The very essence of Jesus� message (Gospel of St. Barnabas) was the rejection of revenge (as in Islam). That was the great difference between the Church and the Synagogue, these two sisters born two thousand years ago. This difference is built in, it is the inherent most prominent feature of the gap between the two faiths: while Christians were called to forgive their enemies, Jews dream of vengeance.

In the intended ideological confusion of last century, Christians are taught to think that the Jews wait for Messiah who is Christ. Christians believe that the Promised Messiah (or Son of God) came and will come again, while Jews considers the Messiah did not come yet, that is all the difference according to the teaching of Judeo-Christianity. But reality is vastly different: Jesus came to save from Hellfire, while Messiah comes to take revenge. It was proven by prominent Israeli scholar, Prof. Israel Jacob Yuval of Hebrew University in his new book, Two Nations In Your Womb�. �Vengeful salvation�, as Yuval called it, was adopted by the European Jews from the old Pharisee sources and became the prevailing Zionist doctrine of the Synagogue.

When Israel Yuval published his insightful book on theology of vengeance in Judaism, it was accepted with great enthusiasm by his Israeli colleagues. Dr. Yuval quotes many ancient Jewish texts proving this point. �In the End of the days (when the Messiah comes) God will destroy, kill and exterminate all the nations but the sons of Israel�, written in the Sefer Nitzahon Yashan, written by a German Jew in 13th c. A liturgical poet Klonimus b. Judah had a vision of �God�s hands full of Goys� corpses�. Even more dreadful dreams of blood and destruction precede the first attacks on Jews in the end of 11th century. A hundred years before the Crusaders� onslaught on Jews, R. Simon b. Yitzhak calls on God �to take His sword and slaughter the Gentiles�. In order to hasten the destruction of Gentiles, the sages of Europe adopted curses against Christians and Christ, and introduced them into liturgy of Passover, Doomsday and even the daily prayer. For example:

Thanks G-d for not making me a Gentile or a woman.

what do you mean "vs" ?

as if they are in some kind of battle

as if one will win and the other will loose

what does the one win...? and what does the other loose?

converts you answer?

well if converts is the prize of this mystic 'christian vs judaism' game...it boads no fruit from either belief....

christians dont challange anyother faith on how many converts there are...as they dominate the world and have dominated the world for centuries

and jews dont challang other beliefs on how many converts they can get as well

so why pose "christian vs judaism" as if they are challenging eachother?

However, blessings to you and your family

tawhid

tawhid wrote: ....christians dont challange anyother faith on how many converts there are...as they dominate the world and have dominated the world for centuries

When were you born, by the way? Christians are well known for their cruelity and wars to spread their religion. Maybe you should study Dr. T.W. Arnold's book 'The Preaching of Islam'. Even in the present age - Christian missionaries are spending billions of dollars every year to propagate their religion and fund every anti-Islam literature and sponsor every Arab-hating Jewish scholar, i.e, Dr. Bernard Lewis, etc.

Your ignorance of world history is amazing. The Christians, since the 'Dawn of Islam' in 7th century - has not produced a single power which has ruled a major part of the world more than two centuries (British) - while Muslims have ruled Spain for 750 years; India for 1000 years, and Ottomons for 350 years.

and jews dont challang other beliefs on how many converts they can get as well.

How can they? One has to be a 'Jewish mother' to be a Jew! It's a 'race' and not a religion anymore.

Find a good book to read.

yesha` wrote: Are you referring to this writting?  If not, what? http://www.muslimhope.com/ForgeryOfTheGospelOfBarnabas.htm

Sorry buddy - your link ended up hanged on the tree are the cursed one.. - as the Jews watching the crucification quoted the Old Testament. I mean it did not open up.

However, my source was:

http://www.barnabas.net/ - http://www.barnabas.net/

Rehmat wrote: yesha` wrote: Are you referring to this writting?  If not, what? http://www.muslimhope.com/ForgeryOfTheGospelOfBarnabas.htm Sorry buddy - your link ended up hanged on the tree are the cursed one.. - as the Jews watching the crucification quoted the Old Testament. I mean it did not open up. However, my source was: http://www.barnabas.net/ - http://www.barnabas.net/

why do you have an angry face all the time? are you angry...has your faith made you uncontrollably angry to those who absolutely and utter believe that your faith is but sinking sand?

as a true believer of the one god...christians recognize that getting  is useless and it just makes our blood pressure higher...senseless...God doesnt need us to defend him...so why get angry, muslim?

you should be blessed that islamicity gives us the medium of communication so you can hear other views that your ummah fails to teach you about the tenets of christianity...the trueness of GOd's love

blessings to you and yours in my father, tawhid

tawhid wrote: ....why do you have an angry face all the time? are you angry...has your faith made you uncontrollably angry to those who absolutely and utter believe that your faith is but sinking sand?

It seems you English understanding is even worse than your so-called understanding of Christianity. The 'angry face' icon' denote your reaction every time I debunk you lies. It became RED on the very title of my post (Christianity Vs Judaism), because you know that's a fact and not the Zionists' created myth of clash between Christianity and Islam, which they love the Christian to believe.

Now if you love to live in your 'self-denial' - That's fine with me  - but I would like to call the Founder' of the second largest Christian sect - The Protestant - as my witness. And here is a part of Rev. Martin Luther's written statement submitted to the French court in the 16th century:

"They are the real liars and bloodhounds, who have not only perverted and falsified the entire Scriptures from beginning to end and without ceasing with their interpretations. And all of the anxious sighing, longing and hoping of their hearts is directed to the time when some day they would like to deal with us heathen as they dealt with the heathen in Persia at the time of Esther... On how they love the book of Esther, which so nicely agrees with their bloodthirsty, revengeful and murderous desire and hope.

The sun never did shine on a more bloodthirsty and revengeful people as they, who imagine to be the people of God, and who desire to and think they must murder and crush the heathen. And the foremost undertaking which they expect of their Messiah is that he should slay and murder the whole world with the sword. As they at first demonstrated against us Christians and would like to do now, if they only could; have also tried it often and have been repeatedly struck on their snouts.

Their breath stinks for the gold and silver of the heathen; since no people under the sun always have been, still are, and always will remain more avaricious than they, as can be noticed in their cursed usury. They also find comfort with this: "When the Messiah comes, He shall take all the gold and silver in the world and distribute it among the Jews. (2) Thus, wherever they can direct Scripture to their insatiable avarice, they wickedly do so.

Therefore know, my dear Christians, that next to the Devil, you have no more bitter, more poisonous, more vehement and enemy than a real Jew who earnestly desires to be a Jew. There may be some among them who believe what the cow or the goose believes. But all of them are surrounded with their blood and circumcision. In history, therefore, they are often accused of poisoning wells, stealing children and mutilating them; as in Trent, Weszensee and the like. Of course they deny this. Be it so or not, however, I know full well that the ready will is not lacking with them if they could only transform it into deeds, in secret or openly.

A person who does not know the Devil, might wonder why they are so at enemity with the Christians above all others; for which they have no reason, since we only do good to them.

They live among us in our homes, under our protection, use land and highways, market and streets. Princes and government sit by, snore and have their maws open, let the Jews take from their purse and chest, steal and rob whatever they will. That is, they permit themselves and their subjects to be abused and sucked dry and reduced to beggars with their own money, through the usury of the Jews. For the Jews, as foreigners, certainly should have nothing from us; and what they have certainly must be ours. They do not work, do not earn anything from us, neither do we donate or give it to them. Yet they have our money and goods and are lords in our land where they are supposed to be in exile!

If a thief steals ten gulden he must hang; if he robs people on the highway, his head is gone. But a Jew, when he steals ten tons of gold through his usury is dearer than God himself!"

So whose face looks like  now. But then some people are paid not to accept the truth.

Have good day!

Tawhid,

You say: "...has your faith made you uncontrollably angry to those who absolutely and utter[ly] believe that your faith is but sinking sand?"

I don't know your real intent for posting on this forum, but of course, all are welcome.  However, it seems to me to be very rude to come into someone else's home and hurl insults!  Is this a Christian trait?

True understanding of one another will not come about from a closed mind.

You also say: "...as a true believer of the one god...".  Are you implying that only Christians believe in the One God?  There are many paths to God's light, none of us should ever believe only our way is the correct way.

Allah is the God of everyone and everything, no one group owns rights to His mercy and love.

And Allah knows best.

Peace, ummziba.

There could be 'many paths' to receive God's mercy - but there is only one The Alternative. That's why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story5_3_03.html - http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story5_3_03.html

ummziba wrote: There are many paths to God's light, none of us should ever believe only our way is the correct way. Allah is the God of everyone and everything, no one group owns rights to His mercy and love. And Allah knows best. Peace, ummziba.

wow  Are you sure you are muslim?

This is a first I heard this from a muslim.

Please help me out because I thought muslims believe that Islam is the only true and correct way  , ummziba, you mention above that no one should ever believe that their way is the only correct way - if this is meant for ALL then islam cannot be the only correct true path  and that there are other paths to God's light.

Or are you saying only within Islam ?

Rehmat wrote: There could be 'many paths' to receive God's mercy - but there is only one The Alternative. That's why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story5_3_03.html - http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story5_3_03.html

Rehmet, I had a look at the link, it doesn't mention the fastest growing religion in the world, it mentions America . A slight mistake.

Angel wrote: ....Rehmet, I had a look at the link, it doesn't mention the fastest growing religion in the world, it mentions America . A slight mistake.

Not so dear.

Looking for the �holy word�, eh!

Here is the �conversion figures� in one of the most secularist societies in the world - to try your computer.

Around 30,000 women in Switzerland have converted to Islam, according to a recent report by an organization for Muslim women.

http://www.meknes-net.com/actualites/article.php?id=3395 - http://www.meknes-net.com/actualites/article.php?id=3395 -  

I wonder how many converted to Judaism!

If still not happy � Get a copy of  "The Almanac Book of Facts", which reports the population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%.

Tawhid said:

Thanks G-d for not making me a Gentile or a woman.

I'm surprised that no women have chastised you for such an ignorant remark.

Angel said:

Israfil wrote: Tawhid said: Thanks G-d for not making me a Gentile or a woman.   I'm surprised that no women have chastised you for such an ignorant remark. ....

Well, a Jew like a Christian is not supposed to know the true nature of their own religion. The are told myths and lies about other relgion and Zionists, especially, are 'trained throughly' how to deceive Muslim readers.

The Jewish prayer 9b]Thanks G-d for not making me a Gentile or a Woman or a slave is from Jewish Holy Talmud, Shabbath 86a-86b.

Well since we are on this subject - let us read more 'interesting' Jewish 'Holy Stuff':

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Insults Against Mary the Jew, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Mary the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.

Gittin 70a . The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."

To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should >take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it loosens the limbs. Pesahim 111a.

It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads. Menahoth 43b-44a .

Israfil wrote: Tawhid said: Thanks G-d for not making me a Gentile or a woman.   I'm surprised that no women have chastised you for such an ignorant remark.   Angel said:   "wow  Are you sure you are muslim? This is a first I heard this from a muslim. Please help me out because I thought muslims believe that Islam is the only true and correct way  , ummziba, you mention above that no one should ever believe that their way is the only correct way - if this is meant for ALL then islam cannot be the only correct true path  and that there are other paths to God's light."   With one disagree for me Islam is the correct religion under the understanding through Qur'an that Allah has equipped all humans with the nature of Islam-- a Muslim nature. Angel if you have an understanding of Islam by being a member here you should know that we Muslims always say that Allah is the Lord of All Creation regardless of race, religion, sex. Allah's mercy is even upon those who are evil and good alike. Surprising you say such a statement because I have echoed this long before ummziba posted this statement. It not not strange that a Muslim says this because Islam is not exclusive to a certain people but for all the worlds.

THAT IS A LIE....when did i ever say that???????????

i did not....stop putting words in my mouth and try to pass them off as the truth

i challenge you to find ANY of my posts that said that....

my christ said..."the truth shall set you free"

tawhid

Rehmet,  please excuse me for straying slightly off topic, but I feel I must reply to Angel.

ummziba said:

"There are many paths to God's light, none of us should ever believe only our way is the correct way.

Allah is the God of everyone and everything, no one group owns rights to His mercy and love."

Angel said:

"wow  Are you sure you are muslim?

This is a first I heard this from a muslim.

Please help me out because I thought muslims believe that Islam is the only true and correct way  , ummziba, you mention above that no one should ever believe that their way is the only correct way - if this is meant for ALL then islam cannot be the only correct true path  and that there are other paths to God's light."

From The Message of the Qur'an Translated and Explained by Muhammad Asad: 

al baqarah 2:62 - "Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve."

Muhammad Asad says in his commentary: "The above passage - which recurs in the Qur'an several times - lays down a fundamental doctrine of Islam.  With a breadth of vision unparalleled in any other religious faith, the idea of "salvation" is here made conditional upon three elements only: belief in God, belief in the Day of Judgement, and righteous action in life."

It has been my understanding that Allah has been sending the same message to all peoples through all His prophets.  It is my understanding that "islam" (submission to God) is for all peoples, all places and all times.

If then, islam (submission to God), is open to all peoples, then the goal of everyone is to reach that state.  It seems to me that the path to submission to Allah is not nearly so important as actually getting there.

Please, more learned folk, correct me in this if I am wrong.

Peace, ummziba.

tawhid wrote: ....THAT IS A LIE....when did i ever say that??????????? i did not....stop putting words in my mouth and try to pass them off as the truth i challenge you to find ANY of my posts that said that.... my christ said..."the truth shall set you free" tawhid

Hold on to your 'skullcap' Rabbi - I already admitted my guilt. I quoted that Every day Jewish prayer from Holy Talmud.

Have a nice reading

ummziba wrote: ....From The Message of the Qur'an Translated and Explained by Muhammad Asad:  al baqarah 2:62 - "Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve."

With due respect to the late Jewish convert, Leopard Wies (Muhammad Assad) and you - the above translation is NOT according to the historical facts.

1. Most of Yahud (Jews) did follow the Moses' Law (Torah). They, like 95% of Jews today, follow another 'men-written' book know as 'The Talmud'. Therefore, such Jews cannot be considered 'People of Book', historically.

2. Nasarah (Christians) beliefs were even worse than the Jews during the revelation of Holy Qur'an. The vast majority of them believed in a pagan dogma of TRINITY. Therefore, they could not be the Qur'anic 'People of Book'. The true believers of Essa's (as) message (Ingeel) were known as 'Nazarene' (named after the birth-city of Essa - Nazareth). However, after the canonization of the New Testament in 325 CE - most those early followers of Ingeel were elliminated. The real founder of the present-day Christianity is St. Paul (Saul), pagan king Constantine, etc. and not the prophet Essa (as).

Wa Salaam.

With all due respect to you Rehmat, what you have said may or may not be true, but it does not refute what I have said.

I have read this verse (2:62) in many, many translations of the meaning of the Qur'an and they all pretty much convey the same message.  Did all of them interpret the verse incorrectly?

The Asad translation is not the only place I have heard that "islam" is for all peoples, all places, and all times.  Where is the proof that only Muslims will attain salvation?

Also, just to ask, what difference does it make what faith a convert to Islam used to be?  Are we not begun anew when we become Muslim?  Are not all our past sins erased?  You sound like you hold someone's conversion in contempt if they have formerly been Jewish.

I am just trying to find out if I understand this universal concept of salvation through "islam" (submission to Allah) correctly or not.

Sorry if I am being a pain to your thread!

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

To believe in Allah entails a belief in All His signs, in all His messengers, All His angels, and all His books.

Any who does not stand out upright on this criterion, is short in his belief of Allah.

2:285. The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

3:19. The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

I think, Rehmat, you may need to provide another translation of verse 2:62, if you plainly disagree as you say and I Quote ".... - the above translation is NOT according to the historical facts." with the one posted by Ummziba. Your "historical facts" and the verse are not in direct contradiction to each other. Moreover, even if only 1 out of zellion people of the book at the time of Prophet Mohammad didn't believe him, doesn't mean that there is some contradiction between the translation and your "historical facts". Quran is replete with verses chastising both jews and christians for their evil doings, however, the above mentioned translation of verse 2:62 as well as your "histroical facts" still admit the possiblity that there might be some (though, very few) of them still believing in one God and doing the right things only to please Him.

Regarding sis Nausheen's post, I think there is something more to it than simply stating that Islam is the "only" gate to havens in present times. To elaborate a little on it, when Prophet Mohammad brought Allah's message to the mankind, there was no excuse with the people (pagans or other people of the book) to refuse it. Knowing the fact that many of them accepted Islam and became muslims, however, there yet remained a large number of them who either willfully didn't accept or those to whom the message simply couldn't reach, remained at their own course. Of course those who rejected the message, despite the truth came to them, were the one called "kafirs" but those who simply couldn't get the message, were remained at large stuck to their own beliefs without rejecting Allah's  message (or reminder) that came through prophet Mohammad. I think, this is where this verse is referring to the people of the book and their reward for doing good is with Allah. Now, after prophet Mohammad, it is our (muslim ummah's) duty to convey this message to all those who don't know about this message. Again, there could be many categories of the people to whom this message is reached. Some who do understand the truth but yet don't accpet it because of their arrogance, can be called the "kafirs". There could be many other possiblities of innocent people, such as those to whom the message did reach but they did not accept it because of varrying circumstaces through which it reached to them. They may not be put into the category of "kafirs" simply because, they may have the excuse of getting this message through false media propoganda, or through some one whose Iman is not so strong. I would rather go to another step of saying that since the prophet Mohammad is not among us at this time of hour, there is inherrant human weakness in the most pious and God fearing muslim in the present time who is devoted in spreading the message of Allah, due to which some non-muslims may not get guidance and still remain at stuck with their previous beliefs. I think, it is among those who yet believe in oneness of God and do right things just to please Him, are the ones being referred in this verse. Hence, there would always remain the possibility of such people other than muslims to whom the verse refers. Theorectically speaking, Islam is not an all exculsive religion (that only Islam is the gate to success) nor it has pl uralism (that everyone's religion is ok), but it has its own character distinctly different than the other religions entirely dependent upon human wisdom through divine guidance. Rest Allah knows the best. Cheers.

Bro Rehmat,

Your quotes from "Jewish Holy Talmud"   are relatively new to me. Can you guide me as to which book is this "Talmud" in the bible (OT) or its just a collection of wise sayings by their scholars or whatever they call it. If its just that as I guessed it, then its little naive to refer them here for their original beleifs. Of course you can find the same kind of stuff in muslim literature but can anyone use it to prove anything about our faith in Allah and concepts about Islam? Even they would admit its from human source and not a devinly authored source, so whats the point in bring it here. As with muslims differring on many such humanly writings (how much they may be reflected as pious in Islamic history), there could be many among jews who may or may not agree with this "Jewish holy Talmud". Anyhow, the knowledge about this source is good in its own right, but using it to tell others about jews "true beliefs" is something else that must be avoided in all circumstances. If I am not wrong, Quran talks about "Torah" and not "Talmud". Kindly correct me if I am wrong. Thanks and cheers! 

Rehmat wrote: tawhid wrote: ....THAT IS A LIE....when did i ever say that??????????? i did not....stop putting words in my mouth and try to pass them off as the truth i challenge you to find ANY of my posts that said that.... my christ said..."the truth shall set you free" tawhid Hold on to your 'skullcap' Rabbi - I already admitted my guilt. I quoted that Every day Jewish prayer from Holy Talmud. Have a nice reading

skullcap?

are  you slandering jews for their religious outfit?

i am not jewish anyways...but that is very mature of you....do all muslims mock those who do not believe in islam?

embarrassing for you, tawhid

tawhid wrote: skullcap? are  you slandering jews for their religious outfit? i am not jewish anyways...but that is very mature of you....do all muslims mock those who do not believe in islam? embarrassing for you, tawhid

Thank for telling the readers that Jews do hate their religios 'sign' - Skullcap. Contrary to that Muslimahs love and fight for their Islamic outfit - Hijab. So do the Christians in displaying the Cross

What is your 'symbol' - BTW?

AhmadJoyia wrote: I think, Rehmat, you may need to provide another translation of verse 2:62, if you plainly disagree as you say and I Quote ".... - the above translation is NOT according to the historical facts." with the one posted by Ummziba. Your "historical facts" and the verse are not in direct contradiction to each other. Moreover, even if only 1 out of zellion people of the book at the time of Prophet Mohammad didn't believe him, doesn't mean that there is some contradiction between the translation and your "historical facts". Quran is replete with verses chastising both jews and christians for their evil doings, however, the above mentioned translation of verse 2:62 as well as your "histroical facts" still admit the possiblity that there might be some (though, very few) of them still believing in one God and doing the right things only to please Him.

Asslam-o-Aliakum

I feel my 'historical facts' has no disrespect to the message of Holy Qur'an. What I was trying to explain that the English translation doesn't do justice to those Arabic words: Yahud and Nasarah.

I have similar personal reservation when Muslim used 'God' as translation for 'Allah' - because English word 'God' doesn't even come close to Allah's limitless Attributes and His Majesty.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Bro Rehmat, Your quotes from "Jewish Holy Talmud"   are relatively new to me. Can you guide me as to which book is this "Talmud" in the bible (OT) or its just a collection of wise sayings by their scholars or whatever they call it. If its just that as I guessed it, then its little naive to refer them here for their original beleifs. Of course you can find the same kind of stuff in muslim literature but can anyone use it to prove anything about our faith in Allah and concepts about Islam? Even they would admit its from human source and not a devinly authored source, so whats the point in bring it here. As with muslims differring on many such humanly writings (how much they may be reflected as pious in Islamic history), there could be many among jews who may or may not agree with this "Jewish holy Talmud". Anyhow, the knowledge about this source is good in its own right, but using it to tell others about jews "true beliefs" is something else that must be avoided in all circumstances. If I am not wrong, Quran talks about "Torah" and not "Talmud". Kindly correct me if I am wrong. Thanks and cheers!

The Talmud is not part of the Christian Bible (NT) or the Old Testament (OT). The NT only contains five books of OT.

In the second century after Christ, Rabbi Jehuda who, because of the sanctity of his life, was called The Saint, and The Prince, realizing that the learning of the Jews was diminishing, that their oral law was being lost, and that the Jewish people were being dispersed, was the first to consider ways and means of restoring and preserving their oral law. He collected all the lists and charts and from them he made a book, which was called the Sepher Mischnaioth, or Mischnah - a Deuterosis, or secondary law. He divided it into six parts, each of which was divided into many chapters.

The Mischnah is the foundation and the principal part of the whole Talmud. This book was accepted by the Jews everywhere and was recognized as their authentic code of law. However, the ordinary Christians were kept ignorant of its hatred against Gentiles, Jesus and his mother Mary.

Yes, there is a small minority of Jews, known as �Torah Jews�, who don�t believe in Talmud � but then they also pray for the destruction of state of Israel.

http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm - http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm

Wa Salaam.

Rehmat wrote: tawhid wrote: skullcap? are  you slandering jews for their religious outfit? i am not jewish anyways...but that is very mature of you....do all muslims mock those who do not believe in islam? embarrassing for you, tawhid Thank for telling the readers that Jews do hate their religios 'sign' - Skullcap. Contrary to that Muslimahs love and fight for their Islamic outfit - Hijab. So do the Christians in displaying the Cross What is your 'symbol' - BTW?

my symbol....umm... i didnt know i needed one....

actually...i cant find one place in my doctrine that says that i must have some "symbol"

my actions...my love for my neighbors...my obedience to the one true god, my love for my parents...my love to my boss...my faithfulness to my job...my humbleness to others...my servantmindedness and my love for the King - the Christ who forgives my sins...is symbol enough

i dont have to wear some outward thing to proclaim my faith..but it is my lifestyle

a lifestyle...not an outward symbol...

in love, tawhid

[QUOTE=tawhid]...my symbol....umm... i didnt know i needed one....[Quote]

Self-denial Iznogoodh

Rehmat wrote: [QUOTE=tawhid]...my symbol....umm... i didnt know i needed one....[Quote] Self-denial Iznogoodh

brother rehmat...you are embarrassing yourself...and embarrassing your ummah with you degrading remarks...

self denial? no...

but did you just get verbally worked by me? yes

in the end...grow up little one...and lets dialogue...i though i can come here to have stimulating converstation...not mud throwing and red herring's like you and your idol ahmed deedat does

tawhid

tawhid wrote: ...brother rehmat...

What terrible thing I did to you for using such horrible 'word' for me?

blond wrote: I would like to say that a Jew who keeps his covanent with Allah is my brother in the faith; so is a Christian. I do not like to see righteous people put into the insults on those who claim to be righteous, but really are not. That is not cool.

i understand...maybe i should be more clear....

a brother in God is anyone who accepts christ as lord and for their sins forgiven through him

that is a brother in God

tawhid

tawhid wrote: ...a brother in God is anyone who accepts christ as lord and for their sins forgiven through him...

I repeat Rabbi - Hold your 'skullcap' - because what I am going to tell a 'holy secret', which could make your 'cross' and skull-cap' fly away!

Are Jews allowed to mourn a Christian Pope?

The modern Jew is the product of the Talmud... � (Babylonian Talmud)

Based on this assertion, I believe Jews are not supposed to mourn the recent death of Pope John Paul II.

Why?

Because the Talmud say so - For example:

Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore, he will be served by animals in human form - Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew - Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

What you say now Rabbi?

blond wrote: I would like to say that a Jew who keeps his covanent with Allah is my brother in the faith; so is a Christian

That's a negation of Qura'nic message. The Muslim Brotherhood (Ummah) is only among the pious Muslims and not those who don't accept the FINAL PROPHETHOOD of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the LAST TESTAMENT (Holy Qur'an) - even if those people believe in Allah (God).

Jews have no rights to Al-Quds!!!!

Egyptian Copts refused on Tuesday, April 5, to take part in any conference on proclaimed Jewish rights in the holy city of Al-Quds (occupied East Jerusalem).

Jews can�t turn black into white and claim sacred rights in Al-Quds -  Bishop Salib Matta, member of the Orthodox Copts Council.

True that Jews used to live in Al-Quds for a while, but they lived like any minority before the birth of Jesus Christ and then they were scattered across the globe and returned as occupiers to establish their state on the rubble of Palestine.

Media reports said last month preparations were underway to organize a conference in a European capital grouping Muslim, Christian and Jewish leaders on the religious rights of each faith in Al-Quds.

Matta said the Israeli claims of having rights in Al-Quds are part of stereotypes circulated by Jews.

They, to mention but a few examples, claim that they are the �chosen people of God,� forgetting the fact that they were regarded as such only before the advent of Christianity and Islam.

  http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-04/05/article07.shtml -  

Rehmat wrote: blond wrote: I would like to say that a Jew who keeps his covanent with Allah is my brother in the faith; so is a Christian That's a negation of Qura'nic message. The Muslim Brotherhood (Ummah) is only among the pious Muslims and not those who don't accept the FINAL PROPHETHOOD of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the LAST TESTAMENT (Holy Qur'an) - even if those people believe in Allah (God).

3:113. They are not all alike. Of the People of the Book there is an upright party who recite Allah�s messages in the nighttime and they adore (Him).

114. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin good and forbid evil and vie one with another in good deeds. And those are among the righteous.

115. And whatever good they do, they will not be denied it. And Allah knows those who keep their duty.

====================AND====================

69. Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians � whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good � they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Please.... show me the contridiction.

Warning!!

Rehmat,

Your attitude towards non-muslims is worse than towards some muslims.

If you do not care to mellow down, you may loose your right to participate on the forums.

Maa salaama

Nausheen wrote: Warning!! Rehmat, Your attitude towards non-muslims is worse than towards some muslims. If you do not care to mellow down, you may loose your right to participate on the forums. Maa salaama

amen

tawhid wrote: amen

Me too

Rehmat wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: I think, Rehmat, you may need to provide another translation of verse 2:62, if you plainly disagree as you say and I Quote ".... - the above translation is NOT according to the historical facts." with the one posted by Ummziba. Your "historical facts" and the verse are not in direct contradiction to each other. Moreover, even if only 1 out of zellion people of the book at the time of Prophet Mohammad didn't believe him, doesn't mean that there is some contradiction between the translation and your "historical facts". Quran is replete with verses chastising both jews and christians for their evil doings, however, the above mentioned translation of verse 2:62 as well as your "histroical facts" still admit the possiblity that there might be some (though, very few) of them still believing in one God and doing the right things only to please Him. Asslam-o-Aliakum I feel my 'historical facts' has no disrespect to the message of Holy Qur'an. What I was trying to explain that the English translation doesn't do justice to those Arabic words: Yahud and Nasarah. I have similar personal reservation when Muslim used 'God' as translation for 'Allah' - because English word 'God' doesn't even come close to Allah's limitless Attributes and His Majesty.

Oh, I see! Then what is your version of the translation for these words "Yahud and Nasarah"? Also, your personal opinon on word 'God' is well respected but I think you do know whats the underlying meaning of it when a "muslim" talks about especially with regard to Quran. I also know that often a times realization of some facts that have been distorted by specific group may make you at un ease, but one may be conscientious of his own arrogant behaviour while dealing with common people. Knowledge and wisdom brings humbleness to the attitude, however, only empty vessel makes much noise. Cheers.

Rehmat wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: Bro Rehmat, Your quotes from "Jewish Holy Talmud"   are relatively new to me. Can you guide me as to which book is this "Talmud" in the bible (OT) or its just a collection of wise sayings by their scholars or whatever they call it. If its just that as I guessed it, then its little naive to refer them here for their original beleifs. Of course you can find the same kind of stuff in muslim literature but can anyone use it to prove anything about our faith in Allah and concepts about Islam? Even they would admit its from human source and not a devinly authored source, so whats the point in bring it here. As with muslims differring on many such humanly writings (how much they may be reflected as pious in Islamic history), there could be many among jews who may or may not agree with this "Jewish holy Talmud". Anyhow, the knowledge about this source is good in its own right, but using it to tell others about jews "true beliefs" is something else that must be avoided in all circumstances. If I am not wrong, Quran talks about "Torah" and not "Talmud". Kindly correct me if I am wrong. Thanks and cheers!  The Talmud is not part of the Christian Bible (NT) or the Old Testament (OT). The NT only contains five books of OT. In the second century after Christ, Rabbi Jehuda who, because of the sanctity of his life, was called The Saint, and The Prince, realizing that the learning of the Jews was diminishing, that their oral law was being lost, and that the Jewish people were being dispersed, was the first to consider ways and means of restoring and preserving their oral law. He collected all the lists and charts and from them he made a book, which was called the Sepher Mischnaioth, or Mischnah - a Deuterosis, or secondary law. He divided it into six parts, each of which was divided into many chapters. The Mischnah is the foundation and the principal part of the whole Talmud. This book was accepted by the Jews everywhere and was recognized as their authentic code of law. However, the ordinary Christians were kept ignorant of its hatred against Gentiles, Jesus and his mother Mary. Yes, there is a small minority of Jews, known as �Torah Jews�, who don�t believe in Talmud � but then they also pray for the destruction of state of Israel. http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm - http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm Wa Salaam.

So, in the nut shell, is it not the same thing that I analysed it in my above posting? The jewish "oral law", as I understand, is kind of same as it is collection of a'hadith in Islam, though we have extremely rigorous means to authenticate them. So, we now know that this is not an authentic representation of jew's religious views. Moreover, as I saw it last night on PBS channel, there are divisions in Israel as well. Some are secular, liberals, orthodox and some few, as you have stated, the right wing extremists. I also admit that this is my first such documantery that protrayed at least some section of jews as extremists. I also don't rule out the baisness in such a presentation. However, for me the shocking thing was that their (right wing jews) attire was quite similar to those of muslim extremists. They behave and talk much the same language. Their appearences reminded me of such fanatics of my own coutry, so far so even the "skulcap" they were wearing resembles to each other what to talk of their beard size and etc. Oh, I also realize that probably you also used this word "skulcap" to make taboo of some particular faith. That's not fair. However, with all this, I also admire your knowledge of this most "secret" nation, but advise you to take a positive use of it through humbleness. Rest God, I mean Allah, knows the best. Cheers!

AhmadJoyia wrote: ....So, in the nut shell, is it not the same thing that I analysed it in my above posting? The jewish "oral law", as I understand, is kind of same as it is collection of a'hadith in Islam, though we have extremely rigorous means to authenticate them. So, we now know that this is not an authentic representation of jew's religious views........so far so even the "skulcap" they were wearing resembles to each other....

No Talmud is NOT Jewish Hadith.

The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament).

The supremacy of the Talmud over the Bible in the Israeli state may also be seen in the case of the Black Ethiopian Jews. Ethiopians have more knowledge of the Old Testament than the Israelis.

To understand the true nature of Talmud � you should read �Jewish History � Jewish Religion�, by late Professor Israel Shahak (an Israeli Jew).

No when I use the word �skullcap� � I don�t use it to degrade someone. It�s a Jewish symbol � as much of religious significance as �Cross� for Christians and �Hijab� for the Muslims.

Humility � Well, everyone has his/her own definition of it. If you mean being �an apologetic Muslim� � then, I am afraid it�s not in my nature. I spent my own time on internet � to refute �hoax� against my religion and not to �bring-in� more sheep.

My Dear Muslim and Non-Muslim brothers and Sisters! 

Be peace on you all, As Salam o Alikum!

We today are living in the world of logic and rationale. Yet, unfortunately we must have ignored a few basic and most important questions regarding our lives. Like:

(1)   What is the purpose of our life?

(2)   If we all have the same purpose then why we are divided in different religions?

(3)   If this worldly life is everything then why there is life and death?

(4)   Who is the creator of this Universe and what does he want from us?

(5)   Which is the true religion and what is thy logic?

Let us try to find the answers to these questions and I invite you all to explore them as well.

PURPOSE OF CREATION:   To exactly find the answer to this question we will have to go back to the origin of Human life. Science estimates that human life came to existence about 400,000 years ago while it claims to have discovered the earliest fossils of 40000 years old human.

While the Old Testament or the Torah says life is 10000 years old. So when Torah said this, it�s been almost another 3000 years. This adds the total to 13000 years. I would agree to this and am also of the opinion that the human civilization is not older than 15000 years, and now it is about to complete its age.

Before the Human civilization on earth the Jinns (creation of Fire) used to live. But and once they had turned this earth into hell due to chaos, bloodshed and wars, Allah ordered the angels along with some righteous Jinns to destroy their civilization. Lucifer whom we today call as the devil or the Satan was among the most pious Jinns.

He with his sincerity and dedication earned a very respectable place in heavens and became the head of all the righteous Jinns. Soon he became conceit and proud of himself. Allah who knows even the thoughts in our hearts not only disliked it but also put Lucifer to the test. Allah announced that He is creating a being as his deputy on earth out of clay. So once Allah had created Adam (though without soul) He provided Satan with full opportunity to see and judge the Adam. So once Satan was sure of it that the new creation (of clay) is inferior to him he was satisfied.

Now Allah ordered all angels and Jinns in heaven to bow in front of Adam after He had spelled His sprit in it. Upon this the Lucifer refused to bow on the false pretext of his superiority and creation from fire. He had failed the test.

Allah ordered him to leave the heavens as disgraced and rejected. At this point rather to repent for his arrogance Satan challenged Allah that Adam or the Human civilization is not worthy enough to be given the status of �Deputy (Caliph of Allah).�

The incident is covered in detail at almost six places in Quran. These are:         Sura Baqra-2, verse 30-40,    Sura Araaf-7, verse 11-30,    Sura Bani Israel-17, verse 61-67,    Sura Saad-38, verse 71-85,    Sura Hijar-15, verse 28-43,   Sura Kahaf-18, verse-50,      Sura Taha-20, verse 115-123.

At this point Satan also challenged Allah that he can prove that Human kind is not worthy of the honour which Allah has bestowed upon. So he asked Allah to give him time so as to prove his claim, which Allah granted him.

Now look at his words, in which he challenges, �He (Lucifer) said: As Thou hast caused me to go astray (by putting me to test), I will certainly lie in wait for them in Thy straight path o Then I will certainly come to them from front and from behind and from their right-hand side and from their left-hand side; and Thou shalt not find most of them thankful o� (Sura Araaf-7, verse 16-17).

�He (Lucifer) said: See for thyself: Is this the one whom Thou have honored over me? If Thou grant respite me to the day of resurrection, I will most certainly obliterate (and cast astray) its complete civilization except for very few o� (Sura Bani Israel-17, verse-62).

Adam and eve were then sent to heaven but they were told to stay away from a tree as a test. Satan beguiled them and they disobeyed the commandment of Allah. This event was merely a reminder for rest of the man kind that should not act on the advice of Satan and must not believe in his promises as his only aim is to cast you off the righteous track. That�s the reason we find this incident common to all the three divine religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. So we all acknowledge that Satan is our sole enemy.

Thus Brothers and Sisters we have been sent in this world for a test and the result would be simple, those who fail will be rewarded in hell and the successful will soothe in the heavens. The path has been laid down for us now the choice is ours. And anyone who thinks that we will earn a place in heaven without any worship and hardship he has actually fallen in the trap laid down by the Satan. You can�t fetch good grade or position in any exam without extreme hard work and neither can you stay in job without working for full hours.

So how can you expect to land in heaven without any worship or hardship. But majority of humans including Muslims as well have fallen in this trap. So merely believing in Muhammad, Jesus or Moses (May peace be on them all) will not fetch you the salvation.

DIFFERENT RELIGIONS:      All human were created from one seed, Adam and Eve. So initially there was one religion and that was to worship one God. Later Satan lured humans off the right path and they started worshiping the seen and distant things like moon, sun, star, idols etc.

Every time humans would go astray, Allah selected His messenger to guide them to the right path and gave them divine revelations. Each time this happened, and time and again Satan would cast them away by motivating them to make alterations in the Holy Scriptures. This continued on till ages until Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came in this world. But this time Allah Almighty announced that Muhammad is the last messenger and Quran is the last revelation and from now on no messenger will be sent forth.

However what unusual happened this time was that Allah pronounced that no one will have the power or authority to make any alterations in the last revelation �Quran� till the end of this world. So anyone who is interested to find the truth, he can consult it from the Last Testament (Quran). But the struggle between the good and evil continued and is to last till the doomsday.

Now one important question arises here that why all the alliances had to come in existence against Islam or Muslims. Whether it be Balkans, or Chechnya, Kashmir or Palestine, Sudan or Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan. All forces are acting for one purpose alone, �TO TARGET ISLAM�. They can�t see a state with Islamic ideology but only with a secular identity. While Islam has no trouble to see the Western style democracy as a form of government. We can see for ourselves as to how multi-religious nations have formed an alliance against Muslims before the coming of anti-Christ or Dajjal (as we call him).

There can only be two possibilities that either all other religions are wrong and Islam is right or either Islam is wrong and all other religions are right.

Surely Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and all other religions have altogether contrast teachings and one can easily conclude that who are obeying Allah and who are following Lucifer. And to find out which is the true religion we will have to consult the religious scriptures. And only Quran is in its original form.

If Judaism says that we are the chosen people and whatsoever we do to the Gentiles or Goyims we will not be asked in the hereafter. Well this is an unjust claim and must be rejected as folly of Satan. And if we can�t become Jew then why were we created we never wanted to be treated as animals or live like a third grade citizen? Then is the god of Jews unjust? But the Real and One God is not, and cannot be unjust. So again this is trap of Satan.

If Christianity says that only believing in Jesus (as Son of god) will take you to heaven then Jesus should have been the first one to descent from heavens and all messengers should have delivered the same message. And if he is the son then where is the mother? What about other children? Did god had only one son in ages and why not more? Is this possible that god is one as well as three at the same time? Which is this math by the way 1+1+1=1?

So there is one religion for all to believe in one God and to submit to his commandments since the Prophet Adam. What else exists is the distorted picture of true religion at the hands of Lucifer.

IF THIS IS THE ONLY LIFE THEN WHAT LIFE AND DEATH MEANS?     Some people would say that this is the only life and there is nothing in the hereafter. Well then who sends us in this world and where do we go after death?

What comes in us and what go out of us and who controls it?

Why to adhere to ethics and morality them?

The only purpose then should be survival, earn fame, money and good position in the society?

Why the nature is unjust as one is born limbless, blind or poor while other is rich?

We don�t see any loophole in nature then why this injustice in humans?

If one manages to escape justice in his life even after killing hundreds, collecting money through drugs etc then where to seek for justice?

Unfortunately most Muslims have also fallen in the trap set by Lucifer. Most think that Prophet Muhammad (MPBUH) will save them from hell even if they don�t perform the righteous deeds and by merely believing in Muhammad as the last messenger they get license to heaven. The concept seems to be inspired from that of Christians and Jews. Against the teachings of Islam they are divided into sects and everyone is confident that he has the license to heaven and most have indulged in the practice of Shrik (associating partners with Allah). Like some follow the distorted teachings of Sufism while praying to the dead, for some the personal whims and desires have sought top most preference, while others consider nationalism and secularism as superior to Allah and Islam.

So the non-Muslims should not worry, they certainly will find lot of Muslims also burning in the hell alongside them. Bearing Muslim names does not qualify a person for heaven.

Another question arises that is religion a personal affair. Definitely not, will someone insolently pass over his brother�s house on fire just commenting that �Its his personnel affair?� No, he would try to put off that fire. Similarly we must try to save our Muslim and non-Muslim brothers and sisters from entering the hellfire. They are not our enemy rather the Satan is who has mystified them. So please help them in finding the right path as we will be asked that whether we delivered the message or not?    

WHO IS CREATOR AND WHAT HE WANTS FROM US?      

Allah our creator and what He wants from us is clearly stated in His last and Final Revelations The Quran. However, in short He wants from us,

1. Not to associate partners with Him.
2. Worship Him alone.
3. Believe in Angels, all His revelations and messengers.
4. Believe in the Day of Judgment.
5. Pray 5 times a day, fasting 30 days a month, pay Zakat (charity), perform Hajj once in life time.
6. Do not kill any innocent, obey your parents, treat others gently and avoid intimate relationship with others except for your legitimate life partner.
7.  Avoid social evils like adultery, stealing, drinking liquor, gambling etc.
8.  Struggle for the creation of ideal and peaceful society on Islamic principles progressively using all available means (Preaching, Teaching, Education, Dialogue, Personal example and force if necessary, but not on others for conversion).

TRUE RELIGION AND LOGIC:

Why Islam is a true religion:

1. It is in its purest form and safe from alteration.
2. Its teachings are the same since Adam.
3. It provides all the solutions to all existing issues.
4. It has no contradictions in the divine revelations and is 100% compatible with modern and technology.
5. It offers solutions as how to achieve the end state by creating an Islamic society.
6. It offers unique and equal rights within the laid down framework for men, women and even animals. 
7. It offers a direct contact with God (Allah Almighty) with no intermediates and channels.
8. It makes sure that all previous divine revelations (Torah, Zaboor, Injeel etc) and all messengers of God should be accepted and believed in.

THE MESSAGE STANDS OUT CLEARLY CHOICE IS YOURS.           

Shams Zaman  Pakistan 

mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Shams Zaman wrote: ....While the Old Testament or the Torah says life is 10000 years old. So when Torah said this, it�s been almost another 3000 years. ......

Before putting my 'two cents worth' - let me say - Well done brother.

However, according to the Old Testament including the New Testament - the World with human life on it - is only 3,800 years old!

Wa Salaam

Shams Zaman wrote: ...We today are living in the world of logic and rationale.......   PURPOSE OF CREATION:   ..... Science estimates that human life came to existence about 400,000 years ago while it claims to have discovered the earliest fossils of 40000 years old human. While the Old Testament or the Torah says life is 10000 years old. So when Torah said this, it�s been almost another 3000 years. This adds the total to 13000 years. I would agree to this and am also of the opinion that the human civilization is not older than 15000 years, and now it is about to complete its age.

Shams Zaman wrote: ...Before the Human civilization on earth the Jinns (creation of Fire) used to live. But and once they had turned this earth into hell due to chaos, bloodshed and wars, Allah ordered the angels along with some righteous Jinns to destroy their civilization.

From where you got this story? I mean, what is your source for life of jinns on earth and their mutual wars etc? Though I am not an expert on Quranic studies, but I think I haven't come across any such description anywhere in Quran? Is it from some hadiths that I don't know?

Shams Zaman wrote: ......... So once Allah had created Adam (though without soul) He provided Satan with full opportunity to see and judge the Adam. So once Satan was sure of it that the new creation (of clay) is inferior to him he was satisfied.

This is to reply all who have been generous to offer comments on the topic. I had initially said we live in the world of logic and rationale but didn�t offer all the scientific logics because the document would have been too lengthy. As few readers have correctly pointed out. However I would justify as follow.

FOR MUSLIM BROTHERS

As for what Bible (Old Testament) says about Human life, my exact calculations may have gone wrong. However, these were based as follow:

From Adam to Noah = 1056 years, Noah age 950 years, Noah to Abraham = 381 years and Ishaq was born once Abraham was 100. From Jacob to Exodus it counts to   730 years. (Genesis- Ch,5 verse1-32, Ch11, verse10-32, Ch21, verse6, Ch47, verse 28, Ch50, verse 26 and Exodus- Ch 12, verse 37-41). Therefore this total comes to 3117 years (lets round it to 3500). For the period after the exodus covered in Old or New Testament I have not read that. From here I count on history.

Jesus came approx 1500 years after Moses so it totals up to 5000 years. Add another 2000 years it comes to 7000 years. But as to why I would assume that Human Life span is not older than 15000 years, because Quran and Hadith (according to my reading) does not offer any estimates. However, some Muslim scholars who have offered Quranic explanations estimate it to be as such. Well it can�t be claimed for sure.  

However, according to an article published in Newsweek a couple of years ago it mentioned that as per Gospels life is not older than 10000 years. But now I can�t recall that article. As for Human fossil of 30000 B.C you can check it up to agree or disagree at: 

 http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040705/longevity.html   

 As to what Mr. Ahmed Joya has objected to the Juedo-Christian myths, sorry there is nothing to cheer as my source remains to be Quran, Sunnah and the Companions of Prophet (mpbuh) Sahabbah.

Jinns inhabitation:  

Narrated by Hazrat Abdullah bin Umer (RA), �2000 years before the birth of Adam Jinns were the inhabitants on earth but due to their bloodshed and fitna (anarchy), Allah sent angels who killed most of them while some took refuge on remote islands and forests.� Quoted by Hazrat Abu Jafar from Ibn-a- Ibe Hatem (RA) written in �The Narrations of Prophets� (Qasas-ul-Anbiya) by Hafiz Imam Ibn-a-Kaseer.  Also narrated by Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbas (RA) real uncle of the Prophet (mpuh) in the same book.

Allah Provided Satan with Full Opportunity.   Narrated in Sahih Muslim and also compiled in Maskaat Volume 3 Chapter Creation of Adam, Hadith no 5457, Hazrat Anas(RA) narrated that, Holy Prophet said, �Once Allah created Adam�s body, He left it in the heaven without casting his sprit for a time of which He knows. Lucifer started circling around to see as what it is? On looking inside, he discovered it to be unsound.�

In my opinion its not always necessary that science and logic/ rationale would always go together. Like how animals can sense the natural disasters before hand? What is sprit? Where it rests? Why 30 C dose of Homeopathy works? How specific species evolved into Human? Who are angels? Etc, science has no answers.

So occasionally we will have to use both but sometimes one. If science says there is no God or it believes that what it has found is a fossil of a 40000 years old man, or Humans have evolved from monkeys. I will use my logic or rationale over science. There are numerous reasons due to which I don�t think that life may be as old as 40000 years.

And why the world is about to see its end, not only Quran and Ahadiths clearly foretells it but science also points to the same very direction. The global warming, green house effects, the on going conflicts and threat of nuclear war and melting of ice at the poles, water crisis and diminishing energy reserves etc are the indicators. Holy Prophet had warned that once war over gold (oil/ Black gold) will start the emergence of Anti-Christ or Dajjal will be imminent. There are numerous sites which can give you information regarding major and minor signs of Doomsday. Like:

www.wakeupmuslims.com  

FOR NON � MUSLIM BROTHERS.

Dear sister Laurie, I am not offering anyone to change his or her religion. I am presenting a logical picture for The Purpose of creation in the light of Islamic Teachings. If it appeals you or seems to be logical you can accept it and if it doesn�t appeal well we are free to make our choices.

As to how I can prove that Prophet Muhammad (MPBH) was the messenger of God. Well I don�t think I will be able to do that. I can only give it a try. Can you convince a Jew that Jesus (MPBH) was a messenger of God? He will use a blasphemous language, or if someone says as to prove how Jesus was raised up alive? Or how he gave life to the dead by the will of God? I can�t offer any proof but to say that these were the miracles and as God say so, I have no reason for defiance. He has created me and will also raise me alive on the Day of Judgement and he also gave me so much which I may not deserve owing to my abilities. So if you can spare sometime the best would be to download the required articles from:-

http://www.irf.net/irf/download/index.htm

However, I can only give it a try.

(1)   Prophet Muhammad was not literate and he could not produce a book at his own.

(2)   He could not have written a book which contains warning notes for him as well.

(3)    How can he have written a book which contains no scientific error till to date and even contains instructions on cloning, Black Hole, Big Bang theories and even indicates towards the incident of 9/11.

(4)   How can he have written a book 1400 years ago of his own which challenges that not a single word of this book can be altered. And till to date it still stands by its challenge.

(5)   Can you name any book which is read so much and even is memorised word by word by more than 30 million Muslims around the world (according to careful estimates).

(6)   Can you name any person who has been so successful in religious, political and ethical form like of Prophet Muhammad? Michel Heart didn�t find a one and has named Prophet Muhammad first place, Albert Einstein second and Prophet Jesus third place in his book �The 100 � A study of Great people since ages.� Similarly Arnold Toynbee in his �Study of History� says that no one could deliver such a concise and detailed message on Human values and rights before Prophet Muhammad�s Last Sermon at Mecca. And there are numerous others as well like Prof. Montgomery Wyatt, Conston Vergil Gorego (Romania) etc.

SUFISM :  I have very little knowledge about Sufism. It is not for me because it requires a lot of sacrifice which I may not be able to offer. Secondly there is a lot more danger of Satan to ride you off the track as you sometimes have to experience some revelations from God. This sometimes may become difficult to contemplate correctly for everyone.

 FREE WILL:   Most of us say that Islam poses lot of restrictions. I always says which religion doesn�t? Like see for yourself the instructions contained in Torah or the Old Testament for Jews and Christians. Please read only two books Exodus chapter 18 � 40 and Leviticus Chapter 1 � 27. How much orders and instructions these contains. I always ask a question that what are the limits of freedom and always one would say these are not unlimited. Like if I say that I want to drive on the wrong side of the road because its my free will? Can I do that? Of course I can but then I will be in Jail. Can I place a loud speaker near my neighbour�s window? Yes at the cost of state punishment. Why because I am infringing the state laws. Whether I like it or not I will have to abide by them or face the consequences. I can enjoy my freedom till I don�t infringe with the rights of other. Similarly, Islam offers you free will till you don�t infringe the rights of God, your parents, your other fellow Muslims and the state. So freedom is always defined within the specified boundaries.

WHAT BIBLE SAYS ABOUT MUHAMMAD

In the Hebrew scripture Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5:16. The Hebrew word used there is �Muhammuddim�. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be Muhamud translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHUMMED! (P.B.U.H).

 At other place Bible foretells about a Prophet who will follow Moses:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18

Well if you ask from Christians as to whom does this prophecy refer? Without the slightest hesitation Christians answer: "JESUS!" but "Why Jesus?... his name is not mentioned here.

So they will say that the most important words of this prophecy are(like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses and Jesus is like Moses because firstly Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses.

But if you ask them that if these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses like Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL "Jews" as well as "Prophets". Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus?

My conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me.

In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to Christians belief:- (1)  'Jesus is a god', but Moses is not god.

(2)    'Jesus died for the sins of the world', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world.

(3)     'Jesus went to hell for three days', but Moses did not have to go there.

(4)     Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother.   But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father.

(5)     "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life.

(6)     "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural way.

(7)      "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. While Jesus gained this status almost 200 years after his rising.

(8)    "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people.

(9)    "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as political leaders of their nations. As regards Jesus he brought no new laws, 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18)

(10)Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths.

"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses!"    

May Allah guide us all to the truth.

Shams Zaman   Pakistan

[email protected]             

Sorry wron comments went on wrong pages. I would request the web master to delete my upper two comments;

Its an interesting debate on the Judaism and Christianity. I would like to add that I have lot of love and extreme dislike for the Jews. Most will laugh at it that what kind of a statement is this?  Before elaborating this statement I would to like to give certain historical facts.

Before Muslims the Jews were the sacred people as also narrated by Allah in Sura Bakra (The Cow- 2, verse- 47) �O children of Israel! Recall My favours which I bestowed on you and that I gave you preference over all other nations�.  They are my cousins as we are from the same ancestor Prophet Abraham. Thirdly their lot of religious customs still match with those of Muslims, like slaughter, covering their heads, avoiding pork and wine, observing fast etc. But why I dislike them (not all) because they have destroyed the peace of this world, because their Talmudic teachings preaches that Goyims are just like animals and you can treat them in whatever manner you want. They house Zionist and ultra orthodox Jews who aims to destroy all other nations (morally, economically) and control them physically through coercive methods.

Lot of people will say that the �Protocols of Learned Elders of Zion� are merely conspiracy theories but I won�t buy that idea. If these are conspiracy theories then why everything is happening according to these protocols. The same answer was asked by Mr. Henry Ford in his famous book �The International Jew.�

Talmud is in fact the most sacred book of Jews after Torah. This is the book of Jewish �Fiqah� and the Jewish religious Law as well. So to say that Talmud is not their authentic book is not correct. I can�t say it to a Jew or he will kick me out.

There are deep divisions amongst Jews like of Muslims and Christians. The verses of Sura Al-Imran -3, Verse 105, �And be not like those who have divided themselves into sects after clear orders had come to them, and that these are the people for whom there is grievous chastisement� and Sura Inaam - 6, verse 159, �Surely they, who split their religion into bits and pieces and divided themselves into sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did� were revealed regarding Jews as by that time only Jews had divided themselves into sects. Now they fit in Muslim and Christian context as well.

The Jews have fought very fiercely among themselves for centuries and a detailed account can be read in the book �Rising Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel� by Israel Shahak and Norton Merzinski. There is yet another branch of Jews with the name of �Naturi Karta� who are opposed to plan of Greater Israel and Zionism. The information on Zionist Jews as to how they rule America can be accessed at following famous sites:

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/ - www.alfredlilienthal.com   (a Jewish retired congressman)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ - www.ifamericansknew.org

http://www.nkuk.org/ - www.nkuk.org

Dajjal will be a Jewish in origin The Long Awaited Messiah and the time of his emergence seems to be near. An article on �Freemasons the forerunners of Dajjal� can be down loaded from :

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm - www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/index.htm

Shams Zaman    Pakistan

mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Shams Zaman wrote: ....Lot of people will say that the �Protocols of Learned Elders of Zion� are merely conspiracy theories but I won�t buy that idea. If these are conspiracy theories then why everything is happening according to these protocols. The same answer was asked by Mr. Henry Ford in his famous book �The International Jew.�....

Wa Salaam

Unfortunately Sir you are true and now they are after the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Iran is also on their target. Almost 40% of the most influential posts in US Admnistration are held by Zionist Jews. The famous book of Mr. Paul Findly "They Dare to Speak Out" an ex-American congressmen is sufficient to open the eyes of all of us.

Shams Zaman Pakistan.  

Shams Zaman wrote: Unfortunately Sir you are true and now they are after the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Iran is also on their target. Almost 40% of the most influential posts in US Admnistration are held by Zionist Jews. The famous book of Mr. Paul Findly "They Dare to Speak Out" an ex-American congressmen is sufficient to open the eyes of all of us. Shams Zaman Pakistan.

Paul Findley's second book 'Silence no more' is another eye opner for the 'duped' American public. However, here is a link which can take you to the very root of the world problems.

http://www.radioislam.net/islam/english/toread/frnklin.htm - http://www.radioislam.net/islam/english/toread/frnklin.htm

Wa Salaam

Shams Zaman wrote: This is to reply all who have been generous to offer comments on the topic. I had initially said we live in the world of logic and rationale but didn�t offer all the scientific logics because the document would have been too lengthy. As few readers have correctly pointed out. However I would justify as follow. FOR MUSLIM BROTHERS As for what Bible (Old Testament) says about Human life, my exact calculations may have gone wrong. However, these were based as follow: From Adam to Noah = 1056 years, Noah age 950 years, Noah to Abraham = 381 years and Ishaq was born once Abraham was 100. From Jacob to Exodus it counts to   730 years. (Genesis- Ch,5 verse1-32, Ch11, verse10-32, Ch21, verse6, Ch47, verse 28, Ch50, verse 26 and Exodus- Ch 12, verse 37-41). Therefore this total comes to 3117 years (lets round it to 3500). For the period after the exodus covered in Old or New Testament I have not read that. From here I count on history. Jesus came approx 1500 years after Moses so it totals up to 5000 years. Add another 2000 years it comes to 7000 years. But as to why I would assume that Human Life span is not older than 15000 years, because Quran and Hadith (according to my reading) does not offer any estimates. However, some Muslim scholars who have offered Quranic explanations estimate it to be as such. Well it can�t be claimed for sure.

Wow! what a case presentation. On one side you are providing a scientific evidence and on the other side you say your calculations (based on unauthentic references) are not sure, but then you conclude  that you based your opinion on your calculations. Where is the logic to reach your conclusion? I am amazed. BTW before opening a book, it is always important to look at its author as who says what. Have you confirmed the authorship of the OT that you are quoting from? Kindly let me know if you have. Thanks  

Shams Zaman wrote:  As to what Mr. Ahmed Joya has objected to the Juedo-Christian myths, sorry there is nothing to cheer as my source remains to be Quran, Sunnah and the Companions of Prophet (mpbuh) Sahabbah.

Ma Sha Allah! so, it is indeed a matter of cheers that you say that you have chosen the right references; Isn't it?

Shams Zaman wrote: Jinns inhabitation:   Narrated by Hazrat Abdullah bin Umer (RA), �2000 years before the birth of Adam Jinns were the inhabitants on earth but due to their bloodshed and fitna (anarchy), Allah sent angels who killed most of them while some took refuge on remote islands and forests.� Quoted by Hazrat Abu Jafar from Ibn-a- Ibe Hatem (RA) written in �The Narrations of Prophets� (Qasas-ul-Anbiya) by Hafiz Imam Ibn-a-Kaseer.  Also narrated by Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbas (RA) real uncle of the Prophet (mpuh) in the same book.

I would comment on this as one must ascertain that the only true source regarding matters not related to this world are through Allah and his messanger (Prophet Mohammad). Big respect for shahaba, but they are not qualified at their own (without quoting it from Prophet Mohammad) to say anything about things which are beyond human mind or logic. They can't be primary source of such information. So, brother kindly let me know which hadith is it that relates this story. So, till that time the reference you provided may remain unvalid. BTW kindly verify if Hazrat Abbas was the real uncle or his son  (Hazrat Ibn-e- Abbas) was his real uncle?

Shams Zaman wrote: Allah Provided Satan with Full Opportunity.   Narrated in Sahih Muslim and also compiled in Maskaat Volume 3 Chapter Creation of Adam, Hadith no 5457, Hazrat Anas(RA) narrated that, Holy Prophet said, �Once Allah created Adam�s body, He left it in the heaven without casting his sprit for a time of which He knows. Lucifer started circling around to see as what it is? On looking inside, he discovered it to be unsound.�

I was glad to see a hadith reference in your quote, but am saddly disappointed not find it on my search in the Sahih Muslim. Kindly let me know what is the reference from sahih muslim himself. Following is the link for the collection of Sahih Muslim that I used to search on the internet and couldn't find it. If you can help me find it from it, I shall highly appreciate.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim /

Shams Zaman wrote: And why the world is about to see its end, not only Quran and Ahadiths clearly foretells it but science also points to the same very direction. The global warming, green house effects, the on going conflicts and threat of nuclear war and melting of ice at the poles, water crisis and diminishing energy reserves etc are the indicators. Holy Prophet had warned that once war over gold (oil/ Black gold) will start the emergence of Anti-Christ or Dajjal will be imminent. There are numerous sites which can give you information regarding major and minor signs of Doomsday. Like: www.wakeupmuslims.com

I thought you are going to present some "logic ( that you initially claimed and then reiterated in this quote as well)" to use to support your opinon that you stated. Mere conjectures ...., well there is nothing new in them. Of course we believe on the day of judgement, but we also believe that no body knows except Allah and Allah alone. So it would be naive to say the earth is about to complete its life merely through conjectures. Prophet did foretell us about some of the indications before the final day of judgement, but never ever hinted upon how much time would elapse between them to the last day. Anyone guessing on them would only be a heresy. May Allah guide us all. Amen. Cheers.

Daniel Dworsky wrote: Rehmat The talmud is so NOT holier than the bible. The protocols of the elders of Zion is bunk ....

Wrong on both accounts

The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book. Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament) � From �The Truth about Talmud, by Dr. Alan R. Critchley

Genocide Advocated by Talmud

Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the Gentiles should all be killed").

This passage is not from the Soncino edition but is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, "Gentile," (p. 617).

This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The Jewish Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the reading has been altered, 'The best among the Egyptians' being generally substituted." In the Soncino version: "the best of the heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim 41a-b].

Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press of June 9, 1989, p. 56B).

On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Khazar from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Rabbi Kahane who has stated that his view of Arabs as "dogs" is "from the Talmud." (Cf. CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").

Univ. of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against 'goyim,' a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5). Rabbi Yaacov Perrin says, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

Regarding 'The Protocols' - read my earlier post.

Daniel Dworsky wrote: Calling Ginzberg and Kahane Jews is like calling Goebles and Eichman Christians and Osama Ben Laden a Muslim......

Living in self-denial Iznogoodh.

Both Goebles and Eichman were Catholics. Former was a practicing Catholic while the later was a confessed Zionist.

Both Ginzber and Kahane were born Jewish. Both were terrorist and murderers. Kahane was the founder of the most facist Jewish organization in the US - JDL and his grave in Israel is always surrounded by his Jewish settler-supporters and worshippers.

Mybe you should check with your Rabbi to confirmed that 'once a born Jew - is always a Jew even if become an atheist'.

Osama bin Laden is born into a Muslim family. He is considered a 'hero' by tens of million Mulsms and non-Muslims all over the world for his courage to defy the US and Israel -and not as an Islamic scholar.

Daniel Dworsky wrote: And this is where I press Un notify me.

I never expected you to face the truth - and that's what we call 'self-denial' in English.

On April 6, 2005, PBS Frontline aired an interesting documentary entitled �Israel's Next War�, which made clear that most, if not all, of the Jewish extremists that this PBS documentary chose to focus on were followers of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, who was an advocate of forcing all Arabs out of the land of Israel. In conjunction with this, he also waged a campaign to rid Israel of all Christian missionaries and pseudo-Christian cults. This brings out yet another irony, since the Dispensationalist Evangelical Christian who staunchly support Israel will end up having their so-called "Good News" banned from it. Not only that, but many of the Arabs that Rabbi Kahane and other Jewish extremists want to expel from Israel are Arab (Palestinian) Christians. The irony here being that Dispensationalist Christians will only be able to get the "righteous" Israel which they so fervently desire if grave injustices are committed against fellow (albeit Arab) Christians.

Here is the story of this racist Jewish �holyman�.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane

Rehmat wrote: On April 6, 2005, PBS Frontline aired an interesting documentary entitled �Israel's Next War�, which made clear that most, if not all, of the Jewish extremists that this PBS documentary chose to focus on were followers of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, ..........

True, but I don't know if they (extremists) represent any significant % of population in whole Israel? At least from the documentary it was appeared that they are in very small %. Probably that is the reason that the government still take chances to restrict them. Any statistics on that??

AhmadJoyia wrote: ...True, but I don't know if they (extremists) represent any significant % of population in whole Israel? At least from the documentary it was appeared that they are in very small %. Probably that is the reason that the government still take chances to restrict them. Any statistics on that??

It all depends how you perceive 'extremists'. 95% of Jewish population in Israel consists of European and Moroccan settlers, who grabbed native Muslim and Christian land by 'hook or crook'. If they have true followers of Moses' Law (like Torah Jews who opposes the very existence of Zionist State) - they would not have applied those 'extremist nature as preached by Talmud). Therefore, to me - with counting 'democratic heads' - all those Jews are 'extremists'.

Israeli government actions against the 'extremists' is just a Zionist ploy to fool the Arabs and the world. They have been playing such 'deceptive measures' since 1950s - while grabbing more and more Palestinian land on continuos basis - so much so that now over three million natives inside PA lives on less than 20% land and allowed to consume 10% of its water resources.

BTW - The Jewish population of Palestine just before WW I was 5% and they owned only 2.5% land (UN records).

AhmadJoyia wrote: ....However, this may not necessarily be applied to the people (the individuals) living in it since long time (at least 50 years now); as we know that the children of initial settlers....

You mean you believe in might is right and not morality.

If settlers children lived for 50 years - What would you say about the Arab Muslim and Christian children who lived in the same land for 1300 year before these European settler invaded?

Was not the same logic the Christian missionaries used when they gave 'Fatwas' to European settlers to practice ethnic-cleansing of Native Americans - which resulted in massacre of 100-180 million people?

Oh, one thing more to support your theory - When the survival of Israel is inquestion - Jewish morality doesn't come into the picture - David Gurion.

Dear Bro Rehmat,

Probably you are too far streching my opinion to make a case of "might" vs "morality". That was not my intentions. All I am trying to convey is to filter out the typical styreotype allegations against Jews as Jewish religion and treat them same as people living in a state which has a terrorist ideology for the expansion of their territorial land or as I called them "terrorist state". If we happen to  talk to some individuals in that state, we should be carefull not to list that individual as extremist or terrorist based on our image about that state. What applies to their state is not necessarily be true while dealing with the individuals in that state. I hope I have cleared myself. I feel that we should develop a sense of mutual respect for each other once we are talking to each other at an individual's level. Try to listen to their arguments and similarly convey them our own views about them. The first thing is to learn about the individual's own belief and faith and then talk to them about their idea of state actions. Asking more and "listen" than "saying" is the best rule that I have found with my own little experience. And if they happen to accede to your view, then instead of discouraging them by calling them .......(names)..its better to rather encourage them for their moral ethics to accept the basic norms of morality. This way we all shall be able to create more harmony among us than discord. One personal suggestion for you brother (if you like it then take it but if you don't then simply ignore it that it never existed). Knowledge without wisdom is useless; and in that sense, use your knowledge wisely. With your argumentive based knowlegde you may win over a debate but may not the "hearts". Think what is more important and decide for your own self. May Allah bless us all. Amen.

AhmadJoyia wrote: .... Knowledge without wisdom is useless; and in that sense, use your knowledge wisely. With your argumentive based knowlegde you may win over a debate but may not the "hearts". Think what is more important and decide for your own self. May Allah bless us all. Amen....

Let me introduce you to the 'Reality Channel - Knowledge is for the seeker - but wisdom is a God-given gift - Since you pretend to got both of them - Let me the first one to congratulate you.

As for your 'vision' of 'Terrorists, innocent Israelis, and the good Jews' - let some practicing Jew bring you out of your great perspective of Palestinian situation - No other than some Rabbis.

http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm - http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm  

And once you finish listening to them - do yourself a favour by not believing everything CNN or Saudis propagandist tell you.

Dear Ahmed Joya

Sorry for the late reply. Well dear we all use different logics and different assumptions for various things. Christians have thier own, Muslima their own and Jews have their own. Its not always that your logic matches with the other. Similarly we may share the same religion but use different logic. For me the Shbbahas(RA) are equally authentic but a degree lesser to the Prophet's Hadiths. The Haduth did not came from the Angel Gabrail but from the Sahabbah so if you do not consider their quote as authentic perhaps the Hadith will also become un-authentic. Similarly if some scientific fact goes against your faith or logic you certainly will refute it. I disagree with the Darwin theory regardless of the point whether science consider it to be worthwile or not. Regarding the question of whether we are heading towards the end of this world or net or not you can just type Signs of Dooms day in your search engine and you will see what the Holy Prophet has fortold us in this regard. I am sure you will reach the right conclusion. Give me some time and I will translate it on a document to send it to you (Insha Allah). If I lived till that time.

Shams Zaman      Pakistan   ; [email protected]

Rehmat wrote: Let me introduce you to the 'Reality Channel - Knowledge is for the seeker - but wisdom is a God-given gift - Since you pretend to got both of them - Let me the first one to congratulate you.

No, thanks! let me remain fool and unwise (atleast a door open to improve upon myself).

Rehmat wrote: As for your 'vision' of 'Terrorists, innocent Israelis, and the good Jews' - let some practicing Jew bring you out of your great perspective of Palestinian situation - No other than some Rabbis. http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm - http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm

Your link seems to support my stance more than ever. Think, if any of these Rabbis happen to converse with you on this forum, how would you deal with him?

Rehmat wrote: And once you finish listening to them - do yourself a favour by not believing everything CNN or Saudis propagandist tell you.

Got it. But, I think I am already under the debt of your knowledge about them.  

Shams Zaman wrote: Dear Ahmed Joya Sorry for the late reply. Well dear we all use different logics and different assumptions for various things. Christians have thier own, Muslima their own and Jews have their own. Its not always that your logic matches with the other. Similarly we may share the same religion but use different logic. For me the Shbbahas(RA) are equally authentic but a degree lesser to the Prophet's Hadiths. The Haduth did not came from the Angel Gabrail but from the Sahabbah so if you do not consider their quote as authentic perhaps the Hadith will also become un-authentic. Similarly if some scientific fact goes against your faith or logic you certainly will refute it. I disagree with the Darwin theory regardless of the point whether science consider it to be worthwile or not. Regarding the question of whether we are heading towards the end of this world or net or not you can just type Signs of Dooms day in your search engine and you will see what the Holy Prophet has fortold us in this regard. I am sure you will reach the right conclusion. Give me some time and I will translate it on a document to send it to you (Insha Allah). If I lived till that time. Shams Zaman      Pakistan   ; ; [email protected]

Kindly let me know if I am wrong in any of my observations about your article. I have raised specific objections in your references on which you based your conclusion and would like to know your specific responses on them.

This is exactly what I meant from my comments that you also seem to agree with me but with different wording. Your quote "For me the Shbbahas(RA) are equally authentic but a degree lesser to the Prophet's Hadiths." However, I also gave the reason for this that Sahaba didn't claim to have the divine revelations that they could relate matters concerning to the creation of adam or "who ruled earth before adam". This kind of knowledge is exclusively from prophet Mohammad or Quran. There is nothing deregoratory about Sahaba in it. So unless it is a hadith of Prophet Mohammad that any Sahaba is referencing from, though I would not dare to say that the Sahaba is wrong, but to say that the hadith might be "weak". Hope this would clear up any misconceptions about me, if you had any. Hope to hear more constructive reply on my previous questions than invoking new ones. May Allah help us all. Regards

Your brother.

AhmadJoyia wrote: ...No, thanks! let me remain fool and unwise (atleast a door open to improve upon myself).

There is no copulsion in religion - at least in Islam.