Anti Christ

 In effect it means We are the A.N.T.I. + C = A New Truth In Common with Christ, by this I mean We are the people accepting Our portion of responsibility so no one person must die for Us to be saved. That it is each of Us who must be responsible for our selves and others even more so than before. It means We can no longer turn a blind eye to the ills of the World , the people the animal, plant and sea life matter as well.

There is not going to be one A.N.T.I. Christ there are billions, they are not denying Christ but upholding the fact that each of Us are Powerful Spiritual Beings. Each requiring love and accountability to grow and develop thus denying the Christ like sacrifice being ever needed again to save anyone. With the exception of Fire fighters and Emergency Response Teams and other people like Police man and woman, that is sacrifice in the line of duty.

There is not going to be a war in the traditional sense on this but a new one called W.A.R.S.= World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually.

It means in truth that no one person should have to give up their life for another or for billions for that matter, each of Us is empowered to be Our best and do Our best for Ourselves and Others helping prevent a Monster of what the call the traditional Anti Christ.

It means the monster the anti Christ in the traditional sense controlling the minds of others to an evil extent if that or a person surfaces that they will be dealt with effectively and quickly not left to linger and cause harm amongst the people. They will receive counseling and psychiatric assistance immediately.  The real Anti Christ the monster is those who deny food, education and training to the poor, the abused or abusive and the ignorant.  These are the real monster Anti Christ.

For they too are valuable assets to Our society when they are healthy, maybe they will need help before they can really participate again the valuable Powerful Holy Spirit within everyone. Everyone is an asset to Our communities in some way shape or form. Some are more some are less. It must also be remembered that various cultures place a different scale of value on the lives of individuals. That is why this project is important especially to all of Our Global Societies.

It means We are the A.N.T.I. Christ but in a unique sort of way. By this I mean that everything that needs to be done can and should be done without anyone having to sacrifice their lives.  As the A.N.T.I. Christ We are people who get the job done without sacrificing life or limb to do it. I know some of you may want to go with the Anti Christ the very bad of bad people opposite to Christ but I think there can be opposite but similarities too. 

Similarities to Christ such as caring and giving of your time like he did. Giving of expertise, experience, knowledge, commitment and caring. These can be in any field of work whether it be hospital workers, school teachers, retail workers, factory workers, restaurant workers, volunteers, parents, friends, grandparents, siblings and car givers.   

When I use the word A.N.T.I. it is not against Christ but the opposite to an extent, the good extent. Just because it is traditionally used to mean a person totally the opposite of Christ I mean bad, very bad actually, does not mean We cannot shift it to mean something good for a change.

So indeed the A.N.T.I. Christ has come but it is not one person it is every person. Each doing their part to make the world a better place. This A.N.T.I. Christ I am talking about loves God and Loves Humanity and would not do anything to harm it.

If anything this A.N.T.I. Christ is one to care and promote peace where ever they are and go. A.N.T.I. = A New Truth In Common 

Indeed it is a New Truth in a way that We are the A.N.T.I. Christ very much so if you ask me. The salvation of the World does not mean everyone must give up their dreams and hopes to follow the road Christ, Buddha, The Bab, Bahaullah, AbdulBaha and Mohammed created new religions so We do not need to create a New religion We must create a new Spiritual Economies and Spiritual Environments. It means We are major stake holders in F.A.I.T.H. building with W.A.R.S. and everyone of Us is important to God.

None of Us is left out of this whether We belong to a religion or not for it encompasses our lives daily regardless of who we are or what we are doing. The Holy can be found in all places in all people every where. God has left none of Us alone, even though We may feel it at times.

For G.O.D. = Guiding Our Destiny. Is not God Guiding Our Destiny through Ourselves and others? I believe God the Creator is most certainly. None of Us is left without guidance although sometimes that guidance is in error. Think about all the wonderful People and things we have today that give Us guidance. We have television, radio, computers, internet and hundreds of different professions that bring Us educational guidance everyday.

What this We are the Messiah Project means is that the Powerful Spiritual Force We are must be geared more towards leveling the playing field for the average person. It means more efforts in volunteering and work related projects that address Poverty, Violence and Ignorance.

It means G.O.D. is Guiding Our Destiny and We are a major stake holders and players in the giving and receiving of the guidance. As major stake holders it means We are accountable for Our share in remedying societies ills. It means We take a portion of the burden not all of it when it comes to resolving Poverty, Violence and Ignorance.

It means taking a proactive approach on drug abuse and educating them and counseling them that there are other ways to feel good and solve their problems. Finding resolve within themselves to resolving their personal problems so they do not feel the need to use drugs. Also they need to be reminded they are major stake holders and key players in resolving not only their own problems but participants in society as well.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Salaam

The Antichrist is a person who will travel around the world to deceive people. Antichrist is not a concept, but a real person. Many will follow him. When the True Messiah descends he will kill the False Messiah, Maseehid-Dajjaal. Your post about the anti-christ does not make sense and it follow nothing but conjecture and confusion. The Antichrist is a real person and he is described in many ahadeeth as a person with one eye. The dajjaal represents the material dunia and he will deceive those who love this world too much and those who invent science fiction theories about the Dajjaal.

Isra'eel, i think the Anti Christ is an invention of the church as to keep people in fear for his supposed coming so that they can hold the people under their control, see if you accept one falsehood based upon a fear for other then Allah it opens way for more manipulations from the religious leaders.

If the Maseeh addajal is such a great affliction why is it not mentioned once in the koran? Jooj and Majooj is mentioned in the koran but the false massiah is not?

The issue is really simpel, if someone has fear for other then Allah he will listen to people their words when they play into those fears, fear is the creation of Allah in mankind and so He is the most deserving to it and He knows best what to do with that fear when placed in Him.

The Effects of the belief in an anti christ:

1. Power of religious leaders, it gives ways for them to make the listeners accept more falsehoods on the basis of misplaced fears.

2. No real support from the followers of these leaders for the esteblishment of a united world government.(this is scary for them)

3. Keeping people in a state of a certain inactiveness concerning world affairs.

A one world governement would mean the end of any religious or secular sect wishing dominance over others and who wish to force their religion on others or kill those who are different. Get the picture?

Alaikoam Salam

One World Government is now, each of us are the government.

Our well being and thriving is key, however within balance of the Spiritual Economies and Environments.

So basically it means we have the resources for for each of us to have what we need for our basic thriving and well being like food, shelter, education, employment.

Employ-to put into service.

This is WARS= World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually and each of us need Arise and participate in the best ways we can in healing ourselves, our families, our communities our Nations and World.

This is the Time of the Great Sorting out into Groups Surah 99, 1-8 though in fact this sorting out was commensed at the beginning of time and it is only now that we have all the tools, resources, trained and experienced people to be able to accomplish the task Allah, God the Creator set out for everyone from the beginning and that is personal and world peace.

I believe in you, I believe in Mankind.

I believe if we are called to the stakeholders table that given the perameters, given the tools, the education, the counseling and the support of Family, Community and the Nation we can bring Peace to Ourselves, Our Families, Our Communities and Nations by mediation and resolution work.

Bringing Heaven a little closer starts with each of us accepting our responsibilities and accessing community resources that can assist us with parenting challenges, relationship challenges, cross cultural challenges, opening lines of communication.

There is hope we are that hope!

Mashassallah!

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

I couldn't resolve the apparant contradictions in your post bro Isra'eel when you say "The Antichrist is a real person and he is described in many ahadeeth as a person with one eye. The dajjaal represents the material dunia and he will deceive those who love this world too much and those who invent science fiction theories about the Dajjaal. "

Is "Anitchrist" separate personality than "dajjaal"? Which Ahadith are you refering to about "Anitchrist"?

Salam Brothers, Sisters

Could you read over my first post and reply according to that not just Quran or Sunnah!

Thank You

 Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Dajjal = invention by people who chose to gain power over people through the fear of other then Allah,

If you have childeren and you tell them some kind of boogy man will come anytime they will become afraid, then you can tell them if they stick with you and not leave the main body of the family(lol) they will be saved, so if you tell them to stand on their heads every night and that this is protection agains the boogy man they will do it, your only problem would be when they go to school an meet other kids who will interact with them, so you need to make absolutly sure they are cut off from the rest of the world as to keep them under your control. The Afghanistan Experiment in this was shatered (lol)

You see putting fear into people for something makes sure they stick to those who instilled the fear and then give the answers and comforting words.

Fearing Allah alone means not sticking to a group because that is no guarantee of safety, safety is only in Him. So it can happen that a person who fears Allah alone walks towards death and finds death is not there but life, and then he realizes the lies he was told all his life by those who thought the quantity of their group was a guarantee of safety even though they lied.

As for your sins, or what you perceive as being sins, they are between you and Allah and He is The Forgiving The Merciful The Wise.

So do not let your sins or what you perceive as being sins be used by some opressor as to make you obey his words because you are ashamed for your sins infront of men, know that he is a far worse sinner then you otherwise he would not have sought power over you in such a deceiving way. Fear Allah alone so that you may prosper.

Freedom from the chackels of the opression of man to the pure and sincere service of Allah, and yes we all feel lacking but know that He is in full power over everything, even your sins. Ask His forgiveness and turn to Him, and woo to those who associate others with Him.

Israeel wrote: The hadeeth of Sahih Bukharee and Sahih Muslim are authentic narrations and they are the Sunnah of the Prophet.

Is there any difference b/w sunnah and hadith? Just curious.

ak_m_f wrote: Every stone or tree will tell the Muslim that behind it is a Jewish soldier. The Jewish soldiers are safe when they hide behind the tree of the Jews at type of Cedar Tree. A lot will be planted until then. The Dajjaal will be killed in a place called Bablut in Phalestine. Jesus just kills him through a miracle where you got this from? where is it that he will be killed in palastine?

First it was just jews hinding behind a tree or rock, and now it is the more politically correct version "jewish soldier". Listen if you really want to see a better situation for the palestinians then wish to see a better situation for the jews also, i mean they come to their homeland after being killed and persecuted by Hitler, they came in hope for a better future only to be welcome with angry faces and inhospitable people, ofcourse they will get pissed off at such harsh people and decide to throw them out of what they see as their land. And then hearing such talk of killing them all? stop scaring the sh*t out of them first with this nonsense and maybe then they can come out of their agressive defenciveness.

Deus wrote: Community, the Quran does not describe the method of salat (prayers) yet the Muslim community is in a concensus on how it is done. The Quran does not even explicitly say that the salat should be performed 5 times a day. Does this mean that Muslims should perform salat in whatever way they want, simply because the Quran does not describe it in detail?

Allah mentions specific ways in how to do the wudu(washing) but i find most people do it differently then how Allah mentions it in the koran. not a big deal because His intention is to purify us, the problem starts when some claim the way they do it is the best way and the way of the prophet while it is not how Allah tells us to do it in the koran, simply because they hold the words of men as above the words of Allah while they claim these words are the way of the prophet while they have no proof whatsoever except that they say "this is what our forefathers did" or "this is how the scholars do it(same thing)"

In the koran Allah specifically tells us about bowing down and putting the head on the ground in worship of Him. This is the essence of Salaat, to put the body mind and heart in service of Him. So if one does this no matter which way then this person has done salaat.

The people agree generally on how to preform the salaat, the movements are basically the same except for minor differences which i sometimes wonder who(how) these differences could have come had the salaat been always done in such a rigid way as is done nowadays.

How the hell do you compare salaat with the concept of an Anti christ coming?

The Anti christ is a concept from the contraversial book of "revelations" in the new testament, the concept is neither mentioned in the old testament(the torah) nor in the koran, since the koran is a confirmation of what came before and guarding over it then why is such a major event like the anti christ not mentioned while juj and majuj, the beast of the earth and the rising of the sun from the west are? this is a perfectly reasonable question.

As for al maseeh addajjaal the scholars preech that the prophet said that those before him warned their people for his comming, now then why did not Dawood(David) or Moses alaihim assalaam warned his people for his comming in the torah? the old testament?

Let me tell you the difference between the jews and the christians and muslims, the jewish people are a small people and already feel threatened by the peoples around them, so they do not need some concept to instill fear in them as to keep them tightly together under some religious esteblishment, hearing words like Isra'eel's or some christian fanatics or figures like Hitler does the trick of keeping them together under some fear.

As for christian and muslims who are big groups they need some concept to do this trick, the concept of an anti christ. The koran does not mention the anti christ so religious esteblishments adopted this concept from the christians since they saw it's effects on the listeners. (keeping them under the control of the religious esteblishment and wary of any other form of governance) Personally i do not see the point of having these kind of people who fear other then Allah as allies, they will be disbanded or ruined but obviously some people see some kind of benefit or gain in having a big group paralized. Fearing other then Allah is common with people and these sort of people are those open for manipulations and herding of those who use misplaced fear in people to gain more power and steer them to wherever they deem is beneficial for the rulers. Have'nt you learned this yet?

lol, i appoligize i thought those were your views on jews. But you do get the general point of what i said i hope.

ak_m_f wrote: Community wrote: Isra'eel wrote: Every stone or tree will tell the Muslim that behind it is a Jewish soldier. The Jewish soldiers are safe when they hide behind the tree of the Jews at type of Cedar Tree. A lot will be planted until then. The Dajjaal will be killed in a place called Bablut in Phalestine. Jesus just kills him through a miracle where you got this from? where is it that he will be killed in palastine? First it was just jews hinding behind a tree or rock, and now it is the more politically correct version "jewish soldier". Listen if you really want to see a better situation for the palestinians then wish to see a better situation for the jews also, i mean they come to their homeland after being killed and persecuted by Hitler, they came in hope for a better future only to be welcome with angry faces and inhospitable people, ofcourse they will get pissed off at such harsh people and decide to throw them out of what they see as their land. And then hearing such talk of killing them all? stop scaring the sh*t out of them first with this nonsense and maybe then they can come out of their agressive defenciveness. what the hell ur smoking? I just pointed out if its ture. I didint originally posted this article. I took the quote from Isre'el

So you were asking if it is true or not? well he will tell you yes it is true it says so in Bukhari, and then you might go "oh ok so it is true" (?)

Anyway if this is true maybe they should start planting some Cedar trees in Saudi Arabia...not much to hide behind for them there is there? Ow wait maybe they forgot they were once jews...they do not stop to think that their religious esteblishment of scholars resemble the jewish religious scholars so much that the whole world says :"yep they must be jewish" but they themselves might not even realize they are.

A brother looking at a brother who does not recognize him anymore...and who knows why he is acting in such a way...it is truely tragic. One wishing to destroy his brother.

I do not know what to say about them. I think the best thing to do is better between people and between family even if they do not know eachother because they were made to forget who they are.....laa hawla walaa quwwata illa bi Allah.

And if pride stands in the way of making peace, then know why that US soldier on the back of a tank puts up his two fingers in the air in the peace sign and yells: "To death & destruction" and others reluctant to sheer for this except 2 others.

"They claim you are jewish"

the scholar: "astaghfiruallah"

Salam Alaikoam, They cliam I am Jewish??????  LOL

Who said I was Jewish, I am a Muslim, though I was a Christian and also believe in a few other denominations in part.

Anne Marie

No the Saudi Scholars not you, those who preach that the prophet said that a time will come when his ummah will have to fight against a people who's salaat is more perfect then theirs and who's manners seem better then theirs, but still his ummah will have to fight against them.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Israeel wrote: The hadeeth of Sahih Bukharee and Sahih Muslim are authentic narrations and they are the Sunnah of the Prophet. Is there any difference b/w sunnah and hadith? Just curious.

the Ahaadith are collections of sayings of the Prophet salallahu alaihi wassalam, stories about his experiences, and descriptions of his daily life. The Sunnah is a way of life derived from the Ahaadith based upon the sayings and example of the Prophet salallahu alaihi wassalam. There are ahaadith that do not directly pertain to the Sunnah but serve more as historical records.

Thanks bro sufi-observer for your distinction b/w the two when you say "There are ahaadith that do not directly pertain to the Sunnah but serve more as historical records." But is there any sound methodology to separate one from the other. Just for example, is this sunnah or hadith when bro Israeel alluded about the forth coming of Dajjaal etc on this thread? Here is what he says "Not every single detail has to be mentioned in the Qur'an. The hadeeth of Sahih Bukharee and Sahih Muslim are authentic narrations and they are the Sunnah of the Prophet. The Sunnah is the second source of sharee'ah and we have to believe in it. In the Sunnah of the Prophet there are 10 Major Signs of the Day of Judgment mentioned. The Day of judgment will not a occur until 10 major signs occur. "

 Kindly note the highlighted text where he ascribing it clearly as sunnah. Can you comment on this part of bro Israeel's comments. Thanks.

sufi_observer wrote: the Ahaadith are collections of sayings of the Prophet salallahu alaihi wassalam, stories about his experiences, and descriptions of his daily life. The Sunnah is a way of life derived from the Ahaadith based upon the sayings and example of the Prophet salallahu alaihi wassalam. There are ahaadith that do not directly pertain to the Sunnah but serve more as historical records.

This is assuming the ahadith are correct, and this assumption usually comes forth because of ones trust in his religious scholar who teaches him these ahadith collections. Because with most ahadith there is no proof of them being true or not except the words of another claiming them to be true, it is like people saying Jesus is The begotten Son of Allah, they have no proof for this except the words of another claiming it to be true. Not to say all ahadith are not true, but there is a basis of doubt when we have to trust people who speak about other people living many years ago and who urge that those who told them where righteous people who are worthy of trust. Especially when looking at the history and how righteous muslimeen like the family of the prophet got killed and persecuted i conclude there is a high chance that rulers put up a religious esteblishment with all the consequences of lies and deceptions coming out of this.

On the more, why did people write the ahadith down while the prophet specifically told them to burn them when he heard they were being written down? writing them down is disobediance to the prophet no matter what stories they might have on who wrote them down and legalized it and why he forbade them to be written down. The ahadith were ment as oral narrations told from one person to another and this chain would remain with what is useful to the people and appliabale to their specific society and time. As Allah says in the koran Thus doth Allah put forth(hit) the truth and the falsehood. As for the scum disappears(dries up); while that which is useful to mankind remains on the earth. Thus doth Allah set forth parables. 

Writing the ahadith down has resulted in much injustice through people using them, and because people cling to books as a justification for their actions and their scholars who idolize these books and their writers, they disappear with violence caused by their injustice. Had they obeyed the prophet and not started writing his supposed words down the damage would have been limited to the unjust listening to other unjust and eventually getting destroyed. But now the injustice of those who were destroyed before can keep popping up by these books being used.

Can one reject a hadith if it is concerning the shariah if this person considers it unjust?

Anzala mina assamai maan fasalat awdiyatun biqadariha fahtamala assaylu zabadan rabiyan wamimma yooqidoona AAalayhi fee annari ibtighaa hilyatin aw mataAAin zabadun mithluhu kathalika yadribu Allahu alhaqqa walbatila faamma azzabadu fayathhabu jufaan waamma ma yanfaAAu annasa fayamkuthu fee alardi kathalika yadribu Allahu alamthal

He made water come down from the sky, and channels flow each according to it's measure, the torrent then bears the foam that mounts up to the surface. And, from that (ore) which they heat in the fire desiring ornaments or utensils there is a scum likewise. Thus doth Allah put forth(hit) the truth and the falsehood. As for the scum disappears(dries up); while that which is useful to mankind remains on the earth. Thus doth Allah set forth parables.

Really reflect on this wonder(ayat) from Allah, it is from chapter 13:17 Ar'rad, thunder or lightning. Reflect.
in Arabic it is much clearer.

Dear bro community, here are some thoughts on your post when you say

This is assuming the ahadith are correct, and this assumption usually comes forth because of ones trust in his religious scholar who teaches him these ahadith collections.

I really don't think its just a matter of faith alone. The authenticity of ahadith is more of logical wisdom and a systamatic methodology applied uniformly all over the literature. In modern times, it is known through "higher critisim".

Because with most ahadith there is no proof of them being true or not except the words of another claiming them to be true, it is like people saying Jesus is The begotten Son of Allah, they have no proof for this except the words of another claiming it to be true.

Not to say all ahadith are not true,.....

 Now this is what I call it "faith" based beleif either you say all or not all; simply because, I think, there is no other way to bring the "proof" of authentication of verbal sayings of Prophet Mohammad other than the evidences by those who heard it and written it down or transmitted to others orally and then written down. In any case, all such documents are scrutinized on the basis of "Ilam ul hadith" (Science of hadith) or call it "science of higher criticism". So your statement is self contradictory, if you don't trust this science of haidth, as you don't have any other way of authenticating it other than faith. Isn't it?

... but there is a basis of doubt when we have to trust people who speak about other people living many years ago and who urge that those who told them where righteous people who are worthy of trust.

......Especially when looking at the history and how righteous muslimeen like the family of the prophet got killed and persecuted i conclude there is a high chance that rulers put up a religious esteblishment with all the consequences of lies and deceptions coming out of this.

I know you can not agree with me for some reason Ahmadjoya, wether this is because of your tradition or what but i should not react like that so i will re-react,"

""Now this is what I call it "faith" based beleif either you say all or not all; simply because, I think, there is no other way to bring the "proof" of authentication of verbal sayings of Prophet Mohammad other than the evidences by those who heard it and written it down or transmitted to others orally and then written down. In any case, all such documents are scrutinized on the basis of "Ilam ul hadith" (Science of hadith) or call it "science of higher criticism". So your statement is self contradictory, if you don't trust this science of haidth, as you don't have any other way of authenticating it other than faith. Isn't it?"

Stoning is not mentioned in the koran, not once and still we find this very severe punishment for adultery in the shariah for those who uphold the koran(muslimeen) What happened to higher criticism here? are we there yet? that is all i am saying because i do not feel re writing my whole post again, it's useless because you actually test the koran according to the words of scholars and their methodology and ahadith and not the other way around.

and actually believe in methodologies as being science, wait "ilm" is not arabic for "science" if you thought this, "ilm" means "knowledge"

 i am sure your jewish and christian brothers talk the same way about their methodologies.  Humans are equal and equal means they can make the same mistakes. We have the truth which is from Allah, al quraan. How can one put secondary sources(the words of scholars and their claims and ahadith) over the words of Allah in judging? the only answer is that they found their forefathers doing so, and so they follow their way.

Is it acceptable to you that people can put the words of men over the words of Allah in judging?

Back to the first post your thoughts on it.......

Salam

O my dear bro community, is it possible for you to respond in one reply than using multiples and thus generating multiple emails for reminders to others on this thread? This would be easier for someone to respond to your comments more comphrensively and yet generating one single email for reminder. Thanks any way for your precious replies. Here is my response to yours

I know you can not agree with me for some reason Ahmadjoya, wether this is because of your tradition or what but i should not react like that so i will re-react,"

Agreeing to someone is only a matter of common understanding of a logic used, at least for me, and nothing else. I hope this is important to you as well.

Stoning is not mentioned in the koran, not once and still we find this very severe punishment for adultery in the shariah for those who uphold the koran(muslimeen) What happened to higher criticism here?

are we there yet? that is all i am saying because i do not feel re writing my whole post again, it's useless because you actually test the koran according to the words of scholars and their methodology and ahadith and not the other way around.

This example, or few others such like this, can't be considered adequate to do away with rich resource of ahadith collection, refined through ilm ul ahadith or as what you insist to call it methodology of knowldge about ahadith, though science is also nothing but a methodology of getting knowledge.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Stoning is not mentioned in the koran, not once and still we find this very severe punishment for adultery in the shariah for those who uphold the koran(muslimeen) What happened to higher criticism here? Your example is understandably good to those who wants to use basic human logic and wisdom in their matters. I don't disagree with this. However, I still call such examples as human errors and nothing wrong with the science of Hadith collection. Nevertheless, this particular hadith comes from Hz. Umar, which doesn't tell us if such a punishment by Prophet Mohammad was prescribed before or after the relevent verses on Zina were revealed in Quran. Most probably, it was before their revelation in Quran. Hence, I think, there is no sense to superceed Quranic injunctions through ahadith, especially once the verses are very clear. Hence, in this case, I think, human error of judgement can't be ruled out.

So is the difference of opinion a mercy for the community of muslimeen particulary in this instance when lives are taken?

I ask you, what holds leaders of the muslimeen back from choosing the most merciful approach in judgement? if they have faith in Arrahmaan, The Merciful and hope for His mercy then it would be logical for them to be as merciful as they can right?

Last question i would like for you to consider, the prophet was sent but as a mercy to mankind[quran], then can the shariah hold laws that are unmerciful? I do not believe the polytheists of mecca were of opinion that when he judged he was unjust or unmerciful, they just did not wish to give up their idolworship, but now people are of opinion that the shariah is unjust and unmerciful so they believe the prophet was also because people claim that is his way.

Difference of opinion is in nature of mankind, mercy or no mercy, irrespective. Isn't it? However, the thing to emphasize is as these opinions are realized when final decision is taken by the hakim. When that decision is taken, it is imperative for all to obey, though may still have the differences among them. This is the norm of any civilized society let it alone be of Muslim in nature.

Islamic Laws or Shariah, has a methodology to base upon and its not from whimsical ideas of one or two genius minds, but needs to involve the whole of Ummah. But again, even the Ummah, can make errors which must be rectified as soon as the mistakes are realized. 

"Islamic Laws or Shariah, has a methodology to base upon and its not from whimsical ideas of one or two genius minds, but needs to involve the whole of Ummah. But again, even the Ummah, can make errors which must be rectified as soon as the mistakes are realized."

Very reasonable, howabout making it possible for judges to be replaced if they fail to be as merciful as possible? this would mean by not adopting a verdict which is not in contradiction with the words of Allah but is more merciful and just then the verdict of the judge. In my opinion a true judge should put the wellbeing of the people and the state before his position as judge. People should be able to counter a judgement made by a hakim if people believe it is unjust or unmerciful and have the book of Allah as basis for their objection. And why not make the person who objected and who had a more merciful verdict the new judge? and same for him if someone finds his verdict as unmerciful and has a better judgement, then he should be able to replace the previous judge and so on. I am of opinion that this way you guarantee the increase of justice and mercy for all.

yes?

DAJJAL-THE ANTI CHRIST

I would like to share with you some of the information I have come across during my 3-4 years study of DAJJAL. You can also have much about DAJJAL - THE ANTI-CHRIST Christian and Jewish sources. But what did The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) say about DAJJAL (The greatest Fitnah (Evil, test)) that will ever befall mankind.

1. Who is Dajjal?  Dajjal has come from the Arabic word Dajjl, meaning to deceive or deception, or even falsehood. In fact Dajjal is a system, form of governance, way of living and also a personality. A system that shall promote mass immorality (Homosexuality, Adultery, Fornication), Atheism, Devil-worship, use of USURY, Intoxication, (Alcohol & Drug abuse), Crime, Injustice, Oppression, Fitnah of the Pen (understood as the means of communications like Pornography, nudity, magazines etc.), wars, Famine, Massacres/genocide, Rape and suffering etc, etc on an immeasurable scale. Once this system will reach its climax the Dajjal will emerge first to claim himself as the Messiah and then GOD.

The Dajjal as a system is of course very much linked to http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm - FREEMASONRY AND ILLUMINISM  about which in detail can be read at ( http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm - www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm ). Majority of the official positions in the United Nations, The EEC and every in the British Parliament is held by people who are or are linked to Freemasons. Freemasonry has deeply penetrated in all the world regions and continents (including the Islamic world), yet most people do not know about it or acknowledge it. Freemasons secretly worship Devil-god, known as JAHBULON, and illuminatis openly worship the LUCIFER (Iblees or the satan). The details can be read in these International best selling books on Freemasonry �The Global Freemasonry� by Haroon Yahya �The Brotherhood�, by Stephen Knight and �Satanic Voices�, by David Musa Pidcock (can be free downloaded from http://www.islamicparty.com/ - David Musa (converted British Muslim) says, �If we are talking about Dajjal, representing a system of disbelief clearly visible to anybody as such, be he literate or not, irrespective of the fact that it is being proclaimed in the name of Trinitarian Christianity, then this Dajjal is alive and kicking amongst us, no longer tied down since he mastered the art of using iron, throwing off his chains and restrictions, making everything fancy from computer hardware to destructive weapons. He is one-eyed, materialistic, deprived of spirituality, his promised paradise is hell and his hell is paradise, and he is followed by an army of Jews, women and Bedouins. He controls the resources of the world through his interest banking system, and has indeed mountains of bread, and people will suffer hunger unless they follow him. Whilst the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, would have argued with him on our behalf, were he still around, now everybody will have to argue with him on his own behalf. Yet, Dajjal, the system, is not sufficient an explanation for all the descriptions given of him in the prophetic traditions. Many of them speak of Dajjal as an ordinary, short man of Jewish extraction (like Ibn Sayyad), with curly and coarse hair and a beak of a nose, and biting teeth. He commands armies and, ultimately, he will be slain. Dajjal the person is the leader who will ultimately lead the forces of evil on this earth, the system of Dajjal.�

Another converted Muslim Muhammad Asad (ex Laopold Weiss) wrote in the chapter of Dajjal in his book �Road to Mecca�: ��. but the young Bedouin was persistant in his search for knowledge, and asked, Is it true O brother that you yourself was a Frangi? (word used for the European Christians and Jews in Arabia and Asia). On nodding  my head he asked, �Tell me brother that why the Frangis are so unmindful of God?� �This is a long story and can�t be answered in few words�. I replied. �All I can tell you now is that the world of Frangis has become the world of Dajjal, the glittering and the deceptive one. Haven�t you heard that the Prophet told that in later times most people will follow Dajjal, believing him to be God?� As he looked at me I with a question in his eyes, I recounted to a visible approval in the eyes of Shiekh Abu-Bulayhid, the prophecy about the appearance of that apocalyptic being, the Dajjal, who would blind in one eye but endowed with mysterious powers upon him by God. He would hear with his ears in the farthest corners of the earth, and would see with his one eye the events happening at infinite distances. He would fly around the earth in days and will cause the treasures of gold and silver to appear beneath the ground,��. so those whose faith is weak will believe him to be God and those who are strong in their faith will be able to read written in his forehead �Denier of God�.�    

2. Why Dajjal is not mentioned in Quran?  This can never be known that why Allah has not mentioned Dajjal in Quran. Surely its only known to Allah. However there can be numerous assumptions to this. I would say this, there are various major signs before the doomsday which are not mentioned in Quran. Prophet enumerated these major signs that once they will appear no one�s repentance will be accepted as also indicated in Quran(Ch-47, verse-18) These are :                                                          (1) Emergence of fire in Arabia (Hijaz) which happened in 654 A.D (2) Great land fall in West (3) In Middle East and (4) In Asia/SE Asia (5) Dajjal  (6) Jesus (7) Gog and Magog (8) Smoke from sky (9) Sun rising from West (10) Beast of the earth and (11) Fire of Yemen.         Out of these 11 only 4 are mentioned in Quran: Beast of earth(Ch-27, verse-82), Return of Jesus(Ch-43, verse-61), Gog and Magog(Ch-18, verse 92-99 & Ch-21, verse 96-97), and Smoke from Sky (Ch-44, verses 10-11). This is because Prophet should not be undermined and there are people who out rightly deny the validity of Hadith. Imraan Bin Hussain (RA) relates that, Prophet (SAWS) said: �Since the birth of Adam till the day of Judgment (Qiyamah), there is no bigger an event (Fitnah/test) than DAJJAL� (MUSLIM).

So anyone who denies Prophet�s Hadith and Dajjal he definitely will fall for Dajjal, meaning that this is as a punishment for those who deny the Hadith. So as to let them bewilder in their, so called world of �rationalist intellectual philosophy.� Ubaidah Bin Saamit (RA) says, Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) said �I have explained DAJJAL to you, but I fear that you might not have understood. DAJJAL will be of short height with his legs crooked. His hair would be curly. If still any doubt persist in your mind, remember that your Sustainer (ALLAH), is not one eyed.� (AHMAD). In another hadith Imraan Bin Hussain (RA) says the Prophet (SAWS) said ; �Those who hear about DAJJAL should stay far from him. By Allah! A person will approach him thinking himself to be a believer, but on seeing his amazing feats, will become his follower�. (ABU DAWOOD).

3. Why there seems to be some contradictions in Hadith about Dajjal?  Most of the Hadiths about Dajjal are in their real sense while some are allegorical. While in some Dajjal is mentioned as a personality and in some as a system of governance. So these appear to be contradictory. Once it is said he is blind from one eye or he has one eye, it refers to our contemporary system of physical and material pleasures with no spiritual dimensions. At other places it is said he has fire and water or he will have hell in one hand and heaven in the other, this also refers to the physical comforts and pleasures as a result of his obedience and the hardships in his denial. The exact parallel can be given if you have to explain a computer to a person 300 years ago, to do this you will sometime have draw parallels with a cupboard or a box or even a cabinet which can talk to you and display pictures. Like in a hadith Prophet told, ��. Animals and non-livings will talk to you, even so your stick and shoe lace will talk to you and your thighs will inform you about the events in your house which had taken place in your absence�. (Thrimdhi). This indicates the computers, telephones, surveillance cameras, radio/TV and mobile phones which we normally keep in pockets close to our thighs. Another Hadith says, ��.. even trees and stones will speak out that a (Freemason/illuminati) Jew is standing behind me �. But the Gharkad tree won�t speak which is of Jews�. (Muslim). This can mean that the latest modes of identifications will be used to identify Jews like ID cards, ATM cards, social security numbers, telephone numbers, Tax returns and identification software�s etc and the software developed by Jews won�t help.                                          Similarly Prophet could not have told his companions that Dajjal will emerge on a Boeing 707, therefore he said: �Dajjal will emerge riding a white donkey whose span of ears would be 70 yards, (Bahaqqi). He also told that �Dajjal will move very fast on the planet, with the speed of clouds he will have one feet in Damascus while other in Yemen.�. He also mentioned of �great wars to get the mountain of GOLD which will emerge in the heart of Euphrates before emergence of Dajjal in which 100 out of 99 people will be killed�. (Muslim) This mountain of (BLACK) Gold is oil over which we all are fighting. He also told �before his emergence Christians under 80 banners (nations) will unite against you and each and each banner (flag/nation) will comprise 12,000 soldiers� (Muslim). The total figure reaches to 9,60,000. The Jews, the Christians, the Atheists and Secularist, have already united in the name of �WAR AGAINST TERROR� under one banner against Islam since 2001. And interestingly he also told that, �initially you will join the coalition but once they will break the treaty and their leader will shout the Cross has prevailed (against Islam), then you (Muslims) will unite against them� (Abu-Dawood).

So dear brothers and sisters don�t fall prey to Dajjal or the system of Dajjal which is synonymous to �Geo-Economics, Self Interest, National Interest, Western Capitalism, Slogan of Freedom & Human Rights(in which gay marriages and union without marriage is permissible), Illuminism, Freemasonry, Nationalism, obeying your wishes and whim�s and the Philosophy of Universal Religion (that all religions are right and guide to same straight path, mean worshiping one God, 2 gods, multiple gods or even belief in God is not important. What is important is the construction of a good society). There can be no society without the concept of one God. REMEMBER ONE EYE IS THE SIGN OF FREEMASONRY WITH A TRIANGLE UNDERNEATH AND A THREE WORD SLOGAN (NEW SECULAR ORDER). THIS SIGN IS ALSO PRINTED ON THE BACK SIDE OF ONE DOLLAR NOTE. WE CAN FIND THIS EYE BEING SO POPULAR IN MEDIA, CBS CHANNEL, ARMAGEDDON MOVIE, LORDS OF THE RINGS, TOMB RIDERS, CARTOONS, SONG VIDEOS ETC ETC.  (More material available on request).

Shams Zaman mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Pakistan

Brother Ahmed Joya said!

However, I still call such examples as human errors and nothing wrong with the science of Hadith collection. Nevertheless, this particular hadith comes from Hz. Umar, which doesn't tell us if such a punishment by Prophet Mohammad was prescribed before or after the relevent verses on Zina were revealed in Quran. Most probably, it was before their revelation in Quran.

Well the punishment for Zina "stoning to death" and the "Death" Punishment for a Murtad, (one who deserts Islam in an established Islamic socity) are not mentioned in Quran. Actually Muhammad (PBUH) did not bring a new message to Humanity, these were the teaching and law given to Adam, Noah, Hood,Salah, Abrahim, Shoaib, Moses and Jesus (may peace be upon them all). The punishiments for the deserter in Old testemant is either to face death and for a Adulter is stoning to death. These portions were not corrupted by them so once a Jew unmarried couple was brought to Prophet Prophrt asked to show the Torah and punishment will be given according to the Jewish law. They were stonned to death (mentioned in Quran Sura Maida-5, verses 41-50). The verses of punishment for zina is mentioned in Sura Nisa-4, verse-15, revealed at Mecca, which says to shut them up. Then in Sura Noor-24, verse-2 revealed at Medina (100 lsahes), and then in Sura Maida-5. At that moment Prophet told that the punishment for un-married adulterer is 100 lashes and for married is stoning to death. 3 persons were executed in the life time of Prophet under the punishment of stoning to death but on self-confession. Because the circumstansial evedince of 4 witnesses in case of Zina can never be met. Hoewer in case of rape only man was convicted and stoned to death.

Shams Zaman  Pakistan 

Muhammad Asad, (Laopold Weiss) who reverted to Islam from Judaism gives the explaination. 

The koran does not make a distinction between married and unmarried when it comes to the punishment for Zina, moreover in the koran the prophet is commanded to judge between THEM by what Allah sent down(the torah and injeel) and that is exactly what he did. To say the punishment for zina for a muslim is stoning is wrong because this is not the law from the koran. Jewish law should be based upon the torah and islamic law should be based on the koran. Doubt should be replaced with certainty and this does not mean the use of secondary sources (everything other then the koran and what is confirmed in it) while they clearly contradict the koran or have no basis at all according to the koran. The problems start when either parties give more value to the opinion of their scholars and their written works and the strict adherence to these works instead of the books sent down by Allah. At that point one makes his scholars into gods beside Allah and that is shirk.(association)

Shams Zaman wrote: At that moment Prophet told that the punishment for un-married adulterer is 100 lashes and for married is stoning to death.

Dear Bro, kindly note the underlined highlighted text for which I request you to provide the evidence. Thanks for sharing your views.

Dear Brother Ahmed,

I would first of all share the Hadith with you because my reply to my brother Community will be a little long.

(1) Narrated by Hazrat Ubbada bin Samat after the initial verses of Sura Noor were revealed Prophet said, �Learn from me, learn from me, learn from me, Allah has ordained the punishment for the adulterers, that is 100 lashes for the unmarried man and women and stoning to death for the married man and women.� (Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Hadood(limits). Also narrated in Abu Dawood, Ibn e Maja, Thrimdi and Musnad Ahmed).

(2)  Regarding the people who were executed by stoning to death please also see, Bukhari (vol 2) ch-18, Hadith no-1680, (vol 3) Ch-22, Hadith no 286. These incidents are also mentioned in following books of Hadith: Abu Dawood, Thrimdhi, Nisaai, Ibn-e-Maja, Musnad Ahmed (Vol 1, Hadith no.2212), Mutta Imam Malik, Dharami, Darquthani. A very lengthy and detailed debate of these incidents, their logic and conditions under which they can be given is discussed in Tahfeem-ul-Quran, vol-3 under the tafseer of Sura Noor. All these hadiths and the opinions of Muslim scholars are also given in over 44 pages. 

And dear brother community!

These are not secondary sources of some scholars these are specified Hadiths. You are ambiguous while saying, �Doubt should be replaced with certainty and this does not mean the use of secondary sources (everything other then the koran and what is confirmed in it) while they clearly contradict the koran or have no basis at all according to the koran�. It does not clarify that whether you are among those who totally deny the validity of Hadith or who just deny that which is not acceptable to the west, or you are calling the Fiqa as secondary source or it is Hadith itself which is being undermined by you. And in your opinion all those who follow Hadith, along with Quran are Mushriks?? If that what you mean dear brother its extremely dangerous statements. And actually these statements belong to one of the 2 groups which were formed during the caliphate of Hazrat Ali (the fourth Caliph) and are known as �Kharajis� or the deserters. They deserted Islam by declaring Hazrat Umer, Hazrat Usman, Hazrat Ali and some 200 other companions (including those who fought the battle of Badar) as Kafirs. They refused to accept Hazrat Ali as Caliph and declared themselves as �The people of Quran� (Ahl-e-Quran). They totally denied the validity of Hadith and were recognised as the first victim of the �Fitna-e-Dajjal�. I don�t know to which group you belong. These people could never justify the following verses of Quran, I think you should also try, if in your opinion, Hadith is no more a source of explanation of the Quran.     

(1)              There is no mention as to how many prayers (Sala�s) we have to offer in a day. How to find this in Quran? Quran just say in Sura-e-Nisa (Ch-4) that Prayers have been made obligatory on specified times. But what are those timmings.

(2)              Quran does not specify as to how the prayers have to be offered? So can you offer them the way you want and can you recite whatever you want?

(3)              Quran says that �Whether man or women, both the hands of a thief should be chopped off, this is the reward for their earnings and an exemplary punishment for them from Allah, and indeed Allah is mighty the most wise� (Sura Maida-5, verse 38). By this principle we are suppose to chop both the hands of a thief. But Hadith specifies that the punishment of chopping the hand is to be given once the value of theft items cross 10 Dirhams (in those times) now its equal to approx 180 dollars. Moreover, it is not to be given on the theft of food items (vegetables, fruit and wheat), to a person who is needy had nothing to eat for 3 days. By your formula anyone who steals an item of 50 cents and one who robs Bank worth 10 million dollar, their both hands should be chopped off.

(4)              Quran does not tells us about the exact details of Hajj as to how it is to be performed? What to do, just perform 3-4 steps mentioned in Quran and fall back?

(5)              Quran does not tells us how to do Gusal-e-janabat (bath for purification), so what to do?

(6)              Quran tells us make witness someone once you do business or sell/ buy something. So does this mean that all the oral deals, selling and buying are invalid?

(7)              Quran only tells not to marry 2 or more sisters at a time. Does this mean that a person can marry a lady and her niece (sister�s daughter or brother�s daughter) at the same time?

There are so many other details which are not mentioned in Quran. Why? I have already mentioned in the 60^th post with the heading of Dajjal in the same forum. The authority of Prophet should not be undermined and Quran should not become so voluminous that a few who still actually recite (to act) on it shouldn�t forgive it.

Shams Zaman

Pakistan      

Salam Alaikoam

Please remember to leave a space or two after every couple of sentences as it makes the passages easier to read.

Though we could call these ayats because who knows where the writting from any work you do will end up maybe in a new Quran, Katab, Book of Scriptures. LOL

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

There is no distinction in the Quran yet many hundreds of thousands of woman have perished due to false accusations or imprisonment.

Woman have been treated by men as door mats, sex toys and their lives and their childrens lives hung by a thread because some men, some people deem themselves more important.

It is hoped that society will evolve and arise to their Station as Gaurdians of this World and each other and set aside old behaviors of abusing or being abusive for new behaviors of Service to Allah and Mankind including ourselves and our families.

We are capable and able to rise to this (High) though it is not that high really as it is simply learning better more caring ways to cope with stress, resolve our challenges and the challenges of our Families and Nations in peaceful caring ways.

We have a change to turn back the clock and save the world and Mankind from certain doom and dispair due to environmental issues and safe gaurd us from old style wars of Mankind and start new W.A.R.S.= World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually and renewing the World and Islam though it is more than you can believe.

We can have Jannah in this life though some call it Heaven in this life and it begins with ourselves accepting responsibility for ourselves and reaching out to community agencies for guidance and support while we learn new behaviors and skills for employment and parenting skills, relationship skills, healthy boundaries, good communication skills, good conflict resolution skills.

The World needs us to take action on her behalf, we are part of her, we are her trust and Mankind is our Trust and so is the World! 

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Dear sister Aml Habibi!

I am really sorry for the inconvenience I caused you and lot others in reading. I would definitely take this in my mind to kepp the text more spaced.

Well I really can�t make out that when you say, �Though we could call these ayats because who knows where the writting from any work you do will end up maybe in a new Quran, Katab, Book of Scriptures.� You say it in insolence or you really think that way.

But I or anyone for that matter can�t do this. This is indeed way beyond my capability or for that matter anyone�s capability.

Quran says: �And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah, or says: �It has been revealed to me�; while nothing has been revealed to him, or he who says: �I can reveal the like of what Allah has revealed?� and if you could see (you would have seen that) when the unjust shall be in the agonies of death and the angels shall spread forth their hands: Deliver up your souls; today you shall be recompensed with an ignominious chastisement because you spoke against Allah other than the truth and (because) you showed pride against His communications.�

So definitely nothing has been revealed to me and these are all my own thoughts. The difference between a revelation and a personal idea is that a revelation can never contain an iota of falsehood or error while a personal idea is always prone to it.

Secondly you said, �There is no distinction in the Quran yet many hundreds of thousands of woman have perished due to false accusations or imprisonment.                                 Woman have been treated by men as door mats, sex toys and their lives and their childrens lives hung by a thread because some men, some people deem themselves more important.�  I agree with you in this regard. Not only women but hundred of men and children have also perished due to false accusations. That is why Allah has strictly forbidden accusing anyone.

Let me give you account of what happened in the times of Prophet. A companion came to him and asked (he was sent by another companion) if someone see his wife with another man in a compromising position what should he do can he bring the case to the court? The Prophet said, Go forth and don�t ask such silly questions. That went to the other and informed him that, �I earned the annoyance of Prophet due to you and I would never ask anything for you in future.� The companion came to Prophet and asked the same question he was also rebuked by the Prophet. Then he specifically asked that he has seen his wife with someone so what to do? Prophet said, either bring 4 witness or produce yourself for 80 lashes on the charge of false accusations. At that moment the verses of �Leaan� swearing by both husband and wife in front of court for their innocence were revealed.  

In the times of Caliph Omer 2 persons were brought for fighting and one had said that, �Neither my mother was adulterous nor my father.� Caliph Omer asked him �you said this as if the parents of other person were adulterous? Do you have any proof of this accusation?� so once the gentleman could offer no justification for his statement he was convicted and awarded 80 lashes for false accusations.

So Islam cannot be blamed for the actions of certain people who deem themselves to be more important, and causes the women or children to suffer or use them as maids or sex tools. It is indeed our duty to teach them and to try to put them on the right path and make this society a peaceful one. But remember we cannot achieve a perfect society or what you call it a �JANNAH� because some will follow their selfish whims and some their friend SATAN who is out there in their way to let them go astray.

Shams Zaman

Pakistan   

Thanks bro Shams for your references. However, I did not find these wordings ��after the initial verses of Sura Noor were revealed Prophet said���.� from any of the references that you provided. Hence, I don�t see any strength in your arguments in favor of stoning punishment.

This is what you wrote

Shams Zaman wrote: ] Dear Brother Ahmed, I would first of all share the Hadith with you because my reply to my brother Community will be a little long. (1).   Narrated by Hazrat Ubbada bin Samat after the initial verses of Sura Noor were revealed Prophet said, �Learn from me, learn from me, learn from me, Allah has ordained the punishment for the adulterers, that is 100 lashes for the unmarried man and women and stoning to death for the married man and women.� (Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Hadood(limits). Also narrated in Abu Dawood, Ibn e Maja, Thrimdi and Musnad Ahmed).

Here is the complete hadith from your reference. Kindly note the absence of such statements in the hadith literature. All my references are from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/smtintro.html - Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 17:

The Book Pertaining to Punishments Prescribed by Islam (Kitab Al-Hudud)

Book 017, Number 4191:

'Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.

Book 017, Number 4192:

'Ubada b. as-Samit reported that whenever Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.

---

Book 017, Number 4193:

This hadith has been reported on the authority of Qatada with the same chain of transmitters except with this variation that the unmarried is to be lashed and exiled, and the married one is to be lashed and stoned. There is neither any mention of one year nor that of one hundred.

Chapter 4: STONING OF A MARRIED ADULTERER

---

Book 017, Number 4194:

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

shams Zaman wrote: (2)  Regarding the people who were executed by stoning to death please also see, Bukhari (vol 2) ch-18, Hadith no-1680, (vol 3) Ch-22, Hadith no 286. These incidents are also mentioned in following books of Hadith: Abu Dawood, Thrimdhi, Nisaai, Ibn-e-Maja, Musnad Ahmed (Vol 1, Hadith no.2212), Mutta Imam Malik, Dharami, Darquthani. A very lengthy and detailed debate of these incidents, their logic and conditions under which they can be given is discussed in Tahfeem-ul-Quran, vol-3 under the tafseer of Sura Noor. All these hadiths and the opinions of Muslim scholars are also given in over 44 pages.

O my dear brother, though I do admit there are numerous ahadith on this subject, but the point is that none tells us that these examples were before or after the verses revealed in surah Noor. Hence, these examples do nothing to resolve the issue. On the contrary, there are some ahadith that do show the fact that such punishments were prescribed based upon the injunctions of earlier scriptures. Here are few of them that provide direct evidence to this fact.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/satintro.html - Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 24:

The Office of the Judge (Kitab Al-Aqdiyah)

Book 24, Number 3619:

Narrated Ikrimah:

The Holy Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to Ibn Suriya': I remind you by Allah Who saved you from the people of Pharaoh, made you cover the sea, gave you the shade of clouds, sent down to you manna and quails, sent down you Torah to Moses, do you find stoning (for adultery) in your Book? He said: You have reminded me by the Great. It is not possible for me to belie you. He then transmitted the rest of the tradition.

Here is another tradtion, (I don�t know if this is also called a hadith), a type which does reflect people�s attitudes and likenesses, even before Islam:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/satintro.html - Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 24:

The Office of the Judge (Kitab Al-Aqdiyah)

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:

During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.

The interesting thing to acknowledge here is that people who narrated as well as those found this narration worthwhile to record, do expect morality among animals as well.  Their attitude does show how important, even for monkeys, not to commit �illegal� sexual intercourse, but failed to explain as what is �legal� sexual intercourse could be among animals? Do they mean formal �Nikkah� among animals? This seems quite over board emphasis of the issue. Isn�t it?

             In the end, in the absence of any evidence to show when such punishments were prescribed, here is another evidence right from the ahadith literature itself.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/sbtintro.html - Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 58:

Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar)

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 804:

Narrated Ash Shaibani:

I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa, 'Did Allah's Apostle carry out the Rajam penalty ( i.e., stoning to death)?' He said, "Yes." I said, "Before the revelation of Surat-ar-Nur or after it?" He replied, "I don't Know."

With all this, I hope one would look at the issue with more rationale than toddling the tradition blindly.

Dear Brother Ahmed Joya!

The words  "after the initial verses of Sura Noor were revealed Prophet said���." are in the commentry of Hadith and not in Hadith. That's good that you have found so many references and its surprising that you have not found out that if there were no orders of stoning from Allah's side then how could Prophet or his companions execute someone with this punishments.

That mean the Prphet was doing it wrong or against the will of Allah. Because if this punishment was to be ammended no one would have been executed. Does that mean that if we don't find a punishment in Quran or Hadith we should give the maximum punishment DEATH.

If that was the case then God would have responded immediately to stop Prophet and would have clearly said so. Prior to this the instructions in Sura Nisa were revealed that they should be kept as prisoners in house. So under these circumstances how could be the punishment of Rijam could have been given. Sura Nisa was revealed between 3-4 Hijra and Sura Noor was revealed in 6 Hijra. 

Whatever Prophet do it is by the permission of Allah. And it is surprising that if you say this, "though I do admit there are numerous ahadith on this subject, but the point is that none tells us that these examples were before or after the verses revealed in surah Noor. Hence, these examples do nothing to resolve the issue. On the contrary, there are some ahadith that do show the fact that such punishments were prescribed based upon the injunctions of earlier scriptures."

Perhaps you should say that although this punishment is there but you don't agree that this is a just punishment. Well you are at liberty to think whatever you consider is appropriate. I have stated the facts. You find them logical or illogical its all upto you. And by this formula the whole collection of Hadith stands unreliable.

Shams Zaman     Pakistan

My dear bro Shams Zaman thanks again for your kind response. Probably it is not proper to ask "If that was the case then God would have responded immediately to stop Prophet and would have clearly said so." simply because of gradual nature of Quran revelations. With the availability of clear verses from Quran, it is highly improbable that the messanger of God could have gone against them. The only possiblity then left out is that these incidents must have been before the revelation of verses in surah Noor especially when it is now clearly known that punishment of stoning was prevailing among the then Jews around the society as clearly evident from some of the hadith literature. Therefore, it is in this sense, that this punishment could have simply been imported from them, in the absence of any other commandments by Allah by that time.

Another dimension to this issue is the legal superiority of Quranic injunctions over the hadith literature and not the vice versa. Meaning thereby that hadith literature supplements the Quranic injunctions rather than supplant them. On the basis of evidence provided thus far, I think, the punishment of stoning is not justifiable on any Islamic pretext. This is the view which is logical and not merely based upon faith. Of course, this view is also revisable but only when more evidence to the contrary can be presented. Till that time, I hope one would not jump to the conclusions but walk through it with open mind and wisdom.

Alaikoam Salam

Lets face a fact any book can and will be rewritten many times and the Quran will be rewritten too.  Inshallah and soon!

This book of life must be rewritten so excellent improvements in guidance may be recorded and shared.

It is not haram to say so as it is the will of Allah that it be so.

Essentially all the stories, Surah's and Ayats in the Quran need to be revisited and considered very carefully and brought up to date.

The reason is that some guidance in the Quran and Bible may cause more harm than good and must be brought up to date as I mentioned.

People must be informed of the updates and the Imams must adjust their teaching methods accordingly to accommodate the new improvements.

People with questions on the updates need ask their Imam, Scholars and Educators.

Most importantly the Human Rights Act need be one of the corner stones of the New Quran.

This is all of course my belief and opinion take what you will leave what you will.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anne quick question I don't believe I've asked you this before but if I haveif you may, allow me to go back to the question: Are you Muslim?

If you can lease answer that.

Second is if you are, then you would agree, that any text from God especially considered the word of God shouldn't be said by mere mortals that it should be rewritten if that is so, then there would the presumption of God's fallibility. True mankind can receive such revelation and corrupt text through their own interpretation. So not to derail this topic I'd like for you to evaluate yourself when you think about this.

Alaikoam Salam

Yes I am Muslim and then some.

It is not that Allah is faulted it is that Mankind is evolving and is ready for a more updated word from Allah, not for just some of the people but all of the People.

All life is ever evolving and so hense the word of Allah, God, the Creator.

Though I might add some quotes are seemingly unchangeable such as do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

In my belief system there is always room for improvement and we are worthy of such effort.

To say that there will never be more word from Allah is false as every time we open our mouths and speak it is Allah speaking in part is it not for we are in the body of the being of Allah.

He knows and understands all things and He is raising the bar for Mankind to arise to.

Mankind is voice for Allah, God , the Creator, We are His hands for doing, His feet for going and with Us His task can be made light though We have a pretty huge task at hand but We can do it.

Namely create Heaven within each of Us, within Our Families, Our Communities, Our Nations and Our World!

Inshallah We will have a further sorting out of People into resolution Groups Inshallah to see where we have gone wrong, where we are doing well and to inspire Us what we can achieve.

At the same time as working on this undertaking we have a task ourselves and that is namely finding Heaven within Us so we may share this heaven with others by example.

As humans striving for goodness and perfection may take some conscious effort along with education, training, counseling and counsultation.

As well Prayer and Living Prayer will be most benifitial as will  a Personal Sacride Hajj or Pilgrimage to Our Lives, Our Families, Our Communities, Our Nations and World seeing where we need education, guidance and encouragement and support and where we can recieve this and where in turn we may be of service with the strengths we have such as volunteering or community service or service to our families.

We do not often think of service to our families though this may be as simple as helping around the house or getting the education, training, counseling we need to be empowered to be our best and in our success we help our family.

Imagine a society where all members are empowered to be their best and no one falls through the cracks or becomes lost.

Utopia say some however I believe we can achieve this Heaven within and on Earth for everyone and all beings seen and unseen along with affirmations of faith.

By suggesting a rewrite of the Holy Books I am not suggesting we through the baby out with the bath water as an old expression says.

I am suggesting some things in the Holy Books do not encourage thoughtful or good conduct and could be brought update.

Think of it at one time man ate his food cold until Allah inspired him to use fire.

Then he went from using wood to coal, then gas and oil and now electricity, microwaves, Solar and BBQ's.

So it is with the word of Allah there is always New Improved Messages from Him.

As human though challenging our comfort zones and apathy can be rather a challenge but moving and motivating the world can be done, it takes repetition.

Mahssallah

May we all be up to the challenge Inshallah!

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anmne with all due respect, I believe that how you are presenting Islam is overly poeticizing the theological concepts that are firmly concrete. The whole concept of the Qur'an is that it is unchanging and is the infallible word of God but, yet, you keep statting that humanity is evolving. Even from a biological standpoint this is false so what are humans evolving from? Are you saying because we are changing as a whole society that the laws of the Qur'an are outdated?

The Qur'an is the last revelation of God plain and simple therefore humans are not ready or need any newer revelation! If you are a practicing Muslim then you would know this and wouldn't dispute it. I sense you are a pluralist and that is not bad but what you lack from what you're posting is the understanding of Islamic philosophy. I would hope rather say you are Muslim and then some reflect on the core principles of Islam.

Salam Alaikoam

Though the Quran in itself as a book may seem changeless or we may want it to be changeless history has shown that all religious texts go through some revisision of some sort as time passes.

Such as new laws, ways of handling tests or challenges or difficulties.

It is like me saying there is only one recipe for soup or choclate cake when we know there are thousands.

I do not believe it is a sin to say the Quran or any Holy Book may need so revision or be updated!

This is my belief.

Education, Counseling, Consultation with Prayer and Living Prayer along with a Sacride Pilgrimage (Personal Hajj) made to your own life, your family, your community, your nation , your world is true Justice.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anne again with all due respect, you are making a new religious belief orperhaps a sect which is along the lines of Baha'i. You made the mtetaphorical example of using "the belief that there is only one recepie of choclate cake when there are thousands" is flawed. From your post obvious you believe in one God, so let me say how do you hold the belief that there is only one God when there are others who believe there are thousands of gods?

Sure that as time progrss mankind too, will progress but as you mention in contradictory fashion that the Qur'an is changeless hence why need to update with a newer version? No offense, but not only is this somewhat blasphemy to the true concept of Islam but somwhat sacreligious. Allah states clearly that this is a revelationof him where past revelations have been obscured by mankind's ignorance. How you answer beckons the thought that perhaps God updates the same message over and over. We don't need a newer message. The message is clear: There is only one God.

I however agree that we as humans can change but you areseriously messing with dangerous thoughts here.

Alaikoam Salam

Brother and sisters too!

As I see it all Life is an expression of the evolution of Islam there for there are no sects it is simply other ways of expressing Islam.

Even Mohammed PBUH did not start a new religion he reaffirmed the foundations that have been since the beginning of time called Islam.

Some people may want to call their religion Christian, Jewish, Bahai, Hindu, Seik however it all streams from Allah and it is all  expressions of the evolution of Islam!

What Mankind does with the Message (S) is quiet another question is it not.

How you express Islam and others express Islam may be different however the foundations stay the same ie do unto others as you would have them do unto you, care for yourself and the poor, do not kill anyone, do not covet your neighbours wife or property.

However the law an eye for an eye is out dated.

To say we invent a new religion is false however what each of us does regardless of who we are is we re-invent Islam according to our lives and even those who say they adhere to the traditional version of Islam still adjust Islam to meet their and their Family and Community needs.

There is nothing wrong with this practice as in developing strategies that work for us we become healthier, happier and the spin off created by our well being benifits ourselves, our families, communities our Nation and World.

So yes Islam is being rewritten if you will and it will always be rewritten for Islam is in a constant state of perfecting itself through our efforts inshallah a juste people and juste society will emmerge inshallah!

The only dangerous ground I see is saying Islam is written in stone! Islam has been, is and will always evolve and become better as will Mankind, we have to the world continuing as we know it depends on this evolution of Islam.

There is hope and it begins with each one of us becoming educated, healthier, happier, more caring and compassionate and more environmentally conscious and friendly.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Anne what you're saying does not solve the issue.

I'm all for pluralism but not everyone can see a correlation between a humanist ideology and monotheistic pluralism. Yes I believe that we all as humans can make advancements as a people but to say that the laws of the Qur'an are outdated is ridiculous!

For instance your only example is "an eye for an eye"

What about the laws of inheritence?

What about the laws regarding orphans?

What about the laws regarding men and women in marriage?

Surely such laws are common and relate to our times and you cannot sit there and justify their demise with "newer" laws just because you feel that as a society we change. Again you have yet to address my comment when I mentioned about the belief in One God. You say there are many paths but Buddhist don't even share the path of monotheism so how can the end be the same? Buddhist in the orthodox belief don't even believe in a heaven but reincarnation and the eventual demise of thr self once a state of ultimate knowledge is attained which is called Nirvana. Sikhs perhpas share similar goals as Muslims, Jews and Christians but theologically and according to our doctrines eschology we do not have the same goals per say.

Perhaps on the humanitarian level yes all religions strive to attain peace and tranquolity among other humans but the type of pluralism you preach is not orthodox Islam. God has set the laws in motion in the universe so the decree is either obey what we comprehend mentally or disobey but by no menas should we say that God's laws are outdated. The onlky possible for laws to be renewed is a newer revelation and a newer revelation is the infinite knowledge obtained by a newer prophet, something in which is not possible since Muhammad has declared he is the last.

You say we are all prophets. Perhaps the mechanism in which we receive revelation yes we are no different than Muhammad or Jesus because we all possess the same biological mechanisms of reception. But, not all of us has the mental capacity to withstand the infinite wisdom of God, hence the unique prophetic missions. We all cannot carry the same duties as prophets of old had carried. We are not trained. We are not taught from birth the duties of prophethood nor do we have the consistent wisdom nor the spiritual desire. So Anne, I understand your noble ideology of p[luralism and everyone is right but everyone is not right. Just like there is one law in the universe and one end to our path so must to be the word of God and the being of God.

Alaikoam Salam

Brother

I am not saying all laws need revision just some though revision may mean saying the same Message but in a new formate.

As for being trained to be a Prophet neither was Mohammed PBUH, Jesus, Moses or any of the Prophets it is not like you can go to a scholl LOL to become a Prophet technical old style, though the new style of Prophets sure everyone can recieve training, education, counseling, consultation to become a wonderful Messenger for Allah and non of us is exempt.

That is why I have been working at calling everyone to the table for a Great Sorting Out Debriefing session (S) to see where we have errored, where we need guidance, education and training and where we can recieve this education, counseling and consultation in the best formate for each of us to comprehend and understand and easily impliment in our daily lives as well as where we on our own journey to Peace may assist others on thier journey as well.

I have covered much of the idea in other threads so I will not repeat it further unless requested to do so though you can look for the web page the Renewal of Islam and a Call to an Inter Faith Education, Counseling and Consultation Jihad.

Everybody though Moses was radical, everyone thought Jesus was radical and everyone thought Mohammed PBUH was radical.

So in my call to this Inter Faith Education, Counseling and Consultation Jihad or Great Sorting Out of Mankind into Debreifing Groups for Resolutions I am asking everyone to grasp they too are voice for Allah and the well being of one must be the well being of all not just some.

I am not suggestioning anyone start a New Religion at all what I am suggesting is everyone consider how they want to express their spiritual selves and life and does this method or process empower them and others to be there best and if not then seek out community agencies such as churches or Mosques and redfine how they want to practice their Faith.

This does not always mean that a person has to adhere completely to any one religion or spiritual path for they may choose to combine a number of them that best suits them and their family circumstances.

Also should anyone choose to adhere to a formal religion completely this is their freedom as well no one is here to say what is right for them only that here are some practices, prayers, guidance that may assist you on your journey.

Leave the rest up to them and leave room for improvements in the Spiritual path of their choice so that the Faith may grow abundantly.

That is why brother I say we are the hidden Imam, the Medhi because one can never know all Mankind there for we are the Hidden One.

These are just my ponderings your welcome to take or leave them as you will.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Salam Alaikoam

Brother further on your thoughts.....

Islam itself is not fundamentalist it is the people no Islam is fluid and everyone has freedom if given such freedom to choose how they will express their Islam.

Though obviously the recipe given for expressing this Islam may be found in many Spiritual paths.

As an example I have 5 sisters and 2 brothers we all grewup in the same Faith and since growing up we have all choose the path that best suits each of us and our families.

We are all Muslims or practice Islam however the recipe may be from the United Church of Canada, the Trinity Church, the Sunni or Shia Mosque or other Faith Practices that help us be more kind and mindful of ourselves, others and the world.

By choosing our own path we have not all gone astray as one might believe no we have found what suits our needs and what we can abide by.

None of us judges the other for thier choices.

I believe one has to give people credit for finding their own path yet certainly set some excellent recipe paths or guides for their choice.

Like I said Islam is far more than you think.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Then I ask you why do the Bahai's not agree with me?  LOL

I agree not all I have written of is new just presenting it differently possibly though some of it is new.

What do you know of the Bahai Faith?  Just curious....

Salam Alaikoam

Everyone is intitled to their beliefs and opinions and it is for the world to provide excellence in education, counseling and consultation so we may become the best we can be and choose wisely the path we want to follow and whether we feel others might benifit from our choosen path too.

It is not about reinventing the wheel it is about makeing the wheel better and appropriate for each user or vehicle.

Of course I am always learning new things so will add more as they appear.

Salam

Peace be with you and your Family, Community and Nation.

Inshallah may anyone in distress have a safe and welcoming place to find solutions for their challenges that empower them and empower the Family, Community and Nation as well.

I am not asking for a New World Order just for the World to become more ordered so to speak and at the very least a place where fear is an abnormality not a common occurance.

All we can do is our best to be our best and to do this we need excellence in education, self determination and a little or a lot of Prayer and especially Living Prayers so no ones vision of a healthy, good life may become an everyday reality.

Besides Hope what we need most is cooperation and access to excellence in education, training, counseling and consultation and places to pray without fear of being judged because we do not follow the path another chooses.

We have a critical chance here to revolutionize the world inshallah ie empowering everyone to be their best through the things I mention education, counseling, consultation and resolution teams or groups sorted out ie the Great Sorting Out of Mankind (Surah 99, 1-8)

In this effort I have been working on my own life and assisting others as and where I can and this encourages me that I and of course you and others can make a difference.

Also education in how to deal with stress, education in parenting skills, good communications skills, respecting boundaries, planning for the future and the how to cope with the many stages and levels of sexual frustration and the hazards and warning signs so as to prevent rapes, child molestation and sexual exploitation of children and young adults and adults. 

Essentially the value of developing a good relationship with yourself and changing any negative attitudes or behaviors so as to have a healthy relationship so no one need suffer abuse of any kind.  Mankind needs to learn to care for themselves, their Families, Others and to have sexual relations that are meaningful and with dignity and a relationship based on trust and truth not fear or abuse or taking advantage of someone for sexual purposes because all they think they have left is to sell their bodies.

Sexual relations are meant to be between two people who are on an equal footing and one is not over powering or abusing the other.  Though I belive in the instituion of marriage there are times and places where things do happen and if they do at least have the decency to treat the one your having relations with as heaven sent and with all the respect you cahn find within yourself because truely they are giving you a precious gift of their time and soul so treat it gently and with respect if you must do it out side of marriage or even within a marriage.

One more thing any of us can having feelings of being attracted to the same sex and this does not mean we are crazy, demented what it does mean is that we are vulnerable and we need to be careful as well as make sure we are caring for our own sexual health ie pleasuring self when the need arises though in moderation especially while we are waiting for the parytner we really want in our life not just a flash dance.

  There is Hope.

Sincerely

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Dear Brothers and Sisters! As-Salam-o-Alikum!

Well the discussion seems to be shifting from the topic. But let me say few things very candidly. Sister Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi may be a very good human being but she is not at all a Muslim. A MUSLIM by definition is not a symbol but one who submits himself to ALLAH, to his instructions/orders and follows a certain set of beliefs/principles. So merely by saying that I am a muslim I won�t become a one. Similarly one, who doesn�t believe in God, can not be termed as a man of a religion but an atheist. Similarly once sister Habibi questions the authority and correctness of Quran she seizes to be a MUSLIM. In fact she comes to the tribe of one who denies the truth (meaning Kufar). Unfortunately, the word is usually used as in a negative tone I am using in its literal sense Kafir the one who purposely denies the truth. Moreover she is totally confused, in one post she suggests something and in the other she denies it. She wants re-interpretation of all those laws which doesn�t suits her. Islam is to change oneself according to will of Allah and not try to change God according to own whims.   

There are more than 6 billion people living in this world so who would decide what is right and what is wrong as human reason is always prone to miscalculation and misjudgement. And if we follow the idea of sister Habibi then we would be having at least 6 million different set of principles (if not 6 billion) and all groups claiming to be right. Like I may say that drinking/smoking in public is fine, or Gay marriage is my right or I may insist on driving on the left hand drive while others may insist on right hand. I may say that the murderer should not be given the capital punishment while the other group would disagree with that. So to achieve a homogeneous socity there has to be a divine order.

I had already asked the respected lady that if �MANKIND IS VOICE OF GOD� then why there is so much of disparity and the one who is using abusive language is also speaking on the behalf of God?? And if not then who is to decide that what is from God and what is from his/her whims?

The principles of humanity, communities, individuals etc which are being so much stressed upon by you are already given in Quran and Hadith. Only what you have to do is to find a little time and read them. If you read the Quran with sincerity INSHALLAH you will be guided to the truth.     

Dear Brother Ahmed Joya!

I am not trying to say that you should conform to my way of thinking, but just presenting as to why I think this way. If it sounds convincing its fine even if it doesn�t its still fine.

First of all this is a fact that whenever the Prophet had intended or performed anything against the Will of Allah he was immediately corrected. At least this happened 7-8 times (according to my knowledge).

First once there was difference of opinion after the Battle of Badar, as to how should be the prisoners of war should be dealt with? And the decision was taken to make them prisoners against the will of Allah. (Narrated in Sura 8, verses 67-70), �67. It is not appropriate for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. 68. Were it not for an ordinance from Allah that had already gone forth, surely there would have befallen you a great chastisement for what you had taken to. 69. Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 70. O Prophet! Say to those of the captives who are in your hands: If Allah knows anything good in your hearts, He will give to you better than that which has been taken away from you and will forgive you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.�

Second once Hazrat Abdullah-bin-Maktoom (RA) who was blind, came to Prophet and interrupted him while he was talking to non-believers and so Prophet snubbed him, Prophet was immediately corrected (narrated in Sura 80, verses 1- 11) �1. He frowned and turned (his) back, 2. Because there came to him a blind man. 3. And what would make you know that he would purify himself, 4. Or become reminded so that the reminder should profit him? 5. As for him who considers himself free from need (of you), 6. To him do you address yourself. 7. And no blame is on you if he would not purify himself. 8. And as to him who comes to you striving hard, 9. And he fears, 10. From him will you divert yourself. 11. Nay! surely it is an admonishment.�

Thirdly, after returning from Battle of Tabuk once Prophet, on insistence of  (Hypocrites) Munafiqeens was likely to offer prayers in Mosque Zarar, (narrated in Sura 9, verses 107-109) �107 And those who built a mosque to cause harm and spread unbelief to cause disunity among the believers and make it an outpost for those who had earlier made war against Allah and His Apostle; and they will certainly swear: We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars. 108. Never stand in it; certainly a mosque founded on piety from the very first day is more deserving that you should stand in it; in it are men who love that they should be purified; and Allah loves those who purify themselves.�

Fourthly, once Prophet swore in front of his wife that from this day onwards honey is HARAM (illegal) for him and Allah forbid him, (narrated in Sura 66, verses 1-3), �1. O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 2. Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.�

Fifth once Prophet desired that Allah should send down some miracle to satisfy the demands of Jews who were insisting on a miracle like of other Prophets, (narrated in Sura 6, verses 33-37) �...�...35. And if their aversion is hard on you (O Muhammad), then if you can seek an opening to go beneath into the earth or climb a ladder to ascend up to heaven so that you should bring them a sign (miracle) and if Allah had willed He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance (by force), therefore be not of the ignorant.........�

Sixth once Prophet offered prayers of forgiveness (Nimaz-e-Janaza) of Abdullah-bin-Ubbi (famous hypocrite) on insistence of his son who was a devout Muslim, (narrated in Sura 9, verses 80-84), �80. Ask forgiveness for them or do not ask forgiveness for

them; even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times, Allah will not forgive them; this is because they disbelieve in Allah and His Apostle, and Allah does not guide the transgressing people�.... 84. And never offer prayer for any one of them who dies and do not stand by his grave; surely they disbelieve in Allah and His Apostle and they shall die in transgression.�

Seventh once Prophet repeatedly prayed for the forgiveness of Uncle Abu-Talib, (narrated in Sura 9, verse113-114) �113. It is not appropriate for the Prophet and those who believe that they should ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even if they are their near relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are inmates of the flaming fire�..� (Also narrated in Bukhari and Muslim).

So let us not forget that Prophet is always and directly under the supervision and guidance of Allah and whenever his is bound to go wrong he is corrected immediately. This is also narrated in the following verses:  

(Ch 22, verse-52), �And We did not send before you any apostle or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.� 

(Sura 4, verses 65-67), �But no! by your Lord! they are not believers (in reality) until

they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of dispute/disagreement among them, and then do not find any strain in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission. 66. And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except for a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them); 67. And then We would certainly have given them from Ourselves a great reward. 68. And We would certainly have guided them to the right path�.

(Sura 3, verse-161), �And it is not possible for a prophet that he should act unfaithfully; and he who acts unfaithfully shall bring that in respect of which he has acted unfaithfully on the day of resurrection; then shall every soul be paid back fully what it has earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.� There is no equivalent of the arabic word �Yaghulla� which means to convey something or to do something wrongly against the will of God. The nearest is unfaithfully.

(Sura 8, verse-17), �So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.�

(Sura  59, verse-7), � Whatever Allah has restored to His Apostle from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Apostle, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retribution.�

(Sura 53, verses 1-5), �1. Swearing by the star when it goes down. 2. Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; 3. Nor does he speak out of desire. 4. It is naught but revelation that is revealed, 5. The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him.�

(Sura 69, verses 43-48), �43. It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. 44. And if he (Muhammad) had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, 45. We would certainly have seized him by the right hand, 46. Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta. 47. And not one of you could have withheld Us from him. 48. And most surely it is a reminder for those who guard (against evil).�

Secondly, what about the punishment of thief? Quran says that �Whether man or women, both the hands of a thief should be chopped off, this is the reward for their earnings and an exemplary punishment for them from Allah, and indeed Allah is mighty the most wise� (Sura Maida-5, verse 38). By this principle we are suppose to chop both the hands of a thief. But Hadith specifies that the punishment of chopping the hand is to be given once the value of theft items exceeds 10 Dirhams (in those times) now its equal to approx 180 dollars. Moreover, it is not to be given on the theft of food items (vegetables, fruit and wheat), to a person who is needy had nothing to eat for 3 days. This means Hadith is also wrong here too and by your formula everyone�s hands should be cut whether needy, poor or a petty thief.

 Shams Zaman  Pakistan

Salam Alaikoam

Brother Shams Zaman who are you to judge how much of a Muslim I am or am not? 

As for Kufar with all the Suicide bombers and terrorism I'd say there are some serious Kufar among the brothers as killing or harm innocent people even in war is forbidden.

That is why they say to save a life is to have saved all mankind or have I quote wrong?

I am by far not Kufar as you put it and I would caution anyone to label another as Kufar without looking in the mirror first!

In all my pondering and thoughtfulness I have never once purposefully done anthing to harm Islam or anyone Muslim!

Until a few years ago I saw Islam as you do however my eyes and mind have been opened to the whole Universe of Islam and what it means and where it will take us Inshallah in the future and certainly using lamb excuses like labeling someone Kufar just because they say or mention things you do not agree with does under no cercumstances make them KUFAR!

I request an apology!

After all if name calling is your way of coping then take some time out and appraise exactly what you do believe versus what you have been spoon fed!

I had to laugh I went to Halika yesterday and the sheik had the nerve to say that brothers who have many relations outside before marriage still want a wife who wears Hijab.

Having worn Hijab on occassions it is hot, itchy and uncomfortable in hot rooms and I think that my husband when I marry should wear one too to cover his handsome face and beard so no woman may ponder his beauty and be attracted now would that not look sweet and oh yeah have to wear long loose robes covering all his body.

Actually I believe that the time has come for the people of Islam (all People) to respect people regardless of what they wear or do not wear as if Allah wanted us to wear Hijab He would have born us with it!

Women deserve respect we do not want husbands that have been taking the dignity or buying relations from other women, we want them to learn from each other and not be a virgin prize like a toaster at the bank as your door prizes.

Who are these women or men or children they are buying relations from and why is there dignity not worth more than after calling them Zina?

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Very Much a Muslim Mahssallah and a Christian and yes maybe more!

Shams God's peace and blessings to you Ameen!

I have to agree with Annie we must restrain fro  judging others even though their views are different than the orthodox principles of Islam. Although myself  I disagree with some stuff she says but her heart nonetheless is in the right place and I believe that God perhaps has a plan for her, Allahu Alim! Buit we must be cognizant of God and understand that all power and control is due to him and only to him we return for our judgement

My dear bro Shams Zaman, thanks for your reply. I have following to submit for your analysis

First of all this is a fact that whenever the Prophet had intended or performed anything against the Will of Allah he was immediately corrected.

Here, my dear bro, gradual nature of revelations of quranic injunctions doesn't support the idea of "against the Will of Allah" otherwise whole Quran would have revealed in one instance. Isn't it?

Your second example is also not sufficient, when you say

what about the punishment of thief?

Kindly bear in mind that I never denied the authority of Ahadith but to put them in their right perspective with regard to Quran. Indeed Allah knows the best.

Alaikoam Salam

Thank you Israfil for a positive comment, your are right my heart is in the right place.

As for judgement it is true we judge others and ourselves all the time and a lot of time without thinking about it that we are doing it.

True we are judged on that final day when we stand before Allah and our lives are recounted for us and we meet our judgement and punishment or bonuses it it were.

As I mention in my signiture, judgement day can be born in each moment and a time to survey our lives, our families, our communities, our Nation and World and see where we need guidance, education, counseling or consultation to resolve any challenges we may have.

I call this journey a sacride Pilgrimage or Hajj.  For we must view our lives and the lives of others including the seen and unseen as sacride and worthy of respect, caring and consideration.

I believe this sacride journey, Hajj, Pilgrimage is part of the Great sorting out talked about in Surah 99, 1-8 when we will be sorted into groups and shown what we have done wrong and what we have done right and though it does not mention it I believe that is when we will recieve education, counseling, consultation to resolve and challenges we have and to rectify any negative behaviors we have.  Though this process is already happening on a smaller scale I believe it could be worked or put into play in a bigger way Inshallah with a Inter Faith Call to an education, counseling, copnsultation with Personal Hajj to our lives our families..... and maybe just maybe create in the end a heaven a little closer even if only in our personal lives and community.

Mahsallah may it be so!

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Dear Brother Ahmed !

Thanks for your comments and I hope our discussion will keep the positive direction and I am really obliged for your efforts and time. However although I completely agree that Hadith should supplement Quran but I thinks the cases which I presented does not conflict with Quranic decisions. I never said or intended to say that you deny Hadith because infact you quoted the Hadith and if I said something to this amount I appologise for that.

And my dear brother Israfel! I indeed absolutely agree with you that we must not judge or make judgement on behalf of God. But this doesn't mean that we stop calling spade a spade. But here this is not the case, I tried to convey my point but perhaps I was unable to do that. See for example there are some basic principles and belifs to be called as Muslim. Quran is among one of them. If I don't believe Quran or Allah or Prophet I can not be called as a Muslim under any circumstances. Islam does not accept any apologetic approach to these basic principles, there are other thing on which the difference of opinion can exist like for example of mine and Ahmed Joya. And both can't be termed as wrong because we both hold the ground on certain accepted points. But as far as the basic principles are concerned there can't be any sort of compromise.

So if I am standing in daylight it would be rediculous to say that we can't judge that whether its day or night, its certainly DAY. Similarly once sister Habibi does not accept Quran as the final word of God, she under any circumstances can not be termed as MUSLIM.

Shams Zaman  Pakistan.   

Alaikoam Salam

I think there is always room to question any book brother other wise we would not be human and we would be blindly lead.

Freedom to question is part of Life and part of being a Muslim and why should we not ask questions as that means we are doing our job as Muslims in my opinion.

Otherwise you end up with things like suicide bombers, they obviously have not asked the right questions have they?

I think their victims would like to ask questions too and why not, they and we all have the right and freedom to do so.

Islam is not so lame as it cannot answer or bare to answer questions from the people.

Asking people to folllow blindly without question does not always work for the best interests of everyone.

So no brother I am a Muslim and very much so and the Islam I believe in is far more accepting of questions from the heart than your Islam appears to be.

After all it is us who control Islam not the other way around.

Islam may form the base or foundation and it is our job to work with this, change it if we have to to meet the new future challenges and the needs of our families.

Islam is not as you would have it a block of stone, unchangeable unworkable no Islam is fluid like water and is ever evolving and flowing from it's source.

Questions is how society grows and developes, questions are good and make us think not just be spoon fed whatever someone want to feed us, we can ask where the food came from, why, how, who made it, what is in it, where will it go, can you keep it for a long time etc..

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Dear Sis Anne, let me send my few words upon your last message where you say "I think there is always room to question any book brother other wise we would not be human and we would be blindly lead." It is perfectly ok to question the Quran for answers in understanding it with your own learning of it, however, it is a different thing  not to accept the Quran as the book of Allah. In this context, I have never seen any questions that has been raised by you on this forum to understand or misunderstand. In fact, I did highlight, in some discussion, about your concepts totally out of the book. I shall appreciate your questioning based upon your own reading of the book rather than from any other source.

Now concerning the rest of your post it is easier to realise that Quran is not the only source of guidance in Islam. Other sources are authentic sunnah of Prophet Mohammad and the Ijtihad to resolve issues of any nature in this world. Therefore, though not Quran, but the only thing that may change with time is the "Ijtihad" of the people varying both temporally as well as spatially. If there are clear Quranic verses on the issue, it is really not "according to Islam" to take any position in contrary to these verses. However, such is not the case with those issues that were based on Ijtihad only. I hope one would not mix the two in general understanding of Quran vs Islam. 

Dear Sister Habibi!

You have misread me once you say that I oppose that we should ask questions. I think the reason why we Muslims have become stagnant is that we have stopped asking questions and finding solution to them. But yourc case appears as different to me you are denying a thing without any evidence or popper reason. Quran says, "Will not they then ponder on Quran? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found lot of contradictions." (4:82). The orders of using reason and sense has been many a times used in Quran.

The sucide bombers were not born due to your mentioned reasons. No one want to give his/her life in such a manner. It is only a desprate measure once you have lost your loved ones and you have been denied justice and you have no hope to get justice so this is why one blows himself up. I am no authority to comment on the valadity of the sucide bombings only what I know is that you cannot kill yourself just for revenge or someone who is innocent.

Shams Zaman

Alaikoam Salam

Good points.

There is always another way to resolve a situation and suicide bombing is not one of the solutions.

The question must be asked why some people behave in this way?

Is their community life that desperate they feel no hope and give up in dispair.

Maybe we should move this to another thread your thoughts.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi