Nima wrote: Simple question, what does Islamic teaching say about ltruistic agnostics? Or what does it say about people who have no spiritual or religious belief yet are good people?

An agnostic does in fact have "spiritual" or even "religious" beliefs. I have even met atheists who insist they have "spiritual" beliefs.

If a person is altruistic it means they have a strong concept of what is morally correct. That in and of itself, it could be argued, is a spiritual belief.

The matter is wether someone believes in Allah or not.

"5:119 Allah said : "This is the day on which the truthful will profit from their truthfulness: theirrs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- abiding in it: Allah is pleased over them, and they are pleased with him. That is the great filicity.

How do you conclude these verses where "direct to the point of the question"?

I did not hear Nima say wether a person who is an "truistic agnostic" has faith in The One God or not....

I don't think many of you understand what agnostic means nor does the Qur'an specifically address agnosticism. Agnosticism basically is someone who does no deny nor advocate the belief in God. An agnostic does not reject God but does not advocate the existence of God either, its sort of like the wanderer in the sense. Now as for the typo in my original post its mant to say 'Altruism' which is a person who is inherently good or does good deeds. Now an agnostic does not reject God or the signs of Allah perhaps an Agnostic hasn't reached an area of spirituality. When religionist experience God its to my understanding that its an ability to open up the sensations of the human who, in reality experiences everything beyond their own natural senses. For examples a spiritual person will see abstract things in nature, paintings etc.

How does the Qur'an address this?

why would you expect the Qur'an to address this issue? It is far removed from the purpose of the Qur'an, to expound the final Revelation to Humanity from the Creator.

Muslims are enjoined to treat all people kindly and fairly as long as they do not practice oppression. Beyond that there is no real discussion of such questions.

And I still disagree with your proposal that an agnostic by definition has no "spiritual" beliefs. As I said in my previous post, I have known atheists who claimed they had spiritual beliefs. And for that matter, Buddhism is an "atheistic" religion, yet no one would argue Buddhists have no spiritual beliefs.

Community wrote:   How do you conclude these verses where "direct to the point of the question"? I did not hear Nima say wether a person who is an "truistic agnostic" has faith in The One God or not....

Are you now clear after the explanation about agnostics? In view of this definition, which I happened to know (not to boast about this), the Quranic reference is quite closer to the question. That is to say, its not the deeds in this world that would have any meaning, if (remember, a big IF) they have rejected the messangers or the signs of Allah. Then in the same explanation, I did cautioned not to generalize this verse on to those who don't reject God (as the agnostics are). I hope this make sense. Indeed Allah knows the best.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Community wrote:   How do you conclude these verses where "direct to the point of the question"? I did not hear Nima say wether a person who is an "truistic agnostic" has faith in The One God or not.... Are you now clear after the explanation about agnostics? In view of this definition, which I happened to know (not to boast about this), the Quranic reference is quite closer to the question. That is to say, its not the deeds in this world that would have any meaning, if (remember, a big IF) they have rejected the messangers or the signs of Allah. Then in the same explanation, I did cautioned not to generalize this verse on to those who don't reject God (as the agnostics are).

It is more complicated than simply saying agnostics have rejected God. In Christian society many are never exposed to any religion other than Christianity, which contains blatantly irrational propositions (such as the adaptation of the pagan concept of scapegoating). If a person never knows any form of religion other than this, I don't think you can put that person in the same category as someone who sees the simple and pure message of the Qur'an and rejects it. Most American agnostics I have spoken to are actually rejecting Christianity, not God. I also think this is why so many people are converting to Islam in the west: they are being exposed to religion stripped of the paganism and irrationality of Christianity.

I think Sufi is correct in as much as most agnostics that I associate with simply don't know what they believe.  So, they label themselves as agnostic while they search for the truth of their hearts.  Where Athiests annoy me, agnostics sadden me.  They don't know their loving God and they live in limbo when it comes to the end of their mortal lives. God understands we are imperfect and there is alot out there to confuse and lead astray. 

I know many good people who are lost.  My friend Mark is one, he was raised Catholic, but after Bosnia and witnessing the victims there, he questions if God exists and how he could let people kill each other like that.  I have to believe that there is Mercy from God for those lost souls who have not received his message, whatever that may be.

Altruism is wonderful.  To be generous and kind always its a wonderful trait that even religious people should try to be. 

AhmadJoyia wrote: Community wrote:   How do you conclude these verses where "direct to the point of the question"? I did not hear Nima say wether a person who is an "truistic agnostic" has faith in The One God or not.... Are you now clear after the explanation about agnostics? In view of this definition, which I happened to know (not to boast about this), the Quranic reference is quite closer to the question. That is to say, its not the deeds in this world that would have any meaning, if (remember, a big IF) they have rejected the messangers or the signs of Allah. Then in the same explanation, I did cautioned not to generalize this verse on to those who don't reject God (as the agnostics are). I hope this make sense. Indeed Allah knows the best.

Ah ok, i understand that the works of those who deny The Creator, The God will be as dust in the wind in the hereafter. It is because He does not love the ungrateful. But one who does good and wishes to be the best human being he can while aknowledging Allah these their works will resound in the hereafter and they will be rewarded for the best of what they did, The messengers and prophets were not people of pride, and their mission was to call people to faith in One God and do good. Simple and true. Now there are many people i believe who have faith in One God and do not deny any of his messengers or prophet who came with this message of One God and doing good. Unfortunatly the simple truth is not enough for those who who have pride and wish to feel as the superior. How can i put it differently then jelousy. I believe alot of people are looking at those who blow up their religion into something beyond the truth and a cause of division and rivelary.

Thanks for the response all and to each I'll address to you by name

Sufi_Observer: First and foremost I do happen to know what I'm talking about when it comes to being an Agnostic who does not understand the mysteries of spirituality nor can find the reality to understand the spirituality of God in nature, therefore I have trouble summoning that sense in me. I disagree that an Agnostic or an Atheist can believe in spirituality. Because by definition, to be an Atheist and believe in spirituality would be a form of being a deist (which is one who believes in spirituality) to be an atheist and spiritual is contradictory. The individuals you know who claim to be Atheist and spiritualist are confused not atheist at all.

The same rule applies for Agnostic. If I'm unsure on my path in life to choose a particular religious path to find God how am I certain about the spirituality of nature? How do I find spiritual mysticism in nature if I cannot discern what is spiritual and natural? Again those of the individuals you mention are confused not TRUE Atheist or Agostics.

Angela: No offense but it's quite typical for a Christian to be sadden by an Agnostic not finding a god or God because he/she is unsure. I believe in the words of Ghandi there religions as there are people. In Islam you have to have "Islamic beliefs" or in some relation to that in order to obtain tranquility after death. As some of you Muslims mentioned using verses from the Qur'an. As a seeker of some sort of spiritual truth that is not appealing, the same with the Christian doctrine. No offense again Angela I understand you are not certified to proseltyze for your religion I assume otherwise you'd taken a different approach to insult me by saying you are sadden that I dont believe in God.

I find it even more insulting that you guys fail to realize that finding God is an experience that many sometimes don't experience. Sometimes we find God through drugs, sex or whatever sins we indulge. Sometimes we find God in nature, honor or things that are righteous. But regardless these are experiences everyone shares indiviudally. There is no universal timeline on how to experience God, to please spare me the egotistical Christian rhetoric.

Community: Like some of the Muslims so far (with the exclusion of Ahmad Joyia) you don't seem to sound sincere in expressing your Islamic beliefs to your guest. Perhaps I guess you can't find sympathy online. I know a Muslim professor at my University who I talk to during our break hours and although he is sincere and very humble in his beliefs its obviously a bias belief for him to prove or to explain how I can find God past agnosticism. Again I wish all here would understand that what leads up to the truth of things are the experiences (or in mathematical terms, formulas). I would hope you all would respect that rather using insulting comments like sadden and using verses to thump the Agnosticism out of me.

Nima wrote: Thanks for the response all and to each I'll address to you by name Sufi_Observer: First and foremost I do happen to know what I'm talking about when it comes to being an Agnostic who does not understand the mysteries of spirituality nor can find the reality to understand the spirituality of God in nature, therefore I have trouble summoning that sense in me. I disagree that an Agnostic or an Atheist can believe in spirituality. Because by definition, to be an Atheist and believe in spirituality would be a form of being a deist (which is one who believes in spirituality) to be an atheist and spiritual is contradictory. The individuals you know who claim to be Atheist and spiritualist are confused not atheist at all.

Perhaps the agnosticism that you personally follow has no spiritual component, but agnosticism comes in many forms. I think you are simply trying to paint with a broad brush. As I said before, Buddhism is atheistic; there is no Supreme Being. However, Buddhists do have a spirituality.

With all due respect, you may try to define your own conceptions, but trying to project them on others by simply saying they are "confused" without even knowing them is rather condescending. When I was a young man a long time ago I was also an agnostic, and I too had your attitude: it's like I say it is and everyone who disagrees with me is confused. I learned with time that this was simply wrong.

I get the impression you are an angry person at heart. Perhaps you should start asking yourself why.

I wish you success in your search for meaning. I am leaving this forum so I won't be replying to any more posts.

Sorry you feel you have to leave because we came to a disagreement and my apologies if you feel that I was judgemental to your friends or those who you associate with in that respect. But in matters of identity in this case as I had mentioned before that true Atheist do not hold a spiritual belief. Again any true atheist will tell you that they believe that there is nothing "mystical" in this world as Atheism implies. Rather, its the natural and comprehensible world that we live in are the truths they examine and believe in.

As for Agonostics its similar. Most Agnostics like my self are not confused but rather neutral in regards to theistic and atheistic beliefs. As you mentioned Buddhists you incorrectly indicate that Buddhist are atheistic. Not true, not all Buddisht are. Like most religions you have the orthodox and the unorthodox. Although orthodox Buddhist has no god there are others who have deities they worship i.e Buddha himself as a god. Also orthodox Buddhist has no mystical philosophy about the world except that Nirvana is reached through discipline and annihilation.

Nima wrote: Thanks for the response all and to each I'll address to you by name Community: Like some of the Muslims so far (with the exclusion of Ahmad Joyia) you don't seem to sound sincere in expressing your Islamic beliefs to your guest. Perhaps I guess you can't find sympathy online. I know a Muslim professor at my University who I talk to during our break hours and although he is sincere and very humble in his beliefs its obviously a bias belief for him to prove or to explain how I can find God past agnosticism. Again I wish all here would understand that what leads up to the truth of things are the experiences (or in mathematical terms, formulas). I would hope you all would respect that rather using insulting comments like sadden and using verses to thump the Agnosticism out of me.

?

" Islamic beliefs"

I try to trade beliefs for certainties. My faith is basically the wish to achieve peace with my creator, The Ultimate who is therefor One. My faith is submission for the sake of peace.(islaam)

If you wonder how does one achieve peace with The Creator, the answer is really simpel and i am sure you know it.

Bismillah,

Nima, 'Abeer's answer to your post was not correct for you as Brother Ahmad so kindly pointed out to you.  To further his point, and he or someone else can look this up for you, I am sure that I have read that people's good works will not go to waste, and that we will all be rewarded for them.  Now, many Muslims believe and enjoy believeing that lots of people will go to hell for different sins.  However, I am not one of those people.  I don't relish the thought of my personal enemies going to hell at all.  I strongly believe in Allah, SWT's Mercy and Kindness and Forgiveness and I trust that good actions will be rewarded by such a Just, Loving Creator.

Angela was showing kindness to you.  Why would you take that as an insult?  She didn't mean to insult you, so rethink her remarks again. 

There is a show called "Thinking Allowed" in which they had a three part series on Agnostic "beliefs".  There is a ironic, satirical "belief" system that agnostics developed many years ago.  It has Mother and Father God-like entitites and a long, complex story that goes with it.  Their point, however, is satirical and ironic, not true belief.

Sufi was upset about something else, or a few other things because he said so in another post on this forum.  It wasn't you.

Herjiha my apologies if you get any negative impressions, but I just wanted to get some type of understanding on the ethical aspects of Islam. Yes, of course I've heard of some Islamic philosophies on this issue but I wanted to get the people's view on this subject. As I mentioned by Sufi_Observer he made an observation of agnosticism and atheism in using the examples of those he knew. What I meant to say is that the observations are wrong.

To be a "spiritual atheist" is contradictory as Atheist deny any type of mysticism in nature of the universe. The agnostics dont deny but don't associate any theistic beliefs as well. Agnosticism primarily is the neutral approach to religious/spiritual subjects. As for Angela, Ms. Herjihad she made this comment:

"Where Athiests annoy me, agnostics sadden me."

First off why does it annoy/sadden someone against those who hold those personal beliefs? Well obviously it is of the opinions of that person who is sadden and annoyed by another's belief but what bothers me is that this is not the first time I've ran into this. Although it sounds sincere to you herjihad if you examine this comment "on the other end of the shoe" you'd find this offensive. Not everyone shares a monotheistic view or religious/spiritual view of life. I have been condemned and been called "sad" by fellow theologians at the university. The "sad" part about it is most f them are so-called Christians. I don't think Jesus told those whom he wished to convert that their belief was sad, but rather, took the philosophical approach on their beliefs and convinced them how their beliefs were not logical.

Today's evangelist or proseltizers are much more extreme today than they were 2,000 years ago. 

Bismillah,

Nima, I am not very good at convincing people of things.  Really, I am not up to such a challenge.  I mean, I have a hard time "convincing" my kids to wear their jackets on a cold day!

But I can share my point of view.  However, this is a really long, complex topic with many twists and turns.  So, simply put, why not believe in God?  That's really my only thing I have for you to think about.  Why not?

Since you are an agnostic, does that mean that you believe in a superior power which created us, yes?  What is your view of this being who created us?  What interest does he/she/it have in us, if any?  How do you envision this entity's visage, character, scope of power? (You know, just to know where we are starting from.)

If you know that there is always something greater and that He is greater, then i wonder wether you can ever truely understand Him who is greater then anything, even our understanding. (and i can assure you our understanding is really "undeveloped" or as some say "limited")

That is the whole point why religion turns me off to the whole concept. The sciences of temporality makes it difficult to prove the existence of God. I do not say that, by chance all things exist! What I say is that the formulation of certain beliefs is amazingly hard because a) either they are rleigiously motivated or by environment or b) there is a type of influence involved by a).

According to Islam even if I believe in one God yet, do not subscribe to a religious belief it is called an "invention" or I believe the Arabic term is Bid'ah. I find the approach hypocritical especially if the whole concept of Islam is monotheism this is the same with Christianity. As far as for Judaism what I've seen in their faith is that they don't hold any other religious faith in a type of "hell fire" light. They have certain rules from what I understand mankind can follow. these rules are 8 and basic and I guess follow from the Bible. From my understanding so long as you follow those simple 8 rules then you can share in the "world to come."

According to Muslims you have to be Muslim to go to heaven or even if not Muslim of the three monotheistic faiths. But Muslims fail to answer the question of those who do not share that faith. Why should I believe in God who at first was thoughtful enough to create me through the process of generation and then condemn me to hellfire because I don't want to share in "his" religion? Religion. How small of a word is that in comparison to God?

God in my opinion and understanding of course is beyond all human comprehension and although its possible that the world has a spiritual nature its hard when the world has thousands of religious institutions and all say they are right and the other goes to hell. HERES WHAT GETS ME ABOUT ISLAM.

God in Islam is all-merciful

But if I die and Islam is not my religion I go to hell regardless of my good deeds.

Mankind has freewill

But if I convert to Islam out of "fear" for this then my conversion is not sincere thus nullifying my conversion. If I don't convert then I'm condemned to hell if Islam is not my religion.

Yea like I wanna believe in a God like that!

But if I die and "Islam" is not my religion I go to hell regardless of my good deeds.

Why use an arabic word in the middle of an english sentence?

"but if i die and engaging the peace/submission for the sake of peace was not my way(religion?) then my works will be of no value in the hereafter. Is it not the goal of every faithful to gain the peace with The God through their worship and good deeds? Yes having faith in Him means being grateful to Him for He sustains everything and everyone and out of this people should do good works, and if they can not be grateful then they better fear Him and work out of that. And He is The Creator of even fear in mankind and He is most worthy to His creation so He has the most right to ones fear and then He knows best what to do with it.

Bismillah,

Nima, you didn't answer my questions about what YOU think about God.  Could you?

Some people want you to join their faith as a competitive thing so that they can brag about their conversion of you.  I know because I grew up Mormon.  Other people's intentions and motivations don't need to effect our concept of God, and how that concept motivates, inspires, and enlightens us.

So, could you answer the questions I posed above about how YOU personally envision God?

Forgive Herjihad if I didnt answer your question now to answer your inquiry what do I think about God. Well although I don't know if he exist or not but from my own understanding if I were to believe I'd take the approach of an ancient thinker  who states?: "God is beyond comprehension and reason, and because he is beyond reason even pious men are driven mad."

I remember showing my students Mars when its orbit was close to ours about 1 1/2 ago and I remember one student saying "For such a great planet is seems like a spec of light in the telescope." Now imagine a planet roughly over 24,000 miles wide. A simple creation of a designer or Creator and I would imagine such a being not measured in size of course is greater than that! To me I think God is beyond this although I don't know if he is beyond emotion but I know that our understanding of God is beyond our own knowledge. I believe that no religion can contain him. No book can glorify him no matter how true it is. No prayer can exalt God to the fullest. No language is holy enough to relate to God as most Arabic speaking people would think.

No books can be written to exalt God enough no people can express enough perfection to God, nothing. Not because this God is so perfect and so great that even the miniscule human cannot connect but because of the very simple reason of our understanding. I'd just be contempt with believeing in God's existence without religion. I believe that morality is learned not by religion but by environemnt and experience and by our senses. this is what I think

Bismillah,

I decided to answer in the other thread because the other people made relevant comments as well.  Take a peek over there!

Yes, it's hard to choose a religion, and easy to reject one.  As a rebel against preformed forms, I understand this very well. 

I walk to the beat of a different drummer.  Islaam answers many questions for me.  But to follow other people blindly and their interpretations is not in my nature.  I have to contemplate the thing myself.  Shock, dismay say the formal followers of the forms herein!  I didn't reject a faith based on my logical mind to accept one based on illogical conclusions!

When you consider the Quraan for the time it was sent, there could have been nothing more pertinent, vital and beautiful.  When you contemplate the implications of this idea, and how the All-Encompassing Lord who created us designed this book and guided the people of this earth througout our time on it, it leads you to Faith in the Glorious, Merciful Allah.

Now, many disagree with me.  But my faith is for me, not them.  They can follow the shariah as they please.  They can accept every single hadith, saying, from a school of thought as true.  But I don't.  When it doesn't make any sense, it doesn't meet my criteria of acceptance of it!

Who AM I to say this?  Just a simple, humble woman whom God chose to open her heart to Faith in His Existence, As you so eloquently described Him.  That is the most important thing to me, and I believe to God, after all.  As Maryga said in the other thread, we must acknowledge and be grateful to the One, the Eternal Lord, and attribute the beauty of this world and our success in it, to Him.  This leads to piety, humility, kindness, charity, and so many other vital human traits that God has embued us with and blesses us for.

"Allah will exalt those who believe among you, and those who have been granted knowledge to high ranks."

(Qur'an)

"Allah will raise up, to (suitable) ranks and (degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all you do."

(Qur'an, Al-Mujadilah 58:11)

which does not mean blind following, it means following those who the remainder of the scholars have agreed upon.

How do you tell who is rightly guided and who isnt? it is by looking at who is following them, for example you may hear about a person who his followers are claiming he is extremely knowledgable and he knows better than others but when you look at other scholars they do not hold his views in high regard. On the other hand you may come across a scholar who is said to be extrememly knowledgable by his followers and when you look at scholars of his calibr they agree that his opinion is valid even though they them self do not agree with him or follow his method.