who "worships" these Sufi "masters", as you suggested, is committing kufr. They are no different than the Christians worshiping Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).

"They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help" (Surah Al-Maeda, 5:72)

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 12 September 2014 at 3:24pm

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 20 September 2014 at 2:51am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 20 September 2014 at 2:54am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 12:39pm

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 1:29pm

Muslim75 wrote:

Why is it that Abu Hamid Al Ghazali, Hujjatul Islam says: Sufism is obligation, and yet Muslims refuse to follow Sufism ? Are they following a scholar who says Sufism is not obligation ? Or do they think Sufism is not obligation ?

It depends on what you mean by "Sufism". It is much to0 broad a term. If you are talking about mainstream Sufism which follows the Quran and the Sunnah, and is essentially the same as Sunni Islam, that is fine. But if you are talking about the "Sufism" which engages in grave worship and following "Sufi masters" who say things like "I am Allah", then no, it is not an obligation to follow it. In fact, it is an obligation to oppose it because it is an invitation to shirk.

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 23 September 2014 at 5:04pm

I am personally more for "Quranism", but Sufism is also a nice direction to search the love within oneself and God.

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 24 September 2014 at 6:06am

Kevin wrote:

I am personally more for "Quranism", but Sufism is also a nice direction to search the love within oneself and God.

The trouble with this thinking is that Some Sufi's like Muslim75 take it too far away from the Straight Path, they sort of like take a detour. If you do that then you will NEVER get there.

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La Ilaha IllAllah

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 5:53am

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 September 2014 at 1:25pm

Muslim75 wrote:

Imam Ghazali says about the Hadith which says that out of the 73 Muslim factions (or 72), one only will be saved; he (ra) says it is the Sufis.

But again, which "Sufis" was Imam Ghazali talking about? Was he talking about the true, pious Muslims that follow the Quran and Sunnah or the deviant ones who practice such things as grave worship?

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 3:21am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 3:30am

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Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 7:02am

Muslim75 wrote:

Again, on the topic of the Sufi when he says: "I am Allah".

Abu Yazid Al Bistami, Sultan Al Arifin (ra) once, in an unconscious state said "I am the Lord, free and pure of all staint." When he regained consciousness, his disciples told him what happened. He said, if this happens again, to kill him and cut him to pieces; and he gave each of his disciple a knife.

�

When it happened again, his disciples rushed to him to kill him. However, the more they stabbed him, the more the knives would go into his body, like knives going into water. His body was also getting bigger and bigger, until it filled the house. Then after a while, it came back to its normal size, and he regained consciousness. His disciples told him what happened. He explained, simply,�that it was not him who was saying these words; it was not him who was saying "I am the Lord, free and pure of all staint."

�

Abu Yazid Al Bistami was a very great saint.�Even Ibn Taymiyya praised him for these matters pertaining to divinity. Ibn Taymiyya is the penultimate reference of the Wahhabis, and these are the staunchest enemies of Sufism.

How can you believe in rubbish like this?

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La Ilaha IllAllah

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 2:18pm

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 2:24pm

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 3:09pm

Muslim75 wrote:

More on the topic of the Sufi when he says "I am Allah":

In the Holy Qur'an:

"(It is better if) Allah and His Messenger is pleased, if they are believers." (not "are pleased", but "is pleased" ; Surah 9, V 62 )

In the Hadiths (Bukhari), Allah Almighty says:

''...till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks"

So, now you are misquoting the Holy Quran to spread your ideas of shirk? I am sure you remember the hadith of the Prophet that anyone who interpret the Quran according to his own whims, let him assume his place in Hell.

Here is how the verse is really translated:

Sahih International

They swear by Allah to you [Muslims] to satisfy you. But Allah and His Messenger are more worthy for them to satisfy, if they should be believers.

Muhsin Khan

They swear by Allah to you (Muslims) in order to please you, but it is more fitting that they should please Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), if they are believers.

Pickthall

They swear by Allah to you (Muslims) to please you, but Allah, with His messenger, hath more right that they should please Him if they are believers.

Yusuf Ali

To you they swear by Allah. In order to please you: But it is more fitting that they should please Allah and His Messenger, if they are Believers.

Shakir

They swear to you by Allah that they might please you and, Allah, as well as His Messenger, has a greater right that they should please Him, if they are believers.

There is nothing in this verse to confirm the abhorrent idea of your so-called "Sufi masters" saying "I am Allah". The Prophet and the Sahabah never said such things. The fact that you have to resort to misquoting the Quran just goes to show how misguided you are. In that regard, you are no different than the non-Muslims who spread lies about Islam in order to deceive people.

I urge you to leave behind shirk and embrace true Islam, as practiced by the Prophet and the Sahabah, because on the Day of Judgment, you will have no refuge from Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He).

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 5:42pm

How can you believe in rubbish like this?

How do people think it is ok to call another person's belief's 'rubbish'?
Would it be ok for other people to call your beliefs rubbish?

I think there is nothing wrong with presenting differing viewpoints but respect for others should be paramount.

asalaam.

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 27 September 2014 at 5:51pm

Caringheart wrote:

How can you believe in rubbish like this?

Hi Caringheart,

I agree with you here. In case anyone noticed, about 30-40 minutes ago I wrote a post on this thread, that sarcastically mocks a hadith I am discussing with Islamispeace.

It was on here for a few minutes, until I decided that if I am going to be preaching respect and calling people out on being disrespectful to others' beliefs, I shouldn't be acting like a hypocrite. So I deleted what I wrote.

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 5:15am

Caringheart wrote:

How do people think it is ok to call another person's belief's 'rubbish'?Would it be ok for other people to call your beliefs rubbish?I think there is nothing wrong with presenting differing viewpoints but respect for others should be paramount.asalaam.

Read the reply of bro Islamispeace for crying out loud.

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La Ilaha IllAllah

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 6:13am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 6:14am

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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 11:17am

Muslim75 wrote:

More on the topic of the Sufi when he says "I am Allah":

In the Holy Qur'an:

"(It is better if) Allah and His Messenger is pleased, if they are believers." (not "are pleased", but "is pleased" ; Surah 9, V 62 )

In the Hadiths (Bukhari), Allah Almighty says:

''...till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks"

You can repeat your false claims all you want. They are not fooling anyone. Obviously, you are a person who doesn't want to learn, just to spread his false ideas and lead Muslims astray as you have led yourself astray.

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 11:33am

Abu Loren wrote:

Read the reply of bro Islamispeace for crying out loud.

Greetings Abu Loren,

Islamispeace's response is appropriate. He shares his beliefs, and has tried to guide according to his beliefs, without being offensive and insulting to Muslim75 and his beliefs.
This is the way to seek truth... and harmony too. Smile

Muslim75's beliefs seem to do no harm to anybody, if he wants to believe in them. No need to call them rubbish. The Creator will decide if he wishes to accept Muslim75's form of devotion. The Creator will decide if he has a pure heart.

Peace and blessings to you,
CH

[edit: Oops, maybe I spoke too soon. As I was typing, a new response has appeared by islamispeace.]
[edit 2: As I am re-reading I see that islamispeace did also resort to insults even in his prior post. I thought his last paragraph appropriate, in his prior post.]

I see no reason to ever be insulting.

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 September 2014 at 11:53am

Caringheart wrote:

Abu Loren wrote:

Read the reply of bro Islamispeace for crying out loud.

And I see no reason to care what you think. Oops, sorry! Was I being "insulting"? Wink

I don't know who put you on the judgment seat. If you have nothing to add to the discussion (why should you since it is a thread that concerns Muslims, not Christians???), then stay out of it and keep your advice to yourself. You are not the moderator of a presidential debate. LOL

Edit - I see "caringheart" amended her post, but I still stand by my post. You have no reason to even interject in this discussion because it doesn't even concern you. No one made you the moderator of this thread.

"Muslim75" has spent most of his time misquoting the Quran and Sunnah, and when he is confronted, he simply makes repetitious statements and avoids directly responding to any criticism.

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 29 September 2014 at 6:20am

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Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 3:08am

Nothing is an obligation, except honoring the universal human rights.

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 1:13pm

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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 October 2014 at 2:01pm

Muslim75 wrote:

Matt Browne wrote:

Nothing is an obligation, except honoring the universal human rights.

This is an Islamic forum. If you wish to discuss about Islam or other religions, you may do so. If it is not your aim, refrain from participating.

Greetings muslim75,

Is Matt Browne not 'discussing islam and other religion'? Isn't giving his view about it, discussing?

asalaam,
CH

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 04 October 2014 at 2:56am

Thanks, Caringheart. Perhaps, Muslim75 thinks discussing Islam and other religions means everyone can do so as long as long as he or she doesn't challenge his views. To me that is not the nature of a discussion.

My point was, that the universal human rights offer a common basis that all people can agree on including Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists and so forth.

Live and let live. We have an obligation not to curtail other people's freedom, as long as their choices don't curtail our freedom.

Let there be no compulsion in religion.

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 06 October 2014 at 1:27pm

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 13 October 2014 at 1:52pm

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 16 October 2014 at 1:53pm

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 26 October 2014 at 2:46am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 27 October 2014 at 5:44am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 01 November 2014 at 2:55am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 08 November 2014 at 7:17am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 14 November 2014 at 12:24pm

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 16 November 2014 at 2:05am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 18 November 2014 at 4:51am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 28 November 2014 at 11:19am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 06 December 2014 at 11:50am

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Posted By: Muslim75
Date Posted: 12 December 2014 at 11:46am

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