Jesus is called The sinless one (surah 19:19), The anointed one (Al masiha) , the word of God (kalimatullah) and the spirit of God (Ruhuallah) (Surah 4:171;surah 3:45 ; surah 5:109) .

This title is not applied to any messenger, prophets and  not even to muhammed. What does that tells of Jesus?

 Adam was created from Dust whereas  the source of Jesus is The word of God (kalimatuallah) and the spirit of God (Ruhallah).If we merely apply  the expression in Surah 58.22 to ruhuallah as god himself to the very same expression given as a title to Jesus in Surah 4.171 for ruhallah, we can only conclude that Jesus is the "divine spirit",

He is called an example http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_43:57 - , teacher http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_2:136 - , a witness http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_5:117 - , righteous http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_6:85_ - , healer http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_5:110 - , mercy http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_19:21_ - , a messenger http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_5:78 - , a prophet http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_33:7 - , a servant http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_4:171 - , a sign http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_19:34_ - , http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_21:91 - , a word of truth http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_19:34_ - , honorable http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_3:45 - , blessed http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_19:32 - , sinless http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_19:19 - , and One confirmed with the Spirit of God http://www.islamicity.com/forum/RTE_textbox.asp?mode=reply&POID=1859&ID=864#Sura_5:109 - .

1. He was sinless (faultless) (Sura 19:19) in contrast to:
2. Adam Suras 2:36, 7:22-23
   Abraham Sura 26:82
   Moses Sura 28:15-16
   Jonah Sura 37:142
   David Sura 38:24-25
   Mohammed Suras 40:55, 47:19, 48:1-2, 33:36-38;
   and all other men;
3. He will return to this earth to judge mankind, (Sura 43:61) Jesus said �The Father judges no none but has given all judgement to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." John 5:22-23

 Can any prophets, messengers or even muhammed match up to that ?

Jesus said "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it, and was glad". And, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" (John. 8:56-58 )

Show us the straight way (Quran-Alfatiha 1:6):

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life for no one comes to the father except through me (John 14:6)

gospelmap wrote: Jesus is called The sinless one (surah 19:19), The anointed one (Al masiha) , the word of God (kalimatullah) and the spirit of God (Ruhuallah) (Surah 4:171;surah 3:45 ; surah 5:109)

My bro gospelmap, probably you missed out what Jesus himself has called for himself, and i.e. the servant of God  and the Prophet of God[19:30]. Here is the fully text from three translators.

019.030
YUSUFALI: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
PICKTHAL: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
SHAKIR: He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;

gospelmap wrote: Jesus is called The sinless one (surah 19:19), The anointed one (Al masiha) , the word of God (kalimatullah) and the spirit of God (Ruhuallah) (Surah 4:171;surah 3:45 ; surah 5:109) .   This title is not applied to any messenger, prophets and  not even to muhammed. What does that tells of Jesus?

We are as muslims are trained to respect the messengers as human with missions and we don't make them more than the simple explanation that there is no distinction between them.

You should not muddy for something that is clear which I am afraid it will make it muddier - and you will regret this. I believe we better leave him as he is - as a unique person for you.

Just know the messengers as they are - as we were tought and don't push it beyond that, unless of course if you want it to.

The word in 19:19 is "zakiiya," which means "pure" or "purified." It is also used to describe the youth in 18:74, where there is clearly no implication of sinlessness. This argument is invalid.

AhmadJoyia wrote: gospelmap wrote: Jesus is called The sinless one (surah 19:19), The anointed one (Al masiha) , the word of God (kalimatullah) and the spirit of God (Ruhuallah) (Surah 4:171;surah 3:45 ; surah 5:109) My bro gospelmap, probably you missed out what Jesus himself has called for himself, and i.e. the servant of God  and the Prophet of God[19:30]. Here is the fully text from three translators. 019.030 YUSUFALI: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; PICKTHAL: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, SHAKIR: He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;

Dear friend ahmad

I am sure we are not quarelling about a christian and muslim debate but searching for the truth as we all are pilgrims in this world seeking to know God.we are trying to maximise our thoughts to know who is God through the revelations granted to us.so being a co-partners in knowing God and his revelations we have to arrive at a point were we unite with God's will and light.so that we can walk in the light.

No one denies that Jesus christ is the prophet and also as servant of God.The bible tells that Jesus had two nature when he was on earth-the human and divine.hence in his human nature he was prophet,slave,servant etc.being in his human nature he prayed,wept,was in pain,worshipped the father etc. but in his divine nature he is indeed ruhualla and kalimatulla.There are many other verses that I gave with the titles above that is in quran. But looking at some of the verses in quran and bible itself Jesus christ does not seems or appears to me only a prophet.It goes beyond his prophethood to his divinity.The bible affirms that Jesus was a prophet too ,but it goes further to tell he is divine too just as we see in the titles given in quran.the titles carries a deep meaning which are not explaind in detail in the quran wereas the bible gives the full expression that to be sinless (pure,faultless,holy),Al masiha, word of God and spirit of God is not just prophethood but requires divinity . this titles was reserved only for Jesus in the quran and the bible.no other prophet or messenger has that title and neither they claimed themselves to be.

My dear and sweet brother gospelmap, thanks for your so much needed reconcilliatory words, especially from among my Christian brothers. It is of my utmost desire that we all must discuss our opinions with utmost regards to other's beliefs and yet put forward our own, thereby respecting other's difference of opinion. On this note, I actually appreciate your thoughts when you say

"I am sure we are not quarelling about a christian and muslim debate but searching for the truth as we all are pilgrims in this world seeking to know God.we are trying to maximise our thoughts to know who is God through the revelations granted to us." Especially in your following sentence, I can't help it but to highly acknowledge the good will gesture that is shown to understand and come to common terms."so being a co-partners in knowing God and his revelations we have to arrive at a point were we unite with God's will and light.so that we can walk in the light."

In that tone, I would like you to let me know from where you want to discuss about Prophet Jesus, from Quran or from Bible? Since you have already highlighted some of your thoughts from the Bible, it will be prudent for me to reply to these comments and let you decide, in the meanwhile.

 To begin with your comments from the Bible, where you say "No one denies that Jesus christ is the prophet and also as servant of God.The bible tells that Jesus had two nature when he was on earth-the human and divine." Without questioning the authenticity of Bible books themselves, for the time being, I simply ask you to put forward your evidence from the Bible (NT or OT) where this duality of Jesus is clearly described by Jesus himself or from his 12 diciples and not from the understanding of some others. Isn't this a fair question, if all our faith is based upon this concept?

gospelmap wrote: But looking at some of the verses in quran and bible itself Jesus christ does not seems or appears to me only a prophet.It goes beyond his prophethood to his divinity.The bible affirms that Jesus was a prophet too ,but it goes further to tell he is divine too just as we see in the titles given in quran.the titles carries a deep meaning which are not explaind in detail in the quran wereas the bible gives the full expression that to be sinless (pure,faultless,holy),Al masiha, word of God and spirit of God is not just prophethood but requires divinity .

Here, my bro, I would like to draw a clear distinction b/w what is known from the verses with relatively clearer understanding as compared with what is construed to be known through the human philosopy developed generations after the Jesus. It is in this regard, we as co-Abrahamic religionists, clearly know that our God is just one and only one. Isn't it written in the famous 10 commandments of OT and thus known to my Jewish brother as well? Don't you agree with me on this? So, let us focus on this what is clearly known, beyond doubt, and leave things to God which we are made to believe to understand through human philosophy, developed through un-clear verses, may it in Quran or in Bible. So, first thing first, we must profess, all togather, that there is no god but God, to whom both our prophets, Jesus and Mohammad also prayed. This is, not to say what other identities Jesus must have or not have, but to clear the slate from whatever is known and then discuss about what is being told to us through implied meanings. Can we begin our discussion on that note?? Hope to hear some good and interesting discussion from that on. May God be with every one of us. Amen.

 Without questioning the authenticity of Bible books themselves, for the time being, I simply ask you to put forward your evidence from the Bible (NT or OT) where this duality of Jesus is clearly described by Jesus himself or from his 12 diciples and not from the understanding of some others. Isn't this a fair question, if all our faith is based upon this concept?

Thanks for the quick response. Due to space and readability limit I will answer this first question and then move on to later.I appreaciate what you said  that to know about Jesus, we need to look at what Jesus told about himself  to his disciples and then what the disciples wrote what they heard from  him and also what the old testament says about the messiah.you are right in saying that we cannot rely upon the contents apart from these sources. in our discussions we are free to disagree and ask pointed questions and refrences.

Considering that jesus came 2000 years ago and after his ascension into heaven around 33-34 Ad ,its imperative for us to look into the sources- 1.That are aviliable closer to that period.2.From the eye witnesses and people of the first century since they were the closest to that events and hence can give us what actually took place.hence more logically plausible and reliable (hence will also be accepted in the court of justice). hence if today after many centuries, If I suddenly come up with the idea other than what was written by the eye witnesses, then it will  be logically incorrect and rejected even if I claim that this has been revealed by God to me through supernatural means and visions.since many people can make such claims apart from me  in any century. For example if after many centuries I come up saying God has reavaled to me that Jesus christ was nothing but a clown and actor who worked in a circus then then I will be demanded the evidences and I cannot Just say that God has reveald to me, since thats not an evidence but a mere allegation.hence my source must be into the records of people who actually were present in the first century either themselves or with people who were eye witnesses. therefore my source to talk about Jesus christ is the records or document or dairy  (a modern term) of his followers and their associates of the first century which is called the new testament.

The new testament is written by the followers of Jesus christ of what they saw ,heard,learnt,memorised from Jesus and then wrote it down after the ascension of Jesus christ to heaven.

Also it should be noted highly that the context of Jesus is Jewish and  happenings are in israel and not western or asian or arabic.hence we also need to note what the traditional jews understood by terms that were used for God.For example :the word " I AM" or alpha and omega was supposed to be used only by God and if anyone uses it other than God then the person speaking is actually blashpheming as per the jewish faith because he/she is  claiming to be God.

Jesus own claims about being divine as recorded by his followers and some reaction by the  jews:

1.Jesus said �The Father and I are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him�because that you, being a man, makes thyself God. (John 10:31-33)

2."Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18)

3.Jesus said anyone who has seen me has seen (God) the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9)

4. Jesus said "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it, and was glad". And, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM. At this, they picked up stones to stone him. (John. 8:56-59 )

(Note : the actual Greek words 'ego eimi', translated (I AM). When Jesus used the "I AM" construction he was speaking in the style of deity which was only used by God."

5.^{ Jesus said} I am the first(al-Awwal) and the last(al-Akhir), ,^and the ^living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have ^the keys of death and of Hell," ( http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_1.htm#And -

 1. http://www.carm.org/kjv/Phil/phil_2.htm#th - who, although He existed as God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a crosson than the Father

2."For in christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"(Col 2:9)

3.And Thomas answered and said unto Jesus, My LORD and my God. Here Jesus did not correct Thomas by saying � I am not God � or he could have said �I am a mere prophet� but he actually accepted his worship and his confession as both lord and God. (John 20:28)

sufi_observer wrote: The word in 19:19 is "zakiiya," which means "pure" or "purified." It is also used to describe the youth in 18:74, where there is clearly no implication of sinlessness. This argument is invalid.

dear friend sufi

w(v[30]);Quran.nu

(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
w(v[32]);Pickthall

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

w(v[33]);Yusuf Ali

He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

From dictionary.sakhr.com


http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=incorruptible - incorruptible ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=virtuous - virtuous ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=righteous - righteous ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=cleanhanded - cleanhanded ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=blameless - blameless ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=celibate - celibate ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=white - white ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=immaculate - immaculate ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=incorrupt - incorrupt ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=innocent - innocent ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=inculpable - inculpable ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=evenhanded - evenhanded ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=good - good ; http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=chaste - chaste

near synonyms to http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?Sub=sinless - sinless ( http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?sub=�������� - �������� )

freebird wrote: gospelmap wrote: Jesus is called The sinless one (surah 19:19), The anointed one (Al masiha) , the word of God (kalimatullah) and the spirit of God (Ruhuallah) (Surah 4:171;surah 3:45 ; surah 5:109) .   This title is not applied to any messenger, prophets and  not even to muhammed. What does that tells of Jesus? We are as muslims are trained to respect the messengers as human with missions and we don't make them more than the simple explanation that there is no distinction between them.   You should not muddy for something that is clear which I am afraid it will make it muddier - and you will regret this. I believe we better leave him as he is - as a unique person for you.   Just know the messengers as they are - as we were tought and don't push it beyond that, unless of course if you want it to.

Dear friend freebird

ASW

I dont think its sound that  simple , neither it appears so.But I would suggest you to have your own study of these term and ask god to show you its meaning hidden.this word is also used in Judaism and christianity (the bible) referring to divinity.In Surah 58.22 where we read that God strengthens true believers with "a spirit from him". The Muslim translator Yusuf Ali appends the following comment to this verse:

Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything the phrase used here is stronger, "a spirit from Himself". Whenever anyone offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that Faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the divine spirit which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature and attributes of God. (Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, p. 1518).

This is a remarkable comment which clearly contains a veiled implication that the ruhun minhu is the very Spirit of the living God, uncreated and eternal in essence. Yusuf Ali says it is "the divine spirit" and that it is as incomprehensible as God himself. The language he uses is unambiguous - the Spirit from God is clearly believed by him to be from the realm of deity and not from the created order.

Now this is the very title that the Qur'an gives to Jesus in Surah 4.171. The exact same words are used - he is the ruhun minhu, "a Spirit from God". If we merely apply Yusuf Ali's interpretation of the expression in Surah 58.22 to the very same expression given as a title to Jesus in Surah 4.171, we can only conclude that Jesus is the "divine spirit".

sufi_observer wrote: The word in 19:19 is "zakiiya," which means "pure" or "purified." It is also used to describe the youth in 18:74, where there is clearly no implication of sinlessness. This argument is invalid.

The angle said to Mary in the Quran: � I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I may bestow an thee a faultless son. � Sura 19:19�

 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isaiah 9:6)

Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)

No other prophet or person was born from a virgin, and was without sin except Jesus according to both the Quran and the Bible.

the new Testament, we can read about the sinless life of Jesus in the following verses:

�He committed no sin, � 1Peter 2: 22

�He knew no sin, � II Corinthians 5: 21

� In Him there is no sin, � I John 3:5

O my dear brother gospelmap, thanks for your replies. Your replies indeed strengthen my hypothesis that most of my Christian brothers don't know about the historicity of their own Bible. This is not to discourage you as what you believe, but to make you aware of as what you quote so generously from all over the Bible, especially the NT. Nevertheless, here is my humble response to your quotes from the Bible.

1. You quoted (John 10:31-33), but point to be noted here is that its not what Jesus said, but what others understood of him. In either case, this parable "Father and I are one." is commonly understood that "Father and my message" is one, especially in the context of Prophethood of Jesus. Hence, whatever he says, is from God and not from himself. This is quite frequently found in Ahadith literature of Prophet Mohammad. This is why Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad is so important for us, even then we never ascribe any divinity to Prophet Mohammad.

2. John 5:18 has also the same explanation as presented above.

3. In  (John 14:9)  , typically people were asking him to show them the God. Is this not a silly question from a Prophet, especially once they new that it was written that no one has seen the God. How can any sane person than ask to show them the God? The best answer to this silly question, again in the context of Prophethood of Jesus, that for all practical purposes, he is the representative of God on earth. So, in that sense this passage can easily be explained that anyone who obeys Jesus, obeys God. In the same token anyone who has seen Jesus, has seen the God. No divinity needed for this simple understanding. Isn't it?

4. Your evidence from John 8:56-59 to show any divinity of Jesus is not comprehensively understood. Especially how come all lowered Greek words 'ego eimi', " can be translated as all capital (I AM)? Is their any rules capitalizing Greek words during translation to english words?? I don't know. Secondly, it is also intersting to know that Jesus used to speak Greek language and not the Aramaic. Are you sure of this?? 

5. Your reference from Rev 1:17-18 can be anything but to show that Jesus has any divinity especially once the statement says "....and I was dead..." Also, probably, you would also like to tell us the author of this book Revelations and his relationship with Jesus to put such words in his mouth?

6. Similarly your reference to "(Mark 14:61-63)" is seen more off the mark especially once the sentence says ".....see the Son of man.....". On an interesting note, again, who is using this capital "S" for son during the translation from Greek to English? Also, this time the words "Jesus said, "I am"" are not capitalized. Is there any specific reason for such translations?

Now when you quote "1. http://www.carm.org/kjv/Phil/phil_2.htm#th -

AhmadJoyia wrote: O my dear brother gospelmap, thanks for your replies. ..................On more important issue than above, I am still awaiting your response to the last part of my post where I said "clearly know that our God is just one and only one. Isn't it written in the famous 10 commandments of OT and thus known to my Jewish brother as well? Don't you agree with me on this? So, let us focus on this what is clearly known, beyond doubt, and leave things to God which we are made to believe to understand through human philosophy, developed through un-clear verses, may it in Quran or in Bible.

Dear freind

Ok now let me answere your second question before I take on again the first.

Should I appeal to groups like nations of islam ,ahamadiyyas,bahai ?etc.you may very well give the reasons against their understanding about Quran just like we give about our jewish brothers.hence the point is they are not our authority.we need to look in the scriptures for our search for God .ok now about your question of one God.

There are 9 different Hebrew words, which can be translated as "one" at times. They are ish, ishah, nephesh, yachid, almoni, echad, gam, badad, and chad. Lets focus on two particular words. The word "yachid" means an absolute or solitary one.This word is never applied to God because "Elohim conveys both the unity of the one God, and yet allows for the plurality of Divine Persons .hence the word used is echad .Echad "STRESSES UNITY, WHILE RECOGNIZING DIVERSITY WITHIN THAT ONENESS" .

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh,

Dear Gospelmap,

   Im ok with the idea that Jesus has never sinned. But I have a question for you: How can i believe that the bible we have represents the true sayings of Jesus? It's full of contradictions and if Jesus never erred then there is no way he contradicted himself or science. Pure and simple.

AhmedNagi wrote: Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh, Dear Gospelmap,    Im ok with the idea that Jesus has never sinned. But I have a question for you: How can i believe that the bible we have represents the true sayings of Jesus? It's full of contradictions and if Jesus never erred then there is no way he contradicted himself or science. Pure and simple.

Thanks anhmad for your response.let me take your first question

"How can i believe that the bible we have represents the true sayings of Jesus?"

You can very well trust the bible because there was no room for corruption in presence of lots of manuscripts (almost 24000) that is still present from ancient times -some dating back to first century and many from second century and lots of before Islam arrived.If you take them all and compare it you wont find any corruption and tampering of the central message.there could be spelling mistakes while hand written copying from the many orginals that were perishing due to written on perishing material like skin,leaves ,parchments,pots etc.

We find even during muhammed's time these manuscripts were still preserved and unchanged.if there was any change even after muhammed's time then there would have been an immedite response and rechecking to expose it taking into consideration the vast amount of manuscripts.the canons of scriptures were thus establshed to reject anything that came in direct contradiction with the original copies,thus making the orignals more secure.

let me also give you some insight and reason from the islamic history to show how the bible was secure ,unchanged and realiable.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath REVEALED THEREIN. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. S. 5:47

Khadija then took him to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija's paternal uncle. Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of THE GOSPEL in Arabic as much AS ALLAH WISHED HIM TO WRITE ... (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 478)

According to these citations Waraqa knew the Gospel and translated it into Hebrew and Arabic, and this was the will of Allah for him to do so. Why would Allah want Waraqa to translate a corrupt Gospel in the language of the people which would only end up misleading them?.But actually this verse is directed to Christians of Muhammad's time. They are told to judge by what Allah has revealed in the Gospel. This presumes that an uncorrupt Gospel was available during Muhammad's time, otherwise how could Christians judge by it?.

Ahmad ibn 'Abd Allah ibn Salam [also] said:

I have translated the beginning of this book, and the Torah, THE GOSPELS, and THE BOOKS OF THE PROPHETS and disciples from Hebrew, Greek, and Sabian, which are the languages of the people of each book, in Arabic, letter for letter ... (Abu 'l-Faraj Muhammad ibn Ishaq al-Nadim, The Fihrist - A 10th Century AD Survey of Islamic Culture, edited and translated by Bayard Dodge [Great Books of the Islamic World, Inc., Columbia University Press, 1970], p. 42; bold and capital emphasis ours)

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the GOSPELS in Arabic... (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.605 - )

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh,

Dear Gospelmap,

   When the Quran refers to the Injil, it refers to the uncorrupt version. See, you can extract some truth out of the Bible you have today. We can know that they are truths because they agree with what's in the Quran. The corrupt Bible that we have today is not the Injil. It might contain parts of it but is also has extra parts added by different people throughout history. Also no where does it say that we Muslims are required to preserve the Injil.

   Before Muhammed became a Prophet, people were required to believe in the Bible because it was the closest thing they had to the truth and God's word. But with the revleation of the Quran, people now had a the full truth and were required to follow it.

   Now you calim that the scriptures from which the Bible was collected are sifted through with great care. Then how can it contain contradictions within itself? Surely neither God nor Jesus contradicted themselves? Thus parts of the Bible must have been added by the people writing it down.

   As for the mistakes made by copying and unintentional writing, that doesn't excuse them from being mistakes. How can I follow something that is wrong whether it was written down wrong intentionally or unintentionally. Even though that excuse for mistakes can't apply for contradictions like the huge difference in genealogy of Jesus between Matthew and Luke. There is no way the argument of an uncorrupt Bible holds when it is full of glaring contradictions with its ownself let alone science and history. Anyway this excuse of miscpoying doesn't really apply to the following example:

  http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?2+Samuel+24:1 - 2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?1+Chronicles+21:1 - 1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.

or:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Proverbs+26:4 - PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Proverbs+26:5 - PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

or:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Isaiah+44:24 - IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?John+1:1-3 - JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation.

And the list goes on...

Why should any person follow an errant book, while a totally flawless one is present?

AhmedNagi wrote: Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh, Dear Gospelmap,    When the Quran refers to the Injil, it refers to the uncorrupt version. See, you can extract some truth out of the Bible you have today. We can know that they are truths because they agree with what's in the Quran. The corrupt Bible that we have today is not the Injil. It might contain parts of it but is also has extra parts added by different people throughout history. Also no where does it say that we Muslims are required to preserve the Injil.    Before Muhammed became a Prophet, people were required to believe in the Bible because it was the closest thing they had to the truth and God's word. But with the revleation of the Quran, people now had a the full truth and were required to follow it.    Now you calim that the scriptures from which the Bible was collected are sifted through with great care. Then how can it contain contradictions within itself? Surely neither God nor Jesus contradicted themselves? Thus parts of the Bible must have been added by the people writing it down.    As for the mistakes made by copying and unintentional writing, that doesn't excuse them from being mistakes. How can I follow something that is wrong whether it was written down wrong intentionally or unintentionally. Even though that excuse for mistakes can't apply for contradictions like the huge difference in genealogy of Jesus between Matthew and Luke. There is no way the argument of an uncorrupt Bible holds when it is full of glaring contradictions with its ownself let alone science and history. Anyway this excuse of miscpoying doesn't really apply to the following example:   http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?2+Samuel+24:1 - 2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census. http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?1+Chronicles+21:1 - 1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census. or: http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Proverbs+26:4 - PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too. http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Proverbs+26:5 - PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise. or: http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Isaiah+44:24 - IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone. http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?John+1:1-3 - JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation. And the list goes on... Why should any person follow an errant book, while a totally flawless one is present?

thanks ahmed for responding.I will be outstation for a week let me put some question before you to think that may help to answer self.

1.Was the original injil which was uncorrupted present during muhammed's time?

If yes as per your above statement as muhammed was referring to it,then why does muhammed also contradict,disagree,deny the contents from the orginal uncorrupted injil? (example Jesus crucifixion , Jesus being called the son of God ,his resurrection etc). he was condemning because he referred to it and proclaimed it as false (even the orginal injil??). if the above example was not present then was he referring to another gospel?.but if so then it will contradict your statement because you said he was referring to the orginal injil.But if you say he was referring to the corrupted bible then why use a corrupted source for reference??

..�If you are in doubt concerning that we reveal unto thee, then question or ask those who read the book before you (The bible). (Qur�an sura yunus 10:94)

hence we see in one part he tells to refer the bible and in another he condemns the other contents from the same bible.it sounds too contradictory.

2.The bible verses you mentioned above nowhere contradictsand also ask how does that make a diffrence to the central message of the scripture if it was changed.let me take one by one

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?2+Samuel+24:1 - 2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?1+Chronicles+21:1 - 1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census

1.Since David had purposed within his heart to number Israel, something which the Lord was aware of. Realizing this, the Lord in his anger moved David through the agency of the Devil to act upon his heart's desire. hence we see both are mentioned,God permitted or allowed the devil to act upoun David due to the pride of his might.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Proverbs+26:4 - PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Proverbs+26:5 - PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

since there are diffrent kind of fools ,the verses above is applied in diffrent context.the wisdom need to be applied how should we respond to various fools.hence the writer knowing both closely ties the verse togther.hence the question should I answer a fool or not? so e the above verse poses a dilemma than contradiction.the answer is sometimes yes sometime no.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?Isaiah+44:24 - IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?John+1:1-3 - JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation.

God as per the bible is Father ,son (Jesus) and the holy spirit who are one in essence as spirit but yet plural in revelation.hence the  God the father and the spirit created the world through Jesus- the second person of trinity.so we see there is no contradiction.

3.The warnings in the Bible are many and severe against anyone trying to change God's Holy revelation. It makes no sense to say that they went against such warnings, and then even preserved the very warnings they were ignoring.who would like to invite curse after reading the following verse.

�I warn everyone who hears the word of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book and if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him the share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book (Rev22: 18-19)

4.If one looks at the content of the Holy Bible, one is led to ask what possible gain would there be for men to invent such a Book? why would the disciples invent a crucified ,killed,massacred , insulted savior? what would they gain except intense persecution ? almost all the disciples were killed in a brutal way for their faith..when they were persecuted they forgave the killers just like their lord Jesus.they got nothing except shame ,pain , lonliness, etc .why would they die for somethig they know was invented?Would anyone die a martyr's death for a book he knew to be a fraud?

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh,

Dear Gospelmap,

 As for your first point, Muhammed was referring to the Injil. The uncorrupt one. Now look at the verse closely. Allah advises Muhammed to ask the people who have read the book/s. He doesn't advise him to look in the book itself. The reason is the book is corrupt but the experts/evengelists back then could deduce some truths from the scriptures that were still available. This is on example of how accurate the Quran is. Unfortunately the Bible has been so corrupted nowadays, it is a lot harder to deduce truths from it.

 As for your second point, where you refute the contradictions:

   a)In one verse, 'the anger of the Lord burned against Israel' and in the second 'Satan rose against Israel'. So basically Satan and the anger of the Lord are one thing. I can't see your explanation working here.

   b)According to your explanation, the summary of both verses is you can answer a fool or not answer a fool. So is there a third method of dealing with a fool? And even so, how is one to judge what type of fool to answer and what type not to answer? It doesn't give any guides here. Anyway, one verse goes 'answer a fool according to his folly' and the other goes 'don't answer a fool according to his folly'. If this isn't a contradiction, I don't know what is. Your explanation would stand if the verse was talking about 'some fools', but not fools in general.

   c) According to your exaplanation, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one. But how can anyone be greater than himself?

   Jesus admits "..my Father is greater than I", {John 14:28}

Added to that, how can a God be lesser than another God? That totally rules the former out as being a God because a God is absolute. He is infinitely powerful. This is also why we Muslims believe that there can only be one God. The reason being is that if there are two Gods with infinite power, for them to be absolute, then any one of them can destroy the other, and it is not possible to destroy a God.

   As for your third point, I agree it is very bad to change God's revelations. Maybe the writers of the bible should have kept this in mind when the facsimile reproduction of the Codex Vaticanus which was edited by the Vatican City in 1965 stated the following in an accompanying note from its editors:

    ''several centuries after it was copied, a scribe inked all over the letters except those he thought were a mistake''...''the different hands that corrected and annotated the manuscript over the centuries have not yet been definitively discerned; a certain number of corrections were undoubtedly made when the text was inked over''.

As for you last point, there are lots of things to gain from altering the texts. Least of all is fame and status. Paul gained alot by dramatizing the Bible. He entered history from its biggest doors. But more importantly, political motives also played a role.

   We shouldn't argue with each other in issues like this one for the sake of winning discussions. This isn't a challenge. The whole point behind this is to find the truth.

Salaam to all!

I believe that some of the Muslims here (with the exception of some which is why I said SOME instead of ALL) and some Christians cannot discuss the subject of Jesus either as a man of God or a supernatural deity without arguing and using scripture. Let me say that the message of Jesus is divine (not was) and if any divinit came from him it was due to God of course. Jesus taught that the ultimate message was love. Love which is the emotional attribute all life forms can comprehend can be attributed to many of our social problems.

Inb these holiday season using Qur'an I'm more reflecting on the ministries of brother Jesus' message in the nature of man, self and God. We ask the question who Jesus is but I believe both the Qur'an and Bible answer this on opposite ends: A man of God.

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh,

   One has to find the truth using the most logical methods of thinking. God's true message can be found through intertwining logic and scriptures. The problem here is finding the right scriptures, the true ones. Jesus was given a divine message and we Muslims believe in it. The question is, are the scriptures we have now that claim to be passed by Jesus, the real scriptures he did pass down? The reason is because God's message is not only limited to love. It also covers life, justice, morals, ethics, history, all of which are aspects that should be held with the same importance as love. And even though one can't go wrong with loving everyone, one can go wrong on all the other elements due to lack of knowledge. The only way one can find the best way to act is through following God's message. Thus one has to find the true message in order to avoid mislead judgement.

Dear Gospelmap! May peace be on you!

In my opinion your questions are simple and have simple answers.

(1)   Allah spells his spirit not only in Jesus but all the new born humans. It was only that Jesus was born without any male intervention. He also spelled his spirit into Adam (38:72) and all other humans but as it happens in routine we don�t notice it. Adam, Eve and Jesus are only signs for us to believe that Allah has power over all things he can create from nowhere (Adam), without father (Jesus) or even without mother (Eve). It not that Allah spelled his spirit only in Jesus and Adam while Satan is spelling in rest of us. The others have not been specifically mentioned because we consider it as a NATURAL COURSE. See Quran 2:28.

(2)   The word of God means his order (3:47 and 19:35). He says BE and it happens. So he said BE in case of Jesus and he was conceived without male intervention. Regarding others he also says BE and that happens with the male intervention. There is no concept of natural phenomenon in Islam (which is supposed to be out of the reach or control of God). Its all that Allah has ordered it to be like that and it appears as a routine to us. So once a hen lays egg and horse gives birth to a pony, it is considered as a natural phenomenon but if it happens vice versa it becomes a miracle. If God had had willed, this procedure could have been other way round.

(3)   If Jesus being born miraculously is considered as to be the son of god or god then the ADAM and also EVE being born from nowhere or without father should be considered as greater gods than Jesus. As Quran says: �Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.� (3:59). The reasons for Jesus birth are surely known to God alone but in my opinion the miraculous birth of Jesus was to teach Jews that God has power over everything. Because Jews would say that God can�t punish us. This was to send a message that if you remain arrogant God will definitely punish you. (Unfortunately the same false concept has crept in the ranks of Muslims as well that we being born in the Muslim family are holding a visa for heaven, and whatever wrong we do will be got pardoned by God through Muhammad. Christians attribute it to Christ). But Quran says without faith or good deeds no one will enter heaven whether Jew or Muslim or Christian or Hindu etc.

(4)   Every human is born sinless according to Islam so it was not only Jesus who was born sinless. Later one can commit sins or mistakes.    

Coming to your other points, you said: �Jesus said �The Father and I are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him�because that you, being a man, makes thyself God. (John 10:31-33)� That is quoted out of context. So for the context, �I and my father are one� - you have to go to the Gospel of John, Ch. No.10, Verse No. 23, that �Jesus walked into the temple, in Solomon�s porch�. Verse No. 24 says, and the Jews came around him and asked him. �How long does thou make us doubt? - If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly�.

Verse No.25 says, �I told you, but you believe me not - the works that I do in my father�s name, - they bear witness of me. Verse No.26 says that, �you believe not because you are not my sheep, as I   said unto  you�. The Jews, they are asking Jesus Christ  (peace be upon him) that �Why don�t you speak plainly?�. So he tells them that��Yes I am the Messiah - I have told you clearly, but because you are not my sheep, you don�t believe in me.

Verse No.27 continues�Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) continues saying that� �My sheep - they hear my voice, and I know them - and they follow me. Verse No.28, that� �I give them eternal life - no man can pluck them out of my hand, and they shall not perish�. Verse No.29 says �My father who giveth to me, He is greater than all - No man can pluck them out of my father�s hand.

Then Verse No. 30 says, �I and my father are one� � �Any person who has little bit sense can make out,  �I and my father are one� doesn�t mean one - as one person. It means one is purpose. Suppose my father is a doctor and I say, �I and my father are one� - What does it mean? It means one in purpose and not in person.

If you go ahead in the Gospel of John, Ch. No.17, Verse No.21, it says that, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) said that� �Ye all of them are one - My father in me, and I in thee, we all are one�. �Does it mean that God Almighty, is in Jesus Christ� and Jesus Christ is in all his 12 disciples. So there will be 14 gods - Jesus Christ, God Almighty, and 12 disciples. The same �one� is used there, and here. If you go to the source, the same word is used - If you go to the Greek� the same word is used - So does it mean you have 14 gods?

Gospel of John, Ch.  17, Verse 23, says that, �I am in thee, and you are in me�� he tells the disciples. Does it make all them God? No! It means one in purpose. So next the Jews pick up the stones that Jesus called himself God, and Jesus says in, Verse No. 33, says that��We don�t� stone you for any good works, but because you blaspheme � being a man, you call yourself God � that is why we stone you�. 

So Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) gives the answer in rhetorical terms in the next verse - Verse no. 34, of John Ch. 10, Gospel of John, Ch. 10, which says that��Is it not mentioned in your Scriptures that ye are gods? - and if the person to whom the word� of God came � if he says� �god� - the Scripture is not broken indicating about Psalms, Ch. No. 82, Verse No.6,. So Jesus Christ gave the answer, that the person to whom the �Word� of God came, if you call him �God�, it is not blaspheme but you call me blasphemous.

Because if this phrase of being ONE is to be taken in the literal sense then the sheep and door should also be taken in the literal sense that Jesus was actually speaking to sheep and he actually was a door.

Suppose if you say to your friend, �Oh my God you are still not ready? You will get late� does this mean that you are actually calling him as GOD??

And this is also said by Jesus, Mathew 19:16-20, which says, �And, behold one came and said unto him, Good Master what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, �Why callest thou me good? there is none good, but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.�  

Also in Gospel of John, Chapter 14, Verse No. 28, and Gospel of John, Chapter No. 10, Verse No. 29, �My father is greater than I�. And once he was asked that, �which is the first of the commandments� - he said - its mentioned in the Gospel of Mark, Chapter No. 12, Verse. No. 29 �Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord�.

At other places same is the case that he is taken out of context and brother Ahmed Joya has answered these questions in detail. Because if he says at one place that, THERE IS ONE GOD, at the other WE ALL ARE ONE and yet another I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE, it is either that JESUS is himself not clear about God or that Christians fail to understand him once he speaks in allegorical terms.

And if he died on the cross so this means that the poor god also died along with him. Because both are one??

As my brother David said that the translation can rarely convey the true meanings. This is mostly true once it comes to Arabic. Like for the word �ABD� there is no parallel in English, Urdu or any other language. Therefore the nearest translation can be servant but it does not define the true meanings. This can mean �MY MEN�, �MY FOLLOWERS�, �MY WORSHIPPERS�, �MY FAITHFULS�, �MY OFF SEEDS�, �ALL THOSE WHO ARE SINCERE TO ME�, �ALL THOSE WHO OBEY ME�, �ALL THOSE WHO CAN LAY THEIR LIFE FOR ME� etc etc. So if �ABD� is translated it can be used in ale above cases this is why Prophet Muhammad specifically told not to use this word except in the sense once God call or address us. Some similar Aramaic word has been wrongly translated by some translator for which almost whole of the Christian world is paying the price. It is absolutely blasphemous to use the word �BEGOTTEN� for Jesus.  The Bible says god has many sons, see for yourself: Luke 3:38, ��.Adam, which was the SON OF GOD�, Genesis 6:2&8 �That the SONS OF GOD saw the saw the daughters of men, and they were fair�� & �And when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them�.�, Exodus 4:22 ��.thus saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON, even my firstborn.� Similar statements are repeated in Jeremiah 31:9, Psalms 2:7, Romans 8:14.

Shams Zaman    Pakistan.     

Excellent piece of work, bro Shams. I appreciate your efforts. On a simple question by Bro DavidC when he asks "I think God slowly tells us directly what is true interpretation. Christians call this grace. No one has yet told me what this concept is in Islam. "

In Islam, we call it "rehma" of Allah. Although, I am not an arabist to go into the deep root meaning of this word, but as a common understanding, the word "rehma" is kind of "mercy" of Allah through which all sincere believers would enter the heavens and not through their good deeds alone. This is to say that since there are so many things that Allah has bestowed upon humans that even if someone try to be a perfect human totally obiedient to Him, even then he can't pay back "thanks" to Allah to earn "heaven" totally from his actions alone on the basis of justice only. It is in this sense, that it would be the "rehma" of Allah, that would take such people to the "heavens". At other instances, it is this "rehma" of Allah through which one enters into the right path and not through any other humanistic efforts. Humans can only be the messangers, but who gets the guidance, is totally dependant upon the 'rehma' of Allah alone. I hope this would make some sense or may be some other brothers on this forum may try to bring more clear understanding of "rehma"; Inshallah.

Brother AhmedJoyia,

You have beautifully explained the concept of "rehma". I would like to add a bit here in response to query of brother DavidC.

Brother DavidC, I believe that islamic equivalent of word "grace" can be found in chapter 55 of holy Qur'an "Ar-Rahman". In this chapter, the Creator of the Universe miraculously explains to the mankind about his rahma and grace without which our very existence in this universe will be in danger. Everything on our planet and beyond is doing well only by His grace. That means to say that we must take that first step to learn the truth about our common Creator and He will guide us towards that ultimate reality. Why shouldn't He? Our very birth is the example of His utmost grace. Therefore, our life after that can only be enlightened by His grace provided that we acknowledge to seek the blessings, guidance and grace from our true Master with an open mind of course.

Regards and Wasalam

dear all muslim freinds

Thankyou for all your responses , counter response and views.I am sure that in our honest search for truth the lord will grant us the final revelation .My prayer for all of you is found in the following  conversation between Jesus christ and his disciples and especially Jesus and peter.Finally it is God who ends our struggles for truth.he is the revealer of all truth.

The Great revelation to peter about Jesus christ -who is he?: John 16:13-18

 ¹³When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

 ¹⁴They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

(not satisfied )

 ¹⁵"But what about you?" he asked . "Who do you say I am?"

 ¹⁶Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."

 ¹⁷Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. ¹⁸And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock (person,revelation ,Doctrine,Truth) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in his name (John 20:31)

"For in christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"(Col 2:9)

Thankyou all and may this new year bring joy and prosperity in all the areas of your life.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

DavidC wrote: I think God slowly tells us directly what is true interpretation. Christians call this grace. No one has yet told me what this concept is in Islam.

Hello David,

Though God's grace and mercy is with all of us at all times when allah chooses to guide a person, he does so thru his heart. This is called inspiration. When allah guides people to the truth He inspires the heart. It is the nur of Allah that kindles in the heart and directs it to pure truth.

In the Quran this inspiration has been mentioned in the context of the prophets and messengers. The Quran also talks about people not understanding the scriptures, and allah says He has put locks on their hearts. - So it should be about a communication between the Lord and His servant, thru their heart.

[Note: From the heart, I mean the spiritual heart, and not the physical heart]

Peace,

Nausheen

dear all muslim freinds

Thankyou for all your responses , counter response and views.I am sure that in our honest search for truth the lord will grant us the final revelation .My prayer for all of you is found in the following  conversation between Jesus christ and his disciples and especially Jesus and peter.Finally it is God who ends our struggles for truth.he is the revealer of all truth.

The Great revelation to peter about Jesus christ -who is he?: John 16:13-18

 ¹³When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

 ¹⁴They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

(not satisfied )

 ¹⁵"But what about you?" he asked . "Who do you say I am?"

 ¹⁶Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God."

 ¹⁷Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. ¹⁸And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock (person,revelation ,Doctrine,Truth) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in his name (John 20:31)

"For in christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"(Col 2:9)

Thankyou all and may this new year bring joy and prosperity in all the areas of your life.

pauline35 wrote: Hello Gospelmap, In reality, John wasn't even the chosen one by GOD to lead Christ, and because of his selfishness, he created the opportunity for others to establish many churches such as Angelican (approved armageddon by allowing Gay and Lesbian marriages so to discontinue human race's production), Baptism (set a percentage of donation about 10% from salary and make it compulsory to give salary as donation, so that the Priest can drive Honda Civic or luxury car), Christian specifically teaching that Islam and other religion are devil (once I was told by Christian Pastor), etc. The truth is the world has come to understand that Bible was written by human revelation for selfish benefits to conquer and not through divine revelation as being claimed earlier by many. How do Christian conquers? Giving an example that Gospelmap had committed a serious crime and make his confession to the father one Sunday morning. The next course of action that the father took was to threaten John that if he ever stop coming to the Church and stop donating a certain amount of his salary, the father will lodge a police report on the crime that he admitted earlier. As simple as pure logic. What if you make false confessions? Your guilt will haunt you forever! That is why it is silly to do such a confession to anyone whom you barely know. What if the father is the undercover police officer? Hahaha...gotcha! Happy Truthful New Year and May Allah forgive your sins if you pray to him.

Pauline, these people are no more Christian than Osama bin Laden is a Muslim. 

Let me tell you, I give 10% of my income to my church.  Do you know where this money goes?  I do.  Not to my clergy....My church does not have a paid clergy.  Those that serve my church do not receive paychecks or compensation.  The money goes to charities, building new church buildings, paying for the utilities, buying new bibles, helping out victims of natural disasters, the food bank, medical care for the needy and there are many others.

I feel sad that you have only experience hypocrisy in your dealing with the Christian church.  From your venom, I would say its probably the Angelicans and hte Baptists.  I have known good people from both churches that disagree with the actions that some in their denomination have taken. 

Though I respect Islam and many of the lessons it teaches.  I could sit here and list the same complaints you lodge against Christians for any faith, including Islam.  There are clerics who use their status to claim power, political power.  A holy man should not seek such things.  There are rabbis who cheat in business and drive Lexuses.  This is not what these religions are, its fallen men who belong to a faith.

DavidC is not psychotic.  And please do not attack him like that.  Disagree with Gospelmap's use of the bible.  I'm fine with that.  I can point out his misinterpretations in several places.  But understand, that its not John who gathered the books of the bible.  The Old and New Testament as we know them are a collection of works, not one steady revelation as the Quran is.  They are views into the world and they have been translated and retranslated. 

In Muhammed's time, there were 73 sects....people get ahold of the truth and they start interpreting it their own way.  The Injil, Torah and Quran are guide posts to help us navigate.  The prophets are people who continue to lead us towards God's message. 

But, instead of calling Christians idiots and blaming us for something that true Christians do not believe in (Gay Marriage).  Instead you should follow Christ's example (this applies even if you view him as only a prophet) and love your fellow man.  Show compassion and work for peace.  When you use harsh tones and insults against others who do not belive as you do, then you only encourage the conflict to continue. 

Ever heard of the statement, you catch more bees with honey than vinegar?

Hello Angela, Ever heard of the saying that before you fire, make sure your gun is loaded?

I believe what I have heard and experienced. I believe all Christian are same because they are evangelist. Are you telling me you are not an evangelist?

Angela wrote: But, instead of calling Christians idiots and blaming us for something that true Christians do not believe in (Gay Marriage).

Are you implying that Angelican Churches that approved gay marriages are not preaching from the same bible? I guess you just have to accept it that the Bible does not condemn Gay Marriages and in fact, it also does not say that Christian cannot believe in the marriage of a same gender. Does it?

Whether I called Christian idiot or genius, it is "I" who made the call. Do you have a problem with that? I do not have any respect for Christian basically is because THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. THEY ARE HYPOCRITE.

Ever heard about the statement that "The truth hurts".

A pastor is a Christian and he is a true Christian, otherwise, how could he be a Pastor in the first place? When a pastor tells that Islam and other religion are evil, he is just being honest because he learned it from the Bible (NT) and YOU CALLED THEM NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN?

Anyway, I am not here to argue about What good is in Christian. I am here because I want to learn about Islam. The only reason for my above reply to Gospelmap is because he is too much. I am not yet a Muslim convert, and I cannot believe the statement he made about Christian and Islam.

Likewise, I am just expressing my point of view based on what I have been told, what I had experienced and what I feel is right. For that matter, you need not tell me what to understand or how must I understand about Christianity and true Christian.

The truth is NT was not just a translation, it is a tool to manipulate human race. If you have a strong mind, you will find the truth about the NT.

Sad to hear that my experiences only talked about hypocrisy? Frankly, my experiences with 100% of Christian pastor are just about hypocrisy. The way they tried to convert me was like direct selling, the more you sponsor your downline, the more credit you have.

I do not deny that Jesus led us to God's message and Prophet Muhammad led us to the truth of what Jesus was supposed to pass on and not what Paul to re-write the Bible.

When a true Christian said "There is only one God and Jesus is the only God". I just can't accept it because I am not retarded. I felt insulted because the person who claimed such is insulting my intelligent as if I was born retarded that I can't think and learn for that he had brianwashed me to believe that GOD IS JESUS AND JESUS IS GOD. [edited]Good luck to your research.

Note from Moderator: Your responses are quite caustic, attacking a religious community and their holy scriptures. Please be advised to read the guidelines of conduct before you proceed. Thank you.

Alaikoam Salam

Why ask who Jesus was?

Why not ask the more important question?

"Who are we?"

"What are our goals and aspirations?"

"Where do we see ourselves in 5 years, ten years, etc.?"

Certainly getting to know who Jesus was is of importance though it is more important to know who we are as a person, as a people and where we want our lives to be directed.

This is my opinion....

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

You make me chucle Isr....

Salam Alaikoam Pauline

I agree with some of what you have mentioned though the way I see it many things can be donated or of service not just money.

Expertise can be a blessing where and when people need it or tutoring or money in some cases.

As for a set amount I agree it should be according to the finacially ability of the donor and not a set amount though if it was a kind world people could donate more than 2o% of their proffit.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

I look at my 10% as God's money.  I have no right to say he cannot have it.  And because I show my faith, I am blessed.  When I pay tithing, I never want for anything.  If I need help paying rent or getting groceries.  I go to my bishop and it is given.  We are taught to budget and ignore the call for worldly things. 

There are lots of criminals out there. Televangelists and corrupt charities. 

But, God has required sacrifices, if he says you must give 10%, 2%, 100%, then you must give. 

Its a test of faith, if you don't think you can, then you aren't having faith that God will provide. 

Look at Abraham and Isaac.  He demanded his son, and when Abraham obeyed, he provided the ram instead.  Trust in God and everything will work out.

Tithes are 10% of your gross, in a world where you are compensated in a monetary gain....it is a basic translation into money.  I produce no goods at my business, nor does my husband.  Our gains only come in the form of cash.  If I were a farmer, I could donate a 10th of my flock or grain. 

To him belongs a 10th of my gains.  This is not a cut for God, this is a sacrifice he demands.  This 10th is given to those who need it.  The church administrates the distribution only.  This tenth pays for the free Book of Mormons and the basic maintenance of wards and temples.  But it also goes to feed the poor, cloth the naked and educate the young.  Our church sent $900,000 worth of food, blankets and supplies within days of the earthquake.  We were able to do this because our people already sacrifice daily.  Other churches had to hold special donation drives and fundraisers.  We also fast once a month and further as our personal needs require.  When we fast, the meals we miss, we donate to the poor.  I cannot fast as a diabetic, but I am still required to donate the equivalent meals to the poor.

Because of this, God grants us prosperity and peace.  This is not symbolism, this is action and commitment. 

Sacrificing a burning a lamb would be symbolic, taking your sacrifice and feeding another with it is a deed that can be recorded.

pauline35 wrote: What kind of GOD is that whom required human as sacrifice for ritual's purpose? Why don't apply some logic into this request by THE GOD? This is a human act for slavishness. Perhaps, GOD meant THE SON was ANY SUBSTITUTE THAT CAN BE SACRIFICE FOR ITS RITUAL! Sister Angela, you do not need to tell the whole world what your so-called "CHURCH" has been doing all this while. Every human being would know what to do in the event of any eventuality because we are just SO HUMAN to do so. Every country had made donations to those unfortunate ones. Needless to say those included the Arab or the Muslim countries too. Some Emir donated on an anonymous status. They didn't tell the whole world what they did and how much had they donated. It is just humanely that they did so out of human touch. You expressed as if you CHURCH was the only one who had donated some amount for the unfortunate victims. Why do you have to mentioned "how much"? Psychologically, you sound like you are inferior in your inner self. This is the factual of a hyprocrite's personality.

I was not expressing that we were the only, I was expressing to how quickly we were able to act and the preparedness that we have because of our sacrifices.  I was trying to express what can be done when people come together as a cohesive unit and have organization and drive.

I see now that all you can do is tear down the good acts of others because the believe differently than you. 

You don't know me, you don't know the level of my faith.  I personally think your faith is based on a us vs them attitude.  That is not what God wants for his children.  Judgement is for him alone, perhaps you should rethink your attitude before you call me a hypocrite.  I live in line with my beliefs and I am a faithful daughter of God.  A hypocrite speaks of one thing but does another.  That is not me.  You think my faith is weak because I openly talk about the good works of my church.  My faith is not weak, I am just happy to be part of making the world better, rather than calling some woman who lives half way around the world names when I don't know her.

Before you judge my church as filled with hypocrites and evil doers, perhaps you should know more about us as a people.  Talk to Jenni or Herjihad, both Mormon sisters who converted to Islam.  But, both left the church at young ages and never went to temple.  If you won't talk to them.  Here's a couple of websites.

http://www.lds.org - http://www.lds.org  (Official Site)

http://www.mormon.org - http://www.mormon.org  (FAQ Site)

http://www.of-worth.com - http://www.of-worth.com  (Site on Women in our Faith)